Tridentine councell are the doctrine of the Church of Rome and if you will in stead of Prophets to teach your significant ceremonies the cap surplice crosse typpet which are neyther dark nor dumb but apt to stir vp the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God by some notable signification Here is drosse for silver and for the finest wheat chasse Lastly your Prophets which administer that part of Christs prophecy or of the scriptures which may be taught and practised amōgst you haue neyther the true office of ministery which Christ hath prescribed nor a lawfull calling to that they have as hath been in part noted from Ephe. 4. and is els where clearly evinced Now Christs preistly office you do corrupt and prophane vnsufferably whether we respect the persons or things whereof you make him a mediator Are those Atheists and vngodly persons wherewith you cōfesse in the beginning of your book your Church is full and which if you should deny heaven and earth would witnes against you are they I say their soules and bodyes those lively holy and acceptable sacrifices and offerings sanctified by the holy Ghost Are those devised printed and stinted collects read out of your humane service-book the spirituall sacrifices of prayer and thanks-giving which the spirit of God teacheth the sonnes of God to offer the fruits and calves of the lipps which confesse his name Is that constreyned payment of a weekly or monethly rate and assesment for the poore more fitly called a malevolence for the ill will it is payd with then a benevolence that gratious cheerfull care for the saynts that freewill offering of love and mercy that sweet smelling odour that acceptable and well pleasing sacrifice vnto God Are these I say those sacrifices for which Iesus Christ the eternall high preist appeareth for ever before his father in heaven that he might offer them vnto him in the golden censure perfumed with the odours of his own righteousnes or are they to be sanctified by the golden altar of his merits standing before the throne of God Rev. 8. 3. 4. Math. 23. 19. A lesse indignity sure it was to lay vpon the materiall Altar in the tabernacle or temple doggs swine vultures and all vncleane beasts and byrds with their durt and dung then thus to lay vpon this heavenly altar those unclean beasts and byrds whereof Babylon is an habitation and cage And for Christs kingly office who is able to set down the indignities outrages offered in your Church to the scepter therof For first where Christ reigneth as the King in Syon his holy mountayn ruling over his servants and subjects onely as the King of saints vnder his father you have gathered him a kingdom crowned him the King thereof contrary to his expresse will of known traytours and rank rebels vnto his crown and dignity even of such as do visibly and apparantly fight for Satan and his kingdom the kingdom of darknes hating deriding and persecuting to the vtmost of their power all such as desire to please and serve Christ in any sincerity Of such and none other doth the body of your Church consist for the greatest part as all amongst you that feare God will testify with me 2. Where Christ ruleth over his subjects by the scepter of his holy word which is a scepter of righteousnes in the place of it the vngodly canons and constitutions of Popes and Prelates must and do bear sway Such subjects such lawes And say not Mr B. as you do in answer to Mr Ainsworth pag. 259. that you acknowledge no other law-giver over your consciences in matters of saith and obedience between Christ and you save him alone For what doth your Church representative but bind conscience in binding men to subscribe to the Hierarchy service-book and ceremonies spont◠et exanimo in pressing men to the vse of things reputed indifferent absolutely and whether they offend or offend not in tying men to a certayn form of prayer thanksgiving excommunicating men for the refusall and omission of these and the like observances of their lawes And vvhat do you but loose and vnbind the conscience in tolerating yea approving yea making and ordeyning vnpreaching Ministers and in binding the people vnder both civil and ecclesiasticall penalties to their ministrations in their own parishes and from others And what do you els in your dispensations for pluralities non-Recidency and the like Are not these matters of conscience with you Mr B. wherein your lawes and law-makers bynde and loose as they list All the lawes and ordinances for the ministery and government of the Iewish Church were matters of faith and obedience between God and the Church bynding the consciences of the people and is the new testament lesse perfect then the old and the lawes and ordinances for the administration of it lesse excellent and of a baser foundation then the former It matters not what your words are since it appeares by your deeds that you vsurp the throne of Christ in appointing officers and making lawes for the government and administration of his kingdome the Church and those many of them to the abolishing of his herein rather holding Christ as a captive then honouring him as a King 3. Where Christ hath given to his Church liberty power and commaundement every one of them severally and all of them joyntly to reprove and reform disorders and whatsoever is found whether person or thing faulty and disagreing vnto his word alasse this liberty is enthralled this power lost this commaundement made of no force The Prelates haue seazed all these royalties into their hands as though they alone were made partakers of Christs kingly annoynting were as Kings to rule in his Church Here is a King in a great measure without subjects without lawes without officers without power But here I must needs observe a few things about two answers given by Mr B. in his 2. book to two of Mr Ainsworths obiections about the matter in hand To the former being about the officers of Christ in the Church he answereth that they have Christs officers appointed to govern the civil Magistrate the Kings Maiesty the ruling Elder next vnder Christ c. and the ecclesiasticall governours vnder him the Bishops who are also Pastours and Doctours But you should have considered Mr Bern. that the question is not about civill but ecclesiasticall governours The King in deed is to govern in causes ecclesiasticall but civilly not ecclesiastically vsing the civil sword not the spirituall for the punishing of offendours And if the King be a Church officer then he is first a King of the Church ◠to be called to his office and so deposed from it by the Church or at least by other ecclesiasticall persons by whom alone you will have Church officers made And lastly if the King be such a ruling Elder as the scriptures speak
men It is an outward pledge or symbole of the coÌ„munion which the faithful haue with Christ for of that the Apostle speaketh 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17. directly and so by coÌ„sequence one with another bycause it vnites Christ the head with his own members one of them with another doth it therefore vnite Christ or his true members with the true apparant visible lims of the Divil which all vngodly men and women are This is the force of Mr Br. arguments Bycause the L. supper is of this or that vse unto them to whoÌ„ by the word of God it apperteyns therefore it hath or must be judged to haue the same vse amongst them which are apparant vsurpers of it and to whom by the word of God it apperteyns not There is nothing more coÌ„mon in both his books then this kind of deceiptfull arguing Here is yet an Arg of coÌ„parisoÌ„ to be taken knowledg coÌ„sidred of the rather because the author both wills the reader to note it in the margent and repeats it himself over over in the text The Argument is that aâ— continual siâ—nes corruptions of the hartâ— of the elect do not make theÌ„ false Christians before God or no true invisible meÌ„bers of Christ so neyther do outward offences or corruptions mâ—k open professors of the saith false Christians before men or no true visible members of Christ. True no more due proportion observed namely thaâ— those outward offences do not reign in the mortall bodyes of men â—â— the inward corruptions