Primitiue Church And the Doctors haue attributed them to him in whose name they are intituled And so much there is that the said Iustine in the place alledged layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ which being grosse and thick entered through the closed doores by the power of God contrary to the nature of a bodie And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision by reason of the entrie made without opening as spirites doo wontedly enter Let the text be seene S. Hillary saith not only that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were by the omnipotencie of God as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers hee repulseth mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties which vpon this act they imagined Nothing saith he gaue place to open to such a bodie and that it lost nothing of it substance nor by it entry was ought diminished He addeth That the doores and clefts were shut and fast barred And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ contrary to nature by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house close and couert without any opening wherein hee plainly sheweth that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ And for this let the text be viewed which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith That S. Thomas was abashed seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter Per in via septa corporibus Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu Through closures impassable for bodies And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist and in his Cōmentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn expresly saith Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat phantasma non erat spiritus vere corpus erat Quid enim dicit Respicite videte quia spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carnes habebat ossa clausa erant omnia Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa caro Clausa sunt omnia intrat quē intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei He that entred through the closed doores was not a vain vision was not a spirit it was truly a bodie For what saith he Behold and see For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me haue Hee had flesh hee had also bones and all thinges were shut How entered bones and flesh the doores being shut All thinges are shut and hee entereth whome wee see not entering How it is done thou knowest not and attributeth this to the power of God Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie as doth also S. Ambrose acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ in that hee passed through the shut doores by the omnipotencie of God S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth that the body pierced the closed doores euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls to see through without opening S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie which the Bishop of Ierusalem infected with the heresie of Origen held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection because contrary to the nature of a bodie he had passed through the closed doores wherein Saint Ierome as the other Auncients declareth that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie because it proceeded from a supernaturall power And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much where he vseth these words Iesus entered through the closed doores Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur Which thing the nature of humane bodies admitteth not So that with others he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ There is no doubt but S. Augustine in three places at the least maketh expresse mention that this body passed through the shut doores and that this was done by the power of God aboue the nature of bodies and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ besides the passages De agone Christiano and of the Epistle Ad volusianum alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei he saith so also Epiphanius in the first booke vpon the 20. Heresie and in the 2. booke vpon the 64. Heresie against the Origenists declareth that it is but a spirituall body to wit which looseth nothing of it corporall substance but changeth getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections and meete for spirites as to passe through the walles without opening And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection And euen so iudgeth as others do the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ and that because he pierced the shut doores as a spirit albeit hee were a true body Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also as the others this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord which by the like myracle walked vpon the waters against the nature of a body by the power of God and reproueth all them which ought suspected by this deed that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall By all these authorities the foure grounds proposed are true And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations is ouer-great impudencie For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza the Ministers to that ende produce two others to wit that the Angell opened the doore as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it or else had need of opening And the other is that the opening was made which way he pleased And by such diuersities the Ministers sufficiently declare that they know not where to rest And which is worse they could not alledge one only auncient Father for author of their fictions or that is contrary to all the others from the Primitiue Church And to alledge that the Iron gate in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord serueth nothing to the purpose For the Doctors neuer denied the same but haue well saide that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened the Euangelist had as easily said it as he said they were shut and as S. Luke saith that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe There is no doubt but peruerse spirits which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores with other Christians And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith to support their heresies as of all the other myracles hapned
consecrate vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine and that in them any chaunge happeneth Whereof it followeth that they differ not from common bread and wine and that such a feast and banquet is but common And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it the name of Christs Supper Behold why partly the Doctors haue said that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely to the demaunds by them proposed which they haue not done which is the cause that the Doctors least they should trauell in vaine haue not yet willed to impugne their answere summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them without drawing backe from the Conference which they say they affect so greatly The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments to wit whether the Ministers did beleeue that two things were essentiall and necessary to the confection of the Sacrament namely the matter or element and the word The Ministers answere that the Sacrament in it perfection considered consisteth in three things c. They speake indeterminately so that one cannot iudge whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament which they call the Supper onely or generally of all as they were demaunded Although because they alledge Ireneus one may coniecture that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper Moreouer it behoueth to note that which they adde in it perfection considered to haue alwaies a starting hole when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall And that they openly declare what things be essentiall and necessary to a Sacrament to be made a Sacrament without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament containing the essence and spirituall fruites which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament To the second demaund the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper The Ministers haue sayd that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words addressed to the elements was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament But they demaunded not whether it behooued to pronounce that word with a lowe or high voyce but the Interrogatory was whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter or in administring the matter and that they might be such words for the Supper And it is not sufficient to say that the word by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared is the word of the Sacrament but it behoueth to answere in what words consisteth that word and when it must be pronounced As touching the sixt and principall demaund the Ministers answere not clearly and to purpose but make a captious answere by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence participatioÌ„ of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper And so temper they their saying that there is no Zuinglian nor Almanists which confesseth not thereof as much or more then they To wit that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ that they possesse him in the power of their faith and by the operation of his holy spirite to be made flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones c. But this is farre off from the demaund to wit whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules besides all the graces spirituall among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ his true bodie and blood really truly and substantially And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament with the fruites thereof proceeding And for more breuitie the Doctors demaund whether the Ministers do receiue and approoue that which Caluin hath written of the Supper and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme Institution and other bookes As touching the seauenth demaund the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them touching the Concomitance For they haue taken it as if one demaunded whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question But suche a difficultie was proposed to them namely whether in theyr Supper when one hath receiued the bread before hee receiue the wine he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ without hee be partaker of his bloud vntill hee haue taken the wine or hauing eaten the bread whether he hath receiued the body and bloud before he take the Cup To which demaunds to auoyd vaine blotting of paper the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere without wandering and to render open confession of their faith And that the Doctors may knowe what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue As touching the articles of the Masse the Doctors reserue them to their proper place which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament The fourth of August the yeare aboue said The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the morning being 7. of August 1566. THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors as be theyr repetitions and reheaâ—salls dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth and the Ministers then the questions by them propounded will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere The Ministers first say that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place but to a certaine company and to the traditions giuen followed and by the same approued And they magnifie God that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie and traditions of the Romane Church which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers when errours abuses and vices did not as yet there abounde as since they doo But now that all things almost are there corrupted as well in manners as in doctrine and that nothing is there more odious then the word the light the trueth and the power of God The Ministers do say that as the state of the same Church hath
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
