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A40523 The fall of a great visible idol by the coming of the invisible povver, and substance In this day and time of the lambs war which is come. Wherein Christ the true light is exalted at the right hand of God, who dwells and walkes in his people which are his temple. Which doth bring down the boasting baptists that hath highly exalted themselves upon the high and dark mountains of their own imaginations, as may be known by their own principles which are herein answered with something to the simple hearted that are among them, concerning water baptism and breaking of outward bread, which these baptists hath so much idolized in the night. From a true friend unto all that loves truth in the inward parts, in true love and pitty unto the lost sheep, that they may be of the house of Israel. Joseph Fuce. Fuce, Joseph. 1659 (1659) Wing F2257A; ESTC R221567 32,174 39

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say unto you that many shall come from the East and West and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Luke 16. 22. Heaven Mat. 8. ●● here Christ saith with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven and in Mat. ●● he speaketh of entering into the Kingdom and John spake of his brethren in the Kingdom Revel 1. 9. and Paul speaks of some that were come unto Mount Sion unto the City of the living God the Heavenly Jerusalem to innumerable company of Angels to the general Assembly and Church of the first born which are written in Heaven and to God the Judge of all and to the spirits of Just men made perfect Heb. 12. 22. 23. they were redeemed out of the fall up to God the Judge of all and they had received the Kingdom and were in Heaven and all that feareth the Lord truely may see the Baptists far unfit to Preach the way into the Kingdom of God seeing they are yet in the fall and Kingdom of darkness and thinking all others to be so and there they labour as may be seen by these principles of theirs to keep others in darkness and unbelief and so do not enter themselves neither would they have others to be translated into the Kingdom of the onely dear Son of God there to find rest and Peace for evermore The Baptists affirmed that no man could come into that state that Adam was created in on this side the grave Answ This is a denying Christs suffering to do the work which the Father sent him about which was to seek and to save that which was lost and to quicken man that was dead in trespasses and sins and Christ did finish the work which the Father gave him to do although the effect of the Baptists words is to deny it Now see what the Scripture saith The Son of man is come to save that which was lost Mat. 18. 11. and the Saints were saved as in 2 Tim. 1. 9. 1 Cor. 15. 2. for since by man came death by man came also the resurrection of the dead 1 Cor. 15. 21. and this the Apostles witnessed and declared unto them that had been dead in trespasses and sins on this side the grave and you hath he quickned Eph. ● ● mark for we are his workmanship created in Christ Je●●●●n●● good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them verse the 10. and so they were come out of the sin and transgression which Adam was dead in up to God again who was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself and the Law of the Spirit of life did make them free from the Law of sin and death on this side the grave and then there was no condemnation to them that were in Christ Jesus which walked not after the flesh but after the Spirit and that was on this side the grave for they could do nothing against the truth but for the truth in Christ Jesus who is the expresse Image of his Fathers Person and in him and by him was man created in Christ Jesus and the Apostle Paul said on this side the grave O death where is thy sting O grave where is thy victory the sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the Law but thanks be to God which giveth us the victory Eccl. 11. 3. through our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cor. 15. and if victory be not received on this side the grave which these Baptists speak of it will not be at all known unto them that are cut off in their sins for where the tree falleth there it lyeth whether it be towards the North or towards the south for the time is at hand he that is unjust let him be unjust still and he which is filthy let him be filthy still he that is righteous let him be righteous still and he that is holy let him be holy still Revel 2● 11. he that can receive it let him Matthew Casfin one of the Baptists affirmed that if he were in that first state that Adam was created in he should not be mortal nor thirsty sick nor weary Answ Thou that sayest neither Abraham nor Isaac nor Peter nor Paul was redeemed from the curse nor from the fall and that no man could come into that state that Adam was created in on this side the grave thou hast manifested Zach. 5. 1. 2. thy self to be yet in the fall in sin and darknes and transgression not yet come to Adams first estate which was a living soul but under the curse which is gone forth as a fiery flying rowl and in that fallen estate thou hast exalted thy self over a people to be their Teacher who counts themselves members of the Church of Christ for how canst thou tell what thou shouldst have done that art not come to Adams first estate mark yet art intruding into those things wch thou knowest not as it appeareth by thy saying thou shouldst not be mortal thirsty sick nor weary and it is no marvel to me to see such contention and confusion among those Baptists that doth own such messengers that comes in their own name which are not redeemed out of the fall into Adams first estate but art in the will worship beguiling unstable souls through thy voluntary humility intruding into those things which thou hast not seen vainly puft up by thy fleshly mind and all may read there were such Col. 2 18. and they that are not yet hardened amongst those scattered people that were once made tender by something of God in their consciences which they knew not oh I say let them with speed return their minds again to the witness in them and that will let them see how the Lords hand is and hath been much against the Baptists since they resisted the light therefore he hath scattered them so much in their imaginations that they are divided into opinions like the Priests and therefore it is high time for all people that fear the Lord to come out from among them and wait in the light of Christ which would then appear to lead them out of darkness by the footsteps of the flock toward the rest at Noon Cant. ● ● The Baptists at that meeting affirmed that the light which we Preach whom they call Quakers they do deny and trample under foot but John Lukes at a meeting soon after appealed to the light in every ones conseience which Joseph Fuce spoke of A. Here the Baptists hath declared the very cause why they are in so much confusion errours and Popish Doctrine and lies and so full of envy and bitterness of spirit against us the people of the Lord which bears witness unto the true light which is Christ seeing that they deny the light which we Preach and trample it under foot as one of their chief Teachers said but another said he appealed to the light in every ones conscience which Joseph Fuce spake of
THE FALL OF A Great Visible Idol By the coming of the INVISIBLE POWER And SUBSTANCE In this day and time of the Lambs War which is come Wherein Christ the true Light is exalted at the right hand of God who dwells and walkes in his people which are his Temple Which doth bring down the boasting Baptists that hath highly exalted themselves upon the high and dark mountains of their own imaginations as may be known by their own principles which are herein answered with something to the simple hearted that are among them concerning water baptism and breaking of outward bread which these Baptists hath so much Idolized in the night Thus saith the Lord cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his Arm and whose heart departeth from the Lord for he shall be like the heath in the desert and shall not see when good co●●eth Jer 17. 5. 6. And blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord and whose hope the Lord is Jer. 17. 7 for it is the spirit that quickneth the flesh presiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life John 6. 63. From a true friend unto all that loves truth in the inward parts in true love and pitty unto the lost sheep that they may be of the house of Israel Joseph Fuce London Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate 165● This is to the Reader that he may the better understand NOw first of all before thou comest to the matter hereafter written thou art to be turned unto a measure of the true light in thy own conscience and with it to search thine own heart and to see whether there be not envie or prejudice lodging in thee against the way of truth which hath been so abominably abused and evil spoken of as if it were the most damnable Heresie that ever was declared in so much that people hath often been stirred up by their Teachers into a great rage against the truth before they know it or hath heard us declare it or seen our writings so as to understand the matter and therefore if there be any of the envious ones leaven in thee let that be laid aside and wait thou in the light not turning to the one hand nor yet to the other not joyning with me nor against me before thou doest understand rightly the things there spoken of in love to thy poor soul but wait in the pure fear of the Lord to feel the Power of God to arise within and rent the vail which hath been over thy heart that so the measure of the true light may come up in thee to bare rule so as to give thee the true knowledge and the right understanding for happy is the man that findeth wisdom and the man that getteth understanding for it is better then the gain of gold and except the light make these things manifest thou canst not understand this which I have spoken of in the wisdom of God which I have received this knowledge cometh a far off the wisdom of the flesh there●ore I will ascribe wisdom and righteousness unto my Maker for he that is perfect in knowledge is with God the fountain of wisdom true knowledge and verily I shall leave the truth of my words to answer the witness in thy own conscience and be thou so honest to thy own soul before thou judgest to try these things aright with that which will not lie in thee that is the true ballance and just weight that weigheth things a right that so thou mayest come to be perswaded in thy own minde who are in the truth it self that gives true peace unto the soul and who are in the profession of the truth without the possession in the hypocrisie but have no true peace And truely I have seen the hypocrisie and great deceit of those Baptists many times at several places where they have opposed the very life of truth withal the strength and subtilty they have received from the wicked one to deceive the hearts of the simple even to the grieving of my soul to think that ever these Baptists should so impudently gainsay the truth and life of what they prosess in words and often I have been moved of the Lord in the power of the spirit to reprove them for their lies and false accusations which they have brought against us that witness forth the truth against their deceit and when I have so done I have had peace in the light and did not desire nor think to lay their wickedness open unto the world in Print but rather desired they should have owned reproof and repented and have turned unto the Lord in time as some hath done that did walk with them but they have despised reproof and hated instruction and set themselves against the light and spirit of the Lord until his anger is kindled against them And now seeing how they have set themselves against the truth and will not cease to pervert the right way in going on in their d●ceit bending their tongues like a bow for lyes thereby to deceive the hearts of the simple Therefore the Lord hath put it into my heart to begin to lay open their wickedness in Print for the truths sake and in true love and pitty to the poor simple-hearted people that they may not run so rashly into their snares to go with them they know not whether until their steps take hold on Hell for they have openly denied the true light as is hereafter mentioned and they that walk in darkness know not whether they go and therefore thou that lovest thy own Souls peace be warned in time to weigh things rightly with that which is a Just weight and true Measure in thy own Conscience so mayest thou come to be perswaded in thy own mind who are in the right way and then let the light be thy guide in it to walk that so thou mayest come in due time to have peace with God in the Covenant of light and life for evermore At a Meeting at Nethurst upon the 24th of the 6th Month 1659. appointed by Matthew Caffin Baptist but there were several of the chief Baptists in all these South parts namely William Jeffery Matthew Caffin John Parsons William Steel and several others of Kent and Sussex It was pretended by the Baptists there to shew the cause wherefore they could not joyn with the Quakers as they with other scoffers in these last times call us the People of the Lord but in stead of proving any Just cause why they do not own and joyn with us they gave sufficient cause for us and all that fear the Lord to deny them and to have no fellowship with them except they repent And the cause they gave us at this Meeting and at other places was those errours damnable heresies and lyes which are hereafter mentioned and answered as moved by the Spirit of love to all the simple-hearted people that doth
desire to walk in the way of truth unto Zion the City of the living God where Peace is to be enjoyed for evermore FIrst the Baptist affirmed That the Eternal Spirit that was in Christ was not the Saviour of the world Answ Here they deny the true God to be the Saviour of the world who was in Christ the Authour of Eternal Salvation the ground and foundation of all truth who is a Spirit and is Eternal and God the Father and Christ the Son whose Name is called the Word of God and the Eternal Spirit or Holy Ghost are one and the Father was in the Son and the Son was in the Father John 14. 11. and he that hath seen the Son hath ●oh 10. 30 seen the Father and God who is the onely Invisible and Eternal Spirit saved all the holy men of God in the dayes of old since the beginning and when the old world was drowned God saved Noah 2 Pet. 2. 5. and the Eternal God said by the Prophet Isaiah Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth for I am God and there is none else Isa 45. 22. there is no God effectual besides the Eternal Spirit that is a Just God and a Saviour vers 21. and this Saviour said I even I am the Lord and besides me there is no Saviour Isa 43. 11. And the Apostle said The Lord is the Spirit 2 Cor. 3. 17. and this Eternal God who is a Spirit was he that saved all the holy men of God and they both Prophets and Apostles called God their Saviour 1 Tim. 4. 10. Titus 7. 3. and this Everlasting God and Eternal Spirit that was the ● Pet. 1. 1. ●ude 25. onely Saviour of all the holy men of God the Apostle said to wit That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself 2 Cor. 5. 19. and Christ was in God and sometime the Apostle called Christ Lord and Saviour and they also called God their Saviour for they were one in the beginning before the world was but the Baptists doth not see how Christ ●ut the bo●y without ●he Spirit is dead ●am 2. 26. and God are one as one of them said and therefore denies the Eternal Spirit that was and is in Christs body to be the Saviour and so blaspemously hath denied both the Father and the Son and there is no Saviour besides the Eternal Spirit which was God manifest in the flesh and if any should read this and not perceive the things of God and so not believe the Words of truth read the 13th of Hosea and 14th verse were God saith Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt and thou shalt know no God but me for there is no Saviour beside me and all those that readeth this with a right understanding may see and perceive the Baptists to be ignorant of the Power of God and also of the Scriptures which doth so largely speak of that God that was in Christ to be the onely Saviour but time might fail us to bring all those Scriptures which doth speak of God to be the Saviour Baptists Affirmed That Christ was not come to them yet the second time nor yet to any man upon the face of the earth Answ Here the Baptists hath manifested themselves openly to be Reprobates according to the Scripture and therefore it is no marvel why they oppose the light in others so much seeing they deny Christ the light to be come to them the second time and there were such in the Apostles dayes that sought a proof of Christ speaking in the Apostle Paul who said unto them Examine your selves whether ye be in the Faith prove your own selves know you not your own selves how that Jesus Christ is in you except ye be Reprobates 2 Cor. 13. 5. and now you may see the Baptists yea the very chief among them are Reprobates out of the Faith the Saints were in who preached Christ in them the Hope of Glory and said He is come that is true and they were in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ and so they that did receive him at his coming to dwell in them he gave them an understanding how to preach him up in others and also in Heaven at the right hand of God but they that do not know him come to them they do not know him in any other Creature in Heaven or in earth and where the true Christ the Son of God who is a quickning Spirit doth not Rule there the Antichrist ruleth the son of perdition ruleth the old man of sin reigneth in them and over them and he maketh them subject to sin and now Antichrist is come up very high in these Baptists and he doth appear very bold in them insomuch that they deny the true Christ to be come the second time to them or to any other Creature but the Scripture is so far a witness against them that all the moderate people may see that they are ignorant of the things of God and also of the Scriptures and so altogether unfit to preach unto others for how can any truly preach Christ to come to others that doth not know him come unto themselves Paul was a persecutor before he knew Christ revealed in him but after it pleased God to reveal his Son in him then he was fit to preach the manner of his coming in others Gal. 1. 16. and Christ said unto his Disciples he dwelleth with you and shall be in you I will not leave you comfortless I will come to you John 14. 18. and John in his Epistle said We know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ 1 John 5. 20. here John said he is come but the Baptists saith he is not come and so are out of the Faith and Doctrine that the Apostles were in and John spake of such false prophets that were entred into the world as these Baptists are who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh this is a deceiver and an Antichrist 2 John 7. Mark he doth not say there he that denies that he was come or shall come but he saith who confess not that he is come in the flesh Mark that for both Papists and other Priests and the Baptists and we do all believe that he did come in the flesh and was crucified without the Gates of Jerusalem and also that he shall come at the last day to Judge the quick and the dead according to the Scriptures but this is the great controversie which we have with all those about this matter that is whether Jesus Christ be manifested or come in the flesh now according to the Scripture but all that resist the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world they resist the true Christ which the Apostles and we say