do not reign in the hearts of the elect But let the reader here remember the subiect of the quaestion which is men of lewd conversation and deserving to be excommunicated and then the noting of Mr B. Arg wil be like Davidâ— noting the Amalâ—kites tydings of the death of Sâ—ul and Ionathan to the destruction of him that brought them For by the same rule of proportion I argue thus As they in whose hearts sinns and corruptions reign inwardly are no true Christians before God nor actuall members of Christ invisibly so they in whose lives and conversations sinnes and corruptions reign outwardly are no true Christians before men nor members of Christ visibly And here comes to my mind an other argument much what like this in Mr B. 2. book where he will have a mixt company of godly and wicked persons to be called holy or a company of saynts as well as a person holy in whom there is a mixture of the spirit and flesh But the difference is playn In this mixt body of godly wicked sin reigns in some of the members but in no part of body or faculty of soul of a person in whom the spirit is though never so much flesh be mingled with it doth sinne reign He might as well say the whole Church so mixt shal be saved for the whol man shal be saved by faith in Christ notwithstanding all mixture in him Now the conclusion Mr B. makes that their congregations professe Christ as is before sayd that God hath given them his holy word and sacraments moved the harts of all of them outwardly to receive both the one and the other is vnproved and vntrue For first there is no one congregation in the Land whose particular members made that holy profession in any measure by according to which the Apostles did constitute and vnite visible congregations Secondly I deny that the Lord hath given his sacraments to any congregation in the Land there are very many in the best ordered parishes which take them without the Lords gift as being wicked vsurpers of them vnto which by the revealed will of God they have no right But here I must needs discover Mr Bernards haunt and the turning by which in his second book he vsually declines both Mr Ainsworths Mr Smyths Arguments of this nature and that is by telling them that all are not wicked amongst them that some or many haue the true knowledge of Gods word and that the fear of God possesseth the hearts of many as in this place that God hath moved the hearts of many of the people effectually and the like and that therefore we do them wrong in condemning all for some and in denying the good their right for others default To this I answer first that those that can be truely judged to fear God are thin strewed in the best places and not many in comparison of the rest as is pretended but a very small handfull and besides it is but casuall and accidentall to the congregation and nothing to the constitution of it that there is one man truely fearing God in it The parish must be a true vivisible constituted Church as well one as another and so receive the sacraments together whether the Lord have had any such work as is here spoken of in the hearts of any or no. And 2. it must be considered I pray the teader well to observe it that the quaestion here betwixt Mr B. and me and so ordinarily betwixt him and them is about the congregation which consists of all the members ioyntly and not about some particulars coÌ„sidered severally from the rest of whom the congregation consists not I am verily perswaded there are in many congregations many that truely feare God and the Lord encrease their number and graces and if they were separated from the rest into visible communion I should not doubt to account them such coÌ„gregations as vnto which God had given his sacraments but take them as they are even one with the rest in one ioynt communion as members of one body making all together one Church congregation so joyned at the first and so still remayning I deny that this Church or congregation is the Lords people in covenaunt with him or that he hath given vnto it his sacraments yea or that those which truely fear God are accepted of him in their persons have in that communion the right and lawfull vse of them in many particulars They cannot take them for pawnes and pledges of Gods love and the forgivenes of sinns to that congregatioÌ„ wherewith they ioyn in the vse of them nor as testimonies of true spirituall love amongst the persons communicating in them nor as notes badges of dâ—stinction of that assembly from all profane vnhallowed assemblies in the world And yet are all these common ends and vses of the sacrament as it is a communion or coÌ„mon vnion of the members with the head and one with another mutually Since therefore your congregations or parish assemblies are alwayes have been so constituted as that neyther the greatest part of them being prophane have any interest in the sacraments or can have any right vse of them in their persons nor yet the rest in their communion it must needs follow except the Lord have given his sacraments to them which can haue no right vse of them and to whom they apperteyn not that the Lord
also The man which hath receaved the spirit is spirituall and not the soule onely So externall things may be spirituall are in their relatoÌ„ vse and you erre if you think otherwise The word sacraments other ordinaÌ„ces of the Church are spiritual yea all the sacrifices of the faithfull are spirituall more specially as the Lord Iesus is the Preist both of the soul body hath payed a price for both so is he also the King both of soule body and swayes the scepter of his kingdome not onely internally by his spirit in the soule but externally and visibly also by this word in the outward man guyding the same by his lawfull officers depuâ—ed there vnto But what is the cause why Mr B. should move this question Is it not for that himselfe and his Church not having Christ to rule over them by his lawes but other kings and Lords by theyr canoÌ„s he would insinuate that Christ exerciseth none external regiment over his Church nor is the King over the bodyes of his subiects at all thus rather labouring to abolish that part of Christs KingdoÌ„ then to submit to it But as our principall care at all times must be to have the throne of our L. Iesus erected in our harts that he may reigne there so that we may give him his owne entyre that which he hath so dearly bought we must rank our bodyes also vnder the regiment he hath established for the well ordering preservation of his kingdom forever both in soule body not like Nichodemites or Familists presume to submit the outward man we care not to whome or what Our fourth supposed error is That all not in theyr way are without and they do apply against vs 1 Cor. 5. 12. Ephe. 2 12. And since the way is one as Christ is one and we assured that our way is that way of Christ we doubt not to affirme that all not in our way are without in the present respect provided alwayes that we do iudge that other Churches may be and are in our way and we in theirs and both they and we in Christs though there be betwixt them vs sundry differences both in iudgment and practise And that we doe fitly apply against you the scriptures above named I do thus manifest The Apostle 1 Cor. 5. reproves the Church for tolerating amongst them the incestuous person vncensured charging them to vse the power of the Lord Iesus given vnto them for that purpose and that as vpon him for the present so vpon other notorious offenders at other times Now least they should mistake his meaning he shewes how far this his advertisement extends viz to such offenders as were in the Church and to all and onely them And this limitation of the power of Christ to the proper obiect he sets downe in this 12. verse affirmatively to them that are within and negatively to them that are without From this place then I do thus reason They that are within are subiect to the power of excoÌ„munication by the Church gathered together in the name of Christ they without not But you Mr B. and so of the rest are not subiect to the judgement of the Church thus gathered together but to the Archbishop of York Who is not the Church of Workxsop Therefore you are not within but without in the Apostles meaning The second place we apply against you is Ephe. 2. 12. whence I reason thus They that are aliants and straungers from the common wealth of Israel are without But such are you and your whole parrish Ergo. The first Proposition is the Apostles words for to be without Christ as there he speakes and to be a stranger from the coÌ„mon wealth of Israel is all one The second Proposition is thus confirmed The coÌ„mon wealth of Israel was a religious policy consisting of a peculiar people of whom every one was by the word of God separated into the covenant of his mercy Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. Neh. 10. 1. 28. 29. But to affirme that every person in the Church of England or in any parish Church is admitted by the Lord into the new covenant or testament is both against the expresse word of God Heb. 8. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. and his owne conscience I am perswaded that affirmed it And thus so long as you keep your standing you must be content to stand without in the meaning of the Apostle in the places forenamed neither can you wrythe in your self or corrupt these places to get in by them though you give sundry attempts as 1. These places are ment of such as never made so much as an outward profession of Christ at all What better are men for professing God in word when in deed they deny him They are never a whit the lesse but the more abhominable Tit. 1. 16. And might not any Papist or other heretik make this exception For they make a kind of profession of Christ Iesus And when you Mr B. in your pulpit thunder the iudgments of God out of the Prophets and Apostles against Atheists Papists blasphemers proud and cruell persequuters might not a man serve you as you do us and tel you that the most of the threatnings you denounce were directed against the Heathen which did not so much as make an outward profession of Christ. Lastly the H. Ghost terming Antichristianisme Babylon Sodom Egypt spiritually teacheth vs to apply against it spiritually what the Prophets have civily spoken against them 2. They cannot prove vs without by the scripture expounding this phrase without by the scriptures laying a side the forgeryes of theyr own braynes The cause is playn that whosoever iâ— not a free deniâ—en of the coÌ„mon wealth of Israell and vnder the iudgment of the Church is without and there must stand by Gods appoyntment And that this is your estate is as playne And both these we have proved by the scriptures without forgeryes of our owne brayne all the brayns you have will fynd no forgeryes in our proofes 3 God almighty hath witnessed that we are his people 1 By giving vs his word Psal. 14. 7. 19. 20. and sacraments This scripture proves that God gave his word to Iaakob statutes to Israel but prove your selves the Israel of God shew vs from the word of God the charter of your corporatioÌ„ that your Nationall Provintiall Diocesan and Parochial Churches are that new Ierusalem and your inhabitants the right Citzens of that City enfranchised with her heavenly libertyes and answer the proofs brought to the contrary otherwise though you be never so shameles a begger of the question in hand we may not graunt it you 2 By Gods effectuall working by his word Ier. 23. 22. therefore heard â—â— the voyce of the sonne of God Ioh. 5. 25. and the words of eternal life God forbid I should deny eyther the truthes of Christ you have a
describing the Church to be a company of faithfull people yet do the divine scriptures speak otherwise which I will clearly manifest and therein also free the Parable Math. 13. which you bring in for proofes from that violence which you and others offer them forcing Christ clean against his will to plead for Antichrist And with the scriptures I do affirme against you that the Church of Christ is no such mingled meslyne or monstrous compound but a body simple vniform one proportionable in every mēber vnto the head informed by one spirit and called in one hope Ephe. 4. 4. And for wicked and vngodly persons so farr are they from being the true naturall members whereof the body consisteth as the whol of the parts as they serve indeed for no other purpose then to infect and corrupt the rest and if redresse be not had in time to eat out the very hart of the whole But before I come to the point in controversy I will lay down two cautions for the preventing of errour in the simple of cavelling in such as desire to contend First it must be considered that where the quaestion is about the visible or externall Church which is by men discernable and not of that Church which is internall and invisible which onely the Lord knoweth we speak here of visible and externall holynes onely whereof men may judge and not of that which is within and hid from mans ey For we doubt not but the purest Ch vpō earth may consist of good and bad in Gods ey of such as are truely faythfull and sanctifyed of such as have onely for a tyme put on the outside and vizard of sanctity which the Lord will in due tyme pluck of though in the mean while mans dim sight cannot pearce through it 2. I desire it may be remēbred that the question betwixt Mr B. and me is about the true and naturall members whereof the Ch is orderly gathered and planted and not about the degenerate decayed estate of the Church members for we know that naturall children may become rebellious the faithful city an harlot the silver drosse and the wyne corrupt with water the noble vine so planted whose plants were all naturall may degenerate into the plantes of a strange vine But as it were fond Phylosophy in the description of wives and children and their true naturall properties to make rebellion a property of a child because many children prove rebels against their parents or to make whoredome a property of a wife because many wives prove vnfaithful that way so is it as prophane divinity to make vngodly persons the true matter of the Church their profanenes a true property of the same because many seeming saynts at the first do so creep in and do afterwards discover their owne shame are oft times through want of zeal too long tolerated in the Church to the dishonour of God prejudice of the gospel And so I come to manifest by an induction of particulars that all the visible Churches gathered and planted by the Lords line level frō the beginning of the world were in their collection cōstitution simple vniform and vnmixt consisting of good alone in the respect in hand And first the Lord created a Church of Angels in heaven which wer all good holy without mixture til some by sin fell frō their first and originall estate so leaving their own habitation were cast down to hel After that God created a Church of mankind in Paradise consisting of two persons both holy good And thus the Churches of creation were gathered of angels and men without mixture Now if any man object that in these instances I fetch my beginnings too farr of my answer is that the Lord had hath the same ends and respects in the creating restoring of his Ch which are his own glory their happines And if it were the will of the Lord that persons notoriously wicked should be admitted into the Ch then should he ditectly crosse himself his own ends should receive into the visible covenāt of grace such as wer out of the visible estate of grace should plant such in his Church for the glory of his name as served for none other vse then to cause his name to be blasphemed Hereupon I frame an Argument thus That order for the gathering of Ch which directly crosses the mayne ende◠for which the Lord would have his Church gathered is not of God But the order for which Mr B. pleads which is that apparantly prophane persons may with the godly be gathered into the visible Church crosses the Lords ends of gathering Churches and therefore is not of God The former proposition is without controversie the latter is thus manifested The mayne ends for which the Lord gathereth and preserveth his Church vpon earth are that he might have a peculiar people separated vnto himselfe from all other peoples to call vpon his name in faith and to glorify him theyr heavenly father in their holy conversation whom he also might glorify in the end of their fayth the salvation of theyr soules But for wicked vngodly persons in the Church as they serve no no way for these ends but the cōtrary causing Gods name to be blasphemed and his wrath to come vpon their disobedience so to gather or admit them into the Church is vtterly to frustrate Gods ends and to gather for Satan rather then for God To proceed In the restoring of mankind planting the first Ch in the covenant of grace established in the seed of the woman there were onely saynts without any such mixture as Mr B. makes Now as all true churches from the begining to the end of the world are one in nature and essentiall constitution and the first the rule of the rest so the first being gathered of good matter not bad declares both Mr B. Church and opinion to be bad and not good And when in processe of tyme Cain which was of the evill one bewrayed himself he as a degenerate branch was broken of driven out of the visible presence of God Gen 4. 14. it is further imputed by Moses for sin to the sonnes of God that they maryed with the daughters of men Now if it were still be unlawfull for the godly to contract with the wicked in the civil covenant of mariage how much more in the religious covenant of the Church communion of Saints To discend lower God gave vnto Abraham and his family the covenant of circumcision Gen. 17. 10. which the Apostle Rom. 4. 11. calls the seal of the righteousnes of faith Now to affirm that the Lord would seale vp with the visible seale of the righteousnes of faith any visibly unrighteous faythles person were a bould chalenge of the most High for the profanation of his owne ordinance And the same covenant which God at
old leven to iudge and to put out from among themselves that wicked fornicatour v. 5. 6. 7. 12. 13. of which more hereafter And so I come to the 4. Reason against Popularity as you term â—t but in truth against Christian liberty which is grounded vpoÌ„ Ephe. 4. 11. 12. Your words are these It is most apparant that Christ ascending vp gave gifts for preaching administration of sacraments and government vnto some sorts of men who 〈…〉 e set out there and plainly distinguished from the other saynts the body of the Church Against this hitherto I take no great exceptioÌ„ though the Apostles meaning may be better layd down thus that Christ Iesus the King and Lord of his Church hath set in it certaine sorts and orders of officers rightly fitted and furnished with graces for the reparation of the saynts and aedification of his body to the worlds end This we affirme as lowd as you and with more comfort And therfore after I have observed in a few wordes how little this scripture serves for your present purpose I will in as few more make it appeare how directly it serves against you in many other mayn matters and that you in bringing it have onely lighted a candle whereby to discover your own nakednes This then is that which you would conclude that bycause Christ hath given power and charge to the sorts of ministers here set downe for the reparation of the saynts and aedification of the body that therefore no brethren out of office may medle with the reparation and aedification of the Saynts or Church I do acknowledge that onely Apostles Prophets c. by office and as works of their Ministery are to look to the reparation and aedification of the body but that the brethren out of office are discharged of those duâ—ties I deny any more then the rest of the servants were of watching though out of office bycause the Porter alone was by office to watch Mark 13. 34 37. Yea look what is layd vpon the officers in this place after a more speciall manner by vertue of their office that also is layd vpon the rest of the brethren els where in the same words to be performed in their places as a duty of love for which they have not onely liberty but charge from the Lord. The officers are here charged with the reparation or knitting together of the saynts the same duty in the same words is imposed vpon every brother spirituall and I hope you the Ministers will not be the onely spirituall men in the Church Secondly the officers are here given to aedifie the body the same duety in the same termes is layd vpon every one of the brethren in their places 1 Thes. 5. 11. and vnto these few might be added an hundred places of the same nature Why then should the Ministers of the Lord or any other for their sake envy vnto the Lords people eyther their graces or liberty or thus arrogate all vnto theÌ„selves as though all knowledge were treasured vp in their breasts all power given into their handes as though no drop of grace for aedificatioÌ„ or comfort of the Church could fall from els where then from their lips Moses in the place of numbers before named wisht that all the Lords people were Prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit vpon them and Paul gives liberty to the whol Church and to all in it women excepted ver 34. to prophesie one by one for the instruction edification and comfort of all but with Mr B and his Church I perceive neyther Moses prayer nor Pauls graunt nor Gods spirit must be avayleable or find acceptance for aedification by any save the Ministers The subjects of Kings vse to complayn much of Monopolyes but the subjects of the Lord Iesus have greater cause of complaint that he himself his power presence and graces wherewith he honoureth all his saynts are thus monopolized and ingrossed The similitude which here you borrow froÌ„ the body of man wherein you say the special members have their speciall vertues in themselves given of God and not bestowed vpon them by the body as the eyes to see the tongue to speak c. for the confirmation of the power of the Lord Iesus or liberty to teach admonish and censure in the hands of the officers alone is faulty in both parts of it and conteynes in it sundry errours both theologicall and phylosophicall And first I do here most justly except against your shuffling together and confounding of the personall gifts graces and vertues of the Ministers and their ministeriall power or office The first in deed they have from Christ and not from or by the Church at all as their knowledge zeale vtterance wisdome holynes and the like with which the Church findes them furnished so appoints them vnder Christ to vse these gifts in office of Ministery whereof out of office they have erst given knowledge this power or appointment which they have from or by the Church thus to vsâ— these gifts is another thing then their personall gifts and qualifications themselves which you Mr B. do very fraudulently confound Secondly it is ignorantly affirmed that God enduâ—s certayn members of the body with speciall vertues and properties as thâ—â—y with seing and the like that they have thes properties not from the body but from God For first the very vertue or faculty of seing is not in the ey but in the soul which vseth the ey onely for the instrument of seing so other parts in their kind Oculus non videâ— sed anima per oculiâ—â— And that not immediately neyther but with the help of the spirits naturall vitall and animall diffused throughout the body which the soul vseth most immediately as the instruments of all life sense motion And so it comes to passe not onely in death where the soul and body are separated but in sundry diseases also of the body that the ey fayleth in seeing and so other members in their service Thirdly as the Elders of the Church I confesse may be compared to eyes in the body and the Deacons to hands in a respect so I deny the similitude to hold absolutely Similitudes as they say do not run vpon four feet to streyn them above that which is intended by the holy Ghost in vsing them is a course full both of vanity and errour The Deacons are the handes of the Church for the distribution of her bodily things to them that need yet I trow you would not have the Church suffer the poore to starve where the Deacons are wanting to minister or fayling in their ministration so are the Elders the eyes mouth of the Church for her government and ministration of spirituall things yet must not the Church perish spiritually for their want or negligence no the Lord is more mercifull to his people then so and doth nor ty them so short in
