not different of him selfe and abiding in a particular man he shall alwayes acknowledge the Scripture that comes of him and which beares his markes And touching the second demaund we say also that the same spirite being in a third man shal acknowledge that aswell the woorde as the Reuelation are of him by the reasons alledged that is that Gods spirite in diuers persones is alwayes equal and like to himselfe Obiection This dothe not satisfie the firste Question proponed which conteined a demaunde how any man can iudge in him selfe that he hath the holy spirit to discerne and iudge a boke to be of the holy Scripture and an other not to be but Apocryphall and lastly how he can make demonstration to an other that he is possessed with this inspiration of God. Aunswere The spirite of God is called a seale in the Scripture for that the firste effecte he bringes forthe in the heart of him to whom he is communicated is to assure him of his presence And to assure a second of the Reuelation which we haue receiued of Gods spirite it is also easie for that the spirite of God which openeth the mouth of one to speake openeth also the eares of an other to heare his woorde the heart to beléeue him and himselfe to persuade it so that betwéene the maister and disciple the Doctor and the hearer being bothe furnished and lightened by Gods spirite there is also a mutuall concorde to knowe one an other Obiection Suche a certaintie is a great incertaintie neither is there any of what secte so euer he be who doth not assure him selfe to haue the holy spirite and truthe of his side which is a fond presumption howe may a man distinguishe a presumption from a true inspiration Aunswere S. Iohn Chrysostome saith that in vaine doth a man vaūte himselfe to haue the spirite withoute the woorde which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge all matters that the heretikes and others would propounde vnder the authoritie and title of Gods spirite For as by this spirite we knowe the true sense of the woord euen so do we discerne mutually by the woord who they be that haue the spirite of God and who not Obiection This is no Aunswere to the Demaunde for there is no Question to examine the doctrine by the woord but to know that it be the woorde of God by whiche we wil examine the doctrine and approue it and how a man shall iudge assuredly that he hath a Reuelation of the Lord and that it be Gods woorde Aunsvvere If he be one of the faithfull he may iudge by Gods spirite that is in him as in him that telles it him And if he be of the vnfaithfull it is as impossible that he iudge as a blinde man to discerne coloures laid afore him bicause as S Paule saith it is by the spirite of God by whom we knowe and iudge the things that are of God. Obiection This Aunswere is yet insufficient to the Question produced wherof let the iudgement rest among the hearers and Readers But now wée put foorth an other demaund whether wee are certaine by Gods woorde that the Lord assistes his Churche and will assiste it vntill the consummation of the worlde And whether there be not more assurance to staie vpon the consentes and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonical Bookes of the holy Scripture and the distinction of the same from the Apocryphall than to rest vpon singular iudgement esteeming it to be an inwarde inspiration of the whiche there can be no proofe made but only by opinion that wee haue the holy sprite Aunswere The Doctors confuse the opinions of the fantastical sort with the testimonies and Reuelations of the Holy Sprite notwithstanding there is asmuch distinction betwene them two as from heauen to earth And touching the consente of the Churche supposed to procéede of the Sprite of God it is infallible and of no lesse certaintie than the particulare Reuelations of Esay and other Prophetes And because both the one and the other procéede of one Authour whiche is the Sprite of Truth the certeintie of the Reuelations of Gods Sprite made to al the Church in generall to euery particular member of the same conteine one self poyse weight Obiection The Ministers cannot conceale from the Catholikes or others but that they are fantastike as making no proofe of the Reuelation of the Holy Sprite made to them no more than other sectes doo And touching that pointe supposed that it proceedes of Gods sprit they seeme to dout of the assistance of the Holy sprite in Gods Church which as S Paule saith Est columna firmamentum Veritatis Wherein is to be wel considered that they hold them more certaine of the assistaunce of the Lorde in particulare than in the vniuersall Church by which the conclusion may folowe that aswel the particular faithful can neuer straie as also that he is a piller of truth no lesse than the vniuersal Churche besides in laying the particular Reuelations in equal ballaunce weight with the iudgement of the Church they doo openly impugne their confession of faith in the fourth Article wher it is thus written Wée know these Bookes to be Canonical a most certaine rule of our faith not so much by the common accord consent of the Church as the testimonies and inward persuasion of the holy sprite who makes vs discerne them from the other ecclesiastical Bookes By the said Article it is seene howe muche they doo attribute to them selues more than to the whole vniuersal Church which Article they doo now resist giuing asmuch to the one as to the other yea in the confession of faithe lastly printed the saide Article was taken awaye as appeareth by that whiche this daye Spyna hathe broughte hither printed at Geneua 1564. by whiche may be séene that they retracte them selues as confessing that it behooues more te staie vpon the common consents of the church than vpon particulare the same being reasonable séeing the holy sprite is promised to the vniuersal Churche and not to euery particulars man. Aunswere If the Ministers may be thoughte fantasticke notwithstanding they haue Gods woorde with better proofe the Doctors maie be holden such in matters which they mainteine and defende both without against Gods woorde touching the seconde pointe reprouing the Ministers that they dout of the assistaunce of the sprite of God to the Church your aunswere is that the dout is not there but to know which is the true Church For the third point where the Doctors allege that it maie be inferred that particular menne cannot erre the consequence is nothing woorthe bicause the Sprite of God maye sommetime departe from menne in whiche case they maye faile and erre as Dauid confesseth did happen to him To the fourthe pointe the Ministers aunswere that they impugne not in any sorte the Article alleaged of their confession bicause the Aunswere
conteined comparison of two Reuelations of the spirite the one made to the body and the other to the members which they maintaine to be of equal value touching the certaintie and in the confession is mention made of the Reuelation of Gods spirite which causeth the consent of the Churche which foloweth thereof as the effecte And if it be so that the cause being preferred afore his effect there is greate reason that the Reuelation of the spirite of God compared with the consent of the Churche should be preferred afore it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the cōtrarietie which they pretend in Confessions Printed in diuers seasons and by sundrie Printers they shall be Aunswered when their pleasure is to debate the Articles particularly Question Where they made a doubt of the true Church euen the like may be said of the Reuelations pretēded of Gods spirit to particular men whom also we may dout whether they be members of the Church or not Touching the other point where they denie to impugne the fourthe Article of their Confession there séemes no small contradiction as comparing the particular Reuelation with the consent of the church as appeareth by their Aunswere it séemes also to serue to small purpose where they alledge the Reuelation to be the cause of the consent preferring it afore the same as the cause afore the effecte the same séeming as who should say the Reuelation is to be preferred afore the word of God and holy scripture for it is moste certaine that the Reuelation goeth before the woorde and scripture And as it appeares in the texte of the Confession which may be easily iudged the Authors of the same speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two Reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their spirite than that which is of the iudgemēt of the churche Touching the other pointe that particulare men may sometimes faile when Gods spirite leaues them we may conclude by that we ought not to rest infallibly vpon the inspirations pretended of particulare men bicause it may be douted whether they be forsaken of Gods spirite or not which we can not do of the Church therefore it is more assured to stay vpon the Churche infallibly gouerned by the holy spirite than vpon the priuate pretended inspirations which the Catholikes do not folowing their priuate iudgement and therfore can not be estéemed fantastike but rather such are guiltie of that name who prefer their proper iudgement which they couer with the title of particulare inspiration The Doctors require a texte of the Scripture by the which the holy spirite is promised to euery particulare person as to the vniuersal church therby to know how to iudge and discerne what be the scriptures Aunsvvere Touching the first pointe as in déede we do not approue all churches to be true which are so said euen so we allowe not for faithfull suche as vaunt them selues to be so For the second the comparison of the Doctoures is improper in this pointe as who should say the Reuelation is to be preferred afore the woorde of god c. Bicause Gods worde and all the writings aswel of the Prophetes as Apostles are as so many Reuelations of Gods spirite and that betweene the one and the other there is no more difference than betweene genus and species Touching the Article that the Reuelation goeth before the scripture we muste distinguishe betwéene the Reuelations made to the Prophets before they committed them to writing and those which are made to them that read their writings to vnderstande them For the first we confesse they goe before the scripture and for the seconde we say they folowe it Touching the third Article the ministers Aunswere that it is easie to iudge whether Gods spirite assist a particulare man or whether he be drawne from him by the matters he propoundes when they be conferred with Gods woorde and censured by the rules of the same as is saide Touching their demaunde it were a long and weary encomber to alleage all the places where it is written that Gods spirite is communicated to the chosen the better to knowe and discerne the things that are of God in Esay 5◠the Lord promiseth to poure his spirite vppon the faithfull as water vpon the earthe Likewise in Ioel. 2 Ieremie 34. in the first Catholike of S. Iohn 2. vnder the name of vnction and many other places Obiection These places make no proofe at all that the spirite was promised to all to iudge of the Doctrine Other wayes euen women and all artificers that were faithfull mighte iudge of the Doctrine as the Prophetes and Apostles of the contrary S. Paule saithe Numquid omnes Propheta c. He saithe expressely that discretion of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the scriptures and be giftes not common to all the faithfull but particulare to some Aunswere The consequence which the Doctors make is nothing woorthe bicause Gods spirite oftentimes is communicated more aboundantly to some than to others and that also some be better exercised in the scriptures than others Touching the place of S. Paule 1. Corinth 12. the ministers say it makes nothing against them bicause the spirite of Prophecie and the spirite of discretion be giftes differing as appeares by the discourse of the Apostle in the same Chapter The second day of disputation being VVednesday the tenth of Iuly THe Doctors required that their Protestation made the day before might be Inregistred which was this that they would not enter into disputation of things receiued into the vniuersall Churche since the Apostles till our time decided and already determined by the holy Councels Ecumenike and general holding them most certaine and vndouted and that all Doctrine to the contrary was false Onely they were ready according to the holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and the Ladie of Buillon his daughter to make knowne by the expresse woorde of God interpreted by the saide vniuersall Churche and Councels that their Doctrine is holy and conducible to saluation in which Doctrine as the saide Ladie had bene first instructed so all instruction ministred to her in the contrary is hurtful and damnable And lastly that this conference might be in manner of instruction and not a Disputation In like sorte the Ministers protested that they did not ioyne in assemblie with the Doctoures for any doubte they had that all that was centained in their Confession of faith was not certaine and true and grounded vpon Gods woord as appeareth by the places of Scripture noted in the Margent of the sayde Confession beléeuing that what so euer is contrary is damnable and to be reiected thoughe euen an Aungell of heauen would propone it And touching themselues they came not thither to be instructed in other Doctrine than that which they folowe and which they haue learned of Iesus Christe whome they acknowledge as the only maister and teacher of the churche Héere the Lorde of
It is easie to iudge whether the ende of the doctrine which is propownded stretch to establishe and exalt the honor and glorie of God as if the same mooue exhortations to men to withdrawe whollie their trust from creatures and reappose and lay it altogyther vpon God to haue recourse to hym in their necessities to depende vpon his prouidence in all their transitorie affayres and lastly to prayse hym with thankesgyuing for all the benefits they haue which being presupposed there is no doubt that the doctrine including this purpose and ende is not good and to be receyued touching the obiection that our former aunswere fell from the boundes of the first proposition it séemes not so bicause the first matter propownded tended to knowe what was the grounde of our religion to the which it was aunswered that it was the wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question This aunswere is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptistes yea and to the Deistes who aboue the reast professe to searche the glorie of God and what else the aunswere conteynes and generally all men vsing this spéech coulde not but erre in all the articles of the Créede except the first But to cut of this circumstance of spéeche and returne to the point we thinke it not lawfull to vse a foundation of the scripture afore it be knowne and assured that it is the holye scripture and that there is difference betwéene the bookes of the same and also afore it be manifest that I haue a particuler inspiration of the holye spirite and that such a priuate breathing of the holy ghost be a sufficient ground of religion Aunswere The Deistes or other heretikes can not serue their turne with the sayde aunswere for the confirmation of their errors bicause the Deistes denying Iesus Christ can not glorifie God seing that to glorifie the father it is néedefull first to knowe and glorifie the sonne and euen so the other heretikes who notknowing the truth nor by consequent Iesus Christ whichis the waye the lyfe and the truth muste néedes be ignoraunt of God and howe to glorifie hym And where our aunswere is noted superfluous or to wander indecently we lay our selues to be measured and iudged by the conference of the demaunde and aunswere And touching the last point of the obiection that the reuelation which a priuate man sayth he hath of the spirite of God is to hym as a grounde of religion that is without the sense wordes of our aunswere which stretched onely to laye the foundation of true religion vpon the doctrine of the Prophetes and Apostles of whose truth all the church generally and euerie particuler member of the same are assured by the testimonie and inwarde reuelation of the spirite of God. Question All that is here spoken must be added to the other aunswere afore it be good and it séemes that the aunswere contaynes but matter of mockerie For it is most certaine that when all truth is in the doctrine of one man he is no more wicked or an heretike But we search still the beginning of truth and what it ought to be And touching the replye denying that the particuler reuelation is the ground of religion there is no great difference For if the particuler reuelation be a sufficient grounde for euery one to know that which is of the Apostles and Prophets it is by consequent the foundation of religion as being the grounde to know vpon what euerie particuler man knoweth and sayth his religion is founded Aunswere We framed our aunsweres according to the nature and maner of the demaunds by which appeares no likelihoode of disposition to scoffe or iest séeing that in such a conference as this is where is question to searche the honor and glory of God mockerie could not be without impietie But touching reuelation to be like to the scripture which is the grounde of religion we denie it and affirme them to be things different notwithstanding their coniunction as following one an other according as it is written in Esay Beholde my allyance with them sayth the Lorde my spirite which is in thee the wordes which I haue breathed into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy lippes nor from the mouth of thy seede and so as followeth by which maye be iudged the distinction that the Prophet vseth betwéene the reuelation of the holy spirite and the worde Question I leaue for conclusion of this conference euerye one to iudge of the conueniencie or agréement of the aunsweres and obiections And touching the wordes alledged out of Esay of the vnitie of the worde and holy spirite they be but spéeches without purpose and newe matter neyther ought we to compare the reuelation of euerye particuler man which was the question with that of the Prophet Esay who had the other proofes that the holy ghost spake by him and made demonstration thereof many times Lastly what soeuer is alledged I leaue to the iudgement of euerye christian Aunswere Euen so also we referre to iudgement what hath béene inferred mutuallie of the one other part And touching the place of Esay which we produced there is no question at all of the reuelation of the Prophet nor the spirite that was communicated to hym but onely of the spirite and wordes which God promised to all his people with whome he entred his alliance For the other proofes pretended that the Prophete had of his vocation we make no doubt at all of them onely we protest that to be principall and most assured which he had by the testimonie of Gods spirite as appeareth in the sixt Chapter of his prophecie Question Be it that he spake to his people by the person of Esay yet it followes not but that he spake first to Esay neyther doe I denie that he promised not his spirite to his people meaning to his vniuersall Church not that he would that euery one yea being in thys church might vsurpe or vaunt to haue this spirite promised particulerly And touching the particuler inspiration of Esay it was not founded onely on his fancie and presumption but in the assuraunce which God gaue him in supernaturall woorkes as is witnessed in hys sixt chapter Besides it was not sufficiently grounded to be beléeued as to haue an inspiration if he had not declared it by other effects and prophesies which hapned as belonges to euerie Prophete to doe afore he beléeued But referring all these things as matters fetched from farre and out of the first proposition I leaue the iudgement as before Aunswere There is not one of the church if he be a true member of the same to whome the spirite of God is not communicated according to the testimonie of the Apostle Paule and also the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike For the presumption pretended there is great difference betwéene presumption and the imaginations of the spirite of man which is but darknesse and of himselfe knoweth nothing in the things of God and the
Neuers made request that after their Obiections and Aunsweres they would procéede to Resolution on both sides touching the conference the day before According to which motion the Doctors say that to iudge of a Booke whether it be written of the holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a Canonicall Booke from an Apocriphal or Ecclesiastical we must not rest vpon a priuate or particulare inspiration because a singulare persone can not haue any ordinarie certaintie that it is a true Reuelation of the holy spirite but stay vpon the common consent and accorde of the vniuersal churche And also that God notwithstanding he might haue reuealed to euery one the true knowledge necessary to saluation yet he hathe ordained a certaine meane to attaine to faithe which is a truthe reuealed meaning by the hearing of Gods woord preached by lawfull ministers sent by the pastors of the true churche as appeareth by the â—exte of S. Paule to the Romaines .10 and Ephes 4. So that if they meane to haue faithe and inwarde Reuelation of the knowledge of saluation come by the hearing of Gods woorde lawfully preached by the ministers of the same according to the ordinarie meane of assurance that we haue the inwarde Reuelation it must necessarily be assured that the woorde by which faithe is gotten hath bene preached by the lawfull ministers of the true church so by consequence be assured of the church afore the inward Reuelation obseruing the meane which Iesus Christe folowed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inwarde Reuelation is when it is referred to the common consente of the church And that of the contrary euery preteÌ„ded inward inspiration particulare or priuate is a false persuasion if it differ from the common accorde of the churche for Gods spirite is not particulare but common They say also that to take a false Doctrine we must examine it to know whether it be priuate or common like as our Lord in S. Iohn 8. hathe giuen a true marke saying Qui de se loquitur mendatium loquitur he that saith any thing of himselfe and his proper inspiration is a lier In like sorte it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man Prophecie against the Prophetes of Israel which Prophecie say to suche as Prophecie in their heart heare the woorde of the Lorde So saithe the Lord cursse be vpon the false Prophets who follow their spirite and haue seene nothing And a little after they sée vaine things and a Diuination ful of dreames saying the Lord saythe and the Lord sent them not and yet they haue giuen assuraunce to confirme the woorde of their Prophesie which false Prophets said they had 〈◊〉 inwarde Reuelation and the woorde of God. They woulde also that it be well wayed and considered that the stay of religion grounded and assured vppon an inwarde inspiration is the foundation of many sectes of our time as Anabaptistes and Swinfeldiens who lay their Doctrines vpon priuate â—â—â—elations alleaging proper places to serue them as a grounde of their Doctrine which the ministers inferred yesterday as Ieremie in the .3 Chap. Ioel. 2. and S. Paule 1. Cor. 2. The which being considered by Brentius and Bucer they haue confessed that by the only tradition of the church we were ascertained of the Bookes of the holy scripture according to the Doctrine of the auncientes as S. Ierome who confesseth to haue receiued by tradition of the churche and by the same to haue knowne that there be foure gospels Origen also saithe asmuch who reciting the Canonical Bookes of the newe Testament saith I haue learned by tradition that there be foure gospels neither is there fouÌ„d any auncient catholike that hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of Bookes vpon his only priuate and particulare inspiration And S. August lib. confess ca. 25 â—seth these woordes Veritas tua Domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admouensne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur ca. And touching the Bookes of the olde Testament whiche the Ministers will not receiue as Canonical by the iudgement of their inwarde Reuelation the Doctors auouche that before S. Augustines time or at the least in his time in the vniuersall churche all the Bookes contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued as Canonicall according to the testimonie of the Councel of Carthage where S Augustine was present and also the Councell Laodicene the Doctors also saie that if by inwarde inspiration we must iudge of Bookes the Fathers that assisted those Councels had it or at leaste might persuade them selues to haue it with more assurance than many others But where the Ministers saie that by theire inwarde Reuelation they iudge that they are not Canonicall 〈◊〉 Doctors referre to iudgemente who oughte soonest to bâ—â—â—â—eued either the inspiration of the Auncientes receiued by the Churche by so many hundred yeres vntil this time or the priuate and particulare inspiration of the newe Ministers They saie further that they offer to proue that the Aunciente Fathers euen suche as wâ—â—e neare the Apostles time as Irenaeus S. Cyprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others vse testimonies of Bookes reiected by the Ministers euen in the proofe of the Doctrine against Heretikes yea S. Augustine him selfe in the seconde Booke of Christian Doctrine Chap. 2. puttes all those Bookes amongeste the Canonicalles as also Damascene in the fourthe Booke De Orthodoxa Fide Chap. 18. So that to knowe if a man haue the spirite of God to discerne and iudge of the Bookes of the Scripture it behooues to reste vpon the common consente and accorde of the Churche as being the ordinarie meane of God lefte for that effecte experience also whiche maie be made is a sufficiente Argumente to conuince that the Faithfull by the inwarde inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall Bookes from the pretended Apocryphall which mighte be easily verefied if there were here at this presente euen somme of the Religion pretended reformed to whom not hauing bene as yet instructed in the diuision of Bookes if those Bookes were presented whiche the Ministers holde for Apocryphal they would not distinguish them in any sort from the other Bookes of the holy Bible And vpon all they conclude that if a man haue Goddes sprite c. vt supra Aunswere Touching the firste Article the Ministers were neuer of opinion as appeares in their former aunsweres that their Religion was grounded vppon theire particulare Reuelations but vpon the woorde of God according as it is sette foorthe in the Writinges of the Prophetes and Apostles the truthe of whiche they saide was moste principally assured by the testimonie and Reuelation of the holy Sprite They saie also that Faithe is not the Truthe in proper speache but the persuasion of the Truthe whiche is taughte vs in the Scripture Like as also this Faithe is not of our owne getting but a pure
