Apostles faith was so strong as it needed no meanes to stirre vp the same And I would tell you you say vntruly but that your skore is so full that now you be desperate Of these two bastardly propositions conceiued and brought forth by your selues and not by me you frame a Contradiction saying therupon that I will turne â—re I burne yea with the turning of an hand turne the cat in the pan and then you tell my pupils they may be pestilent proud of such a turne-about tutor Here wee may beholde as your honest dealing with me so your eloquence and modestie Besides I auouching the Apostles strong faith after Pentecost able for miracles whatsoeuer and therefore vnlikely the Lord should appoint a peculiar course for them for so short a time as from his transfiguration till then you collect from hence the weaknes of their faith till Penticost which I graunt you and more then that namely that their miraculous faith was vtterly extinct at this time And therfore no vse of fasting and prayer for the extraordinarie work but onely as it serued to the vsual maner of the Church in this case But you wil proue the apostles miraculous faith might faile aâ—ter Pentecost because their faith failed sometimes in doctrine and 〈◊〉 That we may vnderstand your meaning what do y◠〈◊〉 by Doctrine what by iudgement Doctrine vsuall is publike teaching and instruction Iudgment priuate thinking and opinion Did the Apostles erre in publike teaching You saye The Apostles and bretheren which were in Iudâ—a thought the word of God was not to be preached to the Gentils Act. 11. 2. You ground this ouâ— of these wordes And when Peter was ascâ—nded to Hâ—erusalem they of the circumcision contended against him VVho contended with him The Apostles say you but without any warrant from the text It seemeth S. Luke hauing mentioned the Apostles in the first verse doth of purpose in the second vse these generall termes They of the circumcision to distinguish these contenders with Peter froÌ„ the Apostles It may be the Apostles did not yet â—o clearly vnderstand this mistery yet it is not likelie they were in this caâ—e no more but equall to the weake brethren whereby theâ— should ioyne in contention with them Grant we also an errour here it was only in iudgement not in doctrine And as for Peters not going rightly to the truth of the Gospell it was not error Gat. 2. 13. 14 either in doctrine or iudgement but a timorous dissimulation for the time Iohn his falling downe before an Angell was errour through Râ—ue 19. 10 sodaine passion not proceeding from setled iudgement much lesse auouched in publike teaching Considering therefore these places proue not that the Apostles erred in doctrine and iudgement and that the Lord doth principallâ— promise that the Spirit of truth should lâ—ad Ioh. 16. 13 14. 26. 1. Cor. 3. 10. Ephes 2. â—0 them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance which Christ had told them whereupon they be called Skilfull Maister-builders and the Church is said to be built vpon the foundation of the prophets and apostles It is admirable you dare so considently auouch such an assertion vpon so little or rather no warrant and of so dangerous consequence You childishly cauill at my speech where I say Their faith did not faile them after they receiued the holy Ghost in â—ag 127. c That fâ—â—nesse as if I had attributed such a fulnesse to theÌ„ as is not incident to a creature and yet I expresly distinguish it by note of restraint Act. 7. 55. 13. 9. Luc. 1. 41. Act. 2. 2. 4 That fulnesse that is such a plentifull measure as I had spoken of before Such an one as was said of Stephen â—hat hee was ful of the holy Ghost and of Paul and of Elizabeth when shee brake forth into that heauenly salutation of the blessed virgin that she was filled with the holy ghost The same is said of Zachaâ—y when he prophecied and of the Apostles that they were filled with the holy ghost And all these in the Concret but in the Abstract without all limitation to haue the fulnesse â—f the Spirit belongeth onely to a diuine person the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost So that whatsoeuer person hath the simple fulnesse of the Spirit the same is God as well as hee who hath the fulnesse of the Godhead Of Christ his fulnesse to whom the Father hath not giuen his Spirit by measure do all the elect receiue not the fulnes it selfe but grace for grace that is graces or gifts of the Spirit heaped vpon graces euery one according to the measure of the gift of Christ some eueÌ„ vntil their cup runne ouer All which discourse when at last you pag. 133. conclude that howsoeuer the Apostles were subiect to errour yet they could not posâ—iblie erre sâ— long as they heard the voice of Christ and but followed the onely directions of the spirit of truth And that they did neuer vniuersally erre Moreouer that they did neuer â—â—cline from the foundation it selfe lastly that they wâ—re recalled from their eâ—râ—ursâ— what singular thing do you ascribe to the Apostles that is not common to all beleeuers Are not the Apostles to be preferred aboue all other Ministers of the Gospell and beleeuers since theire dayes Yet you seeme to put them in the very same raâ—ke Nay you say in the top of the same page that there â—e some Fâ—stâ—noniâ—s of the Apostles which onely but slipped from humane infirmities and that these â—ow glorious soeuer in shew are not the testimony of Iesus therfore not the spirit of prophâ—cie you speake here very daungerously that I say no worse You argue the defect of the Apostles miraculous â—aith from their pag. 135. Act. 4. 29 30. 9. 40 〈◊〉 8. 8 praying in working miracles which rather is an argument for the continuance of it For if it had â—in vtterly extinâ— it had not bene to â—e obtained by prayer but if you say Prayer declareth the â—eaknes of it and that you meane such weaknesse as without prayer haâ— not beene able to effect the worke it is false 〈◊〉 hath beene oft â—emembred vnto you but if you take weaknesse for some lesse measure of Matt. 17. cheerefulnesse which had neede be stirred by inuocation of Gods holy name I graunt you such a weaknesse but this is too weake to strengthen any whit your cause you charge mee falsly in saying I denie that the apostles faith might did faile before they were filled with Doct. pag. 46 48 Doct. 49 pag. 136 the holy Spirit I know not how oft I affirme this which you say is the very point I denie Neither do I say it was but fortie dayes betweene Christ his transfigiâ—ation and Pentecost I do writtingly let passe manie of your lies it is a trouble to repeate them you see no inconuenience to approper these words This kind
my writings might make most for your purpose euen purposely maymed my writings which you deny and I affirme iudge thou indissirently betwene vs good reader And whether you will acknowledge and redresse the offred wrong whereof I complaine and which I trust to be a wrong I haue made manifest by this my Replie vnto all men to your owne consciences as you pretend you will nay seeme to abhorre not to do it if once the wrong shal be made to appeare saying God forbid that we should not doe it very willinglie in time both thou and I shall know And thus much for answer to their supposed contradictions For breuitie sake I omit my reply to the Absurdities wherewith you charge me and your slaunders conteined in them Here not vnfitly may I charge you with the contradictions Absurdities I find in your writinges and if it fall out so that your selues be found faultie in that wherof vniustly you accuse another then thereby learne henceforward to plucke rather the beame out of your own eyes then busie your selues so much about lesse then a mote in your brothers eye In their Answere page 55 and page 179 of their Discourses they say that the manifestation of Christ his deitie and declaration of his glorious spell were the maine ends of possâ—ssion and a little after that the possession of diuels were especially for these two ends therby in sinuating that there were some other ends or end Yet page 67 of the same booke they say that these were the two only ends of this vonderfull iudgement 2 In their Dial. dis page 58 they say angels doe euermore worke after an inuisible insensible and spirituall maner And the next leafe page 60 they say that angels in all their ambassages they do other manifest themselues by seeing and hearing or assist vs estsoonâ—s by some other sensible means And they bring Augustine flatly affirming that the angels do outwardly helpe vs by certaine visible apparitions or sights which they propose and offer before our eyes 3 In their Discourses pa. 42 they say the mind it selfe and it only is that wherein motion consisteth and the body is but the minds organon or instrument hauing naturally in it selfe no motion at all or no further motion at the most then for those only actions wherin the said mind whose organon it is imployeth the same But in pag. 74 of the same booke they affirme that the body it selfe hath and may accomplish or effect corporall operations and motions by it selfe alone without anie the direction moderation guidance or 〈◊〉 of the soule 4 In their Discourses pag. 116 they say the diuell did so bewitch and charme the Serpent as that through his craftie suggestion shee was very wel able to propound such a diuination or soothsâ—…ing as dâ—d presently circumuent or deceiue Fuah And in the same booke page 1 9 they say that a reasonable speech cannot possibly bee framed or vnderstood of anie but of a mind hauing vnderstanding and reason 5 In their Answer pa 50 they say These eight dâ—moniakes might be possessed though the diuell was not essentially inherent in anie one of their bodies But page 43 of the same booke they say The pâ—ssession of diuels whatsoeuer is ceased long since 6 In their Discourses 173 they say The Apostles might autheÌ„tically auouch for insallible truth whatsoeuer they preached But in their Answere page 126 128 129 130 they say that the apostles sometime failed in doctrine And a little after all these were their errâ—urs in doctrine and iudgement And againe It was expedient for the apostles to erre in some things that is some points of doctrine And this they vnderstand after the holy Ghost fell vpon them as is plaine by the aforesaid pages 7 In their Answer pag. 7 they say that wonders and miracles are flatly confounded but in their Dialogicall discourses 209 they say the diuel may worke wonders but can effect no miracles And pag 310 thus A thing effected by essentiall means howsoeuer it may be a wonder yet no miracle in any respect 8 In your Discourses pag. 352. for your parts you assure me that you are very farre from all suspition of a precompacted confederacie betweene Sommers and me Yet in page 42. of your Answere you say why should we wonder at all that two â—unning companâ—â—ns Meaning Sonnners and my selfe consedâ—rate together before should conclude such a course betweene themselues as the one by the helpe of the other should progmsâ—icate strange and meredâ—ble euents 9 In pag. 39. of their Discourses they tell vs There is not anie one sound Diuine that dâ—thâ—n t vnderstand Possession as they doe and none as I fondly imagine and yet in the â—pistle to the Reader prefixed before that booke that which they deliuer concerning possession and d sposs ssion of dâ—uels they call thâ—t priuate opinion and in page 195 of their Answere The Lord his lately revealed counsels Part of their absurd and vnsound Positions 1 Godby good Angels may effect fantasticall vaine and filthie effects Answers 15. 2 Good â—ngels may effect vaine and filthy effects ibid. 3 VVheresoeuer the Scriptures speake of Angels or diuels they speake only by metaphore ibid. 4 The Diuel hath no desire to be in any mans body Ans 22 5 The Iewes in Christs time did partly know the parties which were possessed from the often reuelation of the parties themselues answ 32 6 Godby his Spirit instructed the Cananitish woman mentioned Matth. 15 22 of her daughters malacie answ 33 7 The manifestation of Christs deitie and the confirmation of the Gospell the only ends of Possession answ 67 8 Christ hath put a finall end to the possession of diuels by his death and resurrection answ 66 9 The supernaturall actions or effects of the Diuel in Demoniaks cannot possibly be comprehended by humane senses Ans 69 10 The working of miracles was only in Christ and his Apostles dayes answ 90 11 God hath appointed plowing and sowing for a meanes of abundance or barrennes vpon the ground answ 172 12 Good angels do euormore worke after an invisible insensible and spirituall manner Dialogical discourses 58. This is to bee refuted by all those places where angels are said to haue appeared and spoken in visible formes vnto men 13 The body hath and may accomplish by her selfe alone corporall actions and motions without anie her soules direction moderation guidance or consent Dial. disc 74 14 The dead carcasse of a man or the body being separate from the soule may and doth also effect corporall actions and motions ibid. 15 The Diuel did so bewitch and so charme the Serpent as that through his craftie suggestion shee was very well able to propound such a diuination or soothsaying as did presently circumuent and deceiue Euah Dial. disc 16. Absurd that the Diuell should not onely thus make the Serpent it selfe to speake but also argue the matter like a reasonable creature 16 The apostles erred in some points of doctrine after the holy Ghost fell vpon them Yea it was expedient for them so to erre answ 126 128 129 130 17 It is verie erronious for able to imagin that the eyes may possibly be deceiued in discerning betweene spirits that is bodies assumed by spirits and true naturall bodies Dial. disc 157. You forget that Abraham and Lot were deceiued as appeareth by Gen. 18. and 19. FINIS I am to craue thy patience good Reader specially the authours for the late comming forth of this booke for I confesse it hath layen in my hands almost this halfe yeare
you mention their swelling arising from the Mother their foming from the Epilepsie their extraordinarie strength from mania c. and so had a compounded disease percase of as manie seueral diseases as they had seueral effects Tel vs also whether you haue seene one partie afflicted at the same time with Melancholy Lunacie Phrensy Epilepsy Mother Convulsion and the Crampe Besides whether you haue known such an one diseased with all these grieuous maladies restored againe naturally to his health in one day When you haue resolued these doubts we wil hold our selues satisfied for this argument In the meane season it remaines for all your answere in as ful force as euer it did And here we may obserue how all that they prattle both here and else where of diseases whereby they woulde perswade that the passions of the Demoniaks were not supernatutural but might wel proceed from some natural disease themselues do ouerthrow in affirming they are Counterseits Againe I shewing that The toyes and fooleries and blasphemous speeches vttered by the parties in their supernaturall passions could not come immediately from God and good Angels and therefore no doubt from the diuell You answer first They were not supernaturall effects but this is your Cuckow song oft auouched neuer proued with anie reason that might so much as beseeme William Sommers one too renowmed in his time Secondly that this supposed impossibilitie pag. 15. for either God or good Angels to effect any such fantasticall vaine and filthy effects is too grosse and absurd Indeed you are the Maisters of absurdities you may bestow one where you wil as this is a notable one and not to be named that one should imagine the most Holy Lord and his holy Angels should immediately by themselues worke filthy effects The blasphemies which arise from hence are not to bee remembred There is neuer any filthinesse committed but either by the filthinesse of our corrupt flesh or by the working of vncleane spirits farre be it from vs we should once let it enter into our thoughts that it did first issue either from the fountaine or froÌ„ the streames of puritie The Lord his iudgements are tied to a seemely maner of effecting rightly vnderstood which you denie that is that all his iudgements should bee effected by meanes best beseeming their nature as iudgements of committing sinne are wrought by sinfull meanes the Diuel and wicked men and such like and not immediately by holy meanes for this was to confound light and darkenesse holinesse and sinne together It is lamentable that anie carrying the name of Ministers amongst vs should be so impiously blind and yet more lamentable that they which will sit at the helme wil suffer such impieties to be offered with their authoritie to the world Thirdly you answere That these vncleane effectes do no more argue an vncleane spirit then those holy effects as Confessing of Cor. 11. 4. Christ and Expounding the Creed argue an holy spirit As if you had cleane forgotten The diuell can transforme himselfe into an Angell of light If you had remembred this and your old crosse-row That there is no reasoning from contraries in common attributes you would neuer haue bewrayed such intolerable babishnesse Lastly say you All this inferres noreall inherency because the diuel can worke greater matters then these remaining without concerning which wee Pag. 15. 16. wil see God willing in that which followeth Againe wheras is vrged the Diuels entring in going out of the partie possessed you answere All these speeches and whatsoeuer text can possibly be alleaged throughout the whole Scriptures concerning either Angels or Spirits or Diuels are to be taken metaphorically and for â—ob 1. 7. Matt. 12. 43 Pâ—t 5. 8. this purpose you bring the diuels compassing the earth his walking through drie places and his roaring like a Lyon As if because in these places there is some Metaphor therefore all other must bee metaphorical too Nay then let vs conclude because these texts of Scripture be metaphorical therefore all the Scripture is metaphoricall and not onely those mentioning Angels and Diuels And so we shal reuiue the wickednesse of the Libertines of the Family of loue and of the Suenckefeldians acknowledging no literal sence of the Scripture but a figuratiue meaning inspired into themselues which only with them is the word of God VVhen you disputed of the Serpent in Euahs tentation you contended indeed The Serpent was onely meant figuratiuely yet seemed after to reiect this opinion and I liked well of it But I crie you mercie now I vnderstand you more fully Wel then the Angel Gabriel came to Marie and brought tidings of her Luc. 1. 30. Luc. 1. 12. c. Luc. 21. 43. conceiuing the Sonne of God was this done Metaphorically Was there also no such thing literally done as is reported the same Angel spake to Zachary concerning Iohn the Baptist whom hee should beget Was that in figure too that the Angels comforted our Sauiour Mar. 9. 22. before his passion Belike when the Diuel cast the child some time into the fire sometimes into the water there was no such matter Mar. 5. 7. indeed but onely by way of Metapher And when the Diuel cried VVhat haue I to do with thee O Iesus the Sonne of the most high God this voice was Metaphoricall Howsoeuer these and many like Scriptures are canonized by you to bee Metaphoricall yet your selues Metaphor are most properly a couple of the absurdest Dunses that euer put pen to paper You goe on and labour to ouerthrow the literall entring of the Diuel because in Marke it is said There was a pag. 17. 1 19. Mar. 1. 23. man in the Synagogue in an vncleane spirit If the words say you bee taken literally then the man was essentially inherent within the diuell I answere Neither are these wordes taken literally neither for this cause is the entring of Satan mentioned else where to be vnderstood figuratiuely The same thing may bee and is vttered sometimes by figure and sometimes by proper speech One while our Sauiour Christ cals himselfe The way and a Doore In another place he saith That they which beleeue in him shall not perish expounding in plaine tearmes that which is spoken by similitude else where As for this Scripture To be in an vnclean spirit is not as a thing coÌ„tained in a thing containing as water in a vessell and such like but to be in the power of an vncleane spirit as our vulgar tongue expresseth fitly when we say Such an one is in a Feuer M. Beza in opening the meaning of this speech vseth this selfe same example and you your selues call it A very apt resemblance Seing therefore it fitteth so wel let me demaund of you when we say A man is in a Feuer whether you thinke the feuer is within or without him You had thought to haue played you with this feuer but it shaketh you a little better then you were aware