Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	baptism_n	ghost_n	holy_a	8,479	5	5.8461	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56660	A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist	Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.	1668 (1668)	Wing P798; ESTC R41393	117,976	250

the Demonstration of the Spirit and of power C. True there is no compare between these But hath your Minister that Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power N. C. Yes sure if ever any man had C. That 's good news for then we shall see that which before we only believed Hath he the gifts of the Holy Gost Can he speak with Tongues and Prophesie and work Miracles and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts N. C. What do you mean C. I mean that which the Apostle Saint Paul meant who had this Demonstration of the Sipirit and of Power which he gave the world to convince them that Jesus was risen from the dead and was made Lord of all whom they were therefore bound to obey N. C. But I mean something else C. Pray tell me what that is Only let me desire you not to use words without the sense belonging to them and to intreat your Minister that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may speak in the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power for no body now can hope to do it N. C. I mean that he is spiritually enlightned to search the deep things of the Spirit of God which the natural man cannot discern C. I wonder at you that you should not discern the Apostle there speaks of the Holy Ghost i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it in them which ●ssured them of those things that no meer natural Reason could prove I doubt your Minister is not spiritually enlightned because he doth not instruct you better in the Scriptures N. C. Scriptures He never says 〈…〉 but he quotes a place of Scripture for it 〈…〉 Sermons are nothing else whereas you 〈…〉 but Rational Discourses C. I remember I have heard a wise man say that one may talk nothing but Scripture and ye● speak never a wise word And I verily believe it for it is not the Word of God when we mistake its sense as you commonly do N. C. Doth yours do any better C. Yes he seems to me to make it his business to let us into the meaning of the holy Book And he backs his Reason not with phrases snatch'd from thence but with such place as manifestly speak the same sense that he doth N. C. I have heard him sometimes endeavou● to open the Scripture but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way but onely Rationally C. My good Neighbour consider what yo● say Do you think that these two words Spiritua● and Rational are opposed the one to the other If they be then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and absurdly N. C. No pardon me there I do not think those two are opposite but Carnal Reason is opposite to the Spirit C. To speak properly you should say that Carnal Reason is opposite to Spiritual Reason That is a Reason that is guided by Fleshly lusts ●s opposite to that which is guided by the Gospel of Christ Ns. C. I say as I said before it is opposite to the Spirit C. You must either mean as I do or else that it is opposite to the Gospel which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture But pray tell me how shall we understand the Gospel by our Reason or by something else Ns C. By the Spirit C. What must we have an immediate Revelation to make us understand its sense or must we study and consider and lay things together and so come to know its meaning N. C. Yes we must give our minds to it and then the Spirit enlightens us C. That is it guides us to reason and discourse and judge aright Is not that it you mean N. C. No I mean it shines into our minds with its light C. These are phrases which I would have you explain if you can My Question is this Doth the Spirit shew as any new thing which is not the conclusion of the Reasonings and Discourses in our minds about the Sense of Scripture N. C. I cannot say it doth C. Then you confess that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in distinction from the other viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghost which the Apostles had N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual C. That is you are prejudiced or else you phansie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual N.C. No not so but the manner of understanding the things of God methinks should be other than you conceive C. Truly if you have any other manner of understanding besides this and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost I conclude you take the sudden and many times pretty suggestions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above N.C. Now you have hit on something that I would have said The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind C. How know you that Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghost N.C. No I dare not say so C. Then you examine it and consider whether it be rational and coherent or no. N.C. Yes C. Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatsoever you think of us we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds and represents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reasonings which is as much as to say that it lets us see the reasonableness and aptness of such a Sense for instance of the Divine Writings as we discerned not before N.C. Well I am glad to hear you speak so much of the Spirit C. You might hear ten times as much if you would but frequent our Assemblies For there we are constantly taught that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jesus Christ is the Spirit i.e. the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apostles N.C. You mix so much of Reason with what you say that I am afraid you are not in the right C. You should rather conclude the contrary and not believe any thing but what you have a good reason for N.C. Say you so How then shall I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Can Reason tell me this C. I am sorry to see you so ill instructed If you had continued to hear our Minister he would have made you understand before this time that though our reason could not find out that Truth yet God hath given us the highest reason to believe it And this I told you is the Spirit the Spirit in Christ and in his Apostles N.C. Pray explain your meaning for I understand not these new Notions C. The Holy Ghost I mean descended on our Saviour at his Baptism with a voice from Heaven saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased This is one reason we have to believe on him Then he wrought miracles by the power of this Spirit and

