Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	act_n	holy_a	john_n	6,706	5	7.0083	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45835	Vindiciæ veritatis, or, An impartial account of two several disputations the one being on the 12th. and the other on the 26th of February, 1671. between Mr. Danson a non-conformist minister, and Mr. Ives, upon this question, (viz) whether the doctrine of the possibility of some true believers final apostacy, be true, or no? Published to prevent false reports. Together with an appendix; in which the said question is more fully resolved in the affirmative, and the absurd[i]t[i]es of the negative opinion detected from the pens of divers of the patrons of it. By a lover of truth and peace.; Contention for truth	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1106A; ESTC R218068	84,282	219

thing Mr. Ives I do not say it is I say one and the same divine Nature and holy Ghost Mr. Danson You prove nothing for you were to prove that those that partake of the holy Ghost partake of the divine Nature now this you proved thus that to partake of the holy Ghost in its extraordinary gifts and to partake of the divine Nature in respect of grace they are one and the same thing Mr. Ives I did not I said it is a participation of one and the same holy Ghost but not a participation of one and the same degree Mr. Danson Otherwise it will not follow that they may not be separable one from another A person may partake of the divine Nature if you will call it by that phrase he may have some resemblance of the divine Wisdom in natural ability and extraordinary gifts yet notwithstanding not partake of the divine Nature in that extraordinary sense of the holiness of God for there are two sort of perfections in the divine Nature which go under the name of the divine Image some are natural perfections such as understanding and will and immortality and there are also some which we call moral perfections some things in God which we cannot conceive but under the notion of virtue or grace as truth justice mercy and the like now we understand the participation of the divine Nature in the latter not the former sence Mr. Ives I expounded it of the same partaking of the holy Ghost you brought an instance in the 17 acts about extraordinary gifts I answered thus that instance doth not exclude but include the ordinary as you call'd it and therefore I leave this to consideration whether he that partakes of the holy Ghost doth not partake of the divine Nature for indeed that is the sum of my argument then it will follow that if he that partakes of the holy Ghost may fall away he that partakes of the divine Nature may Mr. Danson I grant it you Mr. Ives This is that which you deny'd that those that partake of the divine Nature can sall away which I proved thus that if those that partake of the holy Ghost may fall away then those that partake of the divine Nature may fall away Mr. Danson 〈…〉 it I said that phrase of the divine Nature as there it is used concerning the Saints is to be taken in a special sense there is no perfection to be found in Men but is a participation of the divine Nature after a fort that is some resemblance of it but yet notwithstanding that the participation of the moral and natural perfections are not one and the same thing Mr. Ives You say that to partake of the divine Nature in a moral sense is doubtless the sense of the text referred too though not in a natural sense now if that be the ture sense of divine Nature in that place viz. a moral sence wherein God is thus gracious to assist and cooperate upon the minds and consciences of believers Why then is there not the same exposition to be given of being partakers of the holy Ghost by his cooperating upon the minds and consciences of believers Mr. Danson Prove your proposition that you are to prove that to partake of the extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost and special grace are one and the same thing in Scripture usage Mr. Ives Still you are under a mistake I never undertook to prove it I undertook to prove this that it is a partaking of the same divine Nature and not that to receive the holy Ghost in an extraordinary and miraculous manner and the receiving of it in an ordinary measure are the same thing for as you said well a Man may be a Logician and yet possibly another Artist but that I say in this that no man can partake of the holy Ghost as you interpret the holy Ghost for an extraordinary measure of gifts but that man that partakes of the graces of it which you call partaking of the divine Nature Mr. Danson Prove it Mr. Ives If the holy Ghost in the extraordinary gifts be promised to none but those that have the ordinary gifts and graces of it then no man can partake of the holy Ghost in the greater that doth not partake of the divine Nature in the less But the holy Ghost is promised to none but such Therefore none can partake of it but such Mr. Danson I deny your minor Mr. Ives It is a general negation therefore give me an instance it you can where God hath made a promise of the gifts of the holy Ghost to any but true believers Mr. Danson He hath made a promise to none at all Mr. Ives You should have said so before therefore give me an instance where the promise of the holy Ghost is made to any that are not true believers Mr. Danson In the 2 of Joel there is a promise of the extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost Mr. Ives a The last thing Mr. Danson said before was that the promise mas made to none at all what sence this is the reader may judge But whetker it be sense or no I am sure it is a a Contradiction to what he saith now viz. that there is a promise of the extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost in Joel the 2. and immediately before saith the promise was made to none at all Besides what is that promise in Joel 2. made to some that are not true believers It is indeed that promise which is expounded and fulfilled in the 2. of the Acts only to true believers for the Apostles were all true believers and the holy Ghost fell upon them Now Mr. Danson brings this as an instance against the universality of my minor proposition that the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit are promised to some that are not true believers Mr. Danson Hold there I did not say so you said only to true believers now I give you this place to prove that there is a promise of the extraordinary gifts of the holy Ghost made to the visible Church Mr. Ives Prove that any here were not true believers to whom this promise is made Mr. Danson Here is a promise made to the visible Church it s to believers in general Mr. Ives Pray hear me if it be to belivers in general it is nothing to me for my argument was this that this promise was made to none but True believers and you must give me an instance for if I say to none but True believers you must shew where it was made to some that were not True believers Mr. Danson It is a promise made to the visible believers Mr. Ives The question is whether this will serve what it is brought for that this promise is made to any that are not true believers Mr. Danson You are to prove that it is here limited Mr. Ives My Argument is this if I say the promise of the holy Ghost is made to none but true believers and you deny

VINDICIÆ VERITATIS OR An Impartial Account OF Two several Disputations The one being on the 12th And the other on the 26th of February 1671. Between Mr. Danson a Non-conformist Minister and Mr. Ives upon this Question viz Whether the Doctrine of the possibility of some True believers final Apostacy be True or No Published to prevent false Reports Together with an APPENDIX In which the said Question is more fully resolved in the Affirmative and the absurd●t●es of the Negative Opinion detected from the Pens of divers of the Patrons of it By a Lover of Truth and Peace Try the Spirits whether they are of God or no 1 John 4.1 For The Spirit speaketh expresly that in the latter times some shall depart from the Faith 1 Tim. 4.1 Printed in the Year 1672. Errata In the Epistle for Lr. read Mr. p. 32. l. 21. for may fall away r. are not true Believers p. 38. l. 12. r. sanctify p. 45. l. 17. r restrained special p. 75. instead of referring to p. 17 18. refer to p. 67 74. p. 78. l. 29. r. discoursed p. 89. l. 8. for Ives r. Danson p. 97. 102 104. r. quatenus p. 103. r. but. what the. p. 104. l. 8. r. concerning p. 133. l. 17. r. not an absolute promise p 148. l. 4. r. I should p. 174. l. 12. r. inscrutabili ora p. 186 l. 15. r. Eli's p. 190. l. 4. r. with READER LEast thou shouldest suspect the candor and ingenuity of the publisher let me advertise thee of three things First that whatever was said on both sides by way of opponency or respondency is here published without partiality Secondly that if Mr. Ives hath added any thing for the further confirmation of his own judgment or the refuting Mr. Dansons over and above what past in the disputations wherever there is any such adition let the differing Caracter in which they are Printed serve for thy information that whatever is so printed did not pass in the disputa●●●n Thirdly Take notice that Mr. 〈◊〉 sent a Letter to Mr. Danson to desire him to appoint some time and place within a week after that they might meet together to view the Copy and if need were to Correct it that it might be published by mutual consent but Mr. Danson instead of writing an answer sent word by the bearer that Mr. Ives might do what he pleased and that he would not trouble himself about it A Copy of which Letter is Printed and hereunto anexed for thy satisfaction Let me close all with this passionate wish that while we contend for the primitive faith God grant we may maintain the primitive love and not think our zeal for truth luke-warm as one well observes unless it consume our charity to ashes remembring that in gaining the knowledg of truth if we lose charity such knowledg will neither make us good nor happy Mr. Ives His Letter to Mr. Danson Mr. Danson THE Reports of our late conferences being very false and uncertain which doubtless must highly tend to the disparagement of the Truth contended for on which side the way soever it may lie I have therefore prevailed with a person who took an exact account of both days conferences in Caracters to transcribe a fair Copy in order to the Printing thereof to prevent further mistakes And least yo● 〈◊〉 any else should suspect the faithfulness and impartiality of the Scribe I thought good to give you this Advertisement viz. that if you will appoint a time and place sometime in the next week and send me word on Munday next that we may mert to examine and if need be to Correct the Copy so that it may be published by consent and without partiality I shall willingly wait upon you Otherwise if I hear not from you I shall correct the Copy as impartially as I can without you and dispatch it for the Press with all convenient speed And however you may think of me I have charity enough to subscribe my self Sir Walbrook March 2 1671. Your Loving Friend Jer. Ives READER WHereas there are divers and frequent repetitions occasioned by the prosecutions of the arguments and answers of each side which might well have been omitted if Mr. Danson would have met to have Corrected the Copy but by reason he would not meet it was thought necessary to publish all lest the omitting any thing should have been judged a piece of partiality A Contention for Truth The People being Assembled after an account given of the occasion of the meeting This Question was propounded by Mr. Ives WHether the Doctrine of some True believers falling away totally and finally be True or No Mr. Danson It is false Mr. Ives I shall then prove it true as far as God shall enable me Major If the Doctrine of the imposibility of any true believers falling away totally and finally from Grace be false then the doctrine of the possibility of some True believers falling away totally and finally is true Minor But the Doctrine of the Impossibility of any True believers falling away finally and totally is false Ergo The Doctrine of the possibility of some True believers falling away totally and finally is true Mr. Danson I deny the minor That the doctrine of the impossibility of any True believers falling away totally and finally from Grace is not true Mr. Ives I prove the minor If the doctrine of the impossibility of any True believers falling away totally and finally from Grace be true then it ought to be believed But it ought not to be believed Ergo It is not true Mr. Danson I deny the minor Prove it ought not to be believed but we shall intangle our selves ● know not how by this way of disputing hypothetically Mr. Ives You shall not teach me how to weild my sword Mr. Danson Hypothetical syllogisms ought never to be allowed except it cannot be put into a Categorical Mr. Ives Hypothetical syllogisms were allways allowed as well as Categorical but that 's not the Question Mr. Danson Go on take your course Mr. Ives Sir I shall not tye you up when you come to be opponent I shall use Categorical Syllogisms by and by My minor proposition is this That the doctrine of True believers final and total falling away ought not to be believed I prove it by this Categorical syllogism Whatsoever sins any are commanded not to do and cautioned to fear the doing of they ought not to believe is impossible to be done But falling away totally and finally is a sin that True believers are commanded not to do and are cautioned to fear the doing of Ergo True believers ought not to believe that it is impossible for them to fall away totally and finally Mr. Danson I deny the major Prove it Mr. Ives You deny this that we may be cautioned to avoid that which notwithstanding it is impossible to be done Then I will prove my major If the Scripture no where commands the not doing nor cautions us to

renewed again by Repentance Whence I argue Those that were once renewed by Repentance were True believers But these persons here were once renewed by Repentance Ergo they were True believers Mr. Danson I deny the major that those that were once renewed by Repentance were True believers Mr. Ives If none have been renewed by Repentance but True believers then the major is true but none have been renewed by Repentance but True believers Ergo Mr. Danson I deny your minor Mr. Ives Shew me one man that is said to be renewed by Repentance that was not a True believer Mr. Danson I will shew you an Instance of a man that was renewed by Repentance that is to say as we do understand it of a renewing by Repentance of a common work of the Spirit of God which hath the same name because of some similitude It is said that Judas repented himself and brought back again the price Mr. Ives You are to prove that Judas was renewed by Repentance a hundred men may so repent and yet not be renewed by Repentance in that sense which the Scripture calls renewing renovation or regeneration he was not renovated Mr. Danson The Scripture uses that phrase in a different sence Mr. Ives No not in Repentance Mr. Danson Yes in Repentance Do you suppose that Repentance is not separable from renewsng in the Scripture Mr. Ives Shew me if you can that a man that hath changed his mind by any contrition or remorse and was ever said to be renewed by it and not a new Creature the word is frequently used Be ye renewed in the spirit of your minds c. I say shew me but where any man was ever said to be renewed by Repentance or to be renewed by Faith or to be renewed by his Humiliation that was not a True believer if he was renewed by the operation of these Qualities I do tell you it is to be understood of a True believer Mr. Danson I have given you an Instance to the contrary where the Scripture applies Repentance to one that was not a True believer Mr. Ives Alas There may be a thousand such but that that I would ask you is whether Judas was renewed by Repentance in the sense of this Text therefore you do not or you cannot give me an instance for I am bound to believe the Text and it tells me they cannot be renewed again by Repentance which implies they were once renewed by Repentance Mr. Danson The Scripture uses this phrase Twice dead Pluckt up by the roots Mr. Ives All that you have to do is to shew me where the Scripture applies this phrase to any but True believers if you cannot then my Argument is proved Mr. Danson I have given an instance of Judas that repented and restored unjust gotten goods Mr. Ives You have given no Instance as yet for you cannot shew that Judas was renewed by Repentance and that it was an Act of the Spirit of God upon him in renovation I come now to a Third Instance Those that have tasted of the powers of the World to come give me an Instance where any but True believers have tasted of the powers of the World to come Mr. Danson I can in the 24th of Acts it is said there that as Paul reasoned concerning Righteousness Temperance and Judgment to come Foelix Tremb ed. Mr. Ives What doth that prove c The Text under consideration Heb. 6. Speaks of such a tasting as Implies a savouring of heavenly things so as to be affected and in Love with them and therefore it is said they tasted of the heavenly gift but it is otherwise said of Foelix that he trembled and if that might be called a tast it was a tast that his Soul was in the abhorrancy off which is a forreign interpretation and a forcable invading the sense of the text under consideration to suppose the persons spoken of there to have tasted of the World te come in the sense that Foelix Trembled at the Judgment to come indeed they might have such a tast if they should fall away but that they had had any such tast if they had not fallen away is denyed Mr. Danson This is one part of the powers of the World to come that is to say a dreadful sense and apprehension he had upon him of the future judgment and then in Luke 14.15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things he said unto him Blessed is he that shall eat Bread in the Kingdom of God he had here some affectionate transports at the narration that was made concerning the future state of happyness and Christ directs a Parable to him Mr. Ives Indeed I am much beholding to you and you have done me a kindness in bringing that to my mind that was out before Now the Scripture tells you in the Parable That a certain man made a Supper and this Supper was to set before him and to represent to him the Glory of the Kingdom of God and of the World to Come Now he doth not say as you say that he tasted of it but the quite contrary that not only he but none that was bidden should tast of the Supper v. 14. Mr. Danson You do not understand what you say Mr. Ives I do for at the latter end of the Parable Christ gives Instance that those that were bidden should not tast of the Supper and applies it to him and the general import of it is to shew that many persons are called that yet notwithstanding in Truth and Reality do not obey the call Mr. Danson How do you know this that the man did not Eat of it Mr. Ives Either he did or he did not tast of it but the text faith none that was bidden did tast and you say this man was bid and did tast Mr. Danson He tasted of it he had affection of joy wrought in him by the representation of the future state Mr. Ives I answer First that he did not tast but Secondly supposing this sense true that he did tast then tell me was this a Believer or an Unbeliever for the Instance must prove both viz. that he did tast and that he was not a True believer Mr. Danson He was an Unbeliever Mr. Ives This will not serve your turn Mr. Danson It will Because this Parable was directed particularly to him and Secondly Because it is said that he to whom his discourse was directed was of the Pharisees of whom the Scripture tells us a great number of them were open enemies to him and some of them though the Scripture saith they did believe on him yet would not confess him least he should put them out of the Synagogue because they loved the praise of men more then the praise of God Mr. Ives There is two thing in this Text yet in question as I have told you First Whether this man tasted of the powers of the World to come for the text doth not say so but implies