cause in deed For neither is infinitenesse nor the vbiquity depending thereon the only proper cause that any thing is incorporal but some other thing els As for example an omnipresence or if so I may speake an incorporiety is truely in God howbeit God is incorporal not so much in regard of his vbiquity as because he is a simple spirit Angels in like sort are therefore incorporal in their proper degree because they be spirits but yet created spirits and they are therefore local because they be finite substances Thus then your said author his first argument afordeth smal force you see to your present purpose Lycanthropus But he argueth secondly thus Whatsoeuer is incorporal that also is inuisible spirites and diuels they are not inuisible therefore also not incorporal Orthodoxus First the assumption is meerely false because it maketh spirits and diuels naturally visible which al men do know to be otherwaies by common experience For who euer hath hitherto seene or could possibly perceiue a spirit or diuel as they are in their proper nature Againe in the proposition he failes as before by pretending a cause which is not the cause For the denying of a corporal or bodily beeing is not the proper cause of inuisibility but the absence the vitiousnesse the depriuation or fault of some other thing els which are necessarily required in the action of seeing Besides that by this argument a man might also deny the aiery element to be a body or corporal substance for who can possibly behold or sensibly see the purity of the ayre it selfe Thus then your old fathers you see they in deed and in truth are not interessed at al in that misbegotten ofspring which your selfe so desirously but yet fasly would father vpon them and therefore let vs now here what better hap with the new Lycanthropus With a very good will First Rhodiginus he affirmeth confidently that spirits and diuels haue their proper bodies Orthodoxus How should he so confidently affirme his opinion not hauing the conformitie and concord of truth consorting therewith Besides that Rhodiginus he proues his assertion by the bare and onely authority of Augustine the which auctority and opinion of his as you haue heard it disproued before so surely Rhodiginus himselfe he doth dangerously crosse and annihilate it by opposing many vnauoidable exceptions of scholemen against the same And therefore Rhodiginus his authority is nothing authenticall or currant concerning your question Lycanthropus But Caietanus explaining these the Apostles words according to the prince of the airie spirits or powers he is not afraide to affirme that it holdeth best with reason and sound Philosophie to beleeue that spirits and diuels are constituted naturally of airie bodies Orthodoxus Doth Caietanus say so indeed Oh the wit that abounds in a Cardinals hat But what is his reason I pray you Lycanthropus He hath a reason that knockes it dead namely this Euen as saith he the vegetatiue substance is found without the sensitiue and the sensitiue without the motiue and an intellectiue without either sensitiue or motiue according to place so is it credible that an intellectiue may be found without a sensitiue with a motiue onely according to place and such saith he are spirits and diuels Orthodoxus Doth Caietanus conclude as you say Now faire fall his good hart for his cunning conclusion surely he himselfe alone hath striken the Popingaie dead This I confesse is an admirable argument Howbeit this I must tell you that such maner of arguments howsoeuer they may seeme at a blush to giue a glimmering shewe of conueniencie they haue in them verie small force to conuince And without doubt if Caietanus his conclusion be canonized currant it might in like maner be granted that the sensitiue substance is to be found without the vegetatiue and the intellectiue with the sensitiue without the motiue according to place and so no one thing shall be wanting which may tende to the generalitie and absolutenesse of such kinde of couplings togither Which when all is done your opinion for any thing Caietanus concludes is like to lie in the dust Exorcistes Yea but Georgius he affirmeth plainely that spirits and diuels are not onely corporall and airie substances but that they haue in them also the power of generation and can shedde forth seed for that purpose Howbeit when they come to a woman saith he then they do contract gather togither or thicken their airie bodies fashioning them fitte for the purpose which they presently affect yea and that also their ofsprings are properly Gyants Orthodoxus Notwithstanding Georgius his impudent and shamelesse affirmation of a matter so shamefull I will at no hand be drawne any longer to heare it much lesse doe I giue credite vnto it and which more is I will neither defile my toong nor infect your chaste eares with the filthie contagion thereof it being so impossible in nature and so incredible in all