gifte of God. They saie further that the lawfull Ministers oughte to he sente not of Pastors pretended and whiche haue nothing of Pastors but the Title and name onely but of God as appeares in Ieremie where this marke is sette foorthe to knowe and marke a false Pastor when he insinuates him selfe or is sente of other than of God. Touching the Article folowing they saie that the true marke by which we maie iudge certainely of a Reuelation is rather the woorde of God than the consente of many bicause it happeneth many times that the multitude in the Churche declining from the woorde doothe wholy swarne and goe astraie as in the time of Micheas Iesus Christe and since in the time of Constance the Emperour Touching those Prophetes who folow and are ledde by their sprite as they that leauing Goddes woorde reste vpon the commaundementes and traditions of men or the vanity of their braine it is not to be douted that suche are not false Prophetes and to be eschewed and reiected onely wée muste vse greate difference betwene the Reuelations and testimonies of Goddes sprite and the vaine imaginations of the minde of men To that the Doctors alleaged that Heretikes as Anabaptistes and others serue theire turne to confirme theire errors with those places of scripture whiche the Ministers haue produced they denie not but it maie be so for that the Scripture being common maye be alleaged of euery one Neither oughte wée to staie vppon that whiche is produced but to weighe and examine howe and to what ende and pourpose it is alleaged by whiche will appeare the difference that is betwene the Ministers and heretikes Touching that whiche was inferred of Brentius and Bucers opinion that by the onely tradition of the Churche the Canonical Bookes maye be discerned from the Apocryphal the Doctoures séeme to miâ—â—erue their purpose with that seing they mainteine that all the Bookes of the Bible are Canonical and yet by their reporte of Brentius and Bucer it appeares that both the one and the other according to the Tradition as they saie do put a distinction calling the one Canonical and the other Apocryphall To the Article folowing wherein the Doctors alleage certaine places of the auncients to take away the difference betwéene the Canonical and Apocriphal Bokes the Ministers answere that as they haue alleaged certaine to proue it so also they are able to produce of the same for the disproofe as S. Ierome in his Prologue named Chaleatus and in an other which beginnes prater Ambrosiuâ— to whome writing the summe of euery Booke of the Bible he makes no mention but of those which the ministers call Canonicall They are able also to alledge two or three Cataloges recited in Eusebius who receiue not for Canonical Bookes but suche as the ministers them selues approue The Councell of Laodicen alleaged by the Doctors speakes for the ministers as not comprehending that wherof there is question and touching experience they Aunswere that it is a question de facto as being better to be alleaged againste the Doctors than the ministers Lastly to the ende no more time be spente in so often repetition of one selfe thing and that we prepare to conferre the pointes of the Confession which the Doctors wil debate the ministers declare that the .xxiiij. Bookes of the olde Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrues with all the Bookes of the newe Testament be approued Canonical of the one and other parte and they are sufficiente to decide wholy all the pointes of their Confession and generally all that belonges to true religion neither haue they occasion by the meanes of that to delay any more the conference in respecte of difference betwéene the two parties touching the distinction of the Canonical and Apocriphal Bookes Obiection Notwithstanding the Ministers say their religion is fouÌ„ded vpon the woorde of God yet they grounde Gods woorde vpon inward Reuelation so that Reuelation is the ground of the woorde and consequently of their religion for they receiue for the woorde but that which they thinke to be particularely reuealed vnto them Touching the other Article where they resiste the opinion of the Doctoures that Faithe is gotten by the hearing of Goddes woorde it séemes they offer to â—â—umble vppon small blockes as not to enter into the principall And where they alleage that faithe is a gifte of God and therfore not gotten it is moste manifest by many ordinarie textes of Scripture that it dothe not differ one thing to be giuen and gotten as the kingdom of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and yet we doe get it hauing true Faithe woorking by charitie the scripture also calles it the rewarde and recompence of good woorkes and S. Paule saithe that by liberalitie and almes men gaine the grace of God Yea there can be none other vnderstanding of S. Paules speache Fides ex auditu but that Faith comes by hearing Goddes woorde which is the obteining of the same by the meane of hearing it preached albeit it be a gifte of god They vse the like subteltie in going about to rebuke the opinion that Faithe is the truthe reuealed as putting a great difference betwéene the truthe reuealed and the Reuelation of truthe which subtiltie shoulde be of force against S. Paule who sayeth Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est which is as much as panis fractio nonne c. And therefore to speake properly the text of S. Paule must néedes lie subiecte to suche rebukes So that touching this Article to the ende not to incidente notwithstanding the Replie of the Ministers the Doctors will dispute no more of it as being a matter too muche impertinent séeing that in the ende it would procure spéeche of merito and so from one to another It gréeues them to enter vpon the vocation of the lawfull Ministers of the churche and therefore to auoide that question they will not alleage which they might without any superfluous discourse that afore their Doctrine be receiued they muste be examined whether they were lawfull ministers sent of the true church to preach Gods woord and to be heard of the people in their sermones according to S. Paules place alleaged heere before which if they of the newe Religion had well considered they might haue a moste sufficient argument not to receiue their Doctrine bicause it is no lesse cleare than the day that they are no Ministers sent by the Pastoures of the Churche but haue foisted in themselues to Preache and are not able to shewe any signe of their vocation either from men and muche lesse from GOD And if it were lawefull to euery one that saithe he is sent to Preache the woorde it were to raise infinite Sectes as wee see happeneth in this time and so they cease further spéeche in this Argument least they giue a greater heate to the matter Touching the Article declaring howe we may knowe a Reuelation to be of God which the ministers hold is
rather discerned by the woorde then by the consente of many it resembles nothing the purpose of the Doctors For the question is howe a man may iudge a Booke to containe Goddes woorde and not to iudge the Doctrine by the woorde already receiued to which the Doctoures desire and the Ministers make request that directly to the pointe they mighte dresse their Aunsweres Touching where they saide of the consent of many the Doctoures phrase was not so but spake of the consent of the Churche which is as infallible as Gods woorde for as it is certaine that the holy Spirite is author of the woorde so is it no lesse sure that he is the soule of the Churche by whose guide shee can neuer erre according to the witnesse of S. Paule who calles it Columnam firmamentum veritatis they will not enter into this Question whether the multitude of the Churche may erre or not and yet it can not be founde since the Churche was planted after the deathe of Christe that shée hathe béene in lesse number than the sectes of Heretikes neither dothe it serue to this purpose that hathe bene alleaged of Constance and of the time of the old Testament for there is greate difference betweene the Sinagoge of the Iewes and the Churche which as it is a congregation of all nations beleeuing in Iesus Christe so it can not but stande and consiste in moste great multitude for otherwayes the promises made to the Churche of the Gentiles shoulde be vaine For it is saide to Abraham that his seede we must not meane of the fleshe should be multiplied as the Starres of heauen or sande of the Sea. To the Article that beginnes touching the Prophets c. the Doctoures say and confesse that there is great difference betwéene fantasticall imaginations and Reuelation of the holy Spirite But the Ministers Aunswere not howe they woulde proue their particulare persuasions to be rather Reuelations then vaine and fonde imaginations of Prophets whereof Ezechiel speakes which notwithstanding they called inspirations as also what they saide and preached they called it the woorde of God. To the Article which beginnes touching Anabaptistes c the Doctoures Aunswer that to one ende the Ministers and Anabaptistes produce selfe places whereof mention is made as the better to assure their Doctrine to be of God bicause they haue a particulare Reuelation as God hathe promised them by his Prophetes For which selfe cause the Ministers haue broughte in the saide Testimonies of scripture to proue that euery Faithfull man may iudge by his particulare inspiration if a Booke containe the woorde of God with Distinction of the Canonicall from the Apocriphall and so discerne the true Doctrine from the false which is the very grounde of the Anabaptistes and other Heretikes To the Article beginning touching that which is produced of Brentius c the Doctors alleage that the ministers haue not vnderstande their intent For they bring not in the saying of Brentius and Bucer otherwayes than in a speache and meaning that they know the Canonicall Bookes of the holy scripture by the tradition of the Churche and not by particulare inspiration as the Ministers doe Touching the Article folowing the Doctoures say that certaine times there were that some men doubted of certaine Bookes of Scripture as the Apocalips and Canonicall Epistles of S. Iohn with others Albeit which time and of common consent the Churche led and guided by the holy Ghoste hathe receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the Bookes that be in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares had more authoritie than the saying of one or two who notwithstanding spake not but of their owne time Besides there is no comparison at all betwéene the saying of one or two particulare men and the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as is saide it will be founde also that S. Ierome hathe approued those Bookes as Canonicall as appeareth in the Prologue he made of the Booke of the Machabees where he saithe As for the Hebrues they are not Canonicall but sunt canonicae Historiae Ecclesia or suche like woordes Touching the Councell of Laodicen they take it as it is albeit it may be they are deceiued naming one Councel for an other And for the Article beginning touching the experience c albeit it be a Question de facto yet it can not be but of special value which if it be founde as the Doctoures haue propouned whereof they doubt not the grounde of their particulare Reuelation is pluckt downe and confounded Touching the conclusion of the Ministers the Doctoures declare that many times they haue cōplained that matters were incidented laying themselues vpon the iudgement of euery one that their last Resolution was drawne in one direct line handling one selfe matter withoute varying in which notwithstanding if there had bene found any matter of difficultie and that the ministers had desired to proceede to the conference of the principal points they could easily haue cleared the said difficultie the Doctors wold haue enlarged further matter of these Articles sauing that to enforce and hasten the businesse for the whiche they are called they forbeare to multiplie speache Where the Ministers alleage that they receiue the xxiiij Bookes of the Olde Testamente with al those of the New the Doctors saie that is smal respecte of matter For al the conference whiche hitherunto they haue made as by what Rules a man might discerne one Booke from an other with iudgemente whether they were of Scripture or not was to bring them to this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Churche who as shée is the iudge of the number of Bookes And that by the same meane when was question of the vnderstanding of Goddes woorde yea in the collation of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers Doctors might haue such reuerence to the vniuersal church that shée mighte be accessed on bothe partes as iudge of the vnderstanding of Scripture whiche they woulde acknowledge to haue receiued of her and whereof shée is infallible more certaine iudge than either the one or other Al which notwithstanding the Doctors offer to the Ministers not to inferre for that time other Bookes than such as they receiue for Canonical only when they shal fall into difficultie of the interpretation of any text or the conference of many the doctors accompte it more reasonable to haue recourse to the vniuersal Churche and Auncient Fathers than to their proper iudgements or fansies of the Ministers Aunsvvere For conclusion the Ministers consente to the offer of the Doctors to decide the pointes and Articles of their confession by the Bookes Canonical agreed vpon betwéene them as the xxiiij Bookes of the Hebrewes and all those of the Newe Testamente protesting notwithstanding that in the last writing proponed by the Doctors there be many things whiche they approue not in any sorte and whiche they hope to reuerse by Confutation
made and contained amongst Christians in Baptisme afore there were any Apostolicall wryting and in Baptisme it was proposed to beléeue the saide Créede afore there was entrie into the wrytings or speache therof in the primitiue Churche wrytings were examined whether they were to be receiued or not and the vnderstanding of the same together if a Doctrine were true or false by this Simboll and rule of Faithe and to imitate or confront it with it as Irenaeus Tertullian and others affirme And though it should happen that a man neuer heard but the Simboll without knowing whether there were holy Scriptures or not yet he might beleeue the said Créede and be a true Christian so that he were not infected with other particulare false opinions And of the contrarie if the beleefe of the Créede depended vppon the knoweledge of the Propheticall or Apostolicall wrytings as to vnderstand and be assured of the conformitie that therein is afore wée beleue it onely wise men and such as were wel studied in writinges who woulde assure them selues of the saide conformitie should be bounde to beleue the Symboll or at the leaste assured of the truthe of the same and so there shoulde be fewe Christians Therefore the beléefe of the Créede dependes not vpon the knowledge of the Scriptures By meane whereof the Doctoures holde by tradition of the Churche gouerned by the holy sprite that the Creede is of the Apostles and that there is no doubte thereof In like sorte by the same tradition we muste geue Faithe to it as a Doctrine of the Apostles not written and yet of equall authoritie with that whiche is in their writings notwithstanding we had no knowledge of other Scriptures The Doctoures are very sory that the other parte hath so muche declined to aunswere pertinently and absolutely to these twoo pointes why they proponed onely to shewe what Faithe and authoritie men oughte to attribute to this Symbol and all other Doctrine receiued by Tradition of the Apostles without Canonical writing whiche might haue bene lefte by them by the same meane and reason that is shewed that the Symboll was geuen to the Christians by the said Apostles without that they put it in writing For ende the Doctours persuade suche as shal reade this conference not to amaze or maruel at so many perplexities declining from the true ende of the said two pointes proponed with request to remember the conferences of S. Augustine with the Donatistes and Pelagians whose fashion resembles the presente manner of the Ministers with whom they conferre laying them selues notwithstanding vpon the iudgemente of suche as shal reade the matter of this disputation Resolution of the Ministers WHo affirme according to the