Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n
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A38683
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A dialogue betwixt a conformist and a non-conformist concerning the lawfulness of private meetings in the time of the publick ordinances, and of going to them ... published by N.E., for common benefit.
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Estwick, Nicolas.
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1668
(1668)
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Wing E3359; ESTC R14691
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16,643
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22
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and enjoyn'd the use of them hath not he high conceits of himself much of confidence and will in his worship and little of modesty that thinks himself wiser and his own inventions better than these is not yours Will-worship 4. I have been taught that Superstition can't be in a prayer or any external thing but that 't is in our minds it being an evil apprehension of God and so those that are against Common Prayer may be as guilty of Superstition as they that use it 5. I pray tell me and speak your conscience do you not think that if you should heartily joyn with the Minister in it if you should use the Confessions with true repentance for sin the Petitions with sincere desires for those good things they mention and the thanks givings with love and praises to God in your soul this would not be more pleasing to God than turning your back upon it and scoffing at it N. C. But they are such cold and formal prayers that I can't lift up my heart in the use of them C. Surely you are highly mistaken to think that good prayers can be formal or make you cold and dead in praying them 1. To pray by a form is lawful and good else why would our Saviour have left us a form why do we use Psalms do you not use a form for a Grace at Meals are not extempory prayers forms to the hearers for the hearers must no more vary from them least they be guilty of wandring thoughts than we from the Common-Prayer and some must use a form in their Families or not pray at all they having not good and ready inventions 2. I alway thought evil formality in prayer consisted not in a form of words but in a lazy formal temper of minde so th t if you be not serious in using Common or other prayers 't is you that are formal and not the prayers 3. Besides I finde and me thinks 't is reasonable that those words whose form and Emphasis I have considered of and apprehended before should at the using of them most readily when I have not time to meditate and most powerfully affect my heart by the way of my judgment and that extempory inventions do most usually but raise the affections by the force of the fancy as Poets Musicians c. finde by experience 4. I cannot believe that bate inventing and affectionate using of new words every time we pray is praying by the Spirit but certainly to pray by the Spirit is to exercise Charity Humility Faith Repentance and the rest of the Graces of the Holy Spirit in our hearts in prayer and seeing words are but to express our minds and that those Graces in out hearts may be exprest by a form of words I see not why he that prays by a form may not at least as well pray by or wish the Spirit as others N. C. Truly friend I finde I can't twice a day invent a new form fit to be pray'd in my Family and therefore do most usually use a form of words which I see my Children and Servants better understand than extemporary prayers But that which makes some of the Non-conformists think Common-Prayer unlawful is the Imposition of it C. Though I think out Governors may impose lawful things yet it not much concerns us to dispute that but whether we are to obey them or not and for this I would fain understand how that which was lawful for me to do before imposed should by being imposed become unlawful or when are we more bound to obey Magistrates than when they command lawful things Seeing their commands which are about lawful things take away only the liberty of our actions but not the liberty of our consciences which is properly Christian liberty the former is a due to our lawful Superiours the latter only a tribute to God therefore the French Protestant Church and the Dutch and all the Reformed Churches have Forms which they use in Publick N. C. But there are some things in the Common-Prayer that are unlawful and you have no Scripture for them C. I suppose you mean the Ceremonies Surplice Cross and Kneeling which have been enough disputed by others all that I will answer to you is that I must confess there is no express Scripture for them and yet I don't count them unlawful N. C. No! why I pray is it lawful for us to do any thing in the Worship of God that we have not Scripture for C. Yes for though there be no Scripture for them yet there is none against them and nothing is sin but what is forbidden and if you account them unlawful when there is no Scripture against them you are righteous over-much and add to Gods word N. C. Say you so I don't remember any plain place of Scripture against them but will think on one against the next time we meet C. Do I pray and think how small a condescention these would be in you o're the things strangled and bloud enjoyn'd to be forborn Acts 15. 29. And St. Pauls causing Timothy to be circumcis'd were N. C. But friend do you not see how all that are godly hate the Common Prayer and the Bishops and hear in private and is not this enough to induce you and I to do so too C. I pray ask your Minister whether there was any other Government in the Church then Bishops from the Apostles times till Mr. Calvins who liv'd about a hundred years ago I know you quarrel at our Bishops greatness but that alters not their Office and shall thy eye be evil because the King 's and his Predecessors hath been good to them is it any evil in thee to accept what is given thee I do believe that many that are against them are truly godly but I do not count it any part of their piety but their great mistake and when I consider that St. Paul saith Charity is the chiefest grace I am afraid there are too few of them truly godly because they are so full of scoffing railing envy and bitterness against Bishops and although our Saviour enjoyns us to love and do good to bless and pray for those that are our enemies yet they pray against their supposed enemies and 't is said will fast and pray whole days to beseech God to curse them Oh horrid the Devil would do thus too but that he knows 't is to no purpose Christians are enjoyn'd to pray for Heathen Governors and do they act like Christians that pray against Christian Governors Besides I never could like their calling themselves and their party the godly it savours more of Pharisaical Pride than Modesty and Humility N. C. But can you think that a people that pray and fast and hear so much are not the best C. Who prayed and fasted more than the Pharisees and than Cromwell and his Companions indeed Neighbour methinks there is more of Christianity in a modest obedience to Superiors in justice and charity to our Neighbours than
to you with excellency of speech or wisdom v. 4. but my speech and preaching was not with enticing words of mens wisdom that the things of Christian Religion might be preacht in their own native power and plainness and St. Aug. chides himself for delighting so much in the singing of Psalms observing that his heart went a whoring too much after the pleasure of the Musick and delights of his fancy in it N. C. But our Minister sometimes looks on his notes and if he be not very affectionate I am dull and ready to fall asleep C. If he looks on his notes 't is a sign he hath considered well before-hand what to say to you you must not be a patient and expect to be rows'd but you must rowse your self and you must by meditating on the truths you hear raise your affections to them that heat that is rais'd within by the exercise of our own faculties is natural and abundantly better than that which comes from an external fire that is ready to scorch you But I pray observe the different tempers of men some are more judicious others more affectionate and some have louder voices than others and if either of these be a sufficient cause for separation we seem to blame God that he hath not made all men alike N. C. But those that preach in private have been and are instruments of converting many C. The praise and glory be given to God if they are but pray tell me what you call conversion I hope you mean more than a being made a Non-conformist or so affected in hearing as was spoke of before what real change is made in them N. C. Those that were profane are made sober C. I am glad to hear it and do heartily wish it be not a meer change from one sin to another I remember the Jews said of John the Baptist because he came neither eating nor drinking he had a Devil but of Christ because he came eating and drinking he was gluttonous c. though they wrongly apply'd it yet their rule was this that those that only resrain'd from gluttony and drunkenness had Devils i. e. envy pride hypocrisie and such lusts within them Let me ask you therefore are they not hugely affected to the Non-conformists way do they not angrily or as they call it zealously condemn all that are not of their way would they not count it a kind of Apostacy and backsliding from grace for any to forsake private meetings and receive the Supper in publick N. C. Why do you ask it may be it is so C. Because if so I am afraid it 's only a conversion to the Non-conformists and not to God for in true conversion humility and charity are the chief graces wrought in us and I am apt to think where such judging is where such railing censoriousness and bitterness is against civil or spiritual Superiors there is more of the Devil than the true spirit of Christianity and I doubt 't is a change from the lusts of the flesh to the works of the Devil 't is a change wrought by some external weight as motion in a Clock and doth not proceed from a principle of life N. C. Come come I am afraid you speak this out of envy as being unwilling to acknowledge that any good is done by the Non-conformists C. I do most solemnly profess I speak my judgment and shall heartily rejoyce that good is done by any some may preach Christ out of envy some out of covetousness others out of pride to get followers and a name and God who is not tyed or beholden to means may do good by these and yet this no excuse at all to these teacher's faults nor have we reason from hence to think the better of them but of God or to be followers of them for we must not do evil that good may come on 't N. C. You seem to be very tart and therefore will I not put you upon speaking much more upon this theme but I find by experience I cannot profit so much by our own Minister as by him I heat in private I mean as to my heart and life C. If I have any gaul in my heart I wish I knew my self better for I do not discern it but God willing I shall more search my heart and shall desire you calmly to consider of what I said As to your profiting I would ask is not that by the spirit of God I mean is not the spirit the Author of real grace in the heart and piety in the life N. C. Yes I believe it is what then C. Is it more in the power of a Non-conformist Minister to give grace than a Conformist N. C No but in those waters we find the spirit most moving must we not frequent most there C. I must deny that which you suppose to be true viz. that God's spirit doth ordinarily go along more with one mans preaching than anothers if both are Orthodox and honest N. C. I pray tell me how then it comes to pass that one man converteth more than another doth C. I answer that 't is not ordinarily because one Minister is more godly than another or a better preacher than another but because some are better hearers than others some do less resist and more close with the spirit than others do and I dare from my own experience say that the reason why you don't profit by your own Minister is your own fault only for as God is not tyed to place so neither to this or that man or to his parts or preaching And if you would take some advice given to me you would know how to profit by every man as I thank God I do by our own Minister N. C. Do me that kindness for my souls sake and you gain me for I desire to profit by hearing and if I can do that by our own Minister I 'le not forsake him C. I will therefore Neighbor open my heart to you and tell you I was once in your condition I thought to be affected with a Sermon was profiting by it and you know we are most apt to be affected with novelties and therefore I had an itching ear and seldom could be pleased with one man long and I did above all most loath and despise my own Minister as being stale to me God forgive me for it for I was highly pleas'd with him at first at last I began to reflect upon my self and to consider what good I had got by all these preachers I found that having got the name of a Professor I abhor'd to be guilty of any outward enormity and was very forward to dispute and talk of Religion and was usually very much affected in hearing and praying and I us'd to complain of a naughty heart and of the withdrawings of God if I were not so and I really thought my self in one of the highest forms of Religion but upon searching my heart and strictly observing my self I found I had