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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	certain_a	company_n	good_a	35	3	2.1572	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33377	Mr. Claude's answer to Monsieur de Meaux's book, intituled, A conference with Mr. Claude with his letter to a friend, wherein he answers a discourse of M. de Condom, now Bishop of Meaux, concerning the Church.; Reponse au livre de Monsieur l'évesque de Meaux, intitulé Conférence avec M. Claude. English	Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.; Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.	1687 (1687)	Wing C4591; ESTC R17732	130,139	128

triumphant in Heaven that which is now militant on Earth and that which is not yet in the world but shall be in succeeding Ages All these three Churches do really make but one because united together in the eternal purpose of God appointed to know one and the same Word to partake of one and the same Spirit and to inherit one and the same Glory They are but one Family for they have the same Father the same Rights and Priviledges the same Hopes and are called to the same Duties They are but one body under the protection and Guidance of Jesus Christ their only Head who is as the Scripture says The same yesterday to day and for ever And this is our sense of the Church called in the Creed Catholick or Universal The Latitude we here take the Church in hath displeased M. de Condom he says we put a wrong sense upon the Article and to understand it thus is in effect to reject it He is of opinion it should be confined to this part upon Earth which he defines A Society making profession to believe c. But in the first place M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that Saint Augustine however hath taught us to explain the Church in our Creed after this manner That Father indeed went farther than we do for he hath not scrupled to include in this notion the Angels confirmed in Grace Here says he and 't is in his very Exposition of the Creed that he says it we must take the Church whole and entire not only for that part of it upon earth which praises the name of God from the rising of the Sun unto the going down thereof singing to God a new Song since their deliverance from their former Captivity but also for that other part which is in Heaven and never was separated from the Divine presence the Blessed and Holy Angels The Body of Christ says he in another place is the Church not this or that Church but which is diffused over the whole world not that which is made up of men now alive but consisting of those which have been before us and those which shall come after us even to the end of the world For the whole Church being composed of all the Faithful in as much as all the Faithful are the Members of Jesus Christ 〈◊〉 Jesus Christ for its Head and this Head though exalted high in the Heavens does notwithstanding still continue to govern his body M. de Condom must likewise allow us to tell him that the Catechism of the Council of Trent hath given this sense of the Church in our Creed The Church it says and 't is in the very Explication of this Article hath two parts one of which is called Triumphant the other Militant The Triumphant is that illustrious assembly of the Blessed and all those who have vanquished and triumph'd over the World the Flesh and the Devil and who being now delivered from the miseries of this life enjoy everlasting rest and felicity The Church Militant is the company of all the Faithful yet alive upon earth which is therefore called Militant because they are engaged in a perpetual war with these most deadly enemies Satan the World and the Flesh Yet must we not from hence imagine that they are two distinct Churches but as was said two parts of one and the same Church one of which is gone before and already possest of its Heavenly Country The other daily following after till at length being united with our Saviour it shall rest above in Eternal happiness Again We must desire M. de Condom's leave to say that the very Title of Catholick or Vniversal used in the Creed does lead us to this extended notion of the Church This to me seems evident for two reasons First that this Title is given the Church to distinguish it from all false Churches which do neither exist always nor every where but spring up and die away in some particular places and at some certain times as having no sound nor lasting principle Secondly that this Title was to distinguish it from particular Churches which are but members of this great Body collected by Christ and separated from the world that he might sanctifie it to himself Whence it follows that when we say the Vniversal or Catholick Church by this is plainly meant the Church intire and at large without exception or limitation either as to time or place Lastly M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that we are brought to this notion by what follows in the Creed The Communion of Saints which terms explain this of the Catholick Church For the Saints are not only persons now living upon Earth but those also that reign in Heaven and those which shall be to the worlds end and 't is with all these that we are in Communion If the Communion of Saints were to be understood of such only as make profession to believe in Jesus Christ and govern themselves by his word This could be no other than an external Communion by living under the same Ministry and partaking of the same Sacraments which good and bad men enjoy equally And certainly this would fall far short of so great so Majestick an expression and consequently could not deserve a room in our Creed But says M. de Condom in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of faith this term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians I own it must be taken in its most proper and most natural sense but even this supplies us with a fresh argument against him it being certain that the most proper and most natural sense is to take the Vniversal Church for the company of all those that are truly the faithful separated from the world by the Word and Holy Spirit of God according to the purpose of his Election from the beginning to the end of all things I acknowledg the word Church when used in a Civil sense as for instance when spoken of the people of Israel does most properly signifie an external and visible company and so far I am of M. de Condom's mind both as to what he urges out of the Acts and from the Septuagint Translation But still I assert that this word when applied to a Christian Society does not properly denote a visible Congregation or an outward profession of the Faith and no more but chiefly an inward calling a spiritual communion and such as that outward is only a consequence of and does depend upon A man must be utterly ignorant of Christianity to deny this truth The Church then is a name for something within and not barely to signifie what passes without so that implying an inward communion when the Title of Vniversal is put to it it must needs mean the whole body of true and faithful Christians By the same reason I affirm this to be its most natural

