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A18003 A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582. Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588? 1582 (1582) STC 4654; ESTC S107537 141,619 356

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nethermoste hell Reade afterward in Sheol psal 86. 30. Reinerus in pantheologia The 7. Obie De profundis spal 130. 11. Chryst descen ded to purgatorie Arnobius lib. 2. contra gent reproueth the gentiles for a mitting ani purgatory after this life Polidor 6. c. 9 Volat. 12. Aethna which is now called Ca●…bo brenneth no lōger as Oliuerius writeth vpon Mela. ergo purgatory is no longer for it is brenr vp Mach. 12. 4 Pomponius Mela. De profundis oute of the diep●… psa 130. The argumēt of the 130. psa The 10. obiect The 11. obiect Hose 6. 2. Soules die not August lib 4. ad cathe ca. 6. Thei are dead that ●…all from God Two dayes Esay 37. 4. King 19. Ioseph lib. 10 cap. 1. 2. 2. para 32. August de ciuit 8. cap. 28. Lact. 4 cap. 19. The 12. obiect ion Hose 13. 14. 〈…〉 ver 55. 56. Resurrection The soules neither slepe 〈◊〉 Sheol Zachar. 9. 11. The 13. obiection The couenant was Christ. Bede vpon the 2. of the actes 〈◊〉 ●… itt Bor. Church Mathe. 21. 5. August deciin lib 18. c. 35. The. 14. obiec ●…ion Christ loused the sorows of death 〈◊〉 2. 24. sorowe dolor Aepinus in psa 16. The fathers were tormented in hell A false principle God the father loused the sorowes of death in raysing his sonne from death Polycarpus Actes 2. 24. Hebre. 2. 14. psal 16. Borhaus vppon 1. of the kinges 1. Actes 2. 27. when he raysed christ frō death Rom. 6. 9. To louse the sorrowes of deathe Soluere to breake Deathe The sorowes of deathe Rom. 8. 19. 20 21. 22. 23. Euod Epist. 99. The soules de sire their bodies When the sorovves of death are losed They that role with Christ ascended with●… him August in sermone do Resurrect Remigius vpō Math. Hierom. Iustinus quest 85. Rom. 6. 23. Origenes vpō the 6. to the Rom. Iohn 16. 20. ●…1 22. When you shall see me ●…yse againe in Epist. ad Euod epist. 99. Tom. ●… Augustine and Smith d●…sient and both in an errour August contrary to himselfe in epist. 99. Abraham●… bosome August Tom. 3. de Gen. ad lit 12. cap. 22. pag. 702. The sorrowes of Deathe August Euod 99. Epist. To be loosed from the sorrowes of deathe Rom. 7. 6. Rom. 6. ver 4. 6. Act. 13. ver 30. 32. 33. 34. 35. The sorrowes of deathe ar●… nothinge else but deathe it ●…elfe Heb. 2. v. 14. 15. The terrour●… of deathe Psal. 55. 4. The iudgmē●… of deathe ●… Rom. 1. 9. The Grekes pu●… a Verbe a Participle of on significatiō Hades whiche they translate Hell put for Death and consequēt ly for the Graue because that one foloweth of the other Act. 4. 10. Ro●… 4. 14. 1. Cor. 6. 14. 2. Cor. 4. 14. Col. 2. 12. 1. Thess. 1. 10. Galat. 1. 1. Caluine vpon psal 22. ver 2 Act ●…8 2. 24. All went to hell before Christ Marcion in the yeare of Christ. 277. Ireneus 5. c. 29 Theodoret in 〈◊〉 fab Clemens Alexandrinus error strom 5. 6. A fable Marcion Clemens in 2. strom Paulus cortesius vpon sen distio 6. Variety of opinions Durandus Mirandul●… Thomas Aquine Hugo Victor Purgatory Co●…lius in 4. s●…nt dist 3. ●…zenburg prynted at Colone in the yeare of Christ 1537. 14. ma ii Iohānes detere cremata Iacobus de Vo ●…agine in his boke printed at Venice in the yeare of Christ. 1478. in ●…is sermon d●…●…esur Reynerus in pantheologia pag. 297. Nichodemus Gospell Iacob de voragine in his sermone of the resnrrection To lose the sorowes of deathe Theodore●… dial 3. Impat Actes 2. 24. 25 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. psal 16. 79. 10. God losed the sorowes of death act 2. 24. Iohn herolt sermone 146. in the yeare of Christ. 1494. prynted at Norimberg saith that their soules ascended withe Christ. So saith Ignatius August expoundeth thi●… place vntruly Augustine tom de gen●… ad lit lib. 12. c. 33. 34. pa. 702. Augustine de verbis Apostolornm sir. 18 Tom. 10. 149. A third place after this life is not founde in scripture August Tom. 7. 1405 One hell Enchit c. 111. Tom. 3. 190 August variable Ad Macedon epist. 54. ser. 66 lib. 2. quest cap. 38. Damascene in the yeare of Christ. 490. Esay 61. v. 1. 2. Purgatory Damascene condemned Bul. in conci Transubstantiation inuented by Damal Damescene in the yeare of Christ. 490. after Lebbeus 453. after Pataleon Trithemius in scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis The Greekes neuer beleued any Purgatory Limbus is in Vtopia mori Ignatius ad Trallianos pag. 119. 200. That is to the Graue Math. 27. 53. The 15. obiect ion Ephes. 4. 8. Psal. 68. 19. He led captiuity captiue They that rose with Christ as cended with him Math. 27. 35. Chrisost. vpon Ephes. 4. Gen. 44. Christ was not in Purgatorye Receiued gifts To lead cap●…iuity captiue The 16. obiection Ephes. 4. 9 The inferiou●… partes of the earthe Flam. in ps 139 Fagius vpon Gen 37. Psal. 139. 15. Tactiioth Harets Psal. 63. 10 The inferiour partes of the earthe is the Graue Ezech. 3●… 14. 18. Ezech. 32. 24. The 17. obiect 1. Pet. 3. 19 20. 21. The godly fathers of the old Testamēt were not disobedient These disobedient were the desperate Giant●…s before the floude 1. pe 3. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. It is the hebrue phrase that Mem in comparisons is a mere negatiue or exclu siue psal 52. 4. 5. Psal. 118. 8. Raised to life by the holy Ghost 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 confer 2. cor 13. 3 4. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 di●… loke for their amendement 120. yeares gen 6. 3. throughe the helpe of the A●…ke water 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Baptisme is like to that water the like figure or signe or Sacrament The deuine nature of Christ. Noae is called and prached Peter 5. Disobedient or desperate gen 6. 3 Baptisme Read a note vpon 1. cor 15 29. rom 6. 4. 5. 6. Prisone The Spirite Spi●…ites Iohn 10. 17. The spirite of Christ whō peter in this 3. Chapter calleth the spirite in his firste cha he calleth God 1 pet 1. 21. 2. Thess. 1. 10. The spirite of Christ is God Reade ●…om 8. 11. Rom 4. 24. 2. Cor. 6. 14. Gal. 1. 1 Rom. 4. 17. Iohn 5. 16. 17. 18 19. 20. 21. Acts. 26. 8. This spirite Ambrose callethe the holy Ghoste de voc gen 2. c 3. 2. cor 13 4 Theodoret vpon this place Iohn 2. 19. Iohn 2. 1●… Act 20. 28. Iohn 6. 21. Christes humanite and diuinity Augustine Enop EPist 99. The spirite of Iehoua gen 6. 3 An analogi●… betwene Moses and Peter Bash●… Hanepholi●… This spirite is not the soule of man 2. pet 2. 5. Beza Sibilla in her O. acles Spirits were the desperate Giauntes of Noacs Gen. 6. Baptisme Spirites are euill men 1. Tim. 4. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Paul seducing spirites Esay 19. 14. Zach. 13. 2. A duble spirit Hozee 9. 11. 1.
onely guided by the Spirite whiche ledde them into all truthe If it ledde them into all truthe what neded they of any other rule was not he suffitient had they not receyued the Spirite abundantly coulde they erre It is an absurdyty to prescribe an order to them that were the authors of order or to assigne them a rule that ruled all or that laide the foundation of Doctrine to wauer in Doctrine or that were the teachers of faithe to be ignorant of the will of God Coulde the Spirite of God erre whiche taughte them all and ledde them into all truthe Wherefore you sée what holde you haue and what your authority is Smith Iohn herolte a frier Dominique in the yeare of Christ. 1494. writeth in his 146. sermone that the apostels made this erede in the councell at Hierusalem Act. 15. Carlil H●…w do these two doctors agrée the one olde the other new the one saith that it was made immediatly after Christes ascension the other 17. or 18. yeares after or aboue This is a good argument How could the twelue Apostels make it so many yeares after the assension of Christ when as there were some of them that had suffered death for Iames brother to Iohn the sonne of Zebede was beheaded by Herode Agrippa And this was done 7. or 8. yeares or more before the councell holden in the Art 15. Moreouer the other apostels were dispersed some into one place some into others as Phillipp in Scythia Bartholomewe in Lycaonia India and Armenia Mathew in Aethyopia Thomas in Parthya Media Persia Germanya Hyrcania and Bactria Now if there were none of the Apostels at the councell holden at Hierusalē act 15. saue Iames Iohn ●… Peter then were not all the Apostels there to put to euery man his sentence if it had bene made there then woulde either Peter Iohn Iames or Luke who wrote the rest ●…o exactly haue made mention of ●…t Smith They made the twelue articles as a Som of our faith and cal●…ed it Symbolum for that euery apostell added one peice Peter I beleue ●…n God the father almighty Carlil Iohn Herolte sai●…h that Peter ●…ade I beleue in God the father al●…ighty the maker of heauen and ●…arth Pseudo Augustine deniethe that ●…nd saith that Peter made but the ●…ne halfe of that sentence For the ●…tter parte sayth he made Iohn Augustine make th two articles of it Herolte but one Augustine saithe that Peter Iohn made these two Herolte that Peter made both Herolte saithe that Iohn made this And in Iesus Christe his only sonne our Lord. Pseudo Augustine sait●… that Iames the greater made that This Herolte deniethe and sayth●… that Iohn the Euangeliste made it Augustine maketh this the third●… Article Herolte the seconde Andrewe Who was couceaued by he holye Ghost borne of the Vi●…gine Mary Pseudo Augustine makethe thi●… the fourth article Herolt the third Pseudo Augustine saith that Andrewe made it Herolte that Iam●… the greater brother to Iohn the Euangeliste made it who was the●… dead as it is manyfest in the Act●… 12. Iohn Herolte here forgetteth●… himselfe for he said in the begi●…ning of his Sermon y ● this Cr●… was made in the councell at Hierusalem And this Iames was behea●… ded by Herode longe before as is mauifest in Act. 12. Mendacem me●…orem esse oportet Phillip Suffered vnder Pontius Pilate Crucified dead and Buryed Herolte saythe that Andrewe made this Pseudo Augustine maketh this the fist Article Herolte the fourth Thomas say●…he Hee descended into Hell the thirde daye hee rose from ●…he deade Herolte saythe that Phi●…ip made this former parte Pseudo Augustine saith that Thomas made it all Herolte maketh He descended into Hell a whole Article Pseudo Augustine makethe it but ●…alfe and addeth The thirde daye ●…e rose from the dead I maruell that they wyll father ●…his vpon Phillip whose Creede ●…s it is writen in Pirianius leaueth out this patche Herolte sayth that Thomas made The third daye he rose agayne frō the deade Pseudo Augustine ioyneth this w t Christes going to Hel and ascribethe it to Thomas on●… Bartholmewe He ascended into he●… uen sittethe on the righte hande God the father Almightye in 〈◊〉 they bothe agree Mathewe Fr●… thence hee shall come to Iudge 〈◊〉 quicke and the dead Iames the le●… I beleue in the holy Ghost the h●… Catholique Churche Pseudo A●… gustine makethe this one Articl●… Herolte maketh it twayne P●… Augustine maketh it the 9. Arti●… Herolte makethe y ● latter parte●… 10. Simon Zelotes The Commun●… of Sayntes Remission of sinnes 〈◊〉 rolte maketh the 10. Article o●… The holy Catholique Church 〈◊〉 Augustine makethe this Articl●… parte of the 9. Herolte maketh●… the 10. Indas Thaddeus The Re●… rection of the flesh Herolt He●… Vrinaria make the 11. Article T●… Communion of Sayntes remis●… on of sinnes Pseudo Augustine 〈◊〉 keth it the 10. Herolte the 11. P●… August ascribeth it to Simon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Herolte to Iudas Thaddeus Mathias added Euerlasting lyfe Herolt saythe that he made The Resurrection of the flesh euerlasting lyfe Here you see y ● disagremēt betwene 〈◊〉 whom they say was S. August Herolte Henry Vrinaria There is no lesse variety and inconstauncy in the rest of the schoolmen In S. Augustines time they were not digested in that order as they ●…ée nowe For hee leauethe out the goinge of Christ into Hell lyfe euerlastinge Chrisostome leauethe ●…ut The Comunion of Sayntes and in his former exposition he omit●…eth Descendit ad Inferos and in the ●…atter he sayth Descendit ad Inferos was y ● Christ was dead buryed and w t him raysed a great nomber of bodyes for he was y ● first fruites of them that sleeped and the firste borne frō y ● dead wherby you may easely vnderstand that the Gréeke Doctors vnderstande by Hades the graue w e hath bene translated he Hiero. August and Ambr. say th●… this Crede came from the Apostle whiche can not be perswaded to●… Valla a Gentl. of Italye and a singuler Iudgment 1. Marcellus in Epiph. sayth that 〈◊〉 receyued this sayth of y ● Scriptu●… Elders not w tstanding he leaue●… out this article of his going to h●… 2. Ignatius hathe a perfect Crede many of the Articles of oure co●… Creede but neuer one woorde Christes going to Hell 3. Neither in his epistle to y ● Ephe●… where hee confesseth his Béelye●… twyse 4. Neither in his epistle to y ● Ro●… Theoderet Dial. 1. immut 5. Neither in his Epist. to y ● Tra●… lians Theod. Dial. 1. Immut 6. Polycarpus in an epistle to th●… Phillipians vtterethe the mistery of Christes Natiuity Deathe an●… Resurrection but this addition h●… leaueth out 7. Iustinus Martyr doth most manifestly and exactly declare Christes Passion Deathe and Resurrectiō of this neuer a worde 8.
Cor. 2. 12. 1. Iohn 4. 1. 2. Cicero To whome Christ preached a true ex position Lyra. Prison is the custome of sinninge Reuel 18. 2. Psal. 142. 7. August vpon Psal. 142. 7. Mimmasgar Prison for the body 72. Inter pretouts haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A true exposion of the 7. v. of the 142. Ps. Munster and Flam. vpō Ps. 142. 7. and the argument of the Ps in Hebrue befor●… the psal Nephes Bede Esay 42. 7. Beza Prison 1. Peter 3. Christ fetched out of hell nether the obedient nor disobedient August Euod Epist. 99. these disobedient were be fore the floud An fallible argument This s●…irite is not Chistes sou●…e An other argu ment To whom pr●… ched Christ A syllogisme Annius vpon Berosus pa. The arke was 7 or 8. forlonges in lengthe Euodius Epist. 99. August Euodius Epist. 99. The. 18. obiection 1. Peter 4 The Gospell preched to th●… dead Dead Te●…tullian ad uersns ma●…cio lib 5. Dead is onely proper to the body The deade Gospell preached to Adam Of this reade my note vpon 1. P●…r 4. This is the truthe The 19 obiect Mich. 2. 13. The 20 obiec tion Iohn 14. 3. what neded Christ to goe prepare aplace when as heauē was empty for as yet there were none in heauen as the Papistes hold Ther is roume ynough where there are none inhabitantes Iohn 13. 21. Iohn 13. 23. Math. 26. 31. Iohn 13. 28. Math. 25. 34. The ●…1 obi●… tion The common Crede The 22. obiec tion Rom. 4. 2●… August de temp serm Tom. 10. Tom. 3. This patche was not in S. August dayes August de Symb. ad Cathe lib. 1. c. 3. 5. lib 3. c. 6. lib. 4. cap. 6. Tom. 9. Tom. 6. Chrisostome expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hades 〈◊〉 Graue Many bodyes 〈◊〉 with Christ. Tom. 4. in ep ad Cor. 15. ho 40. Discendit ad inferna expoū ded ●…om ●… 3. 4. Baptisme Esays meaning is tha●… Cyru●… should breake the barrs of Baby lon and deliuer the Israelites pa. 32 psal 32. Chrisostome hom 75. vpon Math. After this life no helpe Ruffinns who made this crede and when Ruffine crede is in Hierom Tom. 2. and in the proemy apol pamph pro origene The Apostels were authors and rule of all ●…ounde doctrine Iohn herolte whē the crede was made valla can not tell who made it Act. 122. T●… apostels dispersed Simbolum th●… 12. article●… The. 1. articl●… Augustine and Herolt disagre Pseudo Augustine de temp se●… 115 Howe coulde this laines bee at the onncell at Hierusalem Act 15 when as he was kylled by Herode Act. 12. Herolte makethe Iames that was dead to make an Ar ticle Pseud August Discorde August Tom. 3. de fide et Symbolo whiche he addeth in a boke de Symb. ad Cath. Chrisost. Tom 5. de Symb. 〈◊〉 ad in feros expounded Read the 13. obiection Hade Neither haue they all nor orderly Many Credes The first wher in Christes descendinge is lefte out Ignatius in epist ad Mag. Theoderet Poly●…ardns in ●… Past. ad Phil. Iustinus in Apo●…oget 2. Ireneus li. 1. c 2 Tertull. de pr●… scrip pag. 92. 769. Origen in proemi lib. de princ●…pus Gregory Neo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 descended interpreted Burved des cended bothe one Gen. 37. 2. The Councel of N●…ce The Councell of 〈◊〉 Simbolum patrum Stirdion in 〈◊〉 ●…re of 〈◊〉 32. In the yeare of Christ. 35 〈◊〉 Decended into 〈◊〉 Erasmns 〈◊〉 Augnstinus Euod 99. Abrahams bosome Vpon the. 11. chap. of Iohn No soule in heauen till the the resurrection Tom. 8. pag. ●…81 Augustine placethe th●… soules in no better place after Christ then he doth before Rede epist. 99. to Euodius Tom. 4. p. 66 ad Dulcy 8. quest 2. In Euch. c. 109. Tom. 3. Tom. 9. in Iohn 5 tract 19. pa. 172. De eiuit lib. 13. c. 10. Tow. 5. pa. 715. A ●…itel before 〈◊〉 said that the sonles were in Abrahames bosom Discorde Tom. 4. pa. 353. quest Euod lib. 2. c. 3s The 32. obiec tion Iguatius falsi fied Trallis is a 〈◊〉 ty of Asia 〈◊〉 Ignatius wordes * he meaneth the dead bo dies that rose with Christ to whome he gi ueth l●…fe Prosopopoia Actes 2. 24. 〈◊〉 1. 1. * with vs 9. of the clocke ‡ 12 of the clock * 3. of clock at afternoone ‡ The sabaoth * Sonday ‡ in the graue * Friday ‡ Saturday If he had gone to hell what rest should he haue had The 24 obiec Clemens Alex andrinus 215. Strom. 5. 6. Fathers without faith Christ the Apostles p●…ea ched in ●…ell Glements errors confuted Law co●…dem neth Rom. 3. ●…0 4. 15. Gal. 2. 18. 21. Philosophy doth not iustify Coloss. 2. 8. Rom 4. v. 9. 11. 12 13. 14. Abrahā father of the faithful Faith Dilemma Strom. 3. Strom. 1. In protrept Strom 3. 5 The 25. ob●… 〈◊〉 The dirige alleadged Iob was neue●… in hell The 〈◊〉 obiection Pardons Lutz ●…in tract de purgator ●…ope the iudg of the quick dead extra qui fil●…i sunt leg c. per veun Decretalls 4. lib. cap. 13. Tit. 17. Apinus also vpon the 16 Ps. In sermon de resurr The 27. obiection Christ descended into hell to visite his frendes The 28. obiection Christ descended for generall iustice Heb. 7. ●…7 ●…eb 9. 28. 1. Pet. 3. 1●… The 28. obiection He descended for to haue Victory T●…e 30. obiection Ch●…ist descended for an example The 31 obiection Damascene vp on 3. Sent. Christ descended to reproue the deuells ●… The 32. obiection Inf●…tes with out Baptisme dampned Hell proued by poets He might as well haue proued ir by Hom●…r Sillius Claudian if he had red so far ●…sarius Christ descen in●…o hell Samsons gate●… Valerius Maximus The gulfe that Curtius leaped into Limbus patrum Curtius was Christ. Alex de Ale●… part 3 sum 9. 9 Art 4. tom in 3. dist 23. A●… 1 9 1 2 Bonau in 3. dist 22. Art 1 9. 4. Bloud dropped in at the holle where the crosse stood Iohn Baptiste ●…alked in hell Esay●… Zachary Boua●… 3. dist 22. art 1. 9. 3. Thom. in the same dist art 1. 9. 6. The Pope He●…mes Ro●… 16. 14. Math. 11. ●… Many places in hell Sillius lib. 13. Bucchingerus Paradise Paradise papistical Olimpio in 3. c. Eccles. Viues vpon Augustine de ciuita 13. c. 21. Cortesius vpō Lombardus lib. 2. dist 5. Gen 2. Ioseph 1. c. 3. Lyra vpon Ge 2. Scotus Bonet Albertus Auicena Poly bius Eratost hen●…s Lyra vpo●… Gen. 2. Epiphaniu●… Paradise 〈◊〉 restriall Geropius Bo canus will haue it to be iu Iude who is to be read Paradise Gen. 13. 10. Ca●…t 4. 15. Eccles. 24. 34. c. 10. verse ●…7 Ezech 28. 13. Paradise Heb. 12. 22. 23. 14. Reuel 21. 22. Paradise Eccles 44. 15. Heb. 11. 5. 2. kinges 2. 1. Eccles. 28. 13. 1 Math. 2. 58. Par●…dise is hea uen August 1. Tom 1. de Gen ad Lit. con●…ra