sound Diuinitie Howbeit if any of the learned be further desirous to heare this his grosse impudencie and foolerie more fully confuted I referre them ouer to the learned Treatises of such as haue sifted that offensiue argument vnto the bran More especially to the seuerall workes of Wierus Engubinus Casmannus Aristotle Frisiuss Scaliger Cassianus and others who do euery of them so soundly beate downe this your Georgius his grosse assertion as I my selfe shall not neede to deale in it at all Lycanthropus But yet Zanchius a man of excellent learning he not onely enclineth that way but holdeth withall this my opinion of corporall spirits Orthodoxus Zanchius imbraceth the same I confesse as the more probable opinion in his conceite but what manner of bodies spirits and diuels should haue he doth not determine That they haue airy bodies he seeth not he saith how the same should be proued But he verely supposeth spirits and diuels to haue other manner of bodies then either airie or celestiall bodies and that the substance of their bodies is more like to the substance of that heauen of the blessed which is properly called the Empyrial or fiery heauen Thus this excellent learned man he doth giue among others his coniecturall opinion concerning the bodies of spirits and diuels A coniectural opinion I say very purposely consonant to that other opinion which himselfe and some others doe hold about the creation of Angels in that the forenamed heauen of the blessed Howbeit neither Zanchius nor any of the rest do certeinly determine this matter in question Lycanthropus Well yet Zanchius and the other they purposely encline to this my opinion concerning corporall spirits and diuels Orthodoxus Not so For whereas your selfe do certainly hold that spirits and diuels are endued with grosse and airie bodies Zanchius and some others suppose they do rather consist of empyriall or fierie bodies as was shewed before where also I haue purposelie put downe the speciall reason of this
their coniecturall opinion Howbeit for a further declaration heereof I do answer with Gregorie Beda Damascene the Schoolemen and others who doe all iointly affirme that euen as the knowledge of spirits and diuels in comparison of our knowledge is verie excellent and woonderfull large although yet in comparison of God the same is but shallow and shorte so surely those the supposed bodies of spirites and diuels in comparison of our earthly and palpable bodies may fitlie be saide to be spirituall whereas yet in comparison of the omnisufficient and incircumscriptible spirit of spirites they may after a sort be saide to be corporall And this our censure concerning corporall spirites being rightly vnderstood as it ought to be that is being graunted comparatiuely may very well stande with the truth For certeine it is that Angels are not spirites purely simple as God is most simple neither are they infinite and incircumscriptible spirits as God alone is but are marshalled within their proper dimensions and bounds All which being graunted it doth not thereupon necessarily folow that therefore Angels they are not created incorporall finite spirits and such as after their manner are limitted definitiuely within their proper dimensions but this rather folowes thereof namely that therefore spirits and diuels they are not most simple most infinite illocal nor omnipotent powers For the specialls do alwaies retaine the common nature of their generall and therein they fitly accord howsoeuer by reason of some repugnant formes they doe otherwaies dissent among themselues And thus your Fathers you see both old and new they are fully answered concerning their supposed mannaging of this your opinion of corporal spirits or diuels Philologus Are you able Lycanthropus to reply to his answere Lycanthropus I am vtterly vnable But sir sith you so confidently do hold that spirits and diuels are incorporall let vs heare your reasons and authorities concerning this point Orthodoxus With very good will my reasons are these First spirits and diuels haue not flesh and bones saith Christ as you see me to haue Wherein it is very apparant that there is one substance of humane bodies and another of spiritual powers Spirits they haue neither flesh nor bones therefore they cannot be comprehended with the sight of the eie nor handled by the sense of feeling both which are proper to the sensible perceiuing of humane bodies Againe the Lord saith the Apostle hath made his spirits his messengers and his ministers a flame of fier The which place albeit Dauid doth properly vnderstand of the operation of winds yet for as much as the Apostle applieth the same to the Angels it is not to be doubted at all but as the name Spirit so likewise a spirituall essence appertaineth vnto them Againe we read that a legion of diuels namely sixe thousand sixe hundred sixtie and sixe possessed the man in the Gospell whom Christ deliuered