purify her that she may be a peculiar people zealous of good works He will build her upon himself to be an holy Temple an habitation of God through the spirit He will wrde his laws in their hearts and engrave them in their minds He will take away the heart of stone and give them an heart of flesh a new heart and a new spirit How is it possible that nothing of all this should surprise the Doctors of the Romish Communion nor stagger their confidence of finding these Promises fulfilled as well in the bad as the good the just as well as unjust For in short if wicked men who have no more than external profession become by virtue of that profession really and truly Members of the Church the Promises concern them and they have a right to them in common with others for certainly they concern as many as make up the Body of Christ Now shall we say that notwithstanding these are drowned in vice Yet the Gates of Hell shall never prevail against them provided they can but counterfeit dexterously Shall we say that tho gangrened and putrified from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot it matters not They shall be without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish so they do but continue in an external profession Shall we say that tho they have no Faith no Justice no Piety they need not trouble themselves Jesus Christ will be with them alway by the presence of his Holy Spirit provided they can but maintain a fair outside Shall we say that although they prostitute themselves to all wickedness and villany they need not be so much concerned Jesus Christ will not fail to redeem them from all iniquity and to make of them a peculiar people zealous of good works provided they be not wanting in dissimulation Here is no invidious aggravation in all this The Promises of Christ are plain matters of fact delivered expresly in Scripture in favour of the Church The defining of the Church by a bare external profession is another plain matter of fact to be seen through all the Writers of that Communion and particularly this discourse of M. de Condom The applying these Promises to the Church thus defined is what M. de Condom stitly contends for and makes it an inducement to peoples conversion So that I do not in the least exaggerate nor do I see what reply they can make To talk of two true Churches even in Christ's sight one to which the Promises belong as such viz. That of True Believers and another to which they do not belong as such viz. That whose essence consists in the external profession besides that it would be advancing a notion contrary to Scripture and Reason which inform us but of one true Church would be to argue to no purpose for wherefore should we argue about a Church to which the Promises of Jesus Christ have no relation Why should we invest with such glorious and divine priviledges a Church to which Christ hath promised nothing at all Or what reason have we with a blind obedience to submit to a Church where it may happen that wicked men and Enemies of God may get the upper hand and the Spirit of Christ bear no Rule in it To say we ought to distinguish between two kinds of Promises one such as respect inward Sanctification and Salvation the other respecting the perpetual Visibility of the Ministry and its Infallibility in the external profession of the Truth and that the first sort are peculiar to the Elect and true Believers in the Church but the other belong to the whole Body of that Society making Profession besides that this would be to start a Division of the Promises which the Scripture divided not for all made there are made to one and the same Body to one and the same Church without distinction besides that this would be to frame Promises that never were given such as a perpetual Infallibility of the Ministry in the external Profession of the Truth as we lately saw Besides this I say it is plainly to suppose that the Church as a Church hath no promises made her of Sanctification and Salvation and so consequently 't is to oppose Scripture which makes them to her formally under the name and title of a Church The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against my Church says Christ Christ loved the Church says St. Paul and gave himself for it that he might sanctifie it and present it to himself a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing but that it should be holy and without blemish The Lord says the Apostle nourishes and cherishes the Church all these Promises imply Sanctification and Salvation What can we then with reason say to this matter except what was said upon the foregoing Question to wit That we sometimes form an Idea of the Church by a Judgment of Charity so looking upon all external Professors in general to be true Believers and by this Judgment we include in our Notion abundance of People who really and indeed are not of the Church and consequently have no title to the Promises of Jesus Christ But this Notion is rectified by a Judgment of Reflection Exactness and Truths formed from the Idea's which Scripture and right Reason give us of the true Church restraining it to true Believers only and that the Promises of Scripture must be applyed to it in this last true exact Notion only Add to this that this true Church being intermixt with the counterfeit is not indeed so distinctly visible that we can say with certainly this or that particular man is a true Believer for this is proper to God alone but that it is however visible in a sure though indistinct manner which will go so far as to affirm That there are true Pelievers in such an external Profession Add further that this Church thus visible becomes more or less so according as Corruptions and Disorders are more or less predominant in their exteriour Society and that sometimes it is mightily celipsed partly through the prevalence of worldly superstitious and such like Persons partly through the infirmities of most true Believers but still that it never was absolutely invisible Add once more that this Church now upon Earth together with that in Heaven and that which shall spring up in succeeding Ages are all three that Vniversal Church we profess to believe in our Creed Add I say these three last Propositions to the two foregoing and so you will comprise all I have advanced hitherto you will be furnished with certain uncontestable Principles grounded upon Scripture upon Reason upon the Fathers and upon experience by the help of which you will be able with great ease to throw off all those difficulties usually started by the Romanists upon this Subject This will be further evidenced by what I am in the next place about to say Natural and necessary Consequences of the

even of a private Doctor but in as much as both Assemblies and private persons are liable to mistakes a man must not carry on this Judgment of Charity and Humility so far as that he should suffer himself to be blinded by it and when an Assembly or Doctor have really erred not to see it for this would be to stretch things beyond their due bounds For instance said he in the capacity I am in over my Flock it is mens duty to presume favourably of me that I understand the meaning of Scripture better than plain private Persons but for all that they are by no means bound to think me infallible nor fancy it impossible I should ever be mistaken in a point of Doctrine and in such a case a plain private Person is priviledged to think he could understand the Scripture better than I. Private Doctors says Al de Condom are not at all concerned in our Dispute all the World knows private Doctors may err and consequently they can have no title to an absolute obedience The Controversie is concerning the whole Body of an Ecclesiastical Assembly and I expect from you a clear distinct answer to this particular whether you believe single private men can understand the meaning of Scripture better than the whole Body of the Church convened in a Council Mr. Claude replied That he only mentioned private Doctors as an Argument that Christian Humility should not be abused nor made a pretence for men to deny themselves the benefit of their own Eyes that so they might avoid Pride and Presumption For if by M. de Condom's own Confession private Doctors have no right to an absolute Obedience it is neither a proud nor presumptuous Imagination that it may possibly happen we should understand Scripture sometimes better than they tho for the main we are bound to presume in favour of them and that in probability it will be otherwise The case is the same with Assemblies for even these being not Infallible ought not to challenge an absolute Submission and such as God alone hath a just right to That no less a Person than St. Paul hath declared That he had no Dominion over the Corinthians Faith M. de Condom said that quotation was impertinent and desired to know of Mr Claude whether he was not of opinion that an absolute obedience was due to St. Paul The absolute obedience replied Mr. Claude which was due to St. Paul was so to his Divine Doctrines and not his person No more said M de Condom do we pretend that men ought to pay this obedience to the persons of men whereof the Councils consist but to the Holy Ghost by which they are guided according to that profession of the Council at Jerusalem It seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and to us When the Holy Ghost appears in the determinations of Councils as he did in St. Paul's Doctrine and that of the Jerusalem Council then said Mr. Claude this Obedience must be paid never else And this appearance of the Holy Ghost consisteth in the Councils decisions being framed according to the Word of God Still M. de Condom urged that the dispute was not concerning the Word of God but the true meaning of that Word That distinction says Mr. Claude signifies nothing at all because the true meaning of the Word of God and the Word it self are but one and the same thing Then M. de Condom returned to the business of the Independents and urged that according to Mr. Claude's principle there was no remedy for the avoiding Independency nor any prevention that there should not be as many different Religions as Parishes nay as many as there be single persons That the Independents did not cast off Assemblies so far as concerned instruction only they did not allow them in any Authoritative decisions and that in this the Pretended Reformed agreed with them He beat upon this over and over again for a long time together to all which Mr. Claude return'd the same answer he had done before viz. That there was not indeed any humane means of Certainty and Infallibility which could prevent the exorbitant errors of mens minds but there was a certain and infallible Divine one even the Holy Spirit of God imparted to his True Believers That Synods and other Assemblies were means of mighty use and very proper for this purpose and the Independents condemnation was for rejecting these last and not for refusing to Assemblies a full and Absoute Power of determining matters in Controversy That although the Protestants did not allow such Assemblies a supreme and unbounded Authority yet they did allow them as much as the Ministers and Dispensers of God's Word are capable of At this rate said M. de Condom then we shall never have done disputing I ask you therefore once more Sir whether you believe that single and private persons can understand the meaning of God's Word better than the whole Church convened in Council Mr Claude told him he had answered that Question already to wit that it does not usually fall out so and that further 't is our duty to hope the best of an Ecclesiastical Assembly but still it might come to pass that through the prevalency of mens passions and worldly Interests the decisions of such Assemblies might be contrary to Truth You must not run back thus to Interests and Passions said M. de Condom but answer my question in one word by saying either Yes or No. Mens Passions and worldly Interests said Mr. Claude are premised here with a great deal of Reason because these are the main things that occasion erroneous determinations but since you are not willing to hear of them my answer must be with this distinction That God does not suffer it commonly so to be but absolutely speaking it is possible it should be so M. de Condom said that was as much as he desired and that it was the most absurd thing in the World to believe it so much as possible for a single Man and a private person to understand the meaning of Scripture better than the whole Church met together in Council Mr. Claude replied that he was amazed to hear M. de Condom cry out upon That as such a mighty absurdity which resulted merely from the freedom used by God in dispensing his Grace That supposing the Controversy to concern such means of knowledg as are purely humane it would indeed be absurd to say that a single and private person should be wiser than a whole Assembly and that this would be then a principle of pride and presumption But the matter now treated of is the illumination of the Holy Spirit which bloweth where it listeth and God can give it to a private single person and yet not give it to a whole Assembly That of this there was an eminent instance in our Saviours time as he himself said I thank thee O Father Lord of Heaven and Earth for that thou hast bid these things from

