seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
can all the Doctors Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in any one mans heart It is the worke of the heauenly teacher that is the holy Ghost which Augustine ingeniously confesseth Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract 3. in Ioan. epist aures percutit magister intus est c. The sound of our words beateth the eares the minister is vvithin Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man We may admonish by the noise of our voice if there be not to teach within our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren Haue ye not all heard this Sermon How manie will depart hence vntaught For my part I haue spoken to all but to whom that annointing speaketh not within whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within they depart vntaught Teachings that are outward are some helpes and admonitions He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts Thus farre Augustine Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them as our Sauiour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them and on the Sabbaoth day opening Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay withall he opened their hearts that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading and preached to him Iesus when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome is also the spirit of adoption and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption haue receiued also the spirit of adoption and he that hath not the spirit of Christ is none of his so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation all that doe knowe that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and by beleeuing haue life through his name haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding to knowe the things that are giuen them of God and vvhat that hope is of his calling and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist 3. the Scriptures are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life And in another place Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth as a familiar friend it speaketh without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith Yea but say you when euerie one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture what other do teach and so admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures a priuate interpretation When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself by searching the scriptures did he referre them to a priuate interpretation when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a priuate interpretation By this which you call priuate interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches examples be taken from the more manifest and some testimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine In obscure places where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture Augustine admits to giue reason to the sense we bring but saieth he This custome is dangerous it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scriptures De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search either let such sense be made of it as hath no coÌ„trouersie or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture vvheresoeuer the witnesses thereof can be found and applied Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides we must learne to knowe the scriptures for the sense of the scripture is the scripture yea and Christ himselfe by the tradition of the Church and receiue such a sense of scriptures and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall deliuer vnto vs not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture the infallible touchstone of all spirits by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn 5. 39. Galat. â— 8. be tryed If this be not a priuate interpretation there can be none found in the world PAPIST To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church Therefore S. Austen saieth I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund cap. 4. caÌ„not in this question euer giue coÌ„tent either to themselues or other if they take any other course For where do they finde in the whole Bible that S. Iames his Epistle for example is Canonical scripture is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it But faine would I know how they can according to their principle which is to beleeue nothing but scripture proue this point against Luther out of the scripture most certaine it is they cannot and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle may be said of any other part of the Bible if one be disposed to deny it Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures conâ—rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas indâ—ed by the holy Ghost vvhat man of reason can denie but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture which is not We therefore that interprete them as the church teach vs haue the
bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
such like women as followed our Sauiour Christ and ministred vnto him and his of their substance For what power or authoritie Luk. 8. 3. had the Apostles to leade about such women after them but to leade about a wife they had power Besides the purpose of the Apostle is to shew that himselfe and Barnabas had right to put the Church to more charge by leading such a one about with them but if he had meant such women as following them in their iourneies ministred vnto them of their substance to haue such in their company had beene an ease and no charge to the Church the contrarie whereof the Apostle plainely expresseth in giuing reason why he and Barnabas might haue done so Who goeth a warfare at any time of his owne cost c. If vve haue sowen vnto you Verse 33. spirituall things is it a great matter if we reape your carnall The Church therefore of their carnal substance must haue borne the charge of such a sister lead about and therfore no doubt Math. 8. 