now he beginneth to be knowen and by the great credit and admiration you haue him in the more detestable will he be reputed as a seducer of such men as cannot content themselues wiâ—h such trueth as the scriptures containe but must haue a Prophét raysed vp out of FlauÌ„ders a banished man and one that dare not shew his face in any countrey openly and you had rather imbrace his noueltyes then the wholsome doctrine conteyned in the olde and new testament Vitell. NOw concerning his bookes they be of such Aucthoritye as he affirmeth them but where as you say that he sayth all is false and lyes whatsoeuer is taught c. marke wel what he writeth and adde nothing thereto and it shall be found true what he writeth more where as you say he commendeth the Pope and Cardenalls with the Masse and other ceremonyes there is none commended but in their right order if you marke the matter well Answere HIs bookes I affirmed that they were in crâ—dite amongest the familye of equall auâ—horitye with the scriptures and that they were written with the same spirite to this you auÌ„swere that they are of such aucthoritye as he hath affirmed thereforâ— note well what you say for neuer any since the Apostles tunes had so impudent a face as openly to publish such a detestable lye if this come not from the spirite of pride I know no proud bosting spirites all the Fathers in the primitiue Church euer reuerenced the holy scripture and submitted all their bookes thereunto Austen desired not to be credited or beleued but as his workes might agree with the holy scriptures all men in generall haue euer acknowledged themselues in their writinges to be subiect to error onely the scripture to be without blemish but this man will haue HN. and his bookes of equall aucthoritye with the scriptures written with the same spirite thus doe you runne from one impietye to an other and in the highest degree of blasphemye But I pray you looke vpon the matter better before you say he is a prophet now his bookes are of equal aucthoritye with the scripture whether will you lift vp your HN. aboue all condition of fraile man the higher he is exalted the more greuous will be his fall without repentaunce it is Luciferian pride thus to attribute vnto mortall man but you make HN to be a name of office and not of a creature such misteryes requireth falced where trueth and simplicitye imbraceth playne dealing Now you say that HN. doth auouch all to be false whatsoeuer is taught by any other therefore heare his owne wordes and then discerne and sée God his trueth and his godly and heauenly workes are vnknowen vnto all fleshe and vnto all fleshly and earthly men but it is geuen to the children of the kingdome the comminaltye of the Loue to vnderstand the secret misteryes thereof You say it will be found true what he writeth If none but the comminaltye or Familye of Loue doe vnderstaÌ„d the scripture then it was not rightly vnderstode before there was any mention of your Familye Now for commendatioÌ„ of the Pope Cardinals and Masse he sayth hee commendeth none buâ— in his right order this speach is ambigâ—us in his right order For simply I thinke none of them haue any shaddow of right order neither is their callinges nor doctrine grounded vpon either right or good order Your Author belyke alloweth the Masse or els he would not haue taken such paynes as to explicat euery ceremonye therein in his booke called A declaratioÌ„ of the Masse but thus with subtiltye of speach you would faine say somewhat to defend your Author be his sayinges neuer so monstrous Vitell. FOr in that booke named a ioyfull message of the kingdome of God Christ though ye deâ—idingly call it his gospell is declared that â—Papa signifieth an olde Father in the holy vndeâ—standing Now althogh he be not indued with the holy vnderstaÌ„ding yet is the name not the worse in it selfe For the Lord hath ordeined gouernours spirituall and temporall and they represent the maiestye of God although now certayne gouernours gouerne not according to the rule of righteousnes yet is not therefore the name euerthelesâ—e of reputation because it is an ordenance of God therefore let vs despise no name that belongeth to gouernours neither yet also any gouernour nor any man els for we haue all sinned haue neede of the grace or mercy of the Lord. Answere THe booke in lattin is called EuaÌ„gelium Regnâ— gospell of the kingdome but this man is the translator thereof and hath qualified it calling it a ioyfull message of the kingdome the title is arrogant and presumptuous the doctrine therein worse as will appere in print ere it be long the pope hath found among manâ— enemies one freÌ„d although his doctrine is spokeÌ„ against euery where yet this maÌ„ would gladly képe and retayne his bare name belonging to a gouernour in office we coÌ„deme not the name his doctrine not agrâ—â—ing with the word is by the same word condemned so is yours For significations of names â–ª wâ—e will not contend a part of your deuinity lyeth therein neither do wee despise any name but is euell doctrine be shadowed or vnder any name cloked then wee inuey agaynst the doctrine vsing the name as wheÌ„ inuectiues are made agaynst the Pope or HN. it is not ment of the persons but of the doctrine And surely the Pope did neuer exercise so great a Popedome in the West Church as your HN. a new Pope doth among you of his Familye and as the papistes which tooth and nayle seeke to maintayne euery absurd and senceles part of the popes doctrine with all their power witte and skill EueÌ„ so do ye of his Family maintayne your Nâ— and whatsoeuer vnsauery doctrine he teacheth it maâ— not be discredited nor he cannot therein erre or misse the right in such reputation haue you placed mortall man. You say we all haue sinned haue need of y grace or mercy of the Lord y all haue sinned you truely confes but that all doe dayely sinne you cannot beleue especially you the â—â—ders of the holy vnderstandinâ— but in humilitye of spirite you and wee ought to coÌ„fesse not onely that we haue sinned but dayely and hourely do sinne and haue neede not onely of his grace but his mercy also although you speake of grace or mercy but wee craue his grace and mercy his grace to guide vs and his mercy to deliuer vs. Vitell. MOreouâ—r you are greatly offended because hee sayeth that none shold take iâ— haÌ„d to teach or preach but the illuminate elders whiâ—h arâ— Godded with God or incoâ—poâ—atâ—d to God and with whom also God in one being and power of his spirite is hominisied or become man And those you call proud speaches and because â—N vseth them ye despise him althoughe they be no strange words or speches in thâ— dutâ—h language â–ª therfore in so doing you despiâ—e the
haue bent that poore skill and force I haue to displey these men with their doctrine There are many Right honorable that could better more learnedly haue confuted their doctrine but it is so vayne and childish that simple soules and meanely exersized in holy scripture are sufficiently instructed by the Lord to manifest all their abhommations The simplier sort of these men I take to be such as haue a desire to serue the Lord and yet is their simplicitye caryed away by the Elder sort or stronger men conference in my opinion is the best way to helpe the simple which the Elder sort can noâ— away withall least their trecheryes should be espied â—dad one of their writers geueth theÌ„ such a precept in his booke intituled a fruitfull exhortation to the Family of Loue in â— sextion But ye shall not contend or dispute with the blasphemers and the tanglers about the scripture nor with the apostates or decliners from vs and our good doctrine or with the selfe conceited wife nor yet with any of all those that bring in variaunce and make breach besides our good doctrine of the seruice of Loue. It appeareth Right honorable by this prohibition of this Elder that conference and disputation is forbidden them especially the Elder sort but the noâ—ces which are not enterid into the secret partes of their doctrine but are caryed away with a shew of pietye and good lyfe which at the beginning is opened vnto theÌ„ with fly and suttle perswasions that nothing els is sought at their handes but how the man might be made persite in Christ Iesu but after once a step be made towardes them or a tast of this doctrin then bookes are bestowed vpon them which they must reade of HN. as his exhortation his dialog his â—pistles the exposition of the Lordes prayer with the Articles c. as they profite in these bookes harder to digest as the Prophesie of the spirite of Loue a declaration of the Masse the holy Lambe the Gospel or â—uangâ—ly of HN. c. last of all the glasse of righteousnes which few of this company haue the other bokes more riser printed as is supposed in Flasâ—ders and translated by this Libeller into English as he himselfe confesseth And here I craue pardon in that I haue bin ouerlong to trouble your honor with these repeticioÌ„s and I would to God that I had no occasion ministred once to name these persons nor this error then should Christ his Church nor no member in the same haue needed to bend their study to publish or manifest the same The Lord of mercy geue your honor all increase of fayth with the trueth of true pietye and continue in you a zeale of Christ his Church with a care y nothing but trueth be taught therein and that the contemners thereof may be put to silence so as our God may be glorified his people edified error and heresies subuerted trueth aduanced which the Lord God graunt for his sonne our Sauiour Christ his sake to whom be honor â–ª and prayse now and euer Your honour to commaund I. Rogers To the Christian Reader CHristian Reader thou hast to peruse at thy pleasure this finale treatise contayning an aunswere vnto Christopher Vitell the chiefe â—lder of the pretended â—amâ—lye of Loue and because it was directed to me and aunsereth certaine poyntes of my former boke called the displeying of the â—amily Therefore it is very meete and conuenient that since the matter toucheth me neerely and â—hargâ—th me with much vntruth that I defend the cause I first toke in hand which I am verely pâ—rswaded is an honest iust and godly defenâ—e of thâ— puritye of doctrine now taught and pâ—blicklâ— preached which this â—amilye spuâ—ne egerly against And although 2. vigilant Pastors haue leaâ—nedly confuted the doâ—tâ—ine of their Author HN. Yet this little availeth to recall them home to that found profession that some of the once â—asted and least they should boâ—st or vaunt that they haue written or compiled anâ—thing which should not be aunswered I hâ—ue thought good once agayne to bend my simple study to â—nswere this libeller Christopher Vitell whole crâ—dit amongâ—st the â—amilye is not small Maâ—uelâ— not gâ—ntle reader that I being the simplest of many thousandes haue aâ—uentuâ—ed to meddlâ— in these disputable questions more â—itter for men of learning and knowledge I graunt but since they haue made their inuectiues agaynst me it behoueth me simply to aunswere wherin I confesse many thingâ—s are omitted which mâ—ght well hâ—ue bin spoken of and many thinges are briefely touched which should haue bin dilated if leasure had serued me but since I cannot dâ—e thinges as I would thou hast my goodwill as I could Yf thou wouldest profiâ—e by reading these conferences it is expedient that thou peruse a little boke called â—he displeing of the Familye the publishing of which boke was the cause that this man being touched therein neerely hath made this Lâ—bell for aunswere thereunto excusing himselfe of many crimes and as much as in him lyeth keeping vp the credit of their Aucthor HN. whoâ—e the â—amilye would not that he should be touched or blemished no not with a venew but he that listeth to marke how his chiefest schollâ—r or oldest â—ngliâ—h Elder Christopher Vâ—tel doth with might and maine culleâ— and hide all the faultes of HN. as well his â—octrine and foule errors as his corrupt lyfe and conueâ—sation and how confidently and with a bâ—asen face he auoucheth that all is false and lyes whatsoeuer is brought forth neuer so probably yeâ— with many witnesses thou shalt or it be long haue a testimoniall out of â—launders of HN his whole lyfe which if the Family here in â—ngland would be â—esoluâ—d with â—â—ueth shal be vpon any oâ—â—asion published in print it nothing blâ—misheth our â—ause although this rude and vnlâ—arned Aunswere be made vnto this slaunderous Libell but our God therein is greatly magnified that simple men are suâ—ficiently assisted with God his spiâ—ite to confute and ouerthrow this blasphemous doctrine of the Familye so gâ—osse and absurd it is agaynst all the holy scripture and agaynst common reason And as nothing is more in vaâ—iance betweene vs then how man is restored vnto that â—lisle lost in Adam and his state being regeneâ—ate I haue simply set downe my poore sâ—ill such experience of a regenerat man as I finde in holy writâ— feele in my own consciâ—ence And also I haue collected the condition of a regenerat peâ—son by the doctâ—ine of HN. as neeâ—e as I could collect by such bokes of theirs as came to my handes wherein if the Familye imagine that I haue not rightly set foâ—th a â—egeneâ—at man after their doctrine let some of their illuminat Elders if they please set vpright such a one as they will stand vnto So shall the controuersy betwene them and vs soner come to end and tryall which if they refuse to doe then it will appeare that it is not