in his teaching such vertue and vigour of the spirit as did draw even the prophane hearers into admiration There are in deed in the cōmon wealth Kings and Magistrates in authority under them partakers of their kingly power by subordination by which participation they properly and effectually even as the King himself bind and loose save and destroy exact and procure obedience civily both in Church and cōmon wealth and that by a kingly and lordly power over the people whose Kings Lords and Maysters they are but the Officers in the Church are in no such authority by participation of Christs kingly power neyther can they properly and effectually bind and loose save and destroy exact and procure obedience as Christ doth neyther are they as civil Magistrates though the Kings servants and ministers yet the peoples Lords and maysters but both Christs and the peoples servants and Ministers Now let any judge that hath in him eyther religion or reason conscience or cōmon sense if it be not irreligious vnconscionable vnreasonable and senselesse that the body of the Church should have no more liberty and power in the imployments of their servants and Ministers in their Office then the body of the cōmon wealth in the imployments of their Lords and Maysters in their Office To this also I may adde that there are many civil ordināces and constitutions in the common wealth which concerne not one of a thowsand of the Kings people many Magistrates Officers chosen the inferiour by the superiour without the peoples privity or cōsent many administratiōs vsed judgemēts passed exequutions done which the greatest part of the people do not nor are bound so much as once to enquire after much lesse are they bound to complayn of the breach of every civil ordinance to see it reformed to charge every Magistrate to look to his office to admonish him if in any thing he deale corruptly or wickedly and if he will not be reclaymed but goe obstinately on in the spirit of an Haeretick Idolater or Atheist to disclaym or depose him but in the Church all and every ordinance concernes every person as a part of their communion without the dispensation of necessity for their vse and aedification all the Officers to be chosen by suffrages and consent of the multitude the brethren are to admonish their brethren of every violation of Gods commaundement and so in order to tell the Church and to see the parties reformed to observe and to take notice of the officers cariage and ministration and to say to Archippus as there is need take heed to thy ministery that thou hast received of the Lord that thou fulfil it and if the Ministers will deal corruptly and so persevere in the spirit of profanenes heresy idolatry or atheism to censure depose reiect or avoyd them otherwise they betray their own soules and salvation These things I thought good vpon this occasion further to annext touching the difference and dissimilitude of civil and ecclesiasticall governours and government not doubting for conclusion to affirm that ther is no one errour in Popery serving more directly to advance Antichrist to the highest step of his throne or there to establish him then thus to confound these two estates in their authority and manner of government though alasse too many will needs transforme Ministers into Magistrates servants into Lords and as the Kings of the earth have given their power authority vnto the beast and arrayed the great whore tha◠fitteth vpon the beast with purple and scarlet and gilded her with gold pretious stones and pearles so do they still help her to hold her kingly lordly authority and to beare vp her pompous trayne and that specially by enforcing those scriptures for ecclesiasticall government and the manner and order of it which were left for direction in civil governments and their administrations And yet for more speciall answer vnto you Mr Bernard it followes not that bycause the people are not interessed in the reformation of abuses by the scriptures you cite therefore it is never found eyther in the old or new testament that any such duty lyes vpon them The scriptures do not intend to speak of all things at once but that charge which is omitted in one place is oft tymes supplyed and prescribed in another And to this purpose I do desire that these few scriptures amongst many others may be considered of Num. 5 1. 2. Iosh. 7. 1. 11. 12. 24. 25. 22. 11. 12. 16. 17. 18. 20. Iudg. 20. 11. 12. 2 Sam. 20. 22. Ezech. 44. 5. 6. 7. 9. Luke 17. 3. 4. Gal. 6. 1. 1 Thes. 5. 14. 1 Cor. 5. whol Ch. all these many other of the same nature will manifest that the people are charged with the reformatiō of abuses for the keeping pure of their cōmunion as well as the officers though not in the same order or degree But what need we seek further as all the scriptures brought forth by Mr Bern. do charge the govervours with reformation and none of them exempt the people in their rank and order so are there some of them so pregnant against him in the point by which he hath been so oft silenced to his face that if he had not set himself in opposition without all measure or modesty he would never offer his cause to be tryed by that evidence in writing by which in speach he hath been so oft cast and convinced The scriptures I especiall mean are Rev. 2. 3. And the thing which he would prov◠from those scriptures is that bycause Iohn in the verses named by him speakes to the Angels of the particular Churches that therefore it conernes the Angels that is the chief officers alone and no way the people no nor any of the Officers but one in a Church by Mr Bernards exposition to see to the reformation of such abuses and disorders as in those Churches are reproved But if in these scriptures he thus sever and sejoyne the officers and people why might not the officers be excluded by a◠good consequence by other verses of these Chapters where mention is made of the Churches and not of the Angels as the people in these where the Angels onely and not the people are mentioned and both alike The answer and truth then is that Iohn writes and sendes these Epistles or this book to the 7. Churches in Asia as he is expresly directed by Christ so willeth all men to heare and take knowledge what the spirit sayth to the Churches but bycause the matters were publique he absent from the Churches it was both most convenient necessary he should direct his letters to the officers for the whol Churches as being not onely most fit for their knowledge but most bound by their places to provoke the Churches vnto and to direct and goe before them in the reformation of such evills as were found amongst them As if the
of he is inferiour to the teaching Elders and deserves lesse honour then they For so the Apostle orders things RoÌ„ 12. 7. 8. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Now in making your Bishops Pastours Doctours you are double forgetfull of your self and double injurious vnto them and which is worse then both the rest you sin against the Lord his truth For the first in your former book you made your Bishops cheif officers in the Church and the successours of the Apostles and Evangelists and here you make them Pastours and Teachers which are the lowest orders of officers that Christ gave for the work of the ministery Ephe. 4. 11. 2. if your Bishops be Pastours and Teachers by their office what are you and the rest of your rank You and they have not the same office but you an office vnder them and so Pastours and Teachers being the lowest order that Christ hath left in his Church your order must needs be something vnder the lowest and of an others leavings then Christs 3. in making your Bishops the Pastours Teachers of the Church of England or the particular Churches in it you lay to their charge an accusation which they will never be able to answer at the day of the Lord which is their not feeding of so many thowsand sheep committed vnto them to be fedd and taught by them Lastly nothing is more vntrue and disagreable to the word of God then that your Provinciall and Diocesan Bishops are the Pastours and Teachers given by Christ to his Church There were no other ordinary officers left or appointed by the Apostles in the Churches but such as were fixed to particular congregations ordinarily called Bishops or Elders Act. 14. 23. 20. 17. 28. Phil. 1. 1. And if it can be shewed that by the word of God any other officers were left or appointed in the Church after the extraordinary officers Apostles Prophets Evangelists whose gifts and places vvere extraordinary besides such Bishops and Elders as vvere limited to particular Churches I vvill yeeld this vvhole cause in the point of the Ministery and so professe The other of Mr B. answer I mynd is about the power of Christ against sin Sathan Antichrist the want whereof Mr Ainsw and that truely objecteth against the English assemblyes Mr B. defence summarily is that there is in the Church of England the preaching of the word which is the power of Christ Rom. 1. 18. as also excommunication though not in every parrish yet in the Church of England in which is comprehended all parrishes and all superiour power over them For which let the Reader observe these particulars First a national Church since Christs death and the dissolution of the Iewish Church is amonstrous compound and savours of Iudaism Secondly if the mayn part of the power of Christ be to be administred in a particular congregation by the ordinary officers thereof namely the preaching of the gospell why not the inferiour part the censures also save that the Byshops to Lord it over all will keep this rod in their own hands Thirdly the Ministers whose judgments reasons you avouch both say and prove in the latter end of your book that this power is given to a particular congregation of faithful people Fourthly you your self lay it down as a mayn ground against popularity and withal sundry scriptures to prove it that Christ hath appoynted the same sorts of men in his Church for preaching administration of the sacraments and government Lastly it is apparant that the particular Church of Corinth gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus had the power of the Lord Iesus for excommunication and so hath every other faythful assembly in the world as they had which since your assemblyes are not they may want this power without any great wrong the evil onely is that it resteth in a worse place then the worst parrish assembly the Bishops court or consistory I proceed Onely my desire is that the things which I have noted touching Christs kingly office be the more carefully observed by all the people of God and servants of Iesus in respect of that most direct opposition which in those latter dayes is made against it and the administration thereof For as in the first tymes after Christs comming in the flesh his prophetical office was directly impugned by Iewes and heathens so as it was †not lawful to speak in his name since that his preisthood by the masse-preisthood sacrifices in the popish Church so now in the last place doth Sathan in his instruments bend his force most directly against and with might and mayn oppose the sovereignty and crown of our Lord Iesus that he may not rule in his Church by his own officers and lawes The matter you say is not false and to shew this you note a difference between true matter false matter and no matter As you speak that which neyther any other nor yet your selfe can vnderstand of false matter so you call them no matter which make no profession of Christ at all â—â— Iewes Turkâ—s Pagans and all them true matter to wit visible which openly professe this â—â—yn truth that Iesus the sonne of Mery is the sonne of 〈…〉 Christ the Lord by whom onely and 〈…〉 they shal be saved Many greivous errours are bound vp 〈…〉 invective of Mr Bernards but for prophanenes this one surmounts them all For what can be spoken more prejudicial to the glorie of God or deragotory to the body of Christ hâ—â— that any person but pronouncing so many words how fil 〈…〉 ious soever he be in his life or what errours soever he mingle with this truth is notwithstanding true visible matter of the Church or a true member of Christs body visibly or so far as men can iudg and so must be received acknowledged Against this odious and prophane errour I wil first deal by some clear Arguments proving the contrary and then come to the allegations he makes for his vngodly purpose If all that professe this mayn truth Iesus the son of Mary c. be true matter of the Church then are most notable haeretiques true matter of the Church The Apellites Câ—rdoâ—â—ans and Marcioâ—â—â—es holding two contrary beginnings or Gods the one good the other evil the Macedonians denying the Holy Ghost to be God the Cerâ—â—â—hyans holding that Christ is not yet risen from the dead the Paternians affirming the inferiour parts of the body of man to be created of the Divill the Patricâ—â—â—â— holding so of the whole body the Novatians and Cathari denying repentance to them that sin the Nicholaitans holding community of all things the Swenk seldians and Enthusiasts denying the outward ministery wayting vpon the revelation of the spirit alone and with these many others as ill or worse then they professing notwithstanding this mayn truth as the most of them did and do Then are excommunicates true matter of the
to repute them holy in regard of the Lordes covenaunt and do therefore set his seale vpon them so are their parents even from their cradle to bring them vp in instruction information of the Lord and so to prepare them for the publique ministery vnto which if they in their riper yeares give obedience in any measure they are so to be continued in the Church if other-otherwise they are in due time as vnprofitable branches to be lopped of and so cease to be of the Pastours charge Secondly for men falling into wickednes in the Church if they continue obstinate and irreclamable then are they in order to be consured and so the Pastour is discharged of them if on the contrary God vouchsafe them repentance this cannot be called a conversion of them to sanctification but a restoring or recovering of them out of some particular evill or evils into vvhich through infirmity they are falln So that the doctrine stands sound for any thing that Mr Bernard hath sayd or that eyther he or any other man can say that the Pastours office stands in feeding not in converting as also that Pauls scale and work was not the bare conversion of the Corinthians but their conversion from heathenism plantation into a Church and these with the signes of an Apostle even signes and wonders and great works 2 Cor. 12. 12. Lastly that the simple be not deceived and eyther give honour where it is not due or give it not where it is due let them consider that the conversion of a man is no way to be ascribed to the order or office eyther of Apostles or Pastours but onely to the word of God which by the inward work of the spirit is the power of God to salvation to them that beleeve it is the law of the Lord that converts the soule The word of the kingdome is that good seed which being sown in good ground prospereth to the bringing forth of fruit to life whether he that sow it be in a true office or in a false office or in no office at all And though it be true which Mr B. saith in his former book that the Ministers in England do preach as publik Officers of that Church yet doth their Office confer or help nothing at all to the conversion of men It is the blessing of God vpon the mayn truthes they teach not vpon their office of Preisthood which converts which truthes if they taught without their office eyther before they were called to it or being deprived of it would without doubt be as effectuall as they are yea much more by the blessing of God as appears in this that such amoÌ„gst them as make least account of their office formally received from the Prelates are the most profitable instruments amongst the people where on the contrary the professed formalists cleaving vnto their office and order canonically are generally vnprofitable eyther for the conversion or confirmation of any to or in holines To conclude then the turning of men vnto holynes of life is no iustification of your office of ministery or calling vnto it but of such truthes as are taught amongst you which all men are bound to hold and honour as we also do though we disclaym the order and power in and by which they are ministred The seventh and last argument Mr B. takes from certayn properties of true sheepheards layd down Ioh. 10. which he also affirmeth the Ministers of the Church of England have the first whereof is that they go in by the dore Iesus Christ that is by his call and the Churches which as he sayth he hath proved at large In so saying he speaks at large let him prove that the Bishop or Patron or eyther of them is in Christs place set by him to chuse Ministers or that they are the Church to which he hath committed the power of calling and choosing them and answer the Reasons brought to the contrary otherwise his large proving will appeare but a large boasting and he will give men occasion to remember the proverb It is good beating a proud man The 2. property wherewith he investeth them is that the porter openeth vnto them by which porter Mr Smith means the Church for which Mr B reviles him out of measure making the porter invisibly Gods spirit visibly the authority committed by the Church vnto some for admitting men into the house the Church of God which sayth he is a sensible exposition according to the custome with us and in Iudaea As there are many true ministers in respect of men which enter not in at all by the spirit of God or any motion of it as it was with Iudas is with all hypocrites who for by-respects take that calling vppon them so is Mr Smithes exposition making the Church the porter far more probable then yours who make the porter the authority of the Church coÌ„mitted to some for the admission of men Is not the porter a person rather then a thing And who that hath but common sense will not rather by the porter vnderstand the person or persons having authority then the authority which he or they have And if you Mr B. had but remembred what you write of the properties of the Church pag. 237. 138. making as here you do the porter or authority of the Church a property of a sheepheard you would I suppose in modesty have forborn the charging of Mr Smith to have his braynes intoxiâ—ated by his new wayes to be madded by his own fantasies in religion for wryting in this poynt as he doth And for the thing it self it is evident that Christ Iesus is properly the sheepheard of the sheep here spoken of and that therefore the authority of the Church can be no porter for hi enterance or admission I do therefore rather think that by the porter is meant God the father whose care and providence is ever over his flock who therefore hath called and appoynted his sonne Iesus Christ to be that good sheepheard who gave his life for his sheep And if you will apply this to ordinary Pastours and their calling then sure by the porter must be meant such as have received this liberty power from Christ by the hands of his Apostles for the chusing and appoynting of ministers which I am sure of all others are not the Romish or English Bishops Christ would never have the wolves to appoynt his sheep their sheepheards The 3. property of good sheepheards which you chalenge to your selves is that they call their own sheep by name that is they take notice of their people of their growth in religion â—â—d do abyde with them diligently watching over their flockes as by true and faithfull promise made in the open congregation they be bound in their ordination It must here be observed as before that Christ speaks onely of himself properly for of him onely it can be sayd that the
in the same story when Deacons were wanting in the Ch at Ierusalem the twelve calling the multitude of the disciples together put them in mind of their liberty and informed them in their duety for the chusing of so many as were needfull so furnished as is there noted The same course did Paul and Barnabas afterwards direct the Churches amongst the Gentiles for the chusing of Elders in every City where they came Now if all things which are written before be written for our learning and for the learning of all the Churches and people of God why are not the people and Churches of God in all places to learne from hence their liberty and duty for the chusing of officers where they are wanting having men therevnto fitted by the Lord. And what hindereth but that the Church the multitude the Disciples call them as you wil in the fellowship and covenant of the gospell may be as clearely informed in their duety and as effectually exhorted to the vse of their liberty by the writings of the Prophets and Apostles as by their speaches The Apostle wryting to the Church of Corinth about the censuring of the incestuous man though he were absent in body yet was present in spirit which was in effect all one and as avaylable to that purpose as his bodily presence should have been so though Moses and Peter and Paul be bodily absent yet are they in their wrytings present in spirit after a sort nay God himself in spirit is present in them with his Churches people both for their warrant direction and comfort Though it be true then which M B sayth that the people wayted till the Apostles came and that they did not elect officers but vpon their exhortation yet must it also be considered that Apostles do now come in their writings as there they did in corporall presence and that they exhort as fully in them now as they did in speach then Besides there are now no Apostles vpon earth nor other Church officers having the care of all the Churches in the world as the Apostles had nor that are extraordinarily and miraculously endewed with all giftes especially with the gift of all tongues as the Apostles were nor that have the like generall commision to teach all nations as they had The ordinary officers which the Apostles and Evangelists left in the Churches and for the choyse of whom they left order to the worlds end were such Elders or Byshops as were assigned and fixed to such particular flockes as they were to feed vnder that cheif sheepheard and great Bishop Iesus Christ. Besides if the Churches or people should wayt now as M Ber. would have them till the Bishops of Rome or England came to them as the Apostles did to the Churches in their time to exhort them to chuse officers and to ordeyn them for them they might languish vnder a wan hope wayt till their eyes fayled in their heads Wherevpon then I do conclude that if the Church without officers may elect it may also ordeyn officers if it have the power and commission of Christ for the one and that the greater it hath it also for the other which is the lesse If it haue officers it must vse them as hands to put the persons by ordination into that office to which they haue right by election but if it want officers it may and must vse other the fittest instruments it hath as in the naturall body if men want hands or be deprived of the vse of them they do for their present necessity vse their teeth or feet or other fittest parts of the body for the busynes possible to be done by them Lastly if the Lord should rayse vp in America or the like place a company of faythfull men and women which of stones should become children to Abraham by the reading of the scriptures or by some godly mens writings or which is most like by the holy instructions and exhortations of some merchants or travaylers how or by what meanes should they come by Ministers Must they be sent out of Europe unto theÌ„ And if they were they would be barbariâ—ns ech to others neyther vnderstanding others language But what to do hath the Pope of Rome or the Bishops in England or the Praesbytery in Germany or France to appoynt them in America Ministers It is evident that such an assembly as I speak of having received the gospel haue received the keyes of the kingdome and the power of Christ and being joyned in this fellowship of the gospell haue the joynt vse of the keyes power of Christ being within the covenaunt of Abraham are the Ch of God so haue power to choose and appoynt their own Ministers froÌ„ within themselves Now because these things wil be better taken at other mens haÌ„ds then at ours yea it may be with many through praejudice their very authority wil sway more then our Arguments though never so rightly grounded vpoÌ„ the scriptures coÌ„mon reason I wil therefore here crave leave to bring in a few men of singular note both at home abroad to shew their judgments in the case in hand And I will first bring in one of our own nation of great account and that worthily with al that fear God how ever he were against vs in our practise The man is Mr Perkins He then writing about ordination succession in his CoÌ„mentary vpon the Epistle to Gal ch 1. ver 11. gives this testimony that if in Turky or America or elswhere the gospel should be received of men by the counsel perswasion of private persons they should not need to send into Europe for consecrated Ministers but had power to choose their own Ministers from within themselves the Reasons of this he renders in the same place bycause where God gives the word he gives the power also And I do desire especially his ReasoÌ„ may be observed which is that where God gives the word there he gives the power also Wherevpon it followes that any other asseÌ„bly whether in America or Europe separating themselves froÌ„ Idolatry whether Heathenish or Antichristian receiving the gospell of Christ do with the gospel receive the power also so may choose their ministers within themselves need not send to any other place no not to the next parish for consecrated Ministers In the 2. place I wil alledg one of greater note and more ancient and that is Philip Melancton who in his Answer to the ministers in Bohemia which taught the incorrupt doctrine of the gospell refutes the praetext of ordination to be taken from the Bishops with that of Paul if any teach another gospell let him be an Athema adding also that onely the assembly where true doctrine soundeth is the Church and that in it is the ministery of the gospell in it are the keyes of the kingdom of heaveÌ„ Wherefore in that very assembly in eo ipso coetu
that bycause one thing is done that an other might follow vpon it that therefore the latter which is to follow is also done And for the poynt as it is the work of the spirit to lead men into all truth as all that are Christs or mēbers of his body have his spirit so doth it follow that all the members of the Church have the spirit given them of God to lead them into all truth though it have not his full work by reason of the cōtrary work of the flesh in this life wher all mē know but in part 3. That Mr. Bar holds every truth in the scriptures fundamentall that is as they expound it Pag 147. such as if it be not known and obeyed the whole religiō and fayth of the Church must needs fall to the ground Mr. Ainsworth hath set down his words from which no such collection can be made he directs them that worthily agaynst these deceivers which knowing acknowledging that they want many speciall ordinances of Christ and are burdened in stead of them with the inventions of Antichrist do notwithstanding encourage themselves and others by these distinctiōs that they haue the fundamentall truthes of the gospell and whatsoever is necessary to salvation and the like in a purpose to go on all their life long in disobedience For which men how much better were it to consider how it is written that whosoever shall break one of the least commaundments and teach men so he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven then thus to turn vpon them which reprove them for their vnfaythfulnes and misinterpreting their sayings most injuriously to spend thus many words as these ministers do in confuting their owne corrupt glosses Their fourth and last Argument is for that all the known Churches in the world acknowledge their Church for their sister and giue her the right hand of fellowship This Argum. hath been sundry tymes vrged by Mr. Ber. and so answered sundry tymes both by M. Ainsworth and my self in the former part of my book whether I must refer the reader contenting my self with a breif observation of such vntruthes and errours as these ministers are driven vnto in the prosecuting of this Argument as First that all the known Churches in the world are well acquaynted with their doctrine and liturgy to which they should also ad their book of ordination and canons Ecclesiasticall for their ministery and government then which nothing is more vntrue Beza which was specially interessed in these matters will hardly be perswaded of the true state of things touching dispensations pluralityes the power of excommunication in one man and the like It is most vntrue that God hath sanctifed the testimony of Churches for a principall help in the decyding of controversies in this kind It is though some help yet lesse principall yea the least of many 3. That Paul feared that without the approbation of Iames and Cephas and Iohn he should have run in vayn Paul feared no such thing for he was both assured of his calling from the Lord and had also taken long before that tyme good experience of the Lords blessing vpon his ministery both amongst the Iewes and Gentiles and knew right assuredly that his preaching was not in vayne His care was to take away from the weak all scruple of mynde or iealousy of contention amongst the Apostles he went vp to Ierusalem to confer with them 4 That Paul sought to win cōmendation and credit to the orders which he by his Apostolicall authority might have established by the iudgement of other Churches Whereas the Apostle Paul did by his Apostolicall authority appoynt those orders in all those churches he speaks of as the scriptures quoted testify 1 Cor 4. 7. 17. 16. 1. Besides the Church of England can win no great credit to her orders by the orders of other Churches considering how contrary she is in them to all other Churches departed from Rome whom alone in very many the resembleth Fiftly the testimony which Iohn Baptist gave of Christ is vnfitly brought for the testimony of one Church of an other For it was the proper and principall work of †Iohns calling to give witnes of Christ wherein also he could not erre It is not so with or between any Churches in the world Where it is further affirmed that there are cases wherein one Church is commaunded to seek the iudgement of other Churches and to account it as the iudgment of God for which Act 15. 2. is alledged as it is true that one Church is in cases to seek the judgement and help of an other so is it vntrue that the judgement of that other Church or of all the Churches in the world is to be accounted as the judgment of God Indeed the decrees of the Apostles at Ierusalem being by imediate infallible direction of the H Ghost were to be accounted as the judgement of God but for any ordinary eyther Churches or persons to challenge the like vnto their determinations were popelike praesumption To the Ministers demand in the next place Sayth Christ to any particular congregation of the faythful in our land Whatsoever they bind in earth is bound in heaven Mat. 18. 18. and sayth he it not also to the Churches of other nations I do answer that if Christ have so sayd to the particular cōgregatiōs who hath sayd it to the Praelates their substitutes or to any officer or officers excluding the body of the Congregation Even none but he whose work it is to gainsay Christ to subvert his order 2. If any of your parishes be such congregatiōs why do not you as faythful Ministers exhort thē to guide them in the vse of this power of binding loosing which Christ hath given them Or are not you content to suffer them to go on and your selves to go before them in the losse of this liberty yea in a most vile subjection to their and your spirituall Lords which have vsurped it And for the Argument it is of no force for neyther hath any one Church in the world that power over an other nor all the Churches in the world over any one which the meanest Church hath over any her member or members whomsoever One Church may forsake an other but juditially to censure or excommunicate it may it not The same answer for substance may serve for that which is objected from 1 Cor. 14. 32. Besides no Church can so fully discern of the estate of an other Church as it can of the proper members apperteyning vnto it Yea I ad that in this respect wee are better able to iudge of the Church of Engl then are any forreyn Churches notwithstanding our weaknes bycause they do not in any measure know the estate of it as we do Lastly as that saying