former propositions alwaies mētioned by them also the better to confirme the faithe of the Duches that as S. Cyprian writeth it is incertaine whether the Symbol which beares the name of the Apostles was made composed suche one by them or els drawne and gathered of their Doctrine and also why it is called Symbolum whether it be by reason that euery one of them broughte his parte and portion to it or that it is a marke or certaine signe of Christian Religion as touching whiche Regardes it is a thing indifferente for Saluation as hauing alwayes one equall weighte and authoritie whether the Apostles write it or whether it was faithfully gathered of their writings as were also the Symbols aswel of Niceus as of Athanasius of whom the Church neuer doubted that they conteined not a pure Apostolicall Doctrine as shée hathe well and euidently declared in ordeining that the saide Symboll of Nyceus shoulde be openlye published to the people when they assembled for the Communion the same being in obseruation at this day in the Churche of Rome where this Symboll is readde and sunge euery Sonday in the Temples whiche if it conteined not Apostolicall Doctrine it shoulde impugne the 59. Articles of the Councell of Laodicene by whiche it is forbidden to reade in the Churche any thing of Priuate inuention but onely the Doctrine comprehended in the Canonicall Bookes of the Olde and Newe Testament whose number is there made The Ministers doo further affirme that the reason and principall cause of the Faithe which Christians adde to this Créed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure woord of God and he that teacheth it mainteines also that it is Gods woorde the same appearing by the testimony and writing of S. Paule who after he hath proponed to the Corinthians the Deathe Buriall and Resurrection of Iesus Christe whiche be the principall Articles of the Créede as vpon whiche also our iustification is chiefely founded Addeth this speache that he hathe geuen them that whiche he hathe receiued whiche is that Christe is deade for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and after that he was buried and is risen againe the thirde daye according to the Scriptures Christe him selfe also proposing in like sorte his Deathe and Resurrection to his twoo Disciples alleageth to them the Scriptures for their more assurance saying Oh fonde weake of hart to beleue all things that the Prophets haue pronounced was it not méete the Christ suffred these things and that he entred into his glorie then beginning at Moyses and the other Prophetes he declared to them in all the scriptures the things that were of him selfe In the same chapter appearing to them after his Resurrectiō yea afore the créede was made speaking to them of his death and resurrection for their better assuraunce he laies vnto them the scriptures saying It is so written and it was méete that Christ suffred and rise from death the third day by which wée maie inferre that for the grounde of Faithe and assurance of the Articles of the same there is no better meane than to propone the Scriptures And albeit in the tyme of the Natiuitie of the Churche the Créede was proponed to suche as were Catechised afore the Apostles or Euangelistes had sette downe any thing in writing yet it foloweth not for all that that there were not other scriptures vppon which mighte be founded euery Article of Faithe Whiche to decypher by péecemeale the Article of Creation hathe his fundation vppon the beginning of Genesis The Article of the Almightinesse of God hathe his grounde vppon the 40. of Esaie and many other places of scripture The Article of the Conception of Iesus Christe vppon the vij of Esay For the place of his Natiuitie vppon the v. of Micheas and for the Regarde of the Time vppon the xlix of Genesis and ix of Daniel The Article of his death the Crosse vpon the xxij Psalme xxxv of Esay and ix of Daniel The Article of Resurrection vppon the xvj Psalme the Article of Ascension vppon the xcviij Psalme the Article of the Iudgemente in Daniel xij the Article of his sending the holy ghost in Ioel ij the Article of the Church in Esay 2. and Micheas 4. the Article of Remission of
God Almighty as being able without exception to doo what so euer he will and that there is no power neither in Heauen nor Earthe which may hinder change or delay in any sort the effect and perfecte execution of his eternal and immoueable councelles yet his Omnipotencie ought not to be stretched without discretion or distinction to all things generally that men maye conceiue and imagine in their fonde fansies but to those onely whiche neither are nor can be contrary to his iustice bountie wisedome nor by consequence againste his holy and eternall will wisedome and truthe which is and shal be for euer to doo al things wel and wisely with number weight and measure without any iniquitie disorder or contradiction in any thing he doothe All whiche things being well vnderstande and considered are able to cleare the Ministers to all indifferent people of the slaunderous imposition of the Doctours raised and falsly pronounced by them to make vs hateful to the worlde And to proue it by degrées and set a truth of their slaunders they chaunge and alter almoste al the speaches of the Ministers either by additions or retractions as knowing that without that policie they were without meane both to grounde their saide reproches and giue them any colour of likelyhoode whiche shal nowe appeare by the deduction and particulare confutation of their pretended blasphemies against vs. Firste they accuse vs as to haue saide that Gods Omnipotencie oughte not to be measured but by the onely things which are conformable to his will and not to derogate his wisedome his truthe his nature or the order which he hath established in the worlde Wherein to verifie their accusation and slaunder they choppe and hacke this sentence taking the laste parte of it onely whiche they haue separated from the rest and which the Ministers had limit to the whole for a more expresse and cleare declaration howe Goddes Almightinesse ought to be knowne beleued and woorshipped of al the worlde neither haue they vnderstande the terme of order according to the sense and meaning of the Ministers who signifie thereby the estate and disposition whiche God hath established conserues and enterteines in all things by his eternall prouidence and immoueable will onely to intercept that no confusion happen in his workes according to the Diffinition of S. Augustine in his Bookes de Ordine and himselfe hathe vsed in the fifth Booke of his Confessions the which being not vnderstande by the Doctours they haue translated the opinion of the Ministers to the ordinary and accustomed course of Nature and to the mouing of the creatures whiche be in this worlde Wherein to procure a more exception to the Doctrine aforesaide they obiecte the myracles that God did aboue nature inferring thereby that God doothe and maye doo againste his Order established To the whiche the Ministers aunswere that albeit the myracles be done ouer and aboue the ordinary course of nature yet they are not done contrary to the Order aforesaid bicause al things referred to the prouidence and ordinaunce of God be well done and rightely disposed notwithstanding theire reason and Order be many times vnknowne to men according to the opinion of Salomon God doothe all things in their time to the whiche maye be appropriate a testimonie out of the Sentences of S. Augustine 283. and 284. God who is the Creatour and Conseruer of Natures doothe nothing in his myracles contrary to nature Neither doothe it followe that that whiche is newe in custome is contrary to reason c. whereof if the Doctours will knowe further lette them reade the seconde Booke made by the saide Holy Personage of the Order and likewise what he writes of the myracles in the fifth and sixth Chapter of the thirde Booke of the Trinitie This aunswere may suffise to confute the twoo other pretended blasphemies which folowe in the obiection of the Doctours And touching the fourth wée aunswere that the will of God maye be considered in twoo sortes as the Diuines teache which is as it is declared to men by woordes signes and effectes and according as it is retained and hidde in himselfe the one is called Wil knowne by signes and the other the Will of the good pleasure of god For the regarde of the firste consideration the Ministers confesse as heretofore they haue said to the doctors that God can doo many things which he wil not But to the other we saie his wil is equal with his power as also his power in that regard is equal to his wil According to which consideration ought to be vnderstanded and interpreted the sentence of Tertullian alleaged by vs and euill applied by the Doctours to the Monarchians as beste may iudge all suche as heedefully reade that place produced by vs who to aunswere an other reproche of the saide Doctoures accusing vs of wrong to the Auncientes as to accepte some matter of the Omnipotencie of God are here enforced to reiterate Theodorete in his thirde Dialogue who writes as foloweth Wée muste not saie without some determination that all things are possible to God for who so holdes suche absolute opinion comprehendes all things aswell good as euill whiche oughte not in any sorte be attributed to God. By whiche maye appeare that neither this good Authour nor the others before alleaged by vs woulde not submitte all things indifferently to Goddes power But doo excepte what so euer is contrary to his will and essence To be shorte to qualifie the difference betwéene the Ministers who holde it impossible one body to be in diuerse places at one instant and the Doctours which affirme the contrary there is but one meane which is that the Doctours without entring into so long a circuit and wasting of speache in alleaging so many superfluous matters doo proue summarily by one onely place of the Scripture that God wil doo it To knowe whether the Ministers haue wel or euil alleaged S. Augustine as to proue that a body cannot be withoute place and measures and also whether they haue well or euill defended that the Quantity is essential in a body and not accidental as the Doctours holde they laie themselues vppon the vpright iudgement of the Readers of the Acts of this conference Touching that which foloweth in the writing of the Doctours that there is no place aboue the Heauens wherein Iesus Christ is not comprehended conteined that the Bodies and Sprites are therein differently without any distinction and distaunce of place The Ministers saie that touching all those pointes they rather beleue the Scripture expresse woorde of God which they haue alleaged than all the suttleties and Sophistries which the Doctoures or others are able to bring foorthe of their vaine Philosophy Besides the same is expressely conteined and taught in one of the Articles of our faithe in this phrase From thence shal he come to iudge both the quicke the deade By whiche muste be noted that there is Vnde which is an Aduerbe signifying
for all that one flesh and one body by meane of the societie and matrimoniall acquaintaunce betwene them In like sort be it that Iesus Christ with whom we are knyt and vnited by faith and trust we haue in him and in his promises be as in respect of his body resident in heauen and we remaine here on earth so that there is a great distance betwene him and vs touching his bodye yet that doth not hinder vs to be flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones and that he is not our head and we his mēbers he our husband and we his spouse that we are not of one self body tyed with him that we are not cloathed of him and that we dwell not in him as the braunches in the vine Neither is there distance of time or place what soeuer it be nor difference of seasons which may hinder that coniunction that the faithfull eate truly his flesh and blood For as the auncient Fathers notwithstandyng they were two or three thousande yeares afore Christ dyed yet forbare not to communicate in his flesh crucified and eate the same meate spirituallye which we eate and drinke the same drink spiritually which we drinke so the faythfull also whiche are comen twelue or fiftene hundreth yeares after forbeare not in what place soeuer they be to participate as the Fathers with the same meate and drinke which they did Neither is there anye other difference betwene the eating of the Fathers that were before the comming of Iesus Christ and suche as haue followed hym but the reason of the more or of the lesse whiche is that in the one there is more ample and expresse declaration of Gods good wyll towardes vs than in the other By which we ought to conclude that from the beginning of the world vntyl the ende there was neuer nor euer shall be other coniunction betwene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Churche than spirituall that is purchased by the spirite of god For euen as there is but one fayth in the Fathers and in vs which considereth alwayes on the one and other syde our Lorde Iesus Christe euen so are not wée conioyned with him in other sorte than they were So that as the Fathers had no other societie or communication then spirituall euen so it followeth also that we neither are nor can be otherwise vnited with him than spiritually And yet do we not say that we and the Fathers are not fleshe of hys flesh and bones of his bones that altogether we participate not as wel with his humanitie as with his diuinitie But all our saying and opinion stretcheth to this that this participation which we haue there is by the operation and vertue of the holy spirite Which Iesus Christ in S. Iohn speaking of this coniunction teacheth clearelye in these fewe wordes the thinges whereof I speake to you are the spirite and life as also S. Paule our Fathers sayth he haue eaten the same spirituall meate and dronke the same spirituall drinke Wherein when we speake of thys spirituall eating both in vs and in our Fathers it must not be thought therefore that we would reiect the holye Supper of the Lord or once thinke that in the same the vse of breade and wyne is superfluous no more then the vse of the water in the Baptisme For our Lorde knowing the hardnesse of our vnderstanding together wyth the infirmitie and weakenesse of oure hearts and by a pitie compassion he hath of vs seekyng to remedye the same was not onely content to leaue vnto vs the ministerie of hys word to assure vs of the participation which we haue in hys flesh and bloud and all the benefites lykewyse depending thereupon