agreing with our frayle condition and nature But such is our vanitye not guided by the spirite of God to aduaunce our state and calling aboue our degree and condition by the setting on of our enemy Sathan Vitell. NOw I doe maruell why you be so enuious agaynst that name HN. wil you not permit the Lord to geue names to his ministers according to the worke that he will accomplish by them or doe you think that the names are geueÌ„ to the outward creature then are you much deceiued No my beloued the seruauntes of the Lord are children of Loue ascribe no names of holynes as dew to the outward person For they know that they are but fraile eaâ—then vessels beare their names according to their vertues whiche God hath geuen them and submit them humbly and obediently as serviceable instrumâ—ts to serue the lord their neiâ—hbour therfore I would councell you to looke iâ—to your selues marke what 〈◊〉 good thinking spirites rule 〈◊〉 wherethrough ye blaspeme diâ—piâ—e dishonor the tâ—ple or tabernaâ—lâ— of the Lord. Answere AGaynst the two letters of HN. I am not enuyous only against such doctrine as he doth teach contrary to the scripture whereby you as an Ipocrite haue seduced the people and led theÌ„ into error and corrupt wayes to hinder the Lord of his purpose it resteth not in mortal man If HN. be a name signifiyng some office why hath neither he nor you manifested y same but plead ignorance that it signifieth some hâ—e misterye which you nor we know not now as HN. is a name geueÌ„ by the Lord as you affirme according to the worke that he will establish by him so doth his fellow Elder â—idelitas looke for lyke credit whose wordes I will repeate as they be written in his booke called A distâ—nciâ—e declaration of the requiring of the Lord c. In the First chap. 1â— seâ—ion â—e hath these wordes following but fire or bend alwayes all your sight oâ— me Fidelitas and consider how that the Lord hath choseÌ„ me euen froÌ„ my very byrth out of my Mothers wombe to the obedience of the requiring of his word For that I with you and yee also with me according to the requiring of the testimonyes of his gracious word should become vnited therein and so to growe of one vniforme being with ech other in the same c. You shew vs in the 29. sexion that through HN. his priestes office the Lord will receaue all men in mercy but for Fidelitas office as yet we know not what it is and in deede there were neuer any that would challenge such names as these elders doe affirme that they signifie their office and calling certayne players vpon stages would declare thâ—â—r names representinâ— câ—rtâ—ine â—eâ—â—ueâ— to seâ— out their matters somâ— wâ—â—e callâ—d truâ—th some hope some â—aithfulnesse but in sadnes to set â—owne such names to siâ—niâ—â—e 〈◊〉 which thâ— Lord as yâ—u affirme will accomplish by them is meere impâ—etie But where the Lord geueth names it appeareth by their calling and such aâ—e their workes and sayinges as geâ—eth testimony sâ—fficient to their vocation â—ut â—our HN. câ—n shew no sufficient markes wherby any but seduced persoâ—s should geue credite to his wordes onely a paâ—nted shew and barren heaping vp of woâ—des darkly appliâ—d without conclusion or sence sauing you and such lâ—ke that finde great misterâ—es in his sentences carying such credit among you as is not seeming Christians The Lord gaue names to sundry vnder the law as Isaack Sampson Iohn â—aptist c. But doth it follow that HN. is a name geuen by the lord Proue vnto vs that the Lord hath established his name your friuolous cauill that HN. signifieth 〈◊〉 will not serue such bables are scarce sufficiâ—Ì„t to meâ—k children therefore you must deuise some better 〈◊〉 Some of your Familye haue written that HN. signifieâ—h some greater matter then either you â–ª or wee can tell of such incertentyes hoâ— you auâ—uch of your HN. For vncertayne doctrine must haue certayne â—idden misteryes to amase the heares mindes or els no doubt â–ª the drift of doâ—â— me would easely be espied Therefore you must deâ—ise some hidden sâ—â—retes whereby to cary a shew of profâ—â—â—d mâ—tter That names are geuen by men in these dayes and not by God there is no doubt or question but you would sayne haue HN. to be a name geuen of God to signifie a calling you geue vs no reasâ—n so to thinke but woulde haue vs beleue it is so because you say so then were we vayn heads and vncâ—nstant mindes For we depende so stricktly vpon the scrâ—ptures of God that no spirite no 〈◊〉 nor no Angel teaching other 〈◊〉 can be a coâ—ted or beleued amongst vs so ceâ—tayn is our faith and so inuincible is that truth which by the Scriptures we held In that you tâ—e Children of y loue ascribe no names of holynes vnto the outward person it is a mistery we aâ—e ignorant of we simply geue names to our children in baptisme without signification of holynes touching the Inâ—ant the names may signifie holynes but that the person carrying the same name shall be indewed therwith that are we ignorant of If you haue such hidden misteries among you it were good the world should not be ignorant of it We commit the successe and euent of such hidden secrets to the lord Of enuyous good thinking spirites that rule in vs you councel vs to looke to without your councell God willing we meane to follow the councel of the Lord our God which willeth vs not to beleue euery spirite c. And yet I neuer heard before of enuyous good thinking spirits But such a grace you haue not only to forge new doctrine but new names of Spirits also In speaking against HN. you wold insinuate that we blaspheme despise and dishonoâ— the temple or tabernacle of the lord Doth it follow necessarily that they that speake against HN. blaspheme despise c. And is he the temple or tabernacle of the Lord vndoubtedly we are all deceaued then For I assure you we take him to be an erroneous spirit a fantastical hed possessed with pride of minde Sathan blowing the belowes The Lord working therby the exercise of his church If you haue other opinioÌ„ of HN. warrant or grouÌ„d so to do haue you none But beâ—ause you will not beâ—eeue the truth therefore are strong illusions sent whereby you might be deceaued Looke into the holy Scriptures with a more single minde and it shall be easily perceiued Vitell. MOrâ—ouer you say that the illuminat â—lders sin not I would you knew what you say forth you should vnderstand that they do lord and preuaile with God and Câ—â—ist ouer the sinne and haue no pleasure to commit sinne therfore they teach men the godly obedience whereby they might be frends with God but they that haue pleasure in sinne are the seruants of â—inne and are enemies to the Lord. Answere I Haue sayd that the
