then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch Or if they desire some time to drincke of it that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus They doe but sucke in the water hastely as though they were afrayde to touch it and that there were in it Crocodiles They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion But I can not allowe but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours or to others a greate deale worse and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue and to whiche they ought to be preferred Shall we not iudge him a foole out of his wyt which will alwayes staye in his Grammer and in the principles and rules of the same and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes and of Philosophie and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde sith that the Grammer yea the Rethoricke whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it And the Logicke also are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had which coulde reade vnto vs but doctrinall of Alexander and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour insomuch that one shall neuer haue done but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne Those some vnto me not to differ much from them For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe no more then the Grammer of Alexander or as Grecismus and Roiolis and the Logicke of Tartaret and of other Sophisters except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende For otherwise whereto shall all their science and eloquence serue but to the Panims and people without God the which is more hurtfull and daungerous then profitable to the common wealth in hym which hath not the feare of God and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them which can come vnto such perfection by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero as that seditious Catiline who was very eloquent But when they doe surmount Demosthenes may not wee rightly â—ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him comparing him vnto a flute which hath but the beak of bil the which is vnprofitable after that the necke is cut off What is there also in these héere but the tongue The which oftentimes hurteth many and profiteth fewe Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God and Iesus Christ his Sauiour and which confesseth him in his rude language and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation to be preferred before all these greate Poets Orators and Philosophers who are altogether ignoraunt and which doe serue but the flesh the world and Sathan Prince of the same Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him and yet worse For the Oxe knoweth his Lord and an Asse his Masters stall as sayth the Prophet the which those here which will bée counted for true Israelits Gods people and Christians wil not acknowledge nor serue hym dooing vnto him so much honour as the Oxe the Asse doe vnto their Masters How dare they esteeme themselues wyse beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God the which onely is the true knowledge for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse in comparison of which all other which are called sciences are but mennes opinions errours and lyinges excepte they haue this for a guyde It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them and meate for to make them haue an appetite sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe and the heauenly Manna to the which they preferre the garlicke onyons the flesh and fishes of Aegypt For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire shall but encrease their griefe the greater And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it they will not tast of it Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I and which can better helpe their disease There are others which differ but a little from these héere and which care not so muche of the language but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first that is that they delite not in reading any good matter graue and whiche toucheth Gods woorde and the health of their soules but vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience And therefore although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language touching the matters of our Religion yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes and can take no taste of them bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate and that they are to precious for them For the â—doriseraunt and sweete flowers smell not so swéete in the hogges noses as the myre and durte For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade â—ookes of bawdry and whoredome For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth and doe speake of earthlye matters and cannot comprehende the celestiall language bycause it is not naturall vnto them Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worlâ—e which doe serue but for seoffing and testing and which haue no other care and applye their studie but to please men and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges then salutary and to delyte the fleshe and the eares more then to edifie the conscience Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner then those whiche haue written before mée For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them not onely bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys kingedomes and Segmories to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD
wée sée it by experience in young children merchants gentlemen damoisels and courtiers who after that they haue tasted of such bookes are cleane out of taste cannot away with all other which are not like vnto them Wherfore I would gladly counsaile such men of so good a minde and spirite which giue themselues to make such bookes and I desire and pray them in the name of Iesus Christe and so much as they loue his honour and theirs to applie that goodly wit and vnderstanding which GOD hath giuen vnto them and that rhetoricke and gift of eloquence wherewith they are indued into some better study matter more profitable to the ende they bée not rebuked and blamed to haue abused the gyft of God against his honour and glorie For that cause I haue purposed to write after a sort which peraduenture will séeme very euilly to agrée with a Theologian to wit vnto one which wil speake of diuine letters But I thincke that when men shal vnderstand my reasons they will take my aduice and deliberation in good parte and I will leaue vnto none any iuste occasion to accuse and rebuke mée in that I rebuke others except that men loue rather to serue to their affections and to vse slaunders then to iudge of thinges accordinge to truth and equitie I haue already touched some reasons which haue induced mée to do that besides yet I wyl adde too many others The first is that I would assay to make those learne by my example which haue a better wyt then I to doe that which I my selfe cannot the whiche thinge ought not to séeme to straunge For a whetstone a whéele doe sharpen well the Iron and maketh it to cut and yet neuerthelesse it is not sharpe nor cutteth of it selfe And at the least wise I indeuour my selfe to shewe vnto those good wittes and spirites which delyght themselues in pleasaunt thinges and which occupie themselues to such vanities and matters in the which they maye exercise their vnderstanding and cloquence more to their honour before GOD and good people and to more greater profit then they doe if they will not apply themselues vnto matters to high and waightie as many haue done as well amonge the olde as the newe And if I my selfe cannot doe that which I would teach vnto others at the leaste wise I will serue them in stéede of a patterne wherein they may finde some thing for to followe Or at the leaste wise the fault y they shal finde in my manner of procéeding wyll admonishe them of the vices that they ought to auoyde in their writinges the which if they finde in my stile or in my inuention or disposition I am sure that they shall not finde in the sentence and substaunce of the matters any thing vnworthy for a Christian man For whatsoeuer thinge that it bée I beléeue that one shall finde nothing which may induce to heresie except those who of themselues doe pretende therevnto and who as the Spiders doe drawe the venym from all places and heresies out of the holy Scriptures which are gyuen vnto vs to kéepe vs from all heresie Although that I doe mocke and iest at the abuses errours heresies superstitions and Idolatryes of the Churche of Antechriste Yet neuerthelesse whosoeuer shal wel marke and consider the matter and shall haue patience to reade all the tenoure of the sentence and of the Argument vnto the ende excepte hée be of a peruerse iudgement shall bée constrayned and compelled to acknowledge and confesse that I doe not mocke or scorne of thinges which are worthy not onely of mockery but also of hatred and abhomination of all mankinde And that I doe not onely vncouer the abuses without shewing by and by the true vse of y thinges nor I doe not condempne the errours and the lyinges