desires are sundrie one mooued more in one thing another in another thing some come more fitter to pray for this and some for that It is most certaine that neither the prescipt forme nor the preacher can see into these seuerall estates of mens mindes consciences or to the desires which they are most fit and prepared to expresse neither is that so much to bee regarded seeing that which should be fittest for one part should not be so fit for another but they must euery one frame himselfe to pray for al things which the assemblie doth pray for which are necessarie to be praied for at al times and of all persons Shall any man say I am not prepared to begge these things therefore they be not fit for me Let him not be so wicked but stirre vp himselfe rather to begge them with the congregation Shall any be so foolish as to say wee knowe these things before I am not mooued with them men for the most part do but repeat them of custome Nay rather let him striue against such impietie and say the things are not any thing the lesse precious which wee craue because wee heare them often or knowe them before or that many abuse them and therefore we indeuour to begge them earnestlie with all faithful ones in the assemblie seeing they bee such as are needfull to be praied for In the rest I leaue the reader to compare his booke with my former The last Argument The prayers of such Ministers and people as stand vnder a false gouernment are not acceptable Those Ministers which stand subiect to the Bishops and their Courts are subiect to a false gouernment and to Antichrist I did referre the answere of these to the third and fourth accusation but yet I did take some exception as my booke sheweth The Brownist in replying here is in great distemper I will let all his words passe and come to the matter I alleaged out of the Epistle to the Romanes Chapt. 7. that S. Paule was held in some bondage and therefore that Ierusalem from aboue is not in this world so free but that she and all her children are in some spirituall bondage At this he did crie out of Atheisme carnal Libertinisme affirming that S. Paule neuer continued captiue vnto sinne after regeneration neither gaue place vnto euill thoughts Where I haue iustly charged him with very foule matter which now labouring to wash away he doth bemire himselfe First he crieth out of wrong in diuers things without any cause Such as do touch the question of gouernment and the blasts he bloweth that way I doo here omit because his fellowes doo make replie as he mentioneth vnto those things and I must then answere Onely I deale with him now touching the place to the Romanes He willeth if I haue any common honestie to let his former answer be seene I promise ye it will be small to your credite and honestie let whosoeuer see it seeing ye doo in shameles manner crie out of wresting and I knowe not what Against my reason out of the words of Saint Paule denie if ye haue the forehead these to bee your words And now say you that Scripture which the Apostle hath set downe in the anguish of his soule concerning the inward strife of the flesh and the spirit you shamefully peruert to your owne condemnation except you repent for Paule neuer continued captiue vnto sinne after his regeneration neither gaue place vnto euill thoughts Paule speaketh there of the vnperfectnes of his owne righteousnes which maketh the lawe deadlie vnto him I will thinke you a fleshlie Libertine if you recāt not this doctrine What Atheist would thus haue defended his owne grosse sinnes Thus farre go your wordes and now let such as haue knowledge iudge what wrong I haue done ye Let them looke vpon that which I haue published and see whether I haue wrested your words or set downe any vnsound poynt of doctrine as you would yet accuse me and doo importunatelie crie out but now your words are in the light and your answere also which ye cannot vse such shifts to excuse You lay open the disagreement betweene you and me First you cannot agree to this that the regenerate may be sayd to stand in any bondage to sinne You cannot conclude against it but bring in another saying and so draw a conclusion And that is how I also affirme that one standing in bondage to open knowne sinne may in that estate bee accepted and communicated with as the seruant of Christ by outward profession both at one instant which is as to say wee may bee to mans sight the seruant of the diuell and the seruant of Christ both at one time by outward profession So none should bee excommunicate none without the world and the Church light and darknes Christ and Belial should bee mingled together Well then I aske this question both of your selfe and of your fellowes whether there be any one of ye that can stand foorth and say I see no sinne in my selfe but so soone as I haue espied I ouercome and am not at all led by it Tell me further whether ye haue not this that ye may say there is euil alwayes in ye which you cannot be rid of and that doth holde ye fast and presse ye Do ye not leaue the good vndone and commit euill and such euil as is alwayes present in ye Doe not ye find great sinnes that ye stand vnder as not able to come out of If any Brownist shall deny he is such or in this estate he can be but a proud hypocrite If yee confesse it what doe you but confesse some bondage Let me aske ye further is there any of ye which dare stand foorth and say I am not a sinner in the sight of men I stand not holden vnder any outward sinne the Brownist must aunswere these questions for he holdeth that men can not outwardly appeare sinners and be the seruants of Christ at one instant What beastly geare is this There is sinne that appeareth in the best men at al times in gesture in words in deedes in negligence in wants yea a thousand waies who is able to indure y e trial of Gods law euen in that which outwardly doth appeare in him for an howre And will yee cast foorth all in whome there appeareth sinne that he dooth abide in The grose open sinners I confesse which contemne and giue offence are to be cast foorth but are those which abide within at any time free from open sinne couetousnesse is a foule sinne so is pride selfe loue and wrath Doe all Brownists so fully shine in brightnes before men that in none of these nor any other they can bee discerned to be sinners Doth all vertue shine foorth in them And touching that which I charged you withall looke better now vpon your owne speech If there bee any modestie in ye it will be hard for ye to deny but that I haue layde no
are the grosser if we may reason from that which they holde for if this were true which the Brownists affirme most stiffelie to bee true as the Donatists did before them that where an open wicked man dooth administer the Sacraments they be no Sacraments at all And if this also were as true which they both haue taken vpon them to iustifie the Donatists of olde saying they had no true Sacraments in the Churches and the Brownists that we haue none now It must needes be graunted that the Donatists did the better of both in baptising those which were not before baptized for he that is not baptized ought to be baptized And as no vncircumcised might eate of the Passeouer but was to be cut off from the people of GOD so no vnbaptized is to eate at the table of the Lord. How grosse are the Brownists which take it as a thing vndoubted that we haue no Sacraments and must needes thereupon be assured that they themselues were neuer baptized and so can be but as an heape of vncircumcised and yet seeke not to haue the Sacrament I would haue them answer this question whether a man that knoweth he was neuer baptized can be saued if he seeke not to bee baptized when hee may come by it Let no man imagine that I speake this as though the Brownists should doo well in rebaptizing for their former ground is false wicked and hereticall when they say it is no Sacrament that hath been administred by open offenders and that we haue no Sacraments But if that were true which they hold they should doo much better I will not say to rebaptize but to baptize such as were not before baptized Now where it is generallie obiected that the Donatists perhaps held diuers things which the Brownists doo not I answere that the Donatists indeede held somewhat which the Brownists doo not and the Brownists hold something which they did not For some of the Donatists did cast themselues downe from high places and into the fire accounting them holie Martyres that so died and others defended their doing For thus saith Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop in his Epistle An ista persecutio est quae tot milliq innocentum martyrum arctauit ad mortem Christiani enim secundum euangelium spiritu prompti sed carne infirmi à sacrilega contaminatione caminorum reperto compendio suas animas rapuerunt imitati presbyteri Raziae in Machabaeorum libris exemplum nec frustra timentes quisquis enim eorum manus inciderit non euasit sed quantum velint faciant quod certum est dei esse non possunt qui faciunt contra Deum Whether is that a persecution saith he which hath pent vp in a straight so many thousands of innocent martyres euen vnto death For Christians according to the Gospell being readie in spirit but weake in the flesh finding out a compendious way of their chimneyes haue deliuered their soules from the sacrilegious pollution imitating the example of olde Razia in the bookes of the Machabees not fearing without cause for whosoeuer falleth into their hands doth not escape but let them doo as much as they will that which is certaine they cannot be of God which doo against God booke 2. against Gaudent Chapt. 20. Augustine sheweth that Gaudentius meaning was not that they burnt themselues in their chimneys for feare of persecution vnto death for the ciuill Magistrate did not so persecute them hauing made a lawe against them for banishment but not for death as Augustine sheweth book 2. against Gaudentius chap. 11. Mitiora in vos constituit Imperator propter mansuetudinem Christianam exilium vobis voluit inferre non mortem The Emperour hath decreed more gentle thinges against yee through Christian mildnes he would lay banishment vppon ye and not death But his meaning is that such as fell into their hands were drawne to ioyne with them in worship which he calleth the sacriligious defilement And therfore doth abuse that place of the Gospell to colour such horrible murthering of themselues the spirit is readie but the flesh is weake for fearing least through weakenes they should yéeld to ioyne with the Churches they rather chose to kill themselues This the Brownists doo not but they condemne read prayer or praying after any prescript forme of words which the Donatists did not as may bee gathered by these words of Petilian Si pâ—ecem domino facitis aut funditis orationem nihil vobis penitus prodest Vestras enim debiles preces cruenta vestra conscientia vacuat quia dominus deus puram magis conscientiam quam preces exaudit domino Christe dicente non omnis qui dicit mihi domine domine intrabit in regnum coelorum sed is qui facit voluntatem patris mei qui est in coelis Voluntas dei vtique bona est nam ideo in sacra oratione sic petimus fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo in terra If ye make prayer to the Lord saith the Donatist or powre foorth supplication it doth profite ye nothing at al for your bloudie conscience doth make your weake prayers of none effect because the Lord God doth rather heare a pure conscience than prayers the Lord Iesus saying that not euerie one that saith vnto me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heauen but he that doth the will of my father which is in heauen The will of God is good for therefore in the holie prayer we pray thus thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen Thus we see that the Donatist denying that any praied but they sheweth with all that praying they vsed the Lords prayer But what doo I stand to seeke differences betwéen them which can hardlie be found whereas indeede whole bookes doo set foorth at large their agreement I will therefore proceede further to declare in particulars touching the power of Christian Princes in reforming the Church in establishing religion and in punishing heretickes schismatickes and disturbers and in compelling their subiects to the obedience of the trueth or to imbrace the true worship how iniuriouslie Browne hath dealt in his booke and the Brownists that haue written since I haue layd open in my former booke let their sayings be throughlie perused and now shall ye seee a little whether they be not the verie naturall children of the Donatists in this poynt also Thus writeth Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop Per opificem rerum omnium dominum Christum omnipotens deus frabricatum hominem vt deo similem libero demisit arbitrio Scriptum est enim fecit deus hominem dimisit eum in manu arbitrij sui Quid mihi nunc humano imperio eripitur quod largitus est deus Aduerte vir summe quanta in deum sacrilegia perpetrentur vt quod ille tribuit auferat humana praesumptio pro deo se inaniter iactet magna iniuria dei si ab hominibus defendatur Quid de deo aestimat qui eum violentia
compell men but rather inuite them Quodsi cogi per legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisser vosipsi miseri a nobis ad sidem purissimam cogi debuistis Sed absit absit a nostra conscientia vt ad nostram sidem aliquem compellamus If it were lawfull saith this Donatist that anie should by the Lawe be compelled yea euen vnto good things you wretches ought to bee compelled by vs to the most pure faith but farre be it farre be it from our conscience that we should compell anie vnto our faith chapt 83. Quid vobis est cum regibus seculi quos nunquam Christianit as nisi inuidos sensit What haue you to doo with the Kings of the Worlde which the Christianitie hath neuer felt but enuious against it Chapter 92. Compare now the doctrine of our Brownists and their sayings with these former of the Donatists and see if there bee anie difference They say Princes are not to make Lawes for Church matters Princes are not to reforme the Church by their authoritie Princes are not to compell their subiects to the true worship of God by penalties If Princes pleasures are to be attended where is the persecution wee speake of None of the godlie Kings of Iudea durit compell anie to the couenant The people of Christs Kingdome are spontanes such as come of their owne free accord c. It were too long and tedious to set foorth all the outcries of the Donatists their glorying in suffering persecutions for the trueth their accusations against the pastors of Christs Churche and the Princes while they sought to restraine their furie the one by Gods word the other by lawes that they persecuted and therefore could not be the true Church which as they say is persecuted but neuer persecuteth reade the epistle of Parmenian of Petilian and of Cresconius The Brownists are not behinde them an intch in this matter but crie out as fast of Antichristian persecutors boasting of their patience and sufferings calling themselues the persecuted remnant the poore afflicted c. Aug. answereth those Donatists at large I will recite but a little Cum phreneticus medicum vexet medicus phreneticum liget aut ambo inuicem persequuntur aut si persecutio quae malo sit non est non vtiq persequitur medicus phreneticum sed phreneticus medicum When the man that is in phrensie dooth vex the phisitian and the phisitian dooth binde him that is in phrensie either both doo persecute each other or else if that bee not a persecution which is done to the euill then verelie the phisitian dooth not persecute the phrantick or mad man but the phrantick or mad man dooth persecute the phisitian Against Cresconius Booke 4. Chapter 51. his application is that the penall Lawes of the Princes were as the bands of the Phisitian to binde the Phrensie and furious outrage of the Donatists And whereas they boasted of patience and woulde compell none He answereth that because they bee not able to resist so manie nations which were Catholike they gloried of patience that they compelled none to their part Hee then addeth Isto modo miluus cum pullos rapere territus non potuerit co lūbum se nominet After the same sort the Puttocke when he is fraid and can not snatch away the chickens may name himselfe a Doue For he doth demaund of them what they haue not done which they were able When Iulian the Apostata being Emperour enuying the peace of Christ shewed them fauour and graunted to them Churches what slaughters they committed Likewise he sheweth in many places what reuell their circumcellions made which in companies walking with clubbes and staues did spoile and beate such as light into their handes vsing moreouer a sauage crueltie in putting vineger and lime into mens eies when they had beaten them And verely what is it which men of excéeding intemperate heate will not doe if it bee once in their power against such as they shall iudge to bee but as vile Idolaters and persecutors of Christes truth The impatient heate of most Brownistes is not vnknowē but when the Kites for feare can not snatch vp the Chickens must professe the mekenes of Doues as to say weare Christes poore afflicted seruants we be meeke and patient we beare the crosse Where it is taught that priuate men are authorised to deale and furie aboundeth which things are among the Brownistes who is able to expresse the tragedies that would ensue if power were not wanting in thē the Princes may not stoppe their course and who shall then resist The Donatists abusing the scriptures in their plentifull allegations and finding that their grosenesse was detected much by the skill of artes found fault that any thing should be scanned by the rules of Logike The Brownistes are euen with them if not beyond In his first booke against Cresconius Chap. 14 Augustine reporteth the wordes of that Donatist thus Vestros Episcopos laudas quod nobiscum velut dialecticis nolint habere sermonem Thou doest commend your Bishoppes that they refuse to haue speech or conference with vs as being Logicians He answereth at large in shewing what Logicke is and the worthie and necessarie vse thereof in discussing matters of religion Browne in the preface of his booke which hee saith sheweth the life and manners of Christians calleth them sophisticall diuines which deale by the rules of Logicke The Brownistes with whome I deale charge the students of the Vniuersities as trained vp in vaine and curious Artes. And what other cause shall euer be shewed of so barbarous an errour but that they would not haue their matters tried by the rules which make manifest which is truth and which is falsehoode Thus haue I briefely laide open that the whole Donatisme is maintained by the Brownistes and therefore I haue rightly termed them the Donatistes of England An answere to Master Greenewood touching read prayer MAster Greenewood in the preface of his booke dooth shew that the reasons spread abroade in writing against read praier were his which I did not knowe before now and therefore bee taketh vpon him the defence of them He would seeme to haue found out such a deapth of spirituall wisdome touching the holie exercise of prayer and so reprooueth the grosenes of this age that wee must esteeme him for the aboundance of spirit as an other Montanus For whereas hee seemeth to charge this age onelie as grosse in this poynt in verie deede he accuseth all ages all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue beene since the Apostles so that in the gifts of the spirite he excelleth all Hee saieth hee could yet neuer see it set downe which is the true praier that onelie pleaseth God It is a strange thing hee hath neuer heard that whosoeuer asketh in faith whether it be with prescript forme or otherwise it is the onelie true praier that pleaseth God Hee saieth I haue flien vpon him with bitternesse of spirite and
carnall wisdome loding him and the faithfull with opprobrious titles It is to no purpose that I should answer againe with words but when men shall once see throughlie into the fowlnes and dangers of Browâ—isme and what filthie geare they spread abroade they will thâ—nke it requisite and necessarie to call a spade a spade Donatisme must bee called Donatisme schisme must bee called schisme and heresies and fantasies must haue their due titles And now touching the defence he maketh it is nothing but certaine ragges which he peeceth together to couer his nakednes which also must be plucked from him It seemeth he doth trust to the ignorance or rashnes of some which either cannot or will not examine things aright God is a spirit to be worshipped in spirit I did do coÌ„fesse y t this scripture doth cut downe all carnall worship as disagreeing from the nature of God therefore may most fitlie be alleaged against such as shall maintaine that the verie bodilie action in reading is the worship of God But it is friuolous to applie it against praying after a prescript forme seeing a man may vpon a booke pray reading or after a prescript forme with sighes and groanes which procéed of faith Master Greenewood termeth this a bodilie distinction Doubtles if it be a bodilie distinction to affirme that the verie bodilie action of reading a prayer is not the worship of God which we maintaine against the Papists in their lippe labour I knowe not what Master Greenwood will allowe to bee spirituall What manner of spirit is his But now that he will put away all my distinctions by his affirming still for those bee his wordes and what Euen the whole matter in question betweene vs who cannot see what a valiant champion he is for how falselie he saith he hath prooued shall appeare Then hauing stoutlie affirmed that which is in question he saith and yet say you to applie this scripture thus against read prayer is friuolous How commeth in this word yet Doth it follow that I do not well in saying so notwithstanding you affirme the contrarie but you haue a reason of great force which is in these words I appeale to all mens consciences for the waight thereof Shall the consciences of all men bee made iudge whether that scripture bee rightlie applied Nay I appeale from the consciences of the Brownists Now in the next words where I affirmed that a man may pray by the Spirite of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke or when he prayeth after a prescript forme and therefore the application of that scripture is friuolous his shiftes are as slender For touching this clause that I say or after a prescript forme he saith I goe about to alter the question at the first steppe For as much as all our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his disciples and all posterities A great peece of work By vttering after a prescript forme I meane when a man hath learned a prayer eyther of the scripture or framed from thence and can vtter it without the booke as it is written And whereas it can not be denied but that many do pray feruentlie with sighes and grones and teares which reade the prayer vpon the booke or haue it as we vse to say by hart He answereth that I begge the question If a man do proue the cause by the effects which I doe heere it is no begging of the question but a firme proofe Where any thing is burnt there hath beene fire Where there be sighes and grones in prayer with inward comfort there is faith there is Gods spirit but these are in some that reade their prayers vpon the booke or vse prescript forme Maister Greenewood thinketh he hath disputed subtillie and couered himselfe when he can say ye alter the question ye begge the question ye assume the question Nowe touching the defence of his reasons he brought If those sighes and grones saith he were of faith that would minister matter of prayer without a booke This reason as I sayd is by connection drawne from the force and effect of faith and to make it strong and good I said these two things must be added y t faith needeth no outward helpe to minister matter of prayer and that it can not stande or be ioyned with any outward helpes which I said are both hereticall He saith he will lay the wordes againe before me if peraduenture I may haue grace to call my selfe backe I looke vpon them againe and although I did not two yeares as you vainely imagine nor yet two daies consider of that one saying yet can I not call my selfe back vnlesse I be conuinced with the light of truth and that ye say I shal be and will so confirme your sayings by scriptures that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gainesay or resist If the sighes and grones were of faith that would minister matter without a booke for the scripture ye affirme teacheth euerie where that in praying the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier through the scripture He hath seÌ„t into our harts the spirit of his sonne crying Abba father wee beleeue therefore we speake From hence now Maister Greenewood concludeth that I haue erred and from an idle braine godles heart haue coined those heresies because I constraine the proposition of the present action in praying vnto a generall sentence of all times and actions This is the summe of your answere that before prayer there neede helpes and outward meanes but in the present action of prayer onely the spirit doth helpe let vs see howe true this is and how it dooth excuse yee from those hereticall opinions which ye goe about to wipe away with this distinction First whereas yee say that in the verie time and action of prayer it is the spirit alone without any outward means because the scripture saith God hath sent into our heartes the spirit of his sonne crying abba Father I answere that howsoeuer the scripture doth extoll or magnifie outwarde helpes and meanes yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them or when the scripture will set foorth the efficacie and worke to be his alone they are either not meÌ„tioned or else if they be meÌ„tioned so cast down as if they were nothing God buildeth his Church by the ministerie of men yet he saith Paule planteth Appollo watereth but God giueth y e increase So that neither he which plaÌ„teth is any thing nor he that watreth but God that giueth the increase 1. Co. 3. And therfore to gather froÌ„ those sentences of scripture where the spirit of God is only mentioned to work praier because the work is his alone y t there neede or there may be no outward helps or meanes in the verie instant and action of praying is farre awrie For I would haue master
Rome is the true Church for that hath many spots I answere that we doo not take it that the spots doo make it a true Church but because there bee onely spottes and not fundamentall errors The foolish cauill here is that I assume that which I should prooue Doo I not prooue it by answering the vile and shameles slaunders of yours when ye affirme euerie spot in our Churches to be blasphemies and heresies and abominations and Egyptian sores You must prooue these your slaunders true and I will cease Now we come to the arguments which were set down at the first No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publike assemblies all read prayer is Apocripha Here you say I haue nothing to vtter and yet oppose against both proposicions to royle the doctrine with my feete least others should drink of it I sayd your proposition is false because the exposition of the scriptures by the preacher and the prayers of the preacher are not canonicall which your proposition doth exclude Your replie is that the Sermons and prayers of of the Preacher be the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces which ye mention in your proposition and so neither Canonicall nor Apocripha and so not excluded Touching the Paraphrase vpon the Psalmes in meeter I holde not Canonicall in some respects If you banish all writings that be not Canonicall then ye banish then Your answere is that it I will affirme them to be Apocrypha as ye say I cannot but doe you will prooue they are not to be brought into the publike assemblies Your proofes doe follow First no mans writings are giuen by the testimonie of Gods spirit whome alone we are to heare No mans writings are without errors and imperfections The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets If we might bring in mens writings then al mens writings which are agreeable to Gods word No mans writings carie that maiestie that the pen of the holy ghost No mans writings are authentike confirmed by signes and wonders The scripture is all sufficient al men must walk by that one rule To think there were not rules enough prescribed by the Lorde for his house is blasphemous and papisticall Then ye say the gifts to prophesie are not Apocryphall and so ye conclude your proposition that onely Gods word and the liuely graces of his holy spirite are to be offered vp vnto him in the publike assemblies Then touching your assumption I sayd I see not how our speech to God should be called Apocrypha Ye replie y t it answereth not you which do not holde an other mans writing to be our speech vnto God Finally because I said that Apocrypha is that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs yee say I haue ouerthrowen my selfe and cast out all read prayer in as much as I deny them to be Canonicall And so affirming that I haue not in both writings made one direct answer to this most firme proposition Onely the Canonicall scriptures and liuely voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the publike assemblies for doctrine and prayers But mens writings are neither Canonicall nor the liuely voice of Gods owne graces Now master Greenwood hauing thus played the man in erecting as he supposeth so mighty a piller that cannot be shaken could content himself to go no further I might end here saith hee with this vaine man considering the whole matter is proued against him And all that solloweth but repetitions of the same cauills but that I must cleare my selfe of his vnconcionable slaunders Hee â—â—â—â—mphing thus fully what shall I doe now I aunswere first that hee is much deceiued and would deceiue others as it is written The deceiuers shall wax worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued For like as one that among many Apples doth hide and sell one Crab so he among many true principles doth bring in one false conclusion which deceiueth his Schollers For if he did reason thus wee must heare onely the voice of Gods spirite therefore all things in the Church are to be tried by the voice of the spirit No mans writings are without errors and imperfections therefore meÌ„ cannot ground vpon them any further than they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore our faith is to rest no further vpon the sayings and writings of men than they be prooued by the doctrine of the Apostles Prophets he should conclude a truth which is vnanswerable But now where master Greenwoods conclusioÌ„ is after this sorte therefore nothing but the Canonicall scriptures and the liuely voice of Gods graces is to bee brought into the publike assemblies he concludeth falsely as shall appeare For if nothing but the perfect rule it selfe is to bee brought into the Church If nothing done by man which hath errors in it is to haue place in the assemblies If nothing but eyther such or that which is the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces is to be vttered in the congregation then must bee tast foorth not onely al written prayers but also y e whole bible vnles it be in y e Hebrew Greeke with the Sermons and praiers of the Pastors For there is no translation of the Bible without errors and the bookes are thus farre mans writing respecting onely the translation And furthermore we decide not controuersies by any translation of the Bible but by the authentike copies of the Hebrew and Greek in one of which the olde testament is set downe by the Prophets in the other the new testameÌ„t by the Apostles So that your conclusion doth not shut out onely the Psalmes in méeter but the whole scriptures vnles you will be so bolde as to say that translations be without errors and so the perfect rule And now touching the second part will Master Greenwood bee so vnwise as to affirme that the errours in the Sermons and in the prayers of the Pastors bee the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces He will assuredly denie it for the graces of GOD all simple men know bring not foorth errors Then let him marke his conclusion no mens writings are without errours and imperfections therefore no mens writings are to be brought into the publike assemblie is not this conclusion as strong no translations of the Bible no Psalmes in meeter no Sermons nor Prayers of the Pastors are without errors and imperfections therfore none of these are to be brought into the publike assemblies Is there any so voide of sense that can not tast howe sower this Crabbe is which Maister Greenewood conueieth in among so many sweete Apples But he replieth further to confirme his matter by argument thus if anie mens writings may bee brought into the publike assemblies then al mens writings which are thought to be agreeable to Gods word may be brought in To prooue the consequence of this proposition he saith If God commaunde any to be brought in as being agreeable
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous