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A14057
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A new dialogue vvherin is conteyned the examinatio[n] of the messe and of that kynde of priesthode, whych is ordeined to saye messe: and to offer vp for remyssyon of synne, the body and bloud of Christe agayne.
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Turner, William, d. 1568.
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1548
(1548)
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STC 24363; ESTC S108032
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34,102
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104
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vnconsecrated wyne in the chalyce and vnconsecrated breade liynge vpon the chalice Now haue I proued by the very wordes of the messe that the ende of the messe is to purchase remission by offeryng of breade wyne to deserue euerlastynge lyfe by receyuynge and offeryng of Christes body to make fayre wether rayne to heale all sycknesses to bringe soules froÌ hel and to delyuer them from tormentes to honour sayntes and to make a memoriall of sayntes deathes and natiuites of the receyuyng of Christes body and bloud and otherwhyles to make the same of the offerynge of breade and wyne These are the operations intentes and endes of the messe and the same are not the endes and operations of the supper of the Lorde for the ende of christis supper is to remeÌber christes death to gyue thaÌkes for our redeÌptioÌ and to remeÌbre that we all are meÌbres of one body and ought therfore one to loue an other Therfor the endes of the messe the operations of the same and the ende and intent of Christes supper are diuerse and differ much one froÌ another whereupon it foloweth that the messe and Chrystes supper doo dyffer and ar not al one Then can ye not say that the messe was ordeyned of God in the xxvi of Mathew and that the messe is the supper of the lorde decked semely appoynted with deceÌt apparell for such a mistery Palemon Yf ye haue no other places of scrypture to proue hat the messe was ordeyned of god theÌ ye haue hyther to brought furthe she muste be dryueÌ out of Christes church as a mere inueÌtioÌ of maÌ Therfor yf ye haue any mo places bryng them furth Philargy The messe is good all goodnes is of god as S. Iames sayeth euery good gyft and euery perfect gyft is from aboue descendynge from the father of lyght ergo the messe is of god Moreouer Christ sayeth in the .xiiii. of Iohn That coÌforter which is the holy ghost whom the father shal send in my name he shall teach you all thinges what soeuer I shall speake vnto you Loo here Christe promyseth that the holy Ghost shal teach the Apostles and the church all thynges that he shall speake after hys Ascension Then dyd Christe doubtles tell the Churche many thynges after hys Ascensyon whyche the holy Ghoste taught a greate whyle after and emonge those thynges that were onely taught after the ascention was the messe Also Iohn xvi Chap Christe sayeth I haue many thynges to say vnto you whych ye caÌ not beare now but when he shall come whych is the spirite of truthe he shall lede you into all truth Beholde here how that Christe dyfferred to shew the Apostles certayne verites tyll that he was asceÌded vp into heauen They was there some truthes tolde to the churche after that Christe was ascended which was not tolde of Christe before hys ascencion of and theÌ is no mentioÌ made in the .iiii. Euangelistes And surely as I haue sayde the messe is one of them whyche was not iaught before the ascention but aftet it as our mother the holy churche beleueth whose doctrine I wyll rather folowe then all the Lutherans in Germany though therwer CCCCC tymes as many mo then now are Magis enim credenduÌ est Marie veracique iudeorum turbae fallaci Saye not nowe but that ye haue now scripture alleged you to proue that the messe is of God Knouuleg Ye make a reasoÌ and brynge furthe scripture to proue that the Messe is of God But howe strong your reason is and how rightly ye haue alleged the scrypture I shall shortly declare Where as ye reasoÌ the messe is good al goodnes is of God ergo the messe is of God ye commyt a fallacy or a deceytful dryft of sophistry whych is called of the LogiciaÌs which hate such sophisticall deceytes Petitio principii that is when a maÌ wyl proue a thynge to be true by the same thinge or wyth an other that is as doubtfull as that is which is called into questioÌ The chefe matter that we go aboute in thys accusation is too proue that the messe is vngodly full of blasphemy and therfore ought to be put out of the church And yet ye very wyttely allege thys for a prynciple and out of al controuersy that the messe is good and coÌclude that therfore it is of God No no syr ye caÌ not bleare my eyes so Proue ye fyrst that the messe is good and then shal I graunt you your conclusioÌ that it is of God To the place whych ye allege out of the .xiiii. of Iohn wherwith ye would proue that Christ taught the Apostles the church certayn doctrine that he taught not before his ascentioÌ wherof ye saye that the messe is one I answere that ye allege the scrypture false for it is not in the text as yon allege it he shall teache you what soeuer I shall saye vnto you but what soeuer I haue said vnto you I take to witnes both Erasmus translation the Greke text which is thus Ekinosymas didaxi panta kai ypomnesi ymas panta osa eipon ymin that is to say he shall teache you all thynges put you in remembrauÌce of al thynges whatsoeuer I haue sayd vnto you And here may all meÌ se how crafte ye and vnfaythfully ye cite the scrypture allegynge one tence for an other and leauynge out the pryncipall part of the sentence As touchynge the place whiche ye allege oute of the .xvi. of Iohn in these wordes I haue many hinges to say vnto you but ye caÌ not beare theÌ now But wheÌ he shall come which is the spriet of truth he shal lede you into all truth I answer that ye caÌ not proue by this place that the holy gost taught the church any doctrine which the Apostles Euangelistes haue not left behinde theÌ en theyr wrytinges Yf ye say that they could not abide diuers thinges before Christes ascentioÌ I say that they could abyde the same after hys ascentioÌ Yf ye would apply in this seÌteÌce this word you only vnto the church after the apostles tyme not to the apostles ye do the apostles playn wroÌg for Christ sayd these wordes vnto theÌ TheÌ what can ye gather of this place Christ promised the apostles that the holy ghost should lead theÌ into all truth dyd he so or no yf he performed his promise the knew the apostles all truth no parte of the truth was vnknoweÌ vnto theÌ The apostles also was eyther vnfaithfull disobedieÌt seruauÌtes vnto christ or thei were faithfull obedient Yf they were faithful obedieÌt thei kept thes his coÌmaÌdemeÌtes Speake that in the lyghte whyche I spake in darkenes and speake ye that openly that ye haue hearde pryuely But Christe taught by the holy ghost the Apostles all truthe then were they eyther disobedient seruauntes or elles they taughte in theyr wryttynges all truth Yf they taught al truth in theyr wryttinges yet
to almyghty god that we shal haue no vprores at all Where as ye would haue the matter deuolued vnto some spirituall iudge thynkynge that I am not able to iudge of thys mater for lacke of knowlege and learnyng in matters of religion I would not that ye should reken me to be vnlearned in Goddes law because I am no Bishop as though only bishoppes and prelates were spirituall men and none elles Qui non habet spiritum dei hic non est eius He that hath not the spirite of God he is not hys But all true Christen men haue the spirite of God then are al Christen men spiritual meÌ TheÌ must ye eyther take me for no Christen man or elles graunt that I am a spiritual iuge As for my knowelege in the holy scripture thoughe many of my predecessors haue bene to theyr greate shame shamefully ignorauÌt in the scripture I would ye should knowe that I haue bene brought vp in humanitie Logike and diuinitie ân the vniuersite of Cambryge tyll I was .xxii. yeres olde and that seÌce that tyme though the coÌmon law hath ben my chefe study I haue diligently read the scriptures from the begynnyng to the ende wherby thankes be vnto the Lorde thus muche knowlege haue I gotten that I can discerne true religiân from superstytyon and knowe my âhepherdes voyce from a straungers Thys saiyng of Dauid Et nunc reges intelligite crudimini iudices terre Get you vnderstandyng ye kynges and be you learned ye iudges of the earth This senteÌce made me reade the scriptures sence I was a iudge more hedefully and attentely then euer I dyd before Therfore ye shall not nede to haue the matter deuolued vnto an other iudge Now yf ye haue any thynge agaynste this woman speake and ye shal haue audience Knouuleg holde ye your opinion styll that ye are ordeyned of allmyghty god and I pray you in what place of the Bible dyd God order you mastres missa Porphir Christ ordined the blessed messe in the .xxvi. of Math. the .xiiii of Marke the .xxii. of Luke and in the .xi. of the former epistel to the Corinthians knouulege there is no mention of the messe in any of these places Porphiry What maketh mater whether the name be ther or no yf the thing be there We ought rather to seke for the thynge it selfe alwayes more then for the name of it knouulege How do men discerne and knowe thynges but by theyr names then seynge that ther is no meÌtioÌ made of the messe in these places rehersed howe shall we knowe that Christe ordeyned the messe there ⪠Porphiry ye shall knowe that Christâ ordeyned the Messe by Christes wordes wherwyth he ordeyned that thynge that we call the messe knowlege Reherse the wordes I pray you wherwyth Christe institued the messe Porphyry these they be Dominus Iesus in âa nocte qua traditus est etc. The Lorde Iesus in the ntght that he was betrayed toke breade and after that he had gyuen thaÌkes he brake it and sayd Take eate thys is my bodye whyche is broken for you doo this in the remembrauÌce of me After the same maner to âehe the cup after the supper was don and sayd This cup is the new testameÌt in my bloude doo ye thys as oft as ye shall drynke in the remembraunce of me By these wordes dyd Christe instytute and ordeyne the Messe knouulege And wyth the same wordes he instituted the Lordes suppe then is the Messe and the Lordes supper all one thynge Porphyry They are all one thynge in verye dede therfore they that rayle agaynste the blessed Messe rayll also agaynste the supper of our Lorde Knouuleg Yf the Messe and the supper of the Lorde be all one thyng the ryghtes the housell the sacrament of Christes body and bloud and the supper of the Lorde are al one thynge then the messe the housell the rightes the sacrameÌt of Christes body and bloude and the supper of the Lorde ar all one thyng Wherof it foloweth that whosoeuer may celebrate or do any of these may also celebrate or doo all the rest But all the lay men in Englande may celebrate the supper of the Lord and may receiue theyr ryghtes or housell as well as preistes therfore they may all celebrate or do messe as well as preistes may Yf the supper of the Lord or houstyng and the messe be all one thyng whatsoeuer then belongeth vnto the one belongethe also vnto the other and what soeuer is requyred to the celebratynge of the one is also requyred to the celebratyng of the other But a shauen croune a preiââes goun an albe a stole a vestiment confiteor misereatur collectes sequeÌces secretes canon memento eleuatioÌ of the sacramente remembraunce of âayntes departed offering vp of christ for remissyon of synnes breakynge of breade in .iii partes one for them that ar in Purgatory an other for theÌ that are in heauen the thyrde for them that are alyue washynge of a mannes fyngers myxynge of water and wyne togyther ar necessarily requyred of him âhat shall saye messe then yf it be true that ye say that the messe and Christes supper whych the common people cal theyr housell or ryghtes are all one âhyng then is it requyred that all meÌ whych shall celebrate the Lordes supper or receyue theyr howsel must haue shaueÌ crounes prestes gownes albes stoles and vestimentes vpoÌ theyr backes they must say secretes and sequeÌces collectes canoÌ they must breake the hooste in .iii. partes and offer vp of freashe Christes body for remissyoÌ of synne wyth all the other superstitions toyes and bables aboue rehersed But these ar not requyred of hym that shal celebrate the supper of the Lorde and yet are requyred of him that shall celebrate messe it foloweth therfore that the supper of Christ and the messâ are not all one More ouer yf the supper of the Lorde and the messe were al one when as a lay man maye as welâ receyue the supper of the Lorde for ãâã preist as a preist can do for a lay man then might a layman as wel say messâ for a preiste as a preist can do for a laâ maÌ But I do not doubt but ye thinkâ that to be an incoÌuenience and coÌtrarâ to your ofte commended order then â it not conueniente that the supper oâ Christe and the messe shoulde be rekâned all one Philargyrus Me thynk that ye spake of late wonderous vâ discretly and vnreuerently and otheâ wyse theÌ it becommed a Christen maâ to doo where as ye called the holy vâ stimentes whyche the preiste weareâ ãâã the honoure of Christe who is present at the messe superstitious toyes and bables seyng that they were consecrated to holy vses by holy prayers ând by the inuocatioÌ of goddes name When ye go to speake with a great maÌââo ye not wel to put on the best clothes âhat ye haue shall a preiste then doo ââmisse when he putteth on better cloâhes theÌ the coÌmon people wereth