without shewinge the trueth that wée muste followe and wherein the faithfull ought to stay themselues And I doe not manifest Antechrist for to auoyde and to flée from him without shewing Iesus Christe for to followe him Wherefore me thinckes that those which haue their eares so delicate and cannot onely abide one lyttle woorde against the Idolatry superstition the great abuses which leade all the worlde into ruine are not rightfull Iudges but of a corrupt and peruerse iudgement For what iudgement is this to heare and sée the name of God the death and passion of Iesus Christ to bée blasphemed dayly so horribly and not to speake a woorde And to bée such an vniust and sharpe rebuker and seuere Iudge agaynst those who onely in scoffing and iesting will admonish rebuke such blasphemers They doe willingly suffer that suche men doe mocke God openly that they doe blaspheme hym without any shame That they doe tourne vpside downe all Religion the truth of Iesus Christ That they make frustrate and of none effect the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion That they doe eate vp and deuoure his poore shéepe before their eyes That they doe leade the poore soules vnto perdition eternall dampnation doe holde all the world in errour Idolatry for to destroie them altogether And cannot we suffer that vnto such mockers blasphemers of God and of men one should onely giue a little holy water of the court and that one should sprinckle them with the least thing of y world onely with some little word or saying or with some pleasant word the which can hurt no man and which is no dishonour vnto God but serueth to discouer the abuses and to bring the mouths of y faithful out of fast with the idolatry and superstition and to manifest vnto them the seducers for the health of their soules I dóe greatly meruaile of those great louers of the honour of Hipocrites Sedusers false Prophets rauishers deuourers of the poore widdowes and fatherlesse mockers contemners blasphemers of the word of God haue so little regard or care of the honour of God of Iesus Christ our Lord whom they sée daily to be crucified before their eyes and to bée spurned and trodden vnderfoote the bloud of his testament and couenaunt and yet dare not speak a woord But which is worse they wil not yet suffer that others vnto whom God hath giuen the meanes and boldneess should speake and rebuke such abuses and sacrileges importable to all good Christian hearts Mée thinkes that such people haue no iust occasion to condempne vs in that behalfe For if they are too wise and doe thincke that such things agrée not with the grauitie of their persons then let them leaue them to be spoken of the fooles sith that as men doe say they haue the priuiledge to speake all things For as for my part I would be very well contented that God would giue me the grace that I might say vnto them as the Apostles sayd vnto the Corinthians Ye are wise and we are fooles for the loue of Christ If
works in vs For nothing pleaseth him but Iesus Christ his welbeloued sonne in whom he deliteth and no workes can be found agréeable but his For there is no goodnesse but in him Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs we must séeke â— borrow it of him And if we will that our works be pleasing vnto God it is necessary that Iesus Christ do them in vs thorow his holy spirite or otherwise the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good nor yet giue vnto them reward Eusebius I doe greately doubt that in magnifiyng so much the grace and mercy of God and the efficacie of the death and passion of Iesus Christe you giue occasion vnto many to doe euill without euer caring to do any good workes For if that men haue once this opinion that they are saued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God and that they cannot merite paradise by their good works what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not serue them no more then the euill Theophilus I do feare moreouer that the doctrin which thou holdest doth induce and leade them vnto that which thou sayest For how many hath there bene who hauing that opinion to satisfie in Purgatorye for their sinnes haue giuen themselues vnto al vices during their life hoping that they will prouide so well to their affaires that for golde and siluer they shal be incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead And so by that meanes they did thinke that it was not néedefull to studye to doe good workes For they did hope to finde in their purse all that that shoulde bée néedefull for theyr saluation But for asmuche as it is a question touchinge good workes whom doest thou thinke can doe them best eyther the seruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulsion who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his master or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde or the sonne who thorow an entier loue towards his father and taketh pleasure in none other thing but to serue and honoure him wel bicause of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath reâ—â—ed and doth receiue daily of him without any seruile feare but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him Eusebius There is no doubt that those whiche serue onely for feare to be punished or for hope of rewarde cannot serue faithfully nor lawfully but are as the seruaunts which serue to please the eye and do good seruice whilest that the master is present notwithstanding they haue no good will towards him Theophilus Yet neuertheles those which do follow the doctrine the which thou holdest are altogether like vnto those here For either they do giue themselues altogether to their pleasures and delites hoping that they will satisfie by money for their sinnes and redéeme themselues or if they studie to doé well they doe it not but thorow feare as a subiect doth serue a Tyraunt fearing â—o fall into his hands or as Merconaries Hirelings not for the loue they haue to god but for the loue they haue to themselues And so by that meanes eyther they do make GOD like vnto a cruel Tyraunt or to a polling Iudge théefe who for money absolueth the euill doers and as a companion of théeues taketh his parte of the hootie with them or els they make themselus god doe worship the workes of their handes sith that by them they do saue themselues and merite Paradise Wherefore they haue no néede of Iesus Christ I demaund of thee which art but a sinful man if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do vnto thée seruice only for y feare that he hath of thée least thou shouldest do vnto him hurt or for hope that he should haue to feare thée better wout which hee would make none accompt of thée nor would not set by thée Eusebius I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin which loueth more his belly theÌ„ me of whoÌ„ he is a friend not of me Theophilus And yet neuertheles if thou dost wel consider the nature of the Hipocrits Pharises who do attribute somuch vnto their workes thou shouldest finde them of such an amitye towardes God for whose loue they doe not that they do but for the loue of theÌ„selues and doe not serue god but after y manner as the beastes do serue men or for the feare that they haue to be beaten or for the nurrishment and foode that they doe receiue But without staying our selues anye longer vppon that pointe let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe sith that thou puttest the Limbe for the one and Purgatory for the other what difference dost thou put betweene those which were in the Limbe and those which were in Purgatory sith that the one and the other according to your doctrine were depriued of the fruition of God I doe greatly feare that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers aswell Patriarkes as Prophets were depriued from such a goodnes wherein did they differ from the dampned And in like manner those whom thou ledgest in Purgatorye what néed haue they of any more greater tormeÌ„t or of any other fire for to torment them And what solace can they haue more then y damned if they were depriued froÌ„ y loves of Paradise and yet besides that to bee deteined in the fire Hillarius But at that time for that there was no Masse nor papistical Priests for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continue a long time in those paines torments And which is more sith that in that time none could enter in Paradise when they had accomplished the time of their paines in Purgatorye whether went they when they departed from thence They could not but departe from one hell for to go into an other that is to say from purgatory to the Limbe where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked fast in the prisons of Purgatory vntill the comming of Iesus Christ Theophilus For to speake the truth I finde no great difference betweene hell and those other two lodgings Eusebius But there is great difference For these here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie from y which the dampned are altogether depriued Theophilus There is then none other difference but that the one are defeined and kept in hell and dampned for euer the others are not but for a time And so your Limbe and Purgatory shal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes who were in this foolish and false opinion that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually but that all those whiche are deteyned in hell after a long space of time shal
by those words that the body of man and all that which is in the fleshe and the vices therein is giuen for meate to the Serpent whom they do call Azazell lord of the fleshe and the bloud and Prince of that world saying that he is also called in Leuiticus the Prince of the deserts Sith then that our body is created and made of the slime and dust of the earth and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the serpent they conclude thereby that our bodies are subiect vnto him and in his power vntill such time as they be sanctified and that the earthly fleshe bee transformed and changed into a spirituall nature And therfore say they that that body hath neede both in his buriall whilest that he is in this earth to be purified sanctified through prayers sacrifices encensements exorcismes coniurations and other ceremonies fit for the same Theophilus Durand in that booke wherein he yeldeth the reason of all the popish ceremonies speaking of the office and burying of the dead allegeth the same reasons and almost nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabalistes Wherein we may well know that the supersticious christians followe more the Iewish and Cabalisticall doctrine then the Christian and Apostolicall doctrine For Durand himselfe is compelled to confesse that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their sinnes which could not then by such things be defaced put out But to the ende that the wicked spirites and theyr presence should be dryuen away And therefore saith hée that in some places they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue with the fire and encense and that the holy water is put there to the eâ—de that the diuell shoulde not come neere for he doth feare it very much Hillarius It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier vnto whom the diuel appeared so terrible that he could not speake for feare And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche Fryer Giles could not arise but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a vessell wherein was holy water wherewith hee sprinkled himselfe and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him Theophilus Behold a good proofe the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Iesus Christe and the faith in him or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith which is the buckler and shield wherewith the Apostle teacheth vs to resist the diuell I do muche meruaile where God hathe commauÌ„ded to driue away the diuell by water and when the true seruants of God haue vsed such weapons aginste the diuell Hillarius At the leastwise they must prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water Theophilus When the witnes of the scripture faileth it must néedes be that those maisters of ceremonies haue then recourse vnto fables But for to returne againe vnto the reasons of Durand he addeth moreouer that in what soeuer place the christians shal be buried out of the churchyarde they ought to set alwayes a crosse at his head For the diuell doth feare very much that signe dareth not to come nigh the place where he seeth the crosse Hillarius That is bicause that the earth which is out of the church yard is not coniured Wherby it hath not so much vertue And therfore in recoÌ„pence they do ad y crosse for to driue away the diuell Theophilus For y same cause do they also coniure y earth of y churchyard For as they do witnes affirme the diuels haue vsed to get theÌ„ vnto the dead bodies and to exercise their cruelty and vengeaunce against them and inforce themselues to do vnto them at the least wise after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whilest they were aliue Furthermore they say that at the day of iudgement our Lorde Iesus Christe will say vnto them that present themselues vnto him that whiche be aunswered vnto the disciples of the Herodians and Pharises when they asked of him the question of the tribute and that they had shewed vnto him the money and Image of Cesar Euen so will he say vnto those whose is this Image what money is this Then those which shal be marked with the crosse shal be knowen to bee good christian money And Iesus Christ will say that whiche is Cesars that is to say vnto the diuell giue it him that which is vnto God giue it to God. Hillarius I am abashed if the diuell dares carrye away those which haue made vppon them the signe of the materiall crosse especially the priestes and moonks whiche are all hyd and couered with them Are not these goodly reasons and most worthy of such diuines Eusebius Yea those are Godly reasons what will you say to the contrary do ye thinke that soe manye wise men which haue bene in the churche haue not well considered the causes wherefore they ought to do that And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good iust reason Theophilus Thou hast heard them and thou hast also the Iewes Cabalists and Panyms for to be the firste authors of them But those dreames are yet more tollerable and worhty of pardon then those here bycause that hauing the braine full of false opinions and inchauntments they feare least the enchauntors Magitians and especially the coniurers and the diuell with them should abuse their bodies thorow their enchauÌ„tments necromances witchcraft But what excuse or coloure can the christians haue who ought to be assured of their saluation in Iesus Christ as wel for the body as for the soule vsing such ceremonies which I may truly call charmes inchauntements magicall supersticions and purifications and not euangelical For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth how will God permit and suffer that that olde serpent shall defile those bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple habit ation of his holy ghost And whiche haue bene consecrated vnto him thorow the bloud of his sonne Iesus Christ and sanctified thorow his spirite haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed after the manner as the enchaunters charmers do their exorcisms coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall crosse more vertue then the consecration of our bodies and soules whiche Iesus Christ the great and soueraigne Byshoppe and eternall Priest hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy spirit and the baptisme that we haue receyued in his name And if we as good christians haue borne the crosse with him that is to say the troubles and aduersities of this world in all patience and haue put all our hope and trust in the merite of his death passion reioysing our selues only in his crosse as the holy apostle saith
the resurrection For then the habite shall be cleane rotten and I do not beléeue that it shall arise with the body and that those which are dead in the same shall arise agayne clothed in a Cordelier For it shall not be then time to make maskes and daunce the morish There is neyther the habite of Fraunces Dominicke nor of any Moonke whatsoeuer he be nor any thing that man can muent and dreame which can serue vs any thing before the face of that great Iudge of the quicke of the dead no more then the Fig leanes serued Adam for to couer him before him but that hée will sée all our filthinesse and abhominations if they hée not couered and hid with the righteousnes and innocencie of Iesus Christ Wherefore if we will appeare clothed and not naked before his maiestie it must be that he himselfe doe cut out and make the apparayle and habite wherewith we must be clothed as he did make vnto Adam and and Eue. And therfore we must follow the counsaile of the Apostle who exhorteth vs to put off the olde man and to put on not y habite of Fraunces or Dominicke but our Lur Lord Iesus Christ For that is an habite which serueth both to the body and to the soule and which delyuereth from the iudgement of god That is the holy water the lights bells sencings and candells which delyuereth our bodies soules from the power of the serpent whose head he hath broken That is the water of lyfe which rayseth vs vnto eternall lyfe which washeth and maketh cleane our consciences That is the true fire of Purgatorye and furnayce in which the olde Adam is melted and made newe and the newe man purged from all his filthynesse and simes Wherefore I doe giue counsell vnto you all that you take good héede that such treasure be not stollen from you and that you trust not to the good déeds which those that be alyue shall doe for you after that you are dead But that you doe putte your trust in Iesus Christ and declare and shew foorth the vertue and efficacie of your fayth thorow charitie and good workes which doe serue to the glory of God to the edyfiyng of his Church and the vtilytie of our neighbour and that you follow the example of the true seruaunts of God and the doctrine which the holy Ghost by them hath giuen vnto vs not the Gentiles and Panims and the false pyophets seducers