with all to deceaue all How do you obserue the politik ordinaunce of the Maiestrate in printing your bookes and publishing them to the Queenes subiectes contrary to the law made in that behalf your obedience câ—nsisteth in wordes but not in 〈◊〉 â—hâ—refore with more truth you might saye we will not be obedient to Maiâ—strates In that you coÌ„descend â—oâ— iâ— anye thing contrary to God c. Therin you say well but I would you were found herein true of your promise for then your HN. and hys doctrine with hys prophesies should not haue such credit amoÌ„g you as appeareth if his doctrine be not directly agaynst the Lorde our God and hys commaundementes I apeale vnto the iudgement of all God his Children that shall reade these conferences You accompt none vngodly but such as blaspheme the Lord and despise his most holy seruice of loue Whome you accompt blasphemers before is declared iâ— any speake aagaynst your HN. or your Family of loue Ipso faâ—to he is a blasphemer then all the worlde which doe despise your Familye are blasphemers your conclusion must needes fall out euen so whereby appeareth what reuerent opinion you haue of any and of al that are not of your Family if you learned this of HN. consider better of it for very shame of y worldâ— if no reuereÌ„ce nor feare of God can moue you You confesse that there is no man righteous vntill the Lord deliuer him froÌ„ hys vnrighteousnes but howe we are deliuered you wee greatly vary we according vnto the holy Scripture do acknowledge Christ to be our righteousnes which he hath wrought perfectly in him selse which by fayth wee apply to our vnrighteousnes hys obedieÌ„ce his loue his pacience c. we by fayth apply to our disobedience to our hatred to our impacience c. all what was in Christ is made ours by grace yet still wee in our earthen vessels are coâ—rupt sinâ—ull and vâ—yde oâ— anye suche vertues as the law requireth But â—ou on the contrarye affirme that by Christ working in vs by hys spirite we are made righteous and so clensed from our vnrighteousnes that we are chaunged into hys perfection so that in all our actions wordes and thoughts nothing can â—low oâ— pâ—ocâ—ede from vs but sucâ—e as procâ—ede â—rom Christ because we are guyded by the same spirite but whether you or wee speake truth let the holy Scriptures beare witnesse then may be say that the Lord is his righteousnes it is very true but how and in what manner the Lord may be sayd to be our righteousnes is to be vnderstoode we acknowledge y hee in hys owne person is our righteousnes and sanctificatioÌ„ but you will haue hys righteousnes wrought in you by his spirtie the difference coÌ„sisteth in the maâ—er we acknowledge in him all strength all piety all obedience and in our selues all weakenes all vngodlinesse and all disobedience but you will needes haue all in all to be in vs whiche to much blemisheth hys glory and triumph if we shoulde also in our persons triumph our triumph standeth not in doing but in beleeuing in him which did Therefore as you haue charged vs wrongfully to be aduocats for sinne so may we rightly call yâ—u Patrons for our corrupt rotten and earthen vessels Vitell. MOre you are offended at the confession of the Familye of Loue vnderstand the matter well that there is no man coÌ„pelled therevnto but if any one be wounded or trobled in his coÌ„science then he may to his coÌ„fort make his euel thoughts or els what manifest vnto a priest or Elder aâ—cording vnto the counsell of the holy scripture Also I thinke it is an ordinauÌ„ce in the Church of England that if any one be troubled in minde he shall come and aske counsell of the person or minister and I thinke he must then make manifest his thoughtes c. And the Catholiâ—k ReligioÌ„ holdeth thought word and deede but there are many that will compell men to deâ—lare their thoughts â–ª whiâ—h 〈◊〉 nâ—â—ther pâ—iestes nor Ministers of the â—ord Aunswere TOuching your coÌ„fessioÌ„ which â—ou acknowledge to be voluntary and not coaâ—ted I haue signified my dislyking your Auâ—thor HN. doâ—h say it is expedient that they of his Familye make maniâ—est all that hath bin coÌ„mitted both what it is wherevnto our nature draweth vs vnto here it apppeareth â–ª if you follow your Author directly he leueth the matter not so voluntary as of necessitye And this must be done as you say vnto a pâ—iest or Elder to please the Papitles I thinke you haue added this worde priest but we tell you that such manner of confession the scriptures allow not of if any be wounded in conscieÌ„ce he may to his comfort repayre to any godly or learned preacher â—o shew his griefe and to receaue counsell and comfort to his consolation by the scripture agaynst the prick of conscience or the law which troubleth many miÌ„s mindes but that of necessitye he must make manifest all thoughts all what our nature doth incline vnto there is no warrant what ordinaunce is in the Church of England you haue not shewed but that he must of necessitye make manifest his thoughts it is vntrue it is left frâ—â— onely by way of perswasion men are moued to repaire in such extremitye to their learned and godly pastors and by no ordinaunce but this appeareth that you accompt not your selfe as any member of this Church of England no maruell for you holde it more safe to professe HN. his Familye then to be an obedient child of Christ his Church Whereof England is a speciall part What the Catholick religion holdeth touching confession is no cloke to shaddow your dealinges with all for we tell both you and them that such a confession as both you and they hold is not agrâ—eing with trueth The Papistes vrge men and accompt them heretickes that deny it and you hold it as an expedient thinge neither haue you both any warrant so to doe Some doe compell men to declare their thoughtes which are neither priestes nor ministers as you affirme who they are you tell vs not yet I suppose you meane the coÌ„missioners who â—xamining your Familye touching their fayth and doctrine found them so suttle by your instructioÌ„s that in y end they required theÌ„ to declare their knowledge what they thought of their Author HN. and I thinke the Magistrate authorised by the Prince may in such cases require vs to maniâ—est what opinion we haue of any Author or what we thinke of him but you haue taught them to say we know him not and therefore to commend him or discommend him wee may not such sleightes you deuise wheÌ„ the Magistrats requireth a trueth at your handes and here is also declared your obedieÌ„ce to rulers your Elders are safe when the poore country people are brought before the Magistrates but when will any of you the â—lders come voluntarily and defend your doctrine and proue it good by souÌ„d argumeÌ„t it
some thinges yet so as hitherto vntouched of you except we should take your bare word agaynst many witnesses Vitell. FVrther you write of two men which weâ—e before a worshipfull Iustice Anno 1561. which you affirm to be of the Fam. of loue what they were that is that but of HN. his doctrine at that time they knew not also you affirme you knowe what but seeing you will â—eedes slaunder vs we will in the patience of Christ beare thâ—t and hâ—pe â—pon the goodnes and mercifulnesse of the Lord desiring him to geue you a better minde Aunswere TOuching two meÌ„ examyned before a worshipfull Iustice I haue collected that they were of the Family of loue you answere the doctrine of HN. at that time they knew not but this is certain one of them is liuing knoweth you but to well and is a welwiller to your Family and scoller of Allin but what they were you aunswere that is that Such suttle aunsweres are fittest for men of your profession you know what they were it seemeth and in deed they were of your hatching although for further increase of knowledge â–ª Allin their neare neighbor did more instructe them and lead them forward into your error Plain dealing would haue put men out of doute seeing you know what they were But since they haue bewrayed your doings â–ª in secret you regard them not For some of your Familye haue aunswered that by compulcion and threates they made their confession others say playne they were not of our Family you are ashamed of them now that they haue disclosed your secret conference You say I affirme I know what I thinke you meane touching your owne person wherein I haue vttered you to be y onely man y hath brought this wicked doctrine of HN. which lay hidden in the Dutch tongue among our simple English people to their euerlasting destruction except the Lord in mercy open their eyes that they may see into the wicked monstrous drift of your Author HN. and repent theÌ„ and so turn vnto the Lord Iesus from whome they haue departed following a stranger an enemy to Christ and his gospell set vp by Sathan who enuieth the prosperitye thereof The Lord geue you hartes to vnderstand and also geue euery one of you a better minde Vitell. COncerning Christopher Vâ—tell of his aâ—t or his small skill in learning he knoweth it also neither doth he make any boast of any thing that he â—aÌ„ for he knoweth if he haue any goâ—d whether it be godly or maâ—ly that â—t commeth fâ—om aboue for all goâ—d coÌ„meth from the Father of light with â—home there is no variablnes â—eiâ—her is he chaunged into daâ—kenes but all what is neither gâ—dly â—oâ— manâ—y that commeth out oâ—â—he â—lâ—sh of 〈◊〉 or â—lâ—shfly wisedon◠〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 gâ—od thinking his 〈…〉 â—hiâ—h bringeth 〈…〉 holyâ—â—s a counterfaâ—te riâ—hteouâ—â—es as also many manner of religions or chosen God seruices sectes or errors c. Aunswere TOuching this Christopher Clitel in Latten Vitâ—lus or Vitulus I haue sayd he is a ioyner by occupation a wauering minde and vnconstaÌ„t delighting in singularitys alwayes held hereticall opinions almost this 36. yeares wise men haue noted 3. euills being once rooted in man are seldome or neuer voyd of some spice of y same disease that is Lunasy Ieolously and heresye and it so falleth out by this mans example who in king Henryes raigne was vnconstant in king Cowardes raigne a dissembler and in Queenes Maryes raigne a playne Arryan and now in this our Princes raigne a chiefe teacher of the Familye of Loue now he hosteth of nothing surely there is no cause but rather to sorrow that many poore people by you are deceiued and abused and their simplicitye caryed away by your suttle speaches You say what so is godly or manly that is from aboue the phrase is somewhat difficult I think you mean spirituall and earthly But where you adde what is neither godly nor manly y coÌ„meth of the flesh of sinne c. Here is a distinction more scholasticall then meane wittes can attaine to if by godly and manly you place manly as contrary to godly then is manly taken in the euill part and so not from aboue excepte you will haue euell thinges from aboue which cannot be The thirde distinction is ambiguous for of our corrupt nature wee bring forth fleshly wisdome imaginations c. And herevnto are we by nature subiect if the Lord by his grace doe not guide vs and lead vs and deliuer vs yea and so deliuered if he still doe not protect and gouerne vs we shall be ready to fall agayne and agayne therefore we dayly craue at his handes saying deliuer vs Lord from such euels as by our owne corrupt nature we are subiect vnto Here are also 2. phrases I thought not good to let pas vntouched the one the mans good thinking and this is taken in the Family in the euill parte If his thought be good it is from aboue why despise ye it The other is chosen God seruices If it be a seruice of God then you doe not well to place this phrase with sects and errors But these men haue a delite to publishe strange Religion and to set it forth with strange phrases also For so they may speake like their Author they care not how vnlike the holy scripture they write Vitell. ANd all these come hereout because the man will iudge the â—orkes of the Lord with his naturall wisdome or lernedenes And heâ—out namely out of the wisedome of the flesh sprang all Christopher Vitelles errors but not out of any other maÌ„s councell or bookes Answere ALl errors sectes and couÌ„terfaite righteousnes as this man saith come of this that man will iudge the worâ—es of the Lord with his naturall wisdome lewdnes Touching man simply which S. Paul calleth Ammalis homo the â—leshly minded man knoweth not the things that are of God yet it is also affirmed that no man can say Abba Father without the spirite of god This man would perswade that there is now some secret teaching froÌ„ God by reuelation which is proper to this Family and therein they haue a speciall gifte they litle regard the ordinary way and meane to attayne knowledge and the true sence of the holy scripture It is not to be denyed that almighty God hath taught his children by his holy spirite in reuelations extraordenary but that now the sonne of God is come into the world eâ—en the wisdom of the Father with an vncouered face shall we now in this light looke to be taught by reuelations or inspiratioÌ„s he hath by his wisdome established an ordinarye way of teachinge in his church wherunto we must stand obâ—dyent except we will deny his ordynance Faith commeth by hearing of the word of God If we haue faith we shal not want other excellent vertues she is neuer alone but loue charitiâ— humilitie patience c. waite vpoÌ„ her as handmaydes Hath not the Deuill deluded many
AN Answere vnto a wicked infamous Libel made by Christopher Vitel one of the chiefe English Elders of the pretended Family of Loue Maintaining their doctrine carpingly answeringe to certaine pointes of a boke called the displaing of the Fam. Aunswered by I. Rogers AT LONDON Printed by Iohn Daye dwelling ouer Aldersgate Anno. 1579. Cum Priuilegio Regiae Maiestatis To the right honourable Syr Frauncis VValsingham chiefe Secretary vnto the Queenes most excellent Maiesâ—y and of her honorable Councell Grace and Peace in Christ our Lord. HAuing before this set forth a small tretise displaing a sort of men in this our countrey of England imbracing an Author vnder two letters H and N. about sixe monethes agoe I haue receaued since from the same persons sundry letters contayning matter against the doctrine publickly taught in the church of England and answering certain matters contayned in the sayd booke called The displaying of the Family of Loue which answeres some I haue put in print the rest remayn wherof this Libel is one of the chiefest and as the same doth witnesse is made and compiled by one of the chiefe of that sect and the only man which was the occasion that any of HN his doctrine became conuersant with our natiue Countrey people a thing greatly to be lamented The name of the party is Christofer Vitel sometime a Ioyner of London and infected with that infamous doctrine of Airius â—0 yeares agoe â–ª whose credâ—â—e among the pretended Family of Loue is very great and therefore I haue vsed more diligence in answering the same Being Right honorable unboldened to present the same vnto your honor vpoÌ„ vew and tast of your good inclination towardâ—s the true Church of Christ and the purging out of the same all disorders and discords that therin groweth or which blemisheth that beloued bride as much as in your honor lyeth And if herein I shall seeme ouer bold or presumptuous considering my rude and vnlearned capacity I haue many examples which may serue for my excuse For where should men publishing error seeke defence but vnder the name and protection of such as through the Lords dispensatioÌ„ and gift of singular wit doe vnderstand falshood at the first sight and haue authoritie to correct the same and hate error and corruption of a zeale to the glory of god and a care of true Religion and by rate goodnes of nature doe loue the truth and also sufficiently adorned with corage to defend the same Accept therefore most honorable these my rude labors in â—â—norable part and geue iudgement where trueth lyeth Accept my serâ—iceable hart to further the glory of christ his church and not the simple vtterance and smal skil with les learning as by the handling appeareth Also consider the prouideÌ„ce of our God which ruleth his childreÌ„ by his beck and hath appointed your honor as a speciall Patrone in his Church to heare the griefe and gronings thereof and to vnderstand and see that truth be not defaced troden downe or spurned at by heretickes or wicked Atheistes which the mixed Church is too too full of And as the Lord hath made your honor to feele the sweetnes of his sonne our Sauiour So I am perswaded that you bende your singular care and deep consideration that this our countrey of England might be free from hereticks deprauers of Christ his glory And if it might please your honor to consider the root and ground froÌ„ whence this strange doctrin grew the practises and meanes by which it is maintained and supported And by this litle sayd by me consider with all what might be sayd against this doctrine of H N. by men of knowledge and skill And finding the roote nothing els but singularitie ambition pride and carnall liberty The shore and pillers that vphold it wrong application of the holy Scriptures counterfaite shewes of piety c. your honor shall perceiue I dout not how litle true reason these men haue or sound argument to proue the particulars of their doctrine the body and substance being found in deede but a lumpe of olde worne heresies newly hatcht by H N. Fidelitas and â—lidad men come out of the cloudes as they would haue the world beleeue And as this doctrine hath increased and spred it selfe in many shires of this Realme So if I should declare what euent doth follow in many places it were scarce credible The fountaine or foundation thereof is the opinion that these men haue that they keepe the law of God in euery point as he requyreth â—er of commeth their doctrine of perfection attayned vnto in this life and as they tearme it the beginning of immortality then being made perfecte they imagine themselues to be Godded with God or incorporate to God I will vse their own tearmes with whom God in one being of his spirit is hommisied or become man. Now hauing once planted this doctrine what Sathan can worke with this perswasion is easily perceiued For when this doctrine is once beleeued that their Elders caÌ„not sinne and whatsoeuer they commit it cannot be sinne because they are guyded by the spirite And when all feare to offend or conscience of sinne is excluded to all boldnes and liberty to liue after our liking a very window is opened As there is no reason to maintayn this nor truth to vphold this So it is very necessary that the simple people should be warned to beware of this so suttle a doctrine which they like very well of because their teachers and Elders vnder preteÌ„ce of plausible precepts delyuered to the simple at the first taste of a godly life which asore any thing they must imbrace with many shewes of mortificatioÌ„ TheÌ„ must they grow to the manly oldnes in the loue which is that perfection which they dreame of But the secret part of their doctrine is hid from the most parte And all their bookes are not made coÌ„mon to all as containing to strong meate for weake stomaches therfore their glas of righteousnes few must looke into least their whole vanity and corruption should be espyed That booke therefore is a rare birde among this Family And this suttlety doth Sathan worke to deceaue the simple to keep certaine secret misteries and doctrine to worke admiration in the hartes of deceaued people Right honorable I haue set downe this part of their doctrine as a tast what other matters they maintayne by perusing this small treatâ—se shall easely be espied how their chiefe Elder HN. is exalted and called a Prophet and that his prophesies shal be proued true and also they account of HN. in office to be a priest and say that through his priestes office God will receaue all men to mercy so that our only Lord Sauiour is smally accounted of his offices are bestowed vpon HN. These thinges are too too absurd Right honorable and worthy to be buryed in silence had not SathaÌ„ raysed vp his impes to trouble his Church with these blasphemies agaynst which I
God and righteousnes and truth from Ierusalem But it doth not follow that we knew not these testimonies but by HN. his ministerye before his new doctrine was broched the Church of Christ was not ignoraunt of that corner stone Christ Iesus of his holy priesthod of his holy sacrifice these thinges were truly understood and knoweÌ„ although HN. had neuer written Touching Christ his comming as a theefe we know it is ment of his second comming although you would gladly haue it to be the comming of HN. with his new blasphemyes The watchmeÌ„ vpon mount â—phraim are the teachers of Christ his Church of which number your HN. is none his cryes are from Flaunders and not from Sion You place two speciall vertues Loue and Truth as a face and â—ositenaunce to your doctrine but if wee should examine the same by the word of the Lord then your Loue is but pretenced For your Loue should be knowen by louing the Lord Iesus who loued vs first But the loue of HN. hath besotted your hartes who by his doctrine is enemy vnto our Lord Iesus who onely is to be beloued And for truth you onely vse the word barely without substauÌ„ce what trewth you vse in this your libell will appeare by reading to euery indifferent minde if your Loue and trueth be no better then is here expressed then I may well affirme that little Loue and small truth is to be found in this your libell Vitell. BEhold I ley in Sion a stone of foundation a proofe stone a costly corner stone to a fast foundation who so beleueth in him let him not hast For I will make the iudgement to a measure lyne â—nd the righteousnes a ballaunce Esa. 28. b. Luke â–ª â—0 b. Rom. 9. c â–ª Pet. â— â— A falsâ— ballance is abhomination vnto the Lord but a full weight pleaseth 〈◊〉 â—â—ll â–ª Prou. 11. â— A â—ight ballance â–ª and waight is of 〈◊〉 Lord â–ª and all powndeâ— in the sack â–ª are his workes Prou. 16. Should I sayth the Lord Iustifye the vnright ballance and the false waightes in the sacke wherethrough their rich men doe much vnright and their anhabitâ—untes deale with lyes and haue deceitful tongues in their throats Mich. 6. b. 〈◊〉 â–ª Therefore will I begin to plague you and make you desolate because of your sinnes Miche 6. Awake now all and repent and remember to be obedient vnto the law and commaundementes of the Lord to the end that ye in the day of the Lord be not found intangled or held captiue of your sinnes nor plagued with the plague of the vngodly Whosoeuer now in the 〈…〉 Lord will escape the plagues of the vngodly and bide preserued inâ—the godlynesâ— â–ª Let him beleve in Iesus Christâ—y eiâ—en asâ— the 〈◊〉 sayth and turne him about 〈…〉 of a childe and apply him to be obedient vnto the requiring of the word of Iesu Christ and of the doctrine of his lorâ— â–ª And so let euery one come and assemble him to the mount Sion to the cominaltyâ— of Saynteâ— and to the stone the fast foundatioÌ„ which is laid of God in Sion and build him thereon to a spirituall house in all loue and coÌ„cord and to an holy priesthod For to offer spirituall oblacioÌ„s which are acceptable vnto God through Iesus Christ. 1. Pet. 2. I through the grace of God which is geuen to me haue layd the foundation lyke a wise architect and an other buildeth thereon but let euery one take heed how he buildeth theron For an other foundation can no man ley then there is leyd which is Iesus Christ. 1. Con. chap. 3. b. This description of Sion my beloued haue I writteÌ„ 〈◊〉 geue thâ—â—by the louers of truth to vndâ—â—stand whether they have read any of the bokes of HN or noâ— which are named the most holy seruice of louâ— that the scriptures which the Lord hath set forth through his elected miâ—ist HN. are brought forth out of Sion according to the promises of the lord For it is written that the Lord will bring forth his loue out of Sion his word out of Ierusalem c. Also that the same HN â–ª hath taught all men to repaire to his mount Sion and builde thereon the which is in his works declared at large as is before rehersed Answere HEre is set down a large description of Sion of the corner stone foundation and many places of holy scripture heaped together but to no other end that can be perceiued but to amaze the Reader that your doctrine should thereby beare a face and countenaunce of trueth and come from Sion Ierusalem but we tel you truely that your new vpstart heresies with your new termes are not testimonies of Sion but from Bethell Dan Gilgall your masking shew is now discouered your vizards pluckt of Your painted words are opeÌ„ to the world your suttle â—leightes made manifest here are many places quoted but none applied If we shal assemble to SioÌ„ as you require then must we leue your HN. your Family For by Sion is vnderstood the doctrin of the prophets Apostles and Euangelistes from which the Lord assisting vs we will neuer depart and whatsoeuer doctrine may be proued by theseâ— we reuereÌ„tly embrace gladly receaue what doctrine soeuer is contrary here unto that we reiect cast of of which number the doctrine of HN. and his Familye are because it agreeth not with that Prophets Apostles nor Euangelistes You geue the louers of truth to vnderstand whether they haue red any câ— H N. his bookeâ— or not 〈◊〉 so that there may be â—onets of truth although they neuer red H N. nor his bookes as you grauÌ„te this vnto vs now so you will deny the same hereafter as shall appeare you would still haue vs beléeue that H N. teacheth no doctrine but builded vpon Syon as appeares by his workes his bookes are to be seene his doctrine is out of his own imaginatioÌ„ being deluded by an erroneus spirit to disquyet the Ioyfull proceedinge of Christ his gospell and to exercise his church according to this saying necessâ—â—st haereses esse c. It is necessary that heresies be c. There was neuer heresse in the world but would dispute argew and reason and deny no conference with any but this HN. thinketh it sufficient that he tell his Familye that he hath learned his doctrine by gods owne mouth and no man may speake against him nor his doctrine but by and by he is condemned for a blasphemer of the holy ghost So sharpe and quick are these Elders of the familye in iudgement it is tyme for you to helpe your decaying state with some face shew of wordes For your Familye doubt not doe espy your poysoned doctrine which lay hid from them vnder your darke speach and vnaccostomed phrases his workes declare his doctrine to come from his owneacute braine by illusion of Sathan and none geueth testimony of him but himselfe and you his deceiued
Fideliâ—as he would haue vs beleeue that Nâ— pronounceth and declareth the right state of all what is in heauen and vpon earth what is Gods and mans spiritual and heauenly naturall right and reasonable c. Belike he thought his bookes should neuer haue been perused by any but of such as are drowned in the drowsie dremes oâ— this fantastical doctrine One More of â—uâ—â—er in â—â—â—ng â—â—wardes dayes and one 〈…〉 of Manchester in this our Quéenes dayes tolde of such vayne and friuoloâ—s matters but they were punished as Lunatikes And whereas your Fidelitas sayth that no such works could be wrought by anye vnlesse the Lord were with him this is as strongly affirmed as the other part is monstrous and vngodly For I praye you examine what are the works that HN. hath so notably brought forth which doth manifest y God is with him His bookes peraduenture you meanâ— What his bookes are and out of what spirit they procéed is easely perceiued A simple wit hauing such a guide could deuise agaynst Christ his doctrine as fine riddles as HN. hath published should carry a more shew of truth then his bookes do For schollers and children are able to confute his follies sufficiently they cary such absurdities with them both against the Scriptures of God and against all common reason and nature The kingdome of Israell shal be set vp again the childreÌ„ of loue shall raigne therin you say but when shall this your prophesie take place you tell vs not In deede Dauid George tolde vs before the like propheâ—y that the true house of Dauid should be erected and the children of loue should raigne therin Why delite you your selues with such speaches For in this worlâ— these thinges according to the letter â—hall not happen but they are spoken to assure vs of the resurrection and to shadow the ioyes of the kingdome of heauen whereby our harts should be lifted vp with expectation of his promise Vitell. BEhold these be the causes wherthrough the lord hath moued me to minister the seruice of loue vnto other wherein I haue sought only the honor of God and the saluation of al people which hope in god and long for his righteousnes Also I haue through the goodnesse of the lord met with certan good willingnons which haue submitted them obediently and faithfully vnto the lord and his gratious word which also haue followed the couÌ„cel of christ to the clensing of their hartes and therin doth their light shine before men wherin they seeke the laude of the lord and the saluation of all meÌ„ Answere WHen you had séene dissention vprores contentioÌ„ c. in the world then the Lord you say moued you to minister the seruice of loue vnto others you toke the aforesayd â—robles as a fit occasion geueÌ„ you to begin your doctrine surely you bewâ—ay your selfe in your speach You thought it was good fishing when the waters were troubled and tooke occasion to teach false doctrine when you saw great broiles and tumults in the world But where you affirme that the Lord moued you to do this â–ª wherby shall we know that this your bare affirmation is true onely because you say so but the holy Ghost hath warned vs not to geue credit to such Ier. 14. ver 14. sayth The Prophetes prophesie lâ—es in my name I haue not sent them nether did I commaund them nether did I speake to them but they prophesie to you a falâ—e vision diuination vanity and deâ—eitfâ—lnes of their own harts Also Eze. 13. ver 3. Wo be to the foolish Prophets that follow their own spirit haue seene nothing We may not beleue euery spirit but try the spirit whether he be of God Iohn 4.1 The Lord moued you not to leue your arte calling and to minister a strange doctrine to the people but the spirit of pride and vaynglory and a desire of singularity puâ—t vp your mind Like as in time past you did as eagerly maintayn other strange monsterous opinions The causes that moued you to spred your doctrine are not sufficient you haue thrust in your selfe into a function and calling nether allowed of god nor ordayned by mâ—n and thiâ— your ministery is disobedience to God and the publick magistrate neither hâ—ue you herein fought the honor of God â–ª saluation of al people as you afâ—irmâ— If you had sought God his honor your voice should publickly haue been heard and not in corners In that you haue met with certayn good willing ones which haue submitted themselues c. therin we beshrew you lament that any simple soules are deceiued by your perswasions and in deede it seemeth some such there are that geue eare to your sugred wordes For the poyson of aspes is vnder youre tongue Psal. 14. Why come you not â—orth to mayntayn such doctrine as you haue taught why proue you not your doctrin by the holy Scripture Why suffer you your schollers to be troubled and imprysoned but for your selfe you are saâ—e inough and when they should render a reason of their hope and faith then they vtterly deny your doctrine It séemeth that such a principle you haue taught theÌ„ to affirme and to deny only keeping their conscience secret Now where you say that your good willing ones or schollers their light hath shone before men wherâ—by you would heare vs in hand that your pupilâ— be men of excellent life as you set them out so do they your life as appeares by their letters so one of you commeÌ„deth and prayseth another anâ— so must you â—éedes do when you want good neighborâ— y best way iâ— to praise your selues Vitell. ALso I haue geuen forth certayn bookes which are translated word for word as neare as we could out of the bokes of HN. and some of them haue come to the hands of enuyous persoÌ„s which are diuilâ—ed with the deuill either diuelishly minded for they be slaunderers and liâ—rs and also blasphemers whilest they haue â—laâ—phemed thâ— holy Ghost and hiâ— most holy seruice of loue Moreouer they hauâ—â—ayled at â—euyled condemned despised and blasphemed the Lord his elected minister HN. If this come not out of enuy although they say nay then I know no enuyous spirites And although there be many enuiors of the loue and her most holy seruice yet are theâ—e two horryble blasphemers of late rysen vp whose bookes arâ— come to my hands The one is named Steuen Batman the othâ—r I.R. But they might both be named with one name Tertullus if they coÌ„tâ—nue in their lying wherof I must wryte although I haue no pleasure in such workers of wickednes Aunswere THat the bokes of HN. were translated out of Dutch by you we knew before but in distributing them to the Quéenes subiects without any allowance of the magistrate contrary to law therin we tel you you haue not dealt liâ—e a â—rue subiect nor a christiaÌ„ you complayned of disobedience to magistrates but you your selfe are the most disobedient of