with the same Medicine that some have cured sick persons with holy Bread and Oyl which indeed is the most likely of them all as being good Food and good Medicine And although not so much as a Chicken is now a days cured of the Pip by holy Water yet upon all Occasions they use it and the common people throw it upon Childrens Cradles and sick Cows horns and upon them that they think bewitched or blasted and if they recover by any means it is imputed to the Holy-water and so the Simplicity of Christian Religion the glory of our Dependance upon God and the Holiness and mystery of Sacraments are disordered and dishonour'd Thus the Israelites did when they fell to Idolatry they joyned themselves to Baal Peor and eat the Sacrifices of the dead thus they provoked him to anger with their Inventions Psal 106.28 29. and v. 39. Thus were they defiled with their own Works and went a whoring with their own Inventions Child Is there any thing else that they teach of the Sacraments to be observed Father Yes There is yet one great Instance more of their Irreligion they are taught to rely upon the Sacraments with so little of moral and vertuous Dispositions that the Efficacy of one is made to lessen the Necessity of the other and the Sacraments are taught to be so effectual by an inherent Vertue that they are not so much made the Instruments of Vertue as the Supplement not so much to encrease as to make amends for the want of Grace contrary to that of the Apostle Whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this Cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup 1 Cor. 11.27 28. Child By this I suppose they do not think Repentance is needful to fit and prepare us for the Lords-table I pray Sir what do they teach concerning that Duty Father They are so loose in the Doctrine of Repentance that you cannot imagine it I shall therefore shew you what we and they teach concerning that Duty and conclude this Discourse Child I pray Sir first shew me then what we teach concerning Repentance Father Our Protestant Doctors teach that Repentance is an inward and true sorrow for Sin especially that we have offended so gracious a God and so loving a Father together with a settled purpose of Heart and a careful endeavour to leave all our Sins and to live a Christian Life according to all God's Commandments The Sacrifices of God are a broken Spirit a broken and a contrite Heart O God thou wilt not despise Ps 51.17 Child How is this Grace wrought in us Father 'T is wrought in us partly by the threatning of the Law and the fear of God's Judgments but especially increased by feeling the Fruit of Christ's Death whereby we have power to hate Sin and to leave it Child Wherein doth Repentance properly consist Father In a through changing of our purpose and desires from the Evil which God's word rebuketh in us to the good which it requireth of us Child Can men repent of themselves or when they list Father No for it is the gift of God given to them that are born again Child When is this Repentance to be practised Father The practice of Repentance ought to be a continual abhorring of Evil and cleaving unto that which is good for as much time as remains in the Flesh after our Confusion yet at some times there ought to be a more special practice and renewing thereof as after grievous Falls as we see in David Psal 51. and in fear of eminent Judgments which the Prophet calls for Amos 4.12 Because I will do this unto thee prepare to meet thy God O Israel Or when we should fit our selves to receive special mercies as when we come to the Lord's Table c. Child You have shewed me the Protestant Doctrine of Repentance I pray God give me Grace to practise it all the dayes of my life But I pray Sir Do not the Papists teach the same Father No. They teach 1. That a Sinner is not bound to repent of his Sin presently if it be done at any time 't is sufficient Some say he is bound by the Precept of the Church to repent upon the great Holidays others say once a year at Easter but 't is the general opinion that by the Law of God they are not tied to so much but only to repent in the danger or Article of Death from whence some conclude that to refuse to repent is but a venial sin but others say 't is none at all Child This seems to me to be intolerable Have they any more such Doctrines Father Alas Child this is but the beginning of sorrows The next thing therefore that I shall mention is their Doctrines concerning Contrition which when it is true and cordial for having sinn'd against God the the Church of Rome does not allow it to be of any value unless it be joyn'd with a desire to confess their Sins unto a Priest and this is decreed by the Councel of Trent contrary to all Scripture to the Doctrine of the Prophets Ezek. 18.30 Repent and turn your selves from all your Transgressions so Iniquity shall not be your ruine to the Doctrine of the Apostles Repent and be converted that your sins may be blotted out Act. 3.19 But this is not all for as Contrition without Confession will not reconcile us to God so Attrition as they call it proceeding from fear of damnation together with their Sacrament will do as well There is no necessity of Contrition at all If a man live a wicked life 60 or 80 years together yet if in the Article of his Death he be but a little sorrowful for his Sins and though this Sorrow hath in it no love of God but only a fear of Hell if the Priest absolves him he passes him instantly into a state of Salvation The Priest with two fingers and a thumb can do his work for him in a moment Child Vpon these terms it is a wonder that all wicked men in the World are not Papists where they may live so merrily and dye so securely but is not Confession a troublesome thing to them Father Not at all They have an easie formal way of it I confess unto Almighty God to the Blessed V. Mary to blessed Michael the Archangel to blessed Jo. Baptist to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul to all the Saints and to you my Ghostly Father that I have very much sinned in thought word and deed through my fault through my fault through my exceeding great fault Therefore I beseech thee B. Virgin Mary blessed Michael the Archangel blessed John Baptist the holy Apostles Peter and Paul all the Saints and you my Ghostly Father to pray unto our Lord God for me And when they see Princes and Prelates Women and Boyes do the same every
ten twenty or thirty thousand years which brings him in a great Revenue and yet St. Peter says Forasmuch as you know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things as Silver and Gold but with the pretious Blood of Christ 1 Pet. 1.18 Child Have they any more Articles of Faith Father Yes Child The twelfth Article runs thus The Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church of Rome I acknowledge to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I vow swear and promise Obedience to the Bishop of Rome as Successor of B. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Jesus Christ Child This seems to me to be the worst I have heard yet for it makes all Churches subject to Rome and the Pope Lord and Master of all the World Doth the Scripture call the Church of Rome the Mother and Mistress of all Churches Father No Child Rome is not the Mother-church for the Gospel came from Jerusalem Thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer c. And that Repentance and Remission of Sins should be preached in his name among all Nations beginning at Jerusalem Luc. 24.46.47 Jerusalem which is above is free which is the Mother of us all Gal. 4.26 Neither is it the Mistress of all Churches It seemeth good unto the Holy Ghost and to us saith the Apostles and Elders and the whole Church assembled at Jerusalem Act. 15.22 23 28 29. to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things Child But the Pope it seems requires obedience from all Christians doth the Scripture command any such thing Father The Scripture commands obedience to our Pastors but not to the Pope Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your Souls as they that must give account Heb. 13.7 Child Is the Popedom an Office in the Ministry Father No. He gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting the work of the Ministry and for the edifying of the Body of Christ Eph. 4.11 12. Child Was St. Peter Prince of the Apostles Father No. Ye know that the Princes of the Gentiles exercise Dominion over them and they that are great exercise Authority upon them But it shall not be so among you but whosoever will be great among you let him be your Servant Matth. 20.25 26. Child Is the Pope St. Peter's Successor Father Truly Child I know not 't is probable he never was at Rome St. Paul makes no mention of him neither in his Epistle to the Romans nor in any of his Epistles from Rome and St. Peter himself writes not to the Romans but to the Jews scattered throughout Pontus Galatia Capadocia Asia and Bithynia 1 Pet. 1.1 and subscribes his Epistle from Babylon chap. 5.13 so that unless Rome be Babylon 't is not likely St. Peter was there Child But is there not one Visible Head of the Church Father No. We are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone Eph. 2.20 There is one Body and one Spirit even as you are called in one hope of your Calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all Eph. 4.4 5 6. Child But was not St. Peter the great Apostle of the Gentiles Father No. But contrariwise when they saw that the Gospel of the Uncircumcision was committed unto me as the Gospel of the Circumcision was unto Peter for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the Apostleship of the Circumcision the same was mighty in me towards the Gentiles And when James Cephas and John who seemed to be Pillars perceived the Grace that was given unto me they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of Fellowship that we should go to the Heathen and they unto the Circumcision Gal. 2.7 8 9. Child By all this I perceive that neither the Pope nor St. Peter himself hath or had any Dominion or Authority over the Church of Christ and yet I have heard that the Pope claims Authority to depose Kings Is that lawful Father No. St. Paul sayes Put them in mind to be subject to Principalities and Powers to obey Magistrates to be ready to every good work Tit. 3.1 And St. Peter is more plain and gives the Supremacy to Kings Submit your selves to every Ordinance of Man for the Lords sake whether it be to the King as Supreme or unto Governours as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil Doers and for the praise of them that do well for so is the Will of God 1 Pet. 2.13 14. Child Doth not the Pope also absolve from Oaths of Allegiance Father Yes And yet Solomon sayes I counsel thee to keep the Kings commandement and that in regard of the Oath of God Eccl. 8.2 Child Doth he claim any other Power Father Yes He can make right wrong and Justice Injustice say the Jesuits and they are bound to believe he commands well whatsoever the thing be and that all things enjoyned are just and good so good that nothing better could be done so that they speak modestly of his Power that say he can dispence with the Commandements of God And yet Christ sayes Whosoever shall break one of these least Commandements and shall teach men so he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven Matth. 5.19 Child Can such a man as this be a Christian Bishop or be termed his Holiness Father No. The Scripture calls him the Man of Sin the Son of Perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God 2 Thes 2.3 4. Child Doth the Scripture describe him by any other marks Father Yes v. 9. Even him whose coming is after the working of Sathan with all Power and Signs and lying Wonders Child Indeed I have heard the Priests and Jesuits of Rome pretend to cast out Devils and work Miracles Do they so in England Father Yes Ever and anon some Popish Person or other is possessed and then a Priest comes and exorcises him and casts out the Devil but their juggling tricks are usually discovered Such an one was the Boy of Bilson in Staffordshire whose tricks were all laid open before the Judge and Grand Jury at Stafford Assizes by the Bishop of the Diocese Child Doth not St. John also describe him Father Yes Revel 7.3 4 5 6. I saw a woman sit upon a Scarlet-colour'd Beast full of Names of Blasphemy having seven Heads and ten Horns And the Woman was array'd in Purple and Scarlet colour and decked with Gold and pretious Stones and Pearls having a golden Cup in her hand full of Abominations and Filthines's of her Fornication And upon her Head was a name written Mystery Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth And I saw the Woman drunken with the Blood of
pray Sir what do we Protestants hold concerning the Law Father We hold that the moral Law commands the perfection of Godliness and Righteousness and directs us in our duties to God and Man Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left Deut. 5.32 Child I pray Sir proceed now to the Commandments in particular as they were delivered by Moses and shew me first what we Protestants teach and then what the Church of Rome teaches concerning them Father I shall do it readily The first Commandment is Thou shalt have no other Gods before me and our Protestant Doctors teach that this Jehovah one in Substance and three in Persons the Creator and Governour of all things and the Redeemer of his People is to be entertained for the only true God in all the powers of the Soul and so Christ opens it Matt. 22.37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart and with all thy Soul and with all thy Mind Child Doth not the Church of Rome expound it so Father No. The Church of Rome teaches to make more Gods than one they pray to the Saints whereby they make them Gods in giving this Divine Property unto them to know the Heart They call the Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven and say she is a Goddess and pray to her to command her Son to help them Nay they make the Pope a God they call him Our Lord God the Pope and they are more careful to obey his commands than the commands of God Child What is the meaning of the second Command Thou shalt not make to thy self any graven Image nor any Likeness of things in Heaven c. Father The meaning of this Commandment is to bind all men to that solemn Form of religious Worship which God himself in his Word prescribeth that we serve him not according to our Fancies but according to his Will What thing soever I command you observe to do it thou shalt not add thereto nor diminish from it Deut. 12.32 Child How do the Papists expound this Command Father They leave it quite out of their Catechisms because 't is so plain against their Image-worship and they divide the tenth into two to make up the number Child What Worship do they give to Images Father The same Worship they give to those whose Image it is as they worship the holy Trinity and Christ so they worship the Images of the Trinity and of Christ Child Did not the Heathens thus worship their Images Father Yes The Papists say they worship their Images with a relative Worship and so did the Heathens and indeed an Image cannot be worshipped with any other Worship Nor does the commandment forbid any other Worship for it is a contradiction to say this is the Image of God and yet this is God and therefore it must be also a contradiction to worship an Image with any other Worship for then it must be that the Image of a thing is that thing whose Image it is But they go yet a little farther the Image of the Cross they worship with divine Honour and though this divine Worship is but relative yet the Cross it self is worshipped terminatively with divine Adoration now if this be not Idolatry I can never be told what is the notion of the word If there can be Idolatry in the Worship of an Image it is certain that a relative divine Worship is this Idolatry for no man that worships an Image can make the Image the last Object either therefore the Heathens were not Idolaters in the worshiping of an Image or else these men are Child What is the sum of the third Command Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord c. Father The Sum of this Command is That we impeach not but by all means advance the glorious name of God in all things whereby he maketh himself known to men Give unto the Lord the Glory due unto his Name worship the Lord in the beauty of Holiness Psal 29.2 Child How do the Papists keep this Command Father They teach that 't is lawful to swear by the Saints and in their common talk they cry out O Lord O Jesu They use the Word Jesu thirty times together and this they take for a peice of Devotion And the Pope dispenseth with all Oaths at his pleasure and teaches that Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks Child What is the meaning of the fourth Command Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day Father It challengeth at the hand of every man one day of seven in every Week and requireth all Persons to separate themselves from their ordinary Labour and all other Exercises that they may attend to the worship of God only Child How do the Papists expound this Command Father They make the Popes Holy dayes equal with the Lords Sabbath and they are more zealous for the Observation of them for they will be sure to keep them but the Sabbath they usually spend in playing at Cards Dice and Tables Child What is the meaning of the fifth Command Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. Father That the Quality of mens Persons and Places in what Estate soever Natural Civil or Ecclesiastical be truly acknowledged and respected for it requires the Performance of all such Duties as one man oweth unto another Render to all their dues Tribute to whom Tribute is due Custom to whom Custom Fear to whom Fear Honour to whom honour Rom. 13.7 Child How do the Papists keep this Commandment Father They disannul it in giving freedom and immunity to to their Clergy from subjection to Civil Authority and in dispensing with Subjects for their Loyalty and Allegiance to their Lawful Princes and with Children and Servants from yielding due help service and obedience to their Parents and Masters Child What is the summe and meaning of the sixth Commandment Thou shalt not murder Father That the Life and Person of man be by man not impeached but preserved Surely the Bloud of your Lives will I require At the hand of every mans Brother will I require the Life of man Gen. 9.5 Child How do the Papists keep this Commandment Father They have Houses of Refuge which they call Sanctuaries wherein Murderers live in Safety They hold it meritorious to poyson or stab any man for the advancement of the Catholick Cause and 't is a Position with them though a damnable one That Princes excommunicate by the Pope may be murdered by their Subjects Child What is the meaning of the seventh Commandment Thou shalt not commit Adultery Father That all Uncleanness and Impurity be avoided and Chastity by all means preserved Having these Promises let us cleanse our selves from all filthiness of the Flesh and Spirit perfecting holiness in the Fear of God 2 Cor. 7.1 Child How do the Papists keep this Command Father They give Divorces for Marriages in the fourth degree and