But if diuels be corporall substances and doe essentially enter into the bodie of man it is vtterly impossible that there should so many be crouded together and all contained at once within the narrow corners of an humane bodie Exorcistes Some doe hold there was in deed but one onely diuell in the possessed whose name was Legion Orthodoxus As though it were possible that one onely diuell could be really inherent in two seuerall persons at once Besides that it is verie apparant in Marke and in Luke that there was not one but many diuels yea and Mathew also exchanging the name of one into many he saith the diuels besought Christ that they might goe into the heard of swine Exorcistes Sir I onely haue shewed you what some others doe hold but proceed in your purpose Orthodoxus I proceed thus The spirits or soules of men are incorporall therefore spirits and diuels are also incorporall For if the reasonable soule or spirit of a man be not corporall in any respect I meane if it be neither solide nor palpable as are the earthie and terrestriall bodies neither yet subtile or slender as are the airie and celestiall bodies then without doubt spirits and diuels they are likewise incorporall because they also are spirits For the nature and definitions of a spirit and a bodie do altogither and in euery respect differ betweene themselues And thus besides those Philosophicall reasons which Physiologus propounded before you haue hetherto heard from the Scriptures such seuerall arguments as doe verie plainely conclude the non being of corporall spirites or diuels Pneumatomachus Beleeue me Lycanthropus before we began this our conference I doubted greatly of the essentiall being of spirits and diuels Howbeit now I am cleere in that point and by this discourse doe farther perceiue them to be admirable and woonderfull powers Lycanthropus Verie true as you saie But sir let vs heare I beseech you your authorities also concerning this point Orthodoxus With verie good will Wherein I assure you that this our opinion concerning incorporall spirits and diuels is generallie receiued in the church of God approoued by the consent of many Diuines and confirmed fully from the Laterane Councel Lycanthropus For the generall receite thereof in the Church I make little doubt but let vs heare now your seuerall authorities Orthodoxus Content First Dionysius writeth thus Wee account not saith he the celestiall and deified powers or spirits to consist of innumerable feete or to haue a manifold countenance neither yet to be like vnto liuing and corporall creatures albeit the sacred Scriptures in speaking of them doe vse these Poeticall and fained formes Chrysostome he saith the Seraphimes are called spirits that is incorporall and supernaturall powers And a little after he saith they be called fierie or flaming creatures because their substance is most pure Augustine be defineth them thus Angels and diuels are spirituall powers incorporall substances inuisible insensible reasonable intellectuall and immortall the good ones they are shining and impassible the euill ones blacke and passible Theodoret he saith that God created the vniuersall nature of incorporall substances constituting decreeing and ordeining their said nature to be intellectuall and also immortall Andreas of Ierusalem he saith that Angels and spirites are all without their bodies Gregorie also he saith in like sort that spirits and diuels they haue no flesh Isidore he saith that Angels and diuels according to their nature are called spirits Damascene he saith that Angels and spirits are intellectuall substances euermore mooueable and free by the arbiterment of their proper power incorporall the ministers of God obtaining immortalitie by grace not by nature the portraiture bounds of whose substantiall being onely the creatour of spirites he knoweth himselfe Carolus magnus he saith the essentiall substance of Angels and diuels is immortall because they be spirits by nature Vigerius Saonensis he saith that Angels are all of them spirituall substances without any bodies at all consisting of vnderstanding and will and
to answere Augustine by Augustine himselfe both in the very same booke and else where besides Wherein he flatly affirmeth that the angels do outwardly helpe vs by certaine visible apparitions or sights which they propose offer before our eies Those selfesame apparitions hauing not onely an apt resemblance of naturall bodies but which also are subiected vnder their Angelicall auctoritie and power Thus the Augustine you see is so variable in himselfe concerning this point as no certaintie can be concluded of that which he speakes Lycanthropus By this one shift you may easily shift ouer what truth soeuer the holy fathers affirme Ortâ—odoxus I neuer yet sought to shake of any truth by shifts Neither doe I preiudice Augustine or any of the fathers by viewing and reiecting their variable opinions for so Augustine in his latter Retractions oft times reiecteth himselfe And howsoeuer Augustine or your selfe doe dreame in this point very certaine I am as was shewed before that the good Angels of God in their orderly execution of any peculiar office appointed by God were neuer essentially mingled with the minds of the godly No verely but in all their ambassages they doe either manifest themselues by seeing and hearing or assist vs eftsoones by some other sensible meanes howbeit they at no hand do helpe vs by any reall commixture of their proper substances together with ours No that God of order who ordereth all things in number in waight and in measure hauing decreed no such course at all would at no hand permit such confusion of substances nor endure such shamefull disorder among anie his creatures in heauen or in earth Lycanthropus Tell me then by what meanes they do hurt men Orthodoxus Not by any essentiall possession or reall commixture of themselues with mens mindes but by that selfesame effectuall power which euen now worketh mightily in the disobedient children By the efficacie also of which working power they become lying spirites in the mouthes of false prophets they worke lying woonders in all deceiueablenes of vnrighteousnes they buffet mens mindes with fearefull tentations they endeuour to sifte and to winnowe mens soules as men winnow wheate they circumuent them with wiles they make men vncleane they possesse them by deafenes they strike them with blindenes they subdue them through dumbnes they ouercome them by lamenesse yea and euen binde them as it were with diseases a long time togither Brieflie the diuel hauing power ouer death by the efficacie of that power he doth vexe and torment men within and without compassing ouer the earth running like a ramping roaring lyon continually about to deuoure Lycanthropus Yea but how should they possiblie either hurt or deuoure hauing in men no reall possession Orthodoxus You do ouer-grosly conceiue of the matter and with as good reason might aske me howe an enimie should possiblie hurt the captaine which keepeth an hold he hauing in the saide captaine no reall possession Howbeit this me thinke you might know by experience that notwithstanding the want of reall possession the enimie may many waies hurt the said captaine as by giuing him bribes to betray the hold by assaulting by battring by undermyning by pyning by wounding yea and by slaying some of his souldiers before his face All these and many moe annoiances the enimie may offer the captaine though not essentially inherent in the captaine himselfe yea and by the dispatching of these he cannot choose but vexe and torment the captaine himselfe euen as if he had really and substantially possessed his person After the selfe-same maner dealeth Satan with such as he is said to possesse For albeit he doth not substantially enter into the possessed mans minde which is as it were a grand-captaine ouer the bodie yet for all this the diuell that sworne aduersarie of man by deuising procuring applying and by ministring many strange sicknesses diseases and deathes to the bodie he doth no lesse violently vexe and torment the minde it selfe then if he were essentially entred therein Yea and all these the forenamed annoiances he effecteth at his owne will and pleasure Partly for that he is of long experience in mischief hauing bin a practitioner therein from the beginning of the world Partly thorough a more easie maner of knowing things he being very sharpe sighted throughly acute not needing those meanes which earthlie men neede to vnderstand and to find forth the natures effects and causes of things And partlie also by reason of the excellencie of their proper nature they being most speedelie caried from place to place being of infinite power in comparison of vs and being also of such an exquisite knowledge as eftsoones they vndertake by obseruing euents and by conferring of causes to coniecture the timelie successe of manie their mischeiuous enterprises By al the premisses then it is verie apparant that the diuel he hath such an effectuall power permitted vnto him as he needes not essentiallie enter mans mind to accomplish any his diuellish enterprises Lycanthropus If diuels enter not essentiallie into the possessed mans mind how should they possiblie encline or bow his saied mind to their purpose Orthodoxus Touching the enclining of mindes if we speake herein according to truth God alone is properlie said to worke in the minds of men and to encline their wils which waies he please although yet spirites and diuels they may also be considered as helpers herein howbeit such helpers no doubt as doe rather moue by external reasons then encline at al by internal actions And euen so the lying spirite in the mouth of Ahab his prophets was after a sort an helper to God Concerning therefore the enclining of minds we must here distinguish betweene