by those words that the body of man and all that which is in the fleshe and the vices therein is giuen for meate to the Serpent whom they do call Azazell lord of the fleshe and the bloud and Prince of that world saying that he is also called in Leuiticus the Prince of the deserts Sith then that our body is created and made of the slime and dust of the earth and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the serpent they conclude thereby that our bodies are subiect vnto him and in his power vntill such time as they be sanctified and that the earthly fleshe bee transformed and changed into a spirituall nature And therfore say they that that body hath neede both in his buriall whilest that he is in this earth to be purified sanctified through prayers sacrifices encensements exorcismes coniurations and other ceremonies fit for the same Theophilus Durand in that booke wherein he yeldeth the reason of all the popish ceremonies speaking of the office and burying of the dead allegeth the same reasons and almost nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabalistes Wherein we may well know that the supersticious christians followe more the Iewish and Cabalisticall doctrine then the Christian and Apostolicall doctrine For Durand himselfe is compelled to confesse that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their sinnes which could not then by such things be defaced put out But to the ende that the wicked spirites and theyr presence should be dryuen away And therefore saith hée that in some places they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue with the fire and encense and that the holy water is put there to the eâ—de that the diuell shoulde not come neere for he doth feare it very much Hillarius It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier vnto whom the diuel appeared so terrible that he could not speake for feare And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche Fryer Giles could not arise but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a vessell wherein was holy water wherewith hee sprinkled himselfe and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him Theophilus Behold a good proofe the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Iesus Christe and the faith in him or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith which is the buckler and shield wherewith the Apostle teacheth vs to resist the diuell I do muche meruaile where God hathe commauÌ„ded to driue away the diuell by water and when the true seruants of God haue vsed such weapons aginste the diuell Hillarius At the leastwise they must prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water Theophilus When the witnes of the scripture faileth it must néedes be that those maisters of ceremonies haue then recourse vnto fables But for to returne againe vnto the reasons of Durand he addeth moreouer that in what soeuer place the christians shal be buried out of the churchyarde they ought to set alwayes a crosse at his head For the diuell doth feare very much that signe dareth not to come nigh the place where he seeth the crosse Hillarius That is bicause that the earth which is out of the church yard is not coniured Wherby it hath not so much vertue And therfore in recoÌ„pence they do ad y crosse for to driue away the diuell Theophilus For y same cause do they also coniure y earth of y churchyard For as they do witnes affirme the diuels haue vsed to get theÌ„ vnto the dead bodies and to exercise their cruelty and vengeaunce against them and inforce themselues to do vnto them at the least wise after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whilest they were aliue Furthermore they say that at the day of iudgement our Lorde Iesus Christe will say vnto them that present themselues vnto him that whiche be aunswered vnto the disciples of the Herodians and Pharises when they asked of him the question of the tribute and that they had shewed vnto him the money and Image of Cesar Euen so will he say vnto those whose is this Image what money is this Then those which shal be marked with the crosse shal be knowen to bee good christian money And Iesus Christ will say that whiche is Cesars that is to say vnto the diuell giue it him that which is vnto God giue it to God. Hillarius I am abashed if the diuell dares carrye away those which haue made vppon them the signe of the materiall crosse especially the priestes and moonks whiche are all hyd and couered with them Are not these goodly reasons and most worthy of such diuines Eusebius Yea those are Godly reasons what will you say to the contrary do ye thinke that soe manye wise men which haue bene in the churche haue not well considered the causes wherefore they ought to do that And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good iust reason Theophilus Thou hast heard them and thou hast also the Iewes Cabalists and Panyms for to be the firste authors of them But those dreames are yet more tollerable and worhty of pardon then those here bycause that hauing the braine full of false opinions and inchauntments they feare least the enchauntors Magitians and especially the coniurers and the diuell with them should abuse their bodies thorow their enchauÌ„tments necromances witchcraft But what excuse or coloure can the christians haue who ought to be assured of their saluation in Iesus Christ as wel for the body as for the soule vsing such ceremonies which I may truly call charmes inchauntements magicall supersticions and purifications and not euangelical For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth how will God permit and suffer that that olde serpent shall defile those bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple habit ation of his holy ghost And whiche haue bene consecrated vnto him thorow the bloud of his sonne Iesus Christ and sanctified thorow his spirite haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed after the manner as the enchaunters charmers do their exorcisms coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall crosse more vertue then the consecration of our bodies and soules whiche Iesus Christ the great and soueraigne Byshoppe and eternall Priest hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy spirit and the baptisme that we haue receyued in his name And if we as good christians haue borne the crosse with him that is to say the troubles and aduersities of this world in all patience and haue put all our hope and trust in the merite of his death passion reioysing our selues only in his crosse as the holy apostle saith
diuers interpretacions the which I will recyâ—â— some to the ende that thou shouldest not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which haue expounded it Or that I am more arrogant then all men and that I doe attribute more to my sence and iudgdement then to any other If I define rashlye of a thinge the which all the Expositours haue founde it so obscure and harde that many among them haue bene constrayned to confesse that they cannot vnderstande it Then I will touch the diuers expositions which are more sufferable Afterwardes I will signifie vnto you that which I thinke to be most proper There are some which doe not vnderstand that Saint Peter speaketh héere but of the lyuing vnto whom Iesus Christ hath preached the gospell aswell in his owne proper person as by his Prophets and Apostles which haue all spoken by his spirite Wherefore one may well say that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto theÌ„ sith that it was not they that did speake but Iesus Christ who by his holy spirite did speake in them Those heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie and doe vnderstande by the spirits which were in prison the dead vnto whom it is sayd in the chapter following that the Gospell was preached saying that saint Peter by that seconde place expoundeth the first Now by these dead vnto whom hath bene preached they vnderstand not the dead but doe take that word by a Metaphore vnderstanding by the dead the sinners which are dead thorâ—w sinne the which he hath called before the spirits which were in prison bicause that the soule which is dead thorow sinne is holden by the same as a prisoner which is in bondes and fetters in the stockes and in prison Those which doe expounde it after that manner notwithstanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words yet neuerthelesse they doe a lytâ—le differ touching that spirite by the which Iesus Christ went and preached vnto the spirits which were in prison For some doe expound it for the manifestation of Iesus Christ which hath bene before his comming Others for that which hath followed his comming These heere doe vnderstand by the spirite the holy Ghost which Iesus Christ sent and gaue vnto his â—posâ—les by the which he hath preached the Gospel to the Iewes and â—entiles which before were rebellious and disobedient vnto the worde of God. Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and disobedient spirits deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of sinne For although that Iesus Christ ascended into heauen and hath taken his body from vs yet neuerthelesse he is alwaies among vs by the vertue of his spirite by the which he speaketh in his Apostles Ministers and Euangelycall Pastors and preacheth and admonisheth alwayes the sinners and toucheth their heart and conducteth and leadeth their spirits by his for to make them enter into his Church for to saue the elect in the same as those which were saued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this exposition contrary to the Analogie of the faith and the sence of the Scriptures But yet neuerthelesse it séemeth to some to be a lyttle allegorised and vyolated and to stray a lyttle too far front the Apostolycal simplycitie Although that it be tollerable and Christian lyke Others doe vnderstande by the spirite of Christ his eternall vertue by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde as he is at this present the Sauiour by the water as he doth now by the baptisme And therefore they doe vnderstand that he is gone by his spirit by his diuine vertue by his word thorow out the world as he passed thorow out Aegipt declaring his power among the Aegyptians sauing the Israelites Asmuch hath hée done in the time of the floude and doth yet at this day For he declareth his Iudgement vnto the wicked hath drowned them in the floude euen as now he declareth it vnto all to the ende that his seruaunts may be saued in the Arke of the Churche and the others drowned by the Iudgement of god Therefore is Noe called the herauld of righteousnesse for to declare that by the same the spirite of Iesus Christ declareth vnto men the righteousnes and Iudgement of God as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes vnto those which doe rebell agaynst him and refuse peace And the word which Saint Peter vsed when he sayd y Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirits doth not signifie onely to preach but also to publish a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld And that worde herauld the which Saint Peter vsed speaking of Noe is taken of the very same of which he vseth saying that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirites And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them spirits they thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections beeing possessed with euill spirits And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written God did sée y all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen vnto euill And vppon that which Saint Paul speaking of the power which is giuen vnto him by the ministring of the Gospell sayth that it is for to beat downe euery high thing which exalteth it selfe agaynst God and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and spirites of men to the obedtence of Christ delyuering them from the subiection of the wicked spirites which doe holde captiâ—e the spirites and vnderstanding of the reprobate They doe vnderstand then by the spirites which were in prison those which were in the spirituall prison or whose spirits were deteyned in captiuitie and prison by the wicked spirits They haue yet regard vnto that that the scripture calleth those which perished by the floude the sonnes of God which did see the daughters of men and to that which is there written that the Lord did strike and destroy euery soule and taketh from the middes of them euery spirite and that he hath sayd in threatning them that he will take from them his spirite For that cause they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call such men spirits bicause that whilest that their spirits did sleepe and were detemed by the wicked spirits they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the sloude and the spirit was taken from them as to him which was strangled and câ—oked in the water They also haue regarde to that that that worde which Saint Peter hath vsed which we doe interprete prison doth also signifie the watche and warde which is kept in the night Insomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vnto the parable of Iesus Christ which admonisheth euery one to watch as the faithfull seruant looking for his master who knoweth not what houre hée will come whether it be in the seconde thirde or fourth watch of the night and for a
full resolution they will fall vppon this sence Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh body and humanitie yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite that is to say by his eternall vertue and diuine power by the which hee is not onely risen from death but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh and hath tourned death into lyfe quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person he declared that he is so dead that there is no lyfe but in his death and that none can lyue but by him and that he is not onely to day but euerlasting and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells the proude and peruerse spirits oppressed with wicked spirites which were not vnder their kéeping but did sléepe not thinking on the iudgement of god vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them as he doth yet at this present by that same spyrite by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe. Hillarius It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated far fetched neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter Theophilus Bicause that the place is obscure hard I dare not to define pronounce of it rashly But I would gladly put forth these expositions to that ende you may iudge of theÌ„ for to awake the spirits for to finde out some better thing Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest that is to say that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie vertu of Iesus Christ of his death and passion witnesseth that it was so great that the lyuing haue not onely felt perceiued it but the dead also vnto whom it is come But in what manner or after what sort How is it communicated vnto vs and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe and hath communicated vnto vs his vertue so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade both during their lyse and after their death For it is sayde of Abraham that he did sée the day of the Lord and reioyced If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice wée cannot doubt but that he and all the others which were in his bosome haue felte it more fully when he did manifest himselfe more fully By this we may well vnderstand whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie that it goeth vnto the dead what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ sith that none can do it but he himself by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth towards the dead such as is among the lyuing but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs but in their maner and such as apperteineth vnto them euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse but by an other meane then vnto vs bicause that their condition was contrary We must not then dreame out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell and a preaching such as wée haue But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen for to make vs feele his vertue so it is not necessary to descend into hell For the vertue of his spirite is such that it filleth heauen and earth and is spread abrode euery where Hillarius As I thinke our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure wheÌ„ they setled themselues to dispute whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell Amongest the which some of them are founde to bée of opinion that he did Theophilus If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise and how Iesus Christ descended into hell when his soule was sorrowfull and in anguish euen vnto the death and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes insomuch that he was stroken beaten of God hath suffered death after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise in which it was for to goe into hell For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand which haue receiued consolation and vnto those of the reprobate declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending Eusebius To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe of which it is also spoken in Zachery saying I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water Theophilus By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon he will deliuer his people that are captiue kept in the bottom of all miseries By the prisoners he vnderstandeh his people that bée in captiâ—itie by y euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie a goulse and bottome of all miserye from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth yea yet without water in which one cannot swimme to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie and the grace and mercy of God towardes them When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude bondage of the law vnder those shadows figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in
followe the example of Iesus Christ and his Prophetes and Apostles who haue alwayes taught those with whome they had to doe in a language that they coulde beste vnderstande For that cause was gyuen vnto the Apostles the gyfte of tongues for to preach vnto all people and Nations knowing that the language ought to serue to the matter and not the matter to the language Wherefore considering that some men doe write in Hebrewe some in Greeke some in Latin others in Almayne and in Flemish others in Italian and Spanish I haue also written in a language with which I am best acquainted and haue most familiaritie according to my byrth and natiuitie Although that the matters that I entreate off shoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue and shoulde be vnto me more aduauntage For oftentimes I haue the matter ready that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours where I néede not to trauaile to translate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impossible especially vnto mée to sette them out wyth such grace and to interprete them so natiuely as they sound in their naturall language Hebrewe Greeke or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin I am not much better in french Wherefore although I doe not speake the language of Attica nor well beautified lyke a Retricion but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude speache Or if I wander astraye in Fraunce and that I come agayne into the countrey I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth such faultes and especially in the rymes and French verses which sometyme I mingle in these Dialogues following the example of the good Authours which haue willingly kept this custome to translate into verse after their owne language that whiche they alledge of the Poets which haue written it in an other language The which I haue done sometime bycause that I put in the margentes those Authours by the which I helpe my selfe for to discouer and vnhide better the abuses and superstitions to the ende that some men shoulde not thincke that I speake of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce and wythout iust occasion If ther be in my verses but little rime it sufficeth me so that it haue some reason For I do not make profession of Poetry it sufficeth me to tourne them grosly or plainely Besides that that I am an euill Oratour yet I am a worse Poet. Yet neuerthelesse I am fully certified that so many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte both in Poetry and French prose shall haue none occasion to enuye mée nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verses to haue the crowne of Baye and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name Also I hope that those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to speake wyll consider to beare with my rude style as the Athenians who were the cummingest in all Greece both in doctrine and in language haue not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher Anacharsis notwithstandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation They must also consider whiche knowe the greatnesse of the countrey wherein I am I haue sometimes vsed expresly some woordes which shall not bée receyued of those which sludye in the finenesse of the French tongue but I doe the same for to condiscend to the rudenesse and capacitie of the most ignoraunt whiche better vnderstande those woordes taken from their language then others that are more fine and eloquent Furthermore although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye style and more elâ—quent then I can and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge Yet neuerthelesse I doe not thincke that those whiche knowe that Christian simplicitie and modestie is wyll neyther despyse my language nor my doctrine but that they wyll take it all in good parte consideringe that if Amos whiche was a shepeheard and many other Prophetes of base condition haue not vsed so high a style nor haue spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid or that great Oratour Esay of the royall linage and brought vp in the court they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to speake through Gods spirite and to profite very muche in hys Church whose style they haue vsed And althoughe that the Euangelisles and Apostles haue not written in such pompe of woordes nor haue not so much trauayled after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde by theyr â—ude stile then the others by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any comparison But if wée consider Gods woorkes wée shall knowe that the holye Ghost althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence whych is one of his gyftes yet neuerthelesse hée delighteth himselfe more in the simplicitie of language for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym I speake this bicause of some delicate moâ—thes and curious of language which regarde not but the stile and the manner phrase of speaking without considering the sentence and that that one speaketh as though men doe write for the tongue and for to learne onely for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes not rather for to instruct the spirite soule and the conscience They regarde but the flowers and care not for the fruite And which is worse one shall finde them of such corrupt iudgementes that they preferre the paynted flowers before those that growe naturally thinckeing to beautifie their language and to enrich the French tongue GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make and howe they mangle the Latine so that they doe speake neither Latine nor french But desiring to auoide and not to vse all that which they thincke to bée common to the ende they might bée estéemed the greater Oratours doe forge and inuent a newe language and doe despise the good French woordes for to steale awaye those from straunge tongues That curiositie and affection of language is the cause that many delite rather to reade bookes full of scoffinges fables lyes and of blasphemyes then those of diuinitie or of some good diuines and holy men And this vice is not onely in the French tongue but also in that Latine For ther are some which haue so great feare to defile their golden tongue and to embrew their goodly stile with the simplicitie basenesse of the Propheticall and Apostolicall language that they had rather to defile their soules vnderstandinges and spirites in foolishe curious bookes or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters
enter into the matter I bring in the persons who take their theame and matter vpon a fermon which they heard of an holy father entreating of such matters And although the matter might seeme wholy to be fayned yet it hath the foundacion vppon a true history For mine intent is partly in this first disputacion to rebuke the sottish and vayne curiositie of foolish Preachers and Doctors who haue forsaken the principal points of the holy Scripture to occupy thēselues vpō vnprofitable questions vayne contemplations to enquire of things that they cannot know and which wee haue not to doe withall And which serue to none other ende but to hinder and let the poore Christian people to seeke out the will of God to induce and lead them to false religion supersticion Idolatay and all Paganisme Also I declare the Arguments of the Popes Purgatorie with the Purgatorie of the Panims and the ceremonies and supersticions which they vse about the dead out of what spring they issued and what haue bene the purgations of the Panims which the Idolatrous Christians do yet keepe and how the Papisticall Purgatory hath serued the insatiable auarice of those which doe lyue to destroy and deuoure all the poore world Also how the priests Purgatorie is burned how fire hath taken the same and what punishment is prepared for those which go vnto strange fire to be purged from their sinnes any other then the fire of lesus Christ and how the priests do disagree both from the word of God and from their owne doctrine decrees and cannōs After those things we shal enter into the secōd part which shall entreat of the appearing of the spirites of those that be dead All these things shal be yet more playnly vnderstoode and better confirmed by the Dialogues following of the which the last shal be of the immortalitie of the soules and the resurrection of the flesh Afterwardes we will come vnto the lyuing and in the other parts wee shall enter into matters yet more graue more necessary and of greater importance for the present time to shew what is the estate of the world of relygion and by what meanes that man which feareth God and the poore troubled and doubtfull consciences may be assured and know what is the true Church the truth and wherevnto they may surely stay themselues and how they may be certeine what doctrine is of god I haue intituled this first Dialogue the Alchymee of Purgatory chiefely for two causes The first bicause I declare how the auncient Panims and our priests after their example doe trauayle to extract the fifte essence of the soules which they melt in their furnaces of Purgatory The other is bicause from those furnaces our priests do drawe out the Philosophicall stone ¶ For to enter then into the matter Hillary beginneth asking his companions of the Sermon which they heard ¶ THE FIRST DIALOGVE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatorie The Speakers Hillarius Eusebius Theophilus Thomas HIllarius If mine eyes haue not deceiued mée I thinke I saw you all thrée to day at the Sermon wherefore I desire to know your opinions how the same pleased you and what you thinke of the Preacher Eusebius As far as I can iudge I thinke that he is very skilfull and cloquent for he hath spoken very learnedly and deepely of matters so obscure and profounde Hillarius He could not speake more profoundly For he hath pearced euen vnto y very centre of the earth therfore I am the more abashed that he spake so cléerly of matters so obscure and of these darke places no man euer saw ought For the Sunne neuer shineth there Theophilus As far as I could perceiue by him I thinke that eyther he hath not bene in those places of which he spake or els if he were it is long agoe If the opinion of Isydore be true we shall haue very small occasion to giue credite to this ghostly father and to his preachinge Eusebius Hath Isydore ben of an other opinion then the rest of the Christian Doctors touching this matter Theophilus There is none among the Christians which doubteth that there is an hell seeing that the holy Scripture rendereth so sure and vndoubtefull a testimony with the which we ought to content our selues not willyng to know any further then it hath reuealed it vnto vs It ought to suffice vs which Iesus Christ witnesseth vnto vs that there is an hell of eternall vnquenchable fire where the worme dieth not but wher ther is euerlasting horrour weeping gua hing of teeth we need not to enquire of the place for I thinke ther is none which desireth to go thether And therfore we haue néede to praye vnto GOD that it woulde please him to giue vs his grace to know his will and to be able to accomplish it thorow his sonne Iesus Christ to the ende we may auoide that hell fire and extreme darkenesse We néede not much to stay to know in what place hell is whether it is in the centre of y earth according to the common opinion of the Doctors of Plato which saith y it is in the depth of the earth or whether it is vnder the earth in the country of the Antipodes according to the opinion of Isydore who sayth that after the day of iudgement the Sunne and the Moone shall kéepe themselues so stedfaste in heauen that they shall no more tourne round about the earth but giue their lyght and brightnesse onely in that part of the world in y which we dwell and that the damned shal be all sent away vnder the earth into those horrible darkenesse and into those places in the which at this day some men doe thinke that the Antipodes doe dwell Hillarius If it were so that the Sunne and the Moone doth nowe shine there wée maye thinke that some one of the countrye of the Antipodes is come from thence who hath declared and described to our Preacher the scituacion of hell of Lymbo patrum and of Purgatory with al their confines in such sort and manner as he hath expounded them vnto vs. Thomas You may saye what you will and I will beléeue what pleaseth mée but I cannot thinke that he was euer there or that hée hath euer heard any one speake that came from thence hath so well visited all the places theroff For neuer in my lyfe I hearde it better deuised There is neyther hall chamber nor closet cole-panne kitchin nor seller chimney nor pot-hangers great caudron nor lyttle caudron chaynes nor flesh-hookes and other insernall vtensills but that he hath described and set them foorth so lyuely as mée thinketh I sée the thinges before mine eyes in such sort that yet I am afrayde when I thinke on them The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very dilygent and curious for to expresse declare in their instruments and writings the situacion lymtis of houses and possessions of which they make writings off But
And if that sufficeth not we sope them or put them in the bucke and bucke them or els delyuer them to the scourers for to take out the steyne Also if we haue mettall that is rusty and canckred which hath néede to be made cleane we cast it in the fire which maketh it very cleane and consumeth the drosse and rust and other false mettall and seperateth it from the pure and fine mettall Hillarius Thereby you maye knowe that the Poets haue had more witte and reason and better colour so to do then the Priestes For they haue considered the nature of the sinnes and of the sinners together as a good Phisition doth behold the completion of those that are sicke for to giue vnto euery one a conuenient and sit remedy for his disease For they haue regarde that mans bodye was made of the foure Elements and that the completion and the affections of man doe follow the temperatnesse of the body and the nature of the elements of which they were made Forasmuch then as the body is the house and habitacion of the soule that the soule hath bene holden within that earthly body as in a prison and darke dungeon it is impossible but that it is corrupted and defiled with the filthinesse of that infectious body as he which shall depart out of an infectious and stincking prison And therefore Plato and the other Philosophers and Poets which followed his opinion haue thought that the soules had néede of some purgation after that they were seperated from the body bicause that after their departing it was impossible but that they should carry with them and kéepe some filthinesse of that corrupt flesh bicause of the coniunction conuersation and familiaritie that they had together Neuerthelesse bicause that the bodyes are not all of one complexion but according to the disposition and temperatenesse of the elements of which they are made some are more earthely and other some more heauenly according to the doctrine that they haue receiued and the exercise that they haue had in vertue some more vicious or vertuous then the others Euen so haue they estéemed and thought that the soules did differ according to the difference of the bodies from which they came out They haue then considered that there are some sinnes that are more thin easie lighter then others holding more of the nature of the ayre and of the winde then of the earth And therefore they must purge them by the element which approcheth néerest to their nature and which séemeth for them the best remedie The others that are more heauy and wayghtie as the water is more heauyer and wayghtyer then the ayre and winde are washed in the water For they doe holde most of the nature of the water And therefore they put them in the bucke wherein they driue beat and wash them very cleane Besides those there are other more wayghtyer and heauyer and altogether earthlye whome neyther the wyndâ— nor the water can make cleane And therfore y Soules that haue ben so defiled with y filthinesse of their vile wicked body so much giuen vnto y pleasures of y body that they are almost degenerated become earthly are purged by the fire For thei haue néede of a hotter stronger elemeÌ„t for to purifie them and for to consume all filthe and drosse that there remayne nothing but the pure mettall of the celestiall nature For contraries are healed by contraries But least you should thinke that I am the authour and inuentour of that Philosophie and that I speake these thinges of mine owne head and for my profite behold how the Poet speaketh in whose verses you shal finde comprised in few words a great part of that Platonicall Plutarchall Theologie where he writeth of the soules seperated from the body after this manner MOreouer when their end of lyfe and lyght doth them forsake Yet can they not their sins nor sorrows all poore souls of shake Nor all contagions fleshly from them voydes but must of neede Much things cogeÌ„dred long by wondrous means at last out spread Therefore they plagued bene and for their former faults and sins Their sundry paynes they bide som hye in ayre doth hang on pins Some fleeting bene in flouds deepe in gulfs themselues they tire Till sinnes away be washt or cleansed cleere with purging fire Each one of vs our penaunce heere abydes then sent we bee To Paradise at last we fevv fields of ioy doe see Till compasse long of time by perfect course hath purged quite Our former cloddred spots and pure hath left our ghostly spirite And sences pure of soule and simple sparkes of heauenly lyght Thomas I doe thinke that the Alcumistes haue taken theire foundacion vppon that Philosophieâ— For that is the true manner for to extract the fifte essence But I thinke that those Phisiciens of the soules had néede to sée their vrine for to make them better know their complexion and to giue vnto them the medicine and purgation méete for the same Hillâ—â—ins It should be then néedefull that the Soules that are in Hell and in Purgatorye shoulde aswell haue Esculapius or Cosme and Daiman for their Phisitious as the Gods and Saints haue in heauen and by a better reason For the Gods and the Saints haue no more néede neither of medicine nor of purgation as the poore soules haue that are kept in Purgatory I know not how the auncient Poets and Painims haue gyuen vnto Mercury the office of Phisicke for to practice his medicines in Hell with which hée guideth the soules for to make them to passe ouer the floudes by Charon the ferry man For he had bene very méete and proper for the soules Thomas But when they shall haue a Phisition who shall bée their Poticary for to make their drouges Hillarius The Priestes which haue their shops full and are better furnished with them then euer the Panims were which had chiefly thrée sortes of drougs for the purgacions as well of the quicke as the dead the which Ouid hath comprehended in thrée woordes saying Three times the olde man vvashed vvas vvith Water faire cleere And vvith hot fire and Sulphur strong he purged doth appeare Besides these purgations of the water fire brimstone they had also their holy winnowinges or faminges which they vsed chiefly at the feastes and sacrifices of God Baccus the which they made with a fanne consecrated for that pourpose Theophilus Beholde the dreamings wherein men doe fall yea the most wisest when they gyue themselues to play the Philosopher with heauenly things after their owne fantasie and minde without the spirite of God and that they doe séeke the purgation of their sinnes in their purgatories besides Iesus Christ Thomas Mée thinckes that wée doe yet reteine almost all those customes For wée doe light and offer torches tapers and candels of Waxe as well for the dead as for those
true manner the which he would teach vs by his worde and that hée would represent and frequent in the holy supper is spirituall and not carnall as he himselfe witnesseth sayinge It is the spirite that quickeneth the fleshe profiteth nothing The woordes that I haue sayde are spirite and lyfe Theophilus That is not ment that the fleshe of Iesus Christ doth not profite any thing the faithful sith y he himselfe calleth it the bread which came downe from heauen without which we cannot haue life nourishment nor saluation But the carnall sence and vnderstandinge of hys woordes and suche intelligence as the Capeâ—naites and hearers that were offended had is the fleshe eaten in such sorte as they vnderstande it For when wée shall haue the very fleshe of Iesus Christ in our mouth and that wée doe crashe it wyth our téeth and disgest it in our stomack it profiteth vs no more then to Iudas to haue kissed him and to the hangmen to haue touched him yea to bée sprinckled in hys bloude and to haue had his garmentes For Iesus Christ doth profite nothinge béeing knowen after the flesh except he be knowen through fayth by the whiche hée filleth and satisfieth vs also wyth his fleshe and bloude Therefore it is not néedefull that he discende from heauen nor y he remoue froÌ„ place to place for to feede vs in that manner wyth his fleshe and bloude and for to bée present wyth vs and in the middest of vs For he dwelleth in our heartes by fayth and lyueth in vs and quickeneth vs by his holy spirit Wherfore he calleth not the faythfull hys sepulchre but the temple of the liuing god For hée is not deade in the heartes of the faythfull but lyueth there and the faythfull by hym Euen as then the sunne is present wyth vs althoughe it descende not from heauen into the earth and maketh vs to féele hys vertue and power it illuminateth vs and through his heate and brightnesse nourisheth and quickeneth both man and beastes better then if it were héere in earth with vs euen so Iesus Christ that greate sonne of righteousnesse through his diuine power and vertue of his holye spirite doth gyue vnto our soules and bodyes hys flesh and his bloude and doth nourishe and fill vs and maketh vs to feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion and of his body and bloude that hée hath gyuen for vs better then if we did eate his flesh with our téeth and there dyd deuoure and swallow it in wyth his bloud in our stomacke insomuch that there is not a body which is so well nourished and fedde wyth bread and wine that hée eatcth and drincketh as the faythfull who with a true and liuely faith commeth vnto him and receyueth his woorde and communicateth the Sacramentes that he hath ordayned is filled and satisfied wyth his flesh and his bloude For hée hath sayde he that commeth to mée shall not hunger and he that beléeueth on mée shall neuer thurst If he that commeth and beléeueth in him shall no more hunger nor thurst it followeth then that in beléeuing and communicating his Sacramentes hée hath eaten and dronken and is satisfied Hillarius That sufficeth which you haue nowe spoken off friend Theophilus for to proue my meaning For we haue not at this present neyther better time nor fitter occasion for to pursue more fully that matter But I wil not graunt vnto thée Eusebius that the Priestes doe eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christe after that sorte For sith that they séeke his carnall presence they depriue themselues of his spiritual presence according to the witnesse of the Apostle which sayth Wée haue an Aulter whereoff they maye not eate whiche serue in the Tabernacle If those who doe serue in the Tabernacle of Moses and put yet all their affiaunce in the leuitical Ceremonies and sacrifices are shutte out and depriued from the true sacrifice of Iesus Christe what communion can those haue wyth hym who haue altogether ouerthrowen his Sacramentes and Ordinaunces and haue founde out and inuented newe sacrifices more intollerable then euer the Iewes vsed There is an other manner to eate the fleshe and drincke the bloude of Iesus Christ the which I cannot graunt vnto them y is the carnall eating as the Caparnaites dyd vnderstande it euen as one eateth the fleshe of the butchery Iesus Christe whiche is at the ryght hande of God cannot bée eaten after that sorte For hée is the breade of Angels and of the true chyldren of God and of his shéepe and not of Dogges Wolues Hogges Lyons and wilde beastes But I wyll graunte vnto them the thirde manner to eate Iesus Christ and doe confesse wyth thée that they doe eate it truelye reallye and essentiallye not onely in flesh and bones but which is more least you shoulde accompte mée for an hereticke besides the flesh and bones they doe eate the skinne and breake the bones for to sucke out the marrowe that is therein bycause they haue founde suche good taste in the meate Thomas If they doe so they doe worse then the Iewes For they brake not a bone of Iesus Christ Theophilus That was bicause that it was necessarye that in him should be fulfilled which was figured represented by the pascall Lambe of which they must leaue his bones whole For we cannot haue Iesus Christ but that we must haue him whole his vertue power cannot be broken by death it selfe Thomas I haue not yet very wel vnderstood you Hillarius I will declare it vnto thée by a cléere demonstration by euident arguments Diddest thou not first confesse vnto me that all the true faithfull are the true members of Iesus Christ Thomas I confesse it Hillarius If they be members of Iesus Christ they are then his body of which he is y head as the Apostle doth witnesse in many places Thomas I doe agrée vnto you in that Hillarius Forasmuch then as the faithfull are the body of Iesus Christ you will also graunt mée that those which eate the faithfull and poore widowes orphants doe eate Iesus Christ And if you will denie it I will proue it by that that Iesus Christ sayd vnto Saul saying Saul Saul why persecutest thou me In the same manner then as Iesus Christ doth complaine himselfe to be persecuted wheÌ„ his members are So may I say without digressinge from the Scripture that those eate Iesus Christ that do eat his members Thomas But you haue not yet proued that the Priests doe eate the members of Iesus Christ Hillarius It hath ben alredy proued by the things that were spoken before For haue I not already tolde thée how they doo eate both the quicke dead But least thou shouldest thincke that I speake without the Scripture beholde his witnesse What doe you vnderstande by that rebuke and checke that God did vnto the tyrants and enemies of his people when he complained
sing the daye of the feaste of Candlemas as it is contayned in the Pissell not that I will recyte word for word all their blessing but onely the principall points for to proue our meaning by the which thou maist iudge of the rest They sing unto God we hubly besech thee that thorow the muecation of thy holy name and by the intercession of the holy uirgin Mary the mother of thy sonne whose feast this day we deuoutely celebrate by the prayers of al thy Saincts that it would please thee to blesse and sanctifie these candles for the use of man and the health of the soules and bodies bee it in the earth or in the waters Beholde their owne proper wordes rehearsed truely worde for worde Where haue they founde that the Candels do serue for the health of the soules and bodies and that they haue any other use theu for to giue light unto the corporall eyes but in the bookes of the Panims But by and afferwards they do say worse Parke then their wordes O Lord Iesus Christ we humbly beseche thee to blesse this creature of war and shead soorth in the same thy heauenly blessing by the vertue of the holy Crosse to the ende that as thou hast guien it unto makinde for to put driue away the darknes it may recelue such force and benediction by the signe of thy holy crosse in what place soeuer it shall be lighted or set that that wicked diuell may flee and tremble and auoyd altogether amased and made a fraide with all his ministers from those habitations and that hée presume no more to trouble those which do serue god And by and by after there is yet more Ido blesse thee thou creature of war in the name of our Lorde God and of the holy Trinitie to the ende thou mayst be the extermination and driuing away of the Diuell and all his complises What mockery is this must the name of GOD bee so abused in Charmes and Witchecraftes For wherein doe these benedictions and blessings dyffer from the charmes and coniuratyons of sorcerers and witches aswell as the Exorcisme and adiuration of their holy water and Salte whiche they put into it What doeth that Exorcisine and adiuration signiste I exercise and adiure thee thou Creature of Salte by the liuing GOD by the true GOD by the holy GOD by the GOD which comnaunded that thou shouldest bee put into the water by the Prophet Eliseus for to heale the sterilitie and barrennes of the waters to the ende thou be made an adiured Salt to the health of them that beleeue to the ende that thou mayst be unto all those which will take thée health of soule and bodye and that all fantasie malyce dsuhtyle crafte of the diuell maye auoyde and depart from the place where thou shalt bee sheade abrcade and all vncleane spirite adiured by him which shall iudge the quicke and the dead and the world with fire Hillarius Thou wilt make vs here by and by holye water Sith that thou hast made the Exorcisine sing nowe the Oremus Theophilus There are no lesse blasphemics in it But sith that thou wilt haue it thou shalt O eternall God altogether mightie we humbly innocate and call vpon thy infinite clemency that it would please thée to blesse †and sanctifie †this creature of Salt the which thou hast giuē for the vse of mankinde to the ende that it may bée vnto all those which will take it helth of soule and body and that all that which shalbée touched with the same or sprinkled should bee without any filth and all the assault and cembat of the spirituall enemie Hillarius I haue heard many Priesses who in stéed to say Careatomni immundicia doe say Careat omni mundicia But they do vse the figure whiche the Gramarians do call Apheresis or for to speake better the figure called the ignoraunce of the Gramer I doe verelye thincke that all that whiche they sprinckle abideth well according to the prayer that they make wythout cleanenesse Wherefore those whom they doe sprinckle when they make their great Asperges me maye very well saye as Valentinian sayde who was the chiefe Captayne in the Courte of Iuhan the Apostate but yet neuerthelesse a good Christian and afterwardes chosen Emperour Thomas What sayd he Hillarius At a certeyne time as lulian entered into the Temple of Fortune and that on both the sides of the doores the ministers and Priests of the Temple were who accordinge as they made men to vnderstand thorow that sprinckling of that water did purge those that did enter in after the same manner as cur priests doe yet at thys daye to those whiche doe enter or goe foorth of the church Valentinian who did goe before lulian the Prince espyed a droppe of that water which had bene shed vppon his cloake for which he was very angry insomuch that he gaue a Priest Minister of the temple a great stroke with his fist saying Thou hast defiled mée not purged mée Hée had as much good reason as Diogenes who at a certeine time béeing entered into a filthy stincking bath sayde Those which doe bathe and wash themselues héere wher doe they wash them Letting therby to vnderstand that those which bathe and wash them in those bathes come foorth more filthy then they were before they entered and that they haue more neede to bée washed then before for they haue gathered nothinge but filthynesse But this Apothegme and sentence neuer agréed better then with our Priestes whiche defile all those which goe vnto them howe cleane soeuer they be But thou halt yet adiured and coniured but the salt Yet remaineth the water Theophilus They do blaspheme yet moreouer For they pray that it may be adiured and coniured for to driue away all the power of the enemie and to teare and pluck vp the enemies themselues with all his apostate Angels and for to drwe away the Diuels and diseases and that all that which shall be sprickneled with it either in the houses or in the place of the faythfull shoulde bée wythout spot or hurt that the spirite of pestilence doe not remaine and rest there nor the infectious windes nor aire that al vncleane spirites and the terrour of the venomous Serpent and all the assaultes and ambusshes of the euemye and all euill bée altogether driuen away To conclude they require that it maye doe all thinges And so by that meanes wée shall haue no more néede of Iesus Christ The Candles the Ware the Salt and the Water wyll doe all Eusebius You speake very euyll For you maye well perceiue howe they yraye vnto God that hée woulde giue vnto them that vertue by his sonne Iesus Christ whō they acknowledge to be the authour of all good things Theophilus If they acknowledge him for such a one what néede haue they then of War Salt and Water for to obtaine of him the goods which are
this custome that in the prayers of the Priestes which they doe make vnto God at his aulter the recommendation of the soules hath also his place And did not Monica the Mother of Sainct Augustine require that they should make remembraunce of hir in the sacrament of the aulter For that cause hath Sainct Gregory written that the soules of the dead are deliuered in scure manners and sorts either by the oblations of the Priestes or by the prayers of the Sainctes or by the aimes of their friendes or by the fastinges of their parents I doe not thincke that these two learned men would haue written suche thinges wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures And it is not lyke that the Church hath kept that custome so longe time but that shée was well assured that it came from the Apostles and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene as witnesseth Isidore for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian who were next vnto the Apostles they made prayers sacrifyces and oblations for the dead For Sainct Denis maketh expresse mention of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie and that he woulde place him in lyght and in the region and countrey of the liuinge and in the bosome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye â—â—oblation for the dead I haue declared vnto thée many witnesses and of great authoritie I haue alledged vnto thee the custome of the auncient Church which is a witnesse which is worth a thousande I haue alledged vnto thée the practise of the auncient Doctors They doe sufficiently declare both they haue vsed and chiefely Sainct Augustine who â—â—â—â—â—festly witnesseth that the same was ordeyned of the authors which the vniuersall Church kéepeth that is no say that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Christ when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place in the sinne very socrifice that one ought to maye and make remembraunce that one doe also offer that sacrifice for them Wherefore he sayth that we must not omit the supplication the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo for the spirites and soules of all the dead which are departed in the Christian society and company Theophilus I thinke that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set foorth the principall weapons that thou canst finde for to defende thy quarrell and that if I haue once satisfied those obiections I beleeue that the matter shall bée ended as soone as hée toucheth the witnesse and authoritie of the auncient fathers As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hieratchies I haue already ready tolde thée what it was For who knoweth not that that booke of the celestiall Hierarchia is more worthy to be some dreamer then of Sainct Denis the Disciple of Sainct Paul For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Master then the dreames of his owne head and hée woulde not haue spoken of such matters otherwise then hée in his Epistles If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis whatsoeuer it bée thou shalt there finde that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that bée aliue and not for the dead And doth confirme that which wée haue already spoken off of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayse the dead Wherefore it shoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before if thou wouldest vnderstande that which one telleth thée But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée I haue already sufficiently declared vnto thee from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firste and what hath bene the custome of the auncient fathers the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popish Church Wherefore that whiche thouhast alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian that holy Martyr who hath read and well vnderderstanded Tertulian if euer man dyd vnderstand him For hee had him in such reputation that hee dyd call him no otherwyse but the Master thorowe his great excellentnesse Insomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes he sayde alwayes bringe mée the master And the better to declare the pleasure that hée dyd take in readinge him and the fruite that one myght therein learne receiue they saye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed vnder vys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande when hee woulde occupye and looke in it as the auncient historyes doe also wytnesse that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere For hée giueth vs sufficiently to vnderstande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead in that auncient Churche were none other thinges then the prayses and giuinge of thankes which the faythfull did render vnto God for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren whome hée hath called from this world with the other thinges whiche haue bene already spoken off which are yet done at this daye in some places in Almaigne after the auncienâ— manner But they doe call commonly the oblation and sacryfice the diuine seruice and that which they dyd in theire assembles in which they did obserue chiefly foure things The first was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of god After the prayers Afterwards the supper and last of all the gatherings and almos for the poore And they did call that oblation and sacrifice not that they dyd vnderstand and meane to offer and sacrifice Iesus Christe as the Priests say that they doe in their Masse But bicause that the Bishop and Pastor of the church and al the Christian people did come to offer present themselues vnto god did offer vnto hym their orisons giuing of thanks which are y true sacrifice of praise And their almes in like manner for to coÌ„fort y poore people of Iesus Christ They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable vnto god And they did make coÌ„memoration of the death passion of Iesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper Wherfore we must not thinke y they did make prayers offerings for the dead to the ende they should be deliuered frdiâ— the paines of Purgatory as hath bene done in our time But the praiers were the prayses and thanks that they rendered vnto God and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto those that bée liuinge The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring for to succour helpe the poore which were liuing And therefore long time amonge the auncientes that diuine soâ—â—ke that they
you but the opinions of the Doctors Wherfore I would gladly Eusebius that you would follow that matter and I desire that thou wouldest proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the yoūg children dead without circumcision baptisme Eusebius Doest thou thinke that I speake without the Scripture the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloses and expositions But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations I would thou shouldest beare the witnesse of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors namely of the worshipful Beda speaking after this manner Hée which now cryeth terribly healthfully by his Gopell except a man be borne of water the holy spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god The very same he cryed by his lawe the soule of him whose foreskinne of his flesh is not circumcifed shal perish from his people bicause he hath broken my testament Beholde a cléere probation as wel for the children of the Iewes as for those of the Christians Theophilus How vnderstandest thou that threatning against those which were not circumcised For God hath prefired eight dayes for to circumcise the young children Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day and the terme prescribed of God doest thou thinke that the saluation of those children be in daunger Eusebius The word of God excepteth neither little nor great but speaketh generally to all men Theophilus But there could haue bene no fault but in the transgressiō of the cōmaundement of god Sith then that God had determined for them the viij day wherefore ought the young children to perish which died before that terme For sith that God had lymitted the day I doubte not but that those who should haue circumcised them before the day prefired should do contrary vnto the cōmaundement of God. Eusebius I accorde vnto thée therein in those which should haue done that without necessitie and without the daunger of the death of the young childe But I beléeue that when there should haue bene any daunger they might circumeise them before that terme Theophilus And I beléeue the contrary For I can proue my reason by the Scripture the which thou canst not doo thine If it were so then as y sayst it should follow y god was not well aduised when he made that ordinaunce and that the Isralites shoulde be wiser by right and that hée should doe great wrong vnto them sith that he hath not aduertised them of that doing and that he gaue none exception It followeth in lyke manner if the circumcision had bene so necessary vnto saluation that all the woemen children and woemen should perish fith that they dyed all without circumcision the which yet neuerthelesse no man dareth to affirme sith that there hath bene so many holy women of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes Eusebius It is easie to reproue thy consequence For in the institution of the circumcision it is spoken expressely of the males not of the females Theophilus The law yet neuerthelesse sayth euery soule euery person Wherefore if we must take the wordes by rigor without a fitte interpretation wée must comprehend the females if there had bene none other places which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence vnderstanding of the lawe besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare that it extendeth not vnto the women Thē if the womē be exempt bicause that the lawe bindeth them not so are the Infants which dye before the eight day For they are not bound by the law before the terme or otherwise God would not haue held his peace sooner then of ther thinges which were not of so great importance But when the eight day was come I doubt not that if thorow contempning negligence and dispising the circumcision had bene omitted but y the Lord would haue bene greatlye offended not by reason of the signe but thorowe the rebellion and dispisinge of his woorde the which hee taketh in greate displeasure as he hath shewed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabboth day It seemed that y fault was not great nor such as though he had committed a murther And yet neuertheles god punished him with a cruel death as though he had cōmitted the greatest crime in the world It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God thorow negligence dispising rebellion or to haue left it vndone thorow necessitie or bicause that it was not possible For when there is let such that man cannot auoyde it and that this minde and will was good and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it I doe not beléene that god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde For the saluation of men consisteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs by the which doth the small and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowshippe of the people of god We doe not denye but that that alliaunce is signed and sealed by the sacramēts and that the baptisme is but the signe and seals among the Christians as the circumcision was amonge the Iewes But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that signe and seale Wherfore there is no doubt but that those which do shut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the signe do vnto them great wrong and do béely the promises of God which by them haue pronounced them to be his before y they were borne saying that he is our God and the God of our children And therfore those which do make that outward baptisme so necessary vnto saluation what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments attributing vnto the material corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God wherto serueth it Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors which haue iudged that baptisme necessary vnto saluation For which cause they haue also permitted and establyshed that the woemen might and ought to baptise in tyme of necessitie But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that superstition and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promise and allyaunce nor of the reasons by mée alledged or otherwise the Israelites should haue greatly fayled and chiefely Moses which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God to haue dwelled at the least the space of fourty yeres sithens the departing from Aegypt vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan without circumcising y children Yet it is to be beléeued that during that time many dyed without being circumcysed and although none had dyed did it not séeme rightly that Moses and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god sith that they executed it not at the day appointed Thomas Is it true that they haue abode so long
he hath done it in his time Eusebius Doest thou think that there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory Theophilus To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things I will propounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off Mark then first the witnesse of the Apostle which saith writting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ that all those there hauing obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection without vs He saith not that they haue altogether receiued the promise For it was made first of all to them But he vnderstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same of which they haue not béene altogether depriued But they haue not had it so perfectly as we haue it nowe For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending he signifieth then that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie But the perfection was not yet nor shal be vntill the consuÌ„mation and restoring of all things For the terme of consuÌ„mation and perfection are relatiues the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning To which agréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church vnto whome the Lorde aunswered that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of their bretheren were fulfilled Eusebius make me to vnderstand that more clearely Theophilus Assone as we bâ—gin to knowe God in this worlde and to beléeue in Iesus Christ we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come But we haue not yet perfect ioy Yet neuerthelesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall goodnesse we grow from day to day from knowledge to knowledge from faith to faith from good to be better vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man to the fulnesse of Christ to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse Now if alreadie in this vale of misery our soule being charged with this terrestiall body shut vp and kept in the same as in a darke prison altogether wrapped in miseries sinnes and maledictions receiueth such consolation and ioy there is no doubt but that after that it is deliuered from that prison and captiâ—â—tie and hath put of all earthly corruption it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide I desâ—re to be losed and to be with Christ which thing is to â—e best of all And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir â—eâ—iâ—â—tie and perfect glorie vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie And that it be againe vnited wiâ—h it and seâ— God face to face and knowe him as we haue béene knowâ—â— of him then when he shal haue vanquished all things and shal be all in all For it is not yet appeared what we shal be but our life is hid in Iesus Christ Euen as then those which doe nowe depart out of this life haue not yet such ioy as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall appeare in glorie â—or to iudge all flesh when we shall all arise so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke that the auncient fathers which haue béene before the commâ—ng of Iesus Christ haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie before â—is resurrection as afterwarde For if the Angels themselues which alwayes doe behold the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righteous we must not doubt but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same howe great and admirable the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ sith that the angels themselues doâ— receiuâ— so great profite and increase in all goodnesse Thomas By what place of the holy scripture caâ—st thou proue that which thou speakest Theophilus They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter speaking of that matter saith that of the Prophets auncyent fathers that it hath béene reuealed vnto them y not to them selues but vnto vs they should administer the things the which saith he nowe are declared vnto you by them which haue declared the gospell by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde The Angelâ— had not that desire but that they did féele a greate goodnesse But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed to the health of men which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them neither are we also come therevnto For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which retâ—urneth vnto God also without all doubt sith that aboâ—e all things they do procure our helth and saluation it cannot be but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish Forasmuch then as their â—â—â—yâ—itie is ioyned with ours it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect For it is written expresly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde And the Apostle affirmeth that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodnesse of God the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges and princes in Christ and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe Therefore it is written that thorowe him all thinges are repaired and restored both in heauen and in earth Wherein the scripture teacheth vs that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues which had no sinne For euen as the fâ—ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them subiect vnto malediction with him so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also looâ—â—â—g for their redemption and deliuerance the which is ioyned together with his Nowe if the Angells cannot be
the one and the other agréeth more then it doth of the dead to the lyuing Secondly bicause that they themselues can better perceiue of their estate and condition and whether they bée more in payne or whethether they be out of it then we For there is more agréeing of the spirits to the spirits which are seperated from the bodye then to vs which are yet wrapped in them And which is more if that the soules of Purgatory doe know eyther by diuine reuelation or by the report of Angells or of the soules of them which dayly doe depart out of this worlde that which is done vppon earth as your Doctors doe testifie and affirme can they not aswell reporte and tell vnto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory It is not lyke to be true iâ— there bée any but that they are better aduertised then we and that many wayes And if they be aduertised I cannot beléeue that they are so inhumayne and vngentle if they doe pray for the lyuing but that they doe pray a great deale more for those poore soules sith that they are in so gréeuous torments without any comparison that may be in the world I doe speake alwayes according to your doctrine And this is the thirde reason by the which I will conclude agaynst the Priestes eyther that the Saints doe not praye for the lyuing or the it is in lyke manner necessary and a great dele more néedeful that they pray for the dead Now if they pray for the dead I am of an opinion that we leaue vnto theÌ„ al the charge For it agreeth better to them then vnto vs sith that they are no more of this world but of the other in which are those that are dead and that we haue no more cure and charge but of the lyuing If they will deny that they doe not pray for the dead I haue more iust and lawfull reason to deny vnto them that they doe not pray for the lyuing Except peraduenture they would say that the Saintes were as cruell as thâ—â— which will suffer those poore soules alwayes to burne which do bring vnto them no money Hillarius Thou hast put foorth very strong reasons But I will a little helpe Eusebius to defende his cause and will propounde and put forth reasons against thâ—â—e to which thou shalt haue much a doe to aunswere Thou speakest of the saints what wilt thou saye if I proue vnto thée by liuely strong reasons that the Pope hath more power and authoritie then they Theophilus That should be an other â—atter Hillarius I will make thy selfe confesse it Who hath more power and authoritie either God or the saints Theophilus There néedeth not an aunswere vnto thy question For one may vnderstande it without speaking There is not a Papist but will â—asely confesse that there is not a saint which hath vertue nor power but so much as God will giue vnto him Hillarius I haue my meaninge and I will nowe make thée yeâ—de thy selfe vanquished For thou hast alreadie confessed vnto me of thine owne propâ—â— moâ—th hast coâ—firmed my proposition the which I â—â—l yet better proue vnto thee and I will concluâ—e all our dispuâ—aâ—ion in a little sillogisme And I will take for my Maior and for the first proposition of my antecedent that which thou hast confessed vnto me Take then my Syllâ—gisme God hath more power and authoritie then the Saintes Nowe the Pope is god â—â—go the Pope hath more power and authoritie then the Saints The Maior is alreadie confessed by thee It resteth now but for to prâ—ue the Minor and the second proposition and afterwards the consequence and conclusion sâ—albe certâ—ine and â—â—â—ubyâ—able Nowe but that the Pope is God in â—arth thou caâ—st not dâ—nyâ—st for many reasons the which I will not nâ—we shâ—we forth But I will do more For I will prâ—ue that he is not onely the God on earth but which is more in heauen and in hell and that he doth make things which God neuer did make Theophilus By that accempt the Pope then shall not haue not only more power then the Saints but more then God himselfe Hillarius It is very true and thou thy selfe shalt Iudge it prouided that thou do heare my reasons I will not alledge for confirmation of my theame that which saint Paul hath written of Antechrist the man of sinne the sonne of perdition which exalteth himselfe aboue all that is called god or which is worshipped so y he shal sit as god in the Temple of God and shew himselfe as God Notwithstanding that that Prophecie and titles doe agrée meruaylously well to that God of whom we speake But I will procéede by an other way the which shall serue for an exposition of those words of Saynt Paul. Theophilus If thou doest as thou sayst the Pope and all the Papists shall be much bounde vnto thée For they say onely that he is God in earth Now if he be but God in the earth he hath then nothing in heauen And he must not open the gates of Paradise vnto the soules of Purgatory And so I may serue my selfe with their publyque witnesse for to proue that which I said of his keyes which cannot be stretched foorth out of this earth Hillarius A man may easely reply thereon For according to their doctrine Purgatory is in the earth Wherefore sith hat he is God in earth he may well haue some power There should be an other reason if Purgatory were betweee the Moone and the earth where Plutarch putteth it except they will say that with the earth they doe also compare the ayre and all the other elements making the Pope aswell God in the ayre water and fire as in the earth at the least thou wilt not deny but that he may wel haue the keyes of hell for to leade thether the soules and that he is the God of the same if it be in the center of the earth according to the common opinion of his Doctors But for to come vnto the matter thou which art a Theologian knowest that there be two manner of wayes to see and know god There is a manner to sée him before aâ—â— a manner to see him behinde To see him before that is to say in his beeing glory and maiestie it is not giuen vnto mortall man For he shall not be capable of such vision and knowledge And therefore hée aunswered vnto Moses who desired to see his glory that he should not sée it before but he would shew vnto him onely his hinder and backe parts I doe vnderstand and meane according to that which I haue learned of some Theologians that to see and know the backe partes of God that is to see and know him by his workes by his effects and in his creatures For sith that he is incomprehensible vnto man in his substaunce glory and maiestie the way and manner that he hath giuen vnto man for to know
which was there hid in a low place vnder the béere aunswered that he would Wherefore they dyd Baptise him in stéede of the dead Hillarius They had yet more appearance thē our Bishops Priests which baptised the bels Eusebius If those two arguments doe séeme vnto thée weake and feeble I will alldge vnto thée a stronger When S. Paul did write vnto the Philippians that vnto Iesus Christ is giuen a name aboue all names that in the name of Iesus should euery knée boow both of things in heauen things in earth things vnder the earth What vnderstādeth he by those which vnder the earth do boow their knées vnto Iesus Christ That cannot be vnderstanded of the diuels For they haue not accustomed to honour God nor the damned also For their office is rather to blaspheme him It must needes be then that they be in Purgatory which do boow the knée vnto Iesus Christ which do honour him or otherwise the words of S. Paul should not be true Theophilus If by boowing the knée S. Paul did vnderstande the true diuine seruice the true inuocation and the true honour which the elect doo owe vnto God ther should be some reason appearance in the argument But S. Paul by that manner of speaking meaneth none other thing by boowing the knée but that to Iesus Christ is giuen such domination that it is necessary that euery creature bée subiect vnto him and obeye him and acknowledge him to bee Iudge and Lorde the which the good and the elect dowillingly and with a good heart the wicked and reprebate in spite of their téeth But they are neuerthelesse campelled For they cannot resist the vertue and power of Iesus Christ which maketh his enimies his footstoole But the Apostle vseth such manner of speaking for to followe the stile of the Prophetes and to declere vnto vs that which the Lord hath sayde by I say I doe liue sayth the Lord Euery knee shal boowe vnto mee The which the Apostle expoundeth by other woords saying wee shall be all brought before the iudgement scate of Christ Afterwardes hee confirmeth that proposition by the very wordes of the Prophet declaring that all that commeth to one effect For bicause that the good and euill are compelled to render obedience vnto their Lordes and that they doe declare commonly their subiection and humilitie in boowing the knée and dooing reuerence before their Lorde the Scripture vseth such manner of speakinge for to signifie the obedience reuerence and subiection that euery creature must she we towardes god Although that the same may bée done diuerse wayes either by bowing the knées and without bewing the knées For the Angells and the soules can no better boowe their knees then the Diuels sith that all of thē haue no knées which cannot be but to bodies if we doe not vnderstande any otherwise those figures of speaking And therefore there is no inconuenience to vnderstande by those which do boow the knees vnder the earth the Diuels themselues with all the reprobate which shall all appeare before the iudgement seate of Christ and shall be cōpelled to acknowledge him to be their Iudge in great horrour and feare as they haue already shewed by experience in the time that Iesus Christ was yet in his mortall body passible before that he was risen againe For the wicked spirites were constrayned to obey him and to confesse him to be Christ and to pray vnto him Although that it was against their wills saying O Iesu thou sonne of God what haue wee to do with thee Art thou come hether to torment vs before the time be come We know that thou art the holy eue of God And they besought him saying If thou cast vs out suffer vs to goe our way into the herd of swine In the very same manner as they are compelled to entreate beseech Iesus Christ to confesse him so shall they be compelled to boow the knee vnto him And if they did that vnto him whilest that he was yet mortal passible what shal they do now sith that he sitteth immortal glorious at the right hand of God his father And if they doe beséech or pray to Iesus Christ may they not as well boow the knee vnto him In the sence the auncients haue vnderstāded Theophilactus expoūdeth it expresly of the diuels which shal be constrained to giue glory honour vnto Iesus Christ Eusebius If thou hast escaped that place I beleeue that thou shalt not escape so easily of the like written in the Apocalipse where it is sayd And all the creatures which are in heauen and on the earth vnder the earth in the sea and al that are in them heard I saying blessing he nor glory power be vnto him that sitteth vpon the seate and vnto the lambe for euermore Thou canst not héere say but that it is spoken of the true praise of the true honor which is due vnto God the which the diuels nor the reprobate cannot giue vnto him And yet neuertheles it is here said that there be creatures vnder the earth which do giue vnto him that praise which can be none other thē the soules of purgatory Theophilus You do lacke but the leg of a Fly for to build your arguments Doest thou not see that the holy Ghost vseth an enumeration by the which he witnesseth that all creatures in al places do praise their creator Iesus Christ the true lambe by whō all is restored But being not contēted to vse an vniuersal proposition he also woult by enumeratiō of creatures in perticuler conclude that in general bicause that that manner of speaking doth better expresse the thing doth amplifie better the glory of God declaring that there is not an element nor any place where God is not praised and magnified frō the highest part of heauen vnto the bottom of the earth from euery part of the world For as he writeth that the heauens declare the glory of God the firmament sheweth foorth his handy works Also there is not a creature whatsoeuer it bee neither in Heauen nor in the ayre nor in the water nor in the earth nor vnder the earth not so much as an Ant or Pismer neither a worme plant trée nor stone which preacheth not singeth prayseth magnifieth according to his nature in his manner Eusebius How can the mute and dumbe creatures speake being without reason and insensible which haue no sence reason vnderstandinge nor speach It must néedes be that we doe vnderstand that of men Theophilus How can the Angells the blessed soules speake and praise God which haue no mouth as we haue And how can the Firmament the Sunne the Moone and the starres declare and shew foorth the glory of God and declare his vertue and power for they haue no soule nor mouth as men haue Yet they haue neuerthelesse their mouth agréeing
to their nature for to render vnto God the honour which apperteyneth vnto him Euen so ought we to vnderstand of al other creatures which are all the liuely Images of God which declare vnto vs those meruailes and doe speake better hauing no mouth then the Images which haue mouthes and speake not and which crye not thorow their throate And therefore how many creatures may there be vnder the earth which do praise God in that manner And notwithstanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praise him in that sort as he is praised of the elect yet they are neuerthelesse constrained to praise glorifâ—e him against their wills and they cannot doe nor speake any thing which serueth not vnto his honour and glory Eusebius Sith that by thy expositions thou hast already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I haue against thee I will display at once that which remaineth behinde What wilt thou say vpon that other place taken from the same booke in which is spoken of the holy citie of the celestial Hierusalem after this maÌ„ner ther shal enter into it no vncleane thing To which agreeth that which is written in Esay This shal be called the holy way no vncleane person shall goe thorow it Theophilus What wilt thou that I should aunswere thée vppon the same There is none that will deny but that he must be purged from all his sinnes before he can come vnto the eternall lyfe For flesh and bloud cannot inherite the kingdome of god But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory but by the bloude of Iesus Christ by the which we are washed purified when thorow the word of god thorow faith our hearts are sprinkled Therefore sayd Iesus Christ vnto his disciples you are cleane bicause of the words which you haue heard We are purged when we obteine remission of our sinnes and that the Lorde forgetteth them not imputing them vnto vs and remembring them according to that which is written Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiuen whose sins are couered Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth no sinne Thomas I doe greatly feare Eusebius sith that thou art already come vnto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge For that is the ende of the new Testament and of all the canonicall Scripture Hillarius I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vs euen vnto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to sing his Requiescant in pace For I beleeue that he will dye héere and that hée shall passe no further Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement Purgatory and hell shal be all one But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldest haue proued in the Apocalips to be none other thing then those pondes of fire and brimstone in which the beast which hath engendered Purgatory is cast with hir false Prophets into the eternall bottomlesse pitte Theophilus What sayst thou Eusebius to the same Hast thou no more refuge Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether disconfited Eusebius I haue no more wherewith to reuenge me except I shew foorth that place of Saint Peter which witnesseth that the spirite of Iesus Christ preached vnto the spirites which were in prisen By the which prison I cannot vnderstand but Purgatory or the Lymbe At the leastwise it must bee that thou doest allowe the one or the other Theophilus That obiection commeth well to purpose for to aunswere also to the question of Thomas and to those which would haue a preaching of the Gospell in the other world Thomas I am very gladde that thou hast not forgotten it and that the occasion serueth so well Theophilus But before I will enter into it I will agayne admonish thee that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the estate of the dead besides that which the holy Scripture hath expressely reuealed vnto me Wherefore I do conclude that although it should be so that those estéeme it to be true yet neuertheles I shall not be of that opinion that any person should trust vnto it and that hée should leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde to seeke Iesus Christ sith that the Scripture doth not promise vnto vs cleerely any ether remedie nor any other preaching and reuelation for our saluation after this lyfe Therfore I would gladly allow in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory For notwithstanding that he did beleeue that in the same one might be purged from his sinnes yet neuerthelesse he sayth that it is most sure to gouerne himselfe so in this worlde that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other but to haue there his recourse and hope Thomas I am of thy opinion But expound vnto vs at the least the places that one may alleadge them to that purpose for to haue the intellygence thereoff Theophilus That which hath most shew is that which Eusebius hath touched in which is written that Christ hath once suffered for the sinnes the iust for the vniust for to bring vs to God and was killed as perteining to the flesh But was quickened in the spirite In which spirit he also went and preached vnto the spirites that were in prison which were in time passed disobedient when the long suffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of Noâ— c The other is by and by after where he saith that the wicked shall giue accompt vnto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should be iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before god in the spirite Behold two places after which many learned men haue much trauayled and haue expounded them many wayes Yet neuerthelesse it hath bene most commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented bicause that he speaketh of the spirits which were in prison or in the lower partes to whome Iesus Christ hath preached Those there haue vnderstanded by those spirits the soules of the auncient Fathers By the prison the Helles and the Lymbes in which they were deteined The others which are so affectioned after the Purgatory that there is not a place in all the Scripture which they endeauour not to wrest draw either wrongfully or ouerthwartly and haue taken that prison for Purgatory the spirits for the soules that are there But these héere haue lesse shew and doe put themselues more out of reason then the others Chiefely sith that there is none of the Auncients that I know not of those which haue beleeued the Purgatory that haue vnderstanded it after that manner and which haue alleadged it to that purpose Wherefore it is not needeful to aunswere them any further But for to come to the exposition of those places I will first aduertise you that there are
hope either to merit or not to merit and a place to do good or euill as in this mortal life and to be damned or saued Eusebius There is great difference For in this life man may merit or not merit of him selfe But after he is dead he can do no more for him selfe but others may do it for him And the merites of those that bee alyue doe serue him to saluation Theophilus And so by that meanes Iesus Christe shal be a Sauiour neither of the lyuing nor of the dead the merite of his death and passion shall saue neither the one nor the other but the lyuing shall saue themselues during their life and after their death others that shal be thē alyue shal saue them especially the Priestes and Moonks By that meanes we haue many sauiours and men should neuer be certaine nor sure of their saluation neither before their death nor afterwards whiche is a thing altogether contrarie to the doctrine of the scriptures Eusebius And if I would maintaine that those which are in hell can be somewhat deliuered from the pains theroff eyther by the prayers and good déedes of the liuing or bicause of the good deedes that they themselues haue done during their life that should be a strange thing vnto thée What wouldest thou aunswere to that Haue wee not the witnes of a great many histories and good doctours worthy to be beleeued which certefie vs how that Sainct Gregory deliuered Traianus the Emperour from the paines of hell who notwithstanding did put to death many of the Christians and namely Sainct Ignacius the discyple of S. Iohn the Euangelist It is in like manner written in the life of the fathers that Sainct Machaire deliuered a priest being a Panim who affirmed vnto him that he was damned And in the life of sainct Brandon we read that hee did sée Iudas which walked by the meadowes of whom he asked the cause wherefore he was not in hell who aunswered him bicause of the good deedes that he did in his life time he had therefore some solace and comfort Theophilus If Thou canst no better confirme my sentence nor better proue that your doctrine is altogether vncerteine variable inconstant and gamesayinge it selfe For hast thou not alreadie confessed vnto me that the priestes do not praye for the dampned bicause that there is no deliuerance from hell and from the fire of hell Consider I pray thée how that agreeth with those goodly fables with that which thou meanest now to speake off Eusebius If you had read diligently the bookes of the good auncient doctors and especially of Saint Thomas you might easely make all these places agrée For they do alledge foure opinions reasons for to satisfie suche doubts The first is that Traianus was raysed thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory and that he dath done penance in this life thorowe the which he meryted grace and pardon of his sinnes Wherefore he is dead in the grace of God and hath bene saued and this is the best allowed opinion of the doctors The second is that the soule of Traianus was not simplye deliuered from the paine and fault thereof but that his paine was suspended and delayed vntill the daye of iudgement and afterwardes shal be saued The thyrd opinion is that Gregory deliuered him not from the place of hell but from the paine The fourth which is also best allowed among all the other that the soule of Traianus was deliuered from the paines of hell and hath obtayned mercie thorow the prayers of Sainct Gregory the which thing was done not after the common law but after the disposition and dispensation of the wisdome and prouidence of God who did foresee that Sainct Gregory should pray for him Wherefore it hath not dampned it by or through diffinitiue sentence but by a sentence suspenciue The which thing hath bene a perticuler priuiledge For Sainct Hierome saith that the priuiledges are but for a fewe people and not for all For the priuiledges of a fewe are not lawes common to all And the things which go out of square from the common lawe ought not to bee drawen into a consequence Hillarius I thinke that that is the priuiledge whiche is written in the Aeneados of Virgill the which Cyble recited speaking to Aeneas after this manner Then prophet Cyble said O borne of bloud of heauenly kind Thou Troyan Duke the way that leads to hell is light to finde Both nights and dayes the doore of Limbo blacke doth open gape But backward vp to climbe and free to Skies est soones to scape Their woorkes their labour is few men whom equall loue did loue Our vertue pearcing all did to the starres aduaunce aboue Beholde the priuiledge of that good doctor whiche peraduenture Iupiter in whom Traianus did beléeue granted vnto him Theophilus I do greatly meruayle both of Thomas of Aquin and of other questionarie doctors whiche haue taken suche great paines for to couler and set foorth a fable It must be that they haue had very much leasure and that they were not muche occupied about other better affaires They would sooner haue giuen a more true and certeine solution if they had by and by answered that they receiued not such fables as some of their owne secte haue done namely our maister Iohn Maioris the Scotte the whiche I haue heretofore heard reade in the Colledge of Mountaigu Hee reiecteth without making anye doubt both the history of Sainct Machaire and also that of S. Brandon As touching that same of Traians although that he alledge the common solutions of other doctors yet neuerthelesse he first doth aunswer that he knoweth not from whence that history had his first beginning the which hath no certaine author not withstanding that some doe attribute it vnto Iohn Damascenus But how shoulde hee haue written it sith that according to their owne witnesses and chronicles he raigned long time before that saint Gregory lyued and was dead before that Sainct Gregory was borne For their chronicles do witnes that Damascenus florished in the years of our Lord 440. And that he was very familier with the Emperour Theodosius The which yet neuerthelesse I beléeue not For by that account he had lyued in the time of Sainct Ambrose neuerthelesse there is great differēce betweene his bookes and these of Sainct Ambrose For these of Sainct Ambrose are a great deale purer keepe a great deale better the puritie of that aunciēt church But peraduenture they meane the young Theodoseus which rayned after Honorius Although that it be so by their owne Chronicles he was before the time of Gregory about 152. yeares For they do write that Gregory reigned in the yeare 592. Hillarius It must néeds be then that either the Chronicles are false or the witnes of those the do make Damascenus the author of that fable Except peraduenture they will say that thorow the spirite of prophecie he hath
foreshewed that deliuerance which Gregory ought to doe touching the soule of Traianus Theophilus I knowe not what their prophecies are but I neuer in all my lyfe did sée nor heare a thing wherin was lesse reason assurance incerteinly then in that papisticall doctrine For it consisteth but in mane opinions But how do those fables agrée with that that they themselues alledge of Sainct Augustine who by their owne witnesses should say If I did know that my Father were in hell I would pray no more for him then for the diuell Wherefore then haue S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampned And when the Priestes do pray vnto Iesus Christ that he deliuer the soules least that hel should deuoure them and that they should not fall into the darke and obscure places in what place doe they vnderstande that the soules for whom they make that request ought to bee Sith that they make request that hell do not deuour them they do then vnderstand and meane that they are not in hell But when they admoreouer that they fall not into the darke and tenebrous places they declare therby that they ought to be in a place from which they may not fall Now what is that place Is it Paradise Eusebius No verely For those that are there are alreadye all assured that they shall neuer fall Theophilus No except you are of that opinion that the soules may yet sinne in Paradise as the Angelles and Adam in the terrestriall Paradise and that God did throwe them headlonge into hell as the wicked Angelles or that he dyd driue them out of Paradise as Adam But I beléeue thou art not of that opinion friende Eusebius for thou shouldest speake against all the good auncient Doctours and the doctrine of the catholike Church who doe preferre the worke of mannes redemption to the same of his creation in that that man hath bene so created of God that he could sinne But he hath after such sort redéemed it that his elect can neuer perish nor sinne after they be in Paradise Eusebius It is very true Theophilus In what place then are those soules Thou wylt not saye that they are in the Limbe For according to your owne doctrine that same of the fathers is emptie and as touching the other there goeth none thether but the little children that bée borne dead for whom you doe no more praye then for the dampned For you hope no more that they can come out from thence 〈◊〉 more thē tho dampned can come from hel Wherefore there resteth no more but Purgatory Nowe if those soules are in Purgatorye it muste bée that they haue some solace and some lyght as in Paradise or otherwise wherefore doe they praye that those soules doe not fall into the obscure and darke places if they be there already We will yet come againe vnto my first matter and thou shalt be compelled to confesse that Paradise and Purgatory is all one thing Or that you doe praye for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise and for those which are at rest or at the leastwise that the soules which are already tormented in Purgatory maye yet fall more déeper into hell y darke places And so by that reason they are yet in daunger of dampnation which is contrarye to your own doctrine Hillarius I am greatly estonished friēd Theophilus what reason you can finde out of all reason and what certeintie you search besides the woord of God which is onely certayne What foundation shall you finde in dreames For all that that they saye and do touching the dead and all their doctrine what other thing is it but dreames and lyinges which haue neither spiryte nor iudgement Is not that a Theology altogether come of the Panims for of all those thinges haue they learned any one sillable of Iesus Christ Wherfore I would sith that they will not followe but their owne fantasie the opinions of men and of the Idolaters and that they haue no regarde of the holy Scriptures that they would not at the leastwise onely followe the euyll but also the good that they haue taught Plato that great and worthy Philosopher hath set foorth thrée kindes of righteousnesse The one towardes God an other towardes men and the thirde towards the dead But these heere doo neither regard God nor men the be aliue but haue conuerted all their care vpon the dead not for the loue of them but for the loue of themselues Wherefore you muste not thincke that they haue done this for any zeale of righteousnesse for to render vnto them their duetie Theophilus I desire gladlye that they and all the Christians woulde acquite them in suche sorte that one may say that whiche the Scripture witnesseth of Ruth and of Booz and to gyue vnto them such prayse For it wytnesseth that they haue shewed mercy on the dead But how was it in bestowing their goodes to bury them pompeously and making a greate many of Ceremonyes about their buryall They haue not learned to doe so by the worde of god For as Sainct Augustine sayth also it is written in the decrées themselues and in the Maister of the sentences That all these things to wit the trauaile and labour that they bestowe vpon the funerals the beautifying of their buryall the pompe of the exequics and buryals are more to comfort those that be aliue then for to ayde the dead If the precious and costly buryall profiteth any thing the wicked the vile and contemptible buryall shall hurt the good or if he doe remayne vnburyed That rich man of whom Iesus Christ speaketh off had a great number of seruants and courtisans clothed in purple and sumptuous apparaile who made for him moste excellent funerals and buryed hym very costly to al mens sight But the Ministering of the Angells made a greate deale more noble before the face of the Lorde that of the poore begger whome they carried not to bée buryed But carryed it into Abrahams bosome Beholde the wordes of S. Augustine who declareth vnto vs that we must not dispise the dead bodyes and denie vnto them their buryall for to testifie and witnesse the hope that wée haue of the resurrection and that we should estéeme them no lesse then a ring or a badge which they haue left vnto vs the which we would gladly hide and kepe for the loue of them Also we ought not to thincke that the faythfull can be in nothing of lesse strength and to receiue any hurte before God when they abide vnburyed as it oftentimes chauused as it is written The dead bodyes of thy seruaunts haue they giuen vnto the soules of the Aire to be deuoured and the flesh of thy Saincts vnto the beastes of the land Their bloude haue they shed lyke water on euerye side of Hierusalem and there was no man to bury them But yet neuerthelesse although that those things séeme to be
faire and a goodly péece of worke But wée must bring it to the touchstone the which shall not be after our owne iudgement but according to the same of GOD who is the iudge of vs and of our workes Therefore saith he that the day shall declare it and that the fire shall trye what euerye mannes worke shall bée He calleth the day of the Lord all tymes in which hée manifesâ—eth his presence vnto men by any manner of wayes the which he doth chiefely by the manifestation of his truth and reuelation of his Gospell By the fire although that in the Scripture it be many times taken for the temptacions and tribulations yet neuertheles it agréeth best héere to the sence meaning of the Apostle to take the fire for the towchstone which procéedeth of the holy Ghost which is the true fire which consumeth all doctrine inuented by men the which cannot abyde the spirituall towchstone but vanisheth away assoone as one proueth the spirites whether they be of God or not Asmuch happeneth of all the workes procéeding of such doctrine the which cannot beare the iudgement of god But to the contrary it happeneth to the truth as to the faith the which euen as the golde becommeth more fairer and sheweth it selfe more pure when it is tryed and examined in that furnayce and approcheth néerer of that spirituall iudgement And therefore when the word of the Lorde is manifest by the vertue of the holy Ghost then all things are reuealed We shall know what worke we haue made whether it hath any â—ault in it or not and whether we haue lost our time or whether we be worthy of a reward If we haue not buylded a matter agréeing to the foundation when the truth the iudgement of the spirit of god presseth our conscience or that the temptations also and the afflictions doe compasse vs rounde about wée are compelled to condempne our worke and we shall proue that that which we estéeme to be of some waight and importaunce is nothing at all and that in which we put our hope and trust cannot serue vs neither confirme nor assure our consciences Eusebius But how are we saued by the fire if our workes are lost and by the same consumed Theophilus The Apostle declareth it sufficiently himself if we do marke of what people he speaketh He speaketh not of Hereticks Apostates seducers and false Prophets which teach false doctrine contrary to the faith and which are seperated from Iesus Christ and from his body which is the Church by their infidelytie and peruersitie But he speaketh of the Masons and buylders of the Churche that is to say of Euangelycall Pastors and Ministers which haue not forsaken the foundation nor y head which is Iesus Christ that is to say which haue not tourned themselues from the principall poynts and articles of the Christian religion and from the saith in Iesus Christ and from things necessary to saluation But haue mingled some of their inuentions and traditions amongst the doctrine of the Gospell and haue fayled in some lyttle and small things which are not very daungerous Those then to whom such things shall happen shall receyue domage and losse For their worâ—e and that which they haue added to it of theirs shall perish and shall haue no more profite then if they were altogether dispossessed of them But they shal haue rather shame and confusion for them Yet neuerthelesse they shall be saued but as by the fire not their fault their errors and ignoraunce and their buildings buylded without the word of God may be agréeaâ—le to God But bicause of the foundation which they haue holden and kept and of the head of which they remayne members and of the faith which abideth in them shall be purged and delyuered from error and ignoraunce by that fire of the holy Ghost with which they shall bée illuminated But yet neuerthelesse héerein men will liken him vnto a foolish buylder which shall buyld vpon a good and sure foundation of stone and a rocke a house or buylding of wood â—â—ye chasse and stubble which thinke to haue made a goodly péece of worke and knowes not his fault vntill that he séeth that the fire bath taken and consumed it altogether Then he knoweth by experience that be hath lost his time and the cost and expences that he hath bestowed about it and that be is forced to beginne his buylding a new â—â— though he had neuer put his hand vnto it sauing that thâ— shame and the losse abideth with him We call our selues all Christians and doe confesse that there is but one foundation and one head Iesus Christ But although that in that behalfe we doe all agrée yet neuertheles when they come to buylde vpon that foundation all shall not be found good Masons For many will be Masters before they haue bene good schollers and apprentices and will not follow the rule and the instruction of the master Masons well expert and cunning in their mistery and occupation but thincking to make some fairer thing doe buylde after their owne fantasie They doe preach or heare the Gospell and will serue god after their affection and as they thinke good And thincking to make some faire péece of worke they marre it altogether But they doe not know it by and by vntill such time as the fire of the Gospell and of the spirite of God which is the true Iudge and the truth reuealed vnto men destroyeth all the goodly outwarde appearaunce and maketh it to be séene such as it is and not such as it appeareth outwarde As wée sée by experience in the Moonkish sectes and in many other ceremonyes superstitions Idolatryes and workes inuented of menne in which wee doe glorye and boaste our selues and thinke that we haue done mough for to merite foure Paradises and for to make God to be in our debte But when the Gospell is purely preached which beateth down all error all vayne supersticion and mans trust then we shall know our fault and be ashamed of that of which we thinke to be much estéemed Or when God sendeth vnto vs some great affliction temptation and aduersitie that his iudgement presseth vs that he examineth and prourth our woorkes as the fire proueth and tryeth the golde in the furnayce Then we shall know our hypocrisie folly vanitie and false religion the which wée doe not thinke but to be pure godlynesse and righteousnesse And as the holy Apostle esteeming as dongue all that which before wée estéemed as golde But forasmuch as wée haue not renounced and forsaken Iesus Christ nor the fayth which wée haue in him wee are not altogether lost thorow the fault that we haue committed but it happened vnto vs euen so as vnto him which hath escaped the fire But he hath yet neuertholesse lost his house and all that which was in it bicause that it was not buylded with good stuffe and could saue but his body all naked
his lyfe Wherfore he must buyld it altogether new dost thou not thinke Eusebius that this exposition agréeth better to the sence and meaning of the Apostle then that of your Doctors which would tourne and wrest it to their sence and vnderstanding against the same of the spirite of God and of Saint Paul and of the auncient Doctors which haue neuer expounded it of the fire of Purgatory but almost al of them to the sence as I haue expounded it chiefly Saint Ambrose I cannot be too much abashed of the manner of doing of those which will vphold mannes traditions When we will propone any thing in the Church of Iesus Christ for a doctrine of saluation and an article of faith we ought first of all dilygently to examine whether that which we would put foorth hath any certeine and sure foundation in the word of god If we find that it is commaunded of God and comprised in the holy scriptures we may and ought boldely to propounde and affirme it On the contrary if the Scripture doth make no mention of it it is not lawfull onely to open the mouth for to speake one word and for to propounde for certeine a thing vncerteine For cursed is the man which putteth foorth for a sure doctrine a thing of which he himselfe is not certein and of which he cannot say with the Prophet and the holy Apostle I haue beléeued it and therefore I spake it For wée ought to beware and kéepe our selues as from death to teach vnto others to beléeue and to do that which we our selues beléeue not and of which we are not certeine Now it is impossible to be assured and certeine of such things then by the word of god the which we ought to follow in all things But I sée cleane contrary in those which haue taught mens traditions in stéede of the worde of god For in stéede to take counsayle of it before they doe institute any thing they haue first propounded and perswaded the people that which coÌ„meth in their out béeing much aduised whether God hath commaunded or forbidden it It sufficeth them so that they haue some shew and appearaunce And when they perceiue that one will examine their Doctrines by the rule of the word of God then fearing to be ouercome and condempned they séeke if they can finde any thing in the Scripture for to proue their intent the which they ought to haue done before they put tho thing foorth But sithence that they haue once ordeined and published it and haue perceiued and felt the profit it grieueth them sore to recant and gainesay it And therefore they doe all their endeuours for to finde in the Scripture some coulour for to beautifie and shew foorth their worke And there is nothing so that it hath any appearaunce at all but that they drawe it violently depraue and marre it for to make it serue to their purpose Hillarius They doe as those which doe fight together which take and catch all that commeth to their hands for to defende them with bée it swoorde launce staffe forke pole fire brande stones dunge myre dust asshes and all that which they can catch or come by without regarding any thing but to defende themselues and hurt their enimie For that is all one vnto them so that they escape â— cary away the victory These Theologians doe make me to remember the olde pronerbe of the rule Lesbia the which was of Lead Wherefore the Masons of Lesbia boowed it as they would And in stéede that they ought to measure and compasse their worke by the same and the stones which they hewed and the wals which they builded and to correct and amende them if they were not right wel compassed they did cleane contrary For they did bend make crooked their rule for to make it to agrée with their worke where they ought to make the worke to agrée to the same And so it obeyed them in all thinges And whereas they should correct and amend their worke by the rule they corrected and amended the rule by their woorke Euen so are many of the lawes the which one maketh them to agrée to the manners whereas by them they ought to be corrected not the lawes by maÌ„s affections Theophilus There is not a thing the which at this daye they doe more abuse in that sort then the holy Scriptures There is not a rule more firme more surer and certeine and yet neuerthelesse the false Doctors to all purposes dooe tourne and wrest it to their sence and vnderstandinge as wée doe sée by experience in that matter of Purgatorye For sithence that once that errour was brought into the Church of God as soone as was founde in the holy Scripture one woorde that made mencion of fire they haue by and by drawen and applyed it to their purpose and haue taken it for a certeine proofe of Purgatorye without hauing regarde that the fire in the same is taken more then in a thousand places as well in the olde as newe Testament in so many diuerse significations chiefely in the psalmes Esay Ieremy and in the other Prophetical and Apostolical Scriptures of which it is not now néede to bring foorth the examples Hillarius Thou hast hearde a sufficient declaratiâ—n of that place of which thou oughtest to content thy selfe Eusebius and to kéepe thy selfe from following the example of your Doctors which doe drawe and wreast the holy Scriptures for to make them singe what it pleaseth them more cruelly then â— Tyrant would draw and handle a malefactor on the racke and on the gallowes Eusebius They doe say the lyke of you Hillarius But it is eaâ—â—ly to iudge vnto whome that office agréeth best Eusebius And howe vnderstandest thou this place of Saint Mathew where hée sayth Agrée with thine aduersary quickly whilest thou art in the waye with him least thâ— nouersary deliuer thée to the Iudge the Iudge deliuer thee to the Minister then thou be cast in prison Verely I saye vnto thée thou shalt not come out thence til thou haue payde the vttermost farthing What other prison may wée vnderstande héere but the same of Purgatory For from that same of hell there is neuer no hope to come foorth But sith that it is heere spoken of the comming foorth after they haue wholy and fully satisfyed we cannot doubt but that the same prison is Purgatorye in which the soules are deteined and kepte in paines vntill they haue fully satisfied for all their sinnes Theophilus Sith that thou expoundest the prison in such sorte I demaund of thée who is the Iudge of whom is héere made menâ—ion off Eusebius It is God. Theophilus And who is the aduerse partie Eusebius The Diuell Theophilus And who is the Sargent or Minister Eusebius The Angell Theophilus Thou wilt then say that the Angells doo conduct and lead the soules into Purgatorye to the place of paines and â—orments Eusebius Who then the Diuels