time without circumcising the children Theophilus If they had bene circumcised it shoulde not haue bene written that Iosua caused them to bee circamcised after y they were entred into the land of Chanaan But by that example those holy men do shew vnto vs how we ought to vnderstand the matter of the exterior sacraments For notwithstanding that it is written of the circumcision This is mine alliaunce with your generations by an euerlasting ordinaunce and that the bay of the giuing and receiuing hath bene limitted yet neuerthelesse they haue well vnderstanded that that sacrament was a publike ceremony for to witnesse the allyaunce of God betwóene that people and in the Iewish Churche as the Pascal Lambe and their other sacraments Wherfore when they had iuste and lawfull lette and that they had not the time and place and other things requisit to theyr ceremonies they haue made it no great coÌ„science to omit them did not thinke that therby their saluation should be in daunger for that they dyd knowe that it came not thorow their negligence and dispising of god As they had then the females saued thorow fayth and the spiritual and interior circumcision without carnal and exterior circumcision euen so did they y males knowing y they were coÌ„prised in y aliance of God by the which of his pure grace mercie he graunteth saluatioÌ„ vnto his elect y which he giueth through his holie spirite as it pleaseth him aswel with out sacraments as with sacraments as it appeareth in Cornelius those which were in his house which haue receiued y holie Ghost before they were baptised of S. Peter But yet they neuerthelesse did not dispise the exteriour â— outward baptisme although y they were alreadie baptised by y holy Ghost For y man should be verie proud which would dispise y baptisme ordeyned by Iesus Christ sith y he himselfe which is y holy of y holyest who alone can sanctifie the sinners baptise with the holy Ghost with fire did not dispise the same of S. Iohn Baptist But if the elect aswel little as great which haue ben among y Gentiles Panims haue bene saued without exteriour circumcision as it appeareth in y Niniuites Nahaman Iob Nabuchodonosor other like which haue had knowledg of God haue had their recourse vnto his mercie wherefore shal y same priuiledge be denyed vnto those that be hath not only elected through his eternall election beloÌ„ging vnto all his seruants but also he hath giuen vnto them y witnesse by the exteriour sacraments if they had such lettes excuses as reasonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could haue For why were not the elect which were among y Panims accused in being not circumcised but bicause that they were not in the land of Israel nor in the visible church among y people which he had chosen vnto whom he coÌ„maunded such things If they had bene among the Israelites and that they might haue communicated with them it had bene requisite to be circumâ—â—sed and to vse the same sacraments But when they were in a place in which they had not that exteriour mymâ—re nor could not haue it the Lorde was contented with the meanes that it pleased him to giue vnto thé Now if such necessitie happened vnto the Israelites I doubt not but that the obliâ—ation of the lawe hath ceased when the causes for which it was giuen are ceased and the spirituall circumcision of the heart suffiecth for it selfe for the exterior the spirituall sacrifices for the material For wheÌ„ they were in y wildernes that they must be readie euery day to remoue their host houshold stuffe euery houre when God commaunded them they did well Iudge y God woulde not y they should be murtherers of their young children whom they could not circumcise but y they would be very sick in daunger of drath if they had not had time place to looke well vnto them as we may presume by the Sichemytes who were so sicke after their circumcision y they could not defende themselues against y two sonnes of Iacob And therfore Moyses hath well considered y the circumcision was made for man not man for y circumcision as he writeth of y sabboth And also y the people were not in place where they might haue their church garnished bewtified as it ought to be Then if y Iewes which had such expresse commaundement had verie wel such dispensation exception shall we put the Christians their young children in worse conditioÌ„ then y Iewes I cannot marueil too much of y question which y Theologians made to wit whether we ought to accoÌ„pt take an Infant to be baptised which for want of water should be cast into a well in pronouncing the sacramentall words which apperteine to the substauÌ„ce forme of the sacrament Upon which many Canonists Theologians answered y he was said y the same hath ben some times done Although y there are other of diuerse opinions which do not take such an Infant for to be baptised Hillar If I were y Iudge in y cause I would condemne to death as an homicide him y should so cast away kil y infant Theophilus We may wel know by such questions theological resolutions of what spirit the doctrine which thou mainteinest Euseb proceedeth y which putteth such necessitie in the exterior baptisme that those which doe vpholde and followe it are constrayned euen to murther the Infauntes or at the least they are in doubt and perplexitie eyther to kill them or drowne them after that sort or to suffer theÌ„ to die doubting that they are lost and reiected of god I am much abashed how God is become more cruell in this time of grace and mercy towards the children of the Christians after the manifestation of Iesus Christ his sonne then he hath bene towards the children of the Iewes before his comming Eusebius What is hée that saith that God is more cruell towards the children of the Christiane then towards the children of the Iewes Theophilus Thou and those which doe follow the doctrine which thou vpholdest mayntainest It is most true that you doe not speake it openly but your doctrine importeth no lesse For what rigor should God doe against the little Infants of the Christians if for want of being wâ—tte with a little water they were depriued eternally from the Ioyes of Paradise I haue alredy sufficiently proued that the children of the Iewes were not bound vnto suche necessitie although that the commaundement of the circumcision giueth an expresse terme the which is not in the baptisme wherein then ought the children of the Christians to be more culpable then those of the Iewes If it hath pleased god to send vnto the mother any aduersitie or sicknesse whiche was the cause that shée hath brought foorth hir child before hir ful
diuers interpretacions the which I will recyâ—â— some to the ende that thou shouldest not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which haue expounded it Or that I am more arrogant then all men and that I doe attribute more to my sence and iudgdement then to any other If I define rashlye of a thinge the which all the Expositours haue founde it so obscure and harde that many among them haue bene constrayned to confesse that they cannot vnderstande it Then I will touch the diuers expositions which are more sufferable Afterwardes I will signifie vnto you that which I thinke to be most proper There are some which doe not vnderstand that Saint Peter speaketh héere but of the lyuing vnto whom Iesus Christ hath preached the gospell aswell in his owne proper person as by his Prophets and Apostles which haue all spoken by his spirite Wherefore one may well say that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto theÌ„ sith that it was not they that did speake but Iesus Christ who by his holy spirite did speake in them Those heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie and doe vnderstande by the spirits which were in prison the dead vnto whom it is sayd in the chapter following that the Gospell was preached saying that saint Peter by that seconde place expoundeth the first Now by these dead vnto whom hath bene preached they vnderstand not the dead but doe take that word by a Metaphore vnderstanding by the dead the sinners which are dead thorâ—w sinne the which he hath called before the spirits which were in prison bicause that the soule which is dead thorow sinne is holden by the same as a prisoner which is in bondes and fetters in the stockes and in prison Those which doe expounde it after that manner notwithstanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words yet neuerthelesse they doe a lytâ—le differ touching that spirite by the which Iesus Christ went and preached vnto the spirits which were in prison For some doe expound it for the manifestation of Iesus Christ which hath bene before his comming Others for that which hath followed his comming These heere doe vnderstand by the spirite the holy Ghost which Iesus Christ sent and gaue vnto his â—posâ—les by the which he hath preached the Gospel to the Iewes and â—entiles which before were rebellious and disobedient vnto the worde of God. Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and disobedient spirits deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of sinne For although that Iesus Christ ascended into heauen and hath taken his body from vs yet neuerthelesse he is alwaies among vs by the vertue of his spirite by the which he speaketh in his Apostles Ministers and Euangelycall Pastors and preacheth and admonisheth alwayes the sinners and toucheth their heart and conducteth and leadeth their spirits by his for to make them enter into his Church for to saue the elect in the same as those which were saued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this exposition contrary to the Analogie of the faith and the sence of the Scriptures But yet neuerthelesse it séemeth to some to be a lyttle allegorised and vyolated and to stray a lyttle too far front the Apostolycal simplycitie Although that it be tollerable and Christian lyke Others doe vnderstande by the spirite of Christ his eternall vertue by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde as he is at this present the Sauiour by the water as he doth now by the baptisme And therefore they doe vnderstand that he is gone by his spirit by his diuine vertue by his word thorow out the world as he passed thorow out Aegipt declaring his power among the Aegyptians sauing the Israelites Asmuch hath hée done in the time of the floude and doth yet at this day For he declareth his Iudgement vnto the wicked hath drowned them in the floude euen as now he declareth it vnto all to the ende that his seruaunts may be saued in the Arke of the Churche and the others drowned by the Iudgement of god Therefore is Noe called the herauld of righteousnesse for to declare that by the same the spirite of Iesus Christ declareth vnto men the righteousnes and Iudgement of God as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes vnto those which doe rebell agaynst him and refuse peace And the word which Saint Peter vsed when he sayd y Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirits doth not signifie onely to preach but also to publish a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld And that worde herauld the which Saint Peter vsed speaking of Noe is taken of the very same of which he vseth saying that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirites And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them spirits they thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections beeing possessed with euill spirits And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written God did sée y all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen vnto euill And vppon that which Saint Paul speaking of the power which is giuen vnto him by the ministring of the Gospell sayth that it is for to beat downe euery high thing which exalteth it selfe agaynst God and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and spirites of men to the obedtence of Christ delyuering them from the subiection of the wicked spirites which doe holde captiâ—e the spirites and vnderstanding of the reprobate They doe vnderstand then by the spirites which were in prison those which were in the spirituall prison or whose spirits were deteyned in captiuitie and prison by the wicked spirits They haue yet regard vnto that that the scripture calleth those which perished by the floude the sonnes of God which did see the daughters of men and to that which is there written that the Lord did strike and destroy euery soule and taketh from the middes of them euery spirite and that he hath sayd in threatning them that he will take from them his spirite For that cause they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call such men spirits bicause that whilest that their spirits did sleepe and were detemed by the wicked spirits they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the sloude and the spirit was taken from them as to him which was strangled and câ—oked in the water They also haue regarde to that that that worde which Saint Peter hath vsed which we doe interprete prison doth also signifie the watche and warde which is kept in the night Insomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vnto the parable of Iesus Christ which admonisheth euery one to watch as the faithfull seruant looking for his master who knoweth not what houre hée will come whether it be in the seconde thirde or fourth watch of the night and for a
Christ 21â— Masses for the lyttle Infants 259. Masse of Requiem for the Saints 255 Mans reason the foundation of purgatory 222. Men that are dead Gods to the Idolaters 282. Mercury 269. Ministers of Sacraments 241. Moonkes dead to the world 274. Mortui non mordent 274. N. Necessitie 228. New Letanie 255. New transfiguration of Sathan 258. O. Obiection 2â—3 222. 232. Obiection of the necessitie of baptisme 237. Office of a Lieuetenaunt 27â— Offices Ecclesiasticall 241. The onely death of Iesus Christ satisfieth 220. One onely God. 280. Opinion of Lombard 227 P. Pagatory 276. Paynes of the Limbe 224 Payne for satisfaction 220. Payne and fault 251. Paynes of purgatory 224. Pardons to whom they profit 285. Pelagians 239. Poena damni poena sensus 224. Philip king of Fraunce 280. Pickelockes 286. Place of purgatory 279 Place of Saint Luke ca. 12. 287. Place of the Actes ca. 2. 289. Place of Saint Mathew ca 12. declâ—â—ed 271. Place of the Apoc. ca. 5. 292. Place of the 1. Corinthians ca. 15. 290. Place of the Philippians ca. 2. 291. Place of Saint Peter 1. ca. 3. 293. Place of Thoby contrary to the priests 262 Place of Saint Mathew ca. 5. expounded 267. Place of the second booke of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for purgatory 219. Playes and games of the Panims 283 Pope God and more then God. 278 Pope Clement the sixt cyted by Fryer walter being dead 286. Pope Lieuetenaunt of Saint Peter 274 Pope more puissant then Christ 252. Pope hath more power then the saints 278. Pope Iudge of the quick and the dead 284. Power of the keies and indulgences for the dead 274. Power of the keyes 274. Power of the keyes lymitted in this worlde 284 Power to giue pardons lymitted 285. Power of the dead vppon the Popes 286. Prayse giuen to God for all creatures 292. Prayers for the resurrection 252 Prayers for the Saints that be in Paradise 255 Prayer for the deade how that may be done 253 Prayer for the resurrection of the bodye and the comming of Christ 254. Prayers of the diuells 291. Predication to the dead 273. 293. 296. â—he Priests or woemen Priests 242. Priesthoode of the dead 276. Prison 297. Prisoners 29â— Prochet Archbishop of Genes 280. Propositions equipolents 271. The latter Prophets 217. Prouerbe common 211. 267 Priuiledge 220. Punishment vppon those that doe reiect the Gospell 289. Punishment of the elect with the reproreprobate 188. Punishment of sinnes 222. Purgatory the nurse of sinnes 222 Purgatory by what reason it is builded 219. Purgatory before the coÌ„ming of Christ 219. Purgatory of purses 276. Purgatory for the body 258. Q. Question of the Infantes of the Hebrewes dead without circumcision 226. Question Theologicall 230. R. Rage of Pope Stephen against Formosus 281. Raymond 251. Rebellion and dispising the commaundements of God. 223 Reconciliation fraternall 269. Regeneration 234. Regula 267. Renumeration of good deedes 222. Reward of foolish builders 26â— Requâ—escant in pace in Purgatory 293. De Roma the defiler of the faith 18â— S. Sacrifice of Christ eternall 24â— Saluation without exterior Sacraments 229. Saluation without Baptisme 237. Saluation lyâ—â— to the elements 233 Saluation without visible Baptisme 213. Saluation by piruiledge 220. Sara and Agar 256. Saued by fire 265. Saul a persecutor made an Apostle 299. See God before and behinde 279. Seigniory of Iesus Christ 291 Sence and meaning of the words of S. Peter 1. epist. Cap. 3. 296. Sence of S. Mat. words Cap. 5. 270. Sence of the words of S. Luc. Cap. 11. 270. Sence of the words of Iesus Christ vpon the 5. Cap of Saint Mat. 269. Sence of the parable 270. Sentence of Saint Augustine touching the children that are dead without baptisme 238. Sergeants of Purgatory 268. Sergius and Formosus 281 Shed out ones bread and wine vpon the graues of the iust 262 Sichimites 230 Signe to iudge the true and false Prophets 258. Signes and figures for the thinges signed and figured 240 Silla and Marius 281. Sillogisme 178 Signification of Limbe 225. Simâ—n Peter 276 Sinne against the holy Ghost 272 Sinne to death 256. Sinne originall 2â—9 Sextus 283. Skirmishers 257. Solution of Baptisme 237. Sâ—â—e of the Scripture of the auncient Doctors touching the Sacramets 236 Stella Clericorum 281. Speaking of dumbe and incorporal creatures 292 Spirite of Bacchus 213. Spirites prisoners 295 Spirite that preached to the dead what â—â— it is 294 Supper giuen to Infantes by Ciprian and Origene 234. Suburbes of hell and of Paradise 226. T. Theology inferior and metaphisical 257 Those which haue not beleeued in this world 298. Three sortes of baptisme 237 Treasure of the Church and the dispensation of the same 284 Treasure of the Church 264. Three hells 224 Torments of the reprobate agrauated 247. Transfer and giue kingdomes 280. True Gedeon 287. Two wayes 225 V. Vaineglory 257. Valentinian 233. Valew of twelue thousand â—ragmes 213 Vertue of Iesus Christ come to the dead 196. Vertue of the buls and pardons 283 Vse of Allegories 298. W. Warre of the Geants 256. Wells 297 Wells of Saint Patricke 212. Wells of fire and brimstone 293. What knowledge of God is necessary to saluation 279 298 Who doe boow the knee in hell 291. Witnesse of God. 218. Witnesse of conscience that he is a God. 248. Word of God Iudge and guide 212. Workes of hipocrites 223. Worme of the conscience 249. FINIS TABVLAE MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EN VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East dwelling by Paules wharfe 1579. A prouerbe Luc. 16. l. 20. The cause of y temptation to the elect Heb. 4. d. 15. The fall of Peter Mat. 26. g. 25. Luc 22. l. 60 The errour of Saul Act. 7. 8. 9 The darknesse of the vvorld Exo. 10. l. 22. The Aegyptians at this present time Aegypt and Babilon One onely veritie The meanes for to finde out the truth Prouerbe The foole counsaileth the vvise Sape etiam est holitor valde opportuna locutus The lavve of the Babilonians for the diseased Herodo It. 1. Bxo. 23. 〈◊〉 Latine bookes All languages good to God. Luc. 4. d. 23. The gift of tongues Act 2. 2. 1. French bookes Anacharsis Amos. 7. d. 13. Dauid Esay The Apostolicall eloquence and humaine â—loquÌ„ence Curious men of speaches Manglers of Latine These vvhich doe auoide the reading of dinine bookes Prouerbe Velut Canis Nilo All Artes and disciplines the handmaides of holy bookes Doctrinall of Alexander Eloquence vvithout the feare of God. Cleero and Gariline Eschines and Demostlienes The true science and eloquence Esa. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. Iohn 17. 23 Out of east of the bread of life Curious readers of foolish bookes The svveet smellings vnto hogs Vile and filthy bookes Fooles bables Good books despised forbidden The Christian all to all men 1. Cot. 9. c. 20. Holy deceyts Booke discouering the abuses The office of fooles and scoffers Vile and 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 An idle vvord Mat. 12.
PETRVS VIRETVS THE Christian disputations BY MASTER PETER VIRET Deuided into three partes Dialogue wise Set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Ashe Math. vij d. 21. Not euery one that saith vnto me Lorde Lorde shall enter into the kingdome of Heauen but he that doth my fathers will which is in heauen MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East 1579. To the most Reuerent Father in God EDMVND by the permission of God Archbishop of Caunterbury Primate and Metrapolitan of England Iohn Brooke wisheth in this life prosperitie and eternall felicitie in Christ our Sauiour REading for mine owne priuate exercise and studies the worthie worke of Master Peter Viret entituled The Christian disputations right Reuerent Father the sweete entrie into the same with such pleasant allurementes of comfortable matter so drewe and tolled me forwade as vnnethes I coulde cease vntill I had cleane discoursed and gone thorowe the whole worke Which hauing once accomplished and due consideration therevppon had according to my slender capacitie I thought I coulde not bestowe my time in any thing more worthy gratefull acceptaunce then in publyshing and setting foorth the same that others might bee made pertakers of my comfortable delights and delightfull comforts takeÌ„ in reading hereoff Not meaning like a chorle alone to deuoure such a rich banket furnished with so greate a number of Iunkets and delicate dishes but to inuite thervnto according to the intent of mine Author a company worthy such a feast which being first prepared and dressed very cunningly after the French fashion I haue for the great good will and zeale â—owe vnto my natiue Countrie and for their better taste translated and set foorth the same after the English manner wherein my small vnlearned skill desirous of sure supportacion and good defence craueth your grace as chiefe to giue me credite and countenaunce against the byting sting of Zoilous persons hereticall Papists whose stomacks may in no wise digest or abide the good wholesome dyet in this feast prepared whose vnsauorie tastes as I seeke not to content so I feare not to offende Trusting your grace will accept this my bolde enterprise as proceeding of heartie good will towards you and earnest loue borne vnto my countrie preferring my zealous intent and the Godlinesse of the matter vnto the vnworthinesse and slender skill shewed in the translation As I shall dayly pray vnto Almightie God to gouerne and direct your grace in all your affaires by his holy spirite remayning euer Your graces bounden during life Iohn Brooke Iohn Caluyn vnto the Readers THE loue of God our Father and the grace of our Lorde Iesus Christ be giuen to you and multiplyed from day to day thorowe the communion of the holy Ghost There is an auncient Poet which saith that he which delyteth and profiteth altogether in his writings hath gained the price and fauour towardes all men The same is spoken bicause of the diuersitie of natures It is very true that the onely doctrine wherein we knowe it to be good and profitable ought to suffice vs for to incitate and prouoke vs to reade willingly a booke to giue and bestowe thereon all our studie to loue and set by it and finally to take pleasure in it But there are a great many and well neere the most parte which will be a greate deale better pleased that one should teach theÌ„ after a gentle pleasant fashion then otherwise In such sort that as in recreating themselues they may profite receiue instruction liuen then as those which occupie themselues to make bookes of pastime vaine and friuolous which cause the world to reade them are to bee vituperated and despised although they haue no corruption in them So on the other side those which haue the grace so to teach that they doe both delight and profite the Readers thorowe their pleasant stile are double to be praysed And in very deede that is a vertue a gift which is not in al men Yea often times the wisest cannot atteine vnto it And which is more do make themselues to be laughed at in desning that which is not giuen vnto them For a man which desireth to vse mery conceits and iests ought to beware of two vices The one is that he do nothing of compulsion or laugh ouer much as there are a great many which haue cold laughters the which do seeme as though they were pulled out of their throat by force The other is not to vse baudy silthy talk the which is called in Latine scurrilitas in our language pleasant iestes But to keepe the meane that is to know how to speak effectually and with a good grace so for to recreate that there be nothing spoken foolishly at all aduentures or vncomely which is no common vertue I doe speake this by reason of these present Dialogues out of which a man may so gather good instruction and yet notwithstanding he shall haue occasion to laugh For the matter of it selfe is very pleasant And is set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Our brother and companion in the worke of the Lord Iesus Peter Viret who is the Author hath by nature the vertue which I saide to be requisite in that man which will medle himselfe therein It is vertue true that as in all other workes he giueth himselfe vnto a better studie and of greater waight So in these Dialogues his principall intent is not to delight the eares And in verie deede that shoulde be but a small labour and a paine euill be stowed of a man of such witte and knowledge Furthermore besides the giftes that he hath of God he is called vnto a more higher calling But forasmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreate off sheweth that he teacheth by order of pastime and merrie iestes he pretendeth notwithstanding the right doctrine as the true marke to shoote at mingling with the same some merrie conceites as a companion therewith all Yea in such sort that this booke is a suffient witnes that be hath a singuler dextentie to doe it yea euen as much as he will himselfe that is to say as much as is needefull or conuenient I doe knowe that it is a daungerous thing and that no man ought at the first sight to allowe a booke But I feare not to haue any rebuke of good men of such as are of sounde Iudgement to haue commended the reading of that booke as a booke in which the time shal be wel bestowed I neede not to bring witnes nor to speake among those which know the man This onely knowledge will suffice for to asâ—ure them that they cannot sayâ—e to stay themselues vpon it But bicause that it may
Ringing of belles 68 To ring for the time 75 Rule of the diuine seruice for the dead 63 Ruth and Booz 97 Ruth and Noeâ—â— 100. S. Diuers sacrafices the dead for diuers causes 10â— Sacrafice of Iesus Christ 48 Salt in the baptisute 35. Salt of wisedome â—5 Salt of the worde of God. 35. Salt of the Priests 35. Salting and seasoning of fooles 35 The salutation of the souldier vnto the holy fathers 39 Sampson and Dauid 94. The efficacie strength of Sathan 106 Satiffacion for sinnes 8â— Saturne and Rea. 59. All sauors are good so that money doe come 41. The sclpunder of the Pharises 18. Shepheards feeding themselues â—1 Scotlande and Irelande 27. Sellyng of offices 43. Sellying of the buriall 54. Senna therib 94. Sennacherib Romaine 94. Sepulcher of Iesus Christ 53. Sepulchers infatiable 52. White or paynted sepulchers 52. To sing after the dead 87. Singing of Masses 41. Signification and definition of an heritiche 60. Signification of belles 71. 74. Signification of hell 17. Signification of the deepe lake 89. Signe of the crosse 102 Sillogismus in Darif 51 Simonse and Simoniackes 53. Sinnes of Princes 30. Sinnes of the simple people 30. Sinnes of Princes and Cyronts 29. Siticines 66. Soppe in the throate 51. A soule drawenfrom hell 90 A soule taken in a net 89. To what serueth the washings of soules 36. The spertell of the priests 35. The spertell of Iesus Christ 34. To sprinkle the sepulchers with water 37. The spirite the author of purgatory 29. Stella Clericorum 48. Stephen the sixth 88. Stlgmates 103. Stile of the holy Ghost 18 Stix 9â— The Philosophicall stone 55. Stiffocations 36 Supper 42. T. Tanners of mens skinnes 65. Tannefat of the Priests 64. Temple of God. 49. The cause of the temptacions of y elect 1. Tempus 31 The Poeticall Theologie 24 Thuringie 26. Three differeÌ„ces of sinnes the diuersitie of the payues 31 Tibicines 66 Time of Gregory 96 Time of pestilence 36 The tyrant of tyrants and the pillers of the vsurers 30 Torches and candells at the burialls 33. Torches at the funeralls 70. Troianus delyuered from hell 9â— Tree of lyfe 90. The true science and cloquence 7. Tribute of the brine and of y stewes 41 Tribute of victualls of proces 42 Tribute of get pence and whores 42. Tribute of Moriages 42. Tribute of players 42 The papistical tribute of victualls 42 Tribute of whoores 43 Tributaries of Priests 54. Trophonius denne 27. V. Vealegon arder 51. Valut Canis é Nylo Prouerve 6 The vertue of the truth 30. The vertue of the habite of S. Fraunces 105. Vespiliones 65 Voyatge of Saint Patrickes wells 26. Vino rogum ne respargito 38. Vse holy water at burialls 101 Vow of Herode 81 W. To be in the way 35. Waters of Aegypt 95. Water of tribulation 94. Holy water 34. Holy water vnprofitable 88. To watch the dead 104. The olde woemen that doe keepe the children that be borne dead 44 Weeping of the Crocodile 64. Whoredome 81. Widow askng counsayle of the bells 72. Canon witnesse 24. Too wise or ouer wise 13. Holy woode 75. Idle worde 9. What good workes God requireth for the dead 100 Good works don to the dead by Booz 100 Workes of mercy towards the dead 97. What workes doe follow the dead 85. What workes God requireth of vs and to what ende 83 Workes of Angells and the elect 84. Workes done for vs after we be dead 85 Z. Zazel or Azazel a Diuell 101. FINIS TABVLAE ¶ THE SECOND PART of the Christian disputations By Maister Peter Viret Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Asshe next Sandwich MATHEVV XV. A. IX ¶ In vaine they worship me teaching doctrines which are nothing but mens precepts MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East THE SVMME OF THE third Dialogue IN this thirde Dialogue by reason that Eusebius mainteineth and vpholdeth that the Prayers and Sussrages for the dead are of Gods ordinaunce and of the institution of the auneient Church it is intreated off very amply by Theophilus and Hillarius and shewed out pointe by pointe of what originall and beginning that did first begin by whom it was begun and hath bene augmented as well amonge the Panims as the Iewes and Christians And what hath bene the customes and ceremonies of the one the other as well in their mourning and sorrowing for the dead as in their Anniuersaries Feastes Obsequies for the dead And bicause that there is great conformitie betweene the feastes dedicated vnto the dead as well among the Panims as the papisticall Christians we will declare euidently by conferring the one with the other not onely the agreeing that these feastes haue togother but also that which is amongest many other ceremonyes ioyned with them and depending vpon them The which haue bene borrowed of the Panims by the papisticall Christians or at the least wife the imitation is so cleere and euident that there is none but that he may easely iudge that they proceeded all from one spirite For to manifest and declare then thys same the better and for to make it the playnelyer to bee seene we will declare pointe by pointe the conformityes which are betweene the one and the other touching the diuerse feastes and dayes dedicated vnto the deade and touching the forbiddinge of marriage at certeine times Afterwardes the conformitie of some feastes and Idols of the Panims and Papistes and the feast of the candels and diuers purisications obserued of the one part and of the other And the consecrations of Torches Waxe Waxcandles Salt holy Water Fire Asshes and many other suche diuers matters by the which euory one may easely iudge who hath ben the authour of the popish Ceremonies and what difference there is betweene the auncient Panim Rome and the Romish Church such as it is at this present We doe call this Dialogue Anniuersaries or yeares mindes bicause that it maketh mention of many Ceremonies which yearelye haue bene obserued among the superstitious and Idolaters about the dead as of the straunge Gods. ¶ Now for to enter in the matter Theophilus beginneth after this manner THE THIRD DIALOGVE which is called Anniuersaries or yeares mindes THeophilus I am very glad bicause that you are all come in so good time chiefly of Eusebius For I greatly feared that he was offended with our talke and dysputations that we had yesterday But as farre as I can perceiue not with standing that he be very much rooted in his olde opinions superstitions yet neuer thelsse I know that he differeth much from a heape of obstinate and wilfull fooles which haue no reason at all to defende their cause nor know howe to take any other weapons then opinions and obstinations for to fight against the truth neither know how to finde any other meane to vanquish it and to reuenge themselues thereoff then to hurt and wrong those which do
canon which was made But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians the which yet neuerthelesse the Papists themselues doe not allow no more then that which S. Cyprian Origene did which did distribute the supper vnto young children when their fathers and mothers brought them in their armes in comming to communicate the same And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade but also the cup. Now let vs thinke if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there what may chaunce afterwards For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and passion of Iesus Christ two hundreth and fiftie Those worthy men would not haue so much attributed vnto the Sacraments if they had not so much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Iesus Christ Of the like beginning came vp the error of those which estéemed thought the he which after that he was baptised hauing once receiued the supper could neuer be damned or at the least should be once delyuered from damnation bicause that Iesus Christ hath said I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen if anyman eate of this bread hée shall liue for euer They vrge vpon the letter said that Iesus Christ could not lye which hath promised the same Yet neuertheles Sainct Augustine rebuketh confuteth their errour Beholde y absurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter For whosoeuer wil according to the opinion which the Papistes haue of the Sacrament of the alter take litterally y which Iesus Christ said of eating of his flesh drinking his bloud there is no doubt but that we shall be constrayned to confesse that all those which haue once taken the supper are all saued and y all those which shall not once receiue it are all damned And so it shal be no lesse requisite to giue y supper vnto the young childrē to giue power vnto womē to giue it them then y baptisme they y would take the words those matters by y rigor And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged by the absurdities which should follow of thy expositiō the which do repugne against the grace of Iesus Christ as I haue declared vnto thee thou maist wel know that we must not vnderstand that place after that manner as thou doest expounde it For Iesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptisme nor of his institution But speaketh of the regeneration of man and sheweth what thing he must haue for to be a Christian to wit that it is necessary that he doe renounce forsake his first generation natiuitie which is altogether corrupted and cursed and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God and thorowe the incorruptible séede of his woorde insomuch that he is made a newe creature bearinge the Image of Iesus Christ the true celestiall Adam euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terrestriall Adam And therefore hath hée sayd Except a man be borne from aboue or a new be cannot sée the kingdome of god And after he expoundeth it by the other proposition following which signifieth none other thing then that which hée hath already sayd before For to be borne from aboue or to bée borne againe and to be borne of water and the holy Ghost are equiualent manners of speakings And the two propositions of Iesus Christ are equipolent y one to the other ther is none other difference sauing that y last is more ample and expoundeth the first For sith that our first natiuitie is carnal it must be y the second be spirituall Sith that the first man is of the earth earthly it is requisite that the second which is from heauen be heauenly and spirituall Now that regeneration transformation cannot be made but by the spirite of god For as it is written in that same place That which is borne of the flesh is flesh That that is borne of the spirit is spirit And therefore Iesus Christ willing to expoūd vnto Nicodemus y which he had said before Except y a man be borne frō aboue or a new he cannot see the kingdome of God Afterwardes saith which shall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghost bicause that the holy Ghost author of that regeneration is giuen from aboue which worketh a secōd natiuitie in vs which is celestiall and spirituall Eusebius But what néeded it to adde the water was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost Theophilus Wherefore hath Iohn Baptist sayd speaking of the ministry of Iesus Christ That he would baptise with the holye Ghoste and with fire what néeded it sith that he named the holy Ghost to adde vnto it the fire Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptisme of the fire as some do say that some Christians which are amongst y Indians Aethiopians Persians do who for that cause did vse the fire for baptisme of the fire Eusebius One may well perceiue there that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore and that he vnderstandeth no other thing by the fire then the holy Ghost of whom he hath already spokē the better to expound the nature of the same for as the fire is pure cleane and cannot suffer any spot or filth but purgeth maketh cleane illuminateth the consciences enflameth them to the loue of god For which cause he was sent vnto y Apostles in y liknes of tongues of fire the which S. Iohn did foresée forespeak off vsing such wordes Theophilus Thy exposition doth please me very much Wherefore if thou makest it no difficultie to take in that place the fire for the spirit of God for more ample expositiō of his nature properties wherfore oughtest thou to make a doubt to take y water in that place for that same signification séeing y agréeing y the water hath with the nature of y holy Ghost For there is no lesse reason but a great deale more appearance For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghost first the fire afterwards Wherfore it séemeth either that he vnderstandeth two thinges seperated or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere by a more darker thing Although that thy aunswere doth sufficiently satisfye that obiection But in that place Iesus Christ putteth y water first afterwards as if hée would expound his Metaphore and comparison and giue vnto it more greater brightnesse he declareth what he would signifie by that water to wit the holy Ghost vnto whom he giueth that name for many causes First bicause that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane and so necessary vnto mans life that it is impossible for men to lack it so is it of y water the which is also by nature cléere pure and
that are aliue And the first thing that we must haue when one dyeth are the torches to leade hym to hye graue And all the yeare after wée must haue Candels lighted vpon his Sepulcher and after to offer them vnto the Priestes Hillarius It is bicause they sée not Thomas Whom do you meane the Priests or those that bée dead Hillarius Both the one the other We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes haue lost their sight that they are in darkenesse as touching their body But neuerthelesse the shining and brightnesse of the torches serueth them to no pourpose I thincke also that the soule hath no neede of them For if it goe into Paradise it hath the Angels to carry it thether as the soule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams bosome For that hath light inough and the Angels also wyth the brightnesse of god Wherefore they haue not to doe wyth our light that cannot serue for the soule but for the body onely If the soule goe into hell there are guides inough for to bring it thether and it is not nowe necessary that we do giue light to it It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether Thomas But if it go into Purgatory for that it is so déep hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through those darke places Hillarius If that which they saye bée true there is fire inough without putting any more vnto it And if that fire bée not sufficient for them I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giue light there For if the Sunne beames and his brightnesse cannot enter and pearce through what may wée hope of our fire You may then vnderstande by these reasons that all these lights serue nothinge at all for the dead nor profite them neither for the body nor yet the soule It must be then that they doe profite the Priestes or els it is a lost labour But wherein can they serue for them For if they bee blinde and that the Sunne light helpeth them not no more shall they see by the illumination of the torches and candels If they doe see cléere inough they haue no néede for the cléerenesse of the Sunne ought to suffice them except they buryed them in the nyght as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe Thomas It must then bée that they are eyther madde out of their wyt or els that they would shew by the same that those that do such things are fooles and depriued of all vnderstanding Hillarius I thincke that they would do as Diogenes did who at noone dayes lighted a candle and did séeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne Thomas To what pourpose dyd hée the same Hillarius For to make men to vnderstande that they were beastes wythout reason and vnderstanding and that hée had much a doe to finde men that is to saye wyse men both of wit and iudgement although hée sought them with a lanterns Should hée not haue more occasion to doe the same nowe at this present time For to what ende do all those lights serue but for to declare that we are the successours of the Panims who after the same sort vsed torches and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead For we haue not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true seruauntes of God haue lighted candels for the dead Nor that they were euer in such superstition Also we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée sprinkle the graues of the dead is also taken of the immitation of the Panims Theophilus I doubt it not It is very true that the auncient people of God had certeine washings certeine baptismes for their purifications not that they did thinck that the filthinesse and vncleanenesse of the soule conscience could be washed made cleane by the water corruptible Elements For sith that the soule is a spirit it must haue a spirituall purgation agreeing to his nature and not corporall Thomas What profit then do they receiue of such ceremonies Theophilus They did the same for to testifie witnesse that they were sinners polluted vncleane and that they had need of a purgation the which they could not finde in themselues but muste séeke it of others Forasmuch then as they acknowledge themselues sinners and in makinge open confession by those exteriour and outwarde washings and do witnesse that the bloude of Iesus Christ was necessarie for them for the washinge awaye of their sins they pleased by that obedience and confession God and by the faith that they had in Iesus Christ â—figured by those ceremonies and sacramentes whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour They did truely communicate the bloud of Iesus which for them ought to haue bene shed as wée doe by the baptisme sauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead nor sprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water Hillarius Wée reade that the heathen Priestes vsed in their purgations the water of the sea with which they sprinckled that which they would purge Of which Proclus that noble Philosopher the Platonist yeldeth the reason saying that such water hath the propertie to purge bicause it is salt and that the salt hath in it some portion of the fire and holdeth somewhat of his Nature That same maketh mée to thincke that our Priestes for that same cause dyd put salte in their holy Water For before they dyd coniure the Water they dyd first coniure the salte and after dyd put it into the Water Thomas They dyd it after the example of Eliseus Theophilus But Eliseus dyd not cast the salt into the water for to coniure the Diuels there wyth but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane bicause that it was infected and poisoned so much y none could drincke of it And notwithstanding that Eliseus dyd put salte in it yet neuerthelesse the salt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculously As it is declared by the applications of the thinges which Iesus Christ vsed as in putting the spittle vpon the tongues of those that were dumme for to make them speake or vpon the eyes of the blinde for to make them see or wythin the eares of those that were deafe for to make them heare not bicause that hée coulde not dooe that wythout suche applications as hée hath very well declared in a great many other of his woorkes For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onely either by the hand as the leapers or by y gowne as y woman which was diseased with the issue of bloude and others without either séeing
by those words that the body of man and all that which is in the fleshe and the vices therein is giuen for meate to the Serpent whom they do call Azazell lord of the fleshe and the bloud and Prince of that world saying that he is also called in Leuiticus the Prince of the deserts Sith then that our body is created and made of the slime and dust of the earth and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the serpent they conclude thereby that our bodies are subiect vnto him and in his power vntill such time as they be sanctified and that the earthly fleshe bee transformed and changed into a spirituall nature And therfore say they that that body hath neede both in his buriall whilest that he is in this earth to be purified sanctified through prayers sacrifices encensements exorcismes coniurations and other ceremonies fit for the same Theophilus Durand in that booke wherein he yeldeth the reason of all the popish ceremonies speaking of the office and burying of the dead allegeth the same reasons and almost nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabalistes Wherein we may well know that the supersticious christians followe more the Iewish and Cabalisticall doctrine then the Christian and Apostolicall doctrine For Durand himselfe is compelled to confesse that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their sinnes which could not then by such things be defaced put out But to the ende that the wicked spirites and theyr presence should be dryuen away And therefore saith hée that in some places they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue with the fire and encense and that the holy water is put there to the eâ—de that the diuell shoulde not come neere for he doth feare it very much Hillarius It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier vnto whom the diuel appeared so terrible that he could not speake for feare And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche Fryer Giles could not arise but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a vessell wherein was holy water wherewith hee sprinkled himselfe and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him Theophilus Behold a good proofe the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Iesus Christe and the faith in him or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith which is the buckler and shield wherewith the Apostle teacheth vs to resist the diuell I do muche meruaile where God hathe commauÌ„ded to driue away the diuell by water and when the true seruants of God haue vsed such weapons aginste the diuell Hillarius At the leastwise they must prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water Theophilus When the witnes of the scripture faileth it must néedes be that those maisters of ceremonies haue then recourse vnto fables But for to returne againe vnto the reasons of Durand he addeth moreouer that in what soeuer place the christians shal be buried out of the churchyarde they ought to set alwayes a crosse at his head For the diuell doth feare very much that signe dareth not to come nigh the place where he seeth the crosse Hillarius That is bicause that the earth which is out of the church yard is not coniured Wherby it hath not so much vertue And therfore in recoÌ„pence they do ad y crosse for to driue away the diuell Theophilus For y same cause do they also coniure y earth of y churchyard For as they do witnes affirme the diuels haue vsed to get theÌ„ vnto the dead bodies and to exercise their cruelty and vengeaunce against them and inforce themselues to do vnto them at the least wise after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whilest they were aliue Furthermore they say that at the day of iudgement our Lorde Iesus Christe will say vnto them that present themselues vnto him that whiche be aunswered vnto the disciples of the Herodians and Pharises when they asked of him the question of the tribute and that they had shewed vnto him the money and Image of Cesar Euen so will he say vnto those whose is this Image what money is this Then those which shal be marked with the crosse shal be knowen to bee good christian money And Iesus Christ will say that whiche is Cesars that is to say vnto the diuell giue it him that which is vnto God giue it to God. Hillarius I am abashed if the diuell dares carrye away those which haue made vppon them the signe of the materiall crosse especially the priestes and moonks whiche are all hyd and couered with them Are not these goodly reasons and most worthy of such diuines Eusebius Yea those are Godly reasons what will you say to the contrary do ye thinke that soe manye wise men which haue bene in the churche haue not well considered the causes wherefore they ought to do that And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good iust reason Theophilus Thou hast heard them and thou hast also the Iewes Cabalists and Panyms for to be the firste authors of them But those dreames are yet more tollerable and worhty of pardon then those here bycause that hauing the braine full of false opinions and inchauntments they feare least the enchauntors Magitians and especially the coniurers and the diuell with them should abuse their bodies thorow their enchauÌ„tments necromances witchcraft But what excuse or coloure can the christians haue who ought to be assured of their saluation in Iesus Christ as wel for the body as for the soule vsing such ceremonies which I may truly call charmes inchauntements magicall supersticions and purifications and not euangelical For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth how will God permit and suffer that that olde serpent shall defile those bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple habit ation of his holy ghost And whiche haue bene consecrated vnto him thorow the bloud of his sonne Iesus Christ and sanctified thorow his spirite haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed after the manner as the enchaunters charmers do their exorcisms coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall crosse more vertue then the consecration of our bodies and soules whiche Iesus Christ the great and soueraigne Byshoppe and eternall Priest hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy spirit and the baptisme that we haue receyued in his name And if we as good christians haue borne the crosse with him that is to say the troubles and aduersities of this world in all patience and haue put all our hope and trust in the merite of his death passion reioysing our selues only in his crosse as the holy apostle saith
sing the daye of the feaste of Candlemas as it is contayned in the Pissell not that I will recyte word for word all their blessing but onely the principall points for to proue our meaning by the which thou maist iudge of the rest They sing unto God we hubly besech thee that thorow the muecation of thy holy name and by the intercession of the holy uirgin Mary the mother of thy sonne whose feast this day we deuoutely celebrate by the prayers of al thy Saincts that it would please thee to blesse and sanctifie these candles for the use of man and the health of the soules and bodies bee it in the earth or in the waters Beholde their owne proper wordes rehearsed truely worde for worde Where haue they founde that the Candels do serue for the health of the soules and bodies and that they haue any other use theu for to giue light unto the corporall eyes but in the bookes of the Panims But by and afferwards they do say worse Parke then their wordes O Lord Iesus Christ we humbly beseche thee to blesse this creature of war and shead soorth in the same thy heauenly blessing by the vertue of the holy Crosse to the ende that as thou hast guien it unto makinde for to put driue away the darknes it may recelue such force and benediction by the signe of thy holy crosse in what place soeuer it shall be lighted or set that that wicked diuell may flee and tremble and auoyd altogether amased and made a fraide with all his ministers from those habitations and that hée presume no more to trouble those which do serue god And by and by after there is yet more Ido blesse thee thou creature of war in the name of our Lorde God and of the holy Trinitie to the ende thou mayst be the extermination and driuing away of the Diuell and all his complises What mockery is this must the name of GOD bee so abused in Charmes and Witchecraftes For wherein doe these benedictions and blessings dyffer from the charmes and coniuratyons of sorcerers and witches aswell as the Exorcisme and adiuration of their holy water and Salte whiche they put into it What doeth that Exorcisine and adiuration signiste I exercise and adiure thee thou Creature of Salte by the liuing GOD by the true GOD by the holy GOD by the GOD which comnaunded that thou shouldest bee put into the water by the Prophet Eliseus for to heale the sterilitie and barrennes of the waters to the ende thou be made an adiured Salt to the health of them that beleeue to the ende that thou mayst be unto all those which will take thée health of soule and bodye and that all fantasie malyce dsuhtyle crafte of the diuell maye auoyde and depart from the place where thou shalt bee sheade abrcade and all vncleane spirite adiured by him which shall iudge the quicke and the dead and the world with fire Hillarius Thou wilt make vs here by and by holye water Sith that thou hast made the Exorcisine sing nowe the Oremus Theophilus There are no lesse blasphemics in it But sith that thou wilt haue it thou shalt O eternall God altogether mightie we humbly innocate and call vpon thy infinite clemency that it would please thée to blesse †and sanctifie †this creature of Salt the which thou hast giuē for the vse of mankinde to the ende that it may bée vnto all those which will take it helth of soule and body and that all that which shalbée touched with the same or sprinkled should bee without any filth and all the assault and cembat of the spirituall enemie Hillarius I haue heard many Priesses who in stéed to say Careatomni immundicia doe say Careat omni mundicia But they do vse the figure whiche the Gramarians do call Apheresis or for to speake better the figure called the ignoraunce of the Gramer I doe verelye thincke that all that whiche they sprinckle abideth well according to the prayer that they make wythout cleanenesse Wherefore those whom they doe sprinckle when they make their great Asperges me maye very well saye as Valentinian sayde who was the chiefe Captayne in the Courte of Iuhan the Apostate but yet neuerthelesse a good Christian and afterwardes chosen Emperour Thomas What sayd he Hillarius At a certeyne time as lulian entered into the Temple of Fortune and that on both the sides of the doores the ministers and Priests of the Temple were who accordinge as they made men to vnderstand thorow that sprinckling of that water did purge those that did enter in after the same manner as cur priests doe yet at thys daye to those whiche doe enter or goe foorth of the church Valentinian who did goe before lulian the Prince espyed a droppe of that water which had bene shed vppon his cloake for which he was very angry insomuch that he gaue a Priest Minister of the temple a great stroke with his fist saying Thou hast defiled mée not purged mée Hée had as much good reason as Diogenes who at a certeine time béeing entered into a filthy stincking bath sayde Those which doe bathe and wash themselues héere wher doe they wash them Letting therby to vnderstand that those which bathe and wash them in those bathes come foorth more filthy then they were before they entered and that they haue more neede to bée washed then before for they haue gathered nothinge but filthynesse But this Apothegme and sentence neuer agréed better then with our Priestes whiche defile all those which goe vnto them howe cleane soeuer they be But thou halt yet adiured and coniured but the salt Yet remaineth the water Theophilus They do blaspheme yet moreouer For they pray that it may be adiured and coniured for to driue away all the power of the enemie and to teare and pluck vp the enemies themselues with all his apostate Angels and for to drwe away the Diuels and diseases and that all that which shall be sprickneled with it either in the houses or in the place of the faythfull shoulde bée wythout spot or hurt that the spirite of pestilence doe not remaine and rest there nor the infectious windes nor aire that al vncleane spirites and the terrour of the venomous Serpent and all the assaultes and ambusshes of the euemye and all euill bée altogether driuen away To conclude they require that it maye doe all thinges And so by that meanes wée shall haue no more néede of Iesus Christ The Candles the Ware the Salt and the Water wyll doe all Eusebius You speake very euyll For you maye well perceiue howe they yraye vnto God that hée woulde giue vnto them that vertue by his sonne Iesus Christ whō they acknowledge to be the authour of all good things Theophilus If they acknowledge him for such a one what néede haue they then of War Salt and Water for to obtaine of him the goods which are
water or W any thing that one can do to it Therfore it was called inextinguible Hillarius It must be if that be true that it wae artyffcially made or else by magycall Arte. But I thinke that they woulde make as greate an accompt if they had such fire as that same which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Arges the which they dyd saye sell from keauen I demaunde of thée friende Theophilus what thinckest thou hathe bene the first cause of that Idolatry Theophilus I cannot perceyue that they haue any other cause but the same whiche hath ingendered all the other Gods amonge the Panyms which haue delfied and called Gods all the creatures of whome men dooe féele ayde and helpe Seeinge then the great poritie whiche is in the fire and the greate vitlytie that men dyd receyue thereby and howe necessarye it was vnto mans lyfe and howe it represented the fires and celestiall lyghfes of the sunne and of other planets and starres whome mey haue also â—olden for Gods bycause of their greate beautie and vtilytie they dyd in lyke manner thincke that they had iust occasion to holde and take the fire for a God whiche they dyd sée to bée of one selfe nature wyth the celestiall fire whiche alwayes moueth and gyueth lyfe vnto all thinges as the soule of them They had yet certeine other occasions in that that the holye Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire and calleth hym a consuminge fire and that God appeareth sometime in the lykenesse of fire and that the fire came downe from heauen oftentymes for to consume the sacryfices of the holye Patriarches and Prophetes They had more iust occasion to confirme themselues in that opinion and more goodlyer appearaunce for to allow their religion then the Papistes haue for their Images and Idolls For wée cannot denye but that the fire is a lyuelye Image of God which sheweth foorth and reprosenteth vnto vs it selfe more lyuely then all the Idolls which euer were in the worlde And therefore God woulde appeare in the lykenesse of fire and represent hys gyftes and graces his vertue and power by the same the which he woulde neuer dooe by Idolls and Images and woulde neuer appeare in them nor speake nor doe any vertue or myracles by them but hath lefte the same for the Dyuell who is serued wyth such instrumentes the whiche God hath altogether reiected and cursed and hathe defamed them by defamed tytles calling them filthynesse vanytie lying nothing abhomination and other like names which oftentimes are rehearsed in the bookes of the Prophets Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Persians good occasion to preferre it aboue all the other For sith that all the other were either of wood and of slone or of golde silver or other mettalles he did melte burne and consume all insomuch that there was not one whiche coulde resist him Hillarius Xerxes hing of Persia declared it very well vnto the Greekes when hée came into Greece wyth so great an army For hée burned all the Temples Idolles and Images of Asia except the same of Diana the Goddesse of the Ephesians bicause of the excellent beautie of the same and for the cunning buylding which was therein that it was compted among the seauen moste chiefest workes which was in the worlde which for their admirable and excessiue beautie building and cunning were called the seauen miracles of the worlde Thomas Wherefore did Xerxes the same Hillarius Bicause that the Persians had no Temples nor Images and dyd thincke that one dyd greate iniurye vnto the maiestie of God which is infinite to chutte and limite him by the worke made with mans hande In lyke manner Plutarch doth write that the Romaines haue bad their Temples wythout Images after that the citie was builded 170. yeares bicause that they were taught by the king Numa that God was an inuisible spirite which neuer was created And notwithstanding that they doe honour the fire vnder the name of the Goddesse Vesta yet neuerthelesse they neuer made Image for to represent the one nor the other but were content to kéepe that holy fire as hath bene sayde and as it appeareth by the witnesse of Ouid saying Within the Temple fire remaind and still vnquencht did lye The fire and Vesta wanted forme to shew their shapes thereby And a little afterwards he sayth By Arte of Syracusia framd there hangeth in the aire A little globe that represents the forme of heauens faire Thomas If the Persians did take the for God they did not altogether without reason if they would not haue locked shut him vp For he doth open the gates although that one would shut him vp knoweth to go out euery way Hillarius The experience hath bene well shewed in the Temple of Diana the Ephesian For notwythstandinge that Xerxes spared it yet neuerthelesse his GOD woulde not spare it thorowe whose ayde Herostratus dyd bringe it to passe who dyd set it on fire and bourned it altogether Thomas Wherefore dyd hée that Hillarius Hée hath confessed hymselfe that hée dyd it for couetousnesse of renowne to that ende that men should speake of hym For hée neuer dyd any vertuous acte whereby hée myght gette a name And therefore hée tooke vppon him to doe such an acte to the ende that the remembraunce of his name shoulde bée eternall amougest men Theophilus Herostratus dyd let the Ephesians well to vnderstande that the fire had more vertue then their Diana Hillarius Thou vnderstandest not the cause and howe the Panims dyd excuse the Goddesse Thou oughtest to vnderstande that the verye same night that Herostratus dyd sette the Temple of Diana on fire Olympias the mother of greate Alexander was in hauayle wyth child bicause that Diana was gone thether for to helpe hir trauaile to bringe foorth Alexander shée coulde not defende hir Temple For thou doest very well know that woemen dyd call vppon hir in their trauayle And therefore shée béeinge absent and busied aboute Olympias and hir sonne Alexander shée coulde not helpe hir Temple nor resist the God of the Persians no more then the Gods of our Priestes can at this daye resist it For that cause the Chaldeans dyd meruaylously beast themselues against all other Patyons sayinge that there were none that had suche a God as theirs which consumeth all other Yet neuerthelesss if the tale or historye bée true whiche Suidas dyd tell of a Prieste of Canopus hée played or shewed them a fine feate of whome hée hath written that the Priest of god Canopus which was adored and worshipped of some in Aegypt seeing the arrogancie and pride of the Chaldeans fearing also to loose his good théere and fare if the maiesty of his God were diminished deuised this crafte and discepte In Aegypt they vsed to make waterpottes of earth hauing many holes for to distill the water and to make it more pure bicause that
Aegyptians 184. Antiquitie of the Areadians 184. Antiquitie and instruction of mariage 185 Apes of the Apostles 126 Apparell white 167 Appearing of spirits to what end they pretende 135 Appellations extremes to whom they belong 198 Apophâ—hegme of Diogenes 153. Artillerie Papisticall 116 Aspersions and sprinklings at the entring in comming forth of the temple 153 Ashes holy 168 Ashes of an Heyfer 171 Ashes of the Auncients 169 Ashes of the vestales 171. Saint Augustine 175 Authoritie of S. Augustin for the suffrages for the deade 176 Authors of the Masse 183. Authours of the eclestiall and Ecclesiasticall Hierarchia 126 Ayme Duke of Sauoye 191 B. Bacchanales Bacchus 140 Banket and supper for the dead 132 Baptisme deferred 172 Baptisme for the dead 172. 183 Baptised to be for the dead 172 Beginning of prayers for the deade 116 Benifices and offices giuen by parentage 139 Bellyes giuen to slouth vnder coulour of religion 123 Bessation 191 Berengarus 139 Bying of the sielde of Ephron 118 Bloud of Iesus 163 Blessing of the brides bed 147 Blessing of Torches and Tapers 153 Blessing of the Pascell fire 157 〈…〉 171 〈…〉 â—â—6 138 〈…〉 195 〈…〉 of propositâ—â—â— 144 〈◊〉 and mourning for Iacob and Mosis 117 C. Candelles of a good saiut 181 Candelles blessed and prucessious 151 Candelles for the health of soule and bodie 152 Candelmes day 147 Caruâ— the goddesse the porter 167 Castor and Pollus 1â—1 The cause of the mourning of the Israelites 119 The cause of the institucioÌ„ of feasts 147 Celerin and his family 179 Cereales 151 Certitude in the doctrme of faith required 196 Ceremonies 170 Chameleon 1â—3 Charmes 152 Chastitie and secretly 145 Chase away the diuell by fasting prayers 171 Charge of ceremonies 130 Cloris 166 Christians sauage wilde 146 Combat of Mars and Mineâ—â—a 136 The true Commemoration of the death of Iesus Christ 151 Commemorantes 181 To Communicate sacramentally spiritually 186 Comparison of the Ashes of an Heiser holy water 163 Conformitie and deformitie of the Bacchanales and the Shroftide 146 Conformities betweene the religion of the Paâ—â—ms and the Popes 136 Conformitie betweene God mars and faint Geâ—rge 137 Conformitie of the feastes of the deade 137 Conformitie of Cyble to our Lady 138 Constancy of the Greekes 190 Complaint of Saint Augustine 130 Coâ—â—uring of the water 153 To put the Lorde about the necke 144 Coâ—empaing of the Gospel 14â— Counsell and moderation of Saint Paul 144 Councile of Constance and of Basle 187 Councile of Florence 190 Councile of Lateran 190 Councile of Basill 190 Councile of Ferrara 190 Councile of Innocent Pope and others 190 Conuent of Monkes 183 Couetous of renowne 156 Creatures of the Pope 143 Creators of the creatour 143 Craft and deceite of a Priest of Canopus 157 Custome of the Romaines 123 Custome of the Thracians 122 Custome of the Cathercumenes 172 Custome of the Lecedemonians 123 Custome of the Lycians 123 Custome auncient of the Massilians 123 Cyble 137 Cygales 133 Cypâ—â—an 177 D. Dayes appointed to mourne for what cause 119 Dayes Aristotolicalls 134 Dayes dedicated to the deed 117 Dauâ—d and Abimelech 141 Denis Areopagâ—te 126. 177 Diana Strongilios or Diana Rotunda 138 The disceite which Faunus did thinke to do vnto Hercules 147 Difference betweene â—hisike and Philosphiie a charmer and a Magicyan 154 Dishonour vnto the Urigin Mary 151 Little dispenses costes about the dead 132 Dispensation of mariage 124 Dispensations of the Pope 141 Disputations of the bablers of Diuinytie 196 Disputations of the Athess of the hoast 161 Diuersitie of opinions touching the suffrages for the dead 196 Doctrine of the Apostles perfect 193 Dionisiales 146 E. Easter 150 Eccâ—â— 115 Egges of Serpents 197 Elect in daunger to be seduced 197 Aeneas 129 Ende of mans life 142 Ende of the Popes Lawes 143 Eucratistes and Seuerians 141 Epitaphe of Lucresse 141 Errour of the Idolaters and hypocrits 164 Example of Dauid 125 Excommunication for communion 18â— Exhortacion to repentance 144 F. False following of the worke of Saints 164 Fastings condempned 170 Fastings of the auncients 169 Fastings and abstinence of the Panims 171 Fastings 167 Fasting the principall vse 170 Fannes and Satyres 147 Februa 131. 149 Feastes and Anniuersaries for the deade and their beginning 128 Feasted for the deade in Februarie 129 Feastes of Martyrs and confessors 13â— The feast of the dead 138 An other feast of the dead 139 Feasts of mad men 140 Feast of saint Peters chaire 133 Feasts of the dead in May. 129 Feasts cut in peeces 139 An other feast of the deade in Ianuarie 139 Feasts of fooles 140 Feast of Kings 14â— Feast of the Panims comprised in the feast of Candels 14â— Feralis Coena 132 Fire of Vesta 158 Fire Diuturnall and eternall 194 Fire kindeled in the Temple of Vesta 160 Fire and water the Gods of the Papists 157 Fire the God of the Persians 154 Fire made a God. 159 Fires of S. Brandon of Ihon. 168 The true fire what it is 162 Flora. 166 Florales 151. 166. Fluona 149 The force of gold and of Iron 159 Fraction or breaking of the hoast 188 G. Gerion 131 Gift of continency 144 Gifts to doe myracles in the primitiue Church 126 Goddesse Pecunia 143 Goddesse of Beasts 169 God Ris. 150 God compared to fire 155 God Canopus 156 Gods of fire and water 162 The great God of the Pope 14â— The most puissant God of the Priests 158 Good fryday 150 Gold why it is pale 159 Gregory the first 116 Gregory the third 116 Gregory the fourth 138 H. Handkerchefe of Chambery 160 Harpe of Orpheus and that of the pope 131 Hecate triua triformis 131 Hercules 131 Herostratus 156 Hillaria 150 Holy bread and the breade of saint Agathe 165 Holy hoast 158 Hoostes the subtillest in the world 186 Humilytie famed 170 Hypocrits 170 Hymenius the God of mariages 136 I. Ieto me contrarie vnto mariage 145 Saint Iessiye 140 Ieast of a holy father 134 Iewes among the Christians 160 Idolatrie of the fire and plamrets 155 Images Noses stopped and couered 172 Images instruments of the diuell 155 Image of saint George cast into Saine 137 Imitacion of the Iewes and Panyms and of Mahomet 128 Incredulytie 171 Induction 142 Institucion of the supper 185 Infirmitie of man. 148 Interpretation of the blessing of the new fire 157 Inuocation of Saints 181 Iulian the Apostat 132 Iuno Sospita 167 Iuno and Diana Queene of Heauen 138 Iupiter a sauiour 167 L Laughing of the Soules 134 Lawe of â—uma for the marriage of widowes 124 Lawes of marriage what they ought to be 124 Laws of the Romaines of the mourning of widowes 124 Lawe of the Iewish funeralles 120 Lawe of fastings 169 Lawes cimles and obedience to Maiestrates 142 Lewes King. 1â—9 Lent. 240 Libertie of the Gospell 120 Libertie Christian 11â— Lymit of mans affection 121 Lugentibus in Purgatory 166 Lupercales 129. 149 M. Manner by the which the soules are deâ—uered 176 Manner and
the Iudge vnto whom they haue appealled and which in stéede to be iudged of him they would iudge him Theophilus Stay a while Eusebius Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute Thinke not that wée are become Papistes sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God as he doth wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist to whom alone it apperteineth We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures But if we discerne put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical those that are Apocripha thou oughtest not to accuse vs therefore except thou doe by that same reason render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church chiefely Sainct Hierome and in like manner your decrées and Canons whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees Eusebius I confesse that amonge the Iewes it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church Wherefore I conclude that those that beny that they are not canonicall are not the sonnes of the Church but bastardes of the Sinagogue Hillarius Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of â—ccius Behold one shot of his Canons Theophilus If it be so Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals in that prolegne in whiche be hath recited them all in order doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here then the other And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas and principally of the second out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew But not the seconde the which hath bene onely written in Greeke The whiche thing as he saith may proue it selfe by the pâ—rase and manner of the speaking the which hée vsed To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye of the Machabees vnderstanding that by him it was written Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome that history hath bene written by Ioseph bâ—ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority theÌ„ the other bookes of Ioseph the which we do reade â— no receiue as histories very profitable But a greate deale wantoth that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie as vnto those the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt to be y body of y holy Scripture Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouerâ—es of Salomon The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees but shee receineth them net among the Canonical Eusebius Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall Theophilus Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest speaking of the number of the times which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon vntill the comming of Iesus Christe Did he not write that the account and number of them are not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in the other among which are the bookes of the Machabees Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures Eusebius Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle why dost thou not adde that which followeth afterwardes The whiche sayth hée the Iewes hold not for Canonical but the Church doth Theophilus But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore the which serueth to my purpose Eusebius Hee sayth that it is bicause of the vehement and merueilous passions of some Martirs whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe for the lawe of GOD before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments Theophilus He vnderstandeth by those Martirs the seuen brothers of the Machabees with their mother who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of god It is easie to vnderstand by those words that the Church hath not receiued those bookes in suche authoritie as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical Apostolical church nor to be sufficient for to allow confirme or for to builde any doctrine which ought to be holeÌ„ for an article of faith for to vanquish the hereticks But only in such stéede as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories legends of martirs not a heape of foolish fabulous legends made by a heape of dreaming and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks as are the liues of the fathers the golden legend and other like more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras Orson Valentine the erring kinghtes Mandeuill or the true narrations of Lutian and others like made for pleasure then among the Ecclesiasticall histories But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men as the bookes of Iosephus Eusebius Sozomenus Theodoritus Socrates and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories and the liues of Martyrs for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples But not that they are of such authoritie that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine And that it is euen so as I doe saye I will not proue it by anye other witnes then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee That is to saye Sainct Augustin who hath written in an other place after this manner saying The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees as the Law the Prophets and Psalmes to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes as vnto this witnesses saying All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche not without profit if one doe reade and marke it soberly Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time if it were not but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue that it is of the holy Scripture and that we doe deny it After that sorte haue bene allowed some bookes called the Canons oâ—
time what fault can be in the child and what consolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother being alreadie sufficiently scourged and afflicted of the hand of God to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile and banished from Paradise for euer And that hee is detayned in the Limbe in the which without ceasing hee curseth Father and mother At the least wyse the Carhards haue preached and perswaded them so Thomas Yea I haue heard them preach more ouer that is to say that it were better that a Towne a Ceuntry or a kingdome were drowned then an Infaunt shoulde dye without baptisme Theophilus If the Infant did come vnto the age of discretion and that hee despisoth the baptisme I would not excuse his infidelitie and rebellion Or if the father mother thorough their negligence dispising infidelitie haue made none accompt to baptise their child I would not also excuse them but that they should yeld them selues greatly culpable before God worthy of greeuous punishment But I will not yet neuerthelesse therefore iudge rashely of the saluation of the childe For GOD knoweth those that are his And man hath not power to danipue him whome God woulde haue saued And if it hath not pleased God to shewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother that they cannot sée their childe aliue for to offer and present him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptisme wherefore shall hée vse such furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents which are already ynough desolate and without comfort What iniury doe you vnto Iesus Christe These Infants borne dead shoulde not haue great occasion to blesse his comming nor to sing with those which haue receiued him when he entred into Hierusalem Blessed be the sonne of Dauid which commeth in the name of the lord They should haue hadde more iust occasion to cursse and detest him sith that in steede to amende their condition hée hath put them in worfe estate then the Iewes were before his comming You cannot denye that absurditie and inconuenience if you will mainteine your doctrine truely the which declareth it selfe altogether contrary to the doctrine of the gospell full of all consolation in stéede of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despaire Hillarius I can speake by experience For I haue knowen holy woâ—men walking in true simplicitie of heart and great feare of God which were so troubled in their conscience bicause that such inconueniences happened vnto them and that they were so perswaded that with much a doe one could sinde any meanes to comfort them and set their conscyence at rest and in quiet what soeuer things 〈◊〉 say vnto them Although that one tolde and affirmed vnto them that our Lady of Lausanne shewed grace vnto the Infant and that those which were present did witnesse vnto them of the goodly myracle that she had done in rayaÌ„ng to life the Infant for to baptise it being dead afterwardes did put him in the graue yet neuerthelesse all that coulde not assure them and they coulde not be at rest in their conscience vntill such time as thorough the preaching of the Gospell they were deliuered from those false oppinions of Caphards and deuillishe doctrines Theophilus That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire the consciences shoulde be troubled desolate for then gaine they most They haue of meÌ„ that they desire their fishing is best in troubled water Eusebius Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde haue impaired the estate of the Christians But wherein For those of the Iewes shal no more enter into Paradise then those here Theophilus If they went into Abrahams bosome by the which thou vnderstandest the Lymbe there was no more greater punishment for them then for the others which were circumcysed sith that all doe goe thither indifferently as I haue sufficiently shewed vnto thee Afterwards those which then were in the Lymbe hoped to be deliuered the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Christians Wherefore it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde rather come for to showe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God then his grace and mercy Furthermore those which were in Abrahams bosome were not without hauing some taste and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyse as it appeareth plainely by the wordes of Abraham answering vnto the rich man after this manner Thou hast had pleasure in this worlde Wherefore thou must howe suffer and that the chaunce be tourned And contrariwise Lazarus hath suffered greate tribulations and iniseryes Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at rest and ioy Thou canst not denye but that these wordes are true If they bée true thou art constrayned to confesse that in Abrahames bosome is consolation rest and ioy And howe can these thinges be out of the kingdome of GOD which is righteousuesse peace and ioye in the holye Ghost Eusebius I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes being deade without Circumsition should go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers but into another Theophilus It behoueth then to forge Lymbes But where is the witnesse of the Scripture for to prooue the same And do the children of the Christians go straight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers Eusebius No. Hillarius Then there is presently a chamber to heyre Theophilus Doest thou not knowe into what dreams and foolishnesse that doctrine doth leade you Truely I am ashamed Wherefore I pray thée that thou do holde thy selfe content with that that I haue aunswered vnto thée and that nowe thou do come vnto the question which I haue propounded vnto thee to wit what difference thou puttest betwéene the bosome of Abraham and Paradise Eusebius I do not meane to passe thy question without aunswering vnto it But thou lettest slippe the principall obiection which I haue made vnto thee without hauing satisfyed mee therein Wherefore I would haue the resolution before thou doest escape mée Howe may wée then vnderstande that which Iesus Christ hath said Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god Doth he not by those wordes openly declare that the baptisme of the water is necessarie vnto saluation And that he which shall not be baptised with water cannot enter into she kingdome of heauen For he hath not onely sayde hee that shal be borne a newe of the Spirite but he hath also added the water for to declare that the one and the other are requisit I confessâ— that the water without the spirit suffiseth net and that the visâ—â—l◠〈◊〉 without faith cannot saue For it is first saydâ—â—â—â— thâ—◠〈◊〉 afterwards there is added and is baptised shall bee saued But I cannot vnderstand but that the baptisme of the water is in like manner necessarie vnto saluation Or I know not to what
ende Iesus Christe prâ—tended by those wordes that hee hath aunswered vnto 〈◊〉 Theophilus Before we do passe any farther note dâ—â—ygently that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath sayed He that beléeueth and shal be baptised shal be saued Yet neuerthelesse in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not reâ—terated the baptisme He hath not saide he that beléeueth not and shall not be baptised shal be condempned But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing shewing that without the same none can be deliuered from condemnation the which he hath not affirmed of the baptisme And yet neuerthelesse he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptisme And not only of the same of the young children but of the â—lde and greate ones vnto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospell Now iudge if Iesus Christ hath not required the visible baptisme of the greate ones as necessary vnto saluation how wil he require it of the young children I will geue none occasyon vnto any man by my wordes to despyse the Sacraments For thou knowest already what sentence I haue giuen against those that do despise it But I doâ—â—eane anâ— saâ— that if any good man were eyther among the Turkes or among the Idolaters and Infidels which had knowledge of the gospel true faith in Iesus Christ and that it was not possible for him to bee baptised I cannot beléeue that he should be dampned for lacke of a little water sith that he hath the principall to witte the faith or otherwise the water shoulde haue more vertue efficacie then the bloud of Iesus Christ or at the least as much And the Priest which administreth the baptisme should haue as much power as Iesus Christ himselfe For it should follow that euen as the water or the Minister in like manner can do nothing without the spirit bloud of Iesus Christ that Iesus Christes spirit also nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Minister And so Iesus Christ and his espirit should be as much subiect vnto the Minister and the water as the water and the Minister vnto them And so consequently his grace mercy shall be bound vnto the corruptible elements subiect vnto men After that manner Iesus Christ should bée no more a true God nor a true Sauiour And so it is easy to iudge that such doctrine procéedeth not of God sith that it â—â—pugneth euidently the grace of God the iustification of faith and the annalogy of the saâ—ie and boâ—â—â— ouerturne altogether the mistery of y redeption made by Iesus Christ The which thing not onely the auncient Doctors but also the Scholasticals and Questionaries haue wel perceiued namely the master of the sentences which proueth by good reasons and by the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Church that some are iustified saued without baptisme amongest whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead and haue suffered martyrdome for the conâ—â—â—â—ion of Iesus Christ In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is sette foorth by the master of the sentences by the which he witnesseth that the saith the repenâ—aunce and conuersâ—on of the heart doth recompence and suffice for baptisme vnto those that haue not the time nor place for to receiue it they doe call it baptisme of 〈◊〉 And for confirmation of this he ioyneth to the example of the théeâ—e which was crucified next to Iesus the which saith he was not crucified for the name of Christ but for his demerits and wicked déedes And he did not suffer bicause â—e beléued but in suffering he beléeued It is then declared in that theeâ—e how much sayth aâ—ayleth without the Sacrament of visible baptisme The which the Apostle sayth The beléefe of the heart iustifieth and to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe But then hée doth accomplish it inuisibly when the necessitye shutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptisme not the dispisinge of the religion Hee may haue some kinde of baptisme where he shall not haue couersion of y heart And the conuersion of the heart maye bée in some without hauing receiued baptisme But it cannot be ther where baptisme is dispised and we must not in no wise call that conuersion of the heart vnto God when the sacrament of God is dispised Be holde the witnesse the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls and the master of the sentences taken of Cyprian addeth the same of Saint Ambrose touching the Emperour Valentiâ—ian who dyed without baptisme of whoÌ„ he saith I haue lost him whom I ought to haue regenerated But yet neuerthelesse hée hath not lost the grace the which hée required Now if we ought to haue such confidence and trust of the health and saluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptisme by a more stronger reason we ought to haue it of the young Infants For if they be of Gods elect it is in his power to baptise them in their mothers belly by his holy spirit to sanctifie them as it is written of Iacob of â—eremy Sainct Iohn Baptist of Saint Paul Eusebius How can we then absolue the proposition of Iesus Christ For it is generall and exclusiue without excepting any person Theophilus As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his bloud speaking in this manner verely verely I say vnto you except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall not haue life in you Doth not that proposition counteruailâ— as much as if he had sayd whosoeuer shall not eate my flesh and drinke my bloud shall not haue eternall life none can denie the same It followeth then that all the younge children are dampned and all those which doe not coÌ„municate in the Sacrament of the supper if the Popish doctrine bée true that Iesus Christ is really in the hoast and that wée must there eate hys flesh and drinke his bloude after the manner as they haue taught vs It shall not be then no lesse necessary to keepe the consecrated hoastes and of the Gods in the boxe for to communicate to the little children to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariste as the same of baptisme For the wordes of Iesus Christ doe vrge no lesse in the one of the places then in the other And if thou doo thinke that there is great difference I wil shew vnto thée easely that many among the auncients haue perceiued iudged it to be so as I say or otherwise in the time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Eucharistia for to giue it vnto the little children when they were sicke if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary Yet neuerthelesse it is written in the booke of Ansegisus Abbot of Liege that the same was done in that time there and reciteth the
Annallogie of the faith that none can speake against it except he do loue rather to contende and striue thorowe obstination then to content himselfe with reason And if thou doe diligently consider and well way that which hath béene aunswered vnto thée thou mâ—ist profite by it many wayes For by the same thou maist knowe what ought to be the vse of the sacraments what ought to be the true baptisme and the true regeneration of a Christian If thou dost vnderstande that thou shall bée 〈◊〉 more in doubt nor in 〈◊〉 of the younge Infantâ—â— which dye without baptisme But wylt leaue them in the handes of God and 〈◊〉 reforâ—e all vnto his mercy And if thou bée once come vnto that pointe thâ—â— shalt also knowe the 〈◊〉 oâ— those which doe carie their children that are borâ—â— dead 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they dyd in that 〈◊〉 vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of grace of Geneua or vnto our 〈◊〉 of Lauâ—anne Thomas They did also cary them vnto the holye crosse and vnto our Ladye of Butter Hillarius Ther 〈◊〉 now then but a Lady of Chéese 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Butter the whiche is nowe altogether 〈◊〉 Wâ—â— shoulde haue but a little iudgement if wée â—â—â—we not those great abuses and to iudge of those false 〈◊〉 Further more by thâ—se same reasons thou maist iudge of the 〈◊〉 of those which doe giue authoritie vnto the wise and 〈◊〉 â—â—emon to baptisâ— the younge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 daunger of 〈◊〉 Eusebius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there in that Hillanius Thâ—◠〈…〉 can tell thée Theophâ—â—â—â— There is first of all this euill that those that require such baptisme are of an opinion that it is so necessary vnto 〈◊〉 that without the same their childe cannot be saned Wherein they doe 〈◊〉 vnto the grace of Iesus Christ and doe presume 〈◊〉 of the vertue of his holy spirite and do render publicke and open witnesse of their superstition and infidelitie Againe they sinne in that that they doe dishonour the Sacramentes when they giue and bestowe them vnto others then vnto those vnto whome God hath giuen the charge to administer them Wherefore they cannot fayle either on the one side or on the other but that they are greatly to bée rebuked For if they doe adde to it necessitie it appeareth already into what errour they are If they saye that they doe not put to it necessitie and that they doe not tye the grace of God vnto the corruptible elementes and exteriour ministrie wherefore then doe they giue that authoritie vnto woemen without the word of God Wherefore doo they take any other 〈◊〉 then the same which is giuen them of Iesus Christ Wherefore doe they seperate that which God hath ioyned together For the baptisme the administration of Sacraments are ioyned together with the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 be seperated without ouer throwing the ornaâ— which Iesus Christ hath put and set in his Church Nowe euen as the institution of the Sacramentes is a publicke Ceremony and ioyned together with the ministrie of the Gospel so ought they to be administred publyckly in the Church by those selfe same vnto whome the ministrie of the Gospel is committed and which of God and of the same are â—lected pastorâ— and ministers And therefore Iesus Christ hath not giuen charge to baptise vnto others then vnto those vnto whom he hath commaunded to preach his gospel to exercise the Euangelicall ministrie in his Church For it is expreâ—â—y forbidden woemen to speake in the Church and to vsurpe vpon them any ecclesiastical office the which thing is not permitted but vnto woemen yet not vnto all indifferâ—â—ly but vnto those which are elected lawefully ordeyned to the same the which he doth sufficiently declare when he coÌ„maunded by his Apostle y all things should be done honestly in order For if in y â— â—â—uile administration order be required that it is not lawful to exercise y offices but to the officers dâ— we thinke y Iesus Christ requireth lesse in the ecclesiasticall policie and that hée will suffer that the same that he hath set should be ouerthrowen Those then that will allow the baptisme of women ought first to shew in what place God hath ordeyned it what witnesse or example of the Scripture they haue If that is wantinge them as I am well assured that it is they shall bée constrayned to confesse that that baptisme is giuen wythout fayth and that it is builded but vpon mans opinion For faith commeth by the hearinge of the worde of god If then it haue not the word of God it can haue no faith If it haue no fayth it is then sinne For all that whiche is done without fayth is sinne We maye then aske them euen as Iesus Christ asked the Pharises touching the baptisme of Iohn Baptist to witte whether it were from heauen or of men Also in lyke manner that baptisme of woemen whether it be of God or of men If they answere y it â—◠〈◊〉 God where are the witnesses of the Scripture Iâ— they answere it is of men as they shall 〈◊〉 constrayneâ— to say they shal be compelled to confesse that it is the procéeded from an other author contrary vnto God â—â—th that Iesus Christ directeth men vnto heauen and vnto God declaring thereby that that which is not of the one is of his coÌ„trary I cannot then conclude but that that baptisme is procéeded of any other but of the aduersary of God which would aduance women vnto the ministerie and ecclesiasticall offices from which God woulde drawe and pull them from it for to declare themselues in all thinges contrarye vnto god Euen so hath hée done amonge the Paâ—â—ms which haue vsed woemen Priestes And amonge the heretickes Martionistes who with their master Martion haue permitted woemen to baptyse as Epiphanius wytnesseth Beholde the examples witnesses which you may haue for your baptisme of women Eusebius I doe agrée vnto all that whiche thou sayest as touching the publyke office and hauinge no necessytie For the Councells Canons and auncient Doctours doe not saye much lesse but doe witnesse playnelye that it is not lawfull for anye person to baptise but vnto the Ministers of the Church as the Bishoppes and Priestes doe But they doe vnderstande the same when there is no extraordinarye necessitie and daunger of death For in such case they doe dispence and permit to doe it not onely vnto lay men and handycrafts men but in like mannâ—r â—nto women Theophilus Wée doe not dispute of that which men do permit but of that which god hath coÌ„maunded I finde no necessitie but wheÌ„ God giueth vs y means that ther may be falt in vs Neuertheles if it be néedful to arme thâ—selues with y authoritie of men in this matter yet wée will proue that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for vâ— For first of all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 that â—â—er Iesus Christ hath sayd â—â—to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and baptise Wherefore
followe the example of Iesus Christ and his Prophetes and Apostles who haue alwayes taught those with whome they had to doe in a language that they coulde beste vnderstande For that cause was gyuen vnto the Apostles the gyfte of tongues for to preach vnto all people and Nations knowing that the language ought to serue to the matter and not the matter to the language Wherefore considering that some men doe write in Hebrewe some in Greeke some in Latin others in Almayne and in Flemish others in Italian and Spanish I haue also written in a language with which I am best acquainted and haue most familiaritie according to my byrth and natiuitie Although that the matters that I entreate off shoulde haue a greater grace in the Latin tongue then in the French tongue and shoulde be vnto me more aduauntage For oftentimes I haue the matter ready that I néede not but to write them out of good Authours where I néede not to trauaile to translate the thinges in French the whiche is very harde and impossible especially vnto mée to sette them out wyth such grace and to interprete them so natiuely as they sound in their naturall language Hebrewe Greeke or Latin. For although I bée a poore Oratour in Latin I am not much better in french Wherefore although I doe not speake the language of Attica nor well beautified lyke a Retricion but that it happeneth oftentimes that I doe fall into my rude speache Or if I wander astraye in Fraunce and that I come agayne into the countrey I doe thincke that the fauourable Reader wyll well beare wyth such faultes and especially in the rymes and French verses which sometyme I mingle in these Dialogues following the example of the good Authours which haue willingly kept this custome to translate into verse after their owne language that whiche they alledge of the Poets which haue written it in an other language The which I haue done sometime bycause that I put in the margentes those Authours by the which I helpe my selfe for to discouer and vnhide better the abuses and superstitions to the ende that some men shoulde not thincke that I speake of the speakers of the Dialogues for the nonce and wythout iust occasion If ther be in my verses but little rime it sufficeth me so that it haue some reason For I do not make profession of Poetry it sufficeth me to tourne them grosly or plainely Besides that that I am an euill Oratour yet I am a worse Poet. Yet neuerthelesse I am fully certified that so many good mindes and wittes as Fraunce bringeth vp very able and experte both in Poetry and French prose shall haue none occasion to enuye mée nor to rebuke or finde faulte with my Poetry For they may very well iudge that I pretende not by my verses to haue the crowne of Baye and that I wyll not take from them their Science and name Also I hope that those vnto whome GOD hath gyuen more gyftes and grace to speake wyll consider to beare with my rude style as the Athenians who were the cummingest in all Greece both in doctrine and in language haue not despised the doctrine and language of the Philosopher Anacharsis notwithstandinge that hee was a Sythian and of a barbarous Nation They must also consider whiche knowe the greatnesse of the countrey wherein I am I haue sometimes vsed expresly some woordes which shall not bée receyued of those which sludye in the finenesse of the French tongue but I doe the same for to condiscend to the rudenesse and capacitie of the most ignoraunt whiche better vnderstande those woordes taken from their language then others that are more fine and eloquent Furthermore although that there are manye good men which haue already written of the matters of Religion in the French tongue wyth more hautye style and more elâ—quent then I can and of a more déeper and profounde knowledge Yet neuerthelesse I doe not thincke that those whiche knowe that Christian simplicitie and modestie is wyll neyther despyse my language nor my doctrine but that they wyll take it all in good parte consideringe that if Amos whiche was a shepeheard and many other Prophetes of base condition haue not vsed so high a style nor haue spoken so profoundly and learnedly as that kingly Prophet Dauid or that great Oratour Esay of the royall linage and brought vp in the court they haue not therefore leaft off to bée Prophetes and to speake through Gods spirite and to profite very muche in hys Church whose style they haue vsed And althoughe that the Euangelisles and Apostles haue not written in such pompe of woordes nor haue not so much trauayled after the language of Demosthenes and Cicero yet wee cannot denye but that they haue more profited to all mankinde by theyr â—ude stile then the others by all their pompe of humayne eloquence wythout any comparison But if wée consider Gods woorkes wée shall knowe that the holye Ghost althoughe that hée doe not reiect the eloquence whych is one of his gyftes yet neuerthelesse hée delighteth himselfe more in the simplicitie of language for to declare better hys vertue and efficacie to the ende that we doe not attribute vnto humayne eloquence that which apperteineth vnto hym I speake this bicause of some delicate moâ—thes and curious of language which regarde not but the stile and the manner phrase of speaking without considering the sentence and that that one speaketh as though men doe write for the tongue and for to learne onely for to iangle and prattle as the Pyes and Iayes not rather for to instruct the spirite soule and the conscience They regarde but the flowers and care not for the fruite And which is worse one shall finde them of such corrupt iudgementes that they preferre the paynted flowers before those that growe naturally thinckeing to beautifie their language and to enrich the French tongue GOD knoweth what a cuttinge and manglinge they make and howe they mangle the Latine so that they doe speake neither Latine nor french But desiring to auoide and not to vse all that which they thincke to bée common to the ende they might bée estéemed the greater Oratours doe forge and inuent a newe language and doe despise the good French woordes for to steale awaye those from straunge tongues That curiositie and affection of language is the cause that many delite rather to reade bookes full of scoffinges fables lyes and of blasphemyes then those of diuinitie or of some good diuines and holy men And this vice is not onely in the French tongue but also in that Latine For ther are some which haue so great feare to defile their golden tongue and to embrew their goodly stile with the simplicitie basenesse of the Propheticall and Apostolicall language that they had rather to defile their soules vnderstandinges and spirites in foolishe curious bookes or in the writinges of the Panims and Idolaters
then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch Or if they desire some time to drincke of it that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus They doe but sucke in the water hastely as though they were afrayde to touch it and that there were in it Crocodiles They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion But I can not allowe but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours or to others a greate deale worse and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue and to whiche they ought to be preferred Shall we not iudge him a foole out of his wyt which will alwayes staye in his Grammer and in the principles and rules of the same and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes and of Philosophie and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde sith that the Grammer yea the Rethoricke whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it And the Logicke also are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had which coulde reade vnto vs but doctrinall of Alexander and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour insomuch that one shall neuer haue done but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne Those some vnto me not to differ much from them For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe no more then the Grammer of Alexander or as Grecismus and Roiolis and the Logicke of Tartaret and of other Sophisters except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende For otherwise whereto shall all their science and eloquence serue but to the Panims and people without God the which is more hurtfull and daungerous then profitable to the common wealth in hym which hath not the feare of God and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them which can come vnto such perfection by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero as that seditious Catiline who was very eloquent But when they doe surmount Demosthenes may not wee rightly â—ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him comparing him vnto a flute which hath but the beak of bil the which is vnprofitable after that the necke is cut off What is there also in these héere but the tongue The which oftentimes hurteth many and profiteth fewe Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God and Iesus Christ his Sauiour and which confesseth him in his rude language and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation to be preferred before all these greate Poets Orators and Philosophers who are altogether ignoraunt and which doe serue but the flesh the world and Sathan Prince of the same Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him and yet worse For the Oxe knoweth his Lord and an Asse his Masters stall as sayth the Prophet the which those here which will bée counted for true Israelits Gods people and Christians wil not acknowledge nor serue hym dooing vnto him so much honour as the Oxe the Asse doe vnto their Masters How dare they esteeme themselues wyse beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God the which onely is the true knowledge for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse in comparison of which all other which are called sciences are but mennes opinions errours and lyinges excepte they haue this for a guyde It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them and meate for to make them haue an appetite sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe and the heauenly Manna to the which they preferre the garlicke onyons the flesh and fishes of Aegypt For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire shall but encrease their griefe the greater And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it they will not tast of it Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I and which can better helpe their disease There are others which differ but a little from these héere and which care not so muche of the language but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first that is that they delite not in reading any good matter graue and whiche toucheth Gods woorde and the health of their soules but vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience And therefore although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language touching the matters of our Religion yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes and can take no taste of them bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate and that they are to precious for them For the â—doriseraunt and sweete flowers smell not so swéete in the hogges noses as the myre and durte For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade â—ookes of bawdry and whoredome For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth and doe speake of earthlye matters and cannot comprehende the celestiall language bycause it is not naturall vnto them Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worlâ—e which doe serue but for seoffing and testing and which haue no other care and applye their studie but to please men and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges then salutary and to delyte the fleshe and the eares more then to edifie the conscience Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner then those whiche haue written before mée For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them not onely bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys kingedomes and Segmories to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD