and minutes Theophilus Thou séest howe hée is already iudged and yet hée is not He is sufficiently iudged and condemned as to himselfe sith that he hath his conscience his confession his witnesse and his processe against himselfe and that he accompteth himselfe alredy as dead But neuerthelesse there is yet a more greater horror to be brought to iudgemeÌ„t to heare the sentence of his Iudge to be condemned and executed openly notwithstanding that he is already sufficiently condemned being in the prison yet neuertheles the Iudge must pronounce openly his last sentence that his iudgement be put in execution As much may wée say of the Diuels and reprobate Whilest that the wicked doe liue héere in this worlde they are lyke vnto malefactors before that they are apprehended and taken When God calleth them from this worlde hée cyteth them before hym â—or to appeare in iudgement And they are as though they were cast in prison lookinge for their latter sentence which shall bee giuen them in that great â—aye in which all processe all causes and appeales shall ende Beholde the cause wherefore Sainct Peter maketh mention of the bondes and chaines with which GOD bindeth y diuels which he hath reserued to his iudgemeÌ„t vsing humaine and materiall comparisons for to declare vnto vs y heauenly spirituall things That is the cause wherefore the wicked spirites doe pray vnto Iesus Christ that hée will not sende them into the déepe complaininge and lamentinge bicause that they did féele by his comming their iudgement to approch nigh And therefore they cried O Iesu thou sonne of Dauid art thou come hether to torment vs before our time be come We cannot doubt but that they were already tormented before as the malefactor which is in the â—â—ockes and chaines But they haue dreadful feare when they do sée their Iudge and that they doe féele their last sentence to drawe nigh Thomas It is to be meruailed at how the one of the matters bringeth in the other and giueth vnderstandinge of it Thou hast deliuered me from one great doubt thou hast instructed me how I ought to aunswere vnto a very hard question the which was propunded vnto me not long a goe that is to say If after that the soule is seperated from the body whether y it goeth straight way into Paradise or into hell For if it goeth into Paradise or into hell it seemeth that the iudgement is alredy done that we must tary no longer for it or if we ought to looke and tary for an other that y soules of the faithfull or vnfaythfull haue not yet a place assigned vnto them for to receyue felicitie or malediction And therefore some doe saye that they sleepe vntill that great iourney But thou hast taken from mée the doubt and hast satisfied mee thorowly Theophilus Wee must not bee abashed althoughe those that sleepe doe dreame But we ought rather to bee abashed to see those that be awake to dreame and to beleeue and giue credite vnto the dreames of the sleepers For if it were so the woorkes of God agaynst their nature should rather diminish then increase and thâ— faythfull ought more to feare the corporall de 〈◊〉 then thâ— vnfaythfull For by the death the vnfaythfull should bée at rest and the faythfull shoulde bée depriued from that portion of the eternall felicitie the which they haue alredy tasted off in this world the which they ought to haue mor amply after that they be delyuered from the prison of this mortall body I beléeue most assureâ—ly that if Sainct Paul had thought that hée must haue slepte so longe 〈◊〉 in bodye and soule after his decease wythout hauing more â—â—â—ple fruition of the heauenly goodnesse and ioyes then hée had in this worlde that hée would neuer haue sayde What to choose I wotto not I am constrayned of two thinges I desire to be loosed and to bee wyth Christ which thing is best of all Neuerthelesse to abyde in the fleshe is more néedfull for you For in stéede to receyue more greater goodnesse as hée desired hée was â—â—mpayred and made worse and that portion of the heauenlye goodnesse that hée had already tasted off lyuing in thys bodye was better for him then to bée altogether spoyled of it and to sléepe beeing insensible as a stone two or thrée thousande yeares Hillarius Cycero was but a Panim and an heathen man who was not very certeine nor assured of the eternall lyfe nor perfectly resolued of the immortalytie of the soules but yet neuerthelesse hee sayth that he would not lyue nyntie yeares in such sorte that after that he had depassed thrée score yeares hée shoulde sléepe the residue of nentie yeares But whiche is more hée addeth is that matter the Hogges woulde not desyre that muche lesse I By that accompte hée esteemeth the lyfe of Hogs better then that of man all the whyle as hée abydeth a sléepe bycause that the sleeper is an Image of death the whiche alwayes representeth hymselfe in sléeping Theophilus And therefore I dooe conclude that notwithstandinge that the Lorde by hys prouydence hath constituted and appointed that the bodyes doe sléepe in the earth as in their hedde vntyll the resurrectyon that the number of their bretheren shal be fulfilled yet neuertheles the faithful nor the vnfaithfull neuer are without their Paradise their hell the which the more as they doe approch to their consummation ende so much y more doe they encrease augment vntill such time as they are come vntill the latter degrée of felicitâ—e or infelicitie beneâ—iction or malediction Thomas After the same manner as thou procéedest thou wilt leaue vs neither Lymbe nor Purgatory Theophilus As touching the Lymbe if one doe take it for the bosome of Abraham and the condition of the â—uncient fathers which haue bene before the comming of Iesus Christ I will not much dispute of the wordes if we agrée in the thing I am well contented to confesse that the condition of the auncientes as well those that bée lining as those that bée dead compared vnto ours in respect of the same may be estéemed as a prison in price of a palaice If we doe beholde the shadowes and figures vnder whose darknesse they haue bene deteyned and kept in respect of vs and the seruitude and bondage of the Mosaicall lawe vsinge suche comparisons as Sainct Paul who compareth all this auncient people vnto young children which are vnder their Tutor and Master and vnto seruauntes which are vnder the feare of their Master in comparison of the Christian people the which hée compaseth vnto the true natural perfect children which are already out of boÌ„dage gouernment saying that they haue not receiued y spirit of bondage feare but the spirit of adoption of libertie Vpon which we ought to note y the Apostle denieth not simply but that those good auncient fathers haue had the same spirit of
full resolution they will fall vppon this sence Although that Iesus Christ be dead as touching his flesh body and humanitie yet neuerthelesse he is quickened by the spirite that is to say by his eternall vertue and diuine power by the which hee is not onely risen from death but also hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh and hath tourned death into lyfe quickening by the same all those which were dead thorow sinne And to the ende that none should dispise Iesus Christ bicause that he is dead and was crucified as a vyle and an abiect person he declared that he is so dead that there is no lyfe but in his death and that none can lyue but by him and that he is not onely to day but euerlasting and that by the same spirite and diuine and eternall vertue he is already an other time come vnto the worlde and hath iudged and condempned the rebells the proude and peruerse spirits oppressed with wicked spirites which were not vnder their kéeping but did sléepe not thinking on the iudgement of god vntil such time as the floud ouerwhelmed and drowned them as he doth yet at this present by that same spyrite by the which hée Iudgeth an condempneth the world and saueth and quickeneth his elect euen as he did in the time of Noe. Hillarius It seemeth that that exposition is also a little vyolated far fetched neuerthelesse it commeth not euill to purpose but séemeth to agrée well inough to the letter of the text of S. Peter Theophilus Bicause that the place is obscure hard I dare not to define pronounce of it rashly But I would gladly put forth these expositions to that ende you may iudge of theÌ„ for to awake the spirits for to finde out some better thing Neuertheles I thinke that this héere is the simplest that is to say that S. Peter willing to shew foorth the efficacie vertu of Iesus Christ of his death and passion witnesseth that it was so great that the lyuing haue not onely felt perceiued it but the dead also vnto whom it is come But in what manner or after what sort How is it communicated vnto vs and all his giftes and graces but by his spirite and diuine vertue Euen as then by his spirite he hath giuen vnto vs his quickening flesh which is vnto vs spirite and lyfe and hath communicated vnto vs his vertue so hath he manifested himselfe by the same spirite vnto the deade both during their lyse and after their death For it is sayde of Abraham that he did sée the day of the Lord and reioyced If he hath then already during this mortal lyfe felt the efficacie and vertue of Iesus Christ long time before that he didde offer his eternall sacrifice wée cannot doubt but that he and all the others which were in his bosome haue felte it more fully when he did manifest himselfe more fully By this we may well vnderstand whereto this place can serue to proue Purgatory For if the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ be of such efficacie that it goeth vnto the dead what néede haue we then of Masses and Suffrages of the Priests for to comfort the dead and to apply vnto them the merits of Iesus Christ sith that none can do it but he himself by the vertue of his spirite which quickeneth the quicke and the dead Now hée calleth that manifestacion predication not that he hath preached verbally or by mouth towards the dead such as is among the lyuing but bicause that euen as by the preaching and Euangelycall ministring Iesus Christ is manifested vnto vs and doe feele the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion Also the spirits of the dead haue theirs but in their maner and such as apperteineth vnto them euen as we doe vnderstande that God gaue himselfe to his Angells to be knowen and to make them tast of his bountie and goodnesse but by an other meane then vnto vs bicause that their condition was contrary We must not then dreame out a Lymbe and a materiall prison and a locale descending of the spirite of Iesus Christ into hell and a preaching such as wée haue But wée must vnderstande all those things spiritually For as it is not néedfull that Iesus Christ should descend locally from heauen for to make vs feele his vertue so it is not necessary to descend into hell For the vertue of his spirite is such that it filleth heauen and earth and is spread abrode euery where Hillarius As I thinke our dreaming Theologians had very much leasure wheÌ„ they setled themselues to dispute whether the soule of Iesus Christ did suffer in the hell Amongest the which some of them are founde to bée of opinion that he did Theophilus If they had wel vnderstanded that which Iesus Christ sayd vnto the théefe This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise and how Iesus Christ descended into hell when his soule was sorrowfull and in anguish euen vnto the death and that he hath dronken vp the cup of the wrath and furor of God and hath borne his iudgement and our malediction and curse and the dampnation due vnto our sinnes insomuch that he was stroken beaten of God hath suffered death after which he descended into the sepulchre or graue they should not haue néeded againe to make the soule of Iesus Christ to descend from Paradise in which it was for to goe into hell For it is sufficiently giuen vnto the spirites of his elect to vnderstand which haue receiued consolation and vnto those of the reprobate declaringe vnto them from what goodnesse they were depriued without descending or assending Eusebius To what purpose then doth he speake of the prison and what other thing can hée vnderstand but the Lymbe of which it is also spoken in Zachery saying I haue let thy prisoners out of the pit where is no water Theophilus By the Words of Zachery the Lord giueth vs to vnderstand none other thing but that by the bleud of the alliance that he hath made with Syon he will deliuer his people that are captiue kept in the bottom of all miseries By the prisoners he vnderstandeh his people that bée in captiâ—itie by y euils he vnderstandeth a captinitie a goulse and bottome of all miserye from which it is not possible for them to come out by any meanes if God doe not delyuer them himselfe Therefore he calleth it Welles for to declare the depth yea yet without water in which one cannot swimme to the ende they may the better knowe their miserie and the grace and mercy of God towardes them When S. Peter did speake of the prison of the spirits he did it for to amplyfie the better the grace of the Gospell comparing those which wer vnder the seruitude bondage of the law vnder those shadows figures vnto those which shall be in a prison in
that are aliue And the first thing that we must haue when one dyeth are the torches to leade hym to hye graue And all the yeare after wée must haue Candels lighted vpon his Sepulcher and after to offer them vnto the Priestes Hillarius It is bicause they sée not Thomas Whom do you meane the Priests or those that bée dead Hillarius Both the one the other We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes haue lost their sight that they are in darkenesse as touching their body But neuerthelesse the shining and brightnesse of the torches serueth them to no pourpose I thincke also that the soule hath no neede of them For if it goe into Paradise it hath the Angels to carry it thether as the soule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams bosome For that hath light inough and the Angels also wyth the brightnesse of god Wherefore they haue not to doe wyth our light that cannot serue for the soule but for the body onely If the soule goe into hell there are guides inough for to bring it thether and it is not nowe necessary that we do giue light to it It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether Thomas But if it go into Purgatory for that it is so déep hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through those darke places Hillarius If that which they saye bée true there is fire inough without putting any more vnto it And if that fire bée not sufficient for them I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giue light there For if the Sunne beames and his brightnesse