aside the Commandments of God you hold the Tradition of men THO. GRANTHAM THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST The FIRST PART sheweth the SCRIPTURE and ROME to be in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in Controversies of RELIGION THe first of all Controversies is founded upon this Query What is the authoritative Judge of Controversies And indeed till there be some agreement in this point there can be no expectation of any fruitful issue of any Controversie Now all Controversies amongst the sons of men are reduceable to one of these two heads namely things humane or things divine things precisely pertaining to this life or things which only pertain to that which is to come concerns of a secular consideration or concerns of a religious consideration And according to the nature of these Controversies such ought the Judge for decision thereof to be Concerning this Judge of Religious Controversies there are divers opinions Some say that the Light or that of God in Every Man is this only infallible Judge of all Religious Controversies But if this be admitted a multitude of inconveniences must needs follow of which this is not the least That there can be no end of Controversies because if every man have this Judge of all Debates in himself and he aver that what he saith and doth is according to the voice of this Judge or that of God in him no man can take in hand to judge contrary thereunto without becoming the Judge's Judge and so violate the Rule proposed For this opinion refers not doubtful matters to that of God in some men or a select number of men but to that of God in every man There is another Opinion which saith That amongst all men which pretend to own Christ and challenge to themselves the title of his Church and yet do deny each other to have an interest in that title That amongst all such parties of the sons of men the only infallible and authoritative Judge of their Controversies about Religion is the LORD Himself as he speaketh by his Spirit in the holy Scriptures together with right Reason or thus which is all one The Apostles and Prophets as they speak in their holy Writings are the onely infallible authoritative Judge in these Controversies Yet three things are in this Opinion allowed first That the living voice of the Pastors with the Church in their respective Ages wherin they live are of great importance in order to the terminating strife in the Church as a Church Secondly That Records of Antiquity are of some usefulness for the resolving some Controversies and for the better discovery of some Errors yet not so absolutely necessary but that the Church may sufficiently resolve her Controversies without them Thirdly That there is a Judgment of Science to be allowed every man as touching all things which he chuseth or refuseth in matters of Religion to be used with moderation and discreet subjection And this is the Opinion to which for my part I do adhere There is another Opinion which saith That the Papal Church of Rome is the Supream Judge and Catholick Moderatrix of all Disputes in matters of Faith and that All are bound to hear and obey her Voice under pain of Damnation and that the Scriptures as taken in the second Opinion is not the Judge of Controversies Now this is the Opinion which at this time I am to examine which in much seriousness I humbly purpose to do and leave it to the sober consideration of all men And for the better discharge of this duty it is meet we should understand what the Papists mean by the Church of Rome And this I find that under that title they would involve the whole Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes until this present time at least all the Faithful since the time that Paul declares the Roman Church to have been famous as Rom. 1. 8. But this is the very thing denied by us for though we willingly grant that there was a very famous Church at Rome when Paul wrote his Epistle to them yet it followeth not that there is such a Church there now or that all that ever from that time to this have walked in the steps of true Faith must needs be supposed to have been Members of the Roman Church or rather of the Church of Rome so called especially since it was Papal So that in this Controversie they must be content to define the Church of Rome on this wise viz. All that in any Age since Christ was of the same Faith and Practice in things religious which is at this day found in the Papal Church of Rome and those only are the persons of whom the Papal Church of Rome doth consist And indeed this is as much as they can reasonably desire for if those holy men who lived in times past were of a Faith and Practice contradistinct to that which Rome hath now received Then may not the present Papal Church without wrong challenge them to be of their Church As for example Paul who bore witness for Christ at Rome and the Christians there in his dayes was of the Church of Christ at Rome yet we deny that they were any part of the Papal Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore defined as before I do deny to be the infallible authoritative Judge of all Controversies about matters of Faith or Religion And I do further say That the Scriptures and right Reason as laid down in the second