departed receiue by the assistance of the Church To admit it euident and concerning succour which soules departed receiue and that by the assistance of the Church yet first I say you go from your word no such contrariety heer as you pretend Secondly you are a poor Ignaro that think soules must needs be in Purgatory that receiue assistance from the Church It may be your poor vnderstanding will wonder at it but knowe Sir I can admit Praier for the Dead and deny your Purgatory I can giue you reasons to pray for the Dead and yet keep farre enough from your Purgatory But for that some other time At present I answer You are a silly man that call this an euident place one of the hardest in all Scripture Quid sit baptizari pro mortuis obscurum est ab Authoribus variè exponitur say your owne men which is true For till this day it is not agreed what is the meaning no man can say This is the sense and yet our Blunderer saith It is euident Doo you knowe that some take pro mortuis for the Dead that is for sinnes because men die through sinnes and the works of sin are called Dead works And so men are baptized to be deliuered from sinne These men dreamt not of Purgatory That others vse pro mortuis that is doo represent the Dead because we die to sinne in Baptism and are buried vnto corruption And not much differing hence that others take it Into the death of Christ which of these thought vpon Purgatory Again some take Baptism for affliction men afflicted vnto death what shall they doo if the dead rise not again Some referre it vnto a Iewish custome by which if a man had died polluted another was clensed and washed for him that so beeing dead hee might get aduantage by it This Iewish Fable may happely look vpon your Purgatory and much good may it doo you Yet farther Chrysostome relateth vpon this place that when any of the Catechized among the Marcionite Heretiques died a liuing body was laid vnder the Beer and the question proposed vnto the Party If he would be baptized for you knowe the Catechumeni were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbaptized The Party answered for the dead man Yes I will and so was hee baptized for him And thus they expounded Saint Paul's meaning Tertullian by dead vnderstandeth the body of man If there be no Resurrection to what end is the body baptized Epiphanius lastly and most men commonly take it for the baptizing of the Clinici as they called them Men in those times vsually deferred Baptism vntill their death and in extremis would be baptized So to be baptized for the Dead is to be baptized when men are ready to dy which they not doe but vpon hope of the Resurrection In such variety and greater than so yet saith this fellowe An euident place To come home to the assertion It is plaine and euident the Apostle speaketh not of any succour that soules departed receiued from the Suffrages of the Church which were it granted no necessity of Purgatory would ensue but of comfort that men receiued from that mayne point of our most holy faith the Resurrection of the Dead the mayne Subiect of that Chapter as euery child with vs can tell See more for wee haue seene but little hitherto 2. Tim. 1. 18. where That day is transmued into Purgatory For Saint Pauls words are The Lord grant vnto him that he may find mercy with the Lord at that day that is may bee deliuered out of Purgatory at the day of Iudgement So wheresoeuer God sheweth mercy there is Purgatory or All that finde mercy at the day of Iudgement come out of Purgatory Vnlesse this bee his meaning let him tell me what he would haue with Saint Paul here If this bee his meaning I wish him well for sure hee is in no right wits because so no man liuing can escape Purgatory by this inference For no man but findeth mercy with God before that time and then No man but needeth Gods mercy then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In that fearfull and terrible day when wee stand in need of great mercy indeed saith Chrysost who neuer dreamt of any Purgatory nor would haue sent Onesiphorus thither had hee fancied any such thing for euen according to your owne Doctrine his good deeds had not onely aboundantly merited for himselfe sufficiently satisfied for his Peccadilloes but his Indurances ouer and aboue layd somewhat vnto the Church-treasure And what hath Purgatory to do with such a man Esay 4. 4. the Prophet speaketh of the Spirit of burning and of Purging thus When the Lord shall wash the filthines of the daughter of Sion purge the blood of Ierusalem out of the midst thereof by the Spirit of iudgement and by the Spirit of burning then without all doubt Purgatory burneth apace the rather because Saint Augustine expoundeth it of Purgatory Lib. 20. de Ciuit. Dei Cap. 25 saith Bellar. You left vs to seeke Cap. 21 say others so your selues are to seeke I meane for any such thing in Saint Augustine For hee is belied in both places which touch not vpon Purgatory at all but manifestly designe the last Iudgement In the 21. he professes himself that his discourse was wholly therof à primo Saluatoris aduentu vsque ad vltimū Iudiciū de quo nunc agimus And more euidently Cap. 25. Videtur euidentius apparere in illo Iudicio quodam quorundā futuras Poenas purgatorias Purgatory paines are by S. Augustine put off and adiourned vnto the last Iudgement then to begin when yours end and this but in opinion not resolution Now Sir what aduantage haue you by Saint Augustine who speaketh opiningly of Purgatory but excludeth your Purgatory And to as much purpose is Saint Basil expounding the place of Esay 9. 18. of Purgatory you say The text is For wickednes burneth as a fire it deuoureth the briers and thornes and will kindle in the thick places of the Forrest and they shall mount vp like the lifting vp of smoke Basil in his exposition nameth purging fire I grant it but this purging fire is in life not after death in this world not in the world to come and God himselfe is this purging fire who abolisheth and consumeth iniquitie by Repentance being detected by confession as any man may see that will but looke vpon the place and the same Father vpon the 10. of Esay more plainely explicateth his owne meaning Pandit hic naturam ignis quia lustratiuus est et purgatorius Sanctificabit enim ipsum quasi in igne ardenti Quomodo autem sanctificat ignis Quia comesturus est syluam tanquam foenū Sanè ex quo Deus noster ignis consumens est consumet syluā et vitia quae à syluā siue materiâ promanant animae quae non degit in spiritu sed in carne Strange conceits that if any Father name purging fire hee must needs bee a
there is none So that the Holy ghost is made to speake plaine non-sense to fit a turne for a Catholique cause This may stand and yet the Protestants assersion be not infeebled He expounded vnto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himselfe For they doe not deny but that some things are hard That other cannot stand For it implieth that all things are hard So we haue obseruable a pretty niggling tricke of a false knaue a small word In left out to marre all For with In the text is for this and no more Some things in Scripture needed exposition and therefore were hard But without In though there be no Sense but what simple Proselyte attendeth to that the implication is All Scriptures need Interpretation and so are all hard which the good Catholique beleeueth not himselfe dareth not auouch yet faine would haue his nouice take it so to traduce the tenent of the Protestants that some Scriptures are open and easie Thus in the very in-steppe of his stolen pamphlet he belyeth the Protestant for his opinion abuseth the Scripture to bolster his Forgery and yet for all that fighteth onely with his owne fancy as dogges by moone-light barke at their owne shadowes To your question then inferred vpon the premises I answere first As easie to be vnderstood of the vnlearned now as of them then who were none of the Learned ones at that time and had incident impediments at that time Secondly scriptures hard then vnto them may be and are easie now without any such Interpretation For one Day teacheth another and especially in Predictions as these all were that is after easie which at first was hard If now they be not easie there is no explicite faith implicite faith must saue all Sir Gagger whosoeuer you are know that Scripture is not all of one height depth or alloy Some was hard that now is easie Some easie now and euer Some yet hard but not for euer To be vnderstood but not in the way only in visione faciei when wee shall see face to face and know God as we are knowne and some points at least explicitely not now to bee vnderstood nor yet then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was a secret a mystery saith Basil of Seleucia at the beginning shall neuer cease to be a mystery In some point or other the worke of our Redemption in Christ he meaneth See more who list they shall see nothing to purpose No Scripture saith Saint Peter is of priuate motion or Interpretation as you will Ergo what All Scripture is hard Teach me this Consequence and I will thanke you for my New-Logicke This I doe see where the Scripture is hard and needeth interpretation there that Spirit which dictated it at first must direct in the vnderstanding it at last For man is permitted to expound himselfe and best can giue his owne meaning So this Text is not to proue that Scripture is hard but to proue that in Case there be a Doubt we are not to addresse vnto priuate Fancies or peculiar opinions but to the Direction of Gods Spirit and that in the Church I subscribe Math. 13. 11. 36. it is remembred that Christ taught the People in Parables Well what if he did Why a Parable is a darke kinde of speech so that there is obscurity in the Scriptures I answer No man denyeth but there is obscurity No man denieth but Parables are obscure Some not all In some things not in all Those Parables were obscure admit it that are remembred there but they are not all the Parables that are in Scripture Nor are Parables the hundreth part of Scripture and many of them are of easie vnderstanding and many are expounded where proposed and when vnderstood best remembred most beneficiall to the Hearer Luke 24. 45. Then opened hee their vnderstandings that they might vnderstand the Scripture which act of our Sauiour vnto and vpon his Disciples at that time slow of heart may rather excite vnto then detar from the Reading of the Scriptures For that which hee did to them personally he will doe vnto all mediately and doth it vnto the simplest actually of those that are interessed in him though but by a generall tye For the poorest member of the Church doth now vnderstand that which he taught them that he was the Messiah the Promised seede according vnto Prophecies and Predictions of old then hard now easie 1 Cor. 12. 8. Saint Paul speaking of diuersity of guifts saith To one is giuen by the spirit the word of wisdome to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit which words are as much against vnderstanding Scriptures hard by interpretation as Scriptures easie with interpretation For those that haue it haue it by guift immediate by God without helpe or instruction Those that haue it not by warrant of this place and goe no further cannot haue it at all because these things remembred were all of Infusion of extraordinary indowment and so singular and peculiar Againe admit it in common course yet it is rather a warrant for facility of Scripture because there are designed Expositors or if for difficulty because expositors are needfull yet this difficulty is but in some to some not vniuersall of which we must be vnderstood and of no other if wee be rightly taken Luke 18. 34. The Disciples vnderstood none of those things Doth it follow they vnderstood not any thing in the Law or Prophets which were the Scriptures of those times If you cannot read a letter in Cipher can you not read a plaine letter in Italique hand Those things beside that they were not then written and so no part of Scripture and so not to purpose were particular and personall and not performed Now they are performed now they are in Scripture now easie to be vnderstood of all without Expositors the Sufferings of our Sauiour at Ierusalem To them then they were hidden are they now to you Catholikes Doe you not know Christ suffered at Ierusalem If you doe not I grant Scripture is hard and hidden but hidden vnto those that perish onely because they will hud-winke themselues and not see Not a Lixa Calo or Agaso not a shepheard or muleter but doth or else may know this now which then was a secret not knowen vnto many many particulars not vnto the blessed Virgin her selfe such difference there is in things wrought by time so little wisdome to take things at all times alike and to conclude alike Indeed the same that is the thing in question as little as those Texts doe and to as little purpose as those texts doe Irenaeus Lib. 2. 47. Hauing insisted vpon and instanced in obscurity in Gods word in Nature he proceedeth vnto Gods word in Scripture thus Si ergo in rebus creaturae quaedam quidem eorum adiacent Deo quaedam autem in nostram venerunt scientiam quid mali est si et eorum quae in scripturis requiruntur vniuersis
Booke against the Pelagians who pleaded then as our Romane Catholiques doe now hath these words God hath commanded things possible No man doubteth Possible in themselues absolutely though not to vs as the Case now standeth respectiuely Possible vnto vs when they were first commanded though not so possible since the commandement For God made man right and gaue him a Law Since that hee hath intangled himselfe many wayes Possible now in part though not in all to some men albeit not generally vnto all It plainly appeareth what Hierome meant for he addeth Sed quia homines possibilia non faciunt idcircò omnis mundus subditus est Deo indiget misericordiâ eius But because men doe not that which of it selfe is possible therefore all the World is subiected vnto God and standeth in neede of his mercy So that hee explaineth his owne meaning They were possible in themselues though not possible vnto man Secondly some things possible at some time to some men though not to all men at all times And so is that to be vnderstood which Bellarmine hath out of the same Hierome in Mat. 5. omitted by this Collector because not found in his good Founder C. W. B. Multi praecepta Dei imbecillitate suâ non Sanctorum viribus aestimantes putant esse impossibilia quae praecepta sunt to wit those Precepts explained vpon the Law Loue your enemies Doe good to those that hate you Et dicunt sufficere virtutibus non edisse inimicos Caeterum Diligere plus praecipi quam humana Natura patiatur Sciendum est ergo Christum non impossibilia praecipere sed perfecta Quae fecit Dauid in Saul Absolon Stephanus quoque Martyr pro inimicis lapidantibus deprecatus est Many men measuring the Commandements of God not by the performings of Saints but their owne weaknesse account things impossible by God commanded and account it enough for a vertuous man not to hate his enemies As for that To loue them it is a Precept beyond humane possibility But wee must know Christ commanded not impossible but perfect things Such as Dauid did in Saul and towards Absolon And that blessed Martyr Stephen prayed for them that stoned him So it is not obscure what the Fathers meant by that It is possible to keepe the Lâ—w. In it selfe not impossible At some times not impossible In part not impossible they neuer came to this presumption Any man at any time All the Law Therefore Iustine Martyr against Tryphon saith vpon that Text Cursed is euery one that doth not obserue all the Precepts of the Law to doe them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Your selues dare not say it and what the Iewes durst not say you dare sweare that any man hath perfectly kept them all But there are that haue obserued some more some lesse in those things that were commanded I grant with Hierome Lib. 2. c. Pelagian That many men haue liued iust and righteous But I doe not grant that euer any man was without sinne Sine omni autem peccato fuisse omnino non assentior If any man imagine hee hath obtained that perfection Aut superbus aut stultus est He is no letter then a proud foole All that I can challenge in the height of my perfection is but onely that of Saint Augustine Meritum meum misericordia Domini The mercies of the most high are my merits Therefore wee professe with earnest deprecation Enter not into iudgement with thy seruants O Lord For in thy sight shall no flesh be iustified And If thou shalt be seuere to marke what is done amisse who O Lord shall endure it Iob neuer aduanced his perfection to the fulfilling of all that God commanded though 27. 6. he vseth those words in your Translation Non reprehendit me Cor meum My heart hath not reproued me all my dayes For his meaning is As long as I liue I will maintaine my Innocency that I haue not dissembled in my heart This I will stand to euerlastingly and not betray my owne Cause Otherwise as Saint Gregory hath obserued here Se peâ—cesse superius accusat He hath formerly accused himselfe of sinne Nor doth God excuse him from all breach of the Commandement who giueth him that Testimony 1. 22. Ioh did not sinne For it is limited In all this and yet not sinne in that sort as to Charge God with iniustice Sciendum est We are to know saith Gregory that there are some kinde of sinnes which the righteous men canauoid and there are sinnes which the most righteous cannot auoid If sins then needs against some Commandement For no Sinne but is a Transgression of the Law If against the Law then the Law is not kept in doing them and if the most Righteous cannot but doe them surely the most Righteous cannot keepe the Law This was once the Doctrine of the Romane Church For Gregory hath it that was Bishop of Rome in his Morals Lib. 27. and 7 Chapter vpon Iob. Hath that Church then left her ancient Faith XVII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation COntrouersies are sometime multiplied vnnecessarily by these Romance Catholiques to iangle the more and sometime hudled vp by confounding many to deceiue the more as in this present Question of Faith iustifying a great Controuersie And workes concurring as maine a diuersity vnto Saluation Though distinction of parts be fit to teach and giueth life and lustre vnto discourse yet seeing it hath pleased this fellow to confound these two we must goe on with him in his wild-goose race vp and downe To iustifie is a word of Christian learning onely yet taken and deriued from externall Courts and iudiciary proceedings in Cases of Accusation and Defence In which regard it hath a three-fold extent vpon a three-fold seuerall act First to make iust and righteous Secondly to make more iust and righteous Thirdly to declare and pronounce iust and righteous Not exactly obserued in humane Courts I grant For no Iudge can make a man what he is not he can finde him what he is and make him appeare so more and more by euidence and at last declare him and pronounce him so by publike sentence of absolution But for those three seuerall acts in the iustification of a Sinner the Scripture plainely it cannot be denied doth distinguish them thus Rom. 4. 5. He that belieueth in him that iustifieth the vngodly Augustine vpon the 30. Psalme expoundeth it thus Who is it that iustifieth the Wicked Hee that of a wicked man maketh a righteous So Rom. 3. 20. 24. and 1 Cor. 6. 11. For there is a two-fold state of man in this world The one Originall as he is conceiued and borne in sinne and accordingly produceth in life and actions the cursed workes of a bitter roote The other Acquisite renewed according to the Spirit vnto the state of perfection with God Of Nature wherein Of Grace whereto In Nature there is nothing cleane or pure that