end you ad that the Apostle doth shewe vs how he was dead and how he was aliue by adding dead flesh and quickened spirit The verie text as I take it will denie you this for it hath not that the spirit was quickened and the fleshe killed but that Christ was killed in the fleshe and quickened in the spirit which is all one as if he had said that the suffered death as he was man and ouercame death as he was God And this Paull doeth speake in other wordes that he was crucified in his infirmities yet liveth he through the power of God Fourthlie you say that the Scripture doeth joine this his going and preaching close to his passion As if it had said As soon as he had suffered he went and preached This as if includeth no necessarie matter We expect demonstration and wil not be caried with as and if Fiftlie you argue out of the 6. of Genesis that the preaching of Noah is attributed to the third person of the Deitie and not to the second The wordes be these My Spirit shall not alwaies striue with man because he is but flesh Which wordes fewe or rather no interpreters that euer I saw expound as you doe of the third person of the Deitie Tremelius and Iunins whose great panies learning and judgement all sinceare hearts do reuerence expound them thus I will not long dispute with my self saieth the Lorde what to doe with these men for my sentence shall stand that except they spedelie repent I wil destroy them Neither maketh it much against vs though it were as you would haue it For seeing the actions of the Deitie are cōmon to all the three persons he erreth not that giueth thē to any of the three So doth the scripturs in many places attribute the resurrectiō of Christ sometimes to the Father somtimes to the sonne and sometimes to the Spirit of sanctification And Christ himselfe telleth vs that whatsoeuer the Father doth the same he doeth also After this you object that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is disobedient some-time doth separate the time of their disobedience and his preaching But heere I must put you in minde that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is went disobedient preached be all of one tense in the Greeke and must needes be referred to one time so that hee went and preached to them euen then when they were disobedient And this the word disobedient doth confirme For to whome I pray you were they disobedient but to the spirit that preached to them As for the adverbe sometime it is not set heere to separate words of one time but to distinguish the time of their inprisonment which was present from the daies of their rebellion which was past in the dayes of Noah when the long patiēce of the Lord exspected their amendement Whereas you argue that this cannot bee spoken of Noah his preaching because he preached to men and not to Spirits I am perswaded that no man can preache to men and not to their Spirites because hee that teacheth a man instructeth his Spirit which is his reasonable soule And yet heere you may marke if it please you that there be two things heere spoken of preching prison the on pertayning to these spirits when they were men with spirits the other now that they are onelie spirits and that therfore the Apostle did discreetlie choose the name spirit which is common to both these tymes Lastlie you charge this construction with violēce for that we take the word spirit in one place for the Deitie of Christ and streight way againe for the spirits of men in prison I hope you will not denie but that the word is vsuall in both significations that it is no wrong to giue words their own significations when the drifts and circumstances of the place doth requyre them Hitherto I haue dealt with your objections against Beza Nowe I will proue with vnfallible reasons that your sense cannot stand with this text You take the word flesh onlie for the bodie of Christ which died and was buried and the word spirit for his humane soule which you beare vs in hand did descend into hell and did preach there to the soules that had ben disobedient and rebellious in the dayes of Noab If this your conceit shall go for current that which the Apostle speaketh heere of Christ may be verified as well of anie other man For when we die our soules die no more then his did But let vs look a little nearer the matter The spirit heere as it appeareth by the text doeth signifie that which gaue life to that that was dead That I trust was not his humane soule but his deuine and heauenlie spirit Thirdlie in this Participle mortified is comprised death which giuen to Christ is neuer taken in al the Scriptures for the temporal death of his bodie onlie but whatsoeuer Christ suffered either in soule or bodie for the redemption of our soules and our bodies doth compryse his whole passion Which if it bee true then the word flesh must be the whole subject of all this passion that is both his soule and body or the whole man Christ For hee suffered as well in soule for our soules as in bodie for our bodies or else he had beene but half a Redeemer Fourthlie seeing his bodie was quickned that is restored from the graue as well as his soule from hell If you take spirit heer for his humane soule then shal you confound those things that the Apostle doth distinguish attributing that to the soule alone which is commō both to the soule and the bodie Fiftlie seing quikned is to receaue life either which it neuer had or els had lost the soule cannot be said to be quickned because it neuer lost life after that it once liued with the bodie Heere you tell vs that quickened is to be deliuered from miseries and sorrowes Howe the English word may be taken I leaue it to the discretion of the discreete and indifferent reader But sure I am it will proue a hard thing to finde that signification either in the Latine word viuificari or the greeke word Zoopoteisthas which bee so mixed with life that if they signifie deliuerie from miseries then life it self must signifie miseries and sorrowes which though they follow on it are neuer signified by it If this deuise may stand you wil ouerthrow the Antithesis betweene dead and quickened For if quickned doth not signifie a restitution to life what contrariety hath it with mortefied or dead which signifieth the extinguishing of life Sixtlie spirit doeth heere signifie that which was free from death and the violence of his enemies This I hope you will not say was his humane soule wherein hee suffered the death of the soule that is the torments of Hell as well as in bodie the death of the bodie Seuinthlie the soule of Christ could not
preach beeing destitute of a tongue mouth and other organes of necessitie required in that action Eightlie to what end shuld Christ preach to those damned soules who were past the frute of his preaching that which you say that he went to reproue them is not liklie For meÌ„ are reproued either for amendement or to take away excuses which to these was needlesse beeing past all remedie and excuse Ninthlie this preaching was then when their dis-obedience was reform-able which was in the dayes of Noah and neuer since Add to these if it please you that moste infallible reason of Bezaes taken from the drift and scope of the text to whose notes I referre you being not able to handle it so well as hee hath done it himself HIL his Reply HEere you play the Captaine and will beate down bulwarks and therefore you should haue these 4. properties in you vertue knowledge authority and felicity for the first two they are in you God grant you vse theÌ„ to his glory but what authority you haue to interpret the word I know not therefore in this case I hope you shall haue no felicitie Where you say that this word spirit doth signifie the deity and this word flesh the humanity of Christ and that there is an antithesis betwene the diuine humane nature I confesse y â— spirit some time doeth signifie the Godhead and fleshe the humanity of Christ But they doo not so signifie in this place as I proue by the circumstances of the text and the woords them selues For where you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 killed or put to death doth signifie the whole passion of Christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth the resurrection of Christ that can note be for of the passion of Christ is mention made before in the same 18. verse Christ suffered for vs the just for the vnjust to bring vs to God Now after his sufferings ended as Peter saith he was both killed and made aliue Now of his resurrection is mention made in the 21. verse as of his ascention in the 22. verse Therfore seeing the sufferings of Christ are mentioned before and his resurrection is namelye set downe after whereof can these words he vnderstood but of the seperation of the body and the soule and of the state of them during their seperation for an antithesis as you know is of contrary or diuers things as in this place you see in killed and quickned now how both these were true at on time S. Peter doth shew for at the same time he was dead as concerning his body he was aliue in spirit that is in soule for the soule seperate from the body is aptly called a spirite Eccle. 12. 7. And dust returne to earth as it was and the spirite returne to God that gaue it So is it taken Heb. 12. 23. Act. 7. 49. and so doth this woord signifie in this place for Christ was not killed both in body and soule but only in body and in flesh for if the soule of Christ had bene killed then had it bene mortall Therefore Athanasius Epiphanius and all the Fathers which did confute the Heretiques called Damoerite and Appolinaris which denyed Christ to haue a soule do coÌ„fute them by this place prouing that his spirite was among the spirits that his soule seperate from his body was among the soules seperate from their bodies This interpretation you see is gathered out of Gods woord is made more manifest by the wordes following 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we translate In which sprite he went and preached to the spirits in prison First you translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which But in the 1. pet 16 you do not so translate it nor in the 2. Chap. and 12. ver the same woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are Eph. 1. 13. 2. 22. 5. 18. and so could I cite at the least an hundreth texts in the new Testament where if you translat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which or by whome you shall ouerthrow the meaning of the holy ghost The next word construing is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wâ—ich as I haue saide before so I auouche still is spoken noâ— of the deity neuer in all the Scriptures and therefore must needes be spoken of the soul of Christ To conâ—ute this you alleadg Gen. 18. 21. Exod. 3. 8. First I must tell you these bookes were written in the Hebrewe tong and not in the Ereâ—ke I craued an instant out of the new Testament Secondly in those places that you haue named y â— interpreters do traÌ„slate Iarad by y â— greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And this I proue Iohn 16. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For if I shall not depart the comforter wil not come vnto you but if I shal depart I will send him vnto you Heere you see when he speketh of the descending of the deity he vseth y â— word 368 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but when he speaketh of the humanitie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And in the same chapter verse the 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I came out from the Father and cam into the world againe I leaue the world and goe to my father And this proprietie of speach which the holy ghost vseth ought to be obserued I confesse the scriptures vseth the figure Anthropopatheia but when God is said to come downe there is vsed the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or some one of the forenamed and when mention is made of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is alwaies spoken of the humanitie as it is to be seen Luk. 4. 30. 9. 51. 52. 56. 57. Luk. 13. 22. Ioh. 8. 1. And in this place of Peter the last verse is vsed the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He went vp into heauen Therfore if you can quote but one text in the new Testament that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is figuratiuely applied to the deitie your interpretation may seeme tolerable but if yon can not as I knowe it is impossible then can you neuer proue your interpretation to be agreaeble to faith because it is not agreable to y â— word Out of the next word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this I note he that was killed and quickned did preach but Christ was killed and quickned ergo Christ not the deitie preched He preched not vocally for he was killed ergo he preached really in soule for here is noted First who preached Christ To whom to the spirits Where in hell When after his death and before his resurrection This is the order of Peter and of our Creede which cannot bee by man ouerthrowen The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
10. reasons and put other 10. to the other scale to counter-weigh them You neither defend your owne nor answere mine in order as they ly But like a mad Dog snatch heere one and there another and let them goe that you cannot bite I cannot follow your steppes they be so crooked Wherefore I will walke on my first steppes and seeke your answeres where I can finde them That which I say of the vse of the words you confesse and diuers of my reasons you slip without an answere The first of my reasons was from these wordes mortified in the flesh and quickened in the Spirit Thus If flesh heere doth signifie the body and spirit the humane soule then nothing in these words is spokeÌ„ of Christ that may not be verified of other men But in these words some singular matter is attributed to Christ that other men are not capable of For we cannot say that Augustine Ierome or Cyprian are mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirit in that sense as it is heere spoken of Christ Ergo flesh is not the bodie and spirit the humane soule of Christ That which you answere of his desceÌ„ding into Hell and returning thence is not comprised in these words wheron my argument is builded though you gaue them your owne liverie and cloathed them in your owne cullours The second was this The Spirit heer doth signifie that which gaue life to that which was dead But the humane soul gaue not life to that that was dead Ergo the spirit doth not signifie the humane soule Heere you denie the maior and alleadge against the 〈…〉 which you call ours and should bee yours as well as ours if you and others of 〈…〉 highlie 〈…〉 in the flesh and 〈…〉 mortified as hee was man and quickened as hee was God by himselfe According to that of Iohn I haue power to lay downe my life and I haue power to take it vp againe Take your note of in and by and make a wheele-barrow of it But you moue me heere another question of some importance and craue an instance if I can in all the Scripture Howe one word in one period can carie two significations You are not I hope so verie an novice in Gods booke as you make your selfe Haue you not read Let the dead burie their dead Or labour not for the meat that perisheth but the meate that lasteth c. Or Who so will saue his life shall lose it Or Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it Or God is a spirit and will be worshipped in spirit wher you haue the same word in both significations O howe you would be-slouen mee if you could finde such a hole in my hose Now I feare nothing but that you craued an instance out of the olde Testament The third was If death whensoeuer it is attributed to Christ in the Scriptures compriseth the whole passion the fleshe in this text must be the subject of the whole passion that is the whole manhoode of Christ But deth is neuer attributed to christ but for the whol passioÌ„ Ergo flesh must be the subject of the passion that is the whole manhood of Christ Heer you denie the minor and like a skilfull Logician giue instance in the questioÌ„ If you haue not forgot your olde logicke the argument and the thing argued should not be one You supplie the imperfection of this answere with two arguments 〈…〉 that death in this place cannot signifie the passion 〈…〉 Your first reson is that the passion is mentioned before in the word suffred Be it so Yet it may bee repeated in more speciall tearmes By your reason in the beleef where a repetition is lesse tollerable crucified and died belong not to the passion because they are expressed before in the word suffered Suffering which may be in torturing whipping and imprisonment is too slacke a tearme to expresse the hellish tormentes of Christs passion The other is if mortified pertaine to the soule and bodie it will followe that the soule is also mortall You tell mee out of Athanasius in the reply to my fift section that by the double punishment inflicted on Adam the soule should die the death And I heard you preach in our Ladie Church at Sarum That when it was saide to Adam thou shalt die the death the meaning was he should die the death of soule and bodie Now if you wil apply these two significations of death to Christ the one to the bodie and the other to the soule I hope this objection wil neither scratch nor byte My fourth reason was this In this Antithesis mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirite morfied belongeth not to the spirit nor quickened to the fleshe but mortified belongs to the soule for it died the death of the soule and quickened to the 〈◊〉 for it receaued life againe Ergo flesh is not the bodie onlie and spirit the humane soule To this you answere that Christ was raised from the dead and that was signified in the word resurrection vers 21. and therefore you do not confound these distinguished things antitheticallie opposed But wee that make mortâ—â—ed suffered quickned resurrection all one How this may answere mee I leaue it to the â—ead that bred it to explane But you do vs wroÌ„g we make not mortified suffered one c. Suffered and quickned ar tearms more general mortified raised againe more speciall expressing things more plainlie and particularie which were touched before more covertâ—â— and generallie My fift reason was To be quickened is to receaue life which the thing that is quickened either neuer had or els had loste But the soule had life in the bodie and neuer 〈◊〉 after Ergo the soule cannot bee quickened To this you answere nothing but tell vs by the same reason it can much lesse pertaine to the Deitie Thus thinking to wound vs with our owne weapon you strike short and with the back drawe blood at your owne brow I told you in my answere to your second objection that quickened is not heer attributed to the Deitie but to the whole Christ by the participatioÌ„ of proprieties How can you excuse your self heere of wilfull falsification But you mend the matter with a more sufficieÌ„t answere out of Ioh. That the soule of the beleeuer liueth though hee were dead What then Iohn telleth not your tale that the soule of the beleeuer is quickened when hee is dead That it liueth is not the question The burden of the bodie which you alledge out of the book of Wisd loadeth the soule but killeth it not And therfore when it is deliuered of that load it is not quickened but releeued And the renewing of the inward man which you alleadge from Paule quickneth not the soule being dead but addeth courage and comfort to the living and languishing soule by Gods promises Heere I see you are quite thrust froÌ„ your hold at Chippenham that
demum reddidit animatum quo purius inde ferretur ad coelum Here this man maketh the place where Christ was buried the mouth of hell meaning thereby the place of death our Doctor denies that and yet this is one of his Authors Aretius in the ninth of his common places fol. 31. Sed de illâ— non satis constat quamdiu apud inferos sit commoratus non diu vt apparet vt eadem die secundum animam ab inferis reversus gloriose Paradisum ingressus sit cum latrone Heere this man saith that Christ was not one day in hell M. Doctor saith that hee was there al the three daies that he lay in the graue and yet this is his chefest Authour Maister Nowell in his greater Catechisme saith Christum vt coâ—pore in terrae viscera Ita anima à corpore sepâ—rata ad inferos descendisse simulque etiam virtutis suae virtutem atque efficacitatem ad moâ—tuos atque inferos adeo ipsos ita penetrasse vt incredulorum animae acerbissimâ—m justissimamque infidelitatis suae daÌ„nationem â—pseque Satanas iâ—ferorum princeps tyrannidis suae tenebrarum potestatem omnem debâ—â—itatam fractam aâ—que ruina collapsâ—m â—ssâ— persentiret Contra vero mortui Christo dum vixerunt fidentes redemptionis suae â—pus jam peractum esse ejusq vim atque virtutem cum suavissima cerâ—â—ssimaque consolatione intelligeâ—ent atque perciperent Heere gentle Reader because Maister Doctor wrongeth this good man then whome the earth beareth not many and as I am perswaded 〈◊〉 any better I pray thee mark this place well for these are the onely wordes that M. Doctor challengeth in all his workes First thâ—u maâ—est obserue that he vseth the name inferi not for the damned onely but for al the dead because he saith that by Christs descending ad inferos both the wicked felt the justnes of their damnation and the godly the sweetnes of their salvation and so Christus descendit ad inferos is but Christ descended to the dead Secondly that he saith not that Christs soule descended into the hell of the damned as our Doctor doth but that his soul being severed from his body that is beeing departed this life he discended ad inferos that is was laid vp amongst them whose life was blotted out of the memory of the living Thirdly hee saith not that those to whome he descended saw him there personally but they felt and vnderstood the one their jâ—st damnation the other their sweet salvation together with his descending to the dead that is presently vpon the dissolution of his soule and body Wherefore great wrong hath our D. done this man to wâ—ing hiâ— words being somewhat obscure to a sense that he never meant and to brag of him as being the father of an opinion that I dare hope for he is yet aliue he doth disallow His opinion is amongst all the godly allowed to be true thâ—ugh not so wel fitting the article of the Creed but our D. opinion no man accepteth yet for trueth except it be himself and his favorities Thus I haue set down what jarring there is betweene this man and his authors Now I will shewe thee how he hath pulled some into this braul that never dealt in the matter to make his muster booke long ynough to feare mâ—n with naked names Robert Samuell in the boâ—ke of Martyrs making a confession of his faith when he comes to this point saith no more thaÌ„ the words of the beleefe which be meant as wel with vs as with him and him he quotes for one Lambeâ—t in the same book handling the question of the real presence quotes a place out of Aug. ad Dardanum to proue that Christ being corporally in heaven is not corporally in the Sacrament in which place being long Aug. amongst those things that Lambert quotes him for saith that Christ according to his soule was in the bottome of hel which if it be wel taken may be was devoured and swallowed vp of death but Lambert himselfe neither alloweth nor dissalloweth it as being a thing beside his question and yet hee is alleadged for one M. Fox writeth a litle Pamphlet intituled Christ triumphing be cause in it is displaied the greatnes of the battell the worthines of the victory the joye of the conquest The Printer for I think M. Fox neuer cared greatly what signe they hanged at his shop dore or if it was M. Fox himselfe all is one devised a picture to expresse the matter within the book A man with foure wound in his hands fect invested in a bright cloud with a glistering flame as it were of fame glory glimmering about his face standing with the one foot on the head of a Dragon and the other on the heart of death This picture M. Doctor tooke to be so sure an argument of Christs descending into hell that he not onely causeth to set it before his owne bâ—â—k likewise but also repeateth the name of M. Fox 4. times if not oftner as favouring his opinion hauing to my knowledge not one word in al his works and I am sure not one syllable in the book which he quotes of Christ triumphing saving that picture Thus gentle Reader I haue giuâ—n thee a vewe of 23. of M. Doctors Authors of whome some speake against him some differ from him some say nothing for him wherefore thou maiest conclude that it is but a painted cause that alleadgeth pictures for arguments there is not one of al the Authours that he masters so often that agreeth with him in all things concerning this opinion Cajetane a Cardinall of Rome writing vpon the place of Peter Iâ— he had not scarred at his popish name commeth neeâ—er him than any of these Vt ipse Christus mortificatus carne nam vere mortuus est secundum carnem viuificatus autem spiritu nam tunc cum mortuus erat viuificatus erat spiritu vt pote beatus secundum spiritum triumphans de daemonibus Here he hath his descending into hell his triumphing over the Deuils his being aliue when he was dead and his flesh for the body spirit for the humane soule Therefore good Reader let him follow Cajetan and follow thou the trueth FINIS The second consideration is better than the first The admitting of a man to a degree of schoole in Oxford is called a grace Synod Ed. Quemadmodum Christus pro nobis mortuus est sepultus ita est etiam credendus ad inferos descendisse Nam corpus vsque ad resurrectioneÌ„ in sepulchro iacuit spiritus ab illo emissus cum spiritibus qui in carcere siue in inferno detinebantur fuit illisque predicauit queadmodum testatur Petri locus Synod Eliz. principium tantum retinuit Quemadmodum Christus pro nobis mortuus est sepultus ita est etiam credendus ad inferos descendisse A true and godly opinion The Paralogismes in the D. reply 1 My argumeÌ„ts