cannot enter and pearce through what may wée hope of our fire You may then vnderstande by these reasons that all these lights serue nothinge at all for the dead nor profite them neither for the body nor yet the soule It must be then that they doe profite the Priestes or els it is a lost labour But wherein can they serue for them For if they bee blinde and that the Sunne light helpeth them not no more shall they see by the illumination of the torches and candels If they doe see cléere inough they haue no néede for the cléerenesse of the Sunne ought to suffice them except they buryed them in the nyght as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe Thomas It must then bée that they are eyther madde out of their wyt or els that they would shew by the same that those that do such things are fooles and depriued of all vnderstanding Hillarius I thincke that they would do as Diogenes did who at noone dayes lighted a candle and did séeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne Thomas To what pourpose dyd hée the same Hillarius For to make men to vnderstande that they were beastes wythout reason and vnderstanding and that hée had much a doe to finde men that is to saye wyse men both of wit and iudgement although hée sought them with a lanterns Should hée not haue more occasion to doe the same nowe at this present time For to what ende do all those lights serue but for to declare that we are the successours of the Panims who after the same sort vsed torches and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead For we haue not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true seruauntes of God haue lighted candels for the dead Nor that they were euer in such superstition Also we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée sprinkle the graues of the dead is also taken of the immitation of the Panims Theophilus I doubt it not It is very true that the auncient people of God had certeine washings certeine baptismes for their purifications not that they did thinck that the filthinesse and vncleanenesse of the soule conscience could be washed made cleane by the water corruptible Elements For sith that the soule is a spirit it must haue a spirituall purgation agreeing to his nature and not corporall Thomas What profit then do they receiue of such ceremonies Theophilus They did the same for to testifie witnesse that they were sinners polluted vncleane and that they had need of a purgation the which they could not finde in themselues but muste séeke it of others Forasmuch then as they acknowledge themselues sinners and in makinge open confession by those exteriour and outwarde washings and do witnesse that the bloude of Iesus Christ was necessarie for them for the washinge awaye of their sins they pleased by that obedience and confession God and by the faith that they had in Iesus Christ â—figured by those ceremonies and sacramentes whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour They did truely communicate the bloud of Iesus which for them ought to haue bene shed as wée doe by the baptisme sauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead nor sprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water Hillarius Wée reade that the heathen Priestes vsed in their purgations the water of the sea with which they sprinckled that which they would purge Of which Proclus that noble Philosopher the Platonist yeldeth the reason saying that such water hath the propertie to purge bicause it is salt and that the salt hath in it some portion of the fire and holdeth somewhat of his Nature That same maketh mée to thincke that our Priestes for that same cause dyd put salte in their holy Water For before they dyd coniure the Water they dyd first coniure the salte and after dyd put it into the Water Thomas They dyd it after the example of Eliseus Theophilus But Eliseus dyd not cast the salt into the water for to coniure the Diuels there wyth but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane bicause that it was infected and poisoned so much y none could drincke of it And notwithstanding that Eliseus dyd put salte in it yet neuerthelesse the salt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculously As it is declared by the applications of the thinges which Iesus Christ vsed as in putting the spittle vpon the tongues of those that were dumme for to make them speake or vpon the eyes of the blinde for to make them see or wythin the eares of those that were deafe for to make them heare not bicause that hée coulde not dooe that wythout suche applications as hée hath very well declared in a great many other of his woorkes For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onely either by the hand as the leapers or by y gowne as y woman which was diseased with the issue of bloude and others without either séeing
by those words that the body of man and all that which is in the fleshe and the vices therein is giuen for meate to the Serpent whom they do call Azazell lord of the fleshe and the bloud and Prince of that world saying that he is also called in Leuiticus the Prince of the deserts Sith then that our body is created and made of the slime and dust of the earth and that the earth is giuen for meat vnto the serpent they conclude thereby that our bodies are subiect vnto him and in his power vntill such time as they be sanctified and that the earthly fleshe bee transformed and changed into a spirituall nature And therfore say they that that body hath neede both in his buriall whilest that he is in this earth to be purified sanctified through prayers sacrifices encensements exorcismes coniurations and other ceremonies fit for the same Theophilus Durand in that booke wherein he yeldeth the reason of all the popish ceremonies speaking of the office and burying of the dead allegeth the same reasons and almost nothing differeth from the Iewes and Cabalistes Wherein we may well know that the supersticious christians followe more the Iewish and Cabalisticall doctrine then the Christian and Apostolicall doctrine For Durand himselfe is compelled to confesse that the bodies of the dead are encensed and sprinkled with holy water not to that end that they are purged and deliuered from their sinnes which could not then by such things be defaced put out But to the ende that the wicked spirites and theyr presence should be dryuen away And therefore saith hée that in some places they do put of the the holy water into the tombe or graue with the fire and encense and that the holy water is put there to the eâ—de that the diuell shoulde not come neere for he doth feare it very much Hillarius It hath bene well declared and proued by Fryer Gyles that holy Cordelier vnto whom the diuel appeared so terrible that he could not speake for feare And as the diuell came vppon him and greeued him muche Fryer Giles could not arise but did creepe as well as hee coulde vnto a vessell wherein was holy water wherewith hee sprinkled himselfe and was incontinently deliuered from that feare that the diuell did vnto him Theophilus Behold a good proofe the holy water hath then more vertue and power then Iesus Christe and the faith in him or els that Fryer Gyles had no faith which is the buckler and shield wherewith the Apostle teacheth vs to resist the diuell I do muche meruaile where God hathe commauÌ„ded to driue away the diuell by water and