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A51572 The Messias of the Christians and the Jewes held forth in a discourse between a Christian, and a Iew obstinately adhering to his strange opinions, & the forced interpretations of scripture, wherein Christ the true savior of the whole world is described from the prophets and likewise that false and counterfeited Messias of the Jewes, who in vaine is expected by that nation to this very day, is discovered / written first in Hebrew, but now rendered into English by Paul Isaiah, a Jew born, but now a converted and baptized Christian. Münster, Sebastian, 1489-1552.; Eliazar Bar-Isajah. 1655 (1655) Wing M3039A; ESTC R42183 58,523 257

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and I will follow you for I have many things in my heart to speak to you and now for a long time I have not entred the house of any Iew What doth that white circle signifie which I see written on the wals round about the chamber having this inscription tarry without thou Lilith Iew We by this circle drive away the Devill lest he enter and hurt the infant newly borne for our Rabbies say that Lilith is a certaine Ghost having the shape of an abortive born of an impure birth saving that he hath wings Christian Thou tellest me strange things but goe on and tell me what more your Masters write concerning this thing Iew I will Know therefore that our wise men judge thus that Adam the first parent begat devils spirits and ghosts and you shall be constrained to bee of their opinion forasmuch as we finde not those creatures in the number of the other workes of creation but many of these have a bodie and a soule they are multiplied and die as other men and againe there are many spirits which are created without a body and of these it is said which the Lord created that hee might make which were not yet made but created such were those Devils whose soules hee had created but did not make their bodies because the Sabbath was at hand and the Lord was forc'd to rest from all his works which hee had created that hee might make but those which are created with a body and a soule as men proceeded from him then came Lilith to Adam hee not knowing for he had not a body by which hee might bee knowne and did preserve his seed from him But Adam was created from the beginning and devils and spirits and ghosts proceeded from him which we draw from this Adam was an hundred and thirty yeares old and begat in his likenesse and image whereby is signified that he begat not in his likeness and image untill the hundred and thirteth yeare Gen. 5.5 Christian Declare to mee better the mentioned text of Scripture which the Lord created that he might make because I understand it not according to your words Iew The Scripture saith thus which the Lord created that he might make and not thus which the Lord created and made to signifie that God created al things by a certain word and was not tired nor weary for he did not make but created all things by a certaine vvord out of nothing speaking to them as to Artificers that they should bring forth things out of themselves as vvhen he said let the earth bring forth let the vvaters bring forth therefore the Scripture saith vvhich the LORD created that hee might make that is commit to others that they might make them but hee did determine and told how all things should bee made After this sort is the creation of Devils who were created in the even of the sabbath as our wise men of good memory have recorded The holy day shone upon them and their making was not altogether finished but were sent into the aire imperfect partly communicating with man and partly with Angels They eate and drinke they increase in off-spring as men they flie through the aire they ascend and steale away things within a garment and for the most part their speeches are lies neither dare they appeare in the sight of God seeing it is written the wicked shall not dwell with thee and when it is said in Genesis Gen. 36. 24. that Anas found Iemim in the desert hee would signifie Devils wherefore Iemim is writ without Iod to signifie that the Devils were left imperfect after the six daies of creation for the holy day of the Sabbath began to enter and hence it is that they shun the Sabbath as it is written in Exodus Exod. 12. 42. it is a night of observations to you to wit that you should beware of those injurious spirits on the Sabbath no Devill or other evill assault need be feared for they all flie to the dark mountains neither doe they appeare all the Sabbath day because that is the holy day and they are unclean but when the Sabbath is ended they returne to fall upon men and hurt them and therefore we say let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us Psal. 90. 17. which Psalme is against Devils and hath that commendation that by it we may put to flight those noxious spirits who are called the snares of the sons of men as it is written Psal. 91. 10. evill shall not be devised against thee neither shall the rod approach thy Tabernacle and because those Devils were made of Adam the first parent in those hundred and thirty yeares wherein hee was sequestred from his wife being made I say of his seed therefore they are called the snares and plagues of men and the mentioned Psalme and the 91 Psalme doth conteine a hundred and thirty sayings with this verse with length of daies thou shalt satisfie him c. and Adam left this calamity to his posterity as it were by right of inheritance that when at night they had felt the flux of nature from thence Devils hurtfull and malitious to men are born Therefore the Law saith thou shalt beware of every evill thing to wit lest man in the day time take in any spirits which in the night may cast him into uncleannesse by Belial's meanes who is called an evill eye and he appeareth sometimes in the shape of a woman is also called Lilith that is a night-ghost Moreover wee must observe that those faunes who are so engendred of the seed of man when the man dies who is their father they all meet together to touch and defile him and therefore our wise men have commanded us to make circles about the man and remember certain words whereby they are put to flight and dare not enter the circle to touch the funerall Moreover they have taught us to make seven circles to drive away seven troops of hurtfull angels which there met together which they gather from hence because it is written Iob 5.19 in six troubles he shall deliver thee and in the seventh evill shall not touch thee Evill that is Belial for they flie away from those circles wherefore those circles must bee made by the grave that presently after the writing of them they may put in the carkasse into the grave and no delay at all be made in letting downe the coffin lest any evill touch it Christian This is great folly in you Iewes yea madnesse of heart when you affirme that God left any creature unperfect or uncomplete seeing it is written in the worke of creation The Heaven and the Earth were finished and all the host of them Gen. 2.2 and in another place it is said The worke of the Creator is perfect Deut. 32. 4 if that bee true how dare you say God made any work imperfect do you think the hand of the Lord is shortned that he
number 1335 be accomplisht Iew Some say that number is extended to the year of the world 6118 which is the 2367 year of Christ For first they counted 1290 daies to that time when they laid down the abomination of desolation after the destruction of the temple according to the words of Daniel and afterwards they began to number 1335 daies But they who went before us did not receive this supputation but every man laboured to finde out some account which might agree with their daies And after this manner thou shalt finde with our Rabbies of good memory many divers bounds which are al past for they were carefull to finde out some neere bound lest the common people should despaire because redemption was suspended Christian And so your Rabbies doe alway seduce you saying behold at this time the Messias shall come and when that that is past again they say at that time he shall come How will yee believe these lying words Consider you have no hope and salvation is deferred from you and God is departed from you and you have no consolation not a prophet nor vision therefore be converted acknowledge your Saviour and our Saviour our Lord Christ Iew Neither have wee had from the beginning of the second Temple a Prophet or vision but in those daies when the Messias shall begin to grow Then prophecies and visions shall be multiplied But at this time all vision and prophecie is sealed for the end of the vision of the Prophets hath respect wholly to the growing of the Messias Kingdome When hee shall come we shall have great consolations so that al the daies of our captivity shall bee counted as a little moment as it is written I have left thee a little moment and in great mercies I wil gather thee Christian Vision and prophecy is shut up from your eies but not from our eies for we are all taught of God and the mysteries of the Kingdome of God are revealed to us and if you also will believe in our Lord Christ you may enter into the Kingdome of God Iew Wee cannot beleeve in your Christ because hee was a Magician and all his miracles were wrought by the Magick Art and therefore he was judged to death as the Lord God taught us and because hee brake the Sabbath and said hee was a God therefore the Iewes slew him Christian Hold your peace knave and doe not so reproach our Saviour but if you will at another time I will come to you that wee may speake more of this matter Who knows peradventure thou wilt acknowledge the truth and receive our Gospell Iew I am content that according to your pleasure you come to me but speak nothing to me of your bad tidings Christian Take heed to your selfe that you say not bad tidings but good tidings for it is a manifestation of the goodness of God which came to us by Christ the Redeemer of the world But why doe you so refuse to heare the Gospell and why doe you shun the light and will set in darknesse Is it not written concerning the light of the Gospell the people which did walke in darkenesse saw a great light and to them which dwell in the shadow of death light hath shined Iew This is the reason why I will not heare because Iesus your Messias was an evill man and his speeches were fained and the glorious God saw that hee would seduce the world and would set himselfe forth for God and for that God hath said that men should die but Iesus ought to bee hanged upon the Crosse that so all that should come into the world might see that hee was not God Moreover none of the Prophets hath prophecied frō that time wherin Christ being crucified was hang'd up none of Israel neither any of the Nations because a lying spirit did so much prevail in the world that there was no place for the spirit of prophecie But also we suffer al these tribulations and this very long captivity because that wicked man was borne of us and in our land who made himselfe God and seduced the whole world Christian All those evils which you Iewes suffer came not upon you because of our Christ because he said that he was God and the son of God but rather for this because your fathers slew him and crucified him a holy man and just the Saviour of the world who did no evill neither was deceit found in his mouth Behold this holy man your fathers slew and numbered him with the wicked and ye all allow this fact to this very day and therefore ye shall never find grace in the eies of God unlesse ye return from that evill way and acknowledge our Lord Iesus Christ whom ye in contempt do call Ieschim Vnless you beleeve in him you shall all perish and shall goe downe to hell Behold I have foretold it you shall not finde other salvation in heaven and in earth and for this cause seeke the Lord while he may be found call upon him while he is neere Forsake your unbelieving heart and returne to the Lord and he will have mercy on you and to our God for hee will abundantly pardon you Be not like your fathers who hardned their faces more than a rocke and would not returne to the Lord but dealt wickedly against the Lord the God of their fathers who delivered them to be spoiled as you see it at this day I beseech you harden not your necks as you have done hitherto but give your hands to the Lord and acknowledge that Christ is sent for the salvation of all men who shall beleeve in him the Lord our God is gratious and mercifull who will not turne away his face from you if yee returne to him Iew You shal never perswade me to receive your faith and believe in your Christ for that which you beleeve no reason can comprehend neither any man understand For how shal I beleeve that the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that are in them shut himselfe up in the wombe of a Iewish Virgin grew nine moneths and was borne a child and afterward increased in stature and was delivered into the hands of his enemies who condemned him with the judgement of death slew him on the Crosse and yee afterward say and beleeve that he lived again and returned to his former state neither the mind of a Iew neither can any man comprehend this therefore you spend your words in vaine seeing that these things have no likelihood of truth Christian Knowest thou not that nothing is unpossible to God verily all those things which you have now mentioned are in the Prophets but wrapt in the covering of words for thus saith the Prophet Isaias Behold a virgin shall conceive and beare a son and shall call his name Immanuel And in another place hee saith Hee was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquities the chastisement of our peace was
upon him and with his stripes we are healed c. Doe you see how wonderfull things the Prophet hath spoke concerning the Messias and all these things are fulfilled in our Christ Againe heare what the same Prophet saith In that day the branch of the Lord shall bee beautifull and glorious and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel Where Ionathan hath interpreted in Chaldee after this manner In that time the Messias of the Lord shall be for joy and honour Behold the Messias is called the branch of the Lord that is the sonne of God as also in Ieremiah he is called the branch of David for he saith thus In those daies and at that time will I cause the branch of righteousnesse to grow up unto David Where Ionathan the Chaldee interpreter saith thus In those daies and at that time will I raise up to David a Messias of righteousnesse You see now that the Creator could suffer afflictions not in the divine nature but in the humanity which he assumed in the unity of the person Iew These are wonderful things and what I pray you hath that your Iesus done or what need was there that hee should bee born of a woman why did he sustaine all those passions and afflictions which our fathers brought upon him Christian Was it not said already that he was wounded for our transgressions All we like sheep have gone astray wee have turned every one to his own way and the Lord hath made the iniquities of us all to meet in him Iew Some of our teachers have said the Messias hath no other passions but a certaine internall griefe and trouble whereby he is internally afflicted that his comming is so long deferred and in the meane while sees his people in captivity and he cannot helpe them and deliver them but he shall never be delivered into the hand of his enemies as ye affirme Christian Your Rabbies have been estranged from the womb they have gone astray as soon as they were borne speaking lies stopping their eares like the deaf adder that they might not heare the truth they have ceased to heare rightly and wisely and therefore God hath cast them off and hath blinded their eies as it is written Goe and tell this people heare ye indeed but understand not and see yee indeed but perceive not Make the heart of this people fat and make their eares heavy and shut their eies lest they see with their eies and heare with their eares and understand with their heart and convert and bee healed Loe it hath come to pass to you Iews according to this prophecy for your fathers saw the wonderfull workes which our Christ did and would not understand They heard his doctrine and could not reprove him and yet they stopt their eares likewise yee to this very day do confirme and approve their works and therefore in vain do ye expect another Messias Iew If your Christ is God and the true Messias why did he conceale himselfe in the flesh and why did hee not come openly by renewing his law and giving it publikely for so the men of his age had not erred neither should they stumble who come into this world after him he should have done his works in publick that all might beleeve on him especially that great multitude which he destroied and deprived of redemption by his concealing himselfe for because of that concealing they were separated from him and beleeved not in him Thou knowest not what thou saiest hath he not shown in words and deeds such miracles as no other did that hee was the Messias and redeemer of the world and yet your fathers said that by Beelzebub and by the power of devils that is by magick art he did all those things lying against their own lives Loe God hath sent his own son his onely son into the most pure womb of a virgin as Isaias did foretell and hee was made man within her and born of her without her pangs and griefe and that by a miracle farre otherwise than other women bring forth and that was not impossible forasmuch as all things which doe far exceed the power of man are possible to GOD and by his power a body might be created within a body and be quickned by the spirit Also he could and he would send his glorious word within a pure virgin that hee might bee incarnated within her and be born of her without any griefe or paine and as he entred into her so he went out of her and she remained a virgin before and after the birth But that child who also is the glorious God did walke upon the earth thirty three yeares that he might save man for he was sent to the sons of Israel to redeem them but because they were a people of a stiffe neck and would not receive him neither observe all the signes such as no man ever did the Gentiles come and received him with love and the blessed God chose them for his peculiar people in stead of Israel and they were made the sons of Abraham for their faith because Abraham is the father of the faithfull and beleevers in God are the sons of Abraham He therefore was that Messias of whom the Prophets did prophecy and he walked thirty yeares before hee became known to these who were in the world But presently after that time he manifested himself to the Israelites that hee was the Christ of the LORD and wrought signes and miracles such as none of the Prophets ever did shewing to the whole world that he came to redeem man for sin as it is written He was wounded for our transgressions and hee made a new covenant with us according to that which is said in Ieremy Behold the daies come saith the Lord and I will make with Israel and with Iudah a new covenant not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers for I will put my Law in their inward parts c. therefore it is manifest from these sayings that the Lord would make with the Israelites a new covenant and not according to that covenant which he made with Abraham when he made a covenant with him that every male child should be circumcised but this covenant was another covenant namely baptisme in which by the power of Christs sufferings all mans sin is remitted and that signe or Sacrament is common to male and female Moreover he gave them a new law after that the Law of Moses was fulfilled for the Law was given to Moses onely for a time as you have it written in the Thalmud in the Treatise of Idolatry where it is said that the law was given but for 2000 yeares for the Fathers of good memory say thus That the world must endure 6000 yeares that it should bee 2000 yeares void and without form that after two thousand yeares the Mosaicall Law should bee given that it should stand 2000