bee in Latine Thus much for the aunswere that you deale with You left another answere which I will heere set against your argument in his best liuery If the man is said to be say you wher the soule is then where the man is not the soule is not But the man is saide to bee where the soule is Ergo where the man is not the soule is not First say I the maior is not true For though the man may bee said to bee where the soule is by a Synecdoche yet it will not follow that where the man is not the soule is not Because this speach is simple and that is figuratiue In a good argument the wordes must carie one face not heere one and there another To examplifie this with your owne examples out of Math 8. Manie shall rest with Abraham Isaac and Iacob in the kingdome of heauen Abraham Isaac and Iacob are said to be in heauen by a figure becaus their soules are there But if you will take the words simplie and conclude because Abraham that is the whole man is not in heauen therefore his soule is not there euerie carter will finde the absurditie of your fallacie This for my first reply Now I add that you flee from the wordes of the text For Christ said not to Marie I haue not beene with my Father but I am not yet ascended to my Father which wordes will admit no forme to carie your conclusion turne them and winde them as you list For the Scripture denieth in plaine words that the name of ascension can be giuen to the soule I hope you will grant that Dauids soule is in heauen and yet of him it is saide Act. 2. 34. David is not ascended This wypeth also away your other objection of two ascensions For that name was neuer yet giuen to a man in respect of the soule And therefore I will haue the goale though you stand in it You wring out of my examples of the whole race of mankind Campions bodie two absurdities The one that I hold no greater vnion betweene Christs soule and his bodie then al the men in the world The other that I holde the soule of Christ to bee mortall because I compare it to an integral part of Campions body Why M. Doctor haue you now you are Doctored forgot the olde speach of the Schooles when you were a generall Quae comparantur in vno non comparantur in omnibus Things cōpared in one thing are not like in all things You may bee like your Father and yet perhappes your Father coulde not wrangle in this matter like your selfe And the Cuckow singeth onelie in the spring like the Nightingall though in melodie and variety of notes there bee no likelie-hood at all An argument taken indefinitly from the manhood of Christ to his soule and his bodie parts thereof is no better then from the race of mankinde to euerie particular man or from the bodie of the traitour Campion to the parts thereof And yet if you regarde the vnion of the soule body or the immortality of the soule there is no more comparison then betweene your spirit and your Fathers if it was righter or the Cuckowes song and the Nightingals beeing far sweeter Lastlie you tel mee that I vtter a great error in these wordes the whole man Christ Indeede if I had said man the whole Christ I had perchance opened my head to this venew But now I am faster locked then that you can fasten anie blowes vpon mee with the best weapons in your armorie For seeing the worde of truth doeth call Christ a man so manie times I am perswaded it wil not proue so foule an errour to cal the whole man Christ except you can proue that some part of him was Christ and not the whole The testimonie of Athanasius to confute this errour toucheth not mee The conclusion out of Irenaeus though it might haue a favourable construction I leaue it amongst the judgements of men which you haue promised not to trust sect 3. HVME Sect. 12. NOwe let vs come to the great bulwark of your defense which you made choise of to raze the whole worke vpon I meane to bee the text of your sermon It is written in the first of Pet 3. That Christ was put to death in the flesh and was quickened in the spirit By the which spirit he went and preached to the spirites that are in prison and were disobedients in the dayes of Noah c Heere Beza whome we follow because he commeth nearest to the true sense of the Apostle by this word Spirit doth giue vs to vnderstand the Deity of Christ following Iohn who called God a Spirit and by this word flesh his māhood containing both his body and soule as hee findeth it vsed of Paule God was made manifest in the fleshe Which Antithesis of the divine and humane nature Paule doeth also expresse in the same wordes which was made of the seede of Dauid according to the fleshe and declared mightelie to bee the sonne of God according to the Spirit Where you see that he vseth the words no otherwise then he findeth them vsed in the Scriptures Now that this cānot be the sense of them you reason thus First say you this Participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth signifie some motion from some place can by no meanes agree with the diuine essence which beeing at one time in all places cānot at anie time leaue any place To this I answere that it is spoken of the same spirit in the 18. of Gen. I will go downe and see whether the Sodomites haue done according to the crie that is come vnto mee And in Exod. 3. I am come to deliuer them out of the hands of the Aegyptians You can not bee ignorant M. Hill that the spirit of God speketh so manie times of the Deity by a figure called Anthropopatheia when God doth declare his presence in one place more thē in another by some notable effect Which in this place was most necessary to note vnto vs the cōtinual presence of Christ in his church departing as it were from all other places which indeede hee cannot and sitting in it as it were a continual ruler and moderator therof Next you alledge the other participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is quickened that because it is a passiue it can not stand with the Deitie which cannot suffer at al. This we denie not For we attribute not this participle to the Deitie but to the whole Christ God and man Neither doth the text say that the spirit was quickned but that Christ was quickened in the Spirit Thirdlie you tel mee that mortified and quickened are contraries both attributed to Christ at once to note vnto vs that he was both dead and aliue at one instant Heere we confesse that they be attributed to one Christ but why they shold be referred to one time wee see no reason to induce vs to think it To this
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is spirits also is not as you take it for you say it signifieth the men in Noahs time but you can not bring one scripture to proue it Therfore I say as I said before it signifieth soules seperated from the body That my exposition is true I haue prooued by three Scriptures Ecles 12. 7. Heb. 12. 23 Act. 7 59. Now as mine is true so will I proue yours to be false impossible by Christs owne words Luke 24 59. where our Sauiour to proue himselfe to bee noe ghoste but to haue a true body after his resurrection thus reasoneth Behold my hands my feet that I am the same handle me for a spirit hath no flesh and bones as yee see me haue This was Christs argument I haue a body therefore I am not a spirit and so I reason against you and your teachers The men in Noahs time had bodies ergo they could not be called spirits Euery boy can tel you in Oxford that substantia is deuided into corpus and spiritum and that one of these opposite species can not be affirmed of another And therfore to be short when you can proue out of the new Testament that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is iournying is spoken figuratiuely of the deity or Pneuma that is spirit signifieth a man y â— hath a body I will giue you the goale but if you will runne on this course vntill you haue proued these 2. points which you must doo if you will haue me to recant then take heede least you run your selfe out of breath Lastly the word Phylake that is prison doth signify hel as it is to be sene Apoc. 20. 7. When a thousand yeeres shall be fulfilled Satan shall be losed out of his prison Thus thou seest good reader how I haue proued my interpretatioÌ„ out of the word of God for euery word which our aduersaries can not doo for their interpretation therfore thou maist safely assure thy self ours to be good and theirs to be false And that this word prison doth signify hell you may see Epiphanius Athanasius Fulgentins centuria 1. lib. 2. cap. 14. Peter Martyr on the Crede Nowell in his Catechisme Beacon in the sick mans salue Crowlev in his answer to the reasons of Pound the Papist All these old and new writers haue alleadged this Scripture as I haue done with good warrant and conscience Now that I haue proued this my owne interpretation I will by Gods grace proue your answere to be friuolous First you confesse that killed and quickned are Participles of one tense and yet you say they are not referred to Christ at one time this is meerlye false as I thus proue Christ was after his passion dead aliue or neuer if he were neuer dead and aliue at one time then Peter saith not truly if he were dead and aliue at on time then you speak falsely Now you your selfe confessed that he was dead and aliue at on time alittle before and proued it out of the 2. Cor. 13. 4. He was crucified concerning his infirmity yet liueth hee by the power of God Heere by your own woords Christ was aliue when he was crucified so may I say w t Pet. he was aliue when he was dead at one time Then you say the flesh signifieth the manhode and spirite the deitye this also is vntrue for the body may be killed but the soule can not Again shew me any Scripture where on and the sam word in on sentence and period is taken for diuers things for in this sentence In which spirite hee went and preached to the spirits that ar in prison Heer the word spirit in the beginning of the sentence signifieth the deity in the latter end the same woord signifieth the men that liued in Noahs time by your interpretation but by my interpretation it signifieth the soule seperate from the body in both places For as Cirill saith as Christ was with the liuing in body and soule so to shew himselfe a true man his body was among the dead bodies and his soule among the soules Then you auouch the preching of Noah is attributed to the whole Trinity be it so but can you proue that Christ after he was killed did prech in Noah for this preaching was after Chriâ—â—s death which is mentioned in the 18. verse and before his resurrection which is spoken of in the 21. verse You goe forward and tell mee that pote doth not determine the Participle apeithesasi that is disobedient but ekeryxen that is preached I must tell you plaine you speak neither like a Deuine nor a Gramarian For an Aduerb is some time put to a Participle as Math. 2. 7. Tote erodes lathra kalesas tous magous Then Herod calling priuilye the wise men Sometime to a Noune as homo egregie impudens Somtime to an Aduerb as parum honeste se gerit Therfore the Aduerb pote comming after apeithesasi next immediatly and being distinguished from ekeryxen by a Comma cannot by any example in diuinitye or by any rule of Grammer be coupled with the verb ekeryxen Now to answer your infallible reasons First your reason against me that if my construction bee true then nothing did happen to Christ which might not be verified of any man And did you not blush wheÌ„ you wrote these things Can any mans soule goe to hell and returne againe For his going downe to hell I proue in the 19. verse and his returning from hell in the 21. verse Secondly you say the word spirit doth signifie that which gaue life what then as God giueth life to the body effectually so the soule giueth life to the body formally Your Geueua translation which you follow saith hee was quickned in the spirite not of the spirit And this I note against your side en in the 18. verse you translate In But in the next verse as though you had not done well in the former you translate it by Now you know the preposition dia signifieth by and not en as it appereth in the 21. verse and in many places mo dia anastaseos that is by the resurrection Moreouer if you had said quickned of the spirite then had you made a probable answer but no diuine is able to proue this exposition that Christ was quickned in the spirit that is in the deity for the deity is life it selfe Your third pregnant reason is that thanatotheis signifieth not only the death of the body but also the whole passion of Christ This can not be for the suffrings of Christ are set downe before in the same verse then in this word thanatotheis is shewed the maner of the death that Christ suffered that is hee was killed and
from Cambridge their Reader countenanced with the authoritie of their convocation to confute that opinion which the english name of hel did make more popular and probable to the ignorant by the countenance of that famous and worthie Vniversitie Thus men may see how truely you challenge the Church of England to haue allowed your opinion alwaies your alwaies commeth short of all that time which you desired most to take your part for men of your livery if you may get autoritie on your side count your self otherwaies sufficiently armed As for me If I handle the scriptures deceitfully let not onely the Papists laugh at me but let al Christians spit at me if I reforme it not when I am convicted Howe strong my reasons are to cary this cause cleare through the midst of the aduersaries of it I hope the sequell will proue and I referre it to the advised judgment of the indifferent Reader I cannot tell how to frame irrefragable reasons to you There was a Prophecie as Curtius recordeth that hee who could vndoe the knottes of Gordius his chariot should be Emperour of Asia Alexander intending that conquest came to the temple where those knottes were kept to see if hee could open them But they beeing insoluble by mans reason hee tore all assunder with his sword So you serue my arguments be they never so irrefragable when you cannot open them with reason you teare them all assunder with violence As for my latine answere which I indeed did send you and you in trueth should haue answered me and not this wandring vagabound you haue had it these three yeares and more wherein were successiue houres ynough to answere two sheets of Paper if you haue not bin more busie about greater matters than you would haue the world to knowe In the meane time I haue pervsed this and put my friends in hope of good successe in the other when your long leasure will serue you to answere it Thus beseeching God to giue vs all one heart and one minde I end Yours in the Lord Alexander Hume THE STATE OF THIS QVESTION brieflie set down for the capacitie of such as are not able to carie the drift of all this discourse before them THe hebrevve vvord SHEOL vvhich the Greekes call hades the latines infernus and vvee hell hath three significations in the scriptures First and properlie it signifieth the graue or common condition of all the dead expressed in the greek hades by the priuation of light or lyfe Secondlie the place of tormentes appointed for the punishment of the vvicked for this the hebrevve vvord is least and our inglish vvorde most vsuall or rather as it is commonlie taken hardlie signifieth any thing els Thirdlie the torments of hel vvhich by a Metonymicall hyperbole for amplifications sake is manie times attributed to the sorrovves of this life These things are knovvn to al the learned And this D. confesseth them sect 4. See also sect 8. sect 9. and sect 14. Novve vvhere our beleefe hath that Christ descended into hell the question is vvhich of these three significations doth best fit that article of our faith We say that seing euery article of our faith must haue an vndouted sense confirmed by the Scriptures it must needs signifie the hellish torments that he suffered for our redemption or the darknesse of death vvhich svvallovved him the three daies that he vvas in the graue That these thingt are true and may be the true sense of that article our aduersaries cannot denie Yet not contented heerevvith they vvil sinke deeper and send Christs soule to the damned pit of hell neither to suffer himself nor to helpe 〈◊〉 that suffered there Novve because this is a thing that no man can avouch vpon his ovvne knovvledge but God himself We refuse to take their vvords vvithout his vvarrant Wherefore to mend this crooke they lay three teâ—â—s of Scripture in the presse The first is out of the 16. Psalme the second is out of the 3. chap. of the 1. Pet. the last vveakest out of the 4. to the Ephes But these proofes being doubtfull that is implying other plainer senses We denie them to be sufficient to make this doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith Our reason is no doubtfull proofes can make a doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith But these proofes be doubtfull Ergo these proofes cannot make this doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith That these profes be doubtfull the vvords drifts and circumstances offering other senses both plainer and better fitting the places and agreeable to the rest of the Scriptures vvill driue anie reasonable head to confesse Neither doeth diverse learned Papists denie it But this aduersarie more impudent then they blusheth not like a vvyer dravver to pull these Scriptures through narrovve holes to make them smal inough to tie our faith to his fantasie Moreouer vvith like violence hee is forced to break dovvn tvvo other vvalls that stands in his vvay The one is in the 23 of Luke ver 46. Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and the other in the 43. ver of the same cap. spoken to the theef This day shalt thou be with mee in Paradice By vvhich tvvo places it is cleare that Christs soule vvas then in heauen and not in Hell Vpon the true sense of these places riseth this disputation to vvhich I referre the discreet and indifferent Reader beseeching them to read vvith a single eie and iudge vvith an vpright hart Onelie I vvill lance an impostume of absurdities vvhich breeding in the bovvels of this opinion like the vvorme that breeds in the nut hath putrified all the probabilitie of it and made all men of indifferent iudgement in this age to caste it vnder the boord amongest the shreddes First that Christ went down to Hell to triumph contrarie to the nature of Hell which yeeldeth nothing but horrour and torments And contrarie to the nature of a triumph which was vsuallie solemnized amongst them to whom the joy of the victorie did appertaine Secondlie that Christs soule did preach in Hell contrarie to the nature of a soule that cannot preache and the condition of those hearers who could reap no profite of his sermon having their jugement alreadie Thirdlie that he did preach neither to convert the hearers nor to condempne them for the contempt of his word but to aggrauate their sorrowes Contrarie to the office of Christ which was to offer mercie to all his hearers Fourthlie that Christs soul did preach in Hel reallie not vocallie that is did preach in Hel and say nothing contrary to the nature of the word preach which neuer man did without voice words Fiftlie that Christ meaning to go to Hell as they say did notwithstanding commend his soule into the hands of God Contrarie to the true and common vse of these words vsed by Stephan Act. 7. and all other godlie men that craue to be iâ— heauen Sixtlie that his
words as I speak them HVMâ— his 5. Sect. BVt that hee neuer was there hee is too curious that will not stand content with Christes owne testimonies Father into thy handes I commend my spirit And in another place This day shalt thou bee with mee in Paradice And heere it is a world to see how men on your side labour to put out this candel First you say that this place Father into thy hands I commend my spirit is borrowed of Dauid and must bee taken in the same sense as Dauid vsed it before But you must consider when we vse other mens wordes either we cite them as testimonies or vsurpe them by imitation If we bring them in as witnesses wee may not alter their testimonie but if wee imitate them wee may without impeachmeÌ„t apply them to what sense best may beseeme our purpose In this place Christ citeth not Dauids wordes to testifie of his passion but imitateth Dauid in commending his soule into the handes of God Where you see that no necessity inforceth the same sense But be it so and I thinke it is so and that it maketh much against you For seing Dauids soule commeÌ„ded into the hands of God was neuer in Hell it will follow that Christes soule commended to the same protector was lykewise neuer there except you will ascribe lesse vertue to Christs prayers then to Dauids But Dauids soule say you went not streight way into heaven because he lived manie yeares after That he liued anie long time after if it were denied you will hardlie proue it But that maketh not to the question when Davids soule came into heauen But whether hee that commendeth his soule into the hands of God doth purpose that it shall descend into hell prooue that and you shall haue the goall As for Dauid he hauing deuoured heauen in hope doubted not if he liued anie long time after to speake that in the praesent time which he was well assured would come to pas And seeing Dauid was a figure of Christ and spake manie things in his owne person which aggree better with the person figured then with the figure these wordes may bee vnderstood as the casting of lottes on his garment and the digging of his hands and feet Wherefore if you will answere this place to the satisfaction of them that dissent from you you must bring proof that hee that meaneth to goe to Hell doth commend his soule into the handes of God or els you shall neuer bee able to darken the light of this Sunne with anie cloude of Sophistrie HILL his reply INdeed if these woords were spoken in the present time some shew of truth were in your words but in the Greeke they are in the future-tence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Father into thy hands I wil coÌ„mit my spirit Now your argument is this Christ commended his soule vnto his Father ergo immediatly he went not downe to hell Heere is more in your conclusion then is in your premises You may coâ—clud his soule went to heauen But not immediatly for it went to hell as I haue proued before for hell in the 16 Psalme doth not signifie the sorrowes of hell but the place as I haue confirmed already Therefore it is better to translate I wil commend then I do commend as Stephanus oâ— this place noteth Paule sayth Eph. 4. and 10. verse Now in that he ascended what is it but that he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth He that descended is euen the same that ascended farte aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Now if the same Christ did first desceÌ„d which did ascend then he descended in soule and body as he ascended in soule and body For both these must be effected in a wonderfull maner for they are reckoned by Salomon amongst the most stupendious works of the Sonne of God Proâ— 30. 4. Who hath ascended vp to heauen and descended who hath gathered the winde together in his fyst who hath established all the ends of the world By this scripture I iuferre that to ascend and descend are as miraculous works as to create and gouerne the world But if the soule of Christ did got to heaueÌ„ immediatly as you affirms contrary to this text then the descending of Christ had not bene so maruelous as his ascending Besides as you after alleage there is but one ascending but if Christs soule first went to heauen then his body then were there two ascensions But euen as Christ was but once borne and once dyed and once buried and once rose from the dead and but once commeth into iudgment so as Cyprian saith in his Sermon of the ascending of Christ Christ did once descend into hell they shall see God no more on the crosse nor they that are damned in hel Wherefore may it please you to accept the iudgement of Athanasius a Greke Father a man persecuted for the truthes sake by the Arrians he in his Creede saith thus who suffred for our saluation and descended into hell And interpreting the 1. Cor. 3. writeth Satan was enuious against our sauior for he killed him not knowing that it wold make against himself for Christ after his cros going down into hel hath vaÌ„quished death And becaus he knew no sin be could not be holde of deth Thus you see that not only Hill Augustine and Ierome doe say that Christ after hee had vttered these words into thy hands I will commend my spirit but Athanasius a Greek father who better then you vnderstood the meaning of these words Therefore it is a woÌ„der to see how those of your side labour to extinguish this everlasting light of Gods truth set vp a cousuming candle of your owne making Where you teach that Christs Soule did no more descend into hell then Dauids did therin you are deceaued For Christ was to deliuer vs from hell Dauid also wherefore if Christs soule had not gone to hell Dauids must and mine and yours And for this cause as you say they are true in Christ figured but not in Dauid the figure and herevpon Peter thus reasoneth that they could not be true in Dauid For Christ soule was in hel and yet not tormented his body in the graue but not corrupted wheras Dauids body saw corruption and if his soule had gone to hell it had found no redemption Therefore to be in graue and returne without corruption and to be in hell and returne with conquest of the diuell were two peculiar things to the Sonne of God not to any other of the sons of men And heere you vtter an other blasphemy that Christs soule had no other prerogatiue then Dauids soule for by the same reasone you may argue that Christs body had no greater prerogatiue then Dauids body for as this is false so
is the other For as Athanasius saith in his booke of the incarnation of the word Death Could not prevaile on the humaâ—e soule of Christ to tye him there neither corruption inâ—ading his body by â—iranny could shewe her force on him to putrefaction as things not well seene vnto for to thinke so of him were a wicked thing for even as Adam had a double punishement inflicted on him for his disobedience the on was on his body earth thou art and to earth thou shalt returne and so by this decree the body of the Lord departed vnto the earth but to the soule hee said Thou shalt dye the death Hereof it commeth to passe that man is deuided into 2. parts and is condemned to depart to 2. places and therefore it was necessary that the selfe same Iudge which had made this decree that hee by himselfe being vnder the colour of a condemned man shuld free from that sentence all beleuers Here you see by this learned Father that Christs soule went to Hell to deliuer our soules from hell and his body to the graue to deliuer vs from death by this means both body and soule personally and not potentially as you teach working our deliuerance from death and hell haue those prerogatiues which Dauids soule and body had not And for this coâ—sideration though the one was in the graue and the other in hell yet both were in the handes of the Lord. Heere then wee must learne what the hands of the Lord do signifie Sometime the hand of god doth signifie the Sonne of God Psal 144. 7. Send thy hand from aboue Sometime it signifieth the power of God Psalm 136. 12. With a mighty hand and outstretched arme Thirdly the bountifulnes of God Psal 145. Thou openest thy hand and fillest euery liuiug thing with thy blessing Foâ—rthly it signifieth consolation Ezec. 3. 22. The hand of the Lord was with me comforting me Fiftly grace Psal 118. 16. The right hand of the Lord â—ath done valiantly Sixtly it signifieth the gift of prophecie Ezec. 8. The hand of the Lord fel there vpon me Seuenthly mercy Psal 37. 24. Though he fall he shall not be cast off for the Lord putteth vnder his hand Eightly the protection of the Lord Psal 31. 15. My times are in thy hand Ninthly the aide of the Lord Psal 74. 11. Why withdrawest thou thy hand Tenthly the punishment of the Lord Iob. 19. 21. Haue pitie on me ô yee my frinds for the hande of the Lord hath touched me Lastly it signifieth the Gouernment of the Lord Psal 95. 4. In his hand at al the corners of the earth This place therefore must needes haue this construction into thy consolation mercie protection and gouernment I will commend my soule I hope you your selfe commende your soule into the handes of God euery day but yet you minde not to goe to heauen immediatly So saide Dauid Psal 30. 5. Into thy handes I commend my spirit but hee went not to heauen in manye yeares after neither did Christ ascende into heauen in many dayes after but went downe to hell where it was in the protection and gouerement of the Godhead which as you confesse descended into hell For as we being in the damned world are in the protection and hand of the highest so Christ being in the place of the damned after a wonderfull manner was also in the Lords aide and protection by meanes whereof he hath wrought our deliverance from hell Therfore proue you that Chirst went straitway to heauen and you shal effect that which many of your side haue attempted but neuer yet any coulde bring to passe It is written of Procustes that if any were too short for his bâ—â— he would not stretch theÌ„ out and make them fit for his lodging so you this place being too short to fit your wast will enlarge it with a word immediatly which is not the place primitiue or derivatiue expressely or by way of implication Moreouer where you say if I will answer this place I must proue that he that mindeth to go to hell doth vse these words I wonder that you dar vse such blasphemons speeches for hereby you insinuate that Christ was but a meere man that other men haue a part in the work of our redemption aswell as Christ For as he is our only Sauior so as Luth. saith on Gen 21. Chapter This was singular in Christ Thou shalt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption for this soule could not be deteined in hell nor his body in graue For as this was singular in Christ that hee did giue vp his ghost so was it singular in him to go to hell and returne again Ambrose saith Tradidit spiritum suum quia non inuitus amisit quod enim emittitur volunt arium est quod amittitur necessarium He gaue vp the ghost because hee lost not his soule against his will for that which is emited is voluntarie but that which is amitted is necessary Theophilact sayth hee cryed out with a loude voice and gaue vp the ghost for he had power to lay downe his life and take it vp again Now when you can proue that you or any of your side haue this power in you to dye when hee will and liue againe when hee will then will I prooue that hee that speaketh these words Into thy hands I commende my spirit hath an intent to goe to Hell But as Christ his birth was a singular thing in him so was his death buriall descending in to hel resurrection and assension into heauen Eccle. 8. 8. Man is not Lord ouer the spirite to retaine the spirit And Iohn 10. 18. Christ saith No man taketh my life from me but I lay it downe of my selfe I haue power to lay it downe and power to take it vp againe By these two places it is euident that no man can lay downe his owne spirite but the only sonne of God had that prerogatiue and therefore as the laying downe of his spirit and the taking vp of his spirit againe was wonderfull so was the state of the soule and body during the time of the seperation of the parts of the humanity singular and wonderfull Absurdities admitted in this sect by the D. First that Christ did descend in soule and bodie take it how he will is absurde If he meane into Hell taking Hel as he would haue it that is in soule onlie If into the graue it was in bodie onelie If into the wombe of the Virgine It was in Diuinitie onelie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Second If Christes soule had not gone to the locall Hell Dauids must and his and mine contrarie to the suffiencie of Christs sacrifice Third That Christes soule and bodie besides innocencie had other prerogatiues then Dauids had Contrarie to
the Scriptures that he was like vs in all things sinne onelie excepted HVME his reioynder INdeede say you if these wordes were spoken in the present time some shew of trueth were in our assertion Then if I can proue these words to be spoken in the praeseâ—â— time you will grant vs some shew of trueth which is more then commonly you vse to yeelde First you know that by a Hebraisme the future time may bee set for the present especiallye when continuance is signified Now that it must be so heere I hope this Syllogisme will perswade you That verb which signifieth an action presentlie done when it is spoken is of the present time But this verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth signifie an action then presentlie done when Christ vsed these wordes Ergo this verbe is of the present time The maior is a rule of Grammer from the definition of the present time of a verbe The minor is cleer of it self because Christ did then commend his soule into the hands of God when he vsed these wordes But if this will not satisfie you take this to proue that it cannot be the future time That action which can bee referred to no time to come cannot be the future time But this action cannot be referred to anie time to come because he presentlie gaue vp the ghost and men after death commend not their soules into the handes of God Ergo this action cannot be of the future time And now hauing taken all this paines to gaine nothing in your eies but a shewe of trueth I must put you in minde that though this verbe did pertaine to the future time yet your knot is in the wrong rushe For it is not the time when hee did commend but when his soule came into the handes of his Father that must helpe you if you could bee holpen And therefore you may whissel presentlie for anie future help that the future time of this verb can yeeld you to shew my judgement of this place all things both in heauen earth and hell be in the hands of God that is in his power to dispose of them as it seemeth meetest to his owne glorie But that cannot bee the sense heere because his soule was in that sense in the hands of God euen then when he did commend it The hand is the instrument of receauing in which we rake those things that we bring into our own peculiaritie and proper possession In that sort Anthropopathetcially those soules and spirits which stande in the presence of God are said to be in his hand Of which it is said in the Psalme In thy presence is the fulnesse of ioy and at thy right hand pleasures for euermore And so Christ being in the agonies of death and hel doth commend his soule into the handes of God to possesse a fulnesse of joy and aeternitie of pleasures Like to this is Stephans prayer Act. 7. Lord Iesus receiue my spirit Heere after your wonted guise you forme my argument as pleaseth you and then you tell mee it is false If it be false you made it such If the fault had not beene more in your skill or your will or both then in the matter you might haue made it inferiâ— No man that commendeth his soule into the hands of God meaneth to go to hell But Christ as man did commend his soule into the hands of God Ergo he ment not to go to Hel. And if he meant not I am perswaded hee went not If you had framed it thus there had beene no neede of Procustes with his racke nor of anie patche to make it fit our waste To the maior of this argument for lack of better mater you crie out blasphemie And then finding no blasphemy in the words themselues you tel me that they insinuate that Christ is but a meere man and that others haue part in the worke of our redemption Your insinuations are verie deepe But heere M. Doctor I will offer you a good bargaine Hooke me this insinuation on my propositioÌ„ in mood figure and I will neuer write more against you on this question And now I must needes note an especiall grace in your writing When the argument pincheth you you wring it with a crooked wrest and straining out some filthie licour that you your self had powred vpon it you call witnesses to shewe the worlde what filthie geare it is And so with manie testimonies in thinges that no man that hath one dramme of sense will denie you make vp a shamfull and importable booke Heere to proue that Christ is our onelie Saviour a thing not denied you bring in Luther Ambrose and Theophilact Neither apply you them to the purpose though the purpose be easier to proue then the things you apply them to But your wandering hand cannot beate on one Anvil And wheras I taking the vantage of your constructioÌ„ of these words whereon we stand Father into thy handes I commend my spirite thus proue that Christs soule went no more to Hell then Dauids If these wordes haue the same sense in Christs mouth as they had in Dauids Christ soule went no more to Hel then Dauids did But you say they haue the same sense Ergo. you let goe the maior and the minor and take vp your vsuall hubub against the conclusion exclayming and crying out blasphemie Then running about and seeking Athanasius in euerie corner to chide mee because I giue Christs soule and body no greater prerogatiue then Dauids you bring him in not saying one word to the purpose For he good-man knew right well that Christ was like to Dauid and vs all in all things sinne onlie excepted and therefore would not speak against his conscience As for the praerogatiue that you woulde haue him to haue to goe to hell it is so base a one if it was anie that if Bishoppricks were no better Doctors woulde not shoulder for them like beggers at a doall Whereas you argue that if Christs soule had not gone to Hel Dauids must and yours and mine if you meane the hel of the damned as you must if you speak to the purpose it is absurd For Christ redeemed vs on the Crosse where hee did beare the hellishe burden of our sâ—â—nes and not in hell where hee paied not one dram of our debt To set a wrong sense on this place you bring foorth a heap of handes inough almoste to remoue Cheviot hill to Charing Crosse Whereupon you conclude that the sense must needes be Into thy consolation mercie protection and gouernement I will commend my soule If that was his meaning why did he not commend his bodie also in the hands of his Father And why delaied he this praier till the storme of his miseries was blowne ouer If this conclusion did follow vpon the premisses it were a fault to confute it But nowe I hope vpon a pardon though I wipe it away with a Syllogisme Consolation pertayneth to the distressed mercie to the guiltie protection to the
to bee quickned is to bee deliuered from miseries Ingenuitie woulde haue confessed a fault You conclude with a confutatioÌ„ of the Antithesis between the divinity humanity but my reason is froÌ„ an Antithesis between mortified quickned flesh spirit which you by a corrupted glose taking quickned for a deliuerie froÌ„ miries did ouerthrow Yet because I said that Paul maketh that antithesis Rom. 1. It shal not be impertineÌ„t to view your reasons An Antithesis must be say you of things opposite and contrarie I add the Diuinitie and humanitie bee thinges opposite Ergo there may be an Antithesis of the Diuinity and the humanitie But they are vnited say you What then So be the flesh and the spirit and yet Christ saieth the Spirit is readie but the fleshe is weake A common Logician much more a Doctor should know that no vniting of thinges betweene which a difference may be obserued can let an Antithesis if occasion serue Notwithstanding the vniting a man may wel say Christ as hee was man was passible as hee was God he was impassible To these reasons I added more in my latine which I sent you The spirit heere doth signifie that which his enemies hell death could not touch according to the text he was quickened in the spirit But his humane soule escaped not the violence of his enemies Ergo the word spirit heere doth not signifie his humane soule To this you make no answere The seaventh was This spirit of which he speaketh heere did preach But the humane soule cannot preach Ergo the spirit heere is not the humane soule To this you answere that he preached not vocallie but reallie that is not in words but in deeds A dumb man may preach so as well as D. Hill If you stand 7. dayes in the pulpit of the great Church at Sarum and say nothing there bee not 7. men within 700. myles that wil commend your sermon The eight was Whosoeuer doth preach he doth it either to amend the enormities of the hearers or to instruct them in the waye of saluation But this was not to be hoped for in damned spirits Ergo hee preached not in Hell to damned spirits Heere you answere that he preached to reproue them of their infidelitie but you fall still in one ditch He that reproueth infidelitie doeth it either to mend it or to take away excuses But there was no such hope in these that were past all remedie and excuse The ninth was This preaching was when the disobedience of the hearers was reforme-able But this was onelie reforme-able in the dayes of Noah Ergo this preaching was not but in the daies of Noah This hath no answere The tenth was from the circumstances of the text and necessarie Analysis thereof Which I remitted to Beza who hath done that better then I can and whose notes it is not likelie that you want hauing such a Librarie as you speake of sect 7. You in the margent will mee to read Aretius and Alesius The one I haue read and the other cannot moue mee though hee be my countrie-man I haue learned to preferre truth before men what euer they be These were my reasons which I joined to the lawfull vse of the words proved by Iohn Paul and Peter In them so ouer-smoked is your sense you smell no reason at all But tell your reader that we cannot proue ouâ— interpretations by the Scriptures as you do yours and yet you bring nothing for your owne but that the words may bee so taken and a fewe sillie conjectures answered before by mee Nowe having set downe mine let mee see howe stoutlie you haue defended yours THe first was Poreutheis that is went doth signifie motion from one place to another But the Deitie cannot moue from anie place being at al times in all places Ergo poreutheis is not attributed to the Deitie To the minor of this argument I aunswered out of the 18. of Genesis and 3. of Exodus That the God-head is saide to mooue from place to place by a figure called Anthropopatheia You reply that the bookes that I cite are written in Hebrewe And that the interpreters doe translate that hebrew word by katabainein or erchesthai and not porâ—uesthaâ— As if the Hebrewe tongue which is called lingua sancta were fitter to speak improperly of God then the Greeke or that poreuesthai had gotten some speciall licence more then anie other verbs of motion to be free from that figure Yet if it will please you to read Exod. 13. 