But he hath also added thereunto the signes of breade and wyne which he hath annexed to his word as seales to seale in our heartes by the vse of the same the fayth which wée haue of the sayd coniunction by his woord Like as it dyd not suffise him to haue contracted the alliance with Abraham by the word and promise he made him but he added further the signe of Circumcision as a seale to confirme and assure more amply the sayd alliance To the ende then that euery one vnderstande what is the supper of the Lord and also what we beleue and teach of it ther must be considered and acknowledged in the same three thinges First the ordinaunce of the Lord contayned in hys woorde and declared by his Minister according to his commaundement By the which word this holy ceremony was ordained and established in the Churche to edifie and entertayne the members of the same which must be diligentlye obserued as to haue it in such honour and reuerence as appertaineth and not to put it on the beadroll or sorte of other ceremonies who haue no other ground or reason of authoritie than the onely wil and traditions of men yet there must be héede taken that by the institution and ordinance whereof we speake ther is vnderstanded a certaine pronunciation of words or any vertue which is hid in them as do the prests of the Romish church who by ignorance and their superstitious opinion thinke to haue consecrated and transubstanciated the bread and wyne which is in their Masse by the vertue of fiue wordes Hoc est enim corpus meum breathed and pronounced vpon the elementes Wherein they are no lesse deceiued than abused bicause the woord which is the formall cause of the sacrament is not a word sayd and spoken simply but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God don by the Minister according to his cōmaundement and a predication of the death of Iesus Christ wyth the fruite of the same by the which the heartes of the hearers are raysed into contemplation and meditation of his benefites and theyr faith kyndled and enflamed in his loue And where this is not done as is sayd we must not thynke that the elementes are sacramentes as S. Augustine teacheth vppon S. Iohn 80. Treatise in these termes from whence comes this vertue to the water that in touching the bodie it washeth the heart but that it is done by the woord not bicause it is pronounced but by reason it is beléeued this woorde is the woorde of faith which we preache sayeth the Apostle which is if we confesse with our mouthe that Christe is the Lord and beleeue in our heart that God hath raised him from the deade we shal be saued wherin continuing his matter he addes in the end these woordes this woorde of faithe which we preache is the same without doubt by which baptisme is consecrated to the end it may clense and washe The ministers inferre héere before two things the one that the woorde of Consecration is not as is saide a simple pronunciation but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance with all the misterie of the deathe of Iesus Christe The other that the signes and Elementes consecrated are not chaunged in
ReuelatioÌ„s of the holy spirite which are most certaine and of no lesse assurance And so lastly touching our Answeres to be out of the first matter or spéeche If they be so so also are the Demaundes Obiection The Conclusion is whether euery one ought to be beléeued saying he hath a particulare Reuelation of the holy spirite without Declaration otherwayes that there be holy Scriptures and that there is difference betwéene the same Let euery one be iudge whether the Demaundes and Aunsweres be pertinent to this difficultie or not like as also whether the one importe more credite and beléefe than the other as the one béeing a newe Doctrine shewes not any proofe more than the other of their particular inspiration Aunswere In our former Answers we haue declared howe the Reuelations supposed by particulare persons ought to be examined by suche meanes as they may be discerned whether they be of Gods spirite or not Héere Doctor Vigor intercepted his further spéeche saying that in the discourse aforesaide he vnderstoode muche matter in the mynisters Aunswers to be against the woorde of God as where it is sayde that first the Sonne must be honored afore the father which Spyna mainteined to be vndoutedly true alleaging that proposition to haue his ground and authoritie on the holy scriptures as in the gospel and first Catholike of S Iohn Whervnto Vigor Replies that in the saide places is not founde this woorde firste albeit in respecte not to incident the matters alleaged in the beginning of the conference he wil forbeare for the present to enter into Confutation reseruing that charge til the ende of al the conference Aunswere Spyna requires Doctor Vigor to coate the places of scripture which he pretendes to be contrary to the contentes of his Aunswere And to iustifie his opinion to glorifie first the Sonne afore the Father according to the testimonie of the textes afore noted he preferres this reason grounded and drawne out of the Scriptures we can not knowe the Father onlesse we haue knowne the Sonne we can not glorifie the Father onlesse we haue knowne him by which the consequence foloweth that the knowledge and glorie of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glorie of the Father which being referred by Vigor to be more amplie debated in the conclusion of the whole conference Spina was also content Obiection Vigor Obiectes without entring further into this disputation that by the selfe same reason inferred by Spina it foloweth that we must honoure the Father afore the Sonne for by the Father we come to the knowledge of the Sonne as appeareth by the woordes of our Lord to S. Peter Caro sanguis noÌ„ reuelauit tibi sed pater meê° qui in coelis est The same aduouching manifestly that the heauenly Father reuealed to S Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon Vigor argues in this sorte whether the reason of Spina be vaileable by the Father we knowe the Sonne therefore muste we firste honoure the Father afore the Sonne Aunsvvere To followe the order of the knowledge which we oughte to haue of Iesus Christe and his Father propouned to vs in S Iohn we must begin by the Sonne and from the Sonne to the Father For S. Philip desiring him once to shew to him and his companions his Father He answered Philip who hath seene me hath also séene my Father the same teaching that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is a former knoweledge of the Sonne which may be also approued by the Authorities of other places where Iesus Christe saithe that none knoweth the Father but the Sonne and he to whome the Sonne wil reueale him And to aunsweare the Authoritie of S Mathewe alledged by Vigor Spina saithe that the place by him produced contained no mention of the knowledge of the Father nor the meane to come thereunto but only of the Reuelation which was made by the grace of God and his holy spirite to S. Peter and his other companions to know Iesus Christ and in him his Father Whereupon Vigor calles vppon the iudgemente of the Auditorie whether this be an Answere to his Obiection reseruing notwithstanding till an other conference to handle this pointe more largely if he wil mainteine it as not now to incident that which hath bene proponed whereunto Spina consentes Vigor addes further vpon an Answere made by Spina where he vsed a difference betweene the Reuelation certaine by the Lorde to a particulare man and the holy Scripture in which Aunswere he seemes to put a maruell the rather for that there is no Faithe giuen to holye Scripture but only that the Lorde is the Author thereof who can not lie euen so if a particular man be assured that a Reuelation is made to him by the Lord or that a persone be assured of the Reuelation made to an other be bound asmuch to giue faith to the Reuelation as to the scripture the which matter also he will not as he may amplie handle and deduce but falles eftsoones vpon the first Question which as yet hathe not bene resolued to the which he prayes Spina to aduaunce and prepare himselfe Aunswere The cause of Vigors maruell touching the Reuelation of the Lorde and the woorde to be thinges differing produced in one of Spinas Answeres moues in that he conceiues not the sense and meaning of the spéeche For Spina wil not put a difference touching the certaintie betweene the true Reuelations of the Lorde and the woorde whiche proceeding from him is no lesse true than the Reuelation and the Reuelation of Reciprocal Faithe with the woorde and yet it followes not for all that that the woorde and Reuelations of Goddes spirite by whiche we may be ledde to the vnderstanding of the woorde be not things differente and that the one goeth not afore the other And touching Vigors request to prepare to the pointe he Aunswereth that he can not frame or draw his Answers from other grounde than the Demaundes that are made him To this Vigor Replied that touching the sense he layeth him selfe vpon the contentes of Spinas Aunswere And where he saithe that the woorde goeth afore the Reuelation that deserues not to set a difference vppon the question propouned And touching the matter of the pointe Vigor Demaundes if a persone may be assured that he hath the Reuelation of the Lord or that a Booke be a Booke of holy scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inwarde inspiration And lastly how he may assertaine any of this inspiration which he hath of the Lord. Aunswere The first Article of the last demaunde is not a thing impertinent to distinguishe the scripture from the interpretation of the same seeing they are matters diuers and sundry giftes of the lord And to answer that part of the demaund how a particulare man hauing in his heart the Reuelation and inwarde witnesse of Gods spirite may knowe that it is Canonical the spirite of God is
thing which is séene Neither is it lesse harde that suche a thing be done than that two bodyes be penetrate We must not forgette that oftentimes the scripture in the appearings and spirituall visions vseth this language that the Heauens were open and yet in suche cases there was but spirituall vision and likewise but spirituall appearing And as the Ministers séeke to take the rigoure of the woorde opening of the Heauens euen so they must not note it straunge if we wrest in like rigoure the penetration of the Heauens specially in the Article of the Ascention where is Question of the body of Iesus Christe which had already pierced bodyes more impenetrable than the Heauen which pointe of penetration of the Heauen we referre to be more amplie handled an other time as nowe to auoide tediousnesse Touching the eight and twentieth Article where the ministers againste expresse scripture defend obstinately that God of his power can not bring to passe that a Camell or Cable enter the eye of a néedle we can not a little maruell bothe at their blindnesse séeming to sée nothing in the midde day and at their frowarde obstinacie By which as we can not iudge that they vnderstand not wel their fault but sinne euen against their conscience oppugning the truthe by them well knowne so it séemes God suffereth this to happen to them in this text and place of the scripture so manifest to the ende that by this Article the world may vnderstande howe farre more hardie they are to giue false vnderstandings of scriptures more obscure than this yea in the matter of the Auncient Christians which are against them But to the ende the world vnderstand their great wrong to denie that our Lorde can bring to passe that a Camel or cable passe thorowe the hole of a néedle we obiecte that it were impossible to God to saue a riche man vsing this Argument taken of the texts of the Gospell it is more impossible or harde that God saue a riche man than to bring to passe that a Camel or cable passe thorow the hole of an Néedle God can not bring to passe of his omnipotencie as the Ministers say that a Camell enter the hole of a néedle then he can not of his almightinesse make that a riche man be saued and enter into the kingdome of Heauen The Maior is of the Scripture the Minor is confessed by the Ministers and the consequence is necessary and according to all Philosophie he that can not doe the moste easiest can not doe the moste hardest The Auncientes also haue expounded withoute gaine saying the present Scripture as Origen in his Homilie vppon this place saying it is possible that a Camell enter the eie of a néedle not for all that that it be possible as in respecte of men but to God like as the manner by which suche things may be done is knowne to God and his Sonne Iesus Christe and to him to whome it is reuealed S. Augustine likewise in his Booke de spiritu littera Cap. 1. and 5. writes in this sorte to Marcellinus it séemes to thée an absurde thing when I tell thée that a man may be withoute sinne albeit there is none suche founde except Iesus Christe thoughte it to seeme absurde to thée that a thyng may be done whereof no Example can be shewed séeing as I beléeue thou doubtest not at all that it was neuer done that a Camell entred the eye of a néedle and yet it is said that suche a thing is possible to God. By their Aunswere to the nine and twentie Article it may easily be knowne that they beguile and abuse their Disiples making them beléeue by faire woordes and writings that Really in the Supper they receiue the bodie of Iesus Christe euen he that issued out of the wombe of the virgine and was putte vppon the Crosse for the restauration of mankinde And they séeke to make to vnderstande that these which put not to the Sacrament which they call of the Supper wyth the Breade and Wine but some Spirituall effecte onely as redemption iustice sanctification eternall life and other giftes and benefites which Iesus Christe brings to hys chosen diminish the excellencie dignitie of the same Sacrament and that they be Zuinglians yea and that ouer and aboue suche spirituall effectes it muste be beléeued that the body of Iesus Christe is truely receiued in the Supper and yet they feede an other opinion in their braine For when they are pressed to Argue not being able to sustaine that fantasticall presence confessed in their writings they make themselues Zuinglians and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christe in the Supper the same being as muche to say that bisides the Breade and Wine they receiue some spirituall effecte and not Really the body as the Ministers holde in the presente Aunswere which as they make manifest by that they recite of the Apostle S. Paule so by the same may be gathered what is their opinion touching the supper which is that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not Really but onely by spirituall effecte in the heartes of the Faithfull For the Galathians by the hearing of the preaching of S. Paule did not receiue Really the body of Iesus Christe crucified but onely had an imagination of the Crosse and Passion of Iesus Christe and receiued onely the frute of their Faithe That is by that meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God. The Allegation also which the Ministers make of S. Cyprian tendes to this ende to shewe that in the Supper is receiued onely certaine effectes spirituall which notwithstanding Allegorically are signified by these woordes to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christe to sucke his bloude c. wherein they denie albeit againste the intente of S. Cyprian in his Sermon of the Supper the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christe The Doctoures confesse that the Argumente which they haue made tendes to the Caluinistes and not to the Zuinglians neither did they thinke that the ministers woulde otherwayes iudge of this Sacrament than Caluine Beza and the other ministers who vaunte them selues to be ministers of the churche of the Caluinistes which they call reformed But those which exhibited to the Bishops being at Poissi the Cōfession touching this Sacrament vsed an other maner of spéech They without difficultie confessed Really the Bodye of Iesus Christ to be present in the Supper which at this daie the Ministers denie with the Doctoures conferentes And as farre as the Doctoures can iudge the Ministers be come of Caluinistes Allemanistes which suche wil not wel disgest as mainteine the Doctrine of the Churche whiche they call Reformed séeing their principal supposts faile them at néed as vnable to aunswere one Argumente obiected by the Doctours as affirming in their aunswere to be so farre illumined with the Holy Sprite which makes them vnderstande and knowe al things Touching the Article folowing they reueale openly their present opinion touching