it was impossible to God to make one bodie to be in two places Concerning this Article which beginneth Touching that which they say that the authorities c. The Doctors obiect that the auncient Fathers neuer thought to make exception of any thing which is not subiect to the power of God For as it is manifest hee that saith all excepteth nothing Therefore when the Scripture saith that God is almightie it giueth sufficiently to vnderstand that there is no exception And to giue exception therein should be to contradict to many places of the word of God and to blaspheme against his power But well say the Doctors that the Fathers haue interpreted the Omnipoteucie of God not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature but that only which concerneth the Creatures So that there were not on their part too apparant contradiction and repugnancie Now the present question importeth not that there is contradiction for a bodie to be a bodie and in diuers places at one selfe-same instant For concerning the essence of bodies in speaking of a bodie hauing it dimensions as speake the Philosophers De praedicamento quantitatis Certaine it is that the dimensions are of the essence of a bodie but to be circumscript and inclosed in a place that is an accident Which thing is shewed by Philosophie it selfe For the most high heauen according to all is a bodie and neuerthelesse is it not in place according to it all Therefore is it not an essentiall thing for a bodie to be enclosed in one place And to speake of the present matter the Ministers should be very much troubled to prooue that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in one place in heauen seeing it is written in the 4. Chapter to the Ephesians he is mounted aboue all the heauens out of which there is no place as they speak of places in regard of bodies according to nature And were it so that it should be essential to a body to be in one place according to the rule which the Ministers deliuer an other blasphemy would follow against the Omniporencie of God that God could not make a body and place the same aboue all heauens And to speake more vniuersally that God could not make a bodie without place and roomth equall to it greatnes Touching the Allegations proposed by the Ministers of certaine auncient Authors The Doctors do obiect that the said Allegations are against themselues For as much as to be inclosed in a place doth not depend of the essence of a bodie nor of it measures as appeareth by the authorities produced wherein there is mentiō made of Angels which haue not bodies It is not therefore an essentiall reason for the demensions of a body to be contained in a place And all this furniture of authorities maketh nothing to the purpose For they tend but to shewe that the naturall proprietie of creatures is different from the diuine nature as S. Basil saith expresly in the place by the Ministers alledged And S. Ambrose in his first booke of the holy Ghost Cap. 7. where the same Authors doo declare that God by his nature may be euery where and the creatures by their natures not so But the said Authors pretend not that God by his Omnipotencie cannot make one body to be in diuers places For the same Authors or their like when they come to speak of the power of God in the holy Sacrament they affirme that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in heauen and in the holy Sacrament And affirme that the Angels and spirits of the blessed may by the same power be in many places As the Doctors will shew in their resolution Where the Ministers say that a body must be circumscript without place according to the essentiall proprietie that hath bene formerly shewed to be false And the Ministers do confound the name of body which sometimes doth signifie substance sometimes quantitie hauing it dimensions breadth length and deepnesse which dimensions be essentiall in a body taking the body for a kinde of quantitie and not in a substantiall body for it is an accident Now certaine it is that God can seperate the accidents from a body and make a substance without accidents otherwise there would follow an other blasphemie that God could not seperate the accident from a subiect and substance And where the Ministers say that a stone by a violent mouing may bee cast on high that is no answere to the question For the Doctors doo demaund for as much as it is essentiall and naturall to a massy and terrestriall body in regard of the massinesse and waight thereof tending downeward whether God by his onely power contrary to the naturall proprietie of a massy and waightie body cannot hold and hang it vp on high And as touching the euasion which the Ministers make from a very strong and mightie argument against their doctrine that two bodies may be in one place by the proofe that is made taken from the scripture not onely to proue that God can cause two bodies to be in one place but euen that he hath done it serueth nothing to couer their error in saying that it is not said in S. Iohn that our Lord did enter by the shut doores but that he was found standing in the midst of them where the said Ministers haue concealed and omitted this verbe venit and do stay onely vpon the verbe stetit For the expresse text in S. Iohn cap. 21. 19. saieth That the doores being shut Iesus came into the place where the Disciples were assembled and was there in the middest of them They demaund of them for as much as the scripture saith that he came thither the doores beeing shut and that hee was found in the middest of them whether hee were found in the middest of them and in the said place without entring thereinto or whether hee there entered for as much as the text saith that the doores were shut when he came How they will proue by the scripture that he entred if not by the shut doores For a much greater myracle should it be to be found in the middest of his Disciples without being entred into the place where they were Too light is that shift to say it is not written that he entred For S. Augustine in his booke De agone Christiano cap. 24. saieth thus Nec nos moueat quod clausis hostijs subitò eum apparuisse Dicipulis scriptum est vt propterea negemus illud fuisse corpus humanum quia contra naturam huius corporis videmus illudper clausa hostia intrare Omnia enim possibilia sunt Deo Nam ambulare super aquas contra naturam huius corporis esse manifestum est tamen non solum ipse Dominus ante passionem ambulauit sed etiam Petrum ambulare fecit Let it not moue vs because it is written that the doores being shut he suddenly appeared to his Disciples that we therefore denie that body to
haue bene humane because wee see it against the nature of this body to enter by the closed doores For to God are all things possible For to walke also vpon the waters is manifestly against the nature of this body And yet the Lord himselfe not onely walked before his passion but also caused Peter to walke Where it appeareth that S. Augustine saith plainly that our Lord did enter by the shut doores and referreth all to the omnipotencie of God Moreouer the text of S. Luke ioyned with that of Saint Iohn doth shewe that he entred through the doores For no reasonable occasion had the Apostles had to thinke it was a spirit and not a body seeeing him before them in the likenesse of a man but for that he was entred otherwise then a true body and very man could enter That is for that he was entred by the closed doores which thing a true man and a true body in no wise can doo To say that the doores were opened and afterwards shut again by myracle or otherwise should nothing auaile For so may a true man and a true body be there and therefore no cause can a man haue to think it a spirit or vaine vision The Doctors say moreouer that all the auncient heretikes and Christians did commonly agree that Iesus Christ passed through but such was their difference as now it is between the Ministers Doctors The auncient heretikes said that Iesus Christ after his resurrection had not a true body because he did workes contrary to the nature of a body which implied contradiction to a naturall body to wit that at one selfe instant he was in one selfe-same place with an other body as when he passed through the doores The auncient Catholike Christians answered that such indeed was the nature of a body that it could not passe through the doores through the body of the virgin in his birth without fracture through the stone of the Sepulchre in it resurrection but neuerthelesse that two bodies should be together by the omnipotencie of God implied no contradiction for as much as it so hapned in the three cases done and recited The first that speaketh therof is Iustine Martir in the 117. question against the Gentiles where hee saith If a thicke body be hindred to passe through the doores how did our Lord after his resurrection enter the shut doores And if it bee so why was the stone remoued by the Angell from off the Sepulchre to the end his body might rise againe He answereth thus That euen as our Lord without changing his body into a spirit walked vpon the sea but by his diuine power he made the sea solide to walke vpon not onely for his owne body but for that of S. Peter So by his diuine power he came forth of the sepulchre the stone remaining thervpon and entered to his Disciples the doores beeing shut Hereby we vnderstand that the things which proceed of diuers vertues ought to haue the same faith And we must know that the things which surpasse nature wheÌ„ they are wrought in it by diuine power ought not to be measured according to the reason proprietie of nature For this cause our Lord seeing his Disciples troubled at such an entry did propose vnto them the parts of his body and the places and markes of his wounds to be touched to shew he was not entred by change of his body into a spirite but with his body composed of it dimensions and thicknesse and by his diuine almightinesse which made all things that surpasse the strength of nature Saint Hillary in his third booke of the Trinitie But thou saith hee which wilt search into the things insearchable and wilâ— be Iudge of the secrets of God and his power I aske counsell of thee giue onely a reason and solution of this fact to mee that 〈◊〉 and do simply beleeue in God concerning all things euen as hee hath said and pronounced them I vnderstand that the Lord was often present after his resurrectioâ— to he seene and knowne of them which beleeued him not The self-same Lord applying himselfe to the weaknesse of out vnderstanding and to satisfie the doubts of the 〈◊〉 doth shewe a secret and a worke of his almightinesse Expound to me theâ— whosoeuer thou art which wilt beeade archer of the omnipotencie of God the reason of this deeâ—â—t The Disciples being shut vp and withdrawne together in secret the Lord is proposed to Thomas to confirme his faith according to the conditions he desired to wit that he might touch his body and proue his wounds And for this cauâ—ent behoued him to bring the true body with him wherein he had receiued such wounds I demaund then for as much as he was corporall by what part of the house entred hee in For I see that the Euâ—ngelist diligently expresseth that Iesus came when the doores were shut and was found in the middest of his Disciples to wit whether he pierced the thicke walles and the great lettes of timber betweene both Certaine it is that without fiction or guile hee there entered Let thy conceit followe and consider his entrie and thy vnderstanding enter into the house shut within All thou seest is whole and fast locked and yet is lâ—ee found in the middest of his Disciples but it is because all things by his almightinesse are open to him Thou slaunderest things inuisible I aske thee againe the reason of this thing there visible Nothing of the wall or solide doores gaue backe or made way Contrariwise I see that wood and stones by their nature cannot receiue such an entrie The body of our Lord was not quite vanished to bee eftsoones taken and made of nothing Whence then commeth it that he is found in the middest of them without opening Sence and speech do herein faile and the truth of the deed is beyond humane reason As then we are abused concerning the birth of the sonne of God we lye also concerning such an entry The deed is false say we it so happened not because we cannot vnderstand the reason thereof and for that our sence and iudgemenr faileth we say there is no such deed But the faith and beliefe of the deed doth conuince our lying The Lord the doores being shut is found in the middest of the Apostles and the sonne of God is borne of his Father Denie not that hee thus entred because by the infirmitie of thy spirit thou canst not comprehend such an entrie I could amplifie like deeds in all the creatures but the Lord hath well prouided for himselfe to haue contained vs in necessitie and modestie by the nature of our bodies Sufficiently we shewe that we would make our selues an other God had we power so to do For as much as wee cannot by the boldnesse of our wicked will ruinate the nature of truth we gainsay it at least and contend with the word of God S. Ambrose in his tenth booke vpon S. Luke cap. 24. saith through the doores S.
body Moreouer in numbring of the errors sometimes coÌ„demned by the facultie of Paris it is expresly said That the heauen by them called Empyreum is the place of Angels of blessed spirits and glorified humane bodies Where the Doctors pretend that of the doctrine which the Ministers maintaine that a body cannot be without place nor in many places at one instant may be inferred that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God The Ministers contrariwise say that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie and diminish the same in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone to wit to be vncircumscript As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost where he proueth that the holy Ghost is God not a creature because he is incircumscript and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript and limited As much thereof also say S. Basil and Vigilius and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke Where they confesse that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript although they be not corporall This reason is against themselues and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies to wit that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place For by an argument froÌ„ the lesse to the more If the Angels which want dimension and measure by their own confession in as much as they be creatures be necessarily circumscript by a more strong reason the bodies of men which be creatures and measured shall be so likewise And where they adde that the auncient Fathers haue not said that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn which is recited De consec distinct 2. C. Prima quideÌ„ Where speaking of the body of Iesus Christ he saith namely It behooueth that the body of our Lord wherin he rose again be in one place teaching therby that at one selfe-same time it cannot be in diuers places And touching the reason they adde taken froÌ„ the Sacrament to proue their assertioÌ„ the Ministers say that the fathers neuer vnderstood nor said that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen and in the Sacrament in one selfe same sort maner nor do they teach that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament And wheras in their resolutioÌ„ they pretend to proue that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons then they wil answere therevnto That which they say of a body it being dispoiled of it dimensions ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding is a very absurd thing For did it happen that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions it should no more be a body but an incorporeall substance of like nature as the Angels spirits And although God by his power can seperate the dimensioÌ„s of a substance without corrupting it yet can it not be that they be seperated froÌ„ a body without the corruptioÌ„ of the same Because the quantitie dimensions are accidents of the substance but not of the body which cannot subsist without them in as much as they be of it proper essence Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection that the waight in a body is a thing essentiall The Ministers do deny it And the reason is that were it of the essence of a bodie and the same wanting the bodie should cease to bee Neuerthelesse we see that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection doth not leaue to be subsist although it be now exempted from all waight And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither one body at one instant may be also in diuers places The Ministers not graunting the antecedent vnder correction say that the consequence is not good and that the argument is very weake Adding therto that the Doctors haue nor prooued and neuer can prooue by the scriptures nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers nor by any sufficient reason that which they propose in their antecedent or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place alledge out of the scripture that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were the doores being shut The Ministers do answere that it is not written that he entred through the closed doores but only the doores being shut which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where mention is made of that aboue said Cuum fores essent clausae Then when the doores were shut Iesus came c. Neuertheles the Ministers say they verily belieue and are assured of that which the scripture doth clearly say to wit that the doores being shut he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples But they cannot certainly define nor determine which way he entered whether it were through the walles or doores of wood which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings alledged by the Doctors Howsoeuer it be the Ministers do say that in entering he miraculously made way And that a body be it the wood or wall did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment as before hath bâ—ne said And that howsoeuer it was done two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine in his booke de agone Christiano that Iesus Christ entered through the doores The Ministers deny not that he entred through the doores but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores that the doores at his entire gaue him place as is said For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition that it was a vaine vision it nought appertaineth to the present matter nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry which was miraculous as they euer confessed And touching that which they adde afterwards in the opinion held by the olde heretiques of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it was not a true bodie because it did things aboue nature The Ministers doo shewe them that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it doth things not only aboue nature but also contrary to nature yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God And there is no doubt but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques which
two places alledge nothing more instantly then the impossibilitie for God to doo this Now to the end that all the world may vnderstand the present difference betweene the Doctors and Ministers the Doctors declare that no other difference there hath beene hitherto touching this article then to know whether it be in the power of God to make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant or no. And for the second article the Doctors say that the Ministers answere not to the purpose for the obiection was not whether quantitie were an accident of a Mathematicall body Aut de praedicamento quantitatis as speaketh the Philosophers but to know whether it were of the essence and of necessitie to the quantitie of a body to be circumscript and in one piace inclosed And as touching S. Augustine by the Ministers alledged he speaketh expresly according to the proprieties of the diuine and humane natures And wel saith that the diuine is in all places but not the humane because of it naturall proprietie it requireth a place certaine And of this make the Doctors no doubt according to the said naturall proprietie But the question is to wit whether aboue nature by the omnipotencie of God he cannot cause one body to be without place proportionable to it greatnesse Which S. Augustine speaking de Ianuis clausis not hauing regard to the nature of things but to the power of God plainly confesseth And the Doctors would desire the Ministers to alledge this Epistle of S. Augustine against the doctrine of Caluin and his Ministers for the descent of the soule of Iesus Christ into hell as often as they alledge the passage of the place of bodies against the power of God touching the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament In the 3. article the Ministers are deceiued For after the sayings of the Philosophers and according to the naturall reason of a body which the Ministers do follow Locus est superficies Corporis continentis Place is the ouermost part of a containing body Wherfore it should behoue that were the high and last heauen circumscript of place there should be a body aboue the high and first heauen A quo primum Caelum contineretur Et sic in infinitum Of which the first heauen should be coÌ„tained And so infinit And moreouer the Ministers answer not to the other obiectioÌ„s made theÌ„ vpoÌ„ this article And as touching the passages of scripture which they alledge to proue that there are toomthes places aboue all the heauens they captiously conclude and 〈◊〉 with doubtfulnesse of the name of place For in all their 〈◊〉 of the dimensions of bodies which they haue said 〈◊〉 to require roomth and place equall and 〈…〉 their bignesse it is meete they vnderstand 〈…〉 roomthes and places euen as the dimensions and of 〈◊〉 do require the same And now when they speake of place◠〈…〉 meet they vnderstand theÌ„ others then 〈…〉 be not such roomthes places as these wherein 〈…〉 now are but incomprehensible and vnimaginable places where bodies and spirits indifferently are without distinction for their greatnesse of certaine spaces and places corporall And in such places the Ministers rule is false by which they maintaine that a body cannot be in one place if it bee not as spacious as the greatnesse of the body Moreouer the Doctors say that it is the manner of heretikes to interpret the scriptures spiritually when they are litterally to bee taken and contrariwise to expound according to the letter that which spiritually and by figure ought to bee vnderstood As the Ministers doo expound the house of Cod in the other world litterally and corporally wherein there are spaces and corporall habitations diuers and seperate one from an other albeit it ought to bee spiritually vnderstood for the diuersitie of degrees of blessednesse The said Doctors cannot omit a manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this selfe-same article wherein they preâ—end that the bodies and soules of the blessed are lodged aboue all the heauens And yet they place the body of Iesus Christ within the heauen And touching the alledged article condemned by the facultie of diuinitie at Paris the Doctors answere that the Ministers do ordinarily alledge authorities pared or euilly applied For the Article saith that the Bishop of Paris hauing called the Facultie condemned all those which would place two distinct heauens one for the Angels the other for the soules of men Which nothing pertaineth to the present question The Ministers in the fourth article do charge the Doctors who neuer attribute the proprietie of God to any creature but haue often heretofore said that to bee euerie where and incircumscript was not naturall to any creatures but to God alone And the Authors by the Ministers alledged as Saint Basil Didimus and Vigilius speake no otherwise theÌ„ of the proprietie of nature to be euery where or not And yet they neuer denie but it is in Gods power to cause one creature or body aboue it nature to be in two or many places but as aforesaid when they come to the power of God many of the olde authors confesse that it is possible with God and that hee hath done the same in the Sacrament the answere of the Ministers is therefore to no purpose For the whole contention is of the power of God and not of naturall proprieties The Ministers in the fift article haue not well conceiued the reason of the Doctors who alledge that the Angels are naturally circumscript as well as bodies and hereby would inferre that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the sole and essentiall cause of the dimensions of a body as by all their said reasons the Ministers pretend Albeit the Doctors are not ignorant that to put difference betweene the corporall and spirituall creatures they haue accustomed to distinguish in schooles that the Angels Sunt diffinitiue in loco and the bodies Circumscriptiue In the sixt article to satisfie the Doctors who made instance they should produce one onely place of the auncient Fathers where it was said that it is not in Gods power to make one body to be in two places The Ministers for all the testimonies they could haue do falsly alledge a place of S. Augustine where it is said as it is cyted in Gratian De consecra distinct 2. C. prima quidem that the said Saint Augustine hath written that it behoued the body of Iesus to be in one place wherevnto say the Doctors that it is not so couched in the proper text of S. Augustine which is in the 30. tract vpon Saint Iohn For such is the tenour in all the auncient copies of S. Augustine Corpus domini in quo resurrexit vno loco esse potest veritas eius vbique diffusa est The body of the Lord in which he rose againe may be in one place his truth is shead into euerie place Where is not this word Oportet as the Ministers cyte it hauing taken the
same out of Gratian. And that men may knowe there is no great trust to be giuen to the fragments of Gratian without recourse to the copies of Saint Augustine in the tytle of Canon these words are there extracted out of the exposition of S. Augustine vpon the 54 Psalme From whence hee draweth the onely beginning of his Canon and yet doth he not truly cyte it The â—est of the said Canon is taken from diuers passages of S. Augustine And although there should bee Oportat S. Augustine speaketh after his wonted manner according to the proprietie of a body opposing the diuinitie to the humanitie without touching the operation of Gods omnipotencie Whereof when he maketh mention and that he speaketh of the Sacrament he plainly affirmeth the body of Iesus Christ to be in diuers places by the omnipotencie of God As the Doctors hope in their resolution to deduce as well out of him as other auncients also The 8. artide containeth many errors against Philosophie and truth First because the Ministers make no distinction betweene the body they cab Mathematicall to wit hauing dimension of breadth length and height and the Phisicall or naturall body to wit which is composed of a substantiall forme and matter by the vnion whereof it is made a naturall substantiall body Secondly although the body should bee without quantitie yet should it differ from our soules seperated which bee not materiall substances and consequently should it also differ from the Angells and spirits Thirdly the Ministers by the conclusion of this article doo manifestly declare that they acknowledge not any substantiall body And where they say that although God might seperate the dimensioÌ„s from a substance without corrupting the same that such substance should remaine spiritually as the Angels they are deceiued For such substance should not remaine immateriall as are our soules and the Angels which be not capable of dimensions and therefore should it yet bee different from Angels and our soules Concerning the ninth article the Ministers answere nothing to the purpose For the Doctors say not that the massinesse and waight bee essentiall in a body but to presse downeward is essentiall to the sadnesse and waight of a body And by their obiection they demaunded to knowe whether an earthly and massy body abiding in it substance and natural waight might not by the omnipotencie of God be hanged in the ayre without falling downward albeit it were against it nature and inclination Moreouer for answere to many articles which concerne the act of two bodies in one place and the passages of holy scripture and auncient Authors produced by the Doctors to proue that it was in Gods power to cause two bodies to bee in one onely place and contrariwise that by the same reason it was in the same power to cause one body to bee in two places First the Doctors say that the Ministers doo wrong to denie this consequence Two bodies by the power of God may be in one selfe-same place Then on the contrarie part one body may be in two places by the selfe-same power For as great repugnancie there is to Gods established order in the one as in the other and as great contradiction in nature founded vppon one selfe-same cause and reason to wit in the limitation and circumscription of a body Which as it is naturall to be in place so is it naturall for it to bee in place proportioned and answerable to it measures And if for the number of diuers places where a body should bee one may inferre that it should no more bee a body as implying contradiction by the same reason according to one onely place where many bodies should bee may also bee inferred that they should no more be many bodies or that many bodies should be one Which would imply the contradiction as the former And where the Ministers denie the antecedent which is that two bodies may bee in one place the Doctors to proue it haue produced the passages of scripture of the closed doores the birth of the body of our Lord of the Virgin the going out of the Sepulchre the passage of a Camell through the eye of a needle and the piercing of the heauens made by Christ in his ascention And for as much as the Ministers denie these actes contained expresly in holy scripture and expounded by the auncient Christians and depraue the same at their pleasure The Doctors estsoones vpoÌ„ the texts of scripture do say as followeth First as touching the closed doores Saint Iohn saith That Iesus came meaning into the place where his Disciples were But hee came not there without entering thereinto For to bee found in the middest of them without entring there should bee a much greater myracle then that hee entred there simply Secondly it is said Cum fores essent clausa or Ianuis clausis To wit that hee there entered the doores beeing shut And there is no apparance that the scripture maketh mention of doores rather then an other place were it not to shewe the place by which hee entred Thirdly it is added not in vaine that the doores were shut without saying that any opening was myraculously made For it is alwaies said Quod venit Ianuis clausis That hee came the doores beeing shut And were it true that the doores had bin opened by diuine power this should be false that our Lord entred Ianuis clausis for hee should haue entered Ianuis apertis howsoeuer they had bene opened And to shewe that the common consent of all the Auncientes haue bene that Iesus entered therein by the closed doores the Doctors set forth foure foundations drawne from the auncient Fathers The first is that all expresly confesse the myracle of such an entrie to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ The second is that such myracle was there wrought by the power of God aboue the nature of a body The third is that the Fathers especially iudge that herein consisteth the myracle that the body pasâ—ed through the closed doores and that so it was with an other body And for the fourth ground they adde that the Apostles by reason of such entring supposed that the body of Iesus Christ was not a true body but a spirit or vaine vision which the Ministers lightly passe ouer without any answere Now so it is that if by the power of God as the Ministers will haue it an opening was made of the doores or any other part of the house to giue entrie to the bodie of Iesus Christ then the myracle did not consist in the said body but in the doores or other part of the house which was open and nothing had beene there against the nature of the bodie of our Lorde for it is not repugnant to any bodie whatsoeuer to enter by an opening made by myracle or otherwise Bee it that Iustine was not Author of the questions against the Gentiles yet can they not deny but they are of some auncient Christian of the
are well done and ordained although that the reason and order therein be oftentimes vnknowne to men which Salomon wrote saying God maketh all things good in their season Wherevnto may be also applied that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature And it followeth not that that which is new to custome is contrary and repugnant to reason c. If the Doctors will know more thereof let them reade the two bookes of Order which this holy man composed and that which he wrote concerning myracles in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies which follow in the obiection of the Doctors Concerning the fourth the Ministers for answer say that the will of God after the doctrine of Diuines may in two sorts be cōsidered to wit according to that which by words signes and effects is declared to men and according to that which is reteined hidden in himselfe The one is called the will knowne by signes and the other the will of the good pleasure of God For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors that God can do many things which he will not do But as touching the other they say that it is equall to his power as is also his power in this respect equall to his will According to which consideration the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors ought to be vnderstood and expounded As all those may iudge which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod are yet constrained here to repeate that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth It must not be said without any determination that all things are possible to God For who so absolutely saith this comprehendeth all things as well good as bad which no way ought to be attributed to God whereby it appeareth that this good author and the other before alledged by the Ministers haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God but excepted from the same whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence To be briefe but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant and the Doctors which affirme the cōtrary to wit that the Doctors without taking so long circuit loosing so many words and alledging so many superfluous things do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture that God willeth the same Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended that quantitie is essentiall to a body and not accidentall as hold the Doctors they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors to wit that there is no place aboue the heauens that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there without any distinction or distance of place the Ministers say that touching all these points they rather beleeue the scripture and expresse word of God by them alledged then all the subtilties sophistries of vaine Philosophie which the Doctors or others can propose Ioyned herevnto that it is expresly cōteined taught in one of the articles of our faith where it is said Frō whence he shall come to iudge the quick the dead Wherevpon must bee noted that there is Vnde an Aduerbe signifying place As touching the 4. and 5. articles to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true they send backe the readers to the precedent conference And also to know in what sence and to what end the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers which they may easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted For the 6. article wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false then accusing their authoritie to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody and that to be such it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine whence the said Canon is taken it is easie to iudge that the word Oportet is there much more conuenient then that of Potest To the 8. article the Ministers answere that a substance is not without quantitie and whiles it is such and so remaineth it cannot any waies be a body And the reason is because that of the substance and that of the quantitie are two diuers predicaments vnder which one selfe-same thing for one selfesame respect cannot be any way comprised Moreouer Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit but that hee had members and parts which in respect of their measures might bee handled and touched Whence it followeth that without this a substance cannot be a body And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie if that were possible the Ministers say that although they were substances both in number and different they should neuerthelesse be like as touching the kinde and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article because it is but a repetition and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate To the 10. article the Ministers answere that the consequence whereof is the question cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors but by the rule which saith that of one absurditie may all things be inferred Moreouer they complaine of time which the Doctors make them loose by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende then to fill vp paper and to make men thinke they say something For first the Euangelist saith not as the Doctors pretend that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores but onely that he came the gates beeing shut So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry nor how the doores were opened or other place about the house by the which he entered And all that which the Doctors say cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged which bee more against them then with
iudgements Where the Ministers complaine of the time they haue lost in reading the reasons arguments and allegations touching the closed doores and other articles The Doctors say that in the matter in question the Ministers haue no cause to complaine of ouer-great prolixitie for feare of loosing time And that there is matter sufficient to spend the time withall would they with patience bringing with them good will and all passion excluded examine the testimonies of the Auncients and reasons drawne from the same But the Doctors do wel proue that when there is any thing which presseth the Ministers then set they a good face on the matter and make semblance to haue right on their side Moreouer the Doctors are much amazed how the Ministers are so bold to say that Iustin and all the Auncients haue not placed the myracle of the passage of the doores in the body of Iesus Christ seeing that Iustin expresly proposeth the question how it is possible that a thicke bodie is not hindered to passe through the closed doores In the answere of which question they conclude the same that for as much as such myracle was done in the nature of the body of Iesus Christ the Apostles esteemed it was not a true bodie but a spirite as if the bodie had beene transformed into a spirite which Iustin saith did not happen but that without any chaunge of nature such an operation to passe through the closed doore was giuen to the body of Iesus Christ by the omnipotencie of God and Iustin saith not that any myracle was wrought in the sea when Iesus walked therevpon but that by the almightinesse which was in him he made it walkeable without any chaunge of the nature either of his body or of the sea although that the myracle were in his body which against it nature so walked It is not sufficient to alledge out of S. Hillary that the power of God made passage to the body of our Lord. For he saith not that onely but addeth the manner of the deed to wit that the body passed without change or diminishing of it nature and without hauing any opening But that by the operation of the almightinesse he passed notwithstanding which wrought in his body piercing the shut and closed places Nihil inquit cessit ex solido parietum nothing ceased saith he of the firmnesse of the walles and other like words which he bringeth of which can no other thing be vnderstood but a piercing of many bodies S. Chrisostome expresly disputeth of the body which against it nature passed through the closed doores as through the wombe of the virgin without fraction And he saith not simply that hee knoweth not wherein the worke consisted for he describeth it but he amplifieth the power of the worke and saith that he cannot comprehend the reason and greatnesse thereof for as much as it proceeded from the power of the incomprehensible Cod. Concerning this whole point the Doctors refer them to the reading of the bookes without more debating thereof against the Ministers who think alwayes to abuse the ignorance of those which beleeue thē denying or affirming what they thinke good And it troubleth and grieueth the Doctors that they are constrained to repeate the former reasons so familiarly and clearly deducted But the Ministers euasions so often repeated enforce thē eftsoones to inculeate that which of these articles ought to be beleeued by the common consent of the Fathers The Doctors are abashed at the maner of the Ministers answere who without regard of that hath bene obiected to them say what they please without answering to the arguments of the matter proposed As they do in the article of the byrth of Iesus Christ In the deductiō wherof the Doctors haue brought many testimonies of the Ancients which hold that our Lord as he was also there conceaued myracuculously issued from the wombe of his mother And that the said Fathers did witnesse such byrth to haue bin made without any fraction in the body of the virgin and condemned of heresie all those which held the contrary Which thing the Ministers will yet maintain and for full answere affirme the same relying as they say vpon the scripture and not daring to say openly that to cleaue to their proper sence they reiect the determination of the ancient primitiue Church Which is very cleare notwithstanding by their answere to this article wherein they falsly cyte the scripture as though it contained that in the byrth of our Lord Aperta fuerit vulua virginis The wombe of the virgin was opened And where they say that such an opening repugneth not the corporall virginitie whereof is the question they belye the resolution of the auncient Fathers which haue determined of that deed Whether in the Article of the Resurrection there be but coniectures the reading of the Doctors obiection will witnesse The which they may see that desire to know the truth thereof Where the Ministers do complaine in the end of the article of the Resurrection that the Doctors do wrong and scoffe them the Doctors doubt not but the Ministers are sore troubled that their subtilties and maner of dealing are discouered the which did men well vnderstand they would not suffer themselues so easily as heeretofore to be deceiued The solution which the Ministers pretend to giue because it is not Aphantos autois but Ap'auton is impertinent For howsoeuer it was our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples were it by suddaine vanishing or otherwise the which vanishing in a body present to perfect sight cannot be done except the body be made to them inuisible And howsoeuer it be the Greeke Text beareth inuisible and vnapparant As touching the article of the opening of the heauens the Ministers as they are wont answere not to the purpose For it is not said that the heauens were clouen asunder or opened when he ascended thither as at the baptisme of Iesus Christ and when it is spoken of the vision of S. Stephen But the scripture saith expresly that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens and not that the Heauens were opened vnto him And the Ministers cannot forbeare to slaunder the Doctors in deprauing the vnderstanding of their writings as is seene in this present answere where the Ministers faineto haue vnderstood in that place of the scripture mencioning Iesus Christ to haue pierced the Heauens that the Doctors by the name of Heauen will haue the ayre to be signified which the Doctors neuer thought but haue oft times sayd that when it mencioneth the opening of the Heauens by the Heauens it vnderstandeth the aire which so ought not to be applyed when our Lorde is sayd to haue pierced the Heauens By such manner of answere do the Ministers thinke to cause the force of the Doctors reason to be forgotten Who said thus If when it is said in the scripture that the Heauens were opened the words ought strictly to be taken and truly to be vnderstood that the heauens were opened It
this present writing Concerning that which the Ministers make question of in the last article of their answere that the Doctors doo call faith a humane worke seeing that it is of God they ought no more to wonder thereat then infinit other truthes which seemeth straunge to them because their doctrine is founded on the grounds of error among which one of the principall is That man hath not free will that man to thinke well will well and doo well worketh not together with God against many places of scripture which setteth downe man co-working with God and for his faith and workes hath of him reward and recompence The which without wandring from the purpose shall more aptly be handled in an other place The Doctors like well that the Ministers do confesse that the anciēt Fathers haue neuer said God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places which thing is true But the reason which they yeeld why they haue not so sayd is of the Ministers owne forge and inuention It remaineth that they shewe vs so much by the testimony of the Scripture concerning the same For no more is it therein found then in the writings of the Fathers Whereof the said Ministers haue bene oft admonished who say they build all their doctrine vpon the word of God Had the Ministers in the beginning confessed the truth of the Omnipotencie or else had they said that they acknowledged that Iesus Christ could cause his body to be aboue and here belowe in the Sacrament really and truly if he so would than had it bene needlesse to handle these former questions which neuerthelesse are not of small consequence as the Ministers do esteeme them Which thing appeareth by the writings of the Fathers who haue diligently handled these places and strengthened themselues therewith against heretiques But because the Ministers would not agree that God can make one body to be at one selfe-same instant in diuers places And that if the Doctors had begunne to declare his will to haue bene such that he had ordained the body of Iesus Christ should be in Heauen and in the Sacrament The Ministers might haue sayd as they of theyr sect doo say that God hath not willed it because he could not The Doctors had rather first intreate of the Almightinesse then of the will And seeing the matter of the Omnipotencie hath bene sufficitntly tossed they are determined to prooue that Iesus Christ hath willed and ordained that his bodie should bee in diuers places In the probation of which thing when they haue vnderstood the Ministers opinion of that they holde in theyr Churches touching that matter they will enter into the former Conference to the ende that theyr trauell be not in vaine For that they follow not it seemeth to the Doctors that which Caluin and Beza holde concerning the same For which cause say the Doctors that the Ministers abuse the people fayning to teach that which in the reformed Church they haue wontedly done and yet their answere addressed to the Doctors sheweth the contrary In that the Ministers repute themselues happie to endure such reproaches to be esteemed seducers by the Doctors let them remember that all sects may say as much therof as they whether by right or wrong it wil appeare by examination of their doctrine The Doctors resolution touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in regard of foure questions by them propounded to the Ministers which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament EVery man which can patiently cōsider by the scriptures beginning at Abraham the Father of the faithfull vnto the last writing of the Apostles shall finde that the well spring of all infidelitie hath ordinarily beene to haue regarde to the proprietie of creatures and common order of nature to contradict doubt of and distrust the word of God For which reason Tertullian and other former Christians sayd well that Phylosophers and they that stayed vpon things naturall were the Fathers of Hereticques because the contemplation of Nature engendered almost all heresies On the contrary side shall one perceiue the almightinesse of God to be proposed by the scriptures as a sharpe sword cutting in peeces all arguments which might come of naturall reasons for a certaine and finall resolution to beleeue whatsoeuer is couched borne by the said word of God albeit impossible incomprehensible to euery creature and faith to be staied on that same power in all doubts which might be offered or proposed All the difficultie which Abraham made vppon the promises of God to him did proceed of certaine impossibilities of nature which he sawe in himselfe and in his wife And it seemeth hee had alwayes regard therevnto vntill God vsed his authoritie and said vnto him I am God all sufficient Is any thing hard to the Lord After this rebuke and remonstrance of God Abraham did then forget all consideration of the proprieties of his nature and laid hold on this shield of faith which is to knowe and to bee fully perswaded that God is almightie to whom nothing is hard or impossible And after that when question was of killing his onely sonne albeit hee had great apparance of contradiction in nature and in the word of God which had beene giuen him to wit that of the seed of that sonne should hee proceed which should giue blessing to all Nations and notwithstanding hee must kill him before hee had any lynage of his bodie issued Neuerthelesse hee made not protestation opposing that contradiction of nature and of the word of GOD to maintaine that that which had beene said and promised vnto him was impossible but hee had recourse to the stay of faith and of the faithfull saieth Saint Paul to the Hebrewes that is to say to the omnipotencie esteeming that God had the meane to make true both the one and the other namely to cause his sonne to die and rise againe to drawe from him afterwards lynage and posteritie although as yet there had beene no example of the resurrection Likewise the consideration of creatures and the order of nature which Moses sawe before him made him fall into Infidelitie And God shewed him his fault in that he would deny him the power long time with flesh to nourish his people because the nature of the wildernes did not afford it and did admonish him to lift vp his spirit to the omnipotency against nature and there to assure his faith Moses said Sixe hundred thousand people there are among whom I am and thou saist I will giue them flesh that they may eate therof a month long Shall the sheepe and beeues be slaine to find them Either shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them to suffice them God answered Moses Is the hand of the Lord shortnea thou shalt now see whether my word shall come to passe or no. In like maner as often as one shall reade in the
all power without exception ouer the creatures and by written examples and straunge my racles wrought vpon their bodies against the nature of them Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection saith To the end wee may beleeue that our God is more mightie then all lawe and nature of all bodies And addeth that they knowe God amisse who thinke that is not in his power which they in their braine cannot comprehend From whence it commeth as saith S. Cyrill that such wicked spirits doo reiect and condemne all things as impossible because they themselues do not vnderstand them Moreouer the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently shewed as well by expresse scripture as by the expositions thereof taken from auncient Christians that it was not onely in the power of God to make two bodies in one place and one body without place equall to it greatnesse but that alreadie it was truly done in the birth of the body of our Lord Iesus Christ in his resurrection in the entrie through the closed doores and in the ascention aboue all the heauens And the Doctors haue shewed that there was like and semblable repugnancie in these deeds as in the other that is of one body in two places which is not exempted by the scripture from the power nor will of God more then the others to iudge it impossible to bee done and that there was neuer Christian before our time which dared to affirme that thing to be impossible â—nd out of the power of God although occasion was often offered to say it had they any way thought it impossible as the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion do pretend Contrariwife the most part of the auncient authors of the Primitiue Church haue held it expresly to be in Gods power to place one creature in many places as held Saint Ierome against the heretike Vigillantius that the soules of the Saints might be present in many places with the immaculate Lambe our Lord Iesus Christ And the question was whether the said soules and spirits of the Saints were sometimes present in the Churches where their Sepulchres and monuments were And so much thereof holdeth S. Augustine in the 16 Chap. of the booke which he wrote of the due care of the dead where he writeth that soules by the power of their owne nature cannot be here belowe and in heauen or in many places but that it may be done by the power of God and will not resolue whether they vnderstand our affaires by such a presence in many places or by the reuelation of Angels or other meanes by the power and grace of God Also it is certain that in the matter of the holy Sacrament the auncient Fathers of the Church haue acknowledged and maintained that the bodie of Iesus Christ was in many places by the almightie power of God As doth S. Ambrose vpon the tenth of the Epistle to the Hebrewes and Saint Chrisostome in his 17. Homily vpon the same Epistle Where both two as it were in like words do write that although in many places there are many actions and oblations of the body of Iesus Christ neuerthelesse hauing regard to the thing which is offered to wit the true lambe and body of Christ Iesus that this sacrifice in many places offered is but one for so much as it is but one selfe-same thing to wit the true lambe and the true body of Iesus Christ which is but one and abideth whole in all places where it is offered They adde also that the oblations of him in diuers places is not an iteration of the sacrifice of the Crosse but in commemoration of him So that in the sacrifice of the Masse they acknowledge and distinguish two points The one which concerneth the realtie of the thing offered and they say that this is the true lambe and true body of Iesus Christ which then remaining intierly one is neuerthelesse in many places And the other concerneth the action and oblation of such thing by the Priest which is no iteration nor like action or oblation as that of the Crosse but diuerse in remembrance notwithstanding of that was made vpon the Crosse S. Chrisostome in the third booke of Priesthood cryeth out saying Oh myracle and power of God! He which sitteth on high at the right hand of his Father is held betweene the hands of each one in the Sacrament S. Augustine vpon the 33. Psalme sheweth that the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper was in two places that is to say in it visible place among his Apostles and neuerthelesse betweene his owne hands So that he himselfe did beare himselfe And before he concludeth the same Saint Augustine debateth how it was possible that one person should beare his body betweene his hands And after he had shewed that it was impossible for Dauid and cuerie creature he descended at last to the diuine power which was in Iesus Christ by the which to him alone among all men such myracle was possible And to the ende that men should not depraue nor wrest the meaning of S. Augustine because there is something which after a sort is carried as though it diminished the truth let them note that the purpose of S. Augustine is to shewe that Iesus by his almightinesse did carrie himselfe which to any creature was impossible Now had he onely in the Supper borne betweene his hands the figure of the Sacrament and signe of his body and not his true and reall body hee should haue done nothing but what the least man might do For each man can carrie betwixt his hands the figure Image signe or Sacrament of his body or sticke it in his hat without myracle or supernaturall power It be houeth then that the certaine maner which S. Augustine vseth doth nothing diminish the truth and this it is that betweene his hands he was inuisible and in a supernaturall maner of being reall neuerthelesse and true S. Basil in his Liturgie with the others auoucheth the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and by his almightinesse notwithstanding to bee present in the Sacrament although the Ministers to proue it impossible for one body or one other creature to be in many places do chiefly build vpon S. Basil but the said S. Basil in the place by the Ministers alledged doth expresly protest not to speake but according to the naturall proprietie And in his Liturgie he declareth that it is not onely in the power of God to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and vpon the Aultar but that it is so truly done The Doctors to end this question of one body in many places say that such matter is not onely in the power of God but that it must so be beleeued to bee done in the holy Sacrament that God be not found a lyar and deceiuer in his word whereby Iesus affirmed to his Apostles that that which he gaue with his hands was his true body deliuered for vs. This is an argument which
in his deeds there should be imperfection And they further say that it should not be onely against the disposition and ordinary course of nature as the Doctors faigne to haue thought and vnderstood but also against the eternall and vnchangeable will of our God And as touching that which the Doctors to proue that God can do something against order do propose that he can chaunge and alter the order established in the world The Ministers confesse the same but they denie that in so dooing he should do any thing which were disordered As for example all faithfull and Christian men doo beleeue beleeue that God will renew at the last the estate of the whole world wherein there is nothing in the meane time which is not well ordained perfect and in all points accomplished The Doctors in the following article confound the distinction proposed by the Ministers in their answere betweene the will of God manifested and that he hath hidden in himselfe and is equall to his power as the Ministers before haue at large declared And the Doctors do falsly presuppose touching the reuealed will of God taking that generally which the Ministers haue graunted in some particulars onely to wit that God can doo more in ceraine things then he hath declared to will which none doubteth As saith S. Augustine in the booke of perfect Iustice that he cannot make a man to be perfect in this world and sanctifie him in such sort that there remaine no more in him any infirmitie or imperfection although hee hath neuer declared vnto vs by his word that hee would do it but contrariwise that the flesh in all the regenerate will alwaies refist the spirit so that all the time of their liues they shall be in many points imperfect But albeit in that and some other like cases God can do more then his will declareth which he hath manifested to vs in his word yet neuerthelesse can it not be said but that there be other cases wherein God hath reuealed his will vnto vs against which he can do or ordaine nothing As for example hee hath declared vnto vs that hee is one that he is immutable incomprehensible wholly good wholly iust wholly perfect and wholly true Against all which things which to vs are manifested and clearly proposed in his word impossible it is for him euer to thinke say do or ordaine Now the thing proposed and debated by the Doctors touching the being of one body at one instant in diuers places is comprised in that ranke beeing as is said contrarie to the truth of God Which shall serue for answere to the Doctors slaunders and to all that they haue proposed in this article Likewise in an other following article where they say that God not onely can but will also cause that one body occupie diuers places at one selfe-same time That shall be yet more impossible for them to proue then the power aforesaid for which they haue hitherto so much trauelled in vaine In their definition of one bodye in the Article following they contradict themselues when they say that the measures are essentiall vnto it and that it may neuerthelesse bee incircumscript for if it bee needfull that the dimensions whereof it is composed bee finite of necessitie it followeth therevpon that then it is finite limited and circumscript To that which they afterwards say that the reason which the Ministers haue taken of the Creed and alledged to proue that the body of Iesus Christ is in heauen in a place certaine is friuolous The Ministers say that the Doctors shewe therein what reuerence they beare to the word of GOD and his spirite who hath reuealed the same vnto vs and to the Apostles which declare them vnto vs. To iustifie Gracian and the Canon which the Ministers alledge of S. Augustine by which they proue that the bodie of Christ must necessarily be in a place certaine the Ministers bring yet for more ample confirmation the 4. booke and 10. distinction of the Maister of the Sentences who recyting the selfe-same passage of S. Augustine vseth the verbe Oportet and not Potest As touching that of Iustine which the Doctors alledge to proue the myracles which were then done that Iesus Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples the gates being shut and that hee walked vpon the waters were done in his person The Ministers are amazed how the Doctors doo yet repeate the same For as much as the said Iustine as they haue before beene answered expresly saith that when the said myracles were done there was no chaunge of the body of Iesus Christ which thing had the myracles bene done in his person had bene necessarie In the meane time the Ministers confesse as they haue done often that the cause of the said myracles and the diuine power whence they proceeded abode in Iesus Christ As when hee healed the diseased which touched him and did the other myracles recyted in the Euangelicall Histories the which were done by him but not in him but in the person of them that weâ—â— healed And there is great difference betweene such myracles and those of his transfiguration and resurrection which were wrought by his onely power and in his proper person Vpon the importunate repetition which the Doctors make as well of the meanes of the birth of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the word Aphantos The Ministers for sparing of time and not troubling the readers send them back to their former answeres The Ministers much maruel that the Doctors to proue their pretended penetration of two bodies and of their measures wil ground their proofe and principal argument vpon the proper signification of the terme Penetrer For be it so that they will by this French word interpret the Greeke word Dierchestas or the Latine word Penetrare It shall bee euer impossible to proue their pretence And as it is also in the Acts of the Apostles Chap. 12. 10. It is said of the Angell and S. Peter that they passed the first and second watch And in S. Luke 4. 30. But they passed through the middest of them and departed And in S. Io. 4. 4. Now it behoued him to passe by Samaria In all which passages the Doctors shall not find that the word Dierchestai in the said passages alledged can bee any way applied to the penetration of dimensions And no more shall they proue that the word Penetrare which the old Translator hath vsed in the 2. Tymo 3. can be reduced to their said penetration The Ministers do adde that the Doctors ought not to hold it more straunge that Iesus Christ ascending into heauen in his finite and limited body an opening were made for his entrance therin then when he descendeth betweene the hands of the Priests singing their Masses For then as saith S. Gregorie the heauens do open to giue him passage Although after their imagination his body is then seperated from it measures and dimensions The Doctors should haue contented
there in such an estate that then the graces of God be multiplied increased and more and more confirmed in him So that Circumcision brought not vnto Abraham a new righteousnesse but sealed and ratified that which by the promise was communicated before vnto him Which the faithfull knowing in what degree of vertue they bee yet ought they not to contemne the holy Supper nor any way to abstaine from it when occasion and meanes serue them to be there Considering that they cannot be so promoted nor aduaunced in the knowledge and feare of God and in the faith of his promises that they may not yet growe and profit in what estate soeuer they be by the meanes which God hath therefore left and ordained in his Church And impossible it is for a man hauing true faith in his heart to do otherwise seeing hee hath the commoditie thereof For as much as the nature of faith is not to apprehend the promises of God onely but also to engender and bring forth in the heart of the faithfull a will to obey him and keep his commaundements and ordinances For answere to the first Article which the Doctors propose touching their Masse the Ministers say that the Doctors do openly blaspheme Iesus Christ to authorise with his name and by his example such an abhomination And that they also mocke the Church the world in preaching and writing such Impieties For answere to the second Article of the Masse the Ministers say that there is in the Church no other sacrifice by which men are reconciled to God and which maketh him mercifull and fauourable towards them by appeasing his wrath then that onely and alone which Iesus Christ hath once offered vpō the Crosse to his Father The vertue wherof being eternall to sanctifie all beleeuers and to obtain vnto them for euer remission and abolishment of sinnes there is no need of any other nor that which he hath once offered be euer reiterate For answere to the third Article the Ministers say that they which approue the Masse and other Priesthood then that of Iesus Christ and wil establish for remission of sinnes an other sacrifice then that he himselfe with his body vpon the Crosse offered are Antichrists and abolish as much as in them lyeth all the vertue and fruite of the death sacrifice of the sonne of God For answere to the fourth Article the Ministers do alledge what S. Paul writeth to wit That where remission is there is no more offering for sinne Now so it is that by the death of Iesus Christ remission hath bene obtained for vs as by infinit passages of scripture appeareth It followeth then that there is no more oblation for sin neither in the Masse nor out of the Masse And if there be none for the liuing lesse is there for the dead For answere to the fift the Ministers maintaine that the Communion is of the essence of the Supper as S. Paul sheweth in the first of the Corinthians 10. and 11. Chapters And as it is carried by the Cannon it selfe and other things about the Masse For answere to the sixt the Ministers say three things First that the Popish Masse is no Sacrament then that the body of Iesus Christ is not there And therof conclude that then the bread and wine there remaining ought not to be adored which being creatures cannot be adored but that they which adore them be Idolators For answere to the seuenth and last Article the Ministers say contrary to the Doctors that there is not any thing in the Masse which is not either directly or indirectly contrary to the word of God The Ministers for conclusion admonish the Doctors entreat them not to depart as they haue formerly done out of the bounds of the matter now proposed for disputation To the end that these two points which are now in debate betweene them may be wholly and perfectly decyded to the content and edification of them that shall reade the Acts of this conference Tuesday the 30. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid A briefe Reply of the Doctors against the last Answer of the Ministers to them sent by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the first of August about seuen or eight of the clocke in the euening 1566. THe Doctors after their resolution giuen vpon the Artice of Gods Omnipotency were not determined to returne any more therevnto as hauing sufficiently handled that matter But the horrour they haue of the new blasphemies contained in the last writing of the Ministers hath incyted them contrary to their purpose although not to reply at the least to admonish the Ministers and the reader of this present Conference of the said execrable blasphemies which they are constrained to confesse that will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar but dare therby deny the power of God himself The consideration wherof as the Doctors hope wil not only cōfirme the Catholikes in the faith of the said article but also by Gods assistance wil bring back many which are strayed separating themselues from the Church Catholike whē they shall vnderstand the detestable errors blasphemies which do follow the contradiction of the reall presence of the body and bloud of our Lord in the Sacrament Which also should serue for the conuersion of the Ministers themselues would they without passiō examine the reasons acts which haue bene proposed vnto them touching the power of God and sincerely iudge therof as resisting the holy spirit in stead of acknowledging their errors they are turned to all maner of reproach and iniury against them which of good will would admonish them and haue taxed them that they tended not but to roote them out Which thing the Doctors neuer minded and desire not but the saluation of the Ministers of all those that are seperated from the true Catholike Church Of which their preachings shall beare witnesse wherein they ordinarily exhort the people to pray vnto God for them True it is that they require the extirpatiō of the kingdome of Sathan and the rooting out of all heresies and peruerse doctrine rather by the preaching of Gods word then by all other meanes And they wonder why the Ministers are so pricked against them in their two last answeres seeing they haue giuen them no occasion thereof but haue taken it lightly for no other reason but because the Doctors haue written that many propositions set forth by the Ministers contained blasphemies which they should content themselues to denie or to proue that there are none and leaue the iudgement thereof to the readers without entering into such hotte coller seeing they professe to bee so much mortified patient and modest that albeit one should reproach them they would not reproach againe They should also well remember the faire tytles with which they honour the Catholique doctrine as with the name of superstition Idolatrie impietie abhomination and many other like yea not sparing
that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there For as much as there is no man so ignorant who hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript but doth presently inferre that then it is comprised in a place certaine As touching the Camell if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written in his first booke against the Pelagians who expounding the words of Iesus Christ saith as followeth In this hath the Lord not said that it may be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth it will also follow that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle And alledge not vnto me Abraham and the others which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich and which being such were entered into the kingdome of heauen because they well vsing their riches and imploying them to good workes haue by that meane ceased to be rich Behold what S. Ierome writeth Thē as it is necessary after the saying of S. Ierome that for the saluation of the rich man there be a mutation and changing in his heart yea and that hee cease to be rich to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen so also it behoueth that there be a chaunge in the Camell and that hee cease to be such that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle As touching the article following the Ministers say that by the grace of God they may discerne the light from darknesse and falshood from truth Which is the cause that they cannot approue neither the arguments nor conclusions of the Doctors touching the being of one body in many places at one instant being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue not else-where proceedeth then from the spirit of error and falshood Which wil retaine by that meane the impietie and Idolatrie which hee hath formerly established in the world to the ruine almost of all Christendome As touching the verbe Dierchesthai the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them not vpon any authoritie of the scripture To that which the Doctors alledge to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues not wholy of God that Nemo credit nisivolēs to wit that none beleeueth but willingly the Ministers answer that vnder our Maisters correction it is nought to the purpose for as much as this will and consent is of God who worketh in the faithfull both the will and the deed Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles verie well teacheth where he saith That when God calleth men to saluation he findeth not in them any good will at all but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts if he wil finde it there And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge that we are coworkers with God serueth nothing for their purpose For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery And meant no other thing then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths in these words We are Embassadors for Christ as if God exhorted by vs. And touching that which they adde that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time The Ministers say yea As they haue shewed in their former writings where the passages of S. Augustine Ad Dardanum and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn and others haue bene alledged The Ministers answere not but to two points onely of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement The first is that theyr Sermons theyr writings theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed the care which they and the Superintendents haue to discouer reprooue and correct them the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered and the publique prayers which in all places they make to these endes defend them with all good people and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors The second is that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued in that they haue said that Abraham doubted of the promise Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth Where in these proper termes he saith And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe but was strengthened in the faith and gaue glorie vnto God For answere to the Doctors last Obiection made as they say agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question vppon the matter of the Supper Although the sayd Doctors do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper and of the Masse yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement that they haue not hetherto retyred and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon of his will and desire to bring them therevnto yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them that all other thinges set apart they would in good earnest conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid Which thing the Ministers perceiuing and not desiring to depart from them without conference first had therof haue often protested to dispute no more with them till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode as well of the one as of the other to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses they would gainsay and withstand The Doctors hauing dissembled the same in stead of pursuing of them doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors neuerthelesse to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions But now in stead of following theyr Answeres and impugning of them if any way they could they propose againe newe questions no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes they doo in the meane time what in them possiblie lyeth to drawe them from the Conference thereof to the ende it may breake off before that this matter be cleared By meanes whereof the Ministers for conclusion and
there is diuersitie betweene the creatures and Creator and that the Creator by nature is euery where and naturally the creatures be not in diuers places the Doctors reuerently imbrace the authoritie of the holy Fathers But to produce the said places for coÌ„firmation of a thing so well knowne and not doubted of their trauell was now needlesse But the Doctors yet attend one sole place of the scripture or one sole testimony of the auncient Fathers which saith That God cannot make one body to be in diuers places The Doctors pray the Ministers that with like reuerence they receiue the auncient Fathers chiefly touching the interpretation of holy scriptures whose exposition as are the places aboue cyted shal be agreed vpon betweene them and the Ministers Vpon request made to the Lord Neuers on the behalfe of the Ministers that hee would please to assigne a day for answere particularly to all and euery article and slaunders here aboue proposed by the Doctors in their obiection The said Lord ordained that the Ministers should carry with them that euening one of the Copies of the Doctors obiections against them to be ready the next morrow by noone to answer thervnto which the Doctors agreed vnto And made likewise request to the said Lord of Neuers to haue leaue if it so seemed them good to reply to the answers that the Ministers should make And therwith to deliuer their resolution touching this article of the omnipotency of God To th' end to proceed and examine the reall truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar Whervnto the Ministers added that they also for their parts would deliuer a briefe resolution of all that which shall be deduced by them The company assembled on the morrow beeing Wednesday the 17. of Iuly My Lord of Neuers considering that the Doctors the day before had imployed all the time without any left for the Ministers to make present answere to them supposed no lesse time would be needfull for the Ministers to answerefully which had bene a thing tedious and irksome For this cause and others by him declared he ordained they should thenceforth speake by writing And that the Ministers should carry with them the Copie which was giuen them to make answere therevnto and to send it vnto him signed by them and two Notaries Of which he would cause a Copie to be written by his Secretary to giue it to the Doctors reseruing the Originall to himselfe And in like sort would he keepe for the Ministers the Copie of that which the Doctors should send him Wherevnto both parts submitting themselues they disputed afterwards by writing as followeth The Answere of the Ministers to the Obiections of the Doctors giuen on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly 1566. THe Ministers deny that the consequence proposed by the Doctors to wit God cannot make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant Therfore â—e is not omnipotent is necessary For as much as the omnipotency of God ought not to be measured but by the things only which be agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his nature or to his wisdome or to his truth or to the order he established in the world Vnto which that directly repugneth which the Doctors set forth that one selfe same body at one selfe-same instant may be in diuers places For it would follow that a body should be a body without being limitted And by consequence that it should be and not be altogither For the measures as to be long large thicke and to be bounded limitted with certaine bounds are so essentiall to a body that without that it is no more a body And so farre of is it that the Ministers in so saying do diminish the omnipotency of God that contrariwise they establish the same and will not attribute to him any mutabilitie and chaunge in his counsaile nor any contradiction in his will for feare to make him lye which by the scripture is impossible to him And where the Doctors alledge froÌ„ the Fathers that they haue not denied the omnipotency of God The Ministers haue heretofore shewed that they haue and in what case it may happen Tertullian in his booke written against Praxeas speaking of this matter saith as followeth Surely nothing is hard vnto God But if without iudgemeÌ„t we wil vse this sentence and interpret it according to our foolish fantasie we may faine all things to be of God and say that he hath done them because he can do them Now must it not be beleeued because he can do all things that therfore he hath done what he hath not done but enquired whether he hath done it And finally concludeth that the power of God is his wil and his inhabilitie likewise his vnwillingnesse The Doctors then to shew that he can do it should declare that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe-same instant hath bin in diuers places And a maruellous thing it is that they impute to the Ministers that they derogate from the omnipotency of God when as they do except froÌ„ the same what is contrary to his wil seeing they themselues do confesse it and except the same things And that there is no other difference between theÌ„ the Ministers but that they say that God maketh one body to be in diuers places at one selfe instaÌ„t because he can do it And the Ministers say that he doth it not and cannot do it because he wil not do it For as much as is said according to Tertullian the power of god is his wil. Touching the reason that the Doctors do alledge in Phisosophie to proue that a bodie for being a bodie doth not therfore leaue to be in diuers places The Ministers say they suppose a falshood To wit that quantitie is accidentall and not essentiall to a body For that to wit that a body is measured bounded and circumscript is in such sort of it essence that without that it is no more a bodie As S. Augustine him selfe speaking of the glorified body of Iesus Christ saith That if space be taken away from a body there is no more place where it might be and by consequence being no part is no more at all The reaso of Philosophie they propose touching the first heauen as that it is not in any place The Ministers do denie it for to speake according to the language of the scripture it must be confessed that there is place eâ—en aboue the heauens As Iesus Christ said vnto his Disciples I go to prepare a place for you And in the same place In my Fathers house there are many mansions And else where Where I am taking the present time for the future there shal my seruants be In the which sentence must be obserued that there be aduerbes of place And S. Augustine writing to Dardanus expresly saith That it behoueth that the body of Iesus Christ be in some place in heaueÌ„ because it is a true