2. Nomb. 14. 14. Deut. 1. 33. Exod. 33. 3. Psal 132. 8. Deut. 31. 3. Psal 71. 12. Psal 88. 7. and infinite such places more you shall find that plakket deere of a naked q. without a cap. But suppose that I could not finde it attributed to the Deitie in all these Scriptures yet you were not the nearer your marke For if you bee remembred your reason was in Chippenham that poreuesthai cannot bee giuen to the Deitie because it is a verb of motion Now the maior of your syllogism must be that no verb of motion can bee attributed to the Deitie Which maior being crased by my first answere and the examples there alledged There is no reason left you why poreuesthai cannot be attributed to the Deitie as wel as erchesthai or katabainein and no reason you knowe is too weake against ten such stout reasons as I haue sent you forcing this sense vpon this place Your next argument was from the participle quickned thus No passiue can agree with the Deitie Quickned is a passiue Ergo it cannot agree with the Deitie This syllogism I granted to be good and told you withall that wee doe not attribute this Participle to the Deitie but to the whole Christ by participation of proprieties following the text which saith not that the flesh was mortified and the spirit quickned but that Christ was mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirite This answere you stroke off your skore Your third argument was from the tense or time 〈…〉 bee attributed to Christ at one time they note that hee was deade and aliue at one time But the first is true Ergo the last is true To this I answere denying the maior That participles or verbs of one time attributed to one thing muste needes pertaine to one time In the beleef wee say that Christ was crucified dead and buried where crucified dead buried be all of one tense or time yet agree not all to Christ at one instance of time To this you reply that they muste pertaine to one time and proue your maior thus Christ was after his passion dead or aliue at on time or else neuer If he were neuer dead and aliue at one time S. Peter speaketh not trulie If hee were dead and aliue at one time then I speake falselie In this Syllogisme is neither mood nor
figure and besides that it standeth on a begging of the question That Peter saieth hee was at one time deade and aliue is the question and you take that as if it were granted Your fourth reason was If Peter saith that the flesh was dead and the Spirit quickened then doeth hee shew that he was both dead and aliue at one time But the first is true Ergo the last is not false The minor of this Syllogisme I did denie shewing that it is flat against the text which saieth not that the fleshe was dead and the spirit quickened But that Christ was dead in the flesh and quickned in the spirit This reason it pleaseth you of your courtesie to send away in secrete without a God be with you Your fifth reason was The Scripture doth join this going preaching cloase to his passion as if it wold say As soone as hee had suffered hee went and preached I answered you that as and if did carie too weake a consequence in so waightie a matter This asse sadled with an if 〈…〉 Your sixt reason was out of the 6. of Genes That the preaching of Noah is there attributed to the third person of the Deitie and not to the second The words of that text bee The Lord said My spirit shall not alwaies striue with man because hee is but fleshe Which wordes I answered you in the Latine that I sent you that I neuer sawe anie interpreters that doe consent with you in this exposition and interprete these words of the third person of the Deitie Tremelius and Iunius their judgement I set down as that I liked best who take these words to be a Hebraisme sounding as if he had said I wil not alwaies stand disputing with my selfe what to do with these men which yeeld no frutes but of flesh blood for nowe I am determined except they repent to destroy them at the day appointed Notwithstanding granting you that it were as you would haue it I tolde you seeing the actions of euery person of the Deitie are common to all three hee erreth not that giueth them to anie of the three This you confesse to be true But you ask me if I can proue that Christ preached in Noah after his passion affirming confidentlie that this was attributed to him of Peter after the passion It were requisite that you had good proof according to the waight of this case and your confidence in speaking it But I will ease you of that burden Proue it out of the text with anie reasonable shew of truth and you shall haue my hart and hand The order of the wordes which you stand so stoutlie vpon is not so strict as you would haue it For the purpose and drift of the Apostle heere is to perswade vs to patience by the example of our Saviour and not to set out his death descending and resurrection in order as they were done but obiter as they fall in hand and followe the matter that heere he driveth to perswade Your seauenth reason was if Christ was raised from the dead by the first person of the Deitie and not by the second then the word spirit heere cānot be construed of the Deitie but Christ was raised by the first person and not by the second Ergo c. I might well haue tolde you that this minor is absurde and flat against the plaine text Ioh. 5. 21. Whatsoeuer thing the Father doth the same the sonne doeth also with him And Ioh. 10. 18. which wordes I did quote not farre before in the defence of my second reason I haue power to lay downe my life and I haue power to take it vp again But then sparing you and refraining all hard speeches how euer they were due I onelie tolde you that I sawe not howe that could stand with the trueth of the Scriptures which telleth mee that the second person did put on man and did not forsake him in all his distresses You reply in the margent of your written copy see contrarie to this Act 4. 40 Act. 13. 30. 1. Cor. 15. 15. Which places I haue marked obserued to make nothing against my assertion In them the raising vp of christ is attributed to the God-head which worketh not as I haue noted alreadie one person without another Which thing if it bee an errour it was Iohn that seduced mee cap. 5. 7. The Father worketh and I work As the Father doth raise vp the deade so the sonne likewise doth raise vp whome he will And in the 17. verse quoted a little aboue The same is agreable to other infinite places of Scripture and the somme of our Faith called the beleef which saieth the third day hee rose againe and not that hee was raised againe Your eight reason was If the time that they were preached to and of their disobedience was not one then this preaching is not to bee vnderstood of Noah his preaching in the time of their disobedience But the adverbe pote doth distinguish those times Ergo c. To this I answere that the Adverb pote doth not determine the participle apeithesasi but the principall verbe ekeryxen You replie that I speak neither like a Divine nor like a Grammarian To proue me no divine which indeede I am not and no Grammarian which I am but little you alledge no Diuinitie and little grammer It will not followe that because it may stand with a Participle therefore it is so heere or that because it is distinguished from the verb with a comma therefore it cannot determine it at all You are not ouer-loden with Grammar if you knowe not that diuerse and manie reasons may part wordes depending one on the other by a comma And as for this place pote if it did depend as you would haue it vpon apeithesasi it cannot bee distinguished from ekeryxen with a comma seing apeithesasi it self is gouerned of ekeryxen without commixture of anie interjected member to parte them What euer your book hath take heed that it be not a stain to your skill in grammar to credite a book in such a case Your ninth argument was Noah preched to men These were spirits not men Ergo Noah preached not to these I answered that whosoeuer preacheth to men preacheth to spirites because no men want spirits that is reasonable soules And now I ad that they are heer called Spirits in respect of their imprisonment not in respect of his preaching If hee had called them men then the name of prison wherein they are now datained had beene improper The Apostle wiselie choosed that worde which might best agree with both those times Bezaes opinion also whereto Andradius the Papist agreeth is most probable that pote doth determine the same Participle apeithesasi and doeth distinguish it from tois en phylake pneumasi which must needs be vnderstood in the present time by vertue of the
heer your malice driving you to imagine much absurditie in our opinion doeth deceaue you For wee holde and will die for it that Christ in his owne person bodie and soule did descend into all the torments that hel could yeelde And this indeede is a true descending into Hell For the nature and name of Hell doth yeeld nothing but horrour terror treÌ„bling and torments But in your opinion we must imagine all things contrarie Not torments but triumph nor sorrowes but solace not shame and ignominie but honour and glory Hell doeth yeelde no such frutes nor the descending into hell can bee to no such ende Take therefore your potentiall decending into Hell and the conquest thereof by the onlie power of the Deitie and buy a benefice with it Whereas you say that our opinion doeth open a gap to manie errors you pretend a feare without grouÌ„d to make the Reader affraied of the moone-shade It is the manner of politick men that would faine hinder a thing that reason doeth further to set feare of sequels against the force of known reason Heer you flee to that shift though you know that amongest al the writers that haue embraced this opinion which be manie of great name not one yet can be tainted with one error growing in this fountaine In this section you hamper about another argument but cannot hit the marke Wherefore to saue your labour I will heere make it vp and breake the point of it when I haue done that you may see it cannot â—urt vs. It is this There is greater reason that Christ should haue beene held three daies of Hell without paine then three daies of the graue without corruption But hee was three dayes in the graue without corruption Ergo he was farre rather thre daies in Hell without paine Because it is not likelie that the weaker did fasten faster on him then the stronger beeing as far inferiour in malice as it is lesse in power To this I answere that there is not the like reason much lesse greater reason For hee lay three dayes in the graue to confirme our knowledge and to extinguishe all doubt of his death Secondlie to lay a grounded beleef in our hearts of the resurrection For he was the first frutes of the dead Thirdlie to make his resurrection more glorious For the loÌ„ger he was held in the bandes of death the greater glorie it was to breake them gathering strength by continuance Lastlie to take all blockes out of the path of faith that wee might walke in it more surelie without stumbling I knowe no such reasons why he should haue descended into the very place of hell being so farre remooued from our senses as we could receiue neither knowledge nor comfort therby Now whereas you take mee vp for saying that the world is sorrie for you my wordes might haue had a tollerable construction if you had cast an eie to Christs words in Iohn God so loued the worlde that hee gaue his onelie begotten Sonne for it or if you had lookt in my latine you should haue found my wordes lesse subject to violence Pij omnes dolent that is al the godlie are sorie sounding much to the same sense But you loue not the world you say nor the world loues not you I think you speake truelie iiij or v. benefices to them that you haue wold serue the turne to maintaine your skarlet hood and half a dosen of tall fellowes in tawnie coates to defend that with the sword which you cannot with the pen that is but a peece of the world But you loue not the world because it is not so liberall nor the world loues not you so becaus you haue more charges already theÌ„ you haue tongues to teach You coÌ„clude that I beeing a stranger muste not bee periergos and that Si pergam dicere quae volo audiam quae nolo These arguments were better in Queen Maries fierie daies for D. Storie then they are now in the calmes of Elizabeth for D. Hill You slander the learned convocation of the land and wrong good M. Nowell who as I heare disclaimeth your opinion As for mee I am a Christian and therefore no stranger in the Church of Christ I will not speake against my conscience for all the counsels and convocations in the world and all the Doctors in both the Vniuersisities if they were my aduersaries But God bee thanked it is not so I began with you in secrete you haue made it common Wherefore you are periergâ—s and not I. HIL his conclusion to M. Hume MAister Hume in the latter end of your answere you request mee to recant if your answere did please mee as it doth you I would be as willing to recant as you and your freends would be glade to heare it But I will plainelie set downe my reasons why I doe not recant The first is I alledged Act. 2 and proued out of Peters sermon my assertion and to the reasons I drew out of that place you haue answered nothing Secondlie I alledged Syra 17. 21. To proue that this phrase the nethermost parts of the earth doth signifie hell to this you haue in like manner saide nothing Thirdlie in all your answeres to my allegations you haue disagreed with the word of God In answering of the 16. Psal you say my allegation is to be vnderstood of the passion of Christ And Peter Act. 2. saith it is spoken of the resurrection whether is to bee beleeued of Peter or you I referre it to the indifferent Reader Then I proued that ERETS TACHTITH that is the nethermost partes of the earth did signifie hell out of the 63. Psalm and 9. verse In answering of this you dissent from David and M. Calvine Now whether it be more safe to sollowe Dauid or you let mine enemies iudge I alleadged Ezechiel to proue that point also 31. chapter 5. 16. 17. 18. 19. In answering to that place you haue gain-saide â—zechiel Esay in his 14. chapter Lavaterus Munster and Pellicane Now whether it be more fit for mee to beleeue you or Esay or Ezechiel let your owne favorites iudge Then I alleadged the known place of Peter you travailed much about this place yet in your interpretation of this word pneumasi that is spirits which you interprete the soules of the men that liued in Noahs time you contradict the words of our Saviour Luk 24 39. For Christ saieth a Spirit hath not fleshe and bones as you see me haue And yet you and your Maisters â—ay that this word spirit may signifie a maÌ„ living Now whether it bee more expedient for mee to beleeue you or Christ I referre it to your owne iudgement You â—aid my Sermon at Chippenhame did confirme you and your frends but I hope your owne answeres will not confute mee but your selfe and cause your self and them both to recanâ— you say you seeke to know he truth so do I as knoweth the knower of all hearts wherefore whether you or I
licet hoc certitudo est eum aliquot spiritibus praedicasse sed quot quibus videbimus in aeterna vita Here this man demeth that which he supposeth to be spoken heere to haue any other warrant in the word that it is not knowne to what spirits he preached contrary to our Doctor Pelicanus on this place Per spiritum intelligo spiritum sanctum datum Apostolis die Pentecostes per carcerem errores Idâ—lolatrias Gentium Iudaeorum Our Doctor by sâ—irit vnderstandeth the humaâ—e soule of Christ by the prison hell This man one of his owne authors vnderstandeth by spirit the holy Ghost and by the prison the errours wherein the soules of the Iewes and Gentiles were captâ—ued Thus thou maist see gentle Reader that these three places on vvhich M. Doctor buildeth his opinion his ovvne authors do interpret them some as vve do and some othervvaies than he himselfe can allovve vvherefore thou maiest vvell think that this is a vveake foundation to build thy faith vpon Novve I vvill note to thee hovve his ovvne authors that he calles his ovvne I meane do dissent from him and one from another on the very article it selfe First all his old vvriters send Christ to hel to deliuer the fathers and he to the hell of the damned vvhere the fathers never vvere and there fore no more of them Erasmus in Catechesi saith Ipsa inconcinnitas sermonis aâ—guit ab also quopâ—am intertextum Emblema paulo post An Thomas Aquinas addiderit subdubito Heere hee doubteth of the Artiâ—le it selfe and supposeth Thomas Aquinas to haue inserted it Et postea vetustissimi patres magna religione cavebant ne quid asseverarent duntaxatin symbolo quod non esset evidenter sacris literis vtriusque testamenti expressum Tales sunt omnes articuli hoc vno excepto Heere he denies it meaning the common sense of it to haue any sufficient warrant in the word Afterward gathering all the places of scripture that are alleadged by writers to confirme it he concludes Nihil istorum est quod tergiversatorem cogat credere Christi animam per se descendisse ad tartarum And againe in his multa sunt quae nihil habent ponderis sed nullum est quod non vel allegoriae nebulo sit obscuruâ— vel variam accipiat interpretationem Heere he denies the sufficiencie of all thâ— scriptures that this man and all that went before him alledgeth and yet this is one of his owne authâ—urs Petrus Martyr in symbolo saith Quantum ad animam ipsam attinet statim atque ex corpore excessit non mansit otiâ—sa sed descendit ad inseros quod nihil aliud indicat nisi quod eundem subijt statum quem reliquae animae à corpore sejunctae experiuntur Heere this man saith that to descend into hell is nothing else but to enter into that same state that other souls do when they are departed from the body which our Doctor denies and yet this is one of his Authors Felmus on the 16. Psalme saith Non est in Davide adimpletum quod hic canitur Anima enim ejus tandem ad inferos descendit vidit caro ejus foveam Heere this man taketh the name of hell for the common condition of al the dead which our Doctor denies yet this is one of his Authours Pomeranus on the 16. Psalme having expounded the name sheol of the state of the dead as I haue quoted before concludes Atque hic habes articulum illum fidei with many more wordes prooving that Christ hath wrought our deliverance by his death and not by descending into the hell of the damned And yet this is one of Master Doctors best Authours Westmerus in tropis in voce infernus pag. 832. saith Ad infernum descendere nihil aliud est quam pessum ire c. And after in the same page and page 833. ad infernum descendere est corpus sub terra recondi vnde cum Christus descendisse ad inferos adseritur in symbolo vere mortuus sepultus esse intelligitur Heere this man saith that Christs descending into hell is mâ—ant but of hic death and burial And yet this is one of M Doctors authours Luther and Latimer holdâ— that Christ suffered in hell the torments of hel as I haue quoted alreadie This our Doctor denies and yet these be two of his Authours Hipperius in his Catechisme gathering the summe of this part of our faith thus saith Primo dignatus est Christus se nostri causa humiliare nostram assumens naturam per omnia si excipiamus peccatum par nobis factus secundo pro nostris peccatis expiandis maximos cruciatus pertulit mortem ignominiosissimam Tertio quo donaremur iustitia à morte resurrexit quibus peractis pristinam accepit gloriam ascendit ad coelos Here this man shouldereth it quite out of his creed and yet this is one of Maister Doctorâ— Authours Lossius on the 16. Psalme saith Descendit ad inferos totus Christus sive filius Dei sicut idem conceptus est de spiritu sancto natus ex Maria Virgine crucifixus mâ—rtuus sepultus Hemingius in his Catechisme hath the like Christus descendit ad inferos vtrum anima an corpore scriptura non dicit sed Symbolum videtur innuere totum Christum descendisse Heere these two men say that Christ descended into hell body and soull our Doctor denies it and yet these be two of his Authours Vrbanus Rhegius in Catechismo saith Secundum animam descendit ad inferna ad pias animas Adami Noahi Lothi c. Heere this man saith that hee went into hell to the holy soules of Adam Noah and Loth. our Doctor saith they were not there and yet this is one of his Authours Aepinus on the 16. Psalme saith Quod autem Christus latronâ— dixit hodie eris mecum in Paradiso non abrogat fidem huic dogmati de descensu Christi ad inferos quia paradisus illa de qua loquitur Christus eo tempore apud inferos fuit nunc autem apud superoâ—â—â— coelâ— est Heere this man saith that Paradise was in hell before the comming of Christ our doctor saith no and yet this is one of his best Authours Lavaterus on Ezech 31. 18. saith hades apud Graecos generale vocabulum est tormentorum quietis This man saith and saith it trulie that the greeke name of hell is a common name both to the place of the torments of the wicked and the joyes of the faithfull our Doctor denies that and yet this is one of his cheefe Authours Alesius on the 19. of Iohn vpon these wordes Exiuit in locum qui Caluaria dicitur orationem repetit luciani presbiteri Antiocheni vbi haec habet Adhibebo vobis loci ipsius testimonium adstipulatur his ipse in Hyerosolimis locus Golgothana rupes sub patibuli onere disâ—â—pta Antrum quoque illud quod avulsis inferni Ianuis corpus
That must bee one whosoeuer be the other 328 A degree is an ascense from one step to another His conversing on the earth was no ascense and therfore no degree at all 329 This degree in the aire was not a step of his glorie for he neither fastned his seete nor made any abode there 330 You say much and prooue little 331 One ascension hath but one beginning calaed terminus a quo 332 That pertaineth to his burial not the descending that Paule speaketh of in this place 333 Not but such eies as yours 334 Patitio principij that is the place we stand vpon It maketh nothing for you except we will grant you your will without reason One motion hath but one beginning one ending Of contrarie motions if the mouer be one the beginning of the one is the end of the other and contrariwise the end of the one is the beginning of the other The paralogisâ—nes of this sect 335 That note is against your self read and see 336 That note sheweth this place to be spoken of them that giueth bread to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie c. 337 The verse you referre vs to in Math. speaketh of the mercifull not of the wicked 338 You are much deceaued 339 What synode is that I was neuer of anie synode nor worthie to rule a synode 340 Vntruth see the aunswere 341 Wordes 342 It is trew of all parts y â— can consiste after separatioÌ„ 343 But if you will proue the thing you vndertake to proue you must proue that wher the soule is not the maÌ„ is not 344 That followes not 345 Heer M. D. will correct magnificat It is in the English Bibles I am not yet ascended and that he thinks not to be of the praeter-perfect tense and therefore he mends it I haue not c. This had ben well found of a boy in his accidents but a D. shuld haue knowne that amatus sum is the preter-perfect time as well as amatus fui 346 I know no man saith so 347 Nor that and therfore these two are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 348 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 349 You had need of a cable to binde this therefore to the premisâ—es 350 It will not follow see the answere 351 I brought examples of my own general maximes I dallied not with your argumeÌ„t 352 I neuer thought it see the answere 353 It will neuer follow by this reason 354 That is a foule name 355 As good Logicians as D. Hill Ramus and al his followers thinke the soule to be an integrall parte Partes integrisunt partes integrales anima corpus sunt partes integri scili cet hominis Er go anima corpus sunt par â—es integrales hominis 356 I know nor what you mean by a divisible part If a part that may consist being deuided from the whole I hope you will confesse the soule to be such 357 This is a new terme of arte 358 Not so see the answere 359 No errour at all see the aunswere 360 The man alone you would say 361 This proof needed not 362 If you could follow the question all the proofes in this section should bend to make your assertion good that this saying of Christ to Marie Ioh. 20. doth proue that his soule had not beene in heauen when he was risen againe 363 Parergon 364 By this it appeareth that Irenaeus speakerh not of the hell of the damned but of the state of the dead Heer I follow Ramus 365 Such a word out of your mouth might haue lifted vp my hart if you had not said section the 7. that I wanted either science or conscience or both Howsoeuer your wordes agree I hope I was the same wheÌ„ you wrot that when you wrote this 366 Then I will tell you the same that all Christians haue to know God defend his truth The Paralogismes in the D. reply 367 If my coÌ„mission be warrantable this hope may hoppe 368 Heere you promise to proue 369 And heere you fall to confute so soone you haue forgot your self 370 You alter the conclusion I said that the Scriptures neuer giueth death to Christ but for his whole passion which thing you should confute if you could answere mee 371 Still you change the question though quickned went necessarilie before his resurrection I neuer said that it signifieth it 372 I brought reason for the things I said and you answere al with that cannot be 373 See the answere in the rejoynder 374 If you can proue that Peter said so I will proue that he was like an Irish man that comming out of a battell boasted that hee had killed fiue men in the feet that wanted the heads before he came at them 375 What then 376 Is there no thing els to apply these things to or is no repetition tollerable 377 How doth this for proue anie of these things that you haue said 378 Betwene these two * markes ther is a most disâ—rdeâ—ed hyperbalon of manie wordes not two lines together directed to one purpose 379 Peter sheweth not 380 This is foisted in the text 381 That proâ—veth not that spirit is the soule heere 382 You beg the question 383 He suffered the death of both You leaue the word of the text mortified and choses a word that taketh away the duble death which he suffered this is pelting with the text 384 True but who saith so 385 And wer all the soules separated from their bodies in the hell of the damned that he could not bee amongst such soules but in hell 386 Truelie I see it not 387 I see not that neither 388 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 implyerh the Participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cannot stand without it Wherfore if you had cast an eie that way you would haue translated it that nowe are in prison 389 You dream we translat it not by the which 390 And you did you wold lose your labour 391 You said thâ—t no verb of motion could be giveÌ„ to the Deitie fol. 11 pag. 2. That I hope you are gone from Now you haue no reason why this word caÌ„not pertaine to the Deitie but because it cannot pertaine to the Deitie which is as if a man would fay D. H. could not get a Bishoprick because D. H. coulde not get a Bishopricke 392 That is not of necessitie neither 393 Are they the fitter for that to speak improperlie of God 394 Why maÌ„ is the old testament Apocrypha with you you are a nice man 395 Katabaino and erchomaâ— be verbs of moâ—ioÌ„ as well as poreuomai 396 Eltho I neuer red nor you neither in the present tense 397 How can this place proue that Iohn translateth not IARAD heere 398. Eleutho is out of vse You shame your self 399 This place proueth your translating of IARAD as the other doth And heere you may mark that erchesâ—ai is spoken of the manhoodas well as poreuesthai and so by your reason erchesthai
prooue with witnesses But in one thing you seeme farre heere to ouer-shoot your selfe Your mates reason against vs that the pangs of Hell which went before the buriall cannot bee ment by these wordes following it You open your owne side to that blowe and put the discending into the locall Hell before his buriall also and make that argument stronger against your self then you finde it against vs. Thus you see al this great winde is ouerblowne and shakes no corne HVME his 8. Sect. HEere to let this passe your next reason is from that place of Paul But that he ascended what is it els but that he first descended into the lowermost parts of the earth Where you holde that the lowermost partes of the earth muste needes signifie the pit of Hell Which thing if it were so sure as you beare in hand I wonder that no Diuines I speake of the modester sorte did yet gather heereupon that the place of Hell were the verie center of the earth But wheras you avouche so confidentlie that ERETS TACHTITH doth signifie Hel as properlie in Hebrew as hel doth in English though I meane not to stand with you for the tongue yet pardon mee to dissent from you in this For in the places which you quote it can not in my simple vnderstanding carie that sense Your first place is They which seek my soule shall go down into the lowermost partes of the earth which cannot bee meant of Hell except these reasons deceaue mee First it might seeme a presumption to enter so farre into Gods secrets as to judge his owne priuate enemies Next it should seeme not to stand with the affections of a godlie heart to ascribe that place to his enemies out of the horrour wherof there is no redemption For the children of God do rather pray for their enemies desire their amendement This place may be wel construed of the graue For it is an argument vsed by the Prophete to lay the pride of them that sought his soule and to solace himself recording that their hatred should haue an end wheÌ„ the graue should swallow them The wordes â—ollowing confirme this sense That they shall fal vpon the edge of the sword which cannot be vnderstood but of temporall death HIL his reply INdeed I brought this place Eph. 4. 9. to proue that Christ descended into Hell And whereas you charge me with immodesty for so alleadging of it I must needs charge you with two vntruths in answering this allegatioÌ„ The one is y â— I called it the pit of Hel which phraise I neuer vsed The other is you haue impudently aâ—ouched that none of the modester sorte of diuines haue euer alleadged this place to proue the descending of Christ into â—el 223 For many and those both learned and modest haue alledged this place to this purpose Athanasius interpreting this Epistle and texte thus writeth Into what place did he desceÌ„d Into hel truly which he calleth according to the coÌ„mon opinioÌ„ of men the lowest parts of the earth Ambrose on this place saith thus This Christ therefore comming downe from heauen into the earth was borne a man afterward he dyed and descended into hell from whence rising the third day he went vp to heauen before all mortall men that hee might shewe deth to be vanquished to every creature Chrisostome on this place saith Hee went to those partes of the earth then the which nothing is lower and from thence lies ascended into heauen then the which nothing is higher The like hath Augustine li. de Trin. chap. 19. Ieromâ— on this text thus noteth That Hell is vnder the earth noe man doubteth for he that descended in soule into hell asceÌ„ded both body soule into heaueÌ„ Mollerus a learned Minister of Germany on the sixtene Psalme saith that the descending into hel is plainly proued out of the Ephesians the fourth chapter Musculus on the 68. Psalm thus writeth This God which was in Christ reconciling the world vnto himself first descended into the lowest partes of the earth then he lead captuitie captiue and not only we ar deliuered from the captuity of Satan sinne death and damnation but also Christ triumphing ouer them aâ—tirants hath ascended aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Hemingius on the 2. Chapter to the Colossians thus also teacheth As by his deathe he conflicted with the enemye one the crosse so by his glorious descending into hell resâ—â—â—â—ection and Ascention he triumphed as it is Ephe 4. Leauing his cros lift vp as a monumeÌ„t of his victory To conclud Alesius a very learned preacher of Scotland on the 19. chapter of Iohn affirmeth that the 1. Pet. 3. Eph. 4. do manifestly proue the descending of Christ into hell if Athanasius Chrysostome Ambrose Augustine and Ierome of the old fathers and Mollerus Musculus Hemingius and Alesius of the new writers be all immodest diuines then haue you truelye saide but if in the iudgement of the learned all these were most reuerend men then most shameles are you to accuse them of the want of modesty More ouer where you say no diuine dare to dispute where hell is it is true in some sort for no diuine can 252 circumscribe the place of hel which is infinite nor yet of heauen only the word of God affirmeth that heauen is aboue Gal. 4. 26. And hell is beneath Prouerbs 15. 24. Therefore the lowest parts of the earth may well be taken for hel Then you goe further say that ERETS TAGHTITH doth not signifie hell Psal 63. and for this you bring two reasons the one is y â— it were a presumption in the Prophet to iudge his enemies 2. that it standeth not with the affections of a godly minde to assign hell to his enemies but to pray for them to your first reason this I answer In the Psalm 9. 18. Dauid useth the like speeche The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the people that forget God which text Caluin thus expoundeth the Hebrewe word SHEOLâ—â— which was doubtfull I haue not doubted to translate hell for though it doth not displease me that others 〈◊〉 it Sepulcher yet it is sure heer is som thing noted besides common death otherwise he should speak nothing of the reprobate but that which did generally happen to al beleuers In the hundred and â—inth Psalme also Dauid thus praieth Let Satan stand at his right hand let his prayer be turned into sinne let the wickednes of his Father be had in remembrance in the sight of the Lord and let not the sinne of his mother be done away **** Do you think this to bee spoken presâ—â—tuously Many such texts could 〈◊〉 alleadge to proue that Dauid inspired with the spirit of prophecye did foretel not only of the tragicall destruction of the bodies of his
enemies but also of the extreme daÌ„natioÌ„ of their soules This theÌ„ is my reply â—o your second reason these enemies were not priuate enemies but publick and did hate Dauid for his religion sake Dauid therefore by the gift of prophecie doth foretell that their soules should go to hell to be tormented and their bodies should be the portion of soxes that is shold never come to the graue for what need 163 Dauid tell vs they should by which we know is commoÌ„ to al or how can that be true which you say that they should bee in graue when Dauid himself saith they were not in any graue but were the protion of Foxes And so M. Caluin whom I hope you will beleeue teacheth you writing vpon this psalme and verse To be the portion of Foxes is as much as to be devoured and torn of wicked beasts for God saith Cal. doth threaten his punishement to the reprobate that they shall bee a pray to Wolues dogges because hee would depriue them of the honor of their graue Heer you see M. Caluin saith they cam not into their graue you say they did How M. Caluin and you may be reconciled I knowe not for Caluin addeth this reason It hapneth some time that we know the same temporall punishments to be common to the good and the bad but this is the difference the bones of the godlie are gathered together and kept in safty that none of them shall perish but the scattering of the bones of the reprobate is a signe of eternall destruction Therefore howe can the lower parts of the earth signifie the graue as you say since as M. Calvine truâ—ie saith they were in no graue Answere mee this good M. Hume plainelie Psal 63. 9. The lower partes of the earth signifie not the graue but hell Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth Eph. 4. 9. â—rgo Christ descended into hell Two impossibilities in the D. reply That Hell is infinite and that Hell is in the center of the earth Finitum non est capax inffniti That Hell and Heauen be both infinite Non sunt duo infinita HVME his Reioynder Whereas I charge you with immodesty you say you will charge me with vntruethes you are marueilous chollericke Good sir bee content you mistake my wordes I haue misvsed neither you nor your frends I onely saide speaking of the modester sorte that no divines alledge these words to proue that Hell is in the center of the earth which they might wel doe if ERETS TACHTITH did signifie Hell properly You haue not done well to trouble your friends to proue a thing not denied Here you call forth nine writers and crye shame on me for misvsing them If I were as chollericke as you I might take Pepper in the Nose and call you braâ—â—lesse for mistaking my words The meanest Carter in the plaine would neuer so haue ouerlasht himself by such shifts as this you haue made your booke importable If a man woulde peake out all such ware as this he woulde leaue you small store of stuffe to shew amongst your customers If you will runne this course you can neuer want wordes howsoeuer you shift for matter but if you mend not impertinent traish wil make men dispaire that euer you will be able to yarne a Bishopprick with your penne After all these out-cries you confesse that whiche I said and ad a reason because Hell is infinite Though your reason be not good yet your confession will purge me and staine your owne face with your own boxe That the lower-most partes of the earth must needs signifie Hell thus you argue Heauen is aboue and Hell is belowe Ergo the lower-most parts of the earth may be Hell This reason was taynted before it came at Whately-bridge and neuer came into Oxenforde amongst so many Noses able to smel such ware as farre as Bullington-greene without a peall of S. Clements Belles First you conclude not the question This question is not whether the lower-most partes of the earth may be Hell but whether ERETS TACHTITH be the proper name of Hell Secondly the place that you alledge out of the Proverbs all interpreters agree not vpon that sence of the wordes Lastly if a man shoulde reason Heauen is aboue and and Hell is be low Ergo Owkie hole is Hell you will laugh your selfe though partiallitie will not let you see the same stupiditie in your owne reason The first place that you alledge to Proue that ERETS TACHTITH must needes signifie Hell is out of the 63. psal They that seeke my soule shall goe downe into the lowermost parts of the earth Which place is so farr from prouing your conclusion necessarily that wher one interpretour that euer I saw doth interpret it of Hell three doth construe it of the graue which sence being agreeable to the rest of the Scriptures I viewing the whole bodie of the psalme and finding Dauid to speake onely of his owne private enemies and no inducementes to lead me to thinke that he speaketh here eyther in the person of Messias or of his bodie the Churche I gathered three reasons to disprooue your sence First that it were a presumption Secondly contrary to the mind of the godly to judg their own priuat enemies And lastly that the words following they shall fall vpon the edge of the sword can reach no further then to temporal death To the last of these you say nothing which of it self is strong ynough to cary this conclusion from you To the other two you oppose the 9. Psalme 18. where the Prophet speaketh of the wicked and the 109. psalm which containeth a prophecie of Christe vttered in the person of David Act. 1. 20. whiche places point besides the marke and proue not that Dauid doth Iudge his owne priuate enemies but the wicked and enemies of the Messias Wherfore though I scarsâ— trust these two last reasons yet till I here them taken away by reason I stand at my first marke stil that Dauid speaking heere of his owne privat enemies is of Iobs minde not reioycing at the destruction of them that hate him Iob. 31. 29. 30. And here M. D. I would haue you marke that though I had not on argumeÌ„t yet my sense beeing agreable to the wordes of the Psal and consonant to the scriptures is inough of it self to prove that youres is not the proper meaning of these words But say you this cannot be the graue because it followeth they shall be the porcion of Foxes that is they shall want the honour of the grave and there you set Calvine against mee saying that you see not how we may be reconciled togither For my part I care no more for Caluines fauour then Augustines and other godly mens that haue laboured fruitefully in the Lordes haruest whatsoeuer it pleaseth you to beare your reader in hand otherwais of me But if you had ben half so lerned as you think