month shal we kil them Muttons or Béeffes which may suffice them Or shal we gather all the Fishes of the sea to content them God answered to Moyses the hand of the Lord is it shortned thou shalt sée now whether my woorde wil come to passe or not In like manner as often as we reade in the Scriptures that the multitude or other particular sort fel into infidelitie or distrust of the aide and succors of God we shall finde that ordinarily it moued in respecte they rested vppon the nature and disposition of humaine things and did not comprehende sufficiently the power of God and of the contrary to confirme them we finde that this power was put before their eies wherof we haue héere before produced certaine Examples of Esay and Ierome In the newe Testamente the Virgine séemed to make some doubte of the meane of hir Conception as hauing regarde to the naturall manner of conceiuing For shée sayde howe may this be séeing I know no man But the Aungell Aunswered nothing is impossible to God drawing her by that from the imagination of naturall propreties which is the roote of infidelitie exhorted hir to aspire to the almightinesse of God as being the first stone and rocke wherupon is builded true religion This being considered and so to resolue with the Ministers for this conference we say that by good right gods almightines obteines expressely the first place amongest the Articles of the Apostles Créede as being the same by the which the other Articles of Faith and dooings of God aboue nature are beleued and mainteined against all contradiction and repugnancie of nature or reason that may be pretended or alleaged and without the which neither Article of the Faithe or any dooings of God surpassing nature and conteined in the Scripture can be defended against the malice and deprauation of humaine Sprite which tendes alwayes to infidelitie and disobedience to God and is prompt and suttle from his byrth to depraue and reproche the woord and commaundement of the same by meane whereof wée say that so much the more euery good Christian oughte to enforce himselfe to hold preserue this Article whole without either suffering any exception or to restraine it to our single pleasure or purpose vnder colour of incertaine pretended repugnances of Creatures mouing in the Sprites of men for want of direct vnderstanding comprehending the greatnesse of God for as the Scripture giues to vs alwayes this Omnipotency in generall without any restrainte in regarde of creatures and dooings of God so it teacheth vs that creatures are vnder his obedience as the Clay in the handes of the Potter to receiue such chaunge and forme as he thinks best without that they can say why doo you this to me or why chaunge you me such similitude of speach vse the Prophet Esay Ierome and S. Paule Wée say further that so much lesse ought it to be licenced to men to limit and bound the said power according to the contradictions which they imagyn in their fansies of the nature wisedome or eternall will of God séeing the expresse sentence of the Scripture is that as God can doo more than wée vnderstand so he smiles at such as wil meddle with his nature wisedome eternal wil as if they were his Counsellers and knewe further of his iudgements and ordinaunces than his owne woord dooth pronounce and in the ende all sprites created are constrained with S. Paule to cry out confessing their ignorance of the power wisedome of God and of his dooings Oh depth of Riches of the knowledge wisedome of God Oh that his iudgementes are incomprehensible and his wayes impossible to finde For who is he that hath knowne the intent of the Lord or who hath bene his Counseller Wherewith wée may also note vpon this pointe a godly sentence of S. Augustine in an Epistle of his to Volusianus Wée confesse that God can doo something which in searching wée cannot finde meaning that as God can doo something so albeit in our naturall iudgemente wée thinke it impossible yet let vs hold it possible only the capacity of our sprite is not able to comprehende it Wée say further that by suche licence and meane to exempt from Goddes power at our pleasure vnder colour of certaine impossibilities of nature or repugnancy supposed by our owne iudgement in the nature wisedome or will of God euery one may study to faine the like in all matters of Faith wherein suche things may be easily inuented or disguised And that it be so if all the Heresies be obserued that haue withstād it in euery time from the first Article of the Creede euen to the laste it will appeare that they al haue kept this way and methode to shake euery Article of the Faith as impossible to God considering the impossibility of the facte according to nature and certaine pretended inconueniences against nature wisedome will and glory of god To this effecte also wée apply the twoo firste Bookes of Tertullian whereof the one is of the Incarnation of Iesus Christe and the other of the Resurrection of his Fleshe againste the Marcionistes wherein the Christian Reader shall reade like Argumentes of the saide Marcionistes labouring to exempt the Incarnation of our Sauiour and Resurrection of his Fleshe from the Omnipotency of God. Nowe to conclude this pointe wée speake it to all good Christians that to the ende to adde nothing to the Scriptures whose speache is alwayes of the power of God to his Creatures withoute any lymitation and to the ende to glorifie the infinite power wisedome and eternall will of our Creatour and Redéemer and also not to open the vessell of the secretes of God to euery impudent who of his owne folie will sette Lawes to men but to the power wisedome and eternal wil of God. And lastely to the ende not to bring into the worlde all Heresies onely but also an Atheisme who according to his sense and fansie may and will oppose and gainesay the infinite power of the true liuing and eternall God. Wée affirme eftsoones that it is necessary to beleue confesse and mainteine that our God is the Almighty Lorde without ende to whom as nothing is impossible so euen the least of his woorkes standing daily afore our eies cannot be comprehended And in plaine speache he is no more a Christian nor a faithfull man who restraines or drawes into any lymit the power of God for thereby he reuerseth the maintenaunce of the Faithe which ought to be generall as to the which no exception can be giuen But as the Omnipotency ought to be kepte in his generalitie and perfection so our opinion is that it is not inough to say that God is almighty and hath the vertue to doo any thing as to inferre that it is done for all that our Lorde can doo he hath not yet done nor neuer wil do bicause his power is infinite But the knowledge of this omnipotency serues to confesse magnifie
are or euer were and attribute it to the onely companie of those that folowed their customes and erroures as at this day the Doctoures allowe not to be of the Catholike and vniuersall Churche other than suche as folowe the traditions and abuses of the Romishe Churche Bisides as the Donatistes persecuted such as stode against their Doctrine vsing euery violence and crueltie they coulde imagine according to S. Augustines testimonie in many places so the whole worlde standes to iudge of the rage and furie as well of the Doctoures as their complices priests and hipocrite Monkes againste the poore Christians in times past like as also for the present there is none that knowes not bothe by their Sermones wrytings and conferences what hatefull and grudging mindes they beare againste the seruauntes and children of God and howe much they would delite to roote them vp if their power were equall with their desire By which may be iudged whether they or we resemble nearest the example of the Donatistes And where they say we are neuerthelesse blasphemers bicause we shake of and detest the name we Aunswere that they are also neuerthelesse reprochers and backebiters notwithstanding they denie it and disauow the title Like as the mutuall effectes on bothe partes stande as Arbitrators to which of vs these crimes and names may appertaine or be attributed And where the Doctors in the same Article say that it is a blasphemie against the bountie of God to charge him with imputacion to be Authoure of vice and sinne we confesse it with this addition that it is also a blasphemie againste his truthe to say that in him is yea and no as they doe who vnder a coloure and false pretence to establishe the omnipotencie of God affirme that in one instant he may bring to passe that one body be in diuers places which is to say that he is and is not Touching that which they say after that we erre in the groundes of the omnipotencie of God as saying that he was almightie for that he dothe what he list and that nothing can hinder or let the execution of his Councelles we Aunswers that in that we folowed the Definition of S. Augustine in the Enchiridion cap. 96. whose woordes be these verbatim truely he is not called Omnipotente by any other reason than that he dothe all that he will and that the effecte of the will of the almightie is not hindred by the wil effect of any creature Touching an other their matter of imputation againste vs in that we should say that the almightinesse of God ought not to be stretched generally to all things that mennes wit◠can conceiue and imagine we Answer and vnder correction of the Doctors say we said not so but that Gods omnipotencie ought not to be stretched withoute some discretion or distinction to all things generally that men may forge and imagine in their foolishe fansies wherein it may eftsoones appeare to euery one howe they cut of and falsifie our speaches and sentences as to haue meane and coloure to slaunder vs. Against that they say after that it is a blasphemie to holde that God can doe nothing againste order we say in the contrary that to thinke and speake that he can doe any thing which is not well ordained is to blaspheme his wisdome and eternall prouidence In the Article folowing the Doctoures pretende that for one body at one instante to be in diuers places is not a thing that derogates the truthe of God we maintaine the contratrary that it would derogate bothe his truthe bicause there should be in him as is sayde yea and no and also his wisdome for that in his woorkes there shoulde be disorder and confusion and by consequent it woulde derogate his omnipotencie séeing that in his doings there would be imperfection And we say further that it would not only be againste the disposition and ordinary course of nature as the Doctors faine to thinke and vnderstande but also against the eternal and immoueable will of our God. And where the Doctoures to proue that God may doe any thing againste order affirme that he may chaunge and alter the order he hathe established in the world we confesse it but denie that in doing so he shoulde doe any thing that was disordained as for Example all the Faithfull and Christians beléeue that God in the ende will renue the state of all the worlde and yet in this time notwithstanding there shall be nothing which is not well ordained perfect and accomplished in all his partes In the Article folowing the Doctors confound the distinction proponed by vs in our Aunswere betwéene the will of God manifested that which he holds hid in himselfe and is equall to his power as we haue héeretofore amplie declared wherin the Doctors propone a false touching the wil of God manifested as taking generally that which we agréed vnto thē only in certaine particulare cases which is that God can doe more in certaine things than he hath declared he wil which no man doubtes as S. Augustine saith in his booke of perfecte iustice that he cā not wel bring to passe that a man be perfect in this worlde and so sanctifie him that there rest no more infirmitie or imperfection in him and yet he neuer declared to vs by his woorde that he would doe it But of the contrary that the fleshe will alwayes resist the spirite in all those that are regenerate in suche sorte that all the time of their liues they shal be imperfect in many partes But be it that in this case and any other like to it God can doe more than his will beares that is manifest to vs in his woorde yet it is not to say for all that but that there be other cases wherin God hathe reuealed to vs his will against the which he can not do or order any thing as for example he hathe tolde vs that he is one that he is immoueable incomprehensible altogether good wholly iust no way imperfecte and euery way true against all which things which are disclosed to vs and plainely pronounced in his woorde it is impossible to him euer to thinke say do or order any thing it is not so then that the matter proponed and debated by the Doctoures touching a body to be in diuers places at one instant is comprehended within this being as is said contrary to the truth of God which shal serue to answer their flaūders and to al else which they haue proponed in this Article as also in an other Article folowing where they say the God can not only but that he wil also bring to passe that one body occupie diuers places in one instant which shal be more impossible to them to proue the power aforesaide by the which they haue made so muche laboure hithertofore in vaine In the definition which they vse of a body in the Article folowing they say against themselues in holding that the dimensions are essentiall
Doctrine they disdaine they should wel know that this reason is nothing bicause the Angelles and suche as are blessed being alwayes conformed to the wil of God may doe all that they will doe and there is no creature that cā hinder the effect of their wil and yet they are not omnipotent touching the saying of S. Augustine taking it as the ministers do the reason of Gods almightinesse is too weake and false But to haue a true vnderstanding of this sentence we muste consider that there is difference betwéene the will of God actuall and the power of the wil for God may wil many things which he will not nor neuer would and therfore he can will more then he will not actually wherein we ought rather to measure his omnipotencie then according to his actuall will. In this sorte must we interprete the texte of S. Augustine that Goddes omnipotencie stretcheth to all things which he can will and not according as he actually willeth S. Augustine also is recited by the ministers being destitute of testimonie of the scripture albeit in their former Aunswere they vaunt to haue taken that reason of the scriptures In the Article folowing the ministers charge vs falsly to haue curtalled some woords of their last wryting which shall not be found true For our text beares these woords it is vndoubted that aboue all conceite and imagination of mannes spirit Gods power is great infinite and incomprehensible by which may be clearely séene that we speake vniuersally of all conceite and imagination withoute exception of any whether it be of wisdome or of follie therefore it was without néede to expresse the woordes of the ministers séeing the Doctors spake generally the which that which goeth before dothe shewe as the ministers haue recited it where it is said that we reprehended them in that they gaue some restraint and limitation of the omnipotencie of God as not suffering it to stretch generally to all things that mannes wit mighte imagine or conceiue where in these woordes generally and all things they declare that we woulde comprehende according to humaine iudgement euen the foolish fansies and imaginations which men may comprehend And that we would not cutte of anything of the wryting of the ministers who perhappes were of opinion that we would not say that God can doe all that a fonde braine can imagine as fearing that we would inferre against them that God could doe any follie which should not folowe for albeit in the iudgement of men certaine things are estéemed fonde yet séeing they are possible in themselues they may be done of God but wisely notwithstanding the witte of man iudge the contrary Like as in many iudgementes man beguiles himselfe estéeming that for follie which is wisdome with God as S. Paule saith So that we say that all things which are to be imagined by man are to be done with God without excepting any thing sauing suche things as implie contradiction to be and not to be which can not be done in respecte of repugnancie procéeding of their parte and not by faulte of the power of God wherein we pray suche to whome these conferences shall come to note that the ministers are alwayes found slaunderers when they lay that crime vpō vs like as in the former wryting they stande as conuinced therein The Ministers will also be founde slaunderers in the Article folowing where they clippe our sayings and falsly lay vpon vs to haue writtē that God cā do any thing against order in déede we sayd that to holde that God could do nothing against the order which he hath established in the worlde is to blaspheme God in which may be discerned the slaunder of the ministers who mangling the speeche haue taken away these woordes established in the world where they inferre that it is a blasphemie to say that God may do a thing which is not well ordered it is oute of doubte but to doe any thing contrary to the order established in the world importes not any thing disordered but onely mutation and chaunge of order without any disorder which the Ministers confesse in their Article folowing We greatly abhorre the blasphemies cōtained in the next Article whereof the firste is that one body be in diuers places is a thing derogante to the truth of God bicause in God there shoulde be yea and not so that the Ministers hold that God should not be true if he broughte to passe one body to be in diuers places and yet they neither teache nor can teache that God hathe euer sayde that one body coulde not be in diuers places it impugnes the wisdome of God bicause in his woorkes there shoulde be disorder and confusion wherein likewise they confesse that God shuld not be wise if he made one bodie at one instante to be in diuers places The thirde is that suche thing resistes the omnipotencie of God séeing in suche acte there should be suche imperfection that muche lesse according to the opinion of the Ministers that God in doing this shoulde be omnipotent but of the contrarie he should be imperfect and impuissant The fourthe is that if suche a thing were done it shoulde be againste the eternall and immoueable will of God and therefore God should be mutable Oute of which blasphemies is necessarily vomited a manifest Atheisme that God should not be God if he made one body in one instant to be in diuers places For God can not be but true wise almightie and immoueable which blasphemies we are content to coate and marke only with admonishment how many miseries spring of their Doctrine that denie the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament and not to stay any more to confute them as being too manifest and hauing regarde with all to the saying of Ireneus that there be heresies whome to discouer is to refute them In the Article folowing they resiste that with so many times they haue saide that God coulde not bring to passe that one bodie be in two places at one instante bicause it impugned the order which he hathe established in the worlde as though God could doe no other wayes than according to the order which he hath already established and in this present Article they confesse that God can chaunge and alter the said order out of which Confession we draw this argument God can chaunge and alter the order which he hath established in the world and that withoute any preiudice to his truthe his wisdome power and immoueable will then he can chaunge the order by the which he hathe established as the Ministers séeme to holde that one bodie should not be but in one place and to bring to passe in the contrarie the order being changed that one bodie shall be in diuers places and yet in that there is no derogation to his truthe wisdome power and will and by consequent that God of his omnipotencie may bring to passe that one body be in diuers places Touching the
conference to the ende it dissolue afore this matter be cleared In which respect to conclude and resolue in all the conference we are determined with Gods grace to set downe in writing no lesse briefly than as clearly as we can all that which God hath taught vs and we learned by his word of these matters as wel to satisfie our duty to God and his honor our obedience to the Lorde of Neuers and the Lady of Buyllon as also to content in the end and edifye the church A conclusion and resolution of the pointes aswell of the supper as of the Masse contayning that which the Ministers beleue and teach therof in their churches by the woord of God. THe ende soueraigne felicitie of men is to be knit with God dwel in him for that it is the onely meane by which their desires may be contented and satisfied and their harts and mindes fully deliuered from the hard and cruell seruitude of sinne and al other passions lustes feares distrusts which oppresse thē the same being the occasion that S. Paule placed perfect blessednesse and euerlasting rest of the happy in that the God is in them all things But bicause mē are naturally corrupt and vicious and of the contrary God is pure and holy in all perfection the difficulty is how to chuse the meane by which they may approche vnto him seing there is no societie betwene light and darknes nor any cōmunion betwene iustice and iniquity This meane cannot be found in them bicause that of them selues they are altogether inable and incapable to be raysed from the miserie and malediction whereunto they are falne headlong in such sorte as being blynde of vnderstanding they cannot knowe what is good for them and muche lesse séeke for it being frowarde and of hardened heartes And therfore it is necessary to forsake and come out of themselues and searche the meane aforesaid in Iesus Christ who was giuen vnto them of the father to be their iustice wysedome sanctification redemption way lyfe and truth Onely there restes now to know how they may be vnited and conioyned with him The Apostle teacheth vs it is done by faith by which Iesus Christ dwelleth in our heartes and restes in vs so that he and we are made all one as he is one wyth his father There be two principall causes of this fayth the one is outward and the other inwarde The inwarde is the holy spirite which is called a spirite of faith bicause he is the author thereof and hath created and produced it in the hearts of men inclining and disposing them to receiue in all obedience the worde and promise of God preached vnto them by the faithfull Executors and Ministers of the same whiche word is the externall cause of faith And as this faith increaseth and riseth by degrées so doth also the vnitie wée haue with Iesus Christ and by this meane with God vntyll as S. Paule saith that we concurre and méete all together in the vnitie of the faith and knowledge of the sonne of God in perfect man in the maner of a perfect stature of Christ This encrease of faith comes by the operation and vertue of the holy spirite which was the originall and first author of it And then after by the continuance of the worde purely preached and pronounced And lastly by the lawfull vse of the Sacramentes prouided as seales for the certaintye and confirmation of the fayth and assurance which we haue of the sayde coniunction with God by Iesus Christ together with participation of all the benefites grauntes giftes graces and blessinges which are purchased for vs by his fauour as remission of synnes our regeneration and mortification of the flesh with his concupiscence For the better signification of which thinges and to assure vs of the exhibition and vse of the same Baptisme was ordayned of God to the ende that in the water sprinkled vpon our bodies and in the promise of God added therewith we may behold as wyth our eyes the inuisible grace which God doth to vs to wash vs and make vs cleane of our spirituall ordures and so to sanctifie vs and make vs new creatures as also to assure vs continuallye of the eternall lyfe and make vs encrease in the hope we haue by our participatiō of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for our redemption and of his bloud shed for the remission of our synnes The bread and wyne are distributed to vs in the supper by the ordinance of Iesus Christ But as we acknowledge an vnitie and sacramentall coniunction betwene the exterior signe and the thing signified by it so we saye of the other side that betwene them both there is such a distinction that the one ought not to be confused with the other neither the spirituall thing so tyed to the corporall which representes it that either the one without the other cannot be receiued or by necessity they both bée alwayes indeuidablye knyt together Whereof it followeth that such are in errour who hold that in the supper the bread is transnatured into the substāce of the body of Iesus Christ And likewise those that say it is there knit and vnited corporally so that who soeuer receiues takes those signes be he faithfull or infidel takes and receiues immediately the thing signified by them Which errour wyth the moste part of others crept in vpon this matter hath proceeded in that men haue not well comprehended what it is to eate the body and drinke the bloud of Iesus Christ which ought not to be vnderstand as a maner that corporal meates are taken eaten but onely of a spirituall fashion as is declared in the sixt of S. Iohn which consistes in that that Iesus Christ dwelles in vs and we in him the same being done by the faith we haue in him As S. Augustine teacheth in his .25 treatise vpon S. Iohn saying why doest thou prepare thy belly and thy teeth beleue and thou hast eaten it Likewise in his third booke of Christian doctrine chap. 16. as followeth whē Iesus Christ saith if you eate not the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you shall not haue lyfe in you It seemes he commaundes to commit a great crime so that it is a figure by the which we ought not vnderstand other thing but that we must communicate with the passion of the Lord and kepe in memorie that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. Then the eating of the flesh and body of Iesus Christ is no other thyng than a straight coniunction and vnitie wée haue with hym which is wrought by the fayth we repose in his promises euen as by the mutuall promises made and receiued betwene a man and his wyfe the mariage concludes and is established betwene them wherein albeit being so knit they happen by any occasion to be seperate and farre of one from the other touching their bodies yet are they