which haue altogether turned vpside downe the Christian Religion and haue conuerted it not only into Iewishnes but also into panimrie witchcraft sorcertee Eusebius You haue spoken as it pleaseth you but I must néeds auniswere you For if you dispute plead all alone you may easely winne the victory Hillarius We desire none other thing then to heare thy reasons but wée haue forgotten one of the princiyall poynts For we haue not yet demaunded of Thomas the cause wherfore he would go to saint Patricke the which I desire glady to know Thomas I haue determined with my selfe many times to tel you but I desire to heare first what Eusebius can say agaynst you Wherefore I doe thinke it best that forasmuch as all these dayes there is none of vs which is so greatly occupyed but that wée may giue him the next day for his reuenge to aunswere And after that I haue hearde all you I will declare vnto you y meruaylous fantastes which I haue in my head Hillarius I beléeue that there is none of vs but that he is of that opinion Theophilus In stéede where others doe passe awaye the time in playing and other vayne occupations whereoff commeth no profite I finde it better that we vse such recreations which bring no hurt vnto any man but may much serue and profite vs For in so doing we learne the one the other and doe examine the things together the better to knowe how to render a reason of our Law and Religion besides that we learne some honest recreation together the which is better agreeing with our estate then to remayne idle without doing any thing or in losing the time in beholding foolysh playes and maskes or in banketting and in bestowing great expences yet to the hurte and domame of our bodyes and soules or vnto sléeping and as beastes to giue our selues onely vnto pleasures as many doe And although that all wée may bée occupied in other mens affaires eyther publicke or domesticall which woulde better serue for the pursse and for the perticular gayne profite yet neuertheles one cannot be alwaies attētife in great affaires without hauing some intermission and relaxation of the spirite And wée must not be so couetous after the gayne and the perticular profite that at no time we should haue leasure to speake and falke of the things of God and that thorow honest pleasures and recreations we may not refresh our wits and spirites and prepare them agayne to the great affaires to which God hath called vs all according to the grace that we haue receyued of him Thomas There is nothing more certeyn then that which thou sayst and I would not for a great thing but that I had bene with you and to haue heard that which I haue heard Hillarius Wée shall knowe in the ende what tast thou hast had therein Yet neuerthelesse I doe more feare leaste that Eusebius bée more offended then thou But I trust notwithstandinge that the hope that he hath of the victory will giue him courage and boldnesse to come agayne the more willyngly ¶ A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL matters of the first parte of the Dialogues A. ABuses are not yet inough vncouered made knowne fol. 16 Accipe sal sapientae 35. Aduenturers 47. Adams apparell 114. Affectators of languages what affections the Gospel doth permit 67. Alexander the firste inuentiour of holye water 35. Alexandrines 66. Alexander Seuerus Emperour 43. Ambrose and Theodosius 78. Ambition of Alexander 13. Anacharsis 5. Angells the ministers of the faithful 103. Anniuer saries 25. Antipopes and Schisutaticks 88. Apes requisite in the court of Babilon 19. Apes of Iesus Christ 35. Apothegme of Diogenes 60. Applications of Iesus Christ 34 Arithiuettcians and schoole of Arithineticke 42. Aristoxenus 70. The art to learn priests to be sober 39. All artes disciplines the handmaidens of holy letters or bookes 6. Auarice of the Romaines 41. Auernus 90. The authors instituters of funeralls 100. B. Bables of fooles 8. Bay tree 75. Bactrianians and Hireanians 58. Bacchus 33. 13 Babilon taken 93. Bagpipe of Sathau 106. Banner and the crosse 73. Baptisine 41. Baptisines and wasshings of the Iewish people 34. Baptising of bells 73. Bathes 45. Bathing place of the dead 36. Battayle of the diuell agaynst dead bodyes 102. Belles and Images the Priests vicars 71. Bells doe speake all languages 72. Bells to driue away the dwells 73. Bellyes that are shoughtfull 74. Benedictio bladi salis ouerum 42. Benedictio
to render vnto thée the lyke For thou thinckest to heare some greate secrete and thou shalt finde thy selfe deceiued doest thou not know mée yet Hillarius First of all thou art not ignoraunt how that I was neuer verye wise Thou mayst then presume what merchaundise I can bring foorthe of my shoppe and what Doctor contemplatiue I may bée Thou knowest verye well that I am called Thomas Now if I be Thomas of name yet I approch nerer of the nature of my godfather of whom I do beare the name then of his name If hée hath ben incredule and vnbleeuinge insomuch that hée woulde not beleeue the resurrection of Iesus Christ excepte hée dyd see him himselfe with his owne eyes and touche him wyth his hand and except he did put his fingers in his wounds So for my parte I doe doubt and know not well whome I may beleeue But I haue greater occasion to doubte then Sainct Thomas had For hée hearde the promyse which Iesus Christ made of his resurrection of whiche hée had not soâ—iust an occasion to doubte sith that hée had already so many times founde by experience Iesus Christ true in all his words and that he had all his fellowes and companions who with one accorde did tell him howe hée appeared vnto them after his resurrection and that they had seene him and touched him But I whiche am but a poore ideot and very ignoraunt what ought I to thinke and whereto ought I to staye my selfe when I consider the diuersitie of opinions whiche is amonge men touchinge the religyon and namely touching the estate of the dead and of the infernall and celestiall regyons and habitations yea amongest the moste sage and wisest As I haue proued in these dayes amonge your selues who are of as contrarye a sentence the one from the other as the fire and the water Therefore haue I taken in hande the voiage of Sainct Petricke in which as men say one shall see the estate of all the dead the tormentes of the dampned which are in bell and of the soules detayned and kepte in Purgatorye and in the Limbe and in lyke manner the ioyes of Paradise Therefore I doe trust and hope that I may be there informed in the truth of all those things and that after I haue séene them I shal be out of all doubt For I know no more to seeke any other remedies Yet neuerthelesse sithence that I haue beard these matters debated more amply and cléerely and better declared then euer I did before I haue very much lost my fantasie You doe well remember that I sayd that after that I had spoken to the holy father who hath so well disciffered that matter that peradueÌ„ture I should haue gained my voiage without going vnto him I feare very much that before that I depart from you you will cut off all the way and make it shorter For I hope through the helpe of God that we will visite this day all those chambers internall habitations without mouing our selues from hence and before that we depart if that the one and the other of you doe that whereof you brag and vaunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge but to the pure word of god And as for mée if you take it for the Iudge I am wel content to take it for my guide And I am certeine that it will guide mée better then Cyble guided Aeneas Theophilus If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured Dauid who speaketh by experieÌ„ce can certify thée saying Thy woord O Lorde is a lanterne vnto my féete That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bee lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God thy immortall father whome by the same thou shalt heare speake for to put thee out of all doubt Hillarius Ther is also an other point that when we shal haue ended the voiage we shal not go by the gates of dreams as Aeneas or as our holy father whom we haue heard dreame so wel as all such as hee is doe which repose rest themselues in any other bed then vppon the pure word of god For it hath such vertue that whosoeuer resteth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor raue or it bee dreame hee goeth not by the gates of Iuory but by the horne gate which is cleere through the which one may sée as with the eyes in such sort that such dreames are more certeine then that which others doe sée with their eyes as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed shall neuer cease to dreame and wander astray out of the waye And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory which is thicke as the bones are Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all For after the they haue well banketed moisted theÌ„selues with that good Theological wine they haue the spirite of wine that which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them maketh them to enter by the gate of Iuory that is to saye betwéene the téeth and chawes which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine that they do dreame more déeper then the lowest parts of hell and the seate of Lucifer Afterwards they returne beeing rauished in their Poetical furor madnesse as if they were departed all newly and freshe But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of chewing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes as the Organ bellowes so doe they go foorth by the very same gate Thomas Let vs then go in by the other gate and in suche sobrietie that we may know the things as though we saw theÌ„ w our eyes But who shal begin to declare shew it vnto vs mee thinketh that Eusebius maketh himself ready Begin then to knocke cause it to be opened vnto vs Eusebius I will enter first by the olde testament Hillarius But take good heede you lead vs not awrye and to take the one for the other For if thou doe erre and go astray we will direct and leade thee into it againe Eusebius But I will direct and leade you well Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iâ—das Machabens Therefore I tâ—â— trust and hope that I may be there informed in the truth of all those things and that after I haue séene them I shall be out of all doubt For I know no more to séeke any other remedies Yet neuerthelesse sithence that I haue beard these matters debated more emply and cléerely and better declared then euer
I did before I haue very much lost my fantasie You doe well remember that I sayd that after that I had spoken to the holy father who hath so well disciffered that matter that paradueÌ„ture I should haue gained my voiage without going vnto him I feare very much that before that I depart from you you will cut off all the way and make it shorter For I hope through the helpe of God that we will visite this day all those chambers infernall habitations without mouing our selues from hence and before that we depart if that the one and the other of you doe that whereof you brag and baunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge but to the pure word of god And as for mée if you take it for the Iudge I am wel content to take it for my guide And I am certeine that it will guide mée better then Cyble guided Aeneas Theophilus If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured Dauid who speaketh by experieÌ„ce can certify thée saying Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God thy immortall father whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks for to put thée out of all doubt Hillarius Ther is also an other point that when we shal haue ended the voiage we shal not go by the gates of dreams as Aeneas or as our holy father whom we haue heard dreame so wel as all such as hée is doe which repose rest themselues in any other bed then vppon the pure word of god For it hath such vortue that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor rane or if hée dreame hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory but by the horne gate which is cléere through the which one may sée as with the eyes in such sort that such dreames are more certeine then that which others doe sée with their eyes as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed shall neuer cease to dreame and wander astray out of the waye And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory which is thicke as the bones are Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all For after the they haue well banketed moisted theÌ„selues w that good Theological wine they haue the spirite of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them maketh them to enter by the gate of Iuory that is to saye betwéene the téeth and chawes which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine that they do dreame more déeper then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer Afterwards they refurne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor madnesse as if they were departed all newly and freshe But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes as the Organ bellowes so doe they go foorth by the very same gate Thomas Let vs then go in by the other gate and in such fobrietie that we may know the things as though we saw theÌ„ w our eyes But who shal begin to declare shew it vnto vs mée thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready Begin then to knocke cause it to be opened vnto vs Eusebius I will enter first by the olde testament Hillarius But take good héede you lead vs not awrye and totake the one for the other For if thou doe erre and go astray we will direct and leave thée into it againe Eusebius But I will direct and leade you well Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stluer for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead In which place he did well and right For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue it had bene super fluous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God are in good rest ioy he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling to doe the same for those which were slaine that the offence might be forgiuen Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer the number of two thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes if wee accompt them after our money if he had not bene certeine that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead Theophilus Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off and wil engâ—der to vs many questions the which I will propound vnto thée and we will declare them at large one after an other and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you for to proue Purgatory I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees and whether thou do holde them for canonicall or Apocripha Eusebius I hold it but for such as it is that is to say holy Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church For is it not conteined in the Bible Theopilus I do not benie but that it is fastened sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews which alwayes haue bene receiued allowed of all the catholicke Churche without any contradiction Eusebius I am not now abashed though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors sith that you are so shamelesse that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scriptures but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies and do reiect all the other as vnworthy of the spirite of god Is not that to great arrogancie to make the spirite of God his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement Thou mayst wel perceiue Thomas that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued when they are constrayned to refuse
olde and new Testament then betwéene the liuing which haue bene both in the one and in the other Thou canst not deny 〈◊〉 but that the Church of Iesus Christ hath begun thence the creation of the world the first that euer was last righteous the which shal so continue vnto the ende conclusion of the world shall continue eternally Eusebius I do confesse no lesse Theophilus Iâ— followeth by the same reason that the Church of the patriarches prophets which haue ben before the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ is none other but the very same of his Apostles Euangelists Disciples and that the faithfull of the people of Israel and those of the christian people are but one people one church For they had one very God one very Christ and the very promises one very spirit of faith and hauâ— eaten of one manner of spirituall meate and did all drinke of one manner of spiritual drinke with vs as the Apostle witnesseth Eusebius Then there shall be no difference betwéene the auncient Fathers and vs To what ende then serued the comming of Iesus Christ Theophilus I haue not yet sayde so For I doe finde great difference Eusebius What Theophilus As great as is betwéene a starre and the Sunne from the day breake and dawning to hye none betwéene the shadow and the body betwéene the Image and the truth betwéene the thing promised and the thing giuen Eusebius Thou wilt yet come vnto my matter For it séemeth by those wordes that thou leauest to the auncientes but the shadowes and figures and that thou giuest vnto vs the body and the thing figured There is then great difference Theophilus Yet thou vnderstandest me not very well I doe not denye but that they had all that which wée haue but not so cléerely so excellently and so gloriously nor in such aboundaunce of glory and maiestie For by the comming of Iesus Christ the knowledge of God and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath bene more greater and more ample then before not onely in the land of Canaan to the people of Israel but in all landes countries nations and the spirit of God with all his giftes graces and riches hath bene distributed in more greater aboundaunce efficacie vertue magnificence then euer it was Eusebius That which thou speakest off toucheth not yet but to the liuing which haue liued as well vnder the olde as the new testament But what difference doest thou put betwéene the liuing and the dead vnder the one and the other Theophilus That should bée too great temeritie and rashnesse in vs to define of the estate of the dead and to affirme any other thing then that which standeth manifestly vnto vs by the holy Scriptures Yet neuerthelesse because that in the same there are some places which giue light vnto vs of that same I will not make it any greate repugnaunce to putte in that matter such certeine difference betwéene them as wée haue put betwne the liuing Eusebius It séemeth then that thou wouldest say that the gates of Paradise were no lesse open before the death and passion of Iesus Christ then afterwardes And that there was none other difference betwéene the heauenly ioy and fruition of the auncient fathers and of the Christians that are deade saying that nowe all haue it more ample and more excellent Theophilus As for my part there where I haue not the scripture well expressed I doe leaue vnto euery one his frée iudgement so that it be ruled by the worde of god Touching my part I will expounde vnto thée that that I can drawe comprehend out of the holy scriptures by the which it is sufficiently made knowen vnto vs that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath béene immolated and offered vpon the Crosse for to satisfie the righteousnesse of God for vs at the time which was ordeined him of the father yet hath he béene neâ—erthelesse killed and offered in the presence of God from the beginning of the worlde For it is written Iesus Christ was yesterday and to day and the same contynueth for euer By those wordes the Apostle comprehendeth all the tyme past present and to come To which Iesus Christ himselfe had-regarde when he saide Abraham did sée my dayes and reioyced For although that in respect of vs he was crucyfied in the fulnesse of time in those latter dayes yet neuerthelesse in the presence of God he hath béene aâ—â—ayes and his sacrifice hath béene eternally presented vnto him For with God there is up difference of times as in vs bicause that all thinges are present to him and that he is aboue and out of the same For a thousande yeares before him are to him but as one day Wherefore in the same sort as the death and passion of Iesus Christe serueth nowe to vs which beleeue that he hath béene crucified for vs although that he hangeth no more in the crosse so I holde it for certeine that it profiteth those which liued before that he was cruciâ—â—ed and haue beléeued that he ought to come and dye for them euen as we beléeue that he is come and that he is deade for vs. Eusebius To what ende hath serued then his comming Theophilus Doest thou yet not vnderstande it If a man were detayned and kept in prison for certeine debt that he oweth and that he hath a certeine friend who commeth to be his suertie and to pledge him body for body and goods for goods and that the creditor prince receiueth alloweth him for his pledge suertie and hostage shall not the prisoner be deliuered by meanes of that suertie But yet neuerthelesse vpon such condition that either he or his suertye doe pay and satisfie for him at the time as shal be appointed him After the same manner hath God done with those good auncyent fathers For sithenâ—e that he made the promise vnto Adam of the séede of the woman which shoulde breake the serpents head the which afterwardes he hath râ—â—â—â—rated and confirmed more amply and more clearely vnto Abraham Iacob Dauid and to all the other patrâ—arkâ—â— and celebrated by all his Prophetes and by all the sacrifices oblations figures and ceremonyes commaunded in bys lawe Iesus Christ offred himselfe to God his father for to bee our pledge and suertye and gaue himselfe to him as a pledge for all those which haue beléeued in his promises made of him But vpon such condition that he being very and true God according to the good pleasure of the father for to satisfie his will and his righteousnesse tooke vpon him our flesh and presented himselfe before his iudgement at the time as by his prouidence was constituted and appointed him for to satisfie in our stéede Nowe sith y Iesus Christ hath once aunswered for his bretheren beléeuing in him the heauenly father hath excepted it aswell as though he had alreadie satisfied it as afterwardes
he hath done it in his time Eusebius Doest thou think that there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory Theophilus To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things I will propounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off Mark then first the witnesse of the Apostle which saith writting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ that all those there hauing obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection without vs He saith not that they haue altogether receiued the promise For it was made first of all to them But he vnderstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same of which they haue not béene altogether depriued But they haue not had it so perfectly as we haue it nowe For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending he signifieth then that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie But the perfection was not yet nor shal be vntill the consuÌ„mation and restoring of all things For the terme of consuÌ„mation and perfection are relatiues the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning To which agréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church vnto whome the Lorde aunswered that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of their bretheren were fulfilled Eusebius make me to vnderstand that more clearely Theophilus Assone as we bâ—gin to knowe God in this worlde and to beléeue in Iesus Christ we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come But we haue not yet perfect ioy Yet neuerthelesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall goodnesse we grow from day to day from knowledge to knowledge from faith to faith from good to be better vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man to the fulnesse of Christ to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse Now if alreadie in this vale of misery our soule being charged with this terrestiall body shut vp and kept in the same as in a darke prison altogether wrapped in miseries sinnes and maledictions receiueth such consolation and ioy there is no doubt but that after that it is deliuered from that prison and captiâ—â—tie and hath put of all earthly corruption it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide I desâ—re to be losed and to be with Christ which thing is to â—e best of all And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir â—eâ—iâ—â—tie and perfect glorie vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie And that it be againe vnited wiâ—h it and seâ— God face to face and knowe him as we haue béene knowâ—â— of him then when he shal haue vanquished all things and shal be all in all For it is not yet appeared what we shal be but our life is hid in Iesus Christ Euen as then those which doe nowe depart out of this life haue not yet such ioy as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall appeare in glorie â—or to iudge all flesh when we shall all arise so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke that the auncient fathers which haue béene before the commâ—ng of Iesus Christ haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie before â—is resurrection as afterwarde For if the Angels themselues which alwayes doe behold the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righteous we must not doubt but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same howe great and admirable the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ sith that the angels themselues doâ— receiuâ— so great profite and increase in all goodnesse Thomas By what place of the holy scripture caâ—st thou proue that which thou speakest Theophilus They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter speaking of that matter saith that of the Prophets auncyent fathers that it hath béene reuealed vnto them y not to them selues but vnto vs they should administer the things the which saith he nowe are declared vnto you by them which haue declared the gospell by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde The Angelâ— had not that desire but that they did féele a greate goodnesse But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed to the health of men which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them neither are we also come therevnto For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which retâ—urneth vnto God also without all doubt sith that aboâ—e all things they do procure our helth and saluation it cannot be but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish Forasmuch then as their â—â—â—yâ—itie is ioyned with ours it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect For it is written expresly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde And the Apostle affirmeth that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodnesse of God the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges and princes in Christ and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe Therefore it is written that thorowe him all thinges are repaired and restored both in heauen and in earth Wherein the scripture teacheth vs that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues which had no sinne For euen as the fâ—ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them subiect vnto malediction with him so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also looâ—â—â—g for their redemption and deliuerance the which is ioyned together with his Nowe if the Angells cannot be
greatest â—othsmiths y euer was in the world For ther was neuer none as farre as I can see which hath made and counterfaited more keyes nor which hath made them to agrée better to all locks Hillarius The experience doth witnesse it Theophilus I do think yet vpon an other reason against y of Eusebius If thou wilt limit y ministry of Saint Peter and of the Apostles within the compasse of heauen and wilt not suffer their power to bée stretched foorth euen to the confins and ende of Purgatorye at the least thou shalt not denye mée but that there be some Popes Cardinalls Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes in Purgatory 〈◊〉 thou wilt say y theâ— do â—o all straight way into paradise or into 〈◊〉 Now if they be in Purgatory wherefore â—â—e ye not suffer them to haue that office in the places where they are present Eusebius Bicause for that they are sinners as others are and subiect vnto one iudgement they are of the same condition as the others and they cannot giue them that whereoff they themselues haue néede and cannot haue it for them Furthermore as soone as they are dead they are depriued from that office Hillarius I haue two reasons for to beate downe thy aunswere The first is that I am abashed that the Pope and his doe attribute vnto themselues the power to pardon all sinnes how great and wicked soeuer they bée yea all Sodomy and if néede hée the sinne against the holy Ghost notwithstanding that it bée irrâ—missible and doe giue bulâ— and pardons for all so that one doe bring them money and that they haue also power to pardon the veâ—â—all sinnes in Purgatory For according to your own doctrine none are there deteined and kept but for the veniall sinnes For the mortall sinnes haue no purgation in the other world but they must bee punished in hell And as to that that thou sayest that they are sinners and subiect to the same paines in Purgatory so are they in this worlde and leaue not off therefore to absolue themselues the one to the other although they shoulde haue killed Father and Mother and so make themselues as white as the Collyers Furthermore you doe call the impression of your Creame and holy Oile with whiche you doe anointe the Pristes when they doe take their orders Charector indelibilis that is to saye a marke and a signe which cannot be put out nor defaced If it be so the Pâ—iestes dooe abide and remaine alwayes Pristes although they be dead For you will not confesse that that impression and marke is onely done vnto the bodye But you doe affirme that it penitrateth and pearceth euen to the soule of which it can neuer be defaced nor abolyshed yet neuerthelesse thou knowest better then I. Theophilus They doe attribute vnto it such vertue that they doe affirme for certâ—ine that a prâ—est notwithstanding that he be an heriticke or an apostate or desgraded yet neuerthelesse be shall haue power alwayes to consecrate the body of God as well as others if he doe pronounce the sacramentall wordes vppon the hoast with the intencion to consecrate Hillarius Beholde yet to confirme better my purpose I do not doubt for my parte but that that Character is the marke wherewith is marked the conscience of those which shall giue héede vnto spirits of errour and deuilish doctrine and which are Apostates of the faith according to the prophecie of saint Paul. That is the marke of the great whore of Babylon without which one cannot sell nor buy nor haue any place in the Popish Church That is a marke cleane contrary vnto that which the Angell printed in the foreheads of the elect of god Nowe sith that the Apostles of Iesus Christ and the true bishoppes and priests which by them were ordayned haue not had that Cautor that is to say Marke I had thought to haue said Charecter I am not abashed if they haue not such power in the other worlde as the Pope hath in the same and in this But it is an other thing of him and of his which do departe out of this worlde with this Cauter I doe beguile my selfe alwayes I doe say with that Charâ—â—ter which they do beare alwayes with them Wherfore they ought to haue no lesser power there then here And y same I wil proue by y example of Frier Rogers a Câ—rdelier which is recyted in the booke of the conformities of saint Fraunces It is there written that after that he was deade he appeared vnto a certeine woman who confessed vnto him all hir sinnes hée gaue hir obsolution If hâ— being deade had the power to come to heare the confession of the lyuing and to absolue them wherefore shall not his other compagnions béeinge deade haue and chiefely the Popes and Byshoppes who haue ordained them and confirmed them as much power among the dead Furthermore if according to the witnesse of your Doctors others may satisfie for vs not onely during our lyfe but also after that we be dead wherfore cannot we after that we be dead satisfie for our selues and to cause Masses to be song in Purgatory sith that there are so many Priest's Popes and Bishops for to doe it What thinkest thou Thomas Thomas Thou sayest well But I thinke that they cannot haue their hoasts and singing cakes Hillarius Yet they had neuerthelesse fire inough for to séethe or bake their gods Thomas If it be so as they say there is too much And therefore I thinke that they cannot haue hoasts chalyces aulters nor vestements For the fire will schorch and consume it all Hillarius Thou makest a good reason But by that compt how can the bulls and pardons of the Pope be kept and preserued from the fire which are sent thether by hole cart loades which some do cause to be buried with them for to cary them thether sith that they are but paper and parchment Asmuch may we say of the rule and habite of Saint Fraunces What sayest thou Theophilus Theophilus There is yet an other poynt If they will say that those which are in Purgatory can no more merite neyther for themselues nor for others they cannot say the lyke without speaking agaynst the doctrine which they haue giuen vs of the saints which are in Paradise For they doe affirme that they pray vnto God for vs that they are our intercessors aduocates towards him and that in séeing God which séeth all things they doe see all as in a Mirrour or looking glasse If they doe pray for vs which are yet in this lyfe bicause of the great loue and charitie that they haue towards vs wherefore do they not also willyngly pray for their bretheren deteyned and kept in the fire of Purgatory For they shoulde haue a greate deale more reason to doe that if they had anye care or charge of menne And that for manye causes First that the estate and condition of
full resolution they will fall vppon this sence Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh body and humanitie yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite that is to say by his eternall vertue and diuine power by the which hee is not onely risen from death but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh and hath tourned death into lyfe quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person he declared that he is so dead that there is no lyfe but in his death and that none can lyue but by him and that he is not onely to day but euerlasting and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells the proude and peruerse spirits oppressed with wicked spirites which were not vnder their kéeping but did sléepe not thinking on the iudgement of god vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them as he doth yet at this present by that same spyrite by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe. Hillarius It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated far fetched neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter Theophilus Bicause that the place is obscure hard I dare not to define pronounce of it rashly But I would gladly put forth these expositions to that ende you may iudge of theÌ„ for to awake the spirits for to finde out some better thing Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest that is to say that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie vertu of Iesus Christ of his death and passion witnesseth that it was so great that the lyuing haue not onely felt perceiued it but the dead also vnto whom it is come But in what manner or after what sort How is it communicated vnto vs and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe and hath communicated vnto vs his vertue so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade both during their lyse and after their death For it is sayde of Abraham that he did sée the day of the Lord and reioyced If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice wée cannot doubt but that he and all the others which were in his bosome haue felte it more fully when he did manifest himselfe more fully By this we may well vnderstand whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie that it goeth vnto the dead what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ sith that none can do it but he himself by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth towards the dead such as is among the lyuing but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs but in their maner and such as apperteineth vnto them euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse but by an other meane then vnto vs bicause that their condition was contrary We must not then dreame out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell and a preaching such as wée haue But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen for to make vs feele his vertue so it is not necessary to descend into hell For the vertue of his spirite is such that it filleth heauen and earth and is spread abrode euery where Hillarius As I thinke our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure wheÌ„ they setled themselues to dispute whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell Amongest the which some of them are founde to bée of opinion that he did Theophilus If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise and how Iesus Christ descended into hell when his soule was sorrowfull and in anguish euen vnto the death and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes insomuch that he was stroken beaten of God hath suffered death after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise in which it was for to goe into hell For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand which haue receiued consolation and vnto those of the reprobate declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending Eusebius To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe of which it is also spoken in Zachery saying I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water Theophilus By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon he will deliuer his people that are captiue kept in the bottom of all miseries By the prisoners he vnderstandeh his people that bée in captiâ—itie by y euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie a goulse and bottome of all miserye from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth yea yet without water in which one cannot swimme to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie and the grace and mercy of God towardes them When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude bondage of the law vnder those shadows figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in
respect of those which haue receiued the light of the gospell But we must not therefore dreame that the bosome of Abraham was a prison or a Castle as we haue alredy declared in the other disputacion But we must be aduised know that those things are spoken by a comparison as we haue already declared the examples Thomas It séemeth that Saint Peter speaketh not but of the reprobate For after that hée hath spoken of those spirits which wer in prison he addeth which late or sometune were rebells Theophilus He speaketh generally of all For euen as the Gospell is a sweete sauour of lyfe to lyfe vnto those which are saued and a sauour of death to death vnto those that perish so the death of Iesus Christ bringeth a great reioycing both to the Angells and to all the blessed spirits and more greater confusion and grieuous dampnation vnto the wicked and reprobate But after that he spake generally of the spirits he pursued not all the two parts but stayed himselfe onely to the disobedient and rebells bicause that he is fallen into that matter speaking of afflictions Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull he sâ—ayed to declare vnto them the vertue which Iesus Christ hath for to saue his as he saued Noe and his family in the Arke and for to punish the wicked and persecutors as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud For that cause he stayed to declare the Iudgement of god as in the chapter following saying that Iesus Christ shall Iudge the quicke and the dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should bée iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before God in the spirite Thomas By that which thou sayest thou doest declare vnto vs that that place concludeth not that ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory then such which thou hast shewed vnto vs from the beginning But what sayest thou touching the preaching of the which we haue spoken which ought to be done vnto the spirits after this lyfe Theophilus First of all as touching those which are departed out of this world without hauing one grayne of that seede of the feare of God but haue altogether resisted his spirite and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vnto them or at the preaching of his gospell we cannot leaue vnto them any preaching nor any other remedy after their death for their saluation except wée wil fall into the error of the Origenists and Anabaptists For it is written He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned But if it be a question of the elect which haue had alredy in this world some grain of the seede of God which haue walked in his feare although that they haue bene yet wrapped in many errors and darkenesse there is an other consideration Not that I doe vnderstand that the gospell is preached vnto them after they are departed out of this lyfe otherwise saying that they shall haue more ful knowledge of that that they haue onely héere known as amongst the midst of darkenesse For if they be the sonnes of God the seede of god which is in them shall saue them As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter he had not perfect knowledge of Iesus Christ Hée was yet a Panim but he was not therefore altogether without the seede of the feare of GOD nor without some beginning of fayth obscure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST Or otherwise his prayers and almes deedes shoulde not haue bene approued of God whome one cannot please without fayth If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vnto him I do not thinke therefore that he had ben altogether reiected and forsaken of God and that that knowledge sufficed him not to saluation or that he had not giuen himselfe more fully to be knowne of him either by some diuine inspiration or by some other meanes such as it pleaseth him yea in the Article of the death or at his last gaspe rather then to suffer him to perish As we may presume as wel of the Iewes as of the Panims who before the comming and manifestation of Iesus Christ in the flesh had the lawe of God written in their heartes notwithstanding that they haue not had altogether so full knowledge of Iesus Christ as we haue at this present For although that the knowledge of Iesus Christ be vnto all men necessary to saluation it followeth not therefore that none can be saued if it be not full and perfect in him For who euer had in this world so full knowledge of him and a faith so perfect that he had nothing to say There was neuer such a one found in this world It sufficeth then that that knowledge faith hath taken roote in vs that we do trauaile as much as we can possible to augment and increase it And afterwards when we shall doe our endeuour as much as we can the Lord which hath begun his worke in vs will bring it to passe and will supply and recompense thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we haue receiued of him euen as he doth of our workes which are all imperfect bicause of the imperfection of our faith so that ther be not dispising and to great negligence in vs which cannot be but to the reprobate Euen then as GOD by his great mercye supporteth the imperfection of our fayth and ceaseth nor leaueth off to receiue vs for his children so that the seede and the roote of the same be quickened in vs so I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witnesse of the holy Scripture that any should haue iust occasion to hope for saluation after this lyfe which from the same shall bée departed without any knowledge of God of Iesus Christ his sonne Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vnto me do leaue the rest with the secrete iudgements of God which are hid from vs and couered But yet neuerthelesse I think that it is alwayes most sure to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth whilest that wée be in this worlde that wee may haue so much as is néedfull for our saluation and that our despising be not any cause vnto vs of dampnation And if wée doe our endeuour wee are very sure that the Lorde will not faile vs and that he will not hide himselfe or withdrawe himselfe from vs if wée doe seeke him and desire to approch and come vnto him For it is impossible that hee wil hide himselfe from those whom he hath chosen whoÌ„ he hath purposed to glorifie and to make them blessed by his knowledge And notwithstanding that wée haue not all of vs so great and high knowledge of him nor so many of his giâ—tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apostles yet