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A47928 Toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues I. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... II. betwixt a Presbyterian, and an Independent ... L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1670 (1670) Wing L1316; ESTC R1454 134,971 366

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Law of Animal Beings as it is of Rationals the Lowest This Law Sensitive is no other than the Manifestation of God in the Creature for what Sense does Nature does and what Nature does God does N. C. But what is That Power all this while which you call NATURE C. It is the Ordinary Working of God in all his Creatures by Virtue of which Divine Impression and Influence Every thing is moved to seek the Utmost Perfection whereof it is Capable As for the Purpose The Perfection of MAN is the Congruity of his Actions with his Reason which is Nothing else but That which we call VIRTUE The Perfection of BEASTS lies a degree lower For they are only mov'd by a Sensual Impulse towards what is Convenient for them and when they have it They Rest. N. C. When People are gravell'd they fly to their Impulses and Occu●…t Qualities Where lies the Difference I beseech you between Their Impulse and Our Choice C. Their Impulse carries them on through a Sensitive Search not any D●…liberative Discourse And there is no E●…ection neither at last But only the Simple Prosecution of a Determinate Appetite without imagining any Proportion betwixt the Means and the End N. C. But still we find that there is a Proportion and the Motion appears to us according to the Method of Reason And a very Orderly Proceeding from a Question to a Resolution C. Is it Reason think ye that makes a Dog follow his Nose and Hunt for Meat when he is Hungry Or will you call it Choice if he leaves a Turfe for a Bone Now if you ask how This comes about He is guided by Instinct toward the End and Sense carries him thorough the Means N. C. But why should the same Process of Means and the same Application of Causes be ascribed only to Instinct in Brutes and to Reason in Man C. You are to take notice that all Natur●…l Operations are Regular and Ordinate by what Means soever performed But it does not follow because the Method is according to Reason that therefore the Instrument must be Reasonable But to mind what we are upon The Law of Self-Preservation is a Law common to Beasts with Men but not of Equal Force and Obligation for Their Sovereign Interest is Life Ours is Virtue And therefore your late Argument for Defensive Arms under Pretense of that Extremity was but a Brutish Plea For if the Consideration of Virtue be not above That of Life Where lies the Advantage of Our Reason N. C. But when the Death is certain and the Virtue doubtful Who shall decide the Point C. In a Case abstracted from the Ties and Duties of Religion and Government every Man's Reason sits as Iudge upon his own Life As for Instance You are in the Hands of Thieves and only This Choice offer'd you either to take a False Oath or to lose your Life Your Conscience tells you that you must rather Perish then Forswear your self But if you can preserve your self without Violence to a Superiour Duty you are your own Murderer if you do not Thus far I think we are safe and I suppose agreed that every Individual is to Govern himself by his Natural Conscience But when the several Particulars come to be bundled up in One Community the Case is otherwise N. C. I am sorry to hear you say That Why should not every Man be Govern'd by his own Conscience as well in Consort as in Solitude as well in Company as by Himself Or will you have it that our Duty to God ceases in the Act of becoming Subjects to a Civil Power C. As to your Conscience you are as free now as you were before But your Body is no longer your Own after you are once enrolled a Member of a Society And here 's the Difference You were your own Servant before and now you are the King 's For what is Government but the Wisedom Resolve and Force of every Particular gather'd into One Under standing Will and Body And This comes up to what I have already Deliverd that Whatsoever God has left INDIFFERENT is the Subject of HUMANE POWER N. C. But who shall be Iudge of what 's Indifferent C. Let That be Examined the very next Thing we do You are already satisfied that an Auth●…rized Iudge is absolutely Necessary in Order to the Pe●…ce of Church and State and to the Ending of all Publique Differences But we are not yet resolv'd about Our Iudges Or if we were yet in Regard they are but Men and so may Erre Infallibility being departed with Christ and his Apostles in lieu of which Living and Infallible Guides God has in Providence given us a Plain and Infallible Rule We are now to make Enquiry how far a Private Judge may be allow'd to Oppose or Differ from a Publique in Case of a Reluctant Conscience and in some sort to Iudge his Iudge N. C. You say very well For place the Ultimate Decision where you will It is as you said before an Infallible Determination as to the Strife but Not so as to the Truth and comes at last to This that every Man in some Degree re-judges his Iudge If I be fully convinc't either that the Command is Sinful in it self or the Opinion Wicked I am neither to Obey the One nor to Embrace the Other as being tied up by a General Obligation of rather Obeying and Believing God then Man Nay more If in Obedience to the Magistrate I commit a Sin against God and do it ignorantly too That very Act in Ignorance is Crimin●…l If I had the Means of being better inform'd For No Humane Respect c●…n justifie an Offence against God Now if I am bound to do Nothing that is Ill I am likewise bound before I do any thing to satisfie my self whether it be Ill or No For otherwise I may follow a False Religion for a True and be Damned in the End for not minding what I did This do I take for Proof sufficient that No Man is so Implicitely Obliged to rely upon other Mens Eyes as totally to Abandon the Direction of his own Or so unconditionally to swear Obedience to other Mens Laws and Perswasions as to hold no Intelligence at all with that Sacred Law and Faithful Counsell●…r which he carries in his own B●…som C. I am so far from advising you to reneunce your Reason that on the contrary I would have you absolutely guided and concluded by it and only to Obey for Quiet sake so far as you can possibly Obey in Conscience N. C. What if a Single Person hit that Truth which a General Council misses Which will you have him follow Truth or Authority C. I would have him follow Truth with his Soul and Authority with his Body But it is not for so remote a Possibility as This is to bring the Fansies and Imaginations of a Private Spirit into a Competition with Resolutions of Law And yet for the Possibility sake We 'l take the very
Houses and the Captivaters of silly Women And on the other side as many were undone with Taxes and Plunder How went Trading on when all Business was neglected but Gallopping up and down to Lectures to hear News and Sedition When Prentices robb'd their Masters and took Sanctuary in the Service When Publique Faith was a Tradesmans best Security and the whole Nation held Life and Estate at the good Pleasure of a Close Committee N. C. Let Liberty of Conscience be once FITLY given and the Root of all Mens Hopes and Pretensions that desire Publique Mischief is pull'd up C. FITLY will be well indeed But with your Favour what is the meaning of FITLY How shall we agree upon the Dos Unless you intend that the Magistrate is to continue Giving till the Subject shall leave Asking And That must be For If ever he thinks of holding his hand sooner he had better have done nothing N. C. But what Colour will there be for any further Exception C. The very same they have now New Scruples will bolt New Demands And Beside I should be glad if you would furnish me with any one Instance where the Non-Conformists were ever the better for Indulgence SECT XVII This Kingdom has been still the Worse for Indulging the Non-Conformists and the Party never the Better Which evinces that UNIFORMITY is the True Interest of This Government and Not Toleration C. UPon Queen Elizabeth's coming to the Crown Those Non-Conformists that fled in Queen Mary's Days and Separating from the English Congregation at Francfort went off to Geneva came back again for England and with their Libels Clamours Private Consultations and Meetings gave Trouble enough to the Government for the Ten first Years of her Majesties Reign who was at that time so beset with the Roman Catholiques on the One Hand and the Puritans on the Other that she thought it well upon that Pinch to save her self without Exercising Rigor and Severity upon either Party This Impunity gave them the Confidence a while after to declare themselves for the Geneva Discipline and in the Fourteenth of Her Reign by an Audacious Pamphlet under the Title of An Admonition to press the Parliament to a Reformation The Principal Abetters of This Libel were Discover'd and Clapt up And soon after out comes a Second Admonition telling the Parliament in Plain English that if Authority would not they must set it up Themselves And it was not long ere they were as good as their Words by Erecting several Formal Presbyteries up and down the Kingdom As appeared upon Undeniable Proof and Confession of Parties to the Combination They had their Synods their Classical and Provincial Conferences Pronounc'd their Decrees Concurring in the main against Bishops Ceremonies and Common Prayer They had their Agents throughout the Kingdom upon a strict Survey of the Value of every Benefice the Number of Parishioners Their Quality manner of Life and Conversation Their Book of Discipline was long upon the Anvile but at length about 1586. it was Finished Communicated and Subscribed with a Promise to observe it Themselves and to use all Lawful and CONVENIENT Means to further and advance it In Conclusion the whole Matter came to be Detected Cartwright Snape and several of the Ringleaders were Examin'd and Committed Whereupon Coppinger Arthington Hacket Wigginton c. Entred into a Conspiracy for their Deliverance and to have the Blood of every Man that should dare to give his Vote against them in the Star-Chamber nay to Depose the Queen her self in Case of her Refusal to promote the Reformation And all this not without the Privity and Tacit Approbation of the most considerable Ministers of the Party This was the blessed Fruit of Lenity and Forbearance under Queen Elizabeth The Law Iustled out by a Faction A Plot upon the Life of the Queen and Counsel carried on under Colour of Religion and Reformation N. C. Still I perceive you pick out the foulest Cases and Instances you can lay hold on to Match with Ours C. Is it not rather your Misfortune to write after the foulest Copies But to the Business What would you say if his Majesty now in being had Queen Elizabeth's Game to Play Apprehensions of his Life from Iesuits Both Protestant and Papist The whole Generation of the Non-Conformists United against his Person and Government as well in Iudgment as in Faction which are here divided into a Thousand Disagreements You would beyond all peradventure give the Government for lost without an immediate Recourse to an Act of Indulgence and Accommodation to preserve it But the Policy of Those Times made Choice rather of another Course Some were Imprison'd Others put to Death according to the Demerit of the Offence N. C. Are you for Punishing Inconformity with Death then C. No by no means Hacket you know was not put to Death for Inconformity but for Treason And pray let me give You a Brief of his Story as Cambden delivers it He was born at Oundle in Northamptonshire a Poor Insolent Ill-natured and Illiterate Fellow He married a Widow spent her Fortune in Riot and when he had Nothing else to Trust to betook himself to the Imposture of Religion and an Affectation of the Geneva Discipline So far Ingratiating himself with several of the Prime Zealots of That Profession that they did him the Honour to make Him of their Council in their Grand Design to the Execution whereof He also pretended an Extraordinary Call and Commission from Above He was in Conclusion Apprehended Charged with Treason found Guilty Condemn'd and Executed Now to shew you the Devil himself in the shape of an Angel of Light This Hacket as He was upon the Hurdle in the way to his Execution never left Calling upon Almighty God with Hideous Outcries And Now behold says he the Heavens are Open and the Son of the most High coming down to Deliver me When he was come to the Place of Execution He prosecuted his Blaspemies with more Horrid and Furious Exclamations Heavenly and Almighty God Thou that art the Alpha and Omega Lord of Lords and King of Kings Thou Eternal God That knowest ME to be the True JEHOVAH that thou hast sent Shew some Miracle from Heaven for the Conversion of These Infidels and save me from my Enemies Or if thou dost not I 'le set the Heavens on Fire and with these very Hands cast Thee out of Thy Throne I should have scrupled the bare Recital of these Blasphemies were it not for the Desire I have to Possess you with a Due Consideration of those Execrable Abuses that are frequently Imposed upon the World under the Visor of Religion The Condition of the Kingdom was doubtless very sad that had such Turbulent Spirits to deal withal and yet we find that by One Severe Law of the 35th of the Queen's Reign Her Majesty gave her Self and her People Quiet as to That Particular for the whole Remainder of her Life The Penalties as I
Supposition likewise into Consideration and Word the whole Matter as plainly as we can The Church says Ye may Do And the Law says You must Do That which your Conscience says You ought not to Do. How will you reconcile your Duty and your Conscience in This Case N. C. Uery well For I think it my Duty to Obey my Conscience upon This Principle That Conscience is God's Substitute over Individuals C. Keep to That and Answer me once again Is not the Civil Magistrate God's Substitute too If He be How comes your Conscience to take place of his Authority They are Both Commission'd alike and consequently Both to be Obey'd alike Which is Impossible where their Commands are Inconsistent N. C. The Magistrate is a Publique Minister and his Commission does not reach to Particular Consciences C. And on the Other side You are a Private Person and there is as little Reason for your Opinion to Operate upon a Publique Law So that if I mistake you not we are upon accord thus far That every Particular is to look to One and the King to the Whole Now if you would deal as Candidly with me about the Ecclesiastical Power as you have done in the Civil we might make short work of This Question I hope you will not deny that the Church is as well Authorized to TEACH and INSTRUCT in all the External Acts of Worship as the Magistrate is to COMPEL to Those External Acts. N. C. There is no Doubt The Church as the Church has a Ministerial Power Ex Officio to Define Controversies according to the Word of God And that A Syn●…d Lawfully Conven'd is a Limited Ministerial and Bounded Visible Iudge and to be believed in so far as they fellow Christ the Peremptory and Supreme Iudge speaking in his own Word C. This will not do our Business yet for to say that a Synod is to be believed in SO FAR as it follows Christ seems to make Those the Iudges of That Act that are to be Concluded by it and leaves the Credit of the Authority dependent upon the Conscience Fancy or Humour of the Believer For 't is but any Man's saying that the Synod does not follow Christ and that he trusts in it so far as it does follow Him And this is enough to keep the Controversie afoot without any hope of Decision N. C. We are indeed to believe Truths determined by Synods to be Infallible and never again liable to Retraction or Discussion Not because so says the Synod but because so says the Lord. C. Still you are short for 't is not in Our Power to dis●…elieve what we acknowledge to be a Truth But That which is Truth at the Fountain may be Corrupted in the Passage Or at least appear so to Me and What then N. C. It must be look't upon as an Errour of the Conscience which is no Discharge at all of your Obedience From which Errour you are to be reclaimed either by Instruction or Censure For the People are obliged to Obey Those that are OVER THEM IN THE LORD who Watch for their Souls as those who must give an Accompt And not oblig'd to stand to and obey the Ministerial and Official Iudgment of THE PEOPLE He that Heareth YOU MINISTERS of the GOSPEL not the PEOPLE Heareth ME And He that Despiseth YOU Despiseth ME. C. Why should not We Two shake Hands now and Join in the Act for Uniformity You cannot say that it wants any thing of the full Complement of a Binding Law Either in regard of the Civil or of the Ecclesiastical Authority Here is first the Iudgment of the Church duely conven'd touching the Meetness and Conveniency of the Rites and Forms therein Conteined You have next the Royal Sanction Approving and Authorizing Those Rites and Forms and Requiring your Exact Obedience to them Now so it is that you can neither Decline the Authority of your Iudges nor the Acknowledgment of your Duties What is it then that hinders your Obedience N. C. That which to Me is more then all the World It goes against my Conscience C. Only That Point then and we have done with This Subject We have already concluded that God is the Iudge of the World That the Church is the Iudge of what properly concerns Religion That the Civil Magistrate is Iudge of what belongs to Publique Order and Peace and That every Man's Conscience is the Iudge of what concerns his own Soul The Remaining Difficulty is This How I am to behave my self in a Case where the Law bids me do One Thing and my Conscience Another To take a True Estimate of This Matter We are first to Ballance the Two Interests that meet in Competition The One for the Law and the Other against it There is in Favour and for the EXECUTION of the Law meaning That of Uniformity 1. The Personal Conscience and 2. The Political Conscience of the King There is moreover for the EQUITY of it the Solemn and Deliberate Iudgment of the Church which is effectually the Publique Conscience and lastly for the OBSERVANCE of it There is the Duty of the Subject which if it be withdrawn does not only Invalidate This Particular Act but it loosens the Sinews of Sovereign Authority and which is more it destroys even a Divine Ordinance For take away Obedience and Government lapses into Confusion Now for the Counterpoise AGAINST This Law and Thus Supported appears your Naked Conscience Nay That 's the Fairest on 't It may be worse and in Truth any thing that 's Ill under That Name N. C. But what 's the World to Me in the Scale against my Soul C. You have great Reason sure and 't is no more then every Man may challenge That is to Stand or Fall to his own Conscience Is that your Principle N. C. Yes out of Doubt 't is Mine and Yours and any Man's that's Honest. C. Well Hold ye a little Your Conscience will not down with This Law and This Law will as little down with your Conscience Weigh now the Good against the Bad What if it stands What if it yields Make the Case worse then it is as Bad as Bad may be in your own Favour You cannot comply with the Law And the Law will not stoop to You. What follows upon it N. C. The Ruine of many Godly People that desire to Worship God according to his Word C. That Plea wrought little upon You from Us but let that pass What sort of Ruine do you mean Ruine of Liberty or Estate For this Law draws no Blood State your Misfortunes I beseech ye N. C. No Man must Hold a Benefice or Teach a School but upon Terms of such Subscription or Acknowledgment as many an honest Man would rather Die then Consent to So that We are Distrest not only for Our Selves as being deprived of the Comfort of all Spiritual and Heavenly Freedoms But Our poor Infants are exposed to be Undone wanting the Means