Covenant of saving those Sinners who would obediently believe on his Son For this was more than he was bound to grant and this Believing and Obedience can deserve nothing of him it being a Duty to believe what he reveals to do what he enjoyns and besides he gives us the means of Faith and Helps to well-doing N.C. How can it be Free if we do any thing for it C. I have told you that we cannot do any thing for to deserve it and what we do he inables us to perform it And therefore it is free because when we have done all yet he is no way tied to give us any thing but only upon the account of his own most gracious Promise N.C. You grant then his Promise is from meer Grace C. No body doubts of it that I know of But this Grace is not so fond as to make the Promise to any one that is confident it belongs to him even whilst he remains in a state of Sin Such a Favour God had to Sinners as freely and without any disposition in them to send his Son and his Holy Spirit but unless they become like to his Son they are taught by him not to presume he will give all the Blessings the Gospel promises for they are made only to the faithful N.C. God will make them so C. But according to your Opinions that is a thing which they need not consider when they apply the Promises of Salvation to themselves For you say they must have respect to absolute promises which you know have nothing to do with any Qualification for this Favour In pursuance of which Doctrines you perswade your selves that Assurance of God's Love is not to be grounded upon any Grace wrought in us but only upon the Testimony of the Spirit perswading us that our Persons are beloved and that the Promises are made to us N.C. This is Antinomianism C. May be so and your Ministers may be Antinomians and yet not know it N.C. Call them what you please I am resolved to follow them for I think you will allow them to be the most experimental preachers in the world C. Stil you pester me with Phrases which I doubt you understand no more than I. N.C. Is not the word plain enough C. It is if you mean by an experimental Preacher a man that hath tried himself those ways which he earnestly beseeches others to walk in but then it will not serve your purpose for you cannot deny but we have men that lead as strict and holy lives as any of yours can do N C. I mean one that preaches his own Experiences in the ways of God C You do not well know what you mean For this is either the same that I now told you or else it may signifie no more than one that preaches his own Fancie N. C. Now it is hard to know what you mean C. I mean that tells you stories of God's Withdrawings and Desertings and again of his Shinings in and Sealings c N. C And do you call these Fancies C. Commonly they are no more For I observe well meaning people fall into these melancholick despairing Fits are recovered again into greater Chearfulness and Assurance without any reason at all but only by a fanciful application of some Scripture or other which belongs not at all to their condition and yet casts them down or raises them up N. C. You are mistaken they have Reason C. If there be any that can be thought a sufficient ground of God's withdrawing himself sure it must be some provoking Sin which they have committed And yet I see that they who cannot charge themselvs with any voluntary act of Sin nor with any such Omission neither fall into these fancies so I must still call them of being forsaken by God All the occasion that ever I could find for such black thoughts is but some such thing as this that they have not such Inlargments as they were wont or cannot go to Duty with that delight which formerly they took in it which your Ministers ought to teach them are no Reasons but only melancholick Conceits And if these be the things you call Experiences there are none of us but understand them as well as you finding the same Dulness and Heaviness in our selves Only we are taught not to talk or complain of it but to do our duty notwithstanding as well as we are able and we shall find it will not last alway N. C. You make too light of these things C. I hope not But you lay too great weight upon them and make these such Marks of a Gracious Soul that it helps to put good but weak people into these Humors and I doubt makes them lay hold on all occasions to fancy themselves deserted N. C. Pray speak no more of these matters for I see you are ignorant in them as you are in all the great things of God which are Foolishness to the world Why do you smile They are the Apostle's words 1 Cor. 1.23 C. I know it But I smile to see how you prove that which you deny viz. that Fancy governs you N. C. How do I prove it C. By this application of the Apostle's words according to their Sound and not their Sense N. C. Why what is their Sense think you C. That to a mere Gentile it seemed a foolish thing to believe that a Crucified person was made Christ that is Lord and King of the world The Jews stumbled at this and would not receive him for the Messiah or King of Israel who shamefully hung upon a Cross and the Gentile thought this a ridiculous perswasion which none but Idiots would receive But then he tells you what Gentiles and Jews these were viz. such as were meerly natural and did not allow the testimony of the Spirit whereby the Apostles proved this Doctrine For they who were convinced that the Holy Ghost was in the Apostles and judged not by mere humane Reason but Heavenly testimonies made no scruple to believe that this crucified Jesus was made Lord of all and herein they acknowledged the great Power and Wisdom of God to be made apparent N. C. You give the oddest interpretations of Scripture that ever were heard of C. Every thing seems odd to you which is cross to your Fancy But examine the Scriptures seriously and you will find the interpretations which I have learnt to be plain and even N C I do read them continually C. I believe you and that you apply every thing as you fancy it will fit these times N. C. I apply it as I see those do who notwithstanding all that you have said I take to be the most experimental Preachers For that which they have seen with theer eyes which they have look ed on and which their hands have handled of the word of life that declare they unto us as S. John speaks 1 Ep. 1. 1. Pray be more serious and do not laugh while we speak of these

seem to me to endeavour by these questions to put your selves and the people into a great passion and a kind of agony but they do not spring I persuade my self nor arise of themselves from any ardency of Devotion But there is another thing that offends me more than all this that having stirr'd up some confused passions in your selves by this and other such like means you proceed to such an high degree of confidence in this bold way of Arguing with God that you quite forget who you are speaking to For some have told him that he little knew how his enemies insulted or some such thing and that if he did but know how desirous they were of such a thing or how much they would prize it he would not deny them N. C. Pray Sir hold your peace or I will stop my cars You abuse good men C. I tell you only what is credibly reported and if it be not so I shall be very glad But I must adde that they take such a liberty of saying any thing to God which they would say to one another that I conceive it not unlikely that some might fall into those unseemly others perhaps will call them blasphemous expressions Are not you of the same mind N. C. I cannot deny but that they use great familiarity with God C. Familiarity do you call it would the world had never known it For it is such a one as hath bred in mens minds a contempt of God and Religion It hath taught every body to let that Member loose which ought to be always bridled especially in God's presence They vent all their foolish Opinions to him they tell him News and inform him how things go abroad which they have received many times upon a false report which hath brought such a scandal upon Religion that it cannot but grieve any good man's heart to think on 't N. C. It is such as you that have brought Religion into contempt and not we C. How so I pray you N. C. By despising the Spirit C. It is false We reverence that Spirit which was in the Apostles and if we could see such an one again none would entertain it with greater gladness We acknowledge also the power of the Spirit of God still in the hearts of men especially of those who are good and we bless God continually for it But that which we deny is this That either you or we are able as I told you to pray by the Spirit N. C. Do you not then despise the Spirit C. No we suppose there is no such thing as Prayer by the Spirit if there were we should reverence it N. C. Would you would tell me your meaning C. I mean a prayer immediately dictated by the Holy Ghost as some were in the Apostles day N. C. I understand you not C. Such a prayer in which by the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost a man conceives those things which he speaks to God Or in plainer terms I mean that the Spirit of God doth not now suggest to any of us when we pray the very matter and words which we utter If you pretend to this then those prayers are as much the Word of God as any of David's Psalms or as any part of the Bible and being written from your mouths may become Canonical Scripture N. C. But we do not pretend to this C. I wish then you would not talk as if you did I am sure your discourses of Prayer are commonly such that one would think you took your selves to be full of the Holy Ghost And this I must tell you hath made a great many scorn Religion when they saw the Spirit of God intitled to such pitiful stuff as they heard many vent with the greatest confidence N. C. This is their own fault C. And yours too N. C. I cannot believe that our Prayers ever had any such effect C. But I can and I will tell you how You constantly tell us that the Bishops by prescribing a Form limit and stint the Spirit By which Spirit you mean the Spirit of God not your own From whence it follows that you think or would have the world think that the Spirit of God speaks in you when you pray and that you utter its mind and words Now many men hearing you pray so inconsiderately and wildly uttering most absurd if not impious things yet with a mighty zeal and confidence have been tempted to think that whatsoever is said of the Spirit even in the Apostles days might possibly be no more than such an Extravagance and Fury as this N. C. A most sensless conceit C. I think so too But you have given occasion to such conceits in those that are inclined to Infidelity N. C. I hope not For we onely mean when we say we pray by the Spirit that the Holy Ghost assists us C. With what Doth it furnish you with words N. C. No with devout and ardent affections C. This indeed you should mean but your brags of the Spirit import more N. C. Pray Sir use no such reproachful words we boast of nothing C. Well pardon me that word But if you do not brag yet you say that you can pray by the Spirit and we cannot at least do not In which you ascribe something more to your selves than is to be found among us N. C. Yes C. Then you mean more by praying by the Spirit than being inspir'd with devout Affections For those you cannot deny we may have as well as you and unless you will take upon you to search the heart you must grant we feel them since we protest that we do From whence I conclude whatsoever you say that your men would have you believe that it is the Spirit which speaks in them and by them when they pray Which is a thing that reproaches not only them but the very Spirit of God and as I said before hath at least confirm'd men in their Atheistical or unbelieving inclinations N. C. Well I will not dispute this with you any longer But tell me seriously do you think that men could pray with that readiness and elocution and lenght if they were not mightily assisted by the Spirit of God C. Yes indeed do I. Their own spirits will serve them for this purpose if they be but indued with good phansies and a sufficient measure of boldness For it is a great vertue I assure you in this case not to be modest though we reckon it a singular vertue to be so N. C. I cannot think it possible C. Why Neighbour you may take my word for this There are many of our men could out-do you in this Gift as you call it of Prayer if they would give themselves the liberty and yet you would not think them inspir'd I am sure I mean they are able to speak so readily and fluently so earnestly and passionately of all manner of things and to continue this strain so long and that without humming or hawing that if you did

not know them perhaps you would admire them above most of your own N. C. Then I should conclude they had the Gift of Prayer but suppress it C. So they have but it is both in you and us onely a Natural gift or acquir'd by Exercise and Practise and Imitation N. C. Now you speak prophanely C. I speak the sense of the soberest of your own Party as I verily believe who would say the same if they durst but deal plainly with you And as simple as I am I dare undertake to justifie the truth of what I say against any of them if they have the face to contradict it N. C. I see you leave the Spirit of God nothing to do in our Prayers C. Would you would see how you forget your self Did I not tell you what the Spirit of Prayer was how that God bestows it upon us when he gives us a sense of himself and of our needs and stirs up in us holy desires and passionate longings after his Righteousness which we should express in such words as are becoming that Majesty with whom we have to do And this is the reason that we take care to chuse our words and not leave them to extemporary invention especially in the publick Service of God N. C. Do you think they will ever want Words whose hearts are full of Desires or can great Affections ever fail to furnish us with plenty of Language C. Yes that they may For all experience tells us that very great and high Affections are too big for Words and make a man at a stand for want of Expressions which no man sure will think a seemly thing in a publick Congregation And the passions of Admiration and Reverence of God restrain a mans forwardness of speaking to him and make him like a few words best which he is not then in a fit case to invent A● for lesser Affections and superficial Heats I grant they seldom let a man want words if he have tolerable Parts and make him speak more readily than he would do at another time yet they are not able ever to furnish him with those that are fit proper and decent Which methinks should make you not quarrel with a sober form of words at least in our publick Devotions N. C. Would you could perswade me that a Form of words is lawful to be used it would go a great way to perswade me to come to your Church C. Strange that you should be so inapprehensive It is so lawful to use a Form of words that I have shewn you it is in a sort necessary that is we can have no security that the Service of God will always be performed well without one N.C. I confess I do not yet apprehend you C. Observe then I say the best of men though their hearts be full of good desires may from some cause or other want such words as are fit and proper to express their meaning In this case they must hack in an unseemly manner or make a stop or use such words as are too rude and slovenly or speak broken and imperfect language or at the best such as is too hard and obscure and unintelligible by the Vulgar None of which things are to be permitted in the publick Worship which ought to be performed with the greatest solemnity and gravity And therefore to prevent that Undecency and secure the Service of God from all that is unhandsome you must consent to a prescribed Form of words wherein men shall address their humble and hearty Desires to him For though some men at some times may pray well enough yet other men and the same men at other times may be very confused and full of Tautologies and it 's well if they endeavour not to supply these defects with rude Clamours brutish Noises and a deal of the Holy Scriptures wofully misapplied Beside how can you persuade any strangers to be of our Church or to hold any Communion with us if they do not know how we worship God And how should they know that unless you can produce something which by a general consent is own'd for his Service This no doubt is one reason why all Churches in the world have had their publick Forms of Prayer that they may let every body know how God is served by them and why the best men in Reformed Churches have wished those happy days might come of amity and friendship that they might by a Common Counsel and Consent form a certain Liturgy which might be as a Symbol and Bond of Concord among them all And truly I cannot advise how your Ministers can justifie themselves in separating now from all the Reformed Churches as well as ours with whom they covenanted to maintain an Uniformity not onely in Doctrine and Discipline but Worship also To me they seem to live in an open breach of one branch of that Covenant of which they are so tender For they do not endeavour in their place and calling to reform according to the example of those Churches N. C. What should they reform now they have no power C. Themselves and their Congregations which they take the boldness to gather who ought to serve God according to the Covenant after the example of the best Reformed Churches all of which have an Order and Form of Prayer and never imagin'd that those written Forms did bind up and stint the Spirit This is a peculiar phansie of your own who have no Form at all in any of your Conventicles or Meetings though it is in the power of your Ministers to have one as well as to hold such Meetings and though they be bound by their League and Covenant to do their endeavor to imitate those that have Nay I much question whether they use the Lord's Prayer They that do I believe have the least company such is the prejudice which they contrary to their Covenant have sowen in peoples minds against Forms of Prayer even that of the Lord's Which thing considered it makes me astonish'd at your impudence in pretending such niceness of Conscience and fear to break your Covenant when you break it every time you meet together without some Form of Divine Service N. C. They onely covenanted to reform this Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Churches which they cannot do C. Onely do you say Is that a less thing then to reform a particular Congregation Methinks they should think themselves obliged to do what they can when they cannot do what they would and to do that in a part which they cannot do in the whole that is bring in some Form of Prayer into your Churches for so no doubt you esteem them N. C. I do not think they can if they would C. Why N.C. Because most of us think Forms unlawfull C. That 's their fault who either taught you to believe so heretofore or do not instruct you now to believe otherwise Though it were a very casie thing for them to do