14. the Apostle meant a wife who going with her husband there could be nothing said against it and for her husbands sake the Church must also prouide for her To which charge because the Apostle put them not when hee might haue done it hee hath therefore the more to say in his owne defence Fourthly the Scripture recording of Peter that hee was maried and auncient writers that other of the Apostles and Disciples were maried namely Ambrose in 2. Cor. 11. All the Apostles excepting Iohn and Paul had vvines and Eusebius hâ—st Eccles lib. 30. cap. 30. out of Clemens Alexandrinus of Peter Philip and as he saith Paul the Apostles words directly point at that liberty in them in the words as well as other Apostles and the brethren of the Lord and Cephas And verie plainly out of the report that Eusebius maketh out of Clemens euery maÌ„ may see that in those times the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken for a wife Paul saith hee in a certaine Epistle maketh mention of his wife whom hee therefore did not lead about with him that more easily and freelie he might performe his ministerie Howbeit if Paul were vnmaried yet is it no corruption so to translate his words for as much as hee had that libertie though he vsed it not Lastly you knowe that the Scripture saith Mariage is honourable amongst all men and the bed vndefiled What more Heb. 13. 4. cleare and full allowance can there be that Priests may lawfully marie except you will say that priesthood depriueth them of the honour of Gods ordinance which he hath sanctified to all men Hauing generall and speciall warrant for Priests mariage besides the place in question what need we force it you rather haue forced single life vpon Gods Ministers against his manifest word PAPIST If theÌ„ they be learned malition flie corrupt the text who wil trust them with the interpretation as for vnlearned Protestants how can they gather a true sense out of a corrupted sentence can a streight line be drawen by a crooked Rule PROTESTANT Nay rather if the Popish Rabbies haue first set vp many a crooked practise both in doctrine and Gods worship and then will haue the line of interpretotion drawen by the crooked rule of Popish practise secundum currentem Ecclesiae sensum Who will trust them to be interpreters of scriptures who are conspired to maintaine whatsoeuer their Synagogue hath corruptly practised For how can a streight line be drawen by a crooked rule or how can the vnlearned Papists haue any meanes to trie the true interpretatioÌ„ of scriptures euen in matters necessarie to saluation who must of necessity sel their soules into the hands of Popish Hucksters to receiue whatsoeuer sense of scriptures they thrust vpon them and aboue all must receiue Popish practise as their Creede and as the practise changeth so must the sense of Scriptures change and be one to day another to morrowe one this yeare another the next according to Cusanus his rule Intellectus currit cumpraxi The vnderstanding of the scriptures runneth with the practise which practise interpreteth the Nicol. Cusan de author eccles Conc. Sup. et cont scriptu scripture at one time after one sort at another time after another sort This is the constancie of Popish faith whereof Papists boast so much PAPIST Out of the premisses we may learne the cause why we haue such vnity in faith to be for that we acknowledge an infallible Iudge for the expounding of the Scriptures and though in other thinges wee haue dissention as fell out likewise betwixt Saint Paul and Barnabas and no time hath been free from such scandals yet we keep all one and the same Catholike faith through the world and the cause why the Protestants haue such mortal dissention in matters of faith without all hope of agreement is for that they acknowledge 1 Ioh. 4. 1. not any infallible and certaine Iudge for the interpretation of the scriptures For they will be tried by nothing but by the Scripture and if we presse them that the scriptures may be falsly expounded theÌ„ they repaire to the spirit and if we tell theÌ„ of Iohn that we must not beleeue euery spirit then for trial of the spirit back againe they post to the scripture and so if they be vrged on forward they runne round froÌ„ the scripture to the spirit froÌ„ the spirit to the scripture world without end And so whilest their spirits agree not togeither we see them about manie articles of faith as about the descending of Christ into hell about the lawfulnesse of Archbishops and Bishops like the campe of the Madianites to haue turned their weapons to mutuall destruction and to lie lugging together Iudges 7. by the eares in endlesse brawles and contentions PROTESTANT If it were true that you boast of that you haue such vnity of your Popish faith yet could you from such vnity no better proue the truth of your Religion then from the consent of the Israelites erecting the calfe in the wildernes or from the consent of the Iewish Synagogue against our Sauiour Christ crying Crucific him crucifie him or from the consent of all Israel in the daies of Achab and Iezabel being confederate against Elias alone you can prooue that the Calfe was the God that brought the people out of the land of Egypt or that Baal was the true God or that our Sauiour Christ was a deceiuer as the high Priestes termed him Of such vnity God hath forewarned vs to take heede by the Prophet Esay Say ye not a confederacie to all them to whom this people saieth a confederacie but rather to the law and to the testimonie Esa 8. 12. vers 20. ver 9 against which though the people be gathered together in beapes they shall be broken in peeces and though they take counsell together yet it shall bee brought to nought though they pronounce
saith Chrysostome and by the commaundement of Christ But Papists admit no triall of their faith but by themselues they are the Church The Pope is the supreame Pastor he that will not heare this Church and this Pastor is held Anathema as an heathen or Publican What is this else but that which Chrysostome saieth they ruling the Church doe openlie and licentiouslie subuert the Church for they prescribe their owne practise for the rule of faith and take away all indifferent meanes of triall and will be both makers and iudges of faith This is the confession of their faith that they are the Church and you must beleeue it and therefore beleeue that all is true which they say whatsoeuer interpretation of the scriptures they deliuer it is the true sence of the scriptures what heresie by this prescription may not be maintained yea what trial of spirits is left to the Church if any one spirit must be thus beleeued without submission to be tried by the Scriptures Come to their conuersation Are not their fruites vvoâ—nds troubles and manifold mischiefes deposing of Princes inciting of subiects to rebellions procurement of forraine inuasions impoysonings and murthers of Princes and all that stand in their light threatnings of stabbings and cutting of throats finally vnderminings of Parliaments and conueâ—ances of powder to blowe vp King Queene Prince Nobles Bishops Iudges Commons that without any distinction euen in a moment Can they charge Protestants whoÌ„ they call heretikes with such sauage wooluish ye diuellish hâ—llish and stygian practises They draw vnto them all the sonnes of Belial whom they can intise out of all protestant kingdomes and states to make continuall imployment of them to worke the subuersion of their natiue Countries to infect with butcherly and Scithâ—an crueltie the mindes of subiects by desperate furies to drive men to infamous and vntimely temporall deaths and to eternall damnatioÌ„ not caring what become of their bodies or soules so their turnes be serued Can the religion of Protestants be stained with such barbarous and bestiall crueltie They receiue the Sacrament in way of obligation to commit murders to practise rebellions to subuert kingdomes yea they promise before hand and graunt great pardons to such as they procure to vndertake such villanies They make Martyrs of those who for barbarous treasons rebellions and murthers haue iustly suffered such punishment as they deserued both by the law of God and man Are these the works of sheepe or of woolues By their fruites therefore you shall knowe them they are on euery side full of sharpe and cruell prickles If they speake they equiuocate if they be silent there are seauen abhominations in their hearts as the sequele hath euer prooued if they be angry they are mad nothing will serue but inuasions rebellions poysonings powder treasons and all maner fell and cruell practises If they be patient they waite a time to hurt and in the meane time they are preparing some mischiefe as manifold experience hath prooued and the sunne hath often seene If they do euill they are not ashamed as the desperate obstinacie of the late powder traytors shewed If they do any thing well they doe it for vaine glory to beseene of men and to get a name to themselues Is this the Church whereof euery man must be a member or else he cannot be saued is this the Catholike faith is this to liue according to the faith will any man be so blinded that for loue or zeale to such a Synagogue or for awe or feare of the curse of such cursed workers he will refuse to ioyne with the Protestants in their seruice Sacraments My deare brethren put no trust in any childe of man which by Augustines confession our Sauiour Christ forbiddeth Pin not your saluation vpon his sleeue that may go to hell himselfe I meane the Pope Beware of them that outwardly weare onely sheepes clothing but inwardly are very rauening Woolues as you finde by their fruits Trust not them that will be tried for their truth and honestie by none but themselues suspect their honestie that shut vp the Scriptures from you which our Sauiour Christ coÌ„manded all men to search Finally inquire whether Christ or any Apostle or any holy Councel or Father did euer put poyson sword or powder into mens hands to murther the sacred persons of Kings to ruinate whole Kingdomes and to promote the faith of Christ by poyson sword and fire If you finde any such president hearken to this forcible reasoner and all other Iesuites and Seminaries refuse our Churches our seruice and Sacraments If not disclaime that religion that faith that seruice that Sacrament that serueth to combine such conspiracies that must get vp and prosper by such monstrous and endlesse crueltie God of his mercie open your eyes that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ Iesus may shine vnto you that you may be able to discerne the mysterie of iniquitie which of long time hath wrought in the Kingdome of Antichrist that you may knowe the synagogue of Satan from the Church of Christ and at length come out from Babylon and escape the wrath present and to come and finally be saued by the only faith of Iesus Christ to whom be glory for euer Amen FINIS
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
scriptures indeede and the Protestants that do othervvise be destitute of the true sense of the vvord of God PROTESTANT The summe of this Argument is this Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scriptures the same we haue to know the true sense of them For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures and refusing them But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures but by â—â—e authoritie of the Church For no man can prooue against Luther that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall but by the authoritie of the Church and Austen Jaith I would not beleeue c. Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the anthority of the Church First then as before hath bin noted Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church which you will now haue to be the onely meanes Secondly in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scripture and the true sense thereof The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures nor sense to the Scriptures but being taught of God in both giues witnesse of both to her owne children and euen to those that are without and by the ministrie and meanes of her testimonie they to whom the Scriptures were before vnknown begin to receiue them and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them by that gift of interpretation which God hath giuen to his Church yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher and of greater authority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts Iesus the sonne of Ioseph when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth doth not inforce his owne authority but bids him come see so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures of the true sense of them bids all men come and see Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit to know the maiestie and authority of them after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubtted word of God in them to search the true meaning of theÌ„ as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged and in the very booke by you quoted for shewing how the Manichees teach how the Church teacheth thus he writeth Whatthinke you we must iudge or do but to forsake theÌ„ who inuite Contr. epist Fun. cap. 14. vs to know things certaine and after coÌ„mand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine the very right description of the Popish church And follow theÌ„ who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to looke into that when we are waxen stronger in faith we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde Wherby that former sentence of Augustine so commonly alleaged by the Papists receiues plaine interpretation Ego non crederem c. Euery word almost in the sentence hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures Ego that is I being a Manichee hauing not yet searched the scriptures nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell Non crederâ—m that is would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor aâ—uÌ„ doth shew namely cap. 9. For faith he true religion vnlesse those things De vtil creden ad ionorat cap. 15. be beleeued which if a man behaue himselfe well and be worthie he may aftervvard attaine to vnderstand vvithout some great commande of authoritie can by no meanes bee vvell entred into For as he saieth in the same booke betweene mans foolishnes and the most sincere truth of God Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing for a vvise man is to follovve God a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man yet as Augustine there sayeth not to put his trust in men but onely in the sonne of God the sincere eternall vnchangeable wisdome of God whereunto onely we ought to sticke who for our sakes namely to become our Teacher vouch safed to take vpon him mans nature Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke though hauing to deale with a Manichee hee saieth he will omit to speake of it as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in theÌ„ he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie For otherwise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture before the authority of the catholike Church If peraduenture saith he you can finde any thing in the Gospell verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes and before if so manifest truth be shovved that Cap. 4. it cannot come into doubt it ought to bee preferred before all those things by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church 3. Catholice Ecclesiae meanes hee the Catholike church of all times or rather the Catholike church of the first times who hauing receiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity At whose hand Augustine receiued them not vpon their onely testimony but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures What his meaning is in this behalfe let Augustine himselfe declare Beleeue saith he this booke to be Matthewes which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh by course of Contr. Faustrâ— Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this purpose there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors which were neuer theirs as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his How are these descried Therefore are they refused saith Augustine because either they did not agree to those writings which were manifestly knowen to be theirs or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote nor were commended to posteritie by themselues or those that were most familiar with them and specially of Hippocrates his bastard
goe hee neuer went into hell of the damned where the faithfull neuer come And therefore to conclude Augustine though he translate in inferno and ex inferno meaneth onely the graue or at the largest the Region of death whither the dead goe Say not then that we translate graue against Christs descending into hell wee may with Augustine translate hell and yet with him not meane the hell of the damned but the common hell of the dead PAPIST Likewise to auoide the descending of Christ into hell for the delâ—uerie of the olde Fathers they translate thus Christ hath once suffered for sinnes the iust for the vniust that hee might bring vs to God and was put to death concerning the flesh but was quickened 1. Pet. 3. 18. by the spirit by which also hee went and preached to the spirits that are in prison In which short sentence be three corruptions to wit By the spirit for In the spirit By the which for in the which and Are in prison for were in prison Corruptions I say they are as I appeale for triall to their former translation and of purpose to denie that Christ in soule or spirit did descend to the Fathers that were in Limbo or as it is heere said in prison when S. Peter wrote his Epistle as by forcing in the word Are in steede of Were they would haue the Reader thinke then wére they not deliuered by Christes descension as we teach and S. Peter in this place PROTESTANT It is strange to see how you are blinded and oppressed with a spirit of slumber that you cannot discerne how impossible it is to fit this place to your Limbus First if Abrahams bosome be this imagined limbus neither may these disobedient in the dayes of Noe whom the Scripture calleth the world of the vngodly 2. Pet 2. 5. be placed in Abrahams bosome being for eating and drinking and all sensuality more like to the rich glutton then to Abraham neither may the olde Fathers for whose deliuerance Luk. 21. Christ descended as you say be branded with the note of disobedience to whom the holy Ghost beareth witnesse that they died in the faith and had good report for their faith This Heb. 11. 13. 39. place therefore speaking of Christes comming in the Spirit and preaching to the Spirits that were disobedient in the daies of Noe cannot be applied to the Fathers in Abrahams bosome which also very vnfitly may be termed a prison Secondly if it be yeelded that Christ went in soule to the place called Abrahams bosome as we denie not but he did it being all one with that Paradise wherein Christ promised that the penitent theefe should be with him yet if your Limbus be in the Region of hell a border of hell Christ could not descend into it when he went into Abrahams bosome for betweene Hell and Abrahams bosome there is a great Chaos or as Augustine saith Quidam biatus multum ea separans Epist 99. ad Eâ—od a certaine wide gap much separating them a wide space of distance that none can come out of the one Region into the other and therefore Augustine resolueth that Abrahams bosome which is an habitation of a kinde of secret quietnes or rest is at no hand to be thought or beleeued to be any part â—â—â—â—ll In so much that if the Scripture had said that Christ when he died went into Abrahams bosome Augustine meruaileth whether anie man would haue beene so bolde as out of such words to affirme that Christ descended into hell Thirdly Augustine beating his head about that place as Euodius offered it vnto him namely to see how it might be applied to Christes descending into hell findes so many difficulties in it that hee wisheth Euodius rather to consider whether the whole place belong nothing at all to hell but rather to those times the paterne whereof Peter applied to the times present to shew that those which now beleeue not the Gospell preached are like those that beleeued not and perished in the daies of Noe. Thus applying the place to the example of those daies Non suspicemur saith Augustine quod apud inferos ad faciendos fideles atque liberandos Euangelium predicatum sit Let vs not imagine that the Gospell vvas preached in hell to make men faithfull and to deliuer them as if anie Church vvere there To the other sense which Euodius had taken hold of from others Augustine saith The author of at seemes to haue beene drawen because Peter said hee preached to the Spirits that vvere shut vp in prison as if saith he it might not be vnderstoode of their soules vvho then were shut vp in the darknes of ignorance as in a prison to whoÌ„ then liuing the building of the Ark by Noe was after a sort a preaching before the sloud as at this day the daily building of Gods Church is a preaching to the vnbeleeuers before the day of iudgement and so those times are a paterne of these Thus hauing answered this obiection he proceedeth to answere another that might be made against this latter sense namely that Christ in those times was not come and therefore could not then preach Let this trouble no man saith Augustine Nondum enim venerat scilicet in carne veruntamen ab initio generis humani ipse vtique non in carne sed in spiritu veniebat quod autem dixi in spiritu veniebat Et ipse quidem filius in substantia deitatis quoniam corpus non est vtique Spiritus est Christ saith Augustine vvas not then come to vvit in the flesh Howbeit from the beginning of mankinde hee came not indeede in the flesh but in the spirit and that vvhich I said he came in the Spirit is thus to be vnderstood that the sonne of man in the substance of his godhead because he is not a bodie is vvithout doubt a spirit This saith Augustine the verie vvords of Scripture in hand doe sufficientlie manifest to them that take diligent heede vnto them and then repeating the words of the text maketh this paraphrase of his owne Christus mortificatus carne viuificatus autem spiritu In quo spiritu adueniens praedicauit illis spiritibus qui incredali fuerant alâ—quando in diebus Noe quoniam priusquam veniret in carne pro nobis moriturus quod semel fecit saepè antea veniebat in spiritu ad quos volebat visis eos admoneus sicut volebat vtique in spiritu quo spiritu viuificatus est quum in passione esset carne mortificatus Quid est enim quod viuificatus est spiritu nisi quod eadem caro qua sola fuerat mortificatus viuificante spiritu resurrexit Christ saith he was mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirit in vvhich spirit he came preached euen to those spirits which had bene sometime disobedient in the daies of Noe for before he came in the flesh to die for vs vvhich he did once he came many times before
and in sin hath my mother conceiued me it conuinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of Psal 51. 5. mans heart is onely euill continuallie that in vs that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it prooues vs to be dead in trespasses and sinnes and therefore to be the children of wrath Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will of all presumption Gen. 6. 5. of our owne righteousnes and is the most vniuersal schoolmaister to lead all men vnto Christ In this so high a principle of faith I say your Church and his children hauing either no faith at all or a faith of many colours and manie Eph. 2. 1. 3. shapes notwithstanding your infallible iudge boast no longer of your one and the same Cutholike faith in all the world Your vaine and foolish contumelie which you cast vpon the Protestants that for triall of the scriptures they repaire to the spirit and for triall of the spirit post backe againe to the scripâ—â—res and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spirit and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end bewraies in you great ignorance of our doctrine For we diuide not the Spirit from the Scriptures nor the Scriptures from the Spirit that we should be faine to runne or go from the one to the other onely in the Scriptures we heare or learne of the Spirit whatsoeuer we know in the Scriptures we know it by the teaching of Gods Spirit that speaketh in them whatsoeuer we learne of the Spirit we learne it by and out of the Scriptures when we repaire to the Sriptures we repaire to the Spirit and when we go to enquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures If the God of this worlde had not blinded your eies that the light of this truth cannot shine vnto you you would neuer haue vpbraided vs with posting to and fro and running round But because you tell vs of roundes I pray you see what roundes your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion you giue out this conclusion as an article Subesse roâ—â—no Poâ—tifici omni creaturae est Extr. com de Ma. ior c. obed â—nam Sactam de necessitate salutis To be subiect to the Pope of Roâ—â—e is nâ—cessaerie to saluation for euerie creature we require you to proue it you alleage that the Pope is the heade of the vniuersal Church we yet aske for proofe you bring vs Tues Peirus super hane petraÌ„ c. Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wil build my Church tibi dabo claues to thee I wil giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen pasce oues me as feed my sheep feed my lambes We tell you Peter is one stone in the building but no rock or if you will needes haue a rocke his confession or Christ whom heconfessed is the rocke or foundation whereon the Church is builded we tell you the keies were giuen to Peter not alone but to the rest of the Apostles and hee with them commanded to feede sheepe and lambes and further whatsoeuer was giuen to Peter extendeth not to the Pope who is not Peter you say that Peter receiued those honours for himselfe and his successors and that the Church is built vpon him and them as a rocke and that he for himselfe his successors receiued the keies and left them to the Pope of Rome who now is Shepheard ouer sheepe and lambes all this you will proue by the scriptures we râ—â—uire you to proue that the Scriptures haue this sense you fetch your proofe from the Fathers we bring the Fathers as cleerly yea more cleerely for our interpretation then you can for Concil Nicen. Conat Afric yours you thrust on forward to the CouÌ„cels we bring you the authority of Councels to make the Pope no more theÌ„ a peere among other Patriarkes yea to cutte him off from medling out of his Dioces now you post to Councels confirmed by the heade that is the Pope whom either with Conncels or without you make your only infallible Iudge Are you now where you began do you thus daunce in a rounde and tell vs of roundes The Pope is head of the vniuersall Church Who saith so the Scriptures who shall interpret the Scriptures the Fathers Fathers not agreeing who shall iudge betweene them Councels Councels agree not who then shall strike the stroke the Pope And so the Pope is heade of the Church because the Pope will be so With these rounds you haue made giddie and brai nesicke innumerable poore soules God in his mercie stablish their hearts with grace that their eies may see the pitte before they fall into it Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants haue such mortall dissention without any hope of agreement they are many you say reckon them that we see how many they be The descending of Christ into hell and the lawfulnes of Archbishops and Bishops Is the question about Archbishops Bishops a matter of faith among Papists it may well be so who hold the Popes supremacy for the first and chiefe yea in effect for all the articles of their faith but surely Protestants holde it onely for a matter of order appertaining to the externall gouernement of the Church which is farre from a matter of faith your many matters of faith then are come to but one and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all in your Romane Creede no nor yet receiued in the East Churches In. expos Symboli as Ruffinus affirmeth Sciâ—nauÌ„ est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Symbolo non habetur additum We must know that it is not found added in the Creede of the Romane Church neither is the canse receiued among the East Churches And being receiued there Epist 99. was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it Ruffinus takes it to be all one with Sepultus est he was buried Augustine De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap. as is afore shewed denies that Abrahams bosome is any part of holl and else where confesseth that neuer yet found that it is called hell where the soules of the righteous do rest And so little light can be founde of any such conceite as Papists De Christi anima lib. 4. cap. 5. haue of Christs descending into hell that Bellarmine saith Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi c. The presence of Christs soule to inlighten the Fathers with the diuine vision of him is not necessarie yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing He makes it not of necessity but of congruity and that but in seeming neither this is as touching the sense but a weake matter of faith to obiect vnto vs that we dissent about it For we dissent not about the words of the article but receiue it we are
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently