to considre in what signification the holye scripture doeth vse it Natha That is that whych I do aske Phy. We do fynde hel in the vsage of the holye Gene. xliiii Esai xxiiii scriptures and principally in the old testament for the death for the graue and for the state and condition of them that be departed of the which al the scripture doth beare wytnes therfor do we cal it hel which is a word takē of latin doth signifie as much as a low inferior place bicause we do put the bodie in the graue within the earth lower thē our habitatiō Natha Is that the propre significatiō Phyly That is the fyrste that it doeth signifie in the scriptures Nata Is there thē other Phy. Yea but they do hange vpon the same For as the death and the graue is the ende cōsummation of man as concernynge thys worlde euen so hell is taken for the extreme daungers miseries dolors anguishes that man may suffer and by the which he is darkned or brought vnto death Nathanael Vnderstādeste thou none other thynge by hell Phylype It is also likewise takē sūtime for the paine dew for sinne for the Iudgemente and wrathe of God and for the bottome and mischiefe of all euyll thynges of all miseries and vnhappines and bycause 〈◊〉 xvi Math. xvi that in the death and in the graue there is no thynge but stynkynge infection darknes and perpetuall horror it is somtyme taken for to siguifie the state cōdicion and the place of the damned otherwyse called Gehenue bycause that theyr death is not vnto lyfe that they Luke xvi Marc. v do abyde in the same in perpetuall darkenes of the whyche the graue is theyr beginnyng Natha Accordynge to whyche of these significations ought we to vnderstāde that Iesus Christe is descended into hell Phy. Accordynge vnto all Natha Howe so Phy. Fyrste thou muste note that he doth not saye in the singuler numbre He is discended into hell as thoughe he dyd speake of a place certayne wherunto he was goone But in the plurell He is descended to the helles comprehendynge all that which he had sayed before He hath suffred vndre ponce Pilate crucified dead and buried Natha And did it not suffice to haue already sayed the same by other wordes for if discendyd into hels doeth signifie no further what nede was it to put to this article Phy. Albeit that it do comprehende al that whyche alreadye hath bene sayed yet is it not put to without cause for it doeth better open and declare that whiche hath bene sayed doeth also better declare vnto vs the vertue and efficatie of the death and passiō of our Lord Iesus Christ doeth gyue vs to vnderstād what condemnation he hath borne how farre the vertue of hys death hath extēded Natha Expounde the same alitle better vnto me by particulers Phi. When oure Lord Iesus Christe had suffered and endured so many outrages blasphemies as when he dyd sweate bloude and was ful of anguish in his Luke xxii Math. xvi soule euen vnto the death and was shamfullie hāged betwene theues as forsakē of God of al creaturs without helpe fauour or cōsolatiō and dyd yelde vp his spirite vpon the tree of the crosse where he was hanged bearing the curse Ire and furore of God which is the verye hell felynge in hym selfe the condempnation paines and sorowes which we had deserued for oure synnes then was he truly descended into hels whych had wened to haue deuoured him but they coulde not bicause he was wythout sinne Nathana Is he no otherwise discended into hel Phy. He was also discended whē he was put Ephe. iiii into the sepulchre is discended into the lowe partes of the earth as the Apostle doth saye Nathana Dyd not hys soule and hys spirite discend to the sayntes fathers whych were dead before hys commynge Phylyp Yes Natha Where were they Phy. In the bosom of Abraham Natha What place was that Phy. The place of reste and blessednes wher all they were receyned whiche were deade in that fayeth of Abraham whiche is the fayeth in oure Lorde Iesus Christe Natha Is that limbo wher they be depriued of all the Ioyes of Paradise Phy. I haue not reade in any place in all the holye scripture that maketh mention of anye such limbo Natha was it thē in purgatorie Phy. Iesus Christ descended wel into purgatorie when he dyd humble caste down hym selfe euen vnto the mooste bitter death of the crosse sheadynge hys precious bloude for to washe purge our synnes for the same dyd obteine remission and grace other purgatory doeth not the scripture knowe but that same whyche hath efficatie in vs by fayth whyche purifieth the hertes Natha Howe is he then descended to the fathers and where was the bosome of Abraham Phy. I haue sayed that hell signifieth also the estate and cōditiō of thē that be dead departed wherfore when Iesus Christe was deade and buried he was discēded to them that be dead and departed that is to saye that he is dead for them and hathe borne the paine that they hadde merited and deserued after suche sorte that the vertue force and efficatie of the deathe of Iesus is extended not onelye vnto them whyche were alyue but also vnto al thē whyche haue bene sēce Adam and were dead Gene. iii. in the fayeth of that promised seede vnto the whyche Iesus Christ hath bene made felow dyeinge as they and descendynge into the graue as they to the ende that they should be partakers of the resurrection and glorye of hym whyche is sauiour of the liuyng dead Nath. It seameth by thy wordes that thou doeste abolyshe boeth limbo and purgatorie Phy. God furbide that I should aboleish purgatorie for it is the same in the whych I haue all my hope wythout the whych I shoulde wholli dispaire of my saluatiō for I do know well that no poluted and vncleane thynge cā Cor. xv entre into the kyngdome of heauen except it be purged made cleane but in dede I know no other purgatorie but the bloude of Iesus The true purgatorie Christe nor yet ani fyre whiche hath power vertue to pourge our sinnes but that of hys holie spirite as for limbo I could neuer find anie in al the holie scripture I could neuer see so mani diuers estates of thē that be departed as the priests mōkes fain lodging some in paradice other in hell other in purgatorie other in limbo I do not find in the holi scriptur but of ii estates cōdicions the whiche oure Lorde Iesus Christ hath represēted and sette forthe vnto vs in the exemple of the Ryche man and Lazarus there is but one estate of the happie and blessed and another of the reproued Natha Vnto whych of those dyd Iesus Christe descende Phyly Vnto boeth but in diuers sorties he is discended to the
vnto the infideles and hypocrites for they maye wel hold them selues for assured that theyr infidelitie hypocrisie shall be distroyed and theyr glory shal be turned into shame and confusion And in asmuche as we be coÌ„men thus far forth it doeth seme vnto me that these mattiers haue bene sufficientlye declared and al the misterie of our redemption after such sort that I hold my selfe verye well satisfied for my part and bicause I feare to make the werye wyth takynge ouer muche of the at once let vs here make a reste to an other tyme. Phylyp Thou canste not make me werye in suche mattiers yet neuertheles I am coÌ„tente to folowe thyne aduice Farewell Natha To God I commende the vnto whoÌ„ I praye to gyue vs suche grace that we maye at that greate daye of Iudgmente be found blameles and irreprehensible by the fauour merites of Iesus Christe Phy. So be it ⧠In these ii laste diologes is opened the other parte of the crede the which do concerne the holy Goste and the church wherein is declared that whyche appertayneth to the one and the other and is shewed what is the true churche of Iesu Christ what is hyr polesie ministration what goodes she receiued of him Nathanaell IN as muche as we haue done the greatest parte Phylype I shall desyre the to haue pacience and to take the paine to expound vnto me the reste that we maye se the end of thys mattier Phy. It is reason and I wyll not deuye the my payne seynge it bryngeth â—o lesse consolation vnto me then to the. Natha It semeth vnto me that there be yet two partes to be declared the one of the holye Goste and the other of the churche Phyly It is true but we maye well conioyne that of the holye Goste wyth that of the churche go forth as we haue begonne Natha It doeth folowe I beleue in the holye Beleue in the holy gost Goste it is no further neade that I shoulde aske howe thou vnderstandeste thys for by that thou haste alreadie declared vnto me the fayeth thou haste in the father and in the son I vnderstande wel thou confesseste that thou putteste all thy truste in the holye Gooste And that thou beleueste that by the same the father and the sonne doeth sanctifie the as by Iesus Christe thou art iustified by the vertu of the same holye spirite Phylype It is true Natha Notwythstandynge I vnderstande that yet woulde I verye gladlye thou wouldeste expounde me more largelye what thou vnderstandest properly by thys holy spirite Phy. The same vertue power mouynge and efficatie of God by the which the father and The holy gost the sonne worketh in vs nourisheth viuefieth as we haue all readye sayed in declaryng oure fayeth of the father and the sonne Natha In asmuche as thou beleueste in him thou holdeste hym for a God as wel as thou doeste the father the sonne Phy. Yea wythout doubte for I vnderstande not by thys anye maner of thyng out of god or besyde God but in God of hys propre substaunce Na. Wherefore callest thou hym spirite the father the sonne be they not also spirite seinge thou confesseste they be God that Iesus Christe doeth openlye testifie that Ihon. iiii God is a spirite the whyche muste be honored in spirite and trueth Phy. I deme not but God is a spirite and so by consequence the father the sonne but we must first considre The signification of the word spirite what is the signification of thys sayinge spirite and whether we speake of the essence and vnitie of God or of the distinctions which be in the same which the auncient fathers haue called the persones of the trinitie Natha And what is the propre signification of thys same vocable spirite Phy. I haue saied before that maÌ„ caÌ„ not find propre wordes as to speake of diuine thinges but muste borowe them of humayne thynges by similitude of the same declare the thynges celestiall and spirituall Natha I remeÌ„bre it well but tel me theÌ„ what is the natural significatioÌ„ of this same word and howe it agreeth wyth God Phy. Spirite signifieth properlie inspiration blowing wynd bycause ther is nothinge more subtille amonge corporall thynges nor that lesse can be perceiued by vewe or syghte theÌ„ the wind and the spirite it is ofteÌ„ tasteÌ„ in the scriptur for to signifie the things inuisible diuine Na. Therefore I thinke we call the soule vnderstaÌ„ding spirit not that it should be taken but for a wind but bicause it is inuisible sodaynd lyght as the wynd Phy. EueÌ„ so likewise God is called a spirite not that we shuld thinke that he were nothing eles but a wynde whych passeth but to make vs vnderstand that we ought not to Imagin that he shoulde be anye maner of thynge visible materiall or mortall but one nature essence perfecte inuisible incorruptible and immortall whyche wyll also be serued with the herte and theÌ„ soule of the spirite and vnderstandynge whyche be immortall not wyth ceremonies corruptible thinges Nathana Accordynge to thys signification the father the sonne and the holye Gooste be then al called spirite and all for one cause but expounde vnto me wherefore thou calleste more perticularlye the holye Gooste spirite then thou doest the father and the sonne Phy. WheÌ„ I behold the diuine esseÌ„ce vnitie of god I call them al spirites but when I coÌ„sidre the personal distinction of the whych we haue spoken here before I do then principally call the thyrde personne spirite bycause that worde doeth better open hys propertie then anye other we can fynde Thou muste also vnderstand that often tymes in the scripture The holie spirite for hys gyftes and graces Esai xi i. Cor. xii the holye Goste is taken not for the essence substaunce of hym selfe but also for hys giftes and graces Nath. Wherfore callest thou hym holye Phy. For to deserue hym from creatures and for to declare that I speake of that vertue power and mouynge of God whych is in God by the whych the father by his sonne Iesus doeth sanctifâ—e saue and vinifie vs. Nathana What callest thou holy Phy. A thynge pure and ferme seperated froÌ„ all corruption pollution and from all prophane carnal vsage a thing whole entier and inuiolate and all togyther dedicate vnto God I â—al theÌ„ the holy gost because he is such in dede and that by hym God in Iesu Christ sanctifieth maâ—ne that is to saye he purgeth maketh cleane consecrateth and dedicateth hym whollye to hym lelfe seperatynge hym from all vyle and prophane vsages to serue The christian sayutes onelye vnto hym Therfore also be the christians called sayntes because they be anoynted wyth that oyntemente and wythdrawen froÌ„ the seruitude of the deuyll coÌ„secrate by Iesus Christe for to serue the onelye God Natha I vnderstande nowe wherfore Iesus Christe dyd sende a greate
myghtye wynde when he gaue hys holye spirite vnto hys Apostles Phylyp There is no doubte but he dyd it to The holye spirite sheweâ— in wynde signifie that as the winde suffereth the Rociers the litle and small trees and ouerthroweth by the rootes breaketh down broseth and maketh ruinous the greate myghtye trees So the vertue of thys holy spirite is to bring consolation to the hertes aflicted to purge the consciences to iudge the euile to ouerthrowe and sette downe the proude and to vpholde beare vp the weake and humble Natha If we wyll then haue anye thynge of God we muste obteygne it by Iesus Christe workynge in vs by hys holie spirite Phylip. It is euen so for by hym all the beleuers be vnite in one self body with their head Iesus Christe and be nourished and vinified in hym as by the soule and spirite all the meÌ„bres whyche be in one bodye be partakers of the goodnes which is in the same body Natha I beleue for that cause we put to by by after thys article the which appertayneth nyghe vnto the churche the whych is the bodye of Iesus Christ of the whyche thou speakeste of vinifiynge sanctifiynge by the same holy Gooste for we do saye by and by after the catholyke churche Phy. There is no doubte Natha In asmuch theÌ„ as we haue treated the other three partes The church of the crede that we be come to the fourth whyche concerneth the churche daughter of the celestiall father spouse of Iesus Christe tell me fyrste what thou callest the church Phy. Churche signifieth congregation and assemble Eph. v but I do take it and vnderstaÌ„d it here for the asseÌ„ble of the true and faythful christians whyche be vnite coÌ„ioyned by one selfe spirite and one selfe fayeth Natha Is there anye other church then the churche of the faithfull Phy. As we do cal the bodye and membres of Iesu Christe the churche so hath Antichriste hys body and membres whyche togyther make the malignaunt churche but for asmuche as that toucheth vs in nothynge we leaue it aparte and speake only here of the tru The malygnant church church of Iesu Christe therfore do we cal it holy Natha For what cause Phy. To put difference betwene hyr and the church of Antichriste and for asmuche as she is sanctified by the holye Goste for to be the temple and habitatioÌ„ of God Natha Wher fore doest thou also call it catholike what signifieth that worde catholyke Catholike Phy. It doeth signifie vniuersal and therfore do I saye I beleue the vniuersall churche bycause the churche doeth signifie all assembles and congregation where the fayethfull be assembled as is the church of Choâ—hi of Rome Galathiens and othere lyke I wyll declare that there is one catholyke churche that is to saye vniuersall and generall comprehending all the other the whyche is generallye sowen thorowe all the worlde onelye knowen of the onelye God whiche knoweth the hertes Natha If she be sowen thorowe all the world how is she a church seing that church signifieth coÌ„gregatioÌ„ asseÌ„ble so as thou sayeste it should seeme rather to disperation seperation and confution Phylype Therefore muste we considre thys The churche inuisible churche spirituallye and muste not thynke it to be a visible and local assemble sette and limited in a certaine place Nathana Howe vnderstandest thou thys or howe can the churche be inuisible seyng it is the assemble of the fayethful whyche be visible menne Phy. I denye not but that the men whyche be of the churche be visible but thys ioynynge togyther of the churche oughte not to be considered of the coniunction of the bodies but of the hertes spirits that be inuisible which none cause and therefore notwythstandinge I see the menne that be of thys churche wheÌ„ they be presente wyth me yet neuertheles I The churche mingeled thorowe all the worlde can not see them all because they be sparkeled abrode thorowe all the worlde and thoughe they myght be assembled all in one place yet coulde I not knowe them perfectlye because that the elected shal neuer be so wel seperated in thys worlde frome the infidels and reproued but there shall be alwayes manye hypocrites mingled amonge them the whyche we can not wel deserue nor iudge vnto such time as Iesus Christe shall make seperation of the Math. xxv goâ—es from the lambes and of the wheate froÌ„ the tares therfore do I saye that thys church is inuisible because the eye caÌ„ not se it nor the humayne iudgmeÌ„t wel deserue it therfore do we saye we beleue it for if we did se it at our eye wee beleued not but notwythstandynge we can not se it at our eye yet we beleue that the Lorde hathe hys elected whyche notwithstandynge they be sparkeled aboute thorowe all the worlde as touchynge theyr bodies be yet neuertheles so ioyned togither by the spirite of God that they be but one selfe bodye one selfe herte and one selfe soule Act. ii iiii Natha Thou wylt then saye that the vniuersall churche is a spirituall and inuisible asseÌ„ble of all the elected and chyldrene of God whyche be vpon the earth in what place so euer they be whyche notwythstandinge they be seperated and farre distaunte one frome a nother as concerninge theyr bodyes yet they be all vnite by one selfe spirite into one body misticall of the whyche Christe is the head Col. i. ii whyche dyed for to assemble the chyldrene of God that were sparkeled but if thys church be inuisible howe canste thou saye thou beleueste in hyr and that thou holdeste hyr fayth howe canste thou knowe what she is what she beleueth if thou know hir not Phylype I saye not that I beleue in hyr Natha Doeste not thou confesse I beleue in the holye Gost the holye vniuersal churche Phy. I do saye and confesse openlye I beleue in God the father and in Iesu Christ and in the holye Gooste but of the churche I do not saye I beleue in the holye churche but I beleue the holye churche Nathana Is it not all one what difference is there Phy. Verye greate For if I sayed I beleue in the holye church I should coÌ„fesse that I put my trust in hyr as I haue sayed before to beleue in God and the churche is not god but is an asseÌ„ble of men cursed is man that trusteth in man wherfore if I sayed I beleue Iere. xvii in hyr I should speake agaynste my self and should reuerse the fayeth which I haue coÌ„fessed hytherto Nathana Declare vnto me the differeÌ„ce Phi. By expositioÌ„s going befor it is opeÌ„ inough what seÌ„ce mi words should haue if I sayed I beleue in the church But when I do saye I beleue the holie churche that is to saye I beleue and confesse that ther is an assemble by the whyche I haue diffined the churche and that in the same I wyll lyue and dye Natha Howe wylt
coulde not be but in hym that was fullye endued wyth the gooddes of fortune of the bodye and of the soule whyche to fynde in anye one man it were verye harde And by thys doctrine the prophettes Thre kyndes of godnesse Apostles and true childreÌ„ of God should not be verye happye and blessed and the doctrine of Iesu Christ should not be true which doth pronounce happy and blessed the poore in spirite the aflicted and persecuted for ryghtuousnes sake and they whyche haue honger thriste and whych wepe and morne Na. Therefore there be other that haue put Math. v. Luke vi the souerayne goodnes of man in vertu Phy. Those haue well perceyued and felte the inconueniences whych I haue before touched but for all that they coulde not hytt the whytte for they dyd neuer well vnderstand what was the true vertu that might leade vnto that soueraigne goodnesse and wyth great paine did they onely atteine vnto the shadow and coulde not fynde the verye ryghte waye The soueraine goodnesse of men to leade them for they dyd alwaye leaue a maÌ„ vnto hym selfe the whyche can in no wyse fynde that same soueraygne goodnes except he go out of hym selfe Natha where wylte thou then that he shall seke it Phylippe Out of hym selfe and of al creatures Nata Thou wilt theÌ„ that he go seke it in God Phyly In whom shoulde he fynde it but in him in whoÌ„ not only it is but is him selfe that same soueraygne goodnes for thou doest knowe well that man is infasiable and that he can neuer be contente and satisfied excepte he haue all And thoughe he had the heauen and the earth the sea and all that is conteyned in them yet shoulde he not be satisfied and fylled For he should not therby haue al for he can not haue al except he haue God to whoÌ„ al thinges perteyne and be hys owne in the whyche onely he may be satisfied and perfecte accordynge to the testimonie of the prophete saying then Psal xvi shal I be filled wheÌ„ thy glorye appeareth for without hym what maye we fynde but vnhappines synne Death malediction daÌ„nation hell Nata I beleue that nowe thou hast hyt the whyte but the hardeste is yet to do for it doth not suffice to know vnto what plac ende we ought to go nor yet in what hauen or port we desire to arriue excepte we knowe the meane waie to come vnto it wherefore I desire muche that if thou knowe it that thou wilt teache it me Phy. It is necessarie that he knowe it that should teach it vnto other and there is none that can knowe it but he that hath bene there and gone the Iorney Natha There is theÌ„ no liuynge man that can know it Phy. And therfore muste we haue recourse The waye to come to soueraynge goodnes vnto God whyche wyll gyue vs a guide to leade vs and hathe all readye gyuen vs one whyche can neuer go out of the waye that is Iesus Christe hys sunne oure Soueraygne maister whyche is come downe from heauen for to learne vs the waye and brynge vs thither Mat. xxiii xi for as he hym selfe wytnesseth that none can ascend vp into heauen but he that is come Iohn iii. Iohn ix Iohn i. The lader of Iacob Gene. xxviii down from heauen namely the sonne of maÌ„ that is in heauen none can come vnto my father but bâ—me I am the gate the dore the wai the trueth and the lyte he is the true ladder that Iacob sawe standynge vpon the earth reached vp to heauen The angelles of God goinge vp downe vpoÌ„ it and the Lord god leaninge vpon it but for to make vs the waie shorter playner more esie he hath brought Deut. iii. Rom. i. vs the heauens with hym selfe and that same soueraygne goodnes in suche sorte that we nede not to pas the seas nor the mountaines nor to go any longe waye or Iorney to come vnto it neade not to go out of oure selues Ephe. iiii Colo. iii. Math. iii. Luke xvii but of oure olde adam for the kyngdome of heaueÌ„ is at hande and the kingdome of God is within vs we haue the worde neare vs in our mouthes if we can know it Na. How â—heÌ„ Phy. The maister whyche is descended from heauen and that souerayne doctor whych the celestiall father hath sente vnto vs doth teach vs thys scieÌ„ce in two wordes sayinge Thys is the lyfe euerlastynge That they do knowledge the one onely true God and hym whoÌ„e he hath sente Iesus Christe Na. Then wylte â—noledge of God then by that conclud that the souerayne goodnes of manne and his true felicitie and beatitude and the meane to vnite and knyte all meÌ„ in one selfe herte and one verye wyll is to knowe God by Iesus Christe hys sonne Phy. Thou concludest verye well Nata If there neede none other thynge at the leste all the christians should be verye happie for they do all knowe God and Iesus Christe theyr Sauiour but it is neuertheles maruayle that there is so lyttle vnitie amonge them seynge they haue all that knoweledge Phy. If they had that knoweledge wythout doubt thei should be al of one accord should be verye happye and blessed but there be very fewe that hath that knowledge as it shuld be had Nata Is there theÌ„ ii sortes to know God Phy. Euen as there is two sortes to beleue Two sortes to knowe and beleue God For to beleue in God and knowe God cometh all to one Saynte Iames doeth saye that the Deuyles beleue and tremble before the maiestie of God But they beleue not in â—mes ii suche sorte as the faythfull children of God do They beleue there is a God and do feare hym but not as the good chylde feareth hys father but as an euyl doer 〈…〉 Iudge Notwithstandynge also they do beleue ther is one God yet beleue they not God is their God that is to saye that he is theyr Sauioure and father readye benigne fauorable and mercifull and that he wyll shewe vnto them hys grace and mercy thorow his sonne Iesus Christe for so is the nature of God hys propre office And he that knoweth hym not so knoweth hym not to be hys God but doeth hold him as a cruel tyraunte the which he doeth more feare then loue for we can not knowe him to be other without Iesu Christ because that the euil coÌ„scieÌ„ce which doth fele it selfe culpable of hys Iudgmâ—t causeth him so to repute hym wherefore it is impossible that any shoulde haue the true knowledge of God suche as is required to come vnto thys soueraygne goodnes but he that hathe hym in coÌ„templation not in hym selfe nor in him The true knowledg of God to be coÌ„sidered barely in his maiestie nor in anye other habite then in this humaine fleshe whyche he hath put on by hys soone Iesus Christe in the whyche he hathe declared
sparkled thorowe al the worlde there is no creature nor liuynge man that can be the heade seynge there is not that can be in all places where she is nor that can gyue hyr ayde and assistence suche as to hyr is requisite but the onelye Iesus Christe the whyche by hys diuine power and by hys holye spirite fulfilleth the heauen and the earth and is present vnto all hys elected the whiche he doeth leade conducte gouerne and vinifie whyche non other can or maye do wherefore what so euer he be that wyll make hym selfe heade of thys churche whereof he oughte to be but a membre he is neyther heade nor mēbre but doeth make hym selfe a mēbre of Antichriste and hathe chosen Satan for his head in asmuche as he setteth him selfe in the place of Iesus Christe settyng vp hym selfe aboue hym not knowledgynge him for his head vnto whom boeth Angelles and men oughte to be subiectes for S. Paul shewyng the fruites of the resurrection and ascention of Iesus Ephe. i. iiii Colo. i. ii Christe wryteth howe that God hath exalted and set hym vp aboue all heauens and aboue all the thrones powers Lordeshyppes and dominions and hathe gyuen hym to be heade of hys churche Natha I vnderstande wel what thou wouldeste saye I shall holde me then vnto hym and wyll neuer acknoweledge other head of that triumphant churche but shall holde for hys ministers the true ministers and pastours of his churche and the other whyche wyll attribute vnto them selues that dignitie for verye Antichristes But lette vs come nowe vnto that thou haste promised me and declare vnto me what example we maye take of all the historie of oure lorde Iesus Christ Phy. That were very longe to be recounted and tolde for ther is nothynge so litle whiche cōteineth not greate sacramēts misterie but I wyll onelye sette forth the thynge vnto the in two wordes by the which thou maist iudg of al the reste The historie of our lord Iesus Christe serueth vs for an example in two maners and fyrste howe we oughte to confirme How the historie of Iesu christ serueth for exemple oure selues vnto hym as concernynge oure regeneration and spirituall lyfe whyche is hidden in him the other howe we oughte to confirme oure selues vnto hym in oure outwarde lyuynge cōuersatiō Natha The more thou wouldeste make the thynges shorte the more they seme darke vnto me wherfore I pray the thynke not muche nor spare me nother tyme nor wordes but expounde me the thynges so largly that I may haue cleare vnderstandynge of them and tell me the fyrste poynte what vnderstandeste thou by the spirituall lyfe of the whych the historie of Iesus Christ serueth vs for an example Phylype I vnderstande that all the lyfe of Iesus Christe oughte fyrste to serue vs as an allegorye by the whyche we oughte spirituallye to yelde oure selues to be conformable vnto Iesus Christe in that whyche verelye riallye hathe bene accomplished in hys bodie the which can not be in ours Natha Thou speakest not much clearlier thē thou dydeste therefore declare vnto me that whych thou wouldeste say by exemple Phy. I am contente Iesus Christe hath beene conceiued by the holy Gost borne of the virgyn Marye he hath bene crucified dead buried is rysen agayne and gone vp into heauē all whyche thynges can not be accomplished in oure bodies as they haue bene in hys But lette vs take payne that oure spirite maye in the same be conformable vnto hym oure bodies be conceyued and borne in synne and iniquitie not of the holy Goste in the wombe of a vyrgin but of corruptible seede and then for to be conformable vnto hym in thys lette vs nowe come vnto hys church beleue in hys Gospell and in the same whyche is oure mother and a virgin pure and chast we shal be conceyued and begotten by the incorruptible seede of the word of God our father and by Spiritual cōceptiō birth Gala. iiii i. Petre. ii Iohn xxxi Ephe. iiii the vertue of hys holye spirite shal be borne agayne chyldrene of God and shall be newe creatures and put of the olde manne and put on the newe bearynge the Image of the newe Adam whyche is Iesus Christe as wee haue borne that of the olde and of the synfull man Natha Beholde for thys is a holye conception and happye byrth Phy. Then in asmuche as we be all ready so conceyued of the holye Goste and borne of that pure virgin the churche whyche is the spouse of Iesus it muste followe also that the Eph. v. reste of oure lyfe be conformable vnto that of Iesus Christe accordynge to our spirituall conception natiuitie and byrthe We be not crucified nor put vnto death as he was but learne we of him to beare our crosse To be crucified with christ wyth him to be crucified vnto the worlde the worlde vnto vs as saynte Paule doeth write of hym selfe Nathana And howe can we be crucified vnto the worlde and the worlde vnto vs Phylyp When we dye vnto the world likewise dieth the world vnto vs. Na. These maner of speakynges To die to the worlde be verye darke Phy. They be darke vnto them whyche be not acquaynted or accustomed wyth the maner of speaking of the Apostles But I do vse ◠wyllynglye boeth to accustome the and bycause I do take pleasure in the stile of the spirite of God and of his Apostles To be crucified and dead vnto the worlde that is to be crucified dead vnto sinne and that is to forsake Rom. vi synne to haue no more acquayntaunce wyth hym and to do him no more seruice thē the dead do vnto the lyuynge for as the dead haue nothynge in commune wyth the liuinge but be seperated the one frome the other and haue no more acquayntaunce togyther euen so be they deade vnto the world which haue forsaken it to serue God and wyl no more be conformable vnto it that is to saye vnto the fleshe nor vnto hys concupiscences so is it impossible but they whiche be thus dead vnto the worlde liue vnto God and the worlde To liue vnto the worlde lykewise dead vnto them by the contrarye they whyche lyue vnto the worlde and vnto whom the worlde lyueth be dead vnto God as the Apostle doeth wryte of the voluptuous wydowe sayinge the wydowe whyche i Timo. ii doeth lyue in lustes pleasures in so lyuyng is dead and bicause that she lyueth vnto the worlde she is dead vnto God so then when we dye vnto the worlde we ryse vnto God and do practise in oure selues the exemple of the death and passiō of Iesus Christ spiritually whē we mortify our earthlye mēbres offer our bodies as lyuyng sacrifices vnto god Roma xii Colo. iii. and do kil by the swerd of the worde and do burne vp by the fyre of his spirite oure cōcupiscence carnall affectiōs lustes whiche be
should be a newe God whiche had some beginnynge the whyche is a thinge repugnaunt vnto the nature of God Natha But mai not God do what so euer he wyll in asmuche as the diuinitie of Iesus Christe can not be seperated from hys humanitie is not hys bodye in all places wher his diuinitie is Phy. Nothinge is impossible vnto God and albeit he may do al yet neuertheles his power is aswayes conioyned wyth hys wisdome and vseth it not disordinatly but alwayes in suche sorte that hys worckes be not confused but that hys creature abideth alwayes a creature gyuing him suche propreties as he will and yet foloweth it not that the diuinitie and humanitie of oure Lorde Iesus Christe be so inseperable that hys humanitie fulfilleth the heauen and the earth as hys diuinitie doeth for my body and my spirite be conioyned togyther and yet it foloweth not therefore that my bodye shoulde be in all places where my spirite maye be for my spirite maye be rauished euen vp into heauen and yet my bodye neuertheles shal be in the earth or and if thou loueste better the cōparison of Saynt Austen God dwelleth in vs by hys holy spirite and yet neuertheles we be not in all places and enerye where where God is albeit he dwelleth in Iesus Christe otherwyse then in vs but thys ioyninge togither or comunction of two natures doeth not take from the natures theyr propreties Natha But is there no difference betwen the bodies glorified and the mortall and corruptible bodies Phy. Yes verye greate and I denye not but The glorious body of chirst that the gloriousse bodie of Iesus Christe is now farre other then it was before his death and resurrectiō yet hathe he not for all that chaūged his body but hath alwaies kept the same he had before hathe not chaunged his substaūce except that he hath put of the qualities of imperfectiōs miseres which he toke for vs is immortal glorious or otherwise he shoulde not be trulie rysen nor we shoulde not call the resurrection resurrection excepte that same propre bodie and that same propre flesh whych is fallen by death were rysen vp agayne nor shoulde not receyue lyfe by the same so myght it be rather called mutation or chaunging thē resurrectiō thē to dispute subtellye curiouslye of the properties of the bodye glorified of the place where the bodye of Iesus Christe is shoulde be a thynge not onelye vnseamynge but also vnworthye of the simplicitie and of the euangelicall doctriue we ought to contēt our selues to knowe Luke xxiiii Iohn xxi that Iesus Christe is in the celestiall glorye and that he hath a verie true body such as he shewed it vnto hys disciples hauyng fleshe bones and that it is not chaunged into spirite but doeth holde alwayes the properties of a verye true bodye suche as appertayneth vnto a verye and true glorified bodye whyche not wythstādynge it hath put of al humaine infirmities yet followeth it not for all that that it is in al places nor in diuers or manye places al at one tyme instante We oughte to beleue that he is in heauen sette vpon the ryghte hande of God hys father where as Act. vii saynte Stephan dyd see hym For to dispute and diffine what is thys heauen that ryght hande of God is here no neade but is more sure to putte it of and leaue oure disputation vnto the tyme we came there and maye se it by experience and that we maye vse suche diligence to folowe Iesus Christe in the tyme we be in thys lyfe that we may come thether and beholde hym Natha And if it be thus as thou sayest howe can we make it agree wyth that whyche the priestes make vs beleue that the body of Iesu Christ is in the hoste betwene theyr handes The corporal presence or in the pixkes euen as greate and large as he was vpō the crosse Phy. They whyche beleue that beleue not that he is sette vpon the ryghte hand of God And shall come frō thense to iudge the quicke and the dead Natha Wherefore not Maye he not as well come downe and goe vp by the vertue of the sacramentall wordes as he is goue vp Phy. To what purpose or what neade is it that he should come downe descend or ascende seing he fulfilled all by hys vertue and power If it were neadful that hys bodie should be presented vnto vs carnallye wherefore is not he taried wyth vs or wherefore is he not returned to be cōuersaunte as he was before with hys disciples wherefore did he saye vnto his disciples It is expediente for yo◠that I depart for excepte I depart that conforter shall not come If the corporal presēce he Iesu christ dyd wyth holde the hertes of the Apostles here in this lowe earth and dyd hyndre them to knowe hym spirituallye howe shoulde he haue wylled vs to sette oure spirites to seeke hym in almorsell of breade in the handes of a synner or in a pixce or boxe hathe he not sayed he woulde be prayed vnto of them whiche shoulde honoure and seeke hym in spirite and in trueth and that suche be the true honorers and howe shall wee honoure hym in spirite trueth if we goe aboute to seeke and honoure hym in visible and corruptible thynges and Ihon. iiii in houses made wyth the handes of menne and to muse vpon a morsell of breade or vpō a pyxe or boxe howe maye thys agree wyth that whyche Saynte Paule commaundeth vs sayinge If ye be rysen agayne wyth Iesus Christe seeke not the thynges whyche be Colo. iii. on the earth but those that be aboue wher Iesus Christe is vpon the ryght hande of God the father or wherefore do the priestes synge in theyr masses Sursum corda haue your hertes on hye and wherfore do the other answer We haue thē to God Why wyll they rote them here in thys lowe earth and holde them in the Imagination of corporall and carnall presence rather then to learne them to know Iesus Christe spirituallye makynge theim to fele the fruite of hys bitter death passiō For thys cause hath he instituted hys holye Institucion of the supper supper not for to make vs seke a corporal presence but for to represent hym self vnto vs by these visible sygnes for to learne vs by the same to go vp into heauen to hym for he wyl not that we drawe hym from heauen by wordes as coniurars and enchaunters but will drawe vs vnto hym self by hys holy spiritte and wylleth that oure hertes be lyfted by vnto hym and that we there be traunslated and traunsported by hys vertue to receiue repast nouryshmente of hys fleshe of hys bloud wherefore it is no neade that he shoulde descend or go vp for if he myght not communicate hys fleshe and hys bloude vnto vs other wyse then by hys corporall and carnall presence and wythout descendynge
corporallye frome heauen the vertue and power of hym selfe and of hys holye spirite were not great and shoulde not haue so muche power as the sunne the which without coÌ„ming down from heaueÌ„ doth veri wel coÌ„municate his light and heate to meÌ„ wherfore may not theÌ„ Iesu christ coÌ„municate him selfe to oure spitites soules bodies by the vertu of his spirite coÌ„ioyne vnite vs wyth him selfe as the meÌ„bres wyth their head We haue not theÌ„ ani caus to make a god of the bodie of Iesus or a moÌ„struousse bodie which shold fulfil al places or to gyue hym manye bodyes as we muste neades be coÌ„strained to do if we will folow the doctrin of the priestes seynge that they wyll that all in one hours one selfe minute momente and instante he shoulde be in so manye places all at a time it is much more sure to holde our selues vnto the testimonie of the Angels whiche haue testified vnto hys disciples the daye of hys ascention that as they sawe hym goe vp visiblye so shoulde he be seene descend whych Act. i. he him self also before had affirmed Sayinge that he should come as a lyght whych should be seene from the Oriente vnto the occidente Math. xxiiii wherefore he doeth declare that he shall not come inuisible and that there where hys bodye shall be there shall be hys elected Natha These wordes be vnderstand of hys The sacrameÌ„tal commyng of Christe corporall commynge vnto the iudgement but there is an other whiche is sacramental Phy. I deny not but Iesu Christ cometh eueri day vnto vs and is in the middeste amonge vs wyth vs vnto the ende of thys worlde presente vnto vs but that is by his diuine vertue and by hys power and hys holye spirite but of commynge and presence corporall and carnall the scripture promiseth vs no other theÌ„ that whyche shall be at the laste daye I deny not but he is present vnto vs by hys worde by hys sacramentes but that is in the maner that I haue alreadye shewed Natha Thou wylt then saye that he descendeth not corporallye vnto the laste daye Phy It is the scripture that so sayeth and not I. Nathana Howe shall he come then and in what fourme Phy. He shall come accompanied wyth Angelles wyth the cloudes in the Math xxv glory of God his father in the propre fourme that he ascended Natha Wherefore shall he come then in hys propre bodye then visiblie rather then nowe Phy. Bycause that then shal be the tyme that he muste make accompte and make them pertakers of hys glorye and immortalitie whych haue suffered wyth hym and beleued in hym and shall make them the fote stole of hys feâ—e whyche haue resisted hym to the ende they may feele hym theyr iugde and Lord in theyr greate confusion in the daye of the ire of god in asmuche as they woulde not knowe hym nor receiue hym for theyr sauioure in the time of grace and mercie Natha Wherfore sayest thou the quicke and i. Cor. xv i. Tessa iiii the dead shal there be then some lyuynge Phy. Accordynge to the sayinge of Saynte Paule it is manifeste that there shall be then when he shall come the whyche neuertheles shal be chaunged and hydden sodaynlye and shall mete Iesus Christe in the ayre Natha And shall they come before theÌ„ that be dead Phy. No. For fyrste the trumpet shall blowe and the dead shal aryse and then all togyther shal be found in a momeÌ„te wyth the Lorde Natha And shall not the same dye Phylyp Saynte Paul calleth not that chaunge death because it shal be more shorte and sodayne theÌ„ the twynkelynge of an eye but neuertheles they shall be all togyther chaunged euen as they whyche shall haue slepte in the pouder of the earth and shall put of mortalitie for to put on immortalitie Natha Thou vnderstandest then by the lyuynge the deade them whyche at that time shal be lyuyng and them whyche before that time shal be dead Phy. I saye that the article maye verye well be so vnderstande and that the doctrine of S Paule is conformable vnto the same vnderstandynge but we maye also well vnderstaÌ„d it otherwyse wythout contradiction of the scripture Natha Declare it vnto me Phy. We may take thys copulation for one vniuersall signifiynge as muche as thoughe we would say he shal come to iudg the quicke and the dead that is to saye al humayne creatures for the same two wordes doeth comprehende all sortes of people or he shall come to iudge the quike whyche yet at thys presente tyme be alyue whyche shall dye neuertheles at theyr tyme and the dead that is to saye all them whyche haue bene before vs whyche is as muche as thoughe he shoulde saye all them whyche haue bene be shal be of what estate or condicion so euer they be Nathanaell Declare vnto me yet in how manye maner of wayes I maye vse these thyngs vnto my profit Phylype In verye manye but I shall touche one or two of the pryncipal Thys iudgment of God oughte to learne and admonishe vs to walke in thys same mortall pilgrimage in simplicitie of herte and to putte a sure brydle vpon oure carnall concupiscences and to redresse and refourme oure selues to the ryghte waye of the wyll of God beyng assured that we must make accompt that not vnto a mortall manne as we be but vnto hym that knoweth not onelye all oure worckes but also al our wordes and thoughtes knowynge that Math. xii Math. i. there is nothynge so secrete but at that tyme it shall be discouered before God before hys Angelles and before all menne that euer shal haue bene vpon the earth We ought then to be verye ware to doe any thynge in secrete whyche wee woulde not do openlye but we oughte to walke in thys lyfe as thoughe wee sawe God alwayes before oure eyes And after the abydynge and lokynge for this Iudgemente oughte to wythdrawe oure selues frome doynge anye wronge or iniurye vnto anye persone and oughte well to keepe oure selues frome goynge out of the ryghte waye of trueth other for anye prayse or for anye disprayses or for sclaunders or for the good or euyll wyll of menne nother yet for anye profitte or dammage that myghte come vnto vs nother for prosperitie nor aduersitie that myghte come for we are certaine that then shall be holden the greate and laste appellation and all causes shall be broughte forthe and iudged but not accordynge to the iudgement of men but accordynge to the iust iudgmente of God by the whyche euery one shal receiue praise or shame vituperie accordynge as he shall haue deserued Natha Thys article as thou expoundeste it ought to brynge greate consolation vnto all the true fayethful whyche suffer persecution in thys worlde knowynge that at that tyme theyr sorrowe shall be turned into ioye and theyr shame into glorye and of the contrarie it oughte to gyue greate feare
be spiritual be commune vntâ—â—â—l but there is an othere coÌ„munion betwen◠〈◊〉 Sayntes that yet be lyuynge them whiche be departed for eyther of theim haue theyr estates aparte And therefore is there no suche CoÌ„munioÌ„ betwene saintes lyueinge and them that bee dead communion betwen the Sayntes that be departed and vs as there hathe bene betwene them in the time that they lyued and theÌ„ that lyued wyth them at the leaste we haue no testimonye of the holye scriptures for they serue not nowe vnto the church wyth the giftes and graces whyche they in theyr tyme receyued of God for the edification of the same for they haue fulfilled and ended theyr course and theyr ministration whyche nowe is committed vnto others and of the other part thei haue no more nead of vs nor of oure goodes for they be out of al necessitie Nath. Oughte we not then to honour them Phy. We may not honoure them as though they were present wyth vs nor do vnto them reuerence nor salute them nor speake to them nor presente vnto them of oure goodes nor anye maner of seruice for othere honourâ— nor seruice can we not do vnto them but in folowynge theyr holye doctrine and holye lyfe and conuersation as they haue folowed Iesus Christe for those be the reliquies that they haue lefte vs in the whych they would be honored by vs and so then when wee haue the â—â—lye scriptures in reuerence the whych god hathe geuen vnto vs by them then do we honoure theyr reliquies Nathana It is then greate folye to offre vnto Offerynge to sayntes them breade wyne candels golde and siluer and other thynges lyke seynge they haue no maner of nede Phylyp That is a furye or follye more then paâ—â—imrie it weare muche better for to offre vnto the lyuynge Images and Sayntes for to accomplishe that whyche the Apostle exhorteth vs to admonishynge vs to communicate vnto the necessitie of the sayntes it is verye cleare that he speaketh not there of the Sayntes departed but of the lyuynge and of the pore membres of Iesus Christe beinge among vs languisshyng and ouer preste with pouertie and necessitie Nathana I doubte not but those offerynges were more pleasynge vnto God Phi. Such were they of the primatiue church for the gatherynge spendynge and distributynge of the whiche the churche at that tyme haddâ— hyr deacons to serue at the tables and At. vi Rom. xvi vnto the necessitie of the pore we can no here fynde chapell churche or Image more meete for the practisynge of thys excommunicatioÌ„ and to offre vnto the Sayntes then in visitynge the hospitales pore wydowes orphaÌ„s fatherles sycke lame neadie and indigeÌ„t Vpon suche Sayntes ought the goodes of the churche to be employed and spente and vpon them that serueth hyr and haue nede Nathan That same were a goodlye thynge but tel me yet what seameth it the of brotherheades and monkerye for seynge there is but Deut. vi i Timo. ii Ephe. iiii one christian church one communion of laintes one God one mediatour of God man one spirite as we haue coÌ„fessed hytherto and that all is but one gospell one Baptisme one Ceane one fayeth and that all the christians ought to be in one selfe bodye one selfe herte and one selfe soule it seameth to me that ther oughte to be but one religioÌ„ and one brotherheade seyng that al the christians be brothers haue all receyued one selfe spirite of fayeth and christiaÌ„ religion Phy. There is no doubt but they which haue bene the authours of the monasticall lectes and that foloweth theim suche as they be at thys presente tyme and those brotherheades lykewyse taken of the folowynge of the panyms be Apostatase from the true church of Iesus Christe for as Sismatykes they do deuide breake and teare the communion of saintes for as there is but one God so can there be but one religion The whyche S. Iames doeth diffine in thys maner the religion that is pure and without spot towardes God the father is thys Viset the fatherles widowes in theyr neades and tribulations and be not spotted defiled wyth thys worlde he doeth not saye that the true religion is to shute thy selfe in a cloister or to dwell in the deserte to be disguised in diuers habites to eate and deuour the pore widowes fatherles vndre the colour of long praiynge for suche religion is to much pharisaicall but the christian religioÌ„ doth lye in fayeth whyche maketh vs studye vnto all puritie and innocentie to exercise our charitie towarde our neyghboure whych is the true marke of the true christians disciples of Iesus Christe the Abbot of that religion is God the father and the gardian is Iesus Christe and the religious brethrene be al true christians and faythfull for as the Apostle testifieth the spirite of God witnesseth vnto oure spirite that we be the chyldrene of God by the whyche we crie Abba that is to saye father then in as muche as Abba doeth signifie father and that wee take God so to be and call hym father there is theÌ„ no doubt but he is the Abbot and founder of oure religion Act. ii Ephe. ii the whyche he doeth conserue maynteyne and gouerne by Iesu Christ hys sonne whom he hath giuen to be head of the church Ihon. vi x. and into whose handes he hathe putte vs all to be vinified sanctified vnite and conioyned wyth hym by hys holy spirite and the habite that we muste put on in thys religion is oure Lorde Iesus Christ the newe manne whiche we muste put on and of the olde Adam for Ephe. iiii we muste chaunge the skynne and the herte and not the ayer and the coote or clothes Nathana In asmuche then as God is the father of vs all and that wee make inuocation vnto hym by that name it doeth folowe also that we be all bretherne and so wyll Iesus Christe that we call oure selues and then if we be all brethrene wee be then one brotherhead I can not then vnderstande that here is anye other brotherhead but that of the holye Gooste by the whyche the churche is assembled and all the sayntes vnite and conioyned in one communion Phy. Thou concludeste verye well therefore Brotherhed Math. xiii confesse we fyrst in this crede the faith which we haue in the father whyche saueth vs by Iesus Christe hys sonne and doeth sanctifie vs by hys holye spirite whych be of one selfe essence and diuinitie wyth the father in the whyche we beleue and put al oure truste we laye fyrst the fundation and the cause and after we come vnto the churche whiche vpoÌ„ the lâ—me is founded builded Howe can we theÌ„ saye that we be of the brotherhead of Saynt Bernarde and of Saynte Sebastian and of The brotherhed of saynts suche othere lyke or of Saynte Barbara or saynt Katheryn or of oure Ladye or of anye other of the holye Sayntes what soeuer they be