Some Drops of the Viall powred OUT IN A SEASON WHEN IT IS Neither Night nor Day OR Some Discoveries of Iesus Christ His Glory in severall BOOKS viz. 1. The New Quaere 2. The Opening of the Vindication 3. The Smoake in the Temple 4. The Groanes for liberty 5. The Divine Right of Presbytery discussed 6. An End of One Controversie 7. Reasons for Vnity Peace and Love And Shadowes flying away All which Books are here reprinted in one Booke entirely after the severall Impressions of them and presented to the Reader 1 King 19. 11 12. But the Lord was not in the Winde and after the Winde an Earthquake but the Lord was not in the Earthquake and after the Earthquake a fire but the Lord was not in the fire and after the fire a still small voice and the Lord was in that By John Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. TO HIS EXCELLENCY Sir THOMAS FAIRFAX Generall of all the Forccs raised for the PARLIAMENT Right Honourable THe severall pieces thus rallied were never writ in my own power or appointment but I had commonly some juncture of Providence and something of a Spirit not my own upon me for I observed I could not write when I would my Springes were not in me nor could I end when I would till I had finished this Testimony and for something of God here I am sure there is enough of man of my selfe Thus is Gods appearing while we are in the Body he was in Christs which had no sin but he is not so in ours which are full of sin I have some few things to say and they ars things of duty from me and of truth to you that God hath filled the story of your life with himselfe with his Power Wisdome and Love and all that he may be your fulnesse and that you would glory in the Lord Let me remind you how you have seen him from Leedes to Bradfoorth to Wetherby to York to Hull even from Yorkeshire to Lincolneshire from thence to Naseby and so through the Conquest of Cities Towns Castles through so much almost as a Kingdom comes to And now after all this enter into your rest even the love of God the Son of God and there refresh your selfe in his light in his glory in the bosome of his love there are pleasures for evermore this is a piece of your coursest worke to beare the Sword for him who is the Power of God upon Earth for the punishment of evill doers in the world the more glorious worke is your Spirituall where Principalities and Rulers and Spirituall wickednesse in high places flesh and bloud are all against you and yet you above them all in him through whom you are more than Conquerour even him that loved you Sir Let it be not your busines only to Conquer as a man but as a Saint not as a Souldier but as a Christian not in the spirit of man but of God Let not a sin a lust a temptation stand more before you in the body then an enemy in the field gird on your spirituall Armour your Shield of faith your brestplate of righteousnesse your Sword of the Spirit your Helmet of Salvation and put on your white lining which is the righteousnesse of the Saints and follow him who rides on the white Horse in a vesture dipt in the bloud of his sufferings whose name is the Word of God and tell me if ever there was Glory like unto this Glory I cannot reckon the mighty men of valour in the world any thing but a worldly glory which if it dyed not with them or some ages after them yet can live no longer than the life of the world all these things are perishing but to be a man of the holy Spirit a man borne of God a man that wars not after the flesh a man of the Kingdom of God as well as of England Thus you shall live beyond time and age and men and the world gathered up into the life which is Eternall and was with the Father Sir Your dwelling now is much in the shadow of death and amongst the Graves and therefore so live in Christ your life that you may have one life more then men can kill men can only kill the man not the Christian. Sir I will not praise you but blesse God for you and his Image in you this will make great men love God and not themselves to speake of them as his not as their own Now Sir so warre that you may be still a man of peace in the midst of battell and of compassions in the midst of sufferings never wearing your Laurell without some Olive that all may know when you act as a Magistrate and as your selfe when you act from power or when from love from Justice or when from mercy So love as you may love God and Christ in men more then men and the Spirit in any more then the Forme either of Presbytery or Independency Thus Brethren who can now scarcely love one another because of that shall love you and shall learne to love one another from you Noble Sir Your humble servant IOHN SALTMARSH A New Quaere At this time seasonably to be considered as we tender the advancement of TRVTH PEACE Viz. Whether it be fit according to the Principles of true Religion and State to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdome hastily or not and with the Power commonly desired in the hands of the Ministers By IOHN SALTMARSH Preacher of the Word at Brasteed in Kent 2 Cor. 10. 8. Our authority which the Lord hath given for Instruction and not for destruction LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-End of S. PAULS 1646. A Quaere Whether it be â—it according to the Principles of true Religion and State to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdom hastily or not and with the Power commonly desired in the hands of the Ministers _1 THe Rules laid down in the Word for practicall Obedience are these in part Let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind Rom. 14. 5. ver 23. and whatsoever is not of faith is sin Now the setling of any Government upon a people who are yet generally untaught in the nature and grounds of it is to put upon the people the practice of that wherein it is impossible they can be fully perswaded in their minds and so either on a necessity of sin or misery 2 There is great danger of bringing people under a Popish implicite Obedience by forcing on a practice of that which they scarce know or know but in part And this is against the Nationall Covenant to side with any Principles of Popery And we know it by experience that the people have been ever devoted to any thing the State sets up all the disputes or conscience of the common people usually ending in this Whether it
with such power from heaven became it is not managed according to pure Gospell-order nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted so as the fault is not because there is a Government as the Vindication observes but not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed And for his Charge against the purer Congregations as I know not any such doings amongst them so I will make no Apologie for them because that would bring them within the compasse of something like a crime and I know nothing but well by them THE NEW QVAERES Folio 1. Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT ASSEMBLY Quaere 1. VVHether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament not backed with Authority of the Civill Magistrate be not like to prove an impotent and invalid and ineffectuall meanes Whether it be not a far better way in point of Conscience and Prudence to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament not actually excommunicated though they thereby eat and drinke judgement to themselves then to deprive any to whom it really belongs Antiquaere 1. Whether is there any excommunication or no For the Vindication questions it in calling it an invalid thing and if so How can any such thing be setled at all as an Ordinance in the Church Whether ought Authority to joyne it selfe with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it Since nothing hath proved more fatall Whether excommunication being granted be any such bare thing as the Vindication speaks on so impotent 〈…〉 and ineffectuall without being Authorized from a power from men And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword Whether all the differences about Excommunication be not from the want of true Church-constitution And whether a Nationall Church be not too wide for the Ordinances and the Scabbard too big for the Sword And whether Solomons Temple and Christs be all of a largenesse so that one golden Reed will measure both Whether the old Temple that had Windowes of narrow Lights be any pattern for the new Whether any thing of Prudence As admitting scandalous persons to eat their owne damnation as the Vindication saith Rather then to deprive them to whom it really belongs be any Scripture-way of arguing which forbids us not to doe evill that good may come thereby Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons seeing though it may really belong to them yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing nor judging but only by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there for Administration of Ordinances can faithfully administer but accordingly for they that walke according to this Rule peace be on them and on the Israel of God Whether the Law of God in this be not as equitable as the Law of Man which judges not of secrets nor takes cognizance of things unknown Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons only sin who if he have a reall interest will not live in the evidence of it nor walke by the Rule of Administrations that he may partake Quaere 2. Fol. 51. Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament being no Ordinance of Christ without a totall suspension will not be a meanes rather to harden And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclayming being accompanied with serious Admonitions Exhortations publike and serious Reprehensions Reasons 1. Because that such persons are more hardned by it totall exclusion only working shame 2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent they will be holy for a day or two and make vows c. and may be so converted 3. Many then will read c. which would not do so before in an Hypocriticall conscience and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reforme 4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations Exhortations c. that ten to one would be converted by such admonition rather then by suspention therefore Christ when he came to save sinners permitted them familiarly to him and his Ordinances Antiquaere 2. Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds being a questionable Ordinance as well as suspention one of them may not be as well made use on as the other Suspention as well as Excommunication upon his grounds Whether the Admonitions Exhortations Reprehensions Examinations be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to or rather to quicken and spiritualize the worthy receivers who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations as the whole straine of Scripture precept and practice speake Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers as the Scriptures never speak on For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons who were constituted according to the Rule and for Corinth and the rest that had such bad Members they are not examples in that of gathering or constituting or administring but reforming as the Apostles who calls them to the rule of the Word This one mistake hath deceived many Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly when he was here in the flest be any rule for admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spirituall Ordinances And whether there be not a spirituall difference betwixt Christ not offered and offered betwixt his conversing in the flesh for making up the mystery of Redemption and the mystery of Redemption made up and finished by the eternall Spirit in which he offered himselfe betwixt Christ in the flesh and in the Spirit or Ordinance Whether did Christ intend his ordinary or occasionall converting to be any rule for his Church or Kingdome in its Administrations or Ordinances which is a worke of another forme And whether this intermingling of carnall and spirituall notions be a Scripture-way Whether ought we to force any consequences or inferences upon the Word for practise in administrations in things neither clearly nor intentionally for ought we see nor mystically directed appointed or instituted by Christ And whether such a ground once granted will not let in one kind of will-worship as well as another And for that ten to one being converted so as he sayes Quere Whether it is not ten to one any will be a converted but rather hardned Quere 3. Fol. 53. Whether did Christ ever intend that none but true believers should receive his Supper or did he not infallibly know that many unregenerate and impenitent should and would receive it And the Antagonists grant that close Hypocrites have an external right then if these why not others Christ having ordained the Sacrament of the Supper as well as the Word to be a savour of death to such and God hath his end in both the glory of his Justice in the one as well as of his Grace and Mercy in the other Antiquaere Whether