when the true seruants of God haue vsed such weapons aginste the diuell Hillarius At the leastwise they must prouide for him a boate if they would driue him awaye by water Theophilus When the witnes of the scripture faileth it must néedes be that those maisters of ceremonies haue then recourse vnto fables But for to returne againe vnto the reasons of Durand he addeth moreouer that in what soeuer place the christians shal be buried out of the churchyarde they ought to set alwayes a crosse at his head For the diuell doth feare very much that signe dareth not to come nigh the place where he seeth the crosse Hillarius That is bicause that the earth which is out of the church yard is not coniured Wherby it hath not so much vertue And therfore in recoÌ„pence they do ad y crosse for to driue away the diuell Theophilus For y same cause do they also coniure y earth of y churchyard For as they do witnes affirme the diuels haue vsed to get theÌ„ vnto the dead bodies and to exercise their cruelty and vengeaunce against them and inforce themselues to do vnto them at the least wise after that they are dead that whiche they could not do whilest they were aliue Furthermore they say that at the day of iudgement our Lorde Iesus Christe will say vnto them that present themselues vnto him that whiche be aunswered vnto the disciples of the Herodians and Pharises when they asked of him the question of the tribute and that they had shewed vnto him the money and Image of Cesar Euen so will he say vnto those whose is this Image what money is this Then those which shal be marked with the crosse shal be knowen to bee good christian money And Iesus Christ will say that whiche is Cesars that is to say vnto the diuell giue it him that which is vnto God giue it to God. Hillarius I am abashed if the diuell dares carrye away those which haue made vppon them the signe of the materiall crosse especially the priestes and moonks whiche are all hyd and couered with them Are not these goodly reasons and most worthy of such diuines Eusebius Yea those are Godly reasons what will you say to the contrary do ye thinke that soe manye wise men which haue bene in the churche haue not well considered the causes wherefore they ought to do that And that it hath not ben ordeyned without good iust reason Theophilus Thou hast heard them and thou hast also the Iewes Cabalists and Panyms for to be the firste authors of them But those dreames are yet more tollerable and worhty of pardon then those here bycause that hauing the braine full of false opinions and inchauntments they feare least the enchauntors Magitians and especially the coniurers and the diuell with them should abuse their bodies thorow their enchauÌ„tments necromances witchcraft But what excuse or coloure can the christians haue who ought to be assured of their saluation in Iesus Christ as wel for the body as for the soule vsing such ceremonies which I may truly call charmes inchauntements magicall supersticions and purifications and not euangelical For although that the earth hath bene giuen for meate to the serpent and that our bodies are taken of the earth how will God permit and suffer that that olde serpent shall defile those bodyes whiche haue bene the Temple habit ation of his holy ghost And whiche haue bene consecrated vnto him thorow the bloud of his sonne Iesus Christ and sanctified thorow his spirite haue the water and the earth which are bewitched and charmed after the manner as the enchaunters charmers do their exorcisms coniurations and a corruptible and a materiall crosse more vertue then the consecration of our bodies and soules whiche Iesus Christ the great and soueraigne Byshoppe and eternall Priest hath done by his bloud and the liuely water of his holy spirit and the baptisme that we haue receyued in his name And if we as good christians haue borne the crosse with him that is to say the troubles and aduersities of this world in all patience and haue put all our hope and trust in the merite of his death passion reioysing our selues only in his crosse as the holy apostle saith
the resurrection For then the habite shall be cleane rotten and I do not beléeue that it shall arise with the body and that those which are dead in the same shall arise agayne clothed in a Cordelier For it shall not be then time to make maskes and daunce the morish There is neyther the habite of Fraunces Dominicke nor of any Moonke whatsoeuer he be nor any thing that man can muent and dreame which can serue vs any thing before the face of that great Iudge of the quicke of the dead no more then the Fig leanes serued Adam for to couer him before him but that hée will sée all our filthinesse and abhominations if they hée not couered and hid with the righteousnes and innocencie of Iesus Christ Wherefore if we will appeare clothed and not naked before his maiestie it must be that he himselfe doe cut out and make the apparayle and habite wherewith we must be clothed as he did make vnto Adam and and Eue. And therfore we must follow the counsaile of the Apostle who exhorteth vs to put off the olde man and to put on not y habite of Fraunces or Dominicke but our Lur Lord Iesus Christ For that is an habite which serueth both to the body and to the soule and which delyuereth from the iudgement of god That is the holy water the lights bells sencings and candells which delyuereth our bodies soules from the power of the serpent whose head he hath broken That is the water of lyfe which rayseth vs vnto eternall lyfe which washeth and maketh cleane our consciences That is the true fire of Purgatorye and furnayce in which the olde Adam is melted and made newe and the newe man purged from all his filthynesse and simes Wherefore I doe giue counsell vnto you all that you take good héede that such treasure be not stollen from you and that you trust not to the good déeds which those that be alyue shall doe for you after that you are dead But that you doe putte your trust in Iesus Christ and declare and shew foorth the vertue and efficacie of your fayth thorow charitie and good workes which doe serue to the glory of God to the edyfiyng of his Church and the vtilytie of our neighbour and that you follow the example of the true seruaunts of God and the doctrine which the holy Ghost by them hath giuen vnto vs not the Gentiles and Panims and the false pyophets seducers which haue altogether turned vpside downe the Christian Religion and haue conuerted it not only into Iewishnes but also into panimrie witchcraft sorcertee Eusebius You haue spoken as it pleaseth you but I must néeds auniswere you For if you dispute plead all alone you may easely winne the victory Hillarius We desire none other thing then to heare thy reasons but wée haue forgotten one of the princiyall poynts For we haue not yet demaunded of Thomas the cause wherfore he would go to saint Patricke the which I desire glady to know Thomas I haue determined with my selfe many times to tel you but I desire to heare first what Eusebius can say agaynst you Wherefore I doe thinke it best that forasmuch as all these dayes there is none of vs which is so greatly occupyed but that wée may giue him the next day for his reuenge to aunswere And after that I haue hearde all you I will declare vnto you y meruaylous fantastes which I haue in my head Hillarius I beléeue that there is none of vs but that he is of that opinion Theophilus In stéede where others doe passe awaye the time in playing and other vayne occupations whereoff commeth no profite I finde it better that we vse such recreations which bring no hurt vnto any man but may much serue and profite vs For in so doing we learne the one the other and doe examine the things together the better to knowe how to render a reason of our Law and Religion besides that we learne some honest recreation together the which is better agreeing with our estate then to remayne idle without doing any thing or in losing the time in beholding foolysh playes and maskes or in banketting and in bestowing great expences yet to the hurte and domame of our bodyes and soules or vnto sléeping and as beastes to giue our selues onely vnto pleasures as many doe And although that all wée may bée occupied in other mens affaires eyther publicke or domesticall which woulde better serue for the pursse and for the perticular gayne profite yet neuertheles one cannot be alwaies attētife in great affaires without hauing some intermission and relaxation of the spirite And wée must not be so couetous after the gayne and the perticular profite that at no time we should haue leasure to speake and falke of the things of God and that thorow honest pleasures and recreations we may not refresh our wits and spirites and prepare them agayne to the great affaires to which God hath called vs all according to the grace that we haue receyued of him Thomas There is nothing more certeyn then that which thou sayst and I would not for a great thing but that I had bene with you and to haue heard that which I haue heard Hillarius Wée shall knowe in the ende what tast thou hast had therein Yet neuerthelesse I doe more feare leaste that Eusebius bée more offended then thou But I trust notwithstandinge that the hope that he hath of the victory will giue him courage and boldnesse to come agayne the more willyngly ¶ A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL matters of the first parte of the Dialogues A. ABuses are not yet inough vncouered made knowne fol. 16 Accipe sal sapientae 35. Aduenturers 47. Adams apparell 114. Affectators of languages what affections the Gospel doth permit 67. Alexander the firste inuentiour of holye water 35. Alexandrines 66. Alexander Seuerus Emperour 43. Ambrose and Theodosius 78. Ambition of Alexander 13. Anacharsis 5. Angells the ministers of the faithful 103. Anniuer saries 25. Antipopes and Schisutaticks 88. Apes requisite in the court of Babilon 19. Apes of Iesus Christ 35. Apothegme of Diogenes 60. Applications of Iesus Christ 34 Arithiuettcians and schoole of Arithineticke 42. Aristoxenus 70. The art to learn priests to be sober 39. All artes disciplines the handmaidens of holy letters or bookes 6. Auarice of the Romaines 41. Auernus 90. The authors instituters of funeralls 100. B. Bables of fooles 8. Bay tree 75. Bactrianians and Hireanians 58. Bacchus 33. 13 Babilon taken 93. Bagpipe of Sathau 106. Banner and the crosse 73. Baptisine 41. Baptisines and wasshings of the Iewish people 34. Baptising of bells 73. Bathes 45. Bathing place of the dead 36. Battayle of the diuell agaynst dead bodyes 102. Belles and Images the Priests vicars 71. Bells doe speake all languages 72. Bells to driue away the dwells 73. Bellyes that are shoughtfull 74. Benedictio bladi salis ouerum 42. Benedictio
works in vs For nothing pleaseth him but Iesus Christ his welbeloued sonne in whom he deliteth and no workes can be found agréeable but his For there is no goodnesse but in him Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs we must séeke â— borrow it of him And if we will that our works be pleasing vnto God it is necessary that Iesus Christ do them in vs thorow his holy spirite or otherwise the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good nor yet giue vnto them reward Eusebius I doe greately doubt that in magnifiyng so much the grace and mercy of God and the efficacie of the death and passion of Iesus Christe you giue occasion vnto many to doe euill without euer caring to do any good workes For if that men haue once this opinion that they are saued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God and that they cannot merite paradise by their good works what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not serue them no more then the euill Theophilus I do feare moreouer that the doctrin which thou holdest doth induce and leade them vnto that which thou sayest For how many hath there bene who hauing that opinion to satisfie in Purgatorye for their sinnes haue giuen themselues vnto al vices during their life hoping that they will prouide so well to their affaires that for golde and siluer they shal be incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead And so by that meanes they did thinke that it was not néedefull to studye to doe good workes For they did hope to finde in their purse all that that shoulde bée néedefull for theyr saluation But for asmuche as it is a question touchinge good workes whom doest thou thinke can doe them best eyther the seruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulsion who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his master or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde or the sonne who thorow an entier loue towards his father and taketh pleasure in none other thing but to serue and honoure him wel bicause of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath reâ—â—ed and doth receiue daily of him without any seruile feare but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him Eusebius There is no doubt that those whiche serue onely for feare to be punished or for hope of rewarde cannot serue faithfully nor lawfully but are as the seruaunts which serue to please the eye and do good seruice whilest that the master is present notwithstanding they haue no good will towards him Theophilus Yet neuertheles those which do follow the doctrine the which thou holdest are altogether like vnto those here For either they do giue themselues altogether to their pleasures and delites hoping that they will satisfie by money for their sinnes and redéeme themselues or if they studie to doé well they doe it not but thorow feare as a subiect doth serue a Tyraunt fearing â—o fall into his hands or as Merconaries Hirelings not for the loue they haue to god but for the loue they haue to themselues And so by that meanes eyther they do make GOD like vnto a cruel Tyraunt or to a polling Iudge théefe who for money absolueth the euill doers and as a companion of théeues taketh his parte of the hootie with them or els they make themselus god doe worship the workes of their handes sith that by them they do saue themselues and merite Paradise Wherefore they haue no néede of Iesus Christ I demaund of thee which art but a sinful man if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do vnto thée seruice only for y feare that he hath of thée least thou shouldest do vnto him hurt or for hope that he should haue to feare thée better wout which hee would make none accompt of thée nor would not set by thée Eusebius I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin which loueth more his belly theÌ„ me of whoÌ„ he is a friend not of me Theophilus And yet neuertheles if thou dost wel consider the nature of the Hipocrits Pharises who do attribute somuch vnto their workes thou shouldest finde them of such an amitye towardes God for whose loue they doe not that they do but for the loue of theÌ„selues and doe not serue god but after y manner as the beastes do serue men or for the feare that they haue to be beaten or for the nurrishment and foode that they doe receiue But without staying our selues anye longer vppon that pointe let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe sith that thou puttest the Limbe for the one and Purgatory for the other what difference dost thou put betweene those which were in the Limbe and those which were in Purgatory sith that the one and the other according to your doctrine were depriued of the fruition of God I doe greatly feare that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers aswell Patriarkes as Prophets were depriued from such a goodnes wherein did they differ from the dampned And in like manner those whom thou ledgest in Purgatorye what néed haue they of any more greater tormeÌ„t or of any other fire for to torment them And what solace can they haue more then y damned if they were depriued froÌ„ y loves of Paradise and yet besides that to bee deteined in the fire Hillarius But at that time for that there was no Masse nor papistical Priests for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continue a long time in those paines torments And which is more sith that in that time none could enter in Paradise when they had accomplished the time of their paines in Purgatorye whether went they when they departed from thence They could not but departe from one hell for to go into an other that is to say from purgatory to the Limbe where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked fast in the prisons of Purgatory vntill the comming of Iesus Christ Theophilus For to speake the truth I finde no great difference betweene hell and those other two lodgings Eusebius But there is great difference For these here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie from y which the dampned are altogether depriued Theophilus There is then none other difference but that the one are defeined and kept in hell and dampned for euer the others are not but for a time And so your Limbe and Purgatory shal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes who were in this foolish and false opinion that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually but that all those whiche are deteyned in hell after a long space of time shal
time without circumcising the children Theophilus If they had bene circumcised it shoulde not haue bene written that Iosua caused them to bee circamcised after y they were entred into the land of Chanaan But by that example those holy men do shew vnto vs how we ought to vnderstand the matter of the exterior sacraments For notwithstanding that it is written of the circumcision This is mine alliaunce with your generations by an euerlasting ordinaunce and that the bay of the giuing and receiuing hath bene limitted yet neuerthelesse they haue well vnderstanded that that sacrament was a publike ceremony for to witnesse the allyaunce of God betwóene that people and in the Iewish Churche as the Pascal Lambe and their other sacraments Wherfore when they had iuste and lawfull lette and that they had not the time and place and other things requisit to theyr ceremonies they haue made it no great coÌ„science to omit them did not thinke that therby their saluation should be in daunger for that they dyd knowe that it came not thorow their negligence and dispising of god As they had then the females saued thorow fayth and the spiritual and interior circumcision without carnal and exterior circumcision euen so did they y males knowing y they were coÌ„prised in y aliance of God by the which of his pure grace mercie he graunteth saluatioÌ„ vnto his elect y which he giueth through his holie spirite as it pleaseth him aswel with out sacraments as with sacraments as it appeareth in Cornelius those which were in his house which haue receiued y holie Ghost before they were baptised of S. Peter But yet they neuerthelesse did not dispise the exteriour â— outward baptisme although y they were alreadie baptised by y holy Ghost For y man should be verie proud which would dispise y baptisme ordeyned by Iesus Christ sith y he himselfe which is y holy of y holyest who alone can sanctifie the sinners baptise with the holy Ghost with fire did not dispise the same of S. Iohn Baptist But if the elect aswel little as great which haue ben among y Gentiles Panims haue bene saued without exteriour circumcision as it appeareth in y Niniuites Nahaman Iob Nabuchodonosor other like which haue had knowledg of God haue had their recourse vnto his mercie wherefore shal y same priuiledge be denyed vnto those that be hath not only elected through his eternall election beloÌ„ging vnto all his seruants but also he hath giuen vnto them y witnesse by the exteriour sacraments if they had such lettes excuses as reasonable as the Gentiles and Panyms could haue For why were not the elect which were among y Panims accused in being not circumcised but bicause that they were not in the land of Israel nor in the visible church among y people which he had chosen vnto whom he coÌ„maunded such things If they had bene among the Israelites and that they might haue communicated with them it had bene requisite to be circumâ—â—sed and to vse the same sacraments But when they were in a place in which they had not that exteriour mymâ—re nor could not haue it the Lorde was contented with the meanes that it pleased him to giue vnto thé Now if such necessitie happened vnto the Israelites I doubt not but that the obliâ—ation of the lawe hath ceased when the causes for which it was giuen are ceased and the spirituall circumcision of the heart suffiecth for it selfe for the exterior the spirituall sacrifices for the material For wheÌ„ they were in y wildernes that they must be readie euery day to remoue their host houshold stuffe euery houre when God commaunded them they did well Iudge y God woulde not y they should be murtherers of their young children whom they could not circumcise but y they would be very sick in daunger of drath if they had not had time place to looke well vnto them as we may presume by the Sichemytes who were so sicke after their circumcision y they could not defende themselues against y two sonnes of Iacob And therfore Moyses hath well considered y the circumcision was made for man not man for y circumcision as he writeth of y sabboth And also y the people were not in place where they might haue their church garnished bewtified as it ought to be Then if y Iewes which had such expresse commaundement had verie wel such dispensation exception shall we put the Christians their young children in worse conditioÌ„ then y Iewes I cannot marueil too much of y question which y Theologians made to wit whether we ought to accoÌ„pt take an Infant to be baptised which for want of water should be cast into a well in pronouncing the sacramentall words which apperteine to the substauÌ„ce forme of the sacrament Upon which many Canonists Theologians answered y he was said y the same hath ben some times done Although y there are other of diuerse opinions which do not take such an Infant for to be baptised Hillar If I were y Iudge in y cause I would condemne to death as an homicide him y should so cast away kil y infant Theophilus We may wel know by such questions theological resolutions of what spirit the doctrine which thou mainteinest Euseb proceedeth y which putteth such necessitie in the exterior baptisme that those which doe vpholde and followe it are constrayned euen to murther the Infauntes or at the least they are in doubt and perplexitie eyther to kill them or drowne them after that sort or to suffer theÌ„ to die doubting that they are lost and reiected of god I am much abashed how God is become more cruell in this time of grace and mercy towards the children of the Christians after the manifestation of Iesus Christ his sonne then he hath bene towards the children of the Iewes before his comming Eusebius What is hée that saith that God is more cruell towards the children of the Christiane then towards the children of the Iewes Theophilus Thou and those which doe follow the doctrine which thou vpholdest mayntainest It is most true that you doe not speake it openly but your doctrine importeth no lesse For what rigor should God doe against the little Infants of the Christians if for want of being wâ—tte with a little water they were depriued eternally from the Ioyes of Paradise I haue alredy sufficiently proued that the children of the Iewes were not bound vnto suche necessitie although that the commaundement of the circumcision giueth an expresse terme the which is not in the baptisme wherein then ought the children of the Christians to be more culpable then those of the Iewes If it hath pleased god to send vnto the mother any aduersitie or sicknesse whiche was the cause that shée hath brought foorth hir child before hir ful
adoption and of libertie as we haue receiued but y they were the sonnes of God as perfect in their estate condition altogether as wée But for to magnifie y vertue glory of Iesus Christ meaneth to shew vnto vs y the goodnesse y we haue receiued by him in his coÌ„ming are â—â—ut any coÌ„parison a great deale more excelleÌ„t insomuch y one may cal their light darknes in regarde of ours as he calleth that of Moses in comparison of that of Iesus Christ Touching the Purgatory I haue already sufficiently declared what I thincke of it And I do not sée that the place that is alledged of y booke of the Machabees is sufficient for to confirme it although that the booke be very auncient and worthy of credite and to be beléeued For although that Iudas Machabeus had done that which is there recited it followeth not therfore that we are bound to doe the lyke For the perticuler examples of some are no generall rules for all euen as I haue alredy touched speaking of y example of Zipphora Afterwardes that witnesse is all alone is there recyted more for to allowe the resurrection and for a publike witnesse of repentaunce then for to induce to praye for the dead as promisinge deliueraunce from Purgatory vnto those for whom it is offered Eusebius It is very true that the text sayth expressely that Iudas Machabeus dooinge the same had a holy and a deuoute thought of the resurrection but it is sayde immediatly afterwardes that the aduise and thought to praye for the dead to the ende they may bée deliuered from their sinnes is holy and well done Theophilus Yet the same concludeth nothing for the Purgatory For according to your doctrine the soules which are in Purgatorye are alreadye deliuered from their sinnes and there resteth no more but the paine And therefore wée should rather saye Vt à poems saluantur that is to saye that they maye bée deliuered from paines then Vt à peccatis saluantur that they may bée deliuered from sinnes Eusebius Thou doest not consider that sinne conteineth two things to wit the faulte and the paine I confesse that the true Christians thorow the faith in Iesus Christ are deliuered from the fault But it followeth not therefore but that they must yet beare the paine and satisfie in Purgatory Theophilus Whereto then serueth vs Iesus Christ And whereto profâ—teth us the forgiuenesse of our sinnes Eusebius Iesus Christ serueth vs to abolish the originall sâ—â—ne and the fault of our sinnes that they make vs not culpable of eternall damnation at the iudgement of God and to mitigate and make lesse the paine the which we haue merited and deserued Theophilus I can vnderstande none other thing by thy speaking but that God is as a prince who at the request of one of his very friendes or of the friende of the Malefactor sheweth grace vnto the Malefactor vpon such condition that if he haue deserued to bée burned or to bée put vppon the whéele that hée shoulde haue onely but his head cut off or if he had deserued to haue had his head cut off that hée should haue but one of his eares cutte off or that hée should bée but onely whipped or that he should be raunsomed with some peece of money the which he was bound to pay yet besides his grace and pardon Doest thou estéeme and thinke such grace and pardon to bée whole and perfect or whether thou wilt iudge that the Prince had wholy pardoned the Malefactor Hillarius Not I. Eusebius Is not that sufficient inough that Iesus Christ hath deliuered vs from eternall dampnation and that wée doe the rest if wée will or otherwise we should be saued to good cheape Hillarius Art thou afraide of that Eusebius or art thou angry and not well content with the goodnesse that God would doe vnto vs Theophilus Beholde Eusebius what Iesus Christ thou makest for vs and what credite thou giuest him towards God his Father If he cannot obteine for vs perfect grace and ful forgiuenesse from paine fault he is not a perfect Sauiour And God is not god For your owne Doctors do witnesse namely Raymond who as oftentimes as God pardoneth any thing vnto any one he pardoneth him wholy For otherwise God worketh not perfectly Whervpon they doe alledge the Verses which I haue already once spoken off Hillarius By that accompt Iesus Christ should not haue so much power credit as the Pope who by his Buls and pardons promiseth ful forgiuenesse of paine and fault Graunt at the least as much to the pardon of Iesus Christ as vnto the Buls and pardons of the Pope Thomas Take héede Eusebius thou make not God a Tyrant who béeing not content to chastice punish the revels and reprobate cannot pardon those which demaund grace and mercye whatsoeuer request one doe make vnto him but that he kéepeth still some roote of veâ—geaunce without forgetting the iniurye that hath bene done vnto him but that hée receiue satisfaction and recompence either on his body or his goods The heauenly Father béeing content with the raunsome of his sonne Iesus Christ for whose loue he hath defaced rent in péeces our bond that our debtes and sinnes doe come no more in remembraunce or otherwise he should not be true in hys promises which he hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and seruauntes Eusebius To what purpose is it then written That it is a good thing to pray for the dead Theophilus Sith that the booke is not allowed nor receiued for autenticke in the true Church that shoulde bée great folly to stay vpon it any longer if I would not beare with thine infirmitie content thée more fully I do leaue off to alledge a coniecture very like vnto that which I haue spoken off Thomas Put it foorth Theophilus I haue somtimes thought that that proposition which is as a conclusion taken out of the history going before was not put by the author of the sayd booke but rather of some studiouâ— reader which hath noâ—ed the same in the margent and that it hath bene added to the text as it oftentimes happâ—neth in many good authors And I am not alone in that opinion but many wise and learned men besides mée And if one doe examine the thing well it is easy to sée y the continuation of the narration séemeth to be broken marred that y sentence hath ben put in y which was a curtein annotation consequence which some did make vpon y text as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the bookes noting the places y which we would haue to serue vs. Eusebius What reason hast thou for to proue the same Theophilus First this for that I sée oftentimes the examples and copyes of many bookes to varye the which varietie oftentimes is happened for such cause Furthermore I consider that in that time there was no mention made of
respect of those which haue receiued the light of the gospell But we must not therefore dreame that the bosome of Abraham was a prison or a Castle as we haue alredy declared in the other disputacion But we must be aduised know that those things are spoken by a comparison as we haue already declared the examples Thomas It séemeth that Saint Peter speaketh not but of the reprobate For after that hée hath spoken of those spirits which wer in prison he addeth which late or sometune were rebells Theophilus He speaketh generally of all For euen as the Gospell is a sweete sauour of lyfe to lyfe vnto those which are saued and a sauour of death to death vnto those that perish so the death of Iesus Christ bringeth a great reioycing both to the Angells and to all the blessed spirits and more greater confusion and grieuous dampnation vnto the wicked and reprobate But after that he spake generally of the spirits he pursued not all the two parts but stayed himselfe onely to the disobedient and rebells bicause that he is fallen into that matter speaking of afflictions Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull he sâ—ayed to declare vnto them the vertue which Iesus Christ hath for to saue his as he saued Noe and his family in the Arke and for to punish the wicked and persecutors as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud For that cause he stayed to declare the Iudgement of god as in the chapter following saying that Iesus Christ shall Iudge the quicke and the dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should bée iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before God in the spirite Thomas By that which thou sayest thou doest declare vnto vs that that place concludeth not that ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory then such which thou hast shewed vnto vs from the beginning But what sayest thou touching the preaching of the which we haue spoken which ought to be done vnto the spirits after this lyfe Theophilus First of all as touching those which are departed out of this world without hauing one grayne of that seede of the feare of God but haue altogether resisted his spirite and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vnto them or at the preaching of his gospell we cannot leaue vnto them any preaching nor any other remedy after their death for their saluation except wée wil fall into the error of the Origenists and Anabaptists For it is written He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned But if it be a question of the elect which haue had alredy in this world some grain of the seede of God which haue walked in his feare although that they haue bene yet wrapped in many errors and darkenesse there is an other consideration Not that I doe vnderstand that the gospell is preached vnto them after they are departed out of this lyfe otherwise saying that they shall haue more ful knowledge of that that they haue onely héere known as amongst the midst of darkenesse For if they be the sonnes of God the seede of god which is in them shall saue them As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter he had not perfect knowledge of Iesus Christ Hée was yet a Panim but he was not therefore altogether without the seede of the feare of GOD nor without some beginning of fayth obscure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST Or otherwise his prayers and almes deedes shoulde not haue bene approued of God whome one cannot please without fayth If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vnto him I do not thinke therefore that he had ben altogether reiected and forsaken of God and that that knowledge sufficed him not to saluation or that he had not giuen himselfe more fully to be knowne of him either by some diuine inspiration or by some other meanes such as it pleaseth him yea in the Article of the death or at his last gaspe rather then to suffer him to perish As we may presume as wel of the Iewes as of the Panims who before the comming and manifestation of Iesus Christ in the flesh had the lawe of God written in their heartes notwithstanding that they haue not had altogether so full knowledge of Iesus Christ as we haue at this present For although that the knowledge of Iesus Christ be vnto all men necessary to saluation it followeth not therefore that none can be saued if it be not full and perfect in him For who euer had in this world so full knowledge of him and a faith so perfect that he had nothing to say There was neuer such a one found in this world It sufficeth then that that knowledge faith hath taken roote in vs that we do trauaile as much as we can possible to augment and increase it And afterwards when we shall doe our endeuour as much as we can the Lord which hath begun his worke in vs will bring it to passe and will supply and recompense thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we haue receiued of him euen as he doth of our workes which are all imperfect bicause of the imperfection of our faith so that ther be not dispising and to great negligence in vs which cannot be but to the reprobate Euen then as GOD by his great mercye supporteth the imperfection of our fayth and ceaseth nor leaueth off to receiue vs for his children so that the seede and the roote of the same be quickened in vs so I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witnesse of the holy Scripture that any should haue iust occasion to hope for saluation after this lyfe which from the same shall bée departed without any knowledge of God of Iesus Christ his sonne Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vnto me do leaue the rest with the secrete iudgements of God which are hid from vs and couered But yet neuerthelesse I think that it is alwayes most sure to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth whilest that wée be in this worlde that wee may haue so much as is néedfull for our saluation and that our despising be not any cause vnto vs of dampnation And if wée doe our endeuour wee are very sure that the Lorde will not faile vs and that he will not hide himselfe or withdrawe himselfe from vs if wée doe seeke him and desire to approch and come vnto him For it is impossible that hee wil hide himselfe from those whom he hath chosen whoÌ„ he hath purposed to glorifie and to make them blessed by his knowledge And notwithstanding that wée haue not all of vs so great and high knowledge of him nor so many of his giâ—tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apostles yet