opinion much more deserves to be received for this supream Judge of Controversies than the Papal Church of Rome and that there is not an other Umpire that can so effectually decide the Controversies of Religion which depend between such parties of men as lay claim to the Title of Christ's Church and yet deny each other to have an interest therein And how far forth the truth in this Point hath been evidenced in that pro and con Discourse so far as it relateth to the first of them which hath been occasioned by the writing of the Seven Queries I have before spoken of is here offered to the Consideration of all sober men that profess to own the Glorious Gospel of the blessed God and our Saviour Jesus Christ The first Query of the Seven was this propounded by the nameless Papist PAPIST Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God BAPTIST To which Question these ensuing Answers were given before I received the Adversaries last Paper which with the Answers thereunto I will transcribe verbatim I say the Answers were That the word Controversies being understood of such Controversies only as depend between those parties of men who deny each other to be the Church that then there is no other way whereby WE can resolve those Controversies but by the assistance of God's Spirit speaking to us through the undoubted Prophets and Apostles and Primitive Churches in the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures of Truth together with the help of right Reason in a way of subserviency to those divine directions Or if the word Controversies
do decide a Controversie by insisting upon the Scripture this is no more than my Answer included for I do not imagine that the Church must not pronounce what is contained in the Scripture but if she hath power to speak as from the Lord in these dayes when yet the Scripture saith no such thing then I profess my self short of understanding the power of the Church 2 Thess 3. 2. I only made use of this Text thus far that in Religious Controversies the Apostle gives Reason her place and therefore desired to be delivered from unreasonable men PAPIST ONce more you offer to justifie your Consequences drawn out of the five Texts But I ask once more To what purpose did you bring them was it not to prove what you had said in your Answer to my Query That the Scripture so we took right Reason along with us was sufficient to resolve all Controversies in matters of Faith No rational man can reade your first Paper but must think so and indeed otherwise you must have brought them to prove something that was not under debate which had been impertinent Must not that very Assertion of yours be the Consequence to these five Texts and them have I not reason to cry out that there never appeared such Monstrous Consequences But to avoid this inconvenience you fall into the other and will have some of your Texts brought to prove certain Propositions which you had not mentioned in your Answer Howsoever let us now see what you make of them Isa 8. 20. God's People are commanded to have recourse rather to the Law c. than to superstitious Oracles Ad Legem magis c. And they have a sign given them to convince such Oracles of falshood if they speak not according to the Word or Prophesie of Isaiah This is the clear sense of that place out of which you draw this strange consequence Ergo the Scripture c. is to resolve all matters of Faith A strange Consequence I say as will appear if we turn your Euthymeme into a Syllogism thus Recourse is to be had rather to the Law than to false Oracles whose falsehood appears if they speak not according to the Word or Prophecy of Isaiah But if this be so the Scriptures c. are to resolve all points of Faith Ergo c. What a prodigious minor have we here How doth it follow that because God's Word is to be more credited than superstitioas Oracles or that such Oracles are not to be credited when they speak against God's Word Therefore the Scriptures c. are to resolve all points of Faith I know you have not the word rather in your English Translation as we have in ours but the clear sense of the place bears as much 1 Tim. 6. 3. saith they are proud that teach contrary to the Doctrine of Christ Ergo you infer that the Scripture is to judge whose Doctrine is of pride This is as mad a conclusion as the last for when there is no clear Text of Scripture for either side as it often happens or Scripture brought on both sides How can the Scripture judge whether party be proud or how can it be judge of its own sense when it is alledged on both sides who both pretend to have the Spirit and Reason on their sides 1 John 4. 6. Those that hear not the Apostles are not of God nor have his Spirit Ergo say you the Scripture resolves who are religious Doth it follow out of this Text that when parties contend that they hear the Apostles the Scripture can resolve the difference and pronounce who are religious c. Not at all 2 John 9. 10. Gives Judgement against those that follow not Christ's Doctrine You infer ergo the Scripture must try whether men bring this Doctrine Strange Logick for unless your Text proved that the Scripture containes all Christ's Doctrine which it doth not your Consequence must needs be faulty 2 Thess 3. 2. you say proves that Reason is some wayes necessary to decide Controversies in Religion I will not examine the goodness of this Consequence but I am sure you need not have brought Scripture to have proved so manifest a Truth which cannot be denied by any but such as pretend to have so much of the Spirit that me-thinks they should have little need of the use of Reason BAPTIST Concerning my five Texts and what I infer thence I need not speak much here yet it is worthy observing how apparantly you miss the clear sense of Isa 8. 20. whilst you restrain the relatives this word to the Word or Prophecy of Isaiah whereas it is as clear as the Sun at noon that they ought to be referr'd to the Law and Testimony for thus I read To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to This Word Having thus missed the sence of the Text then in all that you say further you discover a taunting spirit endeavouring to bespatter me with what dirt comes next to hand I did not quote any one of the five Texts as taking it singly to prove the whole Assertion and therefore you did injure my understanding to argue from them apart as brought to prove the whole Position but I brought them to prove such Propositions as being laid together do amount to so much as my Assertion as I explicate it doth contain For the first four Texts do all of them shew how God's People ought to try and defend themselves against such as oppose the Church and Truth of God as I shewed in my Rejoynder and the fifth gives Reason her place in Religious Contests But there is not one of the Arguments which I formed from my five Quotations but you deprave and abuse it by both adding terms of your own and omitting mine yea sometimes whole sentenoes and when you have so done you flout at the Conclusions Which dealing is too bad for a sober Disputant It were a very easie thing to turn all your Objections here against the Scripture as insufficient to resolve differences in Religion upon the Church as therefore insufficient to resolve them For whereas you say That when both Parties pretend to have Scripture and Reason on their sides then the Scripture cannot decide the Controversie Might not I as well say when both parties pretend to have the Church on their side as that 's the case between us the Church then cannot decide our difference Again where you seem to say that when both parties contending do say they hear the Apostles that then the Apostles cannot as they speak in the Scriptures decide the Controversie Hath not this the same force against the Church when both parties contend they hear the Church See how you can defend your self and I doubt not but therein you will defend my Arguments for the Scripture And because you do cry up the Fathers c. for so clear a way to decide all our Controversies I will therefore shew you that they do clearly
I urged that of necessity the Scripture must decide all our Controversies as aforesaid because as things now stand the Word or Scripture is antecedent to the Church so that inasmuch as it is impossible to find the Church without the Scripture it supposes clearly that the Scripture must be found before the Church and so if the Scripture must of necessity resolve this great Controversie about the Church it consequently followeth that they must resolve all Controversies because all Religious Controversies are involved in this one general Query Where is and who are the Church Something here which the Adversary doth further write is omitted because it may be more fitly taken notice of afterward PAPIST I had reason to take notice of your general saying that the Word was antecedent to Faith and the Church since there was a Church and consequently Faith before the Scripture was written Now it seems you meant not the Scripture by the Word but I know not what Word which was afterward committed to writing It is past my understanding what Word you mean for since it cannot be Verbum Scriptum before it be written It must either be Verbum Traditum and I suppose you will not allow that or Verbum Dei Patris and that cannot be the Word you speak of as committed to writing BAPTIST By that Word which was antecedent to Faith and the Church as it relates to the Church under the Patriarchs c. I mean the Word which God spake to them and by them at sundry times and in divers manners And if you take that term Word to relate to the Church of Christ in its plantation then I speak partly of the written Word of God and partly of that which was at that time only spoken by word of mouth by Christ and his faithful Stewards and if you will call this part of the word Verbum Traditum I say that is the Word I speak of And I do also say this Word was afterward committed to writing which Word together with the former I mean that of the Prophets is that whereon the Church as now considered is founded by which she must be known And in this sense I say the holy Scripture is now antecedent to the Church And therefore well spake that Learned person Chrysostom when he forewarned the sons of men that if they took heed to any thing in order to their knowing the Church in the latter times beside Scripture they would fall headlong into the Abomination which maketh desolate and not be able to know the true Church BAPTIST I Think it meet here to give the Reader some account of my Judgment of these five Texts which I brought to justifie my Answer to the first Query which with my Answer was as followeth Qu. Whether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God Answ The Spirit speaking in the Scripture together with right Reason as truely subservient is that whereby we are to resolve all Differences c. For proof I cited Isa 8. 20. 1 Tim. 6. 3. 1 Joh. 4. 6. 2 Joh. 9 10. 2 Thess 3. 2. where note that under the term We ought not to be understood any person but the Papists on the one part and the Baptists on the other who do deny each other to be the Church of Christ Now that the Church is to defend her self against all that come to spoil her of her Church-state by the Scripture onely as that which includes her whole strength is that which I brought these Texts to prove And first for that place Isa 8. 20. The Prophet foreseeing a Judgment coming upon Israel even such as God would hide himself from them and the Law and Testimony should be like a Book bound and sealed up as ver 16 17. compared with ch 29. 11 12. The Prophet likewise foreseeing that when God should hide his face Israel would enquire of Wisards and such as spoke from familiar Spirits as Saul did when under the like judgment as 1 Sam. 28. 6 7 8. wherefore the Prophet that he might warn the remnant of faithful ones whom he foresaw would be as wonders amongst the rest commands them as from the Lord that WHEN men should say unto them Seek unto such as have familiar spirits c. to go to the LAW as being their way to go to God himself for saith he Should not a People seek unto their God To the LAW c. and certifies them that by that they should know Deceivers for saith he If they speak not according to This Word the Law there is no light in them So that I infer thus much that when such as are enemies to the Church come to invade the Saints with their deceit the only infallible way to know them to be Deceivers is to enquire of God's Law and Testimony I know that Israel had the Testimony or standing Oracle beside the written Law And the Church now hath the new Testimony open in the Church beside the Law Prophets hereunto I say the Church is only to apply her self as aforesaid to find out the deceit of those who would rob her of that inheritance which she holdeth by the deeds of God's Law and Promises contained in Scripture by these as the only infallible Rule she knows those to be lyars who say they are the Church and are not And to this agrees the next three Scriptures the very reading whereof sheweth that when the Controversie is between the Church and such as pretend falsly to that Title the onely infallible means to refel them is the Spirit speaking in Scripture c. For thus saith the first of them If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholsom words even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Doctrine that is according to Godliness he is proud knowing nothing but doting about questions c. Thus saith the second He that knoweth God heareth us he that is not of God heareth not us Hereby know we the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of Error The third saith thus Whoso transgresseth and abideth not in the Doctrin of Christ hath not God He that abideth in the Doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son If there come any unto you and bring not this Doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him God-speed From these Texts it appears that unless the Papists can produce something which they can infallibly prove to be Christ's Doctrine beside what is contained in holy Scripture or that the Apostles may be heard as infallibly by some other means as by the holy Scripture or that the Saints received some Doctrine for Christs that is not contained in the Scripture I say unless they can infallibly shew something of this nature my Answer is good But if they can produce any other thing of such authority then I acknowledge my Answer to be deficient Howbeit if any man or the Church her self
that priviledge which Israel under the Law was allowed and yet they are as strictly bound to bring up their Children in the admonition of the Lord which they cannot do unless they have the Law in their heart that so they may talk of it to their Children But surely those that will not let the Law come within the sight of our eyes have no mind it should ever come in our hearts So then they labour to keep us in the dark What can they say against mens reading the Scripture which hath not the same force against the hearing of it preached Did not some conceive as gross opinions concerning Christ's saying men must eat his flesh as some have by reading them The Jews thought they were so to be understood as that they might eat his real flesh and that was not a greater nor a lesse Error than is found in the Papists who read the same word It is doubtless a shrewd sign that those who will not suffer us to see the Law of God do not intend that we shall hear very much of it peradventure such Points as talk of Tythes c. Yea it is evident that they intend not to let us hear much that shall profit us for they have devised that the very Prayers and Services of their Church be said and sung in a tongue which the People understand not Yea they tell us That it is enough for the People to understand that the Prayer is made to call upon God in all our desires and more than this is not necessary they say So that the poor People in the Papacy know not what are the things desired only they are told The Prayer is made to God in all that is therein desired Are not these People kept in darkness But saith Paul How should the unlearned say Amen 1 Cor. 14. That which is most strange is That the Papists should deliver this dark Doctrine from 1 Cor. 14. then which no Scripture more requireth an understanding in those that pray and in those that joyn with them nor doth any Scripture more clearly shew us to how little purpose it is to perform any Service in the Church in an unknown tongue Read the Chapter saith Paul If I come unto you speaking with tongues what shall I profit you but in the Church I will speak five words with my understanding that I may instruct others also rather than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue These are Paul's words as the Papists themselves translate them Another way whereby they keep men in darkness is this They cumber mens minds with such a MULTITUDE of Ceremonies and Repetitions in their Prayers that the mind is sufficiently charged to remember how many times over they must say some two or three words nay it 's evident this is no wrong witness their Beads which serve to supply the defect of their memories As I remember there is not less than fifty Orations and Postulations c. which the Priest is to make and act before the Bread be Consecrated when they say Mass and the like doings they have in the most of their Services which I can more desire the Lord would deliver them from than mention The Sixth Reason The present Papal Church is generally if not only at this day gathered of persons unregenerate or not new born as the Scriptures do require new-birth in that case Therefore she is not the Church of Christ The Sixth Reason maintained 1. THe Scripture saith That except a man or any one be born again SO as to be like the winde THAT BLOWETH and that bloweth in such sort as the sound thereof IS HEARD he cannot enter into the Kingdom or Church of God But the many millions of Infants whereof the Papal Church consists mostly if not only in respect of her Members Initiation are not thus regenerate So that the Papal Church is gathered generally of such Persons as are not so regenerate as Persons ought to be and must of necessity be before they be admitted into the Church of Christ The Seed of the Woman or Gospel-Church are all such as have the Faith of Jesus and keep the Commandments of God at least in Profession for that is the thing that is absolutely necessary in order to any Person 's admission into the Church of Christ John 3. 5 6. 2 Cor. 5. 16 17. Rev. 12. ult Gal. 3. 26 27 28. 2. All the Children of the new Covenant or Church of Christ do DIFFER from the Church under Moses SO as that they each individual do so know the Lord as that they need not in some sort teach one another saying Know the Lord Heb. 8. Jer. 31. But either all or the generality of the Papal Church differ nothing from the Church under Moses in respect of their KNOWLEDGE when admitted into their Church Being such as are not capable of the first or least degree of the knowledge of him 3. There appears no more sign of Regeneration or new-Birth in the Infants or Members of the Papal Church at their admission than there appears in such as the Papists say are not regenerate Now where the Spirit of regeneration is it is not without some demonstrable operation for saith Christ The wind bloweth c. and thou hearest the sound thereof c. SO IS EVERY One that is born of the Spirit So that I conclude That the Infants whom the Papists say they baptize are not born of the Spirit unless they can give some demonstrative sign of it 4. There can be no Regeneration in an ordinary way without preaching the Doctrine of Christ Rom. 10. But the Papal Church is generally if not only gathered without the Word preached in order to the regeneration of the Members before their admission Therefore they are not regenerate in an ordinary way And if they have an extraordinary regeneration let them shew it The Seventh Reason The present Papal Church of Rome maintaineth the Doctrine of Devils and that so violently as that they punish the Non-observation thereof with Excommunication and Death Therefore she is not the Church of Christ This Argument maintained THis Reason or Argument may seem to be harshly laid down yet if it be true there is necessity to propound it And for the truth of it I desire you weigh what followeth 1. To forbid Marriage and to command to abstain from Meats which God hath created to be received of such as believe and obey the Truth this is the doctrine of Devils But it is well known that the Papists do forbid the whole Calling of their Clergy to Marry and thousands beside of those that live in their Monasteries and Nunries c. and this under pain of Cursing and Death You shall hear them speak their own words wherein they do not only prohibit Marriage for ever to such as enter into the Ministry but if any be married and afterwards come into the Ministry they wholly deprive such of the enjoyment of their Yoke-fellows Thus they speak The