c. And those Families the children of the Bond-woman and of the free never bearing but persecuting each other So as all of pure spirituall constitution cannot but experimentally finde a spirituall nature in themselves working them into a more glorious fellowship then that of the world The sum of the Argument If then there be two contrary natures of Spirit and Flesh if these cannot nor never could in experience of all Ageâ— and according to the truth in Scriptures and example of all there beare each other into the same spirituall society or fellowship if nature it selfe in the creatures run out into antipathies and sympathies that is into particular gatherings and separations mutuall opposings and resistings of each other when together Then spirituall and unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world and men of the world is warrantable But all this is undeniably true to the experience of all Therefore spirituall unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world and men of the world is warrantable II. Argument from the Power of Spirituall Ordinances and Dispensations THe Gospel-Ordinances brought into the World a power and spiritual Law in them though in degrees and measures and severall givings out as in Johns time and his Disciples in Christs owne time and his Disciples and in the Spirits time and according to these times of manifestation believers were wrought upon in Johns time they came out to the Baptism of Water in Christs and his Disciples to the preaching of the Word in the Spirits time to the Bâ—pâ—â—sme of the Spirit to a more mighty and glorious working and all these times of Gospel-manifestation had a prevailing losse and more upon the believers of these severall times in drawing them out from the World in part though weakly in Johns time it is said Then came out unto him all Judea yet though they were Baptised of him they gathered not off into such particular societies as after The Kingdome of God then was but at hand in Christs time though his preaching was powerfull yet he let out the glory of his spirit but sometimes with the Word reserving his more glorious manifestations for other times and even here though Christs preaching gathered in his Apostles and Disciples into some particular and neerer way to himselfe yet not many more nay he rather left many partly in that mixed condition of society he found them and so the Disciples Commission which was given was to preach but little yet of Church gathering but by way of Prophecy as in Matt. 16. and 18. The Kingdome of God was but yet at hand not come In the Spirits time then the Kingdome of God was come and then a mighty operation and measure of the Spirit was powred out and then the believers through the powerfull working were brought more off from the World and began to gather in closer to Christ and one another And now all power was given to Christ which was not before his Resurrection and now he sets up a Kingdome All power is given into my hands and now the Kingdom begins to be set up in the hearts and practice of believers and the Spirit to mold and cast the believers into Brotherhoods and societies and the forme of a Kingdome and now the Laws and spirituall policy are given out for ordering this Kingdome And we see how the people of God in Rome Corinth Ephesus Galatia drew off from the world in the things of the Lord. We see then how the Word did begin to worke Believers into a fellowship from the world and the more the spirit was given the more and more off from the world in all these severall times And it is a rationall truth and a clear conclusion even to meer reason that the more Christ and his Spirit is in any the more neer and close they will gather up to heaven and walkings with God and the more Christward any one is the more off still from the multitude of the world And thus the Ordinances of Jesus Christ in which the Spirit breathes so powerfully worke men off from the mixed world into fellowship with the Lord and that spirituall fellowship makes them rejoyce more in one another then in any other that are more carnall The more men live to Christ the more they dye to the world and are formed into the fellowship of his death and Resurrection The sum of the Argument If then the Ordinances and Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ had ever a power in some degree of prevailing upon the soules of Believers according to the manifestation of the Spirit and if this Spirit flowing from God and Christ carry up the soule to God and Christ according to the measure given to those Beleevers and if the more they are carried towards Christ the more they must come off from the world Then Congregationall or Church-order wherein Beleevers are gathered into fellowship with God in Christ and one another from the world in the things of the Gospell and unmixt communion is warrantable But all this is undeniably true from the Word Therefore Church-fellowship and unmixt Communion is warrantable Argument III. IF mixed communion and society came in upon the Apostacy and falling away and Parochiall Congregations were formed up afterwards from such mixt Communion If as Antichrist prevailed so darknesse and corruption prevailed upon Beleevers If Churches were called Golden Candlesticks before and a Fellowship of Saints and the Body of Christ and Kingdom of God till they grew mixed If the mixt Congregations by Parishes came in first by Dyonisius Bishop of Rome in the yeare 267. and in England by Honorius Bishop of Canterbury and people were only made Congregations by conveniency of situation and the Law of Civill Policy If Parishes were first the seats of Popery and after the seats of Prelacy and now fall under the Presbytery in the same kind and Notion of a mixed multitude Then mixt and Parochiall Congregations are not that way and order of Christ for Ordinances which was the Primitive way revealed and practised in the Gospell But all this is undeniably true from the best Historians Therefore not mixt Communion and fellowship but pure and unmixt is the only Ordinance of Christ Now I shall leave you for the present and commend particulars unto you and the Kingdom the one A Rule of Evidences for Spirituall Communion drawn from the Scriptures the other A remarkeable passage in the Book of Vindication The Rule of Evidences for Spirituall-Communion MAtth. 15. 26. Chap. 18. 19 20. Joh. 10. 16. Acts 2. 44 46. Chap. 19. 9. Rom. 1. 7. Chap. 16. 17 18. 1 Cor. 1. 1 10. Chap. 5. 4 5 11 13. and 12. 12 13 14 20 25 27 2 Cor. 5. 6 7. Chap. 6. 14 15 16 17. Gal. 5. 9 10 12 13. Chap. 6. 16. Ephes 4. 3 4 25 Chap. 5. 1 2 11 12 21 30. Pâ—il 3. 15 16 17. 1 Thes 3. 6. 2 Thes 3. 14. 1 Tim. 6. 3 4 5. 2 Tim. 3. 5. Tit. 3.
hath it not a Jus divinum a Divine Right put upon it if all be of the Holy Ghost in it But I would not mistake you you say only that all is by the dictate of the Holy Ghost of the Assembly and Parliament So it is but part then by your own confession of the Holy Ghost the rest is of the Assembly and Parliament You say The builders have had speciall regard to Jesus Christ the Foundation I will not suspect the Counsels and Debates of any of the builders I know the Disciples of Christ were true Disciples though they had not all of the Spirit at one time which they had at another I hope and I pray that the Lord will make up to the builders what of the Spirit he hath not given them that they may both see to build right and see where they have builded wrong and so pull down againe as well as set up And whereas you say The building may go on by Master Saltmarsh his own consent I say your building will go on it seems whether Master Saltmarsh consent or no. Master Ley in his capacity is better able to put it on at this time then Master Saltmarsh is to put it off to another time unlesse the Lord who is above all and hath the mighty even the Princes of the earth to command work for his own glory above all that we can or think Master Ley's Resolution pag. 38 39 40. To the second Objection and Answer of Heresies and Schisms and so they might have done from Iohn's first Sermon he saith 1. Why doth he begin with Iohns first Sermon Were not the Esseans c. Hereticks and Schisma icks See Epiphanius c. 2. He makes Pauls Epistles the terminus ad quem which from John's first Sermon to the last make up Twenty nine yeers After the Epistles he brings in the sending the Spirit c. which was but five yeares after the first Sermon of John Baptist 3. Before the end of the Epistles that Government was not which we find in Scripture and if so the Church-Government was not long suspended 4. Nor would it prejudice our expedition People of that Age could not be so easily gathered as with us they may be 5. What was long in establishing in Primitive times cannot be said to be hastily done now after so many discussions and deliberate resolutions Reply You say first Why begin I for Hereticks and Schismaticks from John's first Sermon I begin there because there began the mystery of the Gospell And yet I shew you that no Government began with that Gospell manifestation by which I made appeare that if Government had been of such morall necessity why was it not given out with the Gospels first giving out Now you prove in a chronologicall discourse the space of time from Johns Sermon to Pauls Epistle to make the time appeare for Government And after you have summed up all the time and periods and find it no two or three yeers work you conclude People of that age could not be so easily gathered as now Nor the long establishing then to be an hasty establishing now And now after all this discourse and ravellings out of time from Johns Sermon c. What have you gained Not that the Government was soon setled Then you have proved much to my advantage and in a clearer and fuller computation then I did the contrary So as you have only been taking some learned paines if you well observe and the Reader well observe you to prove that the Government at first was not suddenly cast into modell nor brought forth in practise which is the very thing I aimed at and truly your pains in it have been more exact then mine and I thank you for it But you say It ought not to be so now nor can it be said to be hastily done now that was done so long ago You say true in that But you know the same Spirit must reveale it that formed it and it formed it at first by degrees and the way of Revelation hath been more year's then the first farming reckon but your Antichristian years as exactly as you have done your first Christian and Primitive yeares and you may be more satisfied So as all both the first Revelation of it from Prophesies and the latter from Antichristianism makes all for the not hastening which I aimed at Indeed if you can as infallibly assure us this forme and modell is the very forme then given out it were very true that you say That it cannot be said to be hastily done now what was done so long agoe viz. If it be that very one which was done so long ago For your exception against me concerning my placing the giving of the Spirit so late if you interpret sense by the strict order of words you will lose many a Scripture truth in the words as you well know Master Ley's Resolution Page 40 41. To that of Heresies c. he saith What if they do not ster up their Patrons against the State c. but they busily poyson the soules of the people and shall they if as Paul Best be suffered to blaspheme and reproach and perturb the publike Peace An Indulgence much like old Elies c. If Truth be not more precious then Peace why doth our Saviour say He came not to send peâ—ce And why do the Fathers contend so against the Arrians about a letter And why we so with the Romish Religion rather then be at peace with them For that of morall transgressions he would have the Magistrates set on Set on By whom We have not such meane thoughts of the Magistrate as to make mention of him in such terms of disparagement And for all his Disciplines regulating men for religious walking there will be worke enough for the Magistrate to bring them under civill tryall for câ—ntumaâ—ie c. Reply You say What If hereâ—ies stir not up they poyson souls If they poyson let the Gospel-antidote be applied then and no other way which the Gospell will not beare noâ— allow there is the sword of the Spirit and weapons not carnall but mighty and spirituall For that of old Elies indulgences which you speak on you are still looking upon Moses though you tell us of Christ Make the Kingdome of Israel and of England the same a Iewish and Christian State the same and then we shall allow you both Elies sin and his sons maintenance by tythes offerings You say Truth is more precious then peace yet there is a peace precious as well as Truth even the Peace of Christ as well as the Truth of Christ But to the businesse You would prove Truth to be precious to the disadvantage of Peace and therefore you bring in the Fathers against the Arrians and us against the Papists and Christ against Peace But what would you prove Would you prove that truth ought to be established against peace and peace to be no way to truth Surely truth and
be established by Law or no and going usually no higher nor further then a Statute or Act of State for their Religion 3. Christ Iesus himselfe could as easily have setled his Gospell-Government by miracle as any can now by a Civill power if there had been such a primary or moral necessity of establishing it so soon upon a people scarce enlightned for any part of it But we see the contrary first in himselfe he taught long and Iohn before him and so the Disciples and the gâ—â—â—s for Government were not given till he ascended and the Modell for Government not brought forth but by degrees and as people fell in and were capable of the Yoake and would â—ould more easily to the Commandements of Christs and whether then or no is yet a Question which some who have sit out the debates too though not with me who am fully assured of a power of order which the Apostle rejoyced to behold though a power with as little dominion in Government as tradition in Worship 4. We never read in the new Testament of a Gospell-government setled upon any that were not brought first under Gospell-obedience by the power of the Word and Spirit which thousands of Congregations in this Kingdom are not For as in materiall Buildings Stone and Timber are not to be clâ—pt together without howing and squaring so nor in the spirituall And whereas in the Temple there should neither be Axe nor Hammer heard because things were fitted before hand and so laid together I question how this could be in our Congregations now I beleeve there would be now more of the Axe and the Hammer heard then of the building seen 5. We have found by experience that the speedy setling of Government upon the Nation hath made Reformation take little root save in the outward man or formall Obedience and the reason was Because they received not Reformation first in the power of the Word but of the State which went not so deep into their Consciences but they could part with it at any time upon a Law Oh then Why do not daies speake and multitude of yeares teach knowledge 6. It is against the nature of Christs description of himselfe and against that sutablenesse which he presses for amongst all such as should submit to his Commandements He shall not strive nor cry neither shall any man heare his voyce in the streets Matth. 11. 19. My yoke is easie and my burden light Matth. 11. 29. His Commandements are not grievous 1 Joh. 5. 3. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles All which cannot be fulfilled in the Parochiall Congregations 7. The more time for trying the spirits and proving all things there is lesse danger to that State of errings in things received and authorized and of involving it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power then which nothing hath sooner broken the Civill power as may be seen in Popish Kingdoms and our late Prelaticall There can be no great danger in the not sudden incorporating the two powers Since Moses is not alive to bring down the just Paterne of the Tabernacle there may a new Star arise which was not seen at first which if we shut up our selves too soone while the smoake is in the Temple cannot appeare 8. We have not yet any experiment of our new Clergie who are many of them branches of the old stock and so may weild the Government too much of the Episcopall Faction as the Samaritans did with the Iewish Government because they were not naturall Iews It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands Our Brethren of Scotland have been more used to the way of Presbytery and may better trust one another upon mutuall experience then we can yet 9. We experience in part some remainders of Prelacy working in many which shewes a constitution not so cleare nor pure as the Disciples of Christ should have then whether it be safe committing the power too suddenly For though I question not but some may be like the ten yet there are others like the two Brethren who strove which should be greatest till the Lord ended the difference It shall not be so amongst you We find the hottest Controversie is now moved about Church-government and there hath been most written and spoken this way and in most violence Now when the contention for power is so much and the Controversie streames most in Government we may soon discerne dispositions Well is it good parting with the stakes yet while there is such quarrelling for them when one party cannot but take it for an injury if wholly given to the other It is to be feared there is too much of man because the bias runs most in these times towards this one truth of government many other are wholly set by which might well be lookt upon with it which if there were not a Principle in man more fitted for a truth of this kind then any other would not be But every truth hath its age and season This only for caution 10. There is no Religion established by State but there is some proportion in the two Powers and some compliancy betwixt the Civill and Ecclesiasticall so as the establishing the one will draw with it some motions in the other And we all see how hazardous it is to disinteresse any in the Civill part even in Kingdomes that are more firme as France where the Protestants are partly allowed their Religion in pay for their Civill engagements and so in other States And sure I am that State is most free where the conscience is least straitned where the Tares and the Wheat grow together till the harvest 11. Our parties or dissenting Brethren being now together and clasped by interest against the common enemy this foundation of common unity is such as may draw in both affections and judgements if not too suddenly determined into Hereticks and Schismaticks It is possible while a Controversie is long suspended and time given for conclusion of things Opinions may be sooner at peace A fire let alone may dye out under that wood which stirred in would kindle it The Contentions of Brethren are like the strong bars of a Castle and a Brother that is offended is harder to be won then a strong City Prov. 18. 19. OBIECTIONS I. BUt the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs time and therefore c. And Haggai cals to the building Is it time Hag. 1. 4. Answ Yea but the matteriall Patterne was more clearly left and known then the Gospell-patternes The other were more in the letter and these more in the Spirit Now there must be a proving all things else there may be more hast then good speed and the Temple may be built by a false Paterne as well as a true and then better no Building then no right Cedar to build with And there were Prophets then who knew the periods of times and could Prophesie as Haggai and Zechariah but none
10. Heb. 10 â—â— 1 Pet. 2. 9. 1 Joh. 1. 7. 2 Joh. v. 10 11. Revel 2. 14 15 20. Chap 18. 4. and 19. 20. A remarkable Passage in the Vindication-Booke ANd if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach against that Catalogue of scandalous sins and sinners they have presented to the Parliament and the Parliament prescribe severe Temporall Lawes and Punishments against them and appoint good Civill Magistrates to see them duly executed inflicted I am confident that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one halfe yeare then all the Church-Discipline and Censures now so eagerly contested for will do in an Age and will be the only true way and speediest course to reforme both Church and State at once which I hope the Parliament will consider of and take care that our Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing but Preaching and Instructing which is worke enough wholly to engrosse their time and thoughts FINIS LEt this Way of Peace and Reconciler among Brethren intituled The Smoke in the Temple more then ordinarily usefull in these times be printed Imprimatur IOHN BACHILER The Smoke in the Temple WHEREIN IS A DESIGNE FOR PEACE RECONCILIATION of Beleevers of the severall OPINIONS of these Times about ORDINANCES to a Forbearance of each other in Love and Meeknesse and Humility With the opening of each Opinion and upon what SCRIPTURES each is grounded With the severall EXCEPTIONS which may be made against each Opinion from the SCRIPTURES With one Argument for Liberty of Conscience from the NATIONALL CONVENANT With another Argument to prove the Gospell or New Testament of Iesus Christ the very Word of God Tendred to all the Beleeuers to shew them how little we have attained and there is a more glorious Fulnesse to be revealed With a Discovery of the Antichristian way of Peace c. for Opinions With a full Answer to Master LEY One of the Assembly of Divines against my late New Quaere With some spirituall Principles drawn forth of the Controversie Rev. 15. 8. And the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power and and no man was able to enter into the Temple till the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled By Iohn Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell at Brasteed in KENT THE THIRD EDITION Printed for Giles Calvert at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-End of S. PAULS 1646. To the Right Honourable the Lord Vicount SAY and SEALE and Lieutenant Generall CROMWEL Noble Patriots IF I mistake not you may here single out somthing of the Lords from what is mine and discerne some beames of God amongst many things of man I know the candle of the Lord cannot shine any where with more snuff then in me however since the Lord hath lighted it I dare not but let it shine or rather glimmer before men I have writ your Names to my Book that I may be one of your Remembrancers amongst the rest to the advancement of Truth not but they who know ye know ye to be acted by a Spirit of Truth in your selves The Lord remember ye according to all the good ye have done in your severall Ministrations to this people and do that for ye which gives you most and yet takes most from ye even filling ye with himself till he hath emptied ye of all but his own glory and gathered ye up into the fulnesse and righteousnesse of himselfe in Christ where we are only nothing in our selves and every thing in him and surely the most and best and greatest thing he can do for the sons of men is thus to make them nothing in their own account that he that glorieth may glory in the Lord. I may seeme strange to wish ye thus but I know it is not strange to ye who know the Mystery of the Spirit and of Christ My Lord and Sir Go on still yet still laying your designes in a glory above that of States and Kingdomes and involving all your Counsels there where there is most of Heaven and least of the world So praies Your Servant in the Lord IOHN SALTMARSH To the Beleevers of severall Opinions for outward Ordinances or dispensations scandalously called Independents Presbyterians Anabaptists Seekers Brethren I Have fairly set down how far each of you have attained in the Mystery of Truth and surely we are all short of the glory which shall be revealed in the Temple or Church of God and there are such clouds rolling about each opinion that may darken it or something of it So as things are not so cleare as they are commonly taken by each of us If any man think he knoweth anything he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know So as the common ignorance and infirmity amongst us may be a rise for a common Vnity amongst us and seeing we all come out of Babylon though in several waies to the glorious Temple or Tabernacle which God hath sent down to be with men and walk thus diversly thither yet our severall and distinct goings are but like so many Travellers to the City of London some travell from the North some from the South and from the West some from the East yet all thither though too there may be some mistaking of the way in each because of the little light that is abroad The gathering of the Saints into the Heaven or Kingdom below in this day of Revelation is like the gathering at the last day which shall be all into one glorious Body though the gathering shall be from the four winds or ends of the Earth by the severall Trumpets or Angels One thing I have more Let us seek for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to open to us the Mystery of the Scriptures called The Revelation for in that Book is the Prophecie of the Churches laid up and the seasons and times for Truth revealed Let us search and seek out by the Spirit of Iesus even that Iesus which was in the Vision and gave it out to Iohn for there is none found worthy to open the Book with Seals but the Lambe Surely in the Mystery of Angels Vials Sea of glasse with fire Temple with Smoke the Angell with the everlasting Gospell the Angell enlightning the Earth the Whore in skarlet and pretious pearles the Cup of abomination the Beast like a Lamb the Image of the Beast the Horus and Kings of the Earth the marke in the forehead and in the right hand the buying and selling the Tabernacle of God with men the first and second Resurrection the Ihronâ— of God the pure Chrystall River of water the Holy Ierusalem descending from God c. In these is much of the glory wrapped up and from these shall the Truth we contend for appeare to our further enlightning Yet one thing more We that are thus contenders for Ordinances for the Temple and the Vessels in it let us
him and walked with and counted as his Some beleeved not the Holy-Ghost nor Christs Baptism and were zealous of the Law and yet the Disciples counted them as Beleevers Johns Disciples would have followed Iohn only but Iohn sent two of them to Christ at one time and told them againe he must increase but himselfe must decrease Christ in his time would not forbid any that went about in his Name There is none that doth any thing in my Name can lightly speak evill of me When the Spirit was given the Disciples bore one another out of the Church as the Beleevers of Iohns Baptisme and the zealots of the Law and one another in the Church they that did eat them that did not eat and they that regarded a day them that regarded not a day walking together as far as they attained by the same rule 16 No despising for too much learning or too little Let not one despise another for gifts parts learning let the Spirit be heard speak in the meanest let not the Scribe or Disputer of the Law despise the Fishermen nor they despise them because Scribes and Disputers The Spirit is in Paul as well as Peter in both as well as one 17 We may be in one Christ though divers Consider that we may be one in one Christ though we thinke diversly and we may be Friends though not Brethren and let us attaine to Vnion though not to Unity 18 The spirituall Persecution to be forborne Consider there is a twofold Persecution There is a spirituall or that of Beleevers and a mixt Persecution or civilly Ecclesiasticall The spirituall Persecution is that of the Spirit meerly and this kind of Persecution little thought on and studied this is when we cannot be are one anothers severall Opinions or soul-belief in the same spirituall Society or fellowship but they must either be of us or out of us and surely this kinde of Persecution is as unreasonable as any other for what is this but soul-compulsion when another must only beleeve as we beleeve and not wait till the Lord reveale even this This kind of spirituall compulsion will in time breake and dissolve the visible Communion of Saints and Body of Christ exceedingly if taken up or continued and it will be amongst Christians as amongst the Antichristians where they divide and subdivide and some cast themselves into a Monkery from all the rest Ierusalem and Antioch were not of this way to cast out one another upon such grounds but to meet reason and counsell and heare And surely the Churches can ill complaine of a mixt persecution from without if they persecute one another from within the Magistrate may as justly whip them both as they whip one another Such grudgings complainings dissolvings spirituall inforcings gives hint to the Civill power to compell while it beholds them but a little more spiritually coâ—pâ—lling one another Let all Church-rights priviledges boundaries be preserved all Heresie and Schism by the rule rebuked but in all spirituall meeknesse and wisdome and not call Heretick and Schismatick too suddenly since we see but in part THE UNWARRANTABLE WAY OF PEACE Or The Antichristian Designe of Reconciliation 1 To beleeve as the Church or Councels THat all should beleeve as the Church beleeves and this Church is the great Councels of Bishops Cardinals c as if the souls of all were to be saved only in the bundle of theirs as if they could beleeve both enough for themselves and all others 2 To set up one as the Pope for infallibilitie Because there may be difference amongst many and all may not agree therefore there shall be one say they with the Vrim and Thummim one infallibly decreeing and interpreting and unerring to whom the Spirit of Truth is successively derived and his determinations interpretations shall be finall conclusive and this that Vicar of Christ the Pope this one way in the Antichristian State and all Reformed Kingdomes were once under this Peace 3 To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes Because there be severall Beleevers and severall interpretations and opinions one saying This is the way and another That therefore say some All in all wayes may be saved every one beleeving every thing Now this is one way to make peace but not the way there is but one Lord one Faith one Baptisme 4 To forbid Interpretings and Disputes Because several opinions arise by interpretings and disputings about Scripture therefore all openings of the Word all disputings must be forborne Because the Sun-shine offends some weak sight in the house shut up doores and windowes and make all dark Thus the Papists and Prelats in forbidding Scriptures and Marginall Notes and thus fearing there may be somthing false they will heare nothing that 's true 5 By a compulsive power Some take the Civill power in to make peace reckoning a compulsive Vniformitie for Vnity Peace and Truth This is one way to deale with the body indeed but not with the soul to mind the outward man but not the inward This way of Civilly Ecclesiasticall peace is the Antichristian designe who having got the Kings of the Nations to give their strength and power and Kingdome unto them supplies that from the world which they want from the Word making the spirituall power of Iesus Christ to receive its honour life efficacie power from the power of men This way of peace is such as hath by experience troubled Nations and troubled it self at length too and broken it self against that way which it aimed to breake For whosoever fals upon this stone shall be broken and on whomsoever it shall fall it shall breake them to powder THE OPINIONS OF THESE TIMES With the Exceptions each Opinion may be charged withall being the great Argument for Love Meeknesse and Forbearance one to another or of Peace and Reconciliation till the Lord reveale more Presbyterie So called What it is and what they hold THe Presbyterie is set up by an alleadged Patern of the Eldership and Presbyterie of the Apostles and Elders in the first Churches of the Gospell strengthened by such Scriptures as are in the margin and by allusion to the Jewish Government and to appeals in Nature Their Churches are Parochial or Parishes as they are divided at first by the Romish Prelates and the Statute-Laws of the State Which Parishes and Congregations are made up of such Beleevers as were made Christians first by Baptisme in Infancie and not by the Word And all the Parishes or Congregations are under them as they are a Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Presbyterie And over those Parishes they doe exercise all Church-power and Government ‖ which may be called The power of the Keyes Exceptions 1. THe Apostolicall and Primitive Eldership were not so authoritative over their Congregations as these pretend nor so compulsive or forcing their respective Congregations 2. The Apostolicall Eldership and Presbyterie were more ‖ infallible
in things immediately divine and spirituall The consciences of men are under a spirituall and immediate Interpreter of the Word even the Spirit of the Lord in all things of spirituall cognizance as every Scripture-truth or Truth in the Word is and this is not only strengthened and cleer from the Word but from a testimony which some when they read may know better then many others By the Clause According to the Word of God we understand so far as we doe or shall in our consciences conceive the same to be according to the Word of God Now each man standing thus ingaged in his owne particular and in his own proper conscience by a Covenant recommended and imposed each is bound to bring forth the evidence of their consciences in particular concerning this to which they are covenanted So as I or you being covenanted against Popery Heresie and according to the Word of God you and I stand bound by our own private consciences to reveale to the State who hath recommended such a Covenant unto us what our consciences interpret according to this Word against Popery or Heresie unlesse there could be one universall or publike infallible Interpreter of the Word of God and Truth who might determine concerning Heresie and the Word of God and whose determinations is as in the formerly inspired Apostolical teachers we may rest So being thus ingaged by Covenant we are at the same time by one and the same Act bound to liberty of conscience in these particulars of the things of God And if there should be any persecution for the pious modest and peaceable liberty so taken and practised whether would it not clearly and undeniably follow that our consciences are not under the Lord Iesus and his Spirit immediatly in the things of God but under the interpretations of men And surely that one Clause according to the Word of God is most providentially inserted for if we be so closely covenanted to the Word of God how tender ought we to be lest in this dark season of our discerning we oppose somthing of the Word and so in ignorance persecute what we covenant to maintaine I wish our Assembly would presse this equally with the Covenant in their Sermons Object But must every one be the Interpreter of the Covenant Answ Nay not every one in every thing The Magistracy in all things of a civill cognizance and in all spirituall things which go out from their meer spirituall condition into a morall offence as injustice or evill transgression into tumult or disturbance of publike or private peace actually and expressely not interpretatively for so the Nations interpreted the Iewes as troublers of the State and the Iewes Christ and his Disciples as movers of sedition The Papists and Prelats interpreted the Nonconformists or reproâ—ched Puritans as factious and tumultuous So as in all things of Morall Civill or Secular cognizance which the Magistrate hath clear rule for to walke by He ought to interpret and proceed by partly because he is the Legislator and so is the best Interpreter and can best resolve us in things of Law and publike liberty and in morals his duty lies out more cleerly but in meerly divine and spirituall interpretations of Truth and Gospell-mystery the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are both the Legislators or Law givers and Interpreters to the conscience Obj. But shall there be no power to compell consciences into Uniformity Answ I shall give light to this by propounding a Case Suppose the severall godly parties or beleevers were equally principled for persecution or non-toleration and were equally numbred and were equally strengthened by parties of Magistracie on their side what would come forth according to such principles I sigh to consider There would be edge against edge authority against authority power against power and all the State or Kingdome involved into bloud and confusion So as we must consider things according to their principles not according to their temporary or occasionall advantages Object But you give not enough to the Magistrate Answ Yea more then any He that gives him that which God hath given him gives more then any that pretend to give him the most The pretenders that bid for the Magistrate at this time are 1. They that put him as an help and government in the Church as some viz. they of the Erastian way 2. They that make use on him but as an help to the Church extrinsecally and by way of forraigne assistance as others viz. they of the Presbyteriall way 3. They that give him power over body goods over all morall and civill behaviours of men Professors and Beleevers of what sort soever of what opinion soever as I and the rest of our Brethren do praying with all manner of supplication that under them we may lead a peaceable godly and quiet life Obj. But why dare you not ingage civill Magistracy in Religion over consciences as some others do Answ Yea in all things morally good and evill God hath ingaged them and hath set the Law and Light of nature and conscience in all people to side with them condemning and excusing what they and their Law doth condemne and excuse and thus to beare witnesse with their dominion and power But in things of pure Gospel-mystery and Evangelically good or evill I dare not ingage them whatever others doe over consciences because I give more to their just power and because I dare not draw them into such principles which hath broken more Magistracy then all the other plots and devices of men For things of Worship which are laid up in the pure simple mystery in the Light of the Spirit not of nature as all meer Gospell-mystery is to ingage the Magistrates Sword into these is rather a way to dash them against every mans conscience and so in time to lay in a fatall power or a fatall suffering We know that power which makes Kingdoms soundest in their Dominion and most lasting is the truest and wholsomest and surely that which ingages them lest into that part of the soule the conscience which can lest endure to be oppressed is the safest and most peaceable To my Reverend learned Freind M. LEY One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster Author of a Book called The Resolution of the New Quere published by Master Saltmarsh SIR I Shall give you a publike account according to your publike charge in your leafe concerning me That I intended to make you my Censor for some Papers which I did not publish Page 1. Sir those Papers were an Answer to Master Fullers last Book and the Question about Reformation betwixt him and me being so out of all Question as Master Herle serveth and â—e as I heard being dead made me rather put up my Arrows into their Quiver then shoot them at such a mark For my contending with you in this I hope it is but as that of Paul and Barnabas and Paul and Peter a contention of Brethren not
We are not of those that speake evill of dâ—gâ—iâ—ies or despâ—se government unlesse you count your Presbyterie to be that government and dignitie spoken on by the Spirit and that remaines to be proved That which cannot be proved to be a Scripture-government cannot challenge a Scripture-law to defend or secure it You say If the Byas run most towards government it is but as it should be Yea if towards a Scripture-government else it is as it should not be and not as it should be You say The Bishops government 's put down some must be set up and that is Presbytery But there is one set up already a civill Parliament arie government and will you set up another above that or cordinate with that Will you set up one government to rule another or tutour another And must you needs set up as large a Dominion as the eivâ—ll Power hath Must our Presbytery be full as ample as high and supream as our Parliament Will no lesse territory or Kingdom serve it but all England Whole Nations Must Christs government be just as broad and long as the worlds You find not the golden Read for the Temple of that length Now Reader judg which government affects Dominion Which brings in whole Nations under the Scepter of it Poore Scripture-government can be content to sit down in a Village To the Church in thy house saith the Spirit In a City as Corinth and over but a few there the Saints only in fellowship to the Church in Corinth In a Countrey not over a Countrey so the seven Churches in Asia not to the Church of Asia or the Church Asia a Church taking in halfe part of the world Sure if Christ would have had such a Nationall compreliensive Church he could have converted King and Princes first and they should have given up their Scepterâ— and Kingdoms to Jesus Christ in the way of a Presbyterian Nay it ought to have been so Jesus Christ was bound in the way of righteousnesse to have be un the practice and modellâ— to us over whole Kingdoms having not left it in precept in the whole Gospell and we ought either to have had practice or precept to order and command us in what we obey You say If other Truths be set by it is by those that so oppose Government and not by the Presbyteriall I see the Presbytery must be in no fault Happy men that have nothing but Truth on their side You wish I had more caution in my mind and paper and â— shorter Refutation had served Cautions are not amisse both for you and me and I think you had need of more caution of the two by how much more vast and nationall the Government is you manage You that put yokes upon whole Nations in a day had need to have the cautions of a yeers provision laid in before hand And for your Refutation of my paper do not beare witnesse of yourâ—selfe let Truth judge bet wixt us and let the Reader pray for a spirit of discerning to judge both what is Truth and which is Truth that which you or I affirme Nor will I say I have made here a Refutation of yours If I have done well What have I that I have not received And if I have not the Lord enlighten and enable me to refute my selfe Master Ley's Resolution pag. 36 37 38. To that of his that the matteriall Temple was more clearly left and known then the Gospell paterne c. Answer 1. He would not be thought to side with Sanballat and Tobijah and so endeavours to shew some considerable difference 2. If it beâ—toâ— soon now for the Government will he set a time for it when it will be seasonable or will he have it stay till it be a matter all building or till we have inspired Prophets 3. It cannot be of too quick dispatch if we set it up by the dictates of the Holy Ghost in the New Testament nor the determination sudden if after consideration with Scriptures with the best Divines and collation of the exactest paterns after long debates in the Assembly of Divines where the dissenting and liberty to object and lastly received by Parliament 4. By the builders speciall regard hath been had to Jesus Christ for Foundation c. And now by Master Saltmarsh his consent the work may go on c. Reply You say I would not seem to side with Sanballat and Tobljah You say true I would not But every building is not Temple-work And though I would not with knowledge hinder the Temple of the living God yet if another kind of frame were in building I would do my best to hinder and be no Sanballat neither But they are Sanballats not whom man but whom the Lord counts so But surely they hinder more that set up another kind of Temple then Christs then he that advises to look well that all be right and Temple-worke that is set up To the difference I made of the materiall and Gospell-paterns you say nothing and that is the only considerable It may be as you said by me you are best able to deale with the other You say I should set a time then for the setting it up Yea I shall set you a time yet not in mine own authority but Christ's When your Patern is all Gospell and your people all qualified in that Gospellpatern then is my time for setting up and then is Christ's time too Nor would I stay you for a materiall building as you say You know I call you on to the Gospell I am very far from turning you back to the Law I call you on to Christ I would not turn you back to Solomon And for the inspired Prophets you tell me I stay for and would have you stay too Is not that a very Gospell-way to stay for the Spirit 's coming into the servants of the Lord Take heed of denying inspired Disciples You know it is part of the fâ—lâ—illing of the great Prophecie Acts 2. Indeed some of the Prelates many of them being uninspired themselves and having little of the Spirit or none would needs say therefore All inspirations and Spirituall enlightnings c. were ended in the Church because ended in them and because they were so carnall themselves they thought none was Spirituall And you remember how they made Laws even against the Spirit in Prayer I speake thus only to remember you who spoke most against inspiration and the Spirit lest you may let fall some words which may be taken up by some of that way to countenance them in their Invectives Not but that I esteem of you as one inspired your selfe in a measure and having the Spirit of God in you therefore I know the Spirit will be very tender in opposing the Spirit You say you ought to dispatch the Government because you have followed the dictates of the Holy Ghost of the Assembly and Parliament Then let me put one Question Why is it not called Christs Government Why
peace doe meet together nay they are so much one as there is even a truth in peace He that was Truth it self could say My Peace I leave with you But What of the contention spoken on of the Fathers and â—â— c. If there be any quarrelling for Truth either by the Fathers or us but in a Gospel-way we are not excusable neither doth Christ speak of truths drawing swords but of swords drawn against truth which is no Argument for you When Peter would draw a sword in the defence of truth Christ bid him put it up So far is he against your way of defending truth You say By whom should Magistrates be set on and that you cannot speak in such disparaging words By whom be set on By the legislative power by the Parliament The Parliament can set on their respective Committees Iustices c. and is this any disparagement I speak of subordinate Magistrates not of the supream You say There will be worke for the Magistrate enough to punish the contumacious c. That is in English the Presbytery will keep the Magistracy doing and now who disparages the Magistrate Who set them on work Who makes them their Deputy-punishers Nay Who is the Satan to whom the excommunicate are delivered It is an expression not much besides your principles and who disparages the Magistrate in that Master Ley's Resolution Page 41 42. To that of Truth being otherwise armed from Heaven I answer We thinke it not meet to divide the subservient means from the supreme power nor the exercise of Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall the sword of God and Gideon To that of the imputation of jealousie c. There is a godly jealousie which would set up as many securities as may be against Heresie and impiety The faulty jealousie is theirs that would stiffle the Government but there is a fear which we professe of Gods anger for connivance and communion with hereticall men c. There is in some an aversenesse to Heresie in a trne zeal and love of God There be many other causes of jealousie but I will take but that one of the Lords and Commons p. 43. If Master Saltmarsh â—ad well considered who were engaged c. he would not have undervalued their piety and prudence to compare them with Papists and Prelates I will conclude with a peece of his own politick advice c. Vpon such principles is Church-Government ordained for his Text out of the Revelation Rev. 18. 1. As he began so he ends with mis-application of Scripture Reply You say you cannot divide Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall That is from the Magistrates This is a signe without further Argument that you do not hold your government for Christs because it cannot be effectuall of it self without help from below and the world and to another power then its own nor is the sword of God and Gideon any faire and just proof for joyning Presbytery and Magistracy it joynes only God and the Magistrates You say Your godly jealousie will set up as many securities as may be But then they are warrantable and Gospel-wayes of security That is no godly jealousie which sets up other wayes as Herod killing all the children to secure his Kingdome David dissembling to escape Iacob to get a blessing there is jealousie but no godly jealousie nor warrantable security So to secure any way though of truth by a power not allowed on in the Gospell as no such compulsive power is in your way is not to be jealous with a godly jealousie though I deny not but some of those may be godly who are so jealous but not in that You say that some fear Gods anger for their communion with Hereticks c. You know all such feare is only warrantable in the Church not in the world It is not so with the Nations now as with the Iews Now if we have not communion with them in the Nation we must goe out of the world But What communion is this you meane that will bring Gods anger You have your liberty to withdraw to separate as they from you If it be nationall or civill communion then you pluck up the tares before the time of harvest But whom you esteem Hereticks they it may be think they have as good Scriptures to esteem you so and this is Heretick for Hereticks interpretation against interpretation And since there is only a sufficiency but no infallibility now as before since there is no Apostles for interpretation as at first for Revelation why do we thus cry out Hereticks Hereticks the Sword the Sword Let me put one Question here Suppose those you call Hereticks were of equall number to you and both of you equally numbred with Magistrates and both of you equally principled for persecution and both equally calling out for the Magistrates Sword What clashing of swords would there be What edge against edge What authority against authority What power against power What bloudy doings What sad workings What confusion would there be This is an Image of your Incorporation of your two powers that you so plead for in this kind If we were equally principled and armed for persecution as you are and acted by your spirit Ah what a Kingdome would here be You say Some have aversenesse to Heresie in a true zeale to God These are but generall notions of Heresie Every thing is not Heresie that is called so And for true zeal to God in that aversenesse all this is granted if that be Heresie indeed But how if it be such a zeal as Paul saith the â—ewes had a zeal but not according to knowledge how if it be such a zeal to God as crucified the Sonne of God and such a zeal there hath been we know The Iews did much in zeal to Truth even against Truth But you close up with that of the Lords and Commons in an Ordinance c. I am afraid these are such proofs as you intend most in your Presbytery to make your supplement to Scripture from Authority and so to make us beleeve what you cannot perswade us to beleeve and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture But I hope that honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture against us then from their Authority But I have not to doe here with answering Ordinances of Parliament I contend not but submit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords sake nor doth my Argument lie against any thing of theirs but yours I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties but Iudges in out difference I appeal to the Parliament as to Caesar nor in it a faire proofe of Truth to draw the Magistrates Sword out of the Scabbard You say You wonder considering who was ingaged I would so undervalue them to compare them with Papists and Prelates I did consider who was ingaged a Parliament c. and had I not highly valued
will have a body sutable pure Not only is the visible body of Christ thus pure but every truth of Christ bears the Image of Christ every truth of his hath something of himself in it who is Truth it self I am the Truth saith Christ every beam of light is light every truth is a sparkle of truth it self Thus we may judge of truth by what of Christ we see in it They who break a Chrystall may see their face in every peâ—â—e and parcell so in every thing of Christ there is an Image of Christ either of his purity or holinesse or love or humility or meeknesse c. The Presbyteriall Government and the Worlds of the same equall Dominion VVHat kind of Church-government is that which will set up it selfe with the Civill and State-government even co-ordinate with it if not to the ruling and tutoring of it which hath as large a Dominion as the other which is as full as ample as high and as supream which no lesse territorie then a Kingdome will serve then a whole Nation Muâ—â— Christs Government be just as large as the worlds which Government affects Dominion which brings in whole Nations under the Scepter of it This or that little one in the Scripture which sits downe sometimes in a house to the Church in thy house sometimes in a City as Corinth and over a few there to the Church in Corinth in a Countrey not over a Countrey to the seven Churches in Asia not to the Church of Asia or the Church Asia a Church a fourth part of the world Sure if this Nationall and comprehensive Church were the patern we should walk by Why did not Christ begin first at Kings and Princes and so bring Nations and Kingdomes and make Churches of them But we see no such thing he begins lower at the base and weake and foolish and few and raises up his Kingdome from the bottome of the world and not from the top or pinacle of Princes Kingdomes and Nations The Nationall and Congregationall Church-covenant both lawfull or both unlawfull HOw can a Church-covenant be unlawfull if the Nationall-covenant be warrantable and why doe any plead against that who are for this A Covenant is condemned in the Congregationall Church and yet commended in the Nationall Now How can a Church-covenant be both true and false Is a great Church-covenant lawfull and a little one unlawfull a Nationall Church-covenant warrantable and a Congregationall unwarrantable But Covenantâ— in their nature were a dispensation more of the Olâ— Testamenâ— strain a Nationall Church had a Covenant to gather them up into their Nationall way of worship and were under the Laws of an externall Pedagogâ—â— and now the spirituall dispensation being come even the Gospell of Iesus Christ there is a fulnesse of spirit let out upon the Saints and people of God which gather them up more closely spiritually and cordally then the power of any former dispeâ—sation could the very Covenant of God himself of which the former were typicall and Propheticall comes in nakedly upon the spirits of his and drawes them in and is a law upon their inward parts sweetly compelling in the consciences with power and yet not with force with compulsion and yet with consent and surely where this Covenant of God hath its kindly and spirituall operation there would need no such externall supplement as before but because of the hardnesse of our hearts it is thus from the beginning it was not so the spirit tyed up thousands together then Let States then have any prudentiall security any designe of sound wisdome to consoraâ—e people together but let the Church only be gathered up by a Law of a more glorious and transcendent nature by the pure Covenant of God himselâ— with the souls of his We receive and give out Truth by parts MEn are to be judged and followed according to the degrees of light they receive and if any have some light that light is not to be used as an advantage to all their other darknesse as if all their darknesse might passe under that one beame of light The light rises upon the Prophets as the Sun upon the Earth it is dawning and morning and noon with them Thus came the Gospell Iohn preached Repentance Iesus Christ Faith and Repentance Iohn came with Water Christ with the Spirit and first in Parables and after in power the Apostles they knew first Christ for Messiah then that he should suffer and die and rise againe and then the Kingdome of God Luther knew first that Indulgences were unwarrantable and after that Popery was Antichristianism and Rome was Babylon and works could not justifie and after conscience was not to be compelled in spirituals Thus we grow from Faith to Faith to the fulnesse of stature in Christ to a perfect man in him growing with the increasings of God The Kingdome of God is like a little leven like a grain of mustard seed So as while we see but things in degrees we are neither to be too sudenly admired by others nor our selves All Covenanters are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State VVHosoever hath Covenanted is bound to assist the Publike to his utmost in every Condition and Calling and Place and Way accordingly from naturall abilities to his relations from one relation to another even to all to that of Christian and Spirituall his Prayers Counsell Notions with Countributions of all sorts Civill Naturall Temporall Spirituall He is bound by Covenant to discover malignity in State in Church enemies to God as well as man endeavours to any thing of Popery and Prelacy under what visage habit form of Words of Doctrine Discipline be it Presbytery or whatever if repugnant to the Word of God as we are perswaded in conscience who have personally Covenanted The breathings and speakings of the Spirit are not to be quenched Every season is for the Lords service in season and out of season Watchman watchman what of the night The Spirit is powred upon sons and daughters Synods of men are not infallible Not because more men more of the Spirit The liberty of the subject is that of soule as well as body and that of soul more deare precious glorious The liberty wherein Christ hath made us free Be not ye then the servants of men in the things of God We are to try Truth and so receive it in its Degrees ENquiries for Truth ought to be according to Scripture-rule and that rule lights us on to the triall of all things and proving spirits and judging between the precious and the vile The water that is mingled with the wien the Tares with the Wheat will require sound tryall lest we make but an exchange of one Error for another The Apostles waited for the Spirit the Bereans searched the Word we are bidden to trie and prove The Prophecies of seducers false Christs Antichrist with lying wonders are as reall cautions given out by the Spirit The examples of former Ages Luther
Smectymnuus to the high Honorable Court of Parliament in the yeare 1641 by reason of the Prelates Tyranny Now awakened and presented to themselves in the behalfe of their Non-conforming Brethren WITH A BEAM of LIGHT discovering a way to Peace ALSO SOME QUAERES For the better understanding of Mr. Edwards last Book called GANGRENA With a PARALLEL between the PRELACY and PRESBYTERY By JOHN SALTMARSH Preacher of the Gospell Mat. 18. 32 33. I forgave thee all that debt because thou desiredst me Shouldst no thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant even as I had pity on thee LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the black spread-Eagle at the West end of Pauls 1646. TO THE HONOVRABLE THE Knights Citizens Burgesses of the House of COMMONS In PARLIAMENT Honourable I Here present you with some Notions of the Brethren of the Presbyterian Way which were presented to your HOUSE some foure or five yeares since wherein they doe in much strength and piety as it seems to me open the way and secrets of Spirituall Tyranny and Conscience-yoaks there is some occasion now of reminding the Brethren of these because the straine of their preaching and printing seemes to have forgotten these principles Spirituall Yoâ—ks and Burdens being taken off from us through the hand of God upon ye the memory of them seems to be gone off too from some some have forgotten that they were strangers in the Land of Egypt the Lord hath seemed to forgive the formerly Nonconforming Brethren all their debt because they desired him And now the Question is Whether they should have compassion on their fellow servants as he had pity on them The Controversie now before ye is of all your Faithfull ones and therefore it cals for the tenderst judgement Fathers may better beat servants then children out of doores the one sort â—â— I mistake not contend that they may rule with ye the othâ—â—â—â—â—t they may be ruled by ye in the things of your owne Kingdome and in that of the Kingdome of God that Iesus Christ may rule both ye and them how just how spirituall this latter plea is will appeare from the choycest Reasonings of some in reputation with ye which I have awakened The things I present ye I would not presume to make too positive because I would not conclude a wisdome of your latitude under any notion of mine though I see private men take too much liberty in that way towards ye though it is your indulgence not to know it I here present ye things only to be considered to be quaered in the behalf of truth and the advancement of your State to which I am covenanted and I am the bolder and freer having sold something that I had for that pearle for which we are bidden to sell all I shall adde some Considerations here to the rest 1. Consider whether under Popery the mystery of the Nationall Priesthood was not rather held up by the power of Princes and States then States themselves by such a way of power and whether the mystery of the Nationall Ministery be not rather held up by the power of States now then the States themselves in such a way of power and then whether all the Pretences and Consequences to drawâ— in States and Kingdomes for the Churches interest if clearly discussed be not rather a way of Antichristian mystery then of zeale to Religion or the power of Magistracy 2. Consider whether in the Kingdome of Jesus Christ any other Scepter should be lifted up then that golden one of his own and whether if there be a Kingdom of God if Iesus Christ be the Lawgiver and the Spirit of of Christ the interpreter of those Laws and this Kingdom of God within the throne of that King of Kings and Lord of Lords the Lord Iesus any other power should rule any other Scepter any other Laws or any other sit down in that Throne which is only the Throne of the Son of David whose Throne is for ever the Scepter of whose Kingdom is an everlasting Scepter 3. Consider whether there be not an Heathenish or Gentilish world and an Antichristian world or a world of many called Christians and beleevers in Christ and yet a Church of Christ which is neither of these and if so whether is all this Kingdom of England that Church of Christ or not rather much of it that part of the Antichristian world over which one part of the mystery of iniquity hath sat long and is yet upon it And if so then is there not room in England both for Presbyteriall Churches and Believers of other waies to live in that part of this Kingdom which is the world and not that Church And if so ye may be rich in people rich in peace rich in the praises of the people of God Honourable go on to do worthy things for our Nation as worthy things have been done by you and may ye be as the wings of a Dove covered with Silver and her feathers with yellow Gold So praies Your humble faithfull Servant IOHN SALTMARSH To the Reverend Divines of the Presbyteriall way Brethren THese are the sig hings of some of your own spirits under Episcopacy under the Tyranny of that government O how acute and sensible were your Iudgements and Consciences then of the usurpation dominion imposed Formes when you were the sufferers but now that your Brethren are become the Non-conformists to you as you were Non conformists to the Prelates and you the imposers and your Brethren the sufferers I find times and conditions are forgotten and yoakes are called for which neither we nor our fathers were able to beare I see by your printings and preachings the working of new dispositions in you and Symptomes of something like Dominion and Persecution surely Brethren your crying out thus for the civill power to help you or all is undon is a sign you trust not to the Gospel strength nor truth of youâ— way but to the arme of flesh Methinks of late your Sun is turning into darknesse and blacknesse over us and your Moon into bloud is it possible that yoakes burthens whips prisons banishments can be soon forgotten Can Saints like naturall men see their faces in a glasse and so soon forget what manner of men they were I have reasoned with you in your own arguments I hope your own arguments may find accesse to your spirits when ours cannot men are sooner perswaded by their own reason then anothers O that the same sounding of bowels may be heard in you to your Brethren that ye wished to heare in others who were once your task-masters What Joseph said in his affliction we shall say to you Think on us I pray you when it shâ—ll be well with you and shew kindnesse for it may be as Mordecai said ye are come to the Kingdom for such a time as this if not enlargement and deliverance shall arise from another place IOHN SALTMARSH GROANES FOR LIBERTY 1. Divisions ought to
of Dominion ruling conventing excommunicating in each Objection But how will you do to satisfie Parliament Presbyterials and other dissenting Brethren Answ Not that I will determine but propound for the Parliament It appeares that the State-conscience according to the present corrupt constitution both of Ministers and Elders and People of this Kingdom cannot yeeld a Divine Right to a Presbytery so constituted and therefore they are not to be forced to the judgement of the present Assembly no more then the Assembly do desire to be forced themselves to their judgment and therefore each is to enjoy their liberty in the Lord as they are perswaded The State is to enjoy their liberty in their judgement of no Divine Right in this present Presbytery The Assembly may enjoy theirs in their judgement of a pretended Divine Right or Presbytery in all Congregations which will conscienciously practice with them not seeking to make the State subservient to them by their Civill power which no Scripture practice will warrant from any Eldership or Presbytery there and thus the French Churches enjoy the Presbytery at this day having no Civill power to help them And the other dissenting Brethren may enjoy their Divine Right too being as fully perswaded from Scripture of theirs as the other are of theirs and equally live under the same liberty and not trouble the State with any thing but their prayers and obedience Objection But the Brethren of the Assembly expect the Parliament should joyne with their results Answ I know not why they should expect that for they are no more infallibly gifted then their Brethren that they should expect more from the State then they Their Ministery is as questionable Their Interests are more in the world then the Interests of the first Presbyters were as in their maintenance by Tythes and in their power of Classicall Provinciall Nationall the Kingdom being thus corrupted and in that subserviency and power of compulsion they demand of the Magistrate and Princes of the world And why our dissenting Brethren may not with as much justice honor conscience desire the State to settle such a Gospell-order as they beleeve to be true the other being no more enabled to demand of the State any power for imposing their conclusions true by a power of the States own giving by Ordinance And whether the State seeing no infallibility of spirit in any of all sides since what the Truth which they hold bring in its own evidence and demonstration before them ought to be pressed as bound to one by any Interest more then to another save that of Truth I leave to be considered and then what reason the Brethren have thus to presse their supposed Divine Right I desire to know Objection Whether is this to settle things according to Covenant Answ Yea The Covenant binds us to Vniformity but then that clause According to the Word of God doth restraine the Vniformity to the light which each Kingdom sees by according to that Word and therefore our Brethren of Scotland see Presbytery in one degree the Hollanders in another and the French in another and at this time England in another and yet all should be one in that clause of the Covenant viz. to defend each other in their degrees of Reformation against the common enemy We Scotland and Scotland us and what a comely thing it is for Brethren to dwell together in Unity though they cannot in Uniformity The Last Petition of the Assembly for Divine Right in their present Presbytery with Inferences upon it Petition THat the Provisions of Commissioners to judge the scandals not numerated appeares to our consciences to be so contrary to that way of Government which Christ hath appointed in his Church Inference Whence we may inferre that the Assembly do suppose the Parliament and Commissioners to be far below the Ministers and Eldership in spirituall gifts and discerning which I suppose cannot be well presumed considering the Assembly and Eldership now is not annointed with that pure spirit and gifts as the first were but with habits of Arts and Sciences and with some measure of the Spirit which many both of the Parliament and Commissioners both may be and are enabled with as well as they and whether is not this to set up the old distinstion of Layty and Clergy and to set the present Eldership and Presbytery upon a higher Forme then the Magistrate seeing the gifts are not so distinct as at first why should the Offices be so distinct Petition In that it giveth a power to judge of the fitnesse of Persons Inference Whence we may inferre that they presume themselves to be that very Ministery and Eldership of Jesus Christ though both their Ministery is by Bishops and their Elders by a prudentiall constitution and election at this present and may not the Magistrate who is unquestionably the power of God Rom. 13. appointed to be Judge of good and evill more lawfully judg oâ— sins and Gospell-Rules then they who are a questionable Ministery and Eldership in this present Presbytery Petition And to be so differing from all examples of the best Reformed Churches and such a reall kinderance to the bringing the Churches of God in the three Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity and in all those respects so disagreeable to our Covenant Inference Whence we may inferre that if all do not beleeve as one beleeve it is pretended that all are in breach of Covenant and thus the Covenant is made a snare by interpretation and principles of spirituall compulsion implyed in the Covenant contrary to the Spirits wisdom who both allowes and advises the severall statures and measures of light the weak and strong and whether the Communion by unity is not a glorious supplement to the Rent of Vniformity that of Vnity being in the Spirit that of Vniformity in the Letter and why should our Brethren thus bring down the State and Kingdom more to other Reformed Kingdoms or not rather raise up the other Reformed Kingdoms to this and if any thing be revealed more to this Kingdom that hath sit by this long time why should not the other hold their peace and beleeving Kingdomes as Beleevers walke one with another so far as they have attained and wherein they have not the Lord shall reveale even this unto them not but that this Kingdome ought to forme it selfe into any Communion with the rest so far as their Communion excels and so the other into Communion with this so far as this excels and both so farre to one another as they are perswaded not compelled which are no Arguments for Faith but Formality Petition Do humbly pray that the severall Elderships may be sufficiently enabled Inference Whence we may inferre that their whole endeavour is to raise up the Interest of the Eldership and Presbytery into a distinct sole and Independent body and power which how conformable and obedient and consistent it may prove to and with the power of the State
will peaceably joyne with them in the Kingdom under that Power and not to trouble the Magistrate further and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right as the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way theirs and all alike under the same Civill Power and neither of them with it and all other Reformed Kingdomes in unity of the Spirit and love to one another Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences 1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office but the Magistrate may rule with them THe Eldership and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations but now as the anointing is not so nor is the Office pure peculiar and distinct the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spirituall as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery and may therfore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations as they unlesse their Churches Officers and Gifts were more Christs then they are 2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices Gifts c. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin then they 3. Vniformity in the Word of God is the Vniformity of Churchâ—â— They that presse the Covenant for Vniformity so penally as they do make it a snare of compulsion not in the Word of it but in their Interpretation of that Word unity in the Spirit makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Vniformity in Laws Ecclesiasticall then in Civill but may walke together as Beleevers so far as they have attained that clause according to the Word of God makes roome for the severall statures of Christ and measures of light in the Covenant and they that agree in that are truly Vniforme for it is the Vniformity with the Word not with one another but so far as we are all alike in that Word which is the very Vniformity of the Kingdom of Christ 4. The Magistrate as they now make him is Ecclesiasticall as well as they They that ascribe a Power to any to compleat and actuate them in their Ministration do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so informe and compleat them so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery doth imply a Presbyteriall and Ecclesiasticall Power in that State and if so the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church as any ruling Officer they have 5. The present Presbytery in mystery both over and under the Magistrate They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery tell me in what spheare or where rule they for over it they are not Commissioners they say are contrary to the Word and under it they are not for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto â—â— so as they who are so much in the dark with their Government do with Magistracy they know not what and would place it they know not where The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate then the Erastian and how the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in Gospell-order but a Kingdom of Beleevers in generall and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to Gospell-order and till both this Nationall Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ and those very Officers of Christ the Magistrate may as lawfully yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer Minister or Elder amongst them for Magistrates have the whole Kingdome of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Beleevers not a Church they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds or lesse his own so as the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church Ministers and Elders nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church Ministery and Eldership for all Scripture proofes of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership according to Truth not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved â—â—ue no Scripture either alleadged for Presbytery belongs to them nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate as from the Church of Christ Conclusion These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature which is of high concernment in the things of Gospell-order as any point now abroad for surely it is not a Vniversity a Cambridge or Oxford a Pulpii and Blacke gowne or Cloake makes one a true Minister of Iesus Christ though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificiall unction for that true one of the Spirit and the Ministery hath beene so cloathed with Art and Habit that if the Apostles should live again and preach in that plainnesse they came they would be as despised for we wonder after the Wise the Scribe and the Disputer of this World FINIS An End of ONE CONTROVERSIE BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOKE called LIGHT FOR SMOKE One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER Which he writ lately against me In which the Summe of his last Booke which relates to the most materiall Passages in it is gathered up and replied to By Iohn Saltmarsh not revolted as Master Ley saith from a Pastorall Calling but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops and now a Preacher of the Gospell Isa 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darknesse for light Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing and some another for the Assembly was confused and the most part knew not wherfore they were come together Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this he dismissed the Assembly LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speake fairely in his owne just defence and the Law of Grace requiring him to speake zealously in the defence of Truth I thinke it equall that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed April 15. 1646. John Bachiler The LETTER
will not heare me speak But you would have the best assurance from tryall but so far I say not as you say is that the best Spirituall assurance that is from our own Spirits in part or from Gods alone from our own reasoning or his speaking Can a Spouse argue better the love of her friend from his Tokens and Bracelets or from his owne word and Letter and Seale One of the three that beare witnesse on Earth is the Spirit and in whom after ye believe ye were sealed with that Spirit of promise Can any Inference or Consequence drawn from Faith or Love or Repentance or Obedience in us so assure us as the breathing of Christ himself sealing assuring perswading convincing satisfying I will hear what God the Lord will say for he will speak peace to his Servants A Saint had rather hear that voice then all its own Inferences and Arguments which though they bring something to perswade yet they perswade not so answerably till the voyce speake from that excellent glory To your eighth That I clog men with conditions of receiving as well as you of repenting c. I answer I preach not Receiving as a condition as you do Repenting I Preach Christ the Power and Life and Spirit that both stands and knocks and yet opens the doore to himselfe I Preach not Receiving as a gift or condition given or begun for Christ but Christ working all in the Soul and the Soul working up to Christ by a power from himselfe And if you would Preach Repentance and Obedience as no other preceding or previous dispositions we should agree better in the Pulpit then we do in the Presse To your ninth That the sum of my Divinity is That men may be saved whither they Repent or no or beleeve or no. I answer Should I say to you The sum of your Divinity is this That Faith and Repentance and Obedience are helps with Christ and conditions with Christ to mans Salvation and that Salvation in not free but conditionall the Covenant of Grace is as it were a Covenant of Workes Should I do well in this to upbraib you and those of your way Say not then that I thinke men may be saved that never repent nor believe Why do you thus set up and counterfeit opinions and then engrave our Names upon them Could not I piece up your Book so if I would be unfaithfull as make ye appeare as great an Hereticke as any whom you thus fancy because I preach not Repentance or Faith as you do because I make all these as gifts from Gods love in Christ not as gifts to procure us God or his love or Christ because I make all these the fruits of the Spirit given to such whom Christ hath suffered for to such whom God hath chosen in him because I Preach Faith and Repentance and Obedience in that full Revelation in which they are left as in the New Testament and not in that scaâ—tling of Doctrine as they are meerly and barely revealed in the History of the Gospel or Acts of the Apostles onely where the Doctrine is not so much revealed as the Practise and the Story in Summaries because we Preach thus therefore we are all Antinomians Hereticks men not worthy to live Brethren must ye forbid us to Preach because we follow not with you because we Preach not the Law as ye do nor Faith as ye do nor Repentance as ye do therefore do we not Preach them at all We Preach them all as we are perswaded the New Testament and Spirit will warrant us and as we may make Christ to be the power of all and fulnesse of all as we may exalt him whom God hath exalted at his own right hand And we wish that ye and all that heare us were both almost and altogether as we are except in reproaches CONCLVSION FRom the 29 Page to the last all your Replyes amount not to any thing of substance but of quarrelsome and humorous exceptions and I shall I hope redeem my time better then in making a businesse of things that will neither edify the Writer nor the Reader There are some things you might had you pleased raised up into some Spirituall discourse as that of Works and Signs for assurance c. But you say of your self how becoming such a one as you I leave that you were like an Old Steed which neighs and prances but is past service so as I must take this of your age and infirmity as a fuller Answer or Supplement to what you faile in against me There are two or three things more observable then the rest 1. That you tax me for saying That the markes in Johns Epistles and James are delivered rather as marks for others then our selves to know us by and I affirme it againe not as you say excluding that other of our selves but as I said rather markes for others though for both in their degrees and kindes of manifestation So in James 2. 24. where he saith By Workes a man is Justified not by Faith So in Vers 18. 21. All which set forth Works a signe to others rather then our selves So in 1 John 3. 14. Hereby know we we are passed from death to life because we love the Brethren compared with Ver. 17. 18. shewes That it is a love working abroad in manifestation to the Brethren and yet I exclude not any evidence which the fruits of the Spirit carry in them as in my Book which yet you alleadge to that purpose after you have been quarrelling so long with it pulling my Treatise in pieces to make your selfe worke and then binde it up againe after your owne fashion For your Story of your Lady and your fallacy That she might as well conclude her selfe damned because she was a sinner as one that Christ would save because she was a sinner And durst you thus sport with a poor wounded spirit that perhaps could see little but sin in her selfe to conclude upen Know you not that Christ came to call sinners to save sinners And durst you make use of your Logick to cast such a mist upon the promises to sinners Suppose one should aske you how you gather up your assurance now you are an old man how would you account to us Would you say such a mâ—asure of Faith so much obedience so much love to the Brethren so much Zeale Prayer Repentance and all of unquestionable evidence But if we should go further and question you concerning your failings when you writ in the behalfe of Cards and Dice of the Common-Prayer-Book if we should aske ye of your luxuriarcy in quotations in your Books and Sermons whether all be out of pure zeale no selfishnesse no vain-glory Whether all your Love was without bitternesse to your Brethren of a diverse judgement whom you call Antinomian c. Whether you preached and obeyed all out of love to Iesus Christ and not seeking your own things not making a gaine of
That some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods Ordinances of God and this Assembly so I know some of our Brethren for the Presbytery hold Infant-Baptism unlawfull and Antichristian and hath better defended it then any yet whom I have read hath answered it And for this Assembly to be an Ordinance of God I thought that had been but an Ordinance of Parliament and stood by that power by which they were called by at first Yet deny not but that consultations for holy ends about the things of God are lawfull by the Word To the Tenth That Presbyteries because not infallibly gifted are of no Divine Right and so concludes against all Presbyteries and Ordinances Yea against all your Presbyteries to be of Divine Right as the first But our question is rather whether the first was any such Presbytery as you now affirme and for ought I see you can no more prove the truth of the Presbytery then in the sense you take it then your Presbytery to be one with it one only in Divine Right not in Divine power or gifts And how are these things sutable To the Eleventh That I contradict the pure Government I plead for by pleading for yours as prudentiall It were true indeed if I pleaded it in mine own behalfe I plead it occasionally for them who will needs have what the State cannot in conscience allow them and yet will not practice any other but what the State shall give them and so trouble both the State and their own consciences and would cast a snare upon both Brethren if ye will needs have the State to allow ye your Presbytery Why are ye not content with what they can allow ye If ye will have a Divine Right which they cannot allow ye why do ye trouble them and sit down under a bondage of your own making But how justly is this yoke come upon you who would have brought a worse upon your Brethren To the Twelfth That the first Presbyters and Apostles c. were not infallible as in divers practices What is this to the truth and gifts they taught and taught by They failed as men but not as Apostles They erred as they were Peter and Paul but not as moved by the Holy Ghost Take heed by opening the Apostles failings to justifie your own you speake not worse Blasphemy then you name in me and make that glorious Word of Scripture questionable which they preached like the words that your selves preach from that Scripture To the Thirteenth That to say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word is Blasphemy What Blasphemy is it to say that the same Word which they writ and preached the same Spirit spake in them and spake the same truth in them which writ in them And is it so with any of your Presbyters Therefore till the same Spirit speak truth in them so as in the first Presbyters will they challenge the same right the same power Will they have a Divine Right acted by a spirit lesse Divine then the Right To the Fourteenth That the Presbyterians in France Scotland and the Netherlands do not embroyle Kingdoms There is good reason in France they cannot if they would I wish you would walke under the Magistrate as they do and as your dissenting Brethren here and not make him serve you And in the Netherlands do you as they do there and leave your Brethren to the like liberty that is in that State and they will not grudge ye your Presbytery amongst your selves For Scotland they are Brethren I wish no worse to then Truth and Peace and power above their Ministers To that of excommunicating kingdoms being a bugbear You do well to say so till ye be established but you that dare so capitulate with States whom ye are called to advise in things onely propounded what more may be expected upon all your principles I leave to be judged To the Fifteenth That they aske not of the State a power but a liberty to exercise that power Well and will ye trouble the State no further Will ye not intreat them to punish such a one and such a one whom ye judge an Hereticke and a Schismaticke to fine and imprison when you have done with them at Excommunication May the State be quiet if they say to ye go all that are so perswaded as you are and worship and practise as your dissenting brethren and other Saints and trouble not us to provide for your Tythes and Rule for you in things of your own cognizance over Consciences But you would onely have liberty from them your power is of Christ But you cannot so cleare things as you thinke If your power and liberty respectively to your selves and the Magistrate be so distinct why have ye mingled them and confounded them all this while Why make ye the truth and power ye have from Christ wait so at Parliament-doores as Master Case said If the powers on earth will not do for Christ as you would make the people beleeve Why do not ye your selves more for Christ Is it better to obey God or man Thus the more ye would single your selves in your power and right from the Magistrate the more your practice makes an argument against ye To the Sixteenth That I should say 〈◊〉 sound Church Church-officers shall excommunicate and judge of offences and in an unsound the Magistrate and the Inference there I answer I spake and writ so according to your principles not to my owne Nor can I see how you can chalenge such a one entire and simple Discipline exclusively to the Magistrate upon no more true pure and Scripture-principles then your present Presbytery is And I conceive the powers on earth or in the world have to do in every Government that is more of the world then of Christ For if ye exclude them from a part in that Government which is partly prudential and of man you exclude them from off part of their owne Kingdome which is theirs by inheritance and of more Divine Right then I conceive yours to be And whereas you would make us beleeve you stand onely in a pure Gospel strength and power and desire no more of the Magistrate but liberty can this be so in truth when all is esteemed invalid and nothing if the Magistrates power doth not actuate the Ministers power I know you may distinguish of powers Scholastically and Spheres of working for those powers and so tell the Magistrate and us he doth but act in his Sphere when he acts in yours and indeed acts yours making it to be stronger then it is in it selfe But is not his Civil power that which puts life as you think into all your Presbytery Yet he must think he doth but as a Magistrate still as if so be that the Magistrate were made to be rods in the hands of the Church and Swords to be drawn by them and Iron whips at their girdles We are not now as Aarois and Moset we are not