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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14614	The copies of certaine letters vvhich haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of religion Concerning the generall motiues to the Romane obedience. Betweene Master Iames Wadesworth, a late pensioner of the holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. Bedell a minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in Suffolke.	Wadsworth, James, 1572?-1623.; Bedell, William, 1571-1642. aut; Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656.	1624 (1624)	STC 24925; ESTC S119341	112,807	174

become no true Church to wit when it shall so erre damnably But then it followes not There is now no saluation in it and therefore come out of it now When you shew that I shall account you haue done wisely to goe out of it Shew that in anie one point and take me with you In the meane while for my part I shall sooner trust that chapman that shall say to me Loe here is a perfect yard I will measure as truely as I can and when I haue done take the yard and measure it your selfe then him that shall say here is thus much yee shall not neede to measure it but take it on my word yea though one of his Apprentices should stand by and say he could not deceiue mee though hee would as Benedictus a Benedictus tels the present Pope Volens nolens errare non potes Where you relate your endeauour to defend the Church of England and tell of the Puritanes reiecting those Arguments you could vse from the authoritie of the Church and of the ancient Doctors interpreting Scriptures against them flying to their owne arrogant spirit I cannot excuse them for the former nor subscribe to your accusation in the latter Perhaps you haue met with some more fanaticall Brownists or Anadaptists whom here you call Puritans But these that are commonly so called which differ from the Church of England about Church gouernment and ceremonies onely giue indeede to little to the authoritie of men how holy learned or ancient soeuer Which is their fault and their great fault especially in matters of this nature yet they flye not to their owne spirit as you charge them That which you adde that you perceiued the most Protestants did frame the like euasions when you came to answere the Arguments against them on the other side when you shall shew this in particulars I shall beleeue it In the meane while I beleeue you thought so for commonly mediocrities are aggrauated with the hatred slandered with the names of both extreames But in the question betweene the Popish faction and vs you might easily haue discerned why the argument from bare authoritie is not of such validitie For ceremonies and matters of order may be ordered by wise men are not the worse but the better if they be ancient yea if they be common to vs with Rome which Puritans will by no meanes allow In doctrin if holy men yea if an Angell from heauen shall innouate any thing wee are not to admit it Now the controuersies betweene the Romanists and vs are most about doctrine and they exceede as much in extolling the authoritie of the ancients in their priuate opinions and incommodious and strained speeches as the Puritans in depressing them We hold the meane and giue as much to the authoritie and testimonies of the Fathers as may stand with the truth of holy Scriptures and as themselues deferre to the writing of others or require to be giuen to their owne Next you tell of your following their opinion who would make the Church of England and the Church of Rome still to be all one in Essentiall points and the differences to be accidentall Confessing the Church of Rome to be a true Church though sicke or corrupted and the Protestants to be derined from it and reformed This opinion is not onely as you write fauoured of many great Schollers in England but is the common opinion of all the best Diuines of the reformed Churches that are or haue beene in the world as I shewed in part of another worke which as I remember you had a sight of Wherein yet I feare you mistake the tearme accidentall which doth no● import that our differences are but sleight and of small confideration but that all those opinions and abuses which we reforme and cut off are not of the Faith but superfluous and ●oraine yea hurtfull and noisome to it as the weedes are to the corne which ouer-grow and choake it And to follow this similitude the state of the Church vnder the Romane obedience and that part which is reformed is like a field ouergrowne all with weedes thistles tares cockle some part whereof is weeded and clensed some part remaines as it was before which makes such a difference to the view as if it were not the same corne But being better considered it will be found all the difference is from the weedes which remaine there and here are taken away Yet neither here perfectly nor all where a like but ac●ording to the industrie of our weeders or conueniencie of the worke with care of the safetie of the good corne By this Parable you may see what is to be hoped of your labour to reconcile most of our particular controuersies For although I doubt not but in some it may be performed where the difference is rather verball then reall and in the manner of teaching rather then in the substance of doctrine And if moderate men had the matter in handling the flame of contention in a great many more might be troden downe and slaked suppose the sparkes not all extinct yet in some other it is as possible to make the weede and corne-friends as your and our opinions where there is none other remedy but that of our Sauiour Euery plant that my heauenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out Neither doth this impossibilitie arise more out of the nature of the things then the affection of the persons For the Pope and the Court of Rome which are those that domineere on that side doe no lesse out of the feare of their owne ruine deadly detest all reformation then the reformed out of their present view and former feeling the tyrannie of the Papacie which they see doth excommunicate and put to cruell death all that are of this way And which is a prodigious thing where they tolerate the blasphemous and professed enemies of Christ euen with allowance of the publike exercise of their Religion there doe they burne men professing Christs religion according to the ancient and common rule thereof with that vprightnesse of conscience that if they had as many liues as there be Articles thereof they would giue them all rather then renounce any of them As for the Protestants making the Pope Antichrist I know it is a point that inrageth much at Rome But if the Apostle Saint Paul if Saint Iohn in the Reuelation describe Antichrist so as they that doe but looke vpon the Pope well must be forced to say as the people did of the blinde man in the Gospell some this is ●e others he is very like him if himselfe and his flatterers doe and speake such things as if all others should hold their peace doe in a sort proclaime I am he what can the Protestants doe with the matter I will take the liberty here to relate to you what I saw while I was in Venice the rather because it is not impertinent to our present purpose And though perhaps you may

are matters of Faith For both Faith hath to doe with them and they are fetched by discourse from the first Principles holden by Faith whence our whole Religion is called by Saint Iude the Faith once deliuered to the Saints And the least error in them by consequence ouerthrowes the same principles whence they are deduced That makes some to mooue attention in their Readers to say The questions are not about small matters but of the principall Articles of Religion euen about the foundation As Cu●aeus whom he cites saith the question is of two Articles of Faith First of that which teacheth that in Christ two natures are vnited Secondly of the Article He ascended into Heauen Why doe not both sides agree to these Yes But one side fetches arguments against vbiquitie from these places and thereupon saith the question is about these Articles perhaps also chargeth the other to denie them Hee cites Pappus writing thus Agitur inter nos de Omnipotentia Dei c. The controuersie betwixt vs is about the Omnipotencie of God The personall vnion of the two natures in Christ. The communication of properties The glorious body of our Sauiour c. Loe againe euery place of argument or defence is made the matter of Controuersie Out of these and such like confessions on either side my namelesse Aduersarie will needes enforce with great pompe and triumph what thinke yee That such sanctified men this is his scoffing language goe not together by the eares for Moon-shine in the water Againe That all those Myrmidonian fights and bloudie encounters bee not de lanâ Caprinâ aut de vmbrâ asini Why who said they were I will set downe here my wordes that you may iudge of the conscience of this man and haue with all the substance of my answere to this obiection And what if some outragious spirits on each side trans●ported with passion in their oppositions haue vsed most bitter and vnbeseeming speeches to their Aduersaries and sometimes haue shewed each other small humanitie are you so simple as not to discerne betweene the choller of some few opinionate men and the consequence of their opinions Haue you forgotten Saint Hierome and Ruffinus deadly foe-hood which was rung ouer the world or Epiphanius and Chrysostomes or Victors and the Greeke Bishops which proceeded so farre about a trifle that hee excommunicated them which is little lesse I thinke then to condemne to the pit of Hell And yet if I should put it to your iudgement I am perswaded you would grant they held all truth necessarie to saluation For you must remember Pope Boniface had not yet coyned the new Article of the Faith that I mentioned before What shall I speake of Saint Paul and Barnabas which grew to such bitternesse and that about a very little question of conueniency that though they were sent out together by the Holy Ghost they brake off companie These be humane passions which wisedome would we should pittie when they grow to such extremities vpon so small cause rather then from their outrage to gather there is iust cause to encrease Doe we not see that euen naturall brethren doe sometimes defie one another and vse each other with lesse respect then strangers Now from hence would you conclude they bee not brethren and hearten them on and say to the one that sith his halfe brother is not so neere to him as he with whom he is thus at oddes hee must fall out worse with him You should well so deserue the hate of God for a make-hate betweene brethren These were all my wordes set downe in answere to his obiecting our owne contentions and condemning each other to proue that therefore we could not hold continuitie with the ancient Church of England from which we dissented much more I held as you may perceiue that neither amongst our selues nor from our predecessors wee disagree in any truth necessarie to saluation Hee makes me to say our dissentions are about Moone shine and de vmbrâ asini de la●â caprinâ and tr●fles and matters of no consequence To returne to you good Master Waddesworth let men auouch as confidently as they will touching their owne positions Est de Fide N●hil certius apud Catholicos and of their contraries crie out They are Heretikes renew ancient heresies race the foundation denie the Articles of the Creede Gods ●●●ipoteney c. all because themselues by discourse can as they thinke fasten such things vpon them A sober Christian must not giue heede to all that is said in this kinde These things must be examined with right iudgement and euer with much charitie and patience remembring that our selues know in part and prophesie in part In a word● this should not haue so much disquieted you Nor yet that which you adde That euery one pretends Scripture Best of all saith Saint Chrysostome For if wee should say we beleeue humane reasons thou mightest with good reason 〈◊〉 troubled but when as we receiue the 〈◊〉 and they bee simple and true it will 〈…〉 thing for 〈◊〉 to i●dge c. And to what purpose indeed serues the facultie of ●●●son perfected and polished with learning wherefore the supernaturall light of Faith wherefore the gift of God in vs Ministers con●erred by the imposition of hands but 〈◊〉 which side handles the Word of God deceitfully which sincerely But here againe Each side arrogates the Holy Ghost in his fauour What then If wee our selues haue the anointing we shall be able as we are bidden to trie the spirits whether they bee of God or no For wee will not b●leeue them because they say they haue the Spirit or cannot bee deceiued but because their Doctrine is consonant to the principles of heauenly Truth which by the writings inspired by himselfe the Holy Ghost hath grauen in our hearts Which writings are well acknowledged by you to be the Law and Rule according whereunto in iudgement of Religion we must proceede CHAP. III. Of the want of a humane externall infallible Iudge and Interpreter AS to that you say did about all trouble you the want of a certaine humane externall infallible Iudge to interpret Scripture and define Questions of Faith without error What if you found not an externall humane Iudge if you had an internall diuine one And hauing an infallible Rule by which your humane Iudge should proceede why should you trust another mans applying it rather then your own in a matter concerning your owne saluation But i● God haue left vs no such externall Iudge if Antiquitie knew 〈◊〉 if Religion neede none it was no iust motiue to leaue vs that you could finde none amongst all those Sects which 〈…〉 And how much lesse if you haue 〈…〉 amended your selfe where you are which we shall consider by and by I say then first that to make this your motiue of any moment it must be shewed that God hath appointed such a Iudge in his Church Let that appeare out of some

die neuer so wickedly shall be saued and punished with a long but not eternall fire he thinkes them to be deceiued out of a certaine humane pit● for this opinion is flatly contrarie to other Sc●rptures II. He interprets the place of Saint Paul touching the trying of euery mans worke by fire of the fire of tribulation through which as well he that builds gold and siluer that is mindes the things of God as he that builds hay and stubble that is too much mindes the things of this life must passe III. He saith that it is not incredible that some such thing is done after this life also and whether it be so or not may be enquired of IIII. But whether it be found or no that some faithfull people according as they haue more or lesse loued these perishing things are later or sooner saued yet not such as of whom it is said that they shall not possesse the Kingdome of God vnlesse repenting as they ought they obtaine forgiuenesse as for the purpose be fruitfull in almes which yet will not serue to purchase a licence to commit sinne V. That the daily and lighter sinnes without which we are neuer in this life are blotted out by the Lords Prayer And so the greater also if a man leaue them and forgiue others his enemies which is a worthy kinde of almes but the best of all is a sinners amending of his life Loe how plainly Saint Augustine auo●cheth Purgatorie Of which he doubts whether any such thing can be found or no. Expounds that Scripture that seemes most strong for it all otherwise and so as it cannot agree thereunto If it be found is sure it will not serue for greater sinnes And for lesser defects yea the greatest shewes another a surer remedy which intruth makes Purgatory superfluous In this doctrine Danaeus is so farre from controuling Saint Augustine that he applauds him and saith that declaring his owne opinion of Purgatorie he pronounceth plainely that the whole defining of this matter is vncertaine doubtfull and rash which since that Augustine wrote being now an old man certainely it cannot be doubted but that hee did altogether reiect Purgatorie yea and he shewes this fire it selfe to be vnprofitable Thus Danaeus there But the censure that was in your minde I beleeue is that vpon another passage of Saint Augustine in the same Booke where hee treates whether the soules of the dead are eased by the pietie of their friends that are liuing And thus he determines it That when the Sacrifices either of the Altar or of whatsoeuer almes are offered for all such as are deceased after Baptisme for such as are very good folke they are thankesgiuings for such as are not very euill they are propitiations for those that are very euill though they be no helpes to the dead yet they are consolations such as they be to the liuing And to such as they are profitable vnto it is either that they may haue full remission or that their very damnation may be more tollerable Vpon this Chapter thus saith Dan●us Hoc totum caput continet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Augustini and after hee addes Itaque hic foenum stipulam aedificat vir pius magnus But you yee say had rather follow Saint Augustines opinion then his censure Perhaps as one saith rather erre with Plato then hold the truth with others If that be your resolution what should we vse any more words Beleeue then if you please that the commemoration of Christs sacrifice in the Lords Supper or the oblations of the faithfull are to be made for all that decease after Baptisme in the attempting of whatsoeuer sinne they die yea suppose in finall impenitence of any deadly crime That such as be damned may thereby haue their damnation made more tollerable Beleeue that without any improprietie of speech the same forme of words may be a thanksgiuing for one and an appeasing of Gods wrath for another Beleeue also if you can beleeue what you will that Saint Tecla deliuered the soule of Falconilla out of hell and Saint Gregorie the soule of Traian and that as may seeme saying Masse for him sith he was forbidden thence forth to offer any hoste for any wicked man Bele●●e that Macarius continually praying for the dead and very desirous to know whether his prayers did them any good had answere by miracle from the scull of a dead man an Idolater that by chance was tumbled in the way O Macarius when tho● offerest prayer's for the dead we feele some ease for the time Beleeue that on Easter euen all the damned spirits in hell keep holy day and are free from their torments Saint Augustine such is his modestie will giue you leaue to beleeue 〈◊〉 as well as Purgatorie if you please as hee is not vnwilling to giue as large scope to other mens opinions as may be so they reuerse not the plaine and certaine grounds of holy Scripture In all these you may if you please follow authors also as Saint Damasce●● Paladius Prudentius Sigebert and others But giue the same libertie to others that yee take Compell no man to follow your opinion if he had rather follow Danaeus reasons For my selfe I would sooner with Saint Augustine himselfe whose words touching Saint Cyprian Danaeus here borrowed confesse this to be 〈…〉 coopertum 〈…〉 then be bound to iustif●e his conceit touching the commemoration of the dead in the Lords Supper And as hee saith of Saint Cyprian so would I adde Ego h●ius libri authoritate non teneor 〈…〉 Augustini non vt Canonicas habeo sed eas ex Canonic●s considero quod in ijs 〈◊〉 scriptur 〈…〉 cum 〈…〉 quod non congruit cum pace eius resp●● Which words I doe the rather set downe that they may be Luthers iustification also against F. Parsons who thinkes he hath laid sore to his charge when hee cites very solemnely his Epistle ad Equitem Germ. Anno Domini 1521. where he saith he was tyed by the authority of no Father though neuer so holy if hee were not approued by the iudgement of holy Scripture Surely this is not to denie and contemne as he cals it or as you to controll the Fathers to account them subiect to humane infirmities which themselues acknowledge But the contrary is to boast against the truth to seeke to fore iudge it with their mistakings which needes not so much as require their testimonies I will forbeare to multiply words about that whether the testimonies of Antiquitie which fauour the Protestants be many or few whether they doe indeede so or onely seeme prima facie whether they be wrested or to the purpose whether all this may not by iust or reason be affirmed of the passages cited by 〈◊〉 Romanists out of Antiquitie setting aside matters of ceremony and gouernment which your selfe confesse by and by may be diuers without empeaching vnitie in Faith and opinions euer to be subiected to the triall of

lesser Orders and Subdeaconship according to the Master of the Sentences were instituted by the Church 3. The Deacons instituted by the Apostles Act. 6. were not Deacons of the Altar but of the Tables Widdowes 4. In Deaconship there seemes to be no certain forme for according to the old Pontificals the laying of hands vpon the Deacon hath no certaine forme of words but that prayer Emitte q●aesumus in eos S. Sauctum which according to the new Pontificals is to be said after the imposition of hands For the giuing of the Booke of the Gospels hath indeede a forme of words but that impresseth not the Character for before any Gospell was written the Apostles ordained Deacons by imposition of hands 5. In the Subdeaconship also there is no Pontificall which hath not the matter without forme viz. the deliuery of the emptie Chalice c. These things with more which hee there sets downe he would haue to serue to the instruction of the learned touching the vncertaintie of this whole matter to ●each men to be wise to sobrietie that is euery man to be content with the accustomed Pontificall of the Church wherein he is ordained And if ought be omitted of those things which be added out of the new Pontificals as for example that the Booke of the Epistles was not giuen with those words Take authoritie to reade the Epistles as well for the quicke as the dead there is no neede of supplying this omission by a new ordination for such new additions make no new law Learne then of your owne Caietane that the new additions of deliuery of the Chalice with wine and Paten with Hosts and authoritie to offer sacrifice for the quick and dead make no new Law Learn to be content with the Pontificall of the Church wherein you were ordained Wherein first is verbatim all that which your Pontificals had well taken out of the holy words of our Sauiour Accipe Spiritum Sanctum quorum remisseris peccata remittuntur eis quorum retinueris retenta sunt Which me thinkes you should rather account to containe the essentiall forme of Priesthood then the former both because they are Christs owne words and ioyned with that ceremonie of laying on hands which anciently denominated this whole action and do expresse the worthiest and principallest part of your Commission which the Apostle cals the Ministry of reconciliation 2 Cor. 5. 18. 19. Then because this office is not onely deputed to consecrate the Lords body but also to preach baptize which in your Pontificall is wholly omitted in a larger and more conuenient forme is added out of Saint Paul 1 Cor. 4. 1. and be thou a faithfull dispenser of the word of God and of his holy Sacraments In the name of the Father c. As to that you adde that we offer no sacrifice for the quicke and dead and therefore well may be called Ministers as all lay men are but are no Priests I haue met with sundry that pull this roape as strongly the other way and affirme that because by the very forme of your ordination you are appointed Sacrificers for the quicke and dead well may ye be Masse-Priests as ye are called but Ministers of the New Testament after S. Pauls phrase ye are none For that office stands principally in preaching the word whereof in your ordination there is no word said And as little there is in Scrip●ure of your sacrifice which makes Christ not to be a Priest after the order of Melchisedech c. with much more to this purpose Where my defence for your Ministrie hath beene this that the forme Receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted c. doth sufficiently comprehend the authoritie of preaching the Gospell Vse you the same equitie toward vs and tell those hot spirits among you that stand so much vpon formalities of words that to be a dispenser of the word of God and his holy Sacraments is all the dutie of Priesthood And to you I adde further that if you consider well the words of the Master of the Sentences which I vouched before how that which is consecrated of the Priest is called a Sacrifice and oblation because it is a memoriall and representation of the true sacrifice and holy offering made on the altar of the Crosse and ioyne there to that of the Apostle that by that one offering Christ hath perfected for euer them that are sanctified and as he saith in another place through that bloud of his Crosse reconciled vnto God all things whether in earth or in heauen you shall perceiue that we do offer sacrifice for the quick and dead remembring representing mystically offering that sole Sacrifice for the quicke and dead by the which all their fins are meritoriously expiated and desiring that by the same wee and all the Church may obtaine remission of sinnes and all other benefits of Christs passion To the Epilogue therefore of this your last motiue I say in short Sith we haue no neede of Subdeaconship more then the Churches in the Apostles times in truth those whom wee call Clerkes and Sextens performe what is necessarie in this behalfe Sith we haue Canonicall Bishops and lawfull succession Sith we neither want due intention to depute men to Ecclesiasticall functions nor matter or forme in giuing Priesthood deriuing from no man or woman the authoritie of ordination but from Christ the head of he Church yee haue alleadged no sufficient cause why we should not haue true Pastors and consequently a true Church in England CHAP. XII Of the Conclusion Master Waddesworths agonies and protestation c. YEt by these you say and many other arguments you were resolued in your vnderstanding to the contrary It may well be that your vnderstanding out of it owne heedlesse haste as that of our first Parents while it was at the perfectest was induced into errour by resoluing too soone out of seeming arguments and granting too forward assent For surely these which you haue mentioned could not conuince it if it would haue taken the paines to examine them throughly or had the patience to giue vnpartiall hearing to the motiues on the other side Bu● as if you triumphed in your owne conquest and captiuitie you adde that which passeth yet all that hitherto you haue set downe viz. That the Church of Rome was and is the onely true Church because it alone is Ancient Catholike and Apostolike hauing succession vnitie and visibilitie in all ages and places Is it onely ancient To omit Hierusalem are not that of Antioch where the Disciples were first called Christians and Alexandria Ephesus Corinth and the rest mentioned in the Scriptures ancient also and of Antioch ancienter then Rome Is it Catholike and Apostolike onely Doe not these and manie more hold the Catholike faith receiued from the Apostles as well as the Church of Rome For that it should be the Vniuersall Church is all one as yee would say the part is the