is necessary to Salvation in despight of all temptations to the contrary from Hell the World and their own Infirmities This I own our Lord hath promised Now this in my opinion is a thing sufficently illustrious and clear to serve for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises For when we see our Brethren dye and do our selves dye in the bosom of Truth and Piety this denotes Jesus Christ's Grace sensibly enough If they understand over and above this a perpetual subsistence of the Ministry in such a condition as is sufficient for the Salvation of God's Elect mangre all the oppositions of Hell or the disorders of the Ministers themselves this I do likewise acknowledg to be promised by Jesus Christ and herein we have a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises For in the midst of so many infirmities as the Faithful are liable to in the midst of so many Thorns as encompass and incumber the Lilies of the Son of God in the midst of so many superstitious profane heretical designing worldly-minded lukewarm and indifferent people that are exteriour Professors and often Officers in the Church that God should still preserve the Ministry so far as is necessary for nourishing and cherishing his Elect and true Believers and to bring them safe to Heaven is a sensible indication of the strength of our Saviours Words That the Gates of Hell should not prevail against it He does not say the Gates of Hell shall never fight against it nor that they shall never get any advantages over it He supposes that they shall encounter it that they shall very much endamage it that they shall sometimes reduce it to great extremities But he assures us they shall not prevail In this the Assistance and perpetual Providence of Christ is the more gloriously illustrated that the Church can say of her self Many a time have they vexed me from my youth up but they have not prevailed against me M. de Condom alledges next those words of our Saviour Go and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And to I am with you always even unto the end of the world Upon which Text M. de Condom puts this Comment Teaching with you Baptizing with you Instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church and exteriour Ministry 'T is with you 't is with those who shall succeed you 't is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the consummation of the World alway without interruption For there shall not be any one moment in which I will leave you but tho absent in Body I will be always present by my holy Spirit I own that Christ speaks there to his Church that he orders it to Baptize to Teach and consequently gives it a Ministry which he commands to be exercised therein I acknowledg moreover that he promises to be with it to Teach with it till the consummation of the World without interruption but this is not the point in controversy All our business is to know what Church this is M. de Condom will have it all that Society that makes profession to believe c. we think it to be that which making profession to believe does so really and sincerely He supposes his Proposition without offering Arguments for it but we prove ours For no man can say that Christ is with wicked men and hypocrites by the presence of his Holy Spirit always without interruption that there is never any moment when he leaves them even to the Consummation of the World This can be affirmed of none but the Society of true Believrs Such a Society there will always be and Jesus Christ always in the midst of them baptizing and instructing with them For tho the mouth and hand of his enemies may often exercise the outward acts of the Ministry and often with abundance of impurity and disorder yet Jesus Christ does for ever preserve his faithful under the Ministry which is rightfully theirs he does ever baptize and teach them even by wicked Ministers so as by his wonderful Providence never to suffer so fatal a corruption in the Ministry as should render it insufficient to cherish the Faith of his Elect even to the conclusion of the World To the same purpose it is manifest St. Paul speaks of the design and duration of the Evangelical Ministry Jesus Christ hath given some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastours and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ That is says M. de Condom the Ecclesiastical Ministry shall last without any discontinuance till the general Resurrection I say once again this is not the Point in Controversy The Ministry shall last to the end of the World and in such a degree and condition too as may suffice for the edifying of the Body of Christ for the conducting all his Elect and true Believers to that perfection St. Paul speaks of Our concern is to know two things The first whether This shall be constantly preserved from corruption and impurity and continue in the state wherein Christ and his Apostles left it us or whether the Tares sown by the Enemy in the Lord's Field by night shall not vitiate it The second whether its uninterrupted continuance must wholly consist in being ordinarily transmitted from one Minister to another in the way we call exteriour or personal succession or whether it may not happen that the Church should sometime take away her Ministry from them who have palpably abused it and commit it to others who she may hope will use it better Each of these two are the matters in dispute and not that which M. de Condom was pleased to determine from that place of St. Paul Give me leave Sir to run over these wonderful Promises of Jesus Christ to his Church and some others of the same nature once more The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her He will present her without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish He will love and cherish her as his own flesh and bones He will bring her in the unity of the faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God to the measure of a perfect man He will be in the midst of her at solemn Assemblies He will continue with her to the end of the World He will give his spirit to abide with her for ever He will redeem her from all iniquity and