the Hebrues By meane wherof it is no lesse blasphemie matter contrary to the doctrine and meaning of the Apostle to approue the repeticion and reitteration of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ than the plurality of sacrifices for sin And if the Doctors would as hath beene their custome to disguise and colour such an abuse preferre their distinction betwene the sacrifice propiciatory and applicatorie as to say the Priestes pretende not in their Masses to sacrifice Iesus Christ for other ende than to apply the merite of hys death to those by whom they celebrate them We answer that in doyng thus they would attribute more than they do to Iesus Christ bicause all the fruite of hys sacrifice comes to vs by the application of the same euen as the healing our cure comes not so much of the confection and preparation of the medecine as by applying the same Besides we make this question to our Masters by what meanes the benefit of the death of Iesus Christ was applyed to the fathers afore his coÌ„ming seeing at that time ther was no Masse soong All men of any spirit iudgemeÌ„t may perceiue that those distinctions are friuolous suborned onely to darken the truth bleare the eyes of the simple and ignorat For Iesus Christ who hath offered the sacrifice is the selfe same which he applies to vs by his spirite his woord and his sacramentes And now to returne to the matter of our beginning to declare to what ende the auncients haue called the Supper all the action of the same sacrifice there is to be noted that in the supper ther be many sortes of sacrifices as the sacrifice of a contcite hart which is offred by publik confession of sins done there After the sacrifice of our bodies which is there offred by open praier following the said confession thirdly the sacrifice of praise and thanks giuing there offered when after the confession prayers they sing Psalmes The preaching of the gospel which is called a sacrifice Rom. 15. comes after as when the confession praiers being done the Minister presents himselfe to the people to reueale the woorde of god Almes which is an other kinde of sacrifice were in times past layd to the supper by the faythfull who by thys meane would testifie not onely the memorie they had of the graces and benefits of God but also their charity and desâ—re they had to relieue the necessities of their poore neighbours Ouer and besides all these kindes of sacrifices there bée two particular in the Supper whereof is mention made in the writinges of the auncientes the breade and wine which were chosen and taken of the almes brought thether for the poore and were consecrated that is to say assigned and deputed to the holy sacred vse of the supper The other kinde is the memorie of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christ celebrated and repeated in all the action of the Supper which for this reason is called sacrifice by S. Iohn Chrisostome vpon the Epistle to the Hebrues his wordes be these We do euery day no other sacrifice than that of Iesus Christ no rather saith he in correcting him selfe we make the memorie of the same sacrifice S. Ambrose cals it the memorie of our redemption to the ende that we remembring our Redéemer may obtaine of him to multiply his graces vpon vs S. Augustine propones it also more cleare vnder a comparison of the daies of the passion resurrection of Iesus Christ which he applies in this maner Often times wheÌ„ the feast of Easter approcheth we vse this maner of speaking to morow or within two daies we haue the passion or the resurrection of Iesus Christ It cannot be properly vnderstand of the daye that Christ suffered death which is past long since but onely of the memory of his death the which is solemnised and celebrated as vpon that day euery yeare A litle after he addeth to apropriate his comparison hath not Iesus Christe bene offered in himselfe one onely time and yet in the Sacrament of the Supper not onely the day of Easter but euery day he is offered to the people In an other place the flesh and bloud of this sacrifice afore the comming of Iesus Christ were promised by the figures of sacrifices in the passion of Iesus Christ they were deliuered vp and offered in truth And since Iesus Christ ascended into heauen they are celebrated by the sacrament of memorie By these places and many other like we maye deduce that the fathers haue often called the supper sacrifice bicause in it the memory of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ is restored and celebrated The name of sacrifice is also often times applyed by the auncientes to the almes brought by the faithfull in the supper as by Iustine Martyr in the second Apologie by S. Augustine in his .20 boke chap. 20. against Faustus by S. Ciprian in his booke of the almes by S. Chrisostome hom 46. vpon S. Mathew which may also be verified euen by the canon of the Masse where it is sayd we offer to thy maiestie part of thy giftes and benefites the same to be referred to the almes of the faithfull offered by the Minister to God in the name of all the church Sometimes the prayers which were made there were called sacrifices as Cyprian vpon the dominicall prayer and Eusebius in the .vij. of the Ecclesiasticall history Tertullian in the third booke against Marcion where alledging the place of Malachie of the cleane offring which ought to be made to God from the sunne rising tyll the settyng of the same saith it ought to be vnderstand of the Hymnes and prayses to God which S. Ierome also confirmes in hys exposition vpon the sayd place For conclusion of this matter we say that all the places of the bookes of the auncientes wherein touching the matter of the supper is mencion made of the sacrifice ought to be referred to one of the sayd kindes neither can it be found that either they haue sayd written or thought that there was other sacrifice propiciatorie than onelye that whiche Iesus Christ hath once offered on the crosse in his proper body for our redemption by which meane it is sure that he ought to be acknowledged in the Christian church sacrificator of the new testament And touching the other sacrifices as that of a contrite hart mortification of the flesh of thankes geuyng and almes and the pronouncement and memory of the death of Iesus Christ we saye that generallye it belonges to the church to offer them and that there is neither faithfull nor any member in all the body of the Church who for this respect is not sacrificature as S. Peter saith in his first Epistle chap. 2. and S. Iohn in the Apocalips chap. 1. and that for that reason we ought to offer in the Supper such sacrifices vnto God as appeares euen by the canon of their Masse by them euill vnderstanded applied
vocation is necessary to suche effecte But not that this vocation is the imposition which they pretend assuring our selues that our vocation is more lawfull and better grounded than that of the Doctors Where the Doctors in the Article folowing alleage that we haue not Answered them to their sufficient liking touching the partes of the sacrament and the woord required for the consecration of the matter in the same we Aunswer that in our wrytings is no ambiguitie no darke sense nor any inuolution but suche as the Doctors list to finde there wherin as we lay our selues vppon the iudgement of the vpright hearers So also it becomes no more straunge to vs that the doctors chalenge vs of darke wryting than it was to S. Paul that his gospell was hid and couered to those that perished whose vnderstandings the God of this world had blinded Touching the presence of Iesus Christe in the supper wherin they would vrge vs to declare more amplie than in our former Aunswer we say we haue Aunswered sufficient clearly notwithstanding the doctors rest not satisfied wherof we make no greate maruell as knowing that they haue seldome in custome to be contented onlesse we consent both to their demaundes and desires which we are not nowe setled to do and much lesse that our Aunswer excéede the limits and bounds of the scripture neither in this Article of the supper nor in others but onely to folow the phrases and manners of spéeche of the same as neere as we can possibly By meane wherof for a full and resolute Aunswer we acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christe whether in or out of the supper than that which Iesus Christ declares in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn who eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud he hath life euerlasting also he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloude he dwelles in me and I in him as the liuing Father hath sent me so I goe thither bicause of my father and he that shall eate me shall liue also bicause of me Vppon the last Article which is of the concomitance we Aunswer that the Doctors demaunde was not so harde that we conceiued it not only we dissembled it as not to lose time to speake and write of such dreames wherin also we iudged the Doctors of sufficient suttletie to vnderstande that in denying them Transubstantiation was not to approue their concomitance And nowe to satisfie them we make this addition not to seke to know more than that which Iesus Christ teacheth in his woord that in the supper to participate in his flesh crucified and blud shed for remission of sinnes we must take and eat the bread and drinke the wine which are administred and not deuide or separate them in any sort the same being also defended by the Canons De confecr dist 2. Cum omne crimen Wedensday the fourtenth of August the yeare aforesaide This wryting being dispatched and sent away the Ministers not long after went to the Lord of Neuers with declaration that for their parts they had at large handled this coÌ„ference as finding the doctors by their impertinent and vain questions hitherto to séeke only to winne time without any aduauncement at al of the solution of the supper the Masse And albeit they disguised their demaundes as necessarily to tend to a prepratiue for this disputation yet they contained no other purpose than not at all to enter the conference but rather to kéepe things in suspence vntil they grew weary by which meanes this holy purpose mighte altogither dissolue breake in the ends they besoughte him humbly to aduise the Doctors without vaine varietie or change of matter to auoide the difference and refute that which the Ministers had maintained of the supper and defend that which they had coÌ„demned of the Masse wherein they obtained his promisse which gaue them a hope of profitable matter héereafter and such as might serue to edifie the readers and purge the greatest abuse and error that then occupied the Romishe Church All this notwithstanding there ran immediately a brute thorow the towne that Vigor was falne into a dangerous sicknesse without likelihoode of spéedy recouery the same giuing a feare to the Ministers to be intercepted in their laste hope which they doubted so muche the more as at the instant they were told that Doctor Sainctes was also gone out of Paris to the Cardinal of Loraine by which they could not otherwayes presume than that they should be enforced to a long abode in Paris without any sette exercise to occupie the time as being come thither but by chance for Spyna but made it in his way to passe into Aufon and for the other being Minister to the Church of Orleans it was not long since he was taken out of prison whether he was led in Iune afore vpon a false imputation by the enimies of Gods Churche charging him to be Author of a most pernitious wicked Boke written against the obedience to Kings and Princes by which he founde it very inconuenient for him to tarie so long in the Towne whether he came not at the first willingly For these respects they resolued eftsones to returne to the Lord of Neuers and also to tel him that séeing doctor Sainctes who might haue taried and drawne to him in Vigors place some other at his plesure was departed without any aduertisement of his returne there was also no reason of their abode stil as wel in respect of the incertaintie of their businesse as also that their Churches had neede of them for the exercise of their charge as they desired notwithstaÌ„ding in the end they yelded to their propre incommoditie as to remaine there vntil the Lord of Neuers parted from Paris which shuld be vpon the ende of August being minded then to go to a Lordship of his called Conlomiers for then hauing neither the presence of the Lord of Neuers nor the company of the Doctors the Ministers were at a gaze as hauing nothing to doe nor any man to dispute withall Vpon these declarations the Lorde of Neuers deliuered them their pasport in wryting signed Lodouico de Gonzague with promisse to send vnto them the Answer of the Doctors that by the meane of the Lord de Buci S. Georg who vndertoke the charge of the businesse The Ministers for their parts promised also to be ready to returne to Paris either els to Answer from the place where they should remaine as often as the Doctors would wryte This businesse being thus setled the Ministers departed immediatly with expectation of some spéedie newes froÌ„ the Doctors from whom as yet they haue hard neither argumeÌ„t nor effect only they haue hard that thorow the citie of Paris there hathe bene publike sale of certaine wrytings within whose titles is included this woord of conference as to make séeme to the worlde that they contained matter touching the former disputations this policie was not without great profite to the Printers so vehemente was the desire of men to knowe the truthe for whose satisfying and contentment we thought good to spred abrode the matter as it passed in déede reseruing till an other time to publish that which the doctors would wryte against it if they will wryte at all and also the Ministers Answeres which shall neuer faile In the meane while let euery one make his profite of the present Contentes with prayer to the Father of all lighte to poure more and more the cleare lighte of his spirite vpon his Church in the true vnderstanding of his holy woorde for the restoring and aduauncement of the spirituall kingdom of Iesus Christe his Sonne our Lorde FINIS 2. Tim. 3. 2 Pet. Rom. 15. Iames 1. Luke 16. Luke 2. Sorbonae a College of Papists in Paris Cap. 7.18 Rom. 12.6 Cap 59. 21. Deut. 28. Rom. 8.9 Chap. 2.20.27 1. Tim 3 15 Psal. 30. Chap. 13. Hebrues 13. Rom. 10. Hebr. 11. Rom. 10. Iohn 24. Luk. 24. Hebr 12. Iohn 8. 1. Timo. 2 Hebr. 6. Actor 12. Actor 5. Luke 24 Lib. 4. Cap. 17. Sect. 29. Hebr. 4.14 Iohan. 12. Act. 7. King. 1.11 Iohn 6. Ephe. 2. Psal. 7.5.2.8 1. Cor. 15. 2. Cor. 6. 1. Cor. 1. Iohn 14 Ephe. 3. Iohn 17. 1. Cor. 4.13 Rom. 10. Iohn 6. 1. Cor. 10. Math. 26. 1. Cor. 11. Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Tit. 3. epist. â—3 â— Corrin 1. Cor. 1. In a Sermon of the supper Chap. 16. Hom. 17. epist. 29. Agaynst Faustine 1. Cor. 11. Sermo 3. ad Ephesi