the interiour efficient who onlie is God and the exteriour agent namelie spirites and diuels Againe the meanes whereby the exteriour agent doth worke is twofold The first is the external obiect of the mind it being apprehended of the vnderstanding for good and effectuallie offered also vnto the wil. For euerie facultie of the mind is especiallie moued by his proper obiect not only offered but apprehended also effectually The other external meanes enclining the mind is seated in those affections and passions that are placed in the sensitiue appetite namely lust anger loue and such like by which also the wil after a sort is inclined to something Now then spirites and diuels they are able by external obiects to stirre vp affections and passions in the sensitiue appetite Howbeit not simplie and absolutelie as God who is said to haue the hearts of kings in his hand and who also is able alone to encline mans wil effectuallie to whatsoeuer he please but after a sort and so far forth also as they by external reasons are able like councellours to perswade the wil vnto something For they cannot possiblie compel the wil the same
certainly so as that S. Donston did hold the diuell fast by the nose with a paire of pincers the very first day he appeared vnto him in such an assumed bodie wherein Donston serued the Diuell of trust and according to his due desertes to teach him to be medling with the worke of creation before he had gotte a Comission from God But alas Lycanthropus are you not highly ashamed to hold so maine absurd and horrible impieties or rather such execrable and intollerable blasphemies For be you throughly assured of this that your selfe imagening the diuell a creator of bodies you doe thereby ascribe vnto him a supernaturall power and therein also doe attribute that vnto diuels which onely is due vnto God because creation of substances was neuer yet graunted to man or Angell much lesse vnto diuels Besides that if it were in the power of diuels either to create or assume to them selues essentiall bodies at pleasure it is not then to be doubted but that such and so endlesse is their malice towards men we should shortly haue the whole world replenisht with corporall diuels yea and their number would farre surmount the number of men if all be true that is set downe in Salomons notes of coniuration Wherein are named seauentie nine principall diuels hauing euery of them vnder them and at their commaund some tenne twentie thirtie fortie fiftie sixtie seauentie yea and some of them eightie legions of diuels at the least So then howsoeuer your selfe shall otherwaies dreame of a power in Satan for assuming of bodies sith they can be no such bodies as are newly created either by God or the diuell sith they can be no bodies created before sith they can be no bodies of men either dead or aliue it must necessarily follow that those imagined bodies which the diuels are supposed to assume to them selues they are in deed and in truth no true naturall bodies Lycanthropus It is like then that the diuels they do onely assume to themselues but a phantasticall body Physiologus And it is like then that the diuels they haue onely in men but a phantasticall possession which is the very same issue you were brought vnto before when we discoursed of the mental possession of diuels Philologus How now Lycanthropus are you brought to a non-plus before you well wiste Lycanthropus I wot not I assure you which waies to winde my selfe out from these windings and turnings howbeit for any thing hitherto heard I will neuer beleeue but that the diuell can assume to himselfe a true naturall bodie Orthodoxus What man will you with such setled pertinacie dwell in your opinion not hauing sound reason therefore Lycanthropus Yes sir I haue reasons and authorities both support me therein Orthodoxus Let vs first heare your reasons Lycanthropus With verie good will wherein first from the like I doe reason thus The good Angels of God they haue appeered to men in assumed bodies therefore spirits and diuels they may also appeere vnto men in assumed bodies Orthodoxus Your argument is faultie the same not consisting of things essentially alike in euery respect For neither haue the infernall diuels those heauenly priuiledges which the celestiall Angels enioy neither yet are they equall with them in knowledge and power So as although the good Angels doe sometimes assume to themselues essentiall bodies yet doth it not necessarilie folow that therefore the euill Angels or diuels are able to do the like Againe howsoeuer the good Angels haue at some time assumed essential bodies yet doth it not appeer and your selfe cannot prooue that they created those bodies themselues but by the prouident power and appointment of God they had them from else where for that speciall seruice whereunto they were sent Moreouer there is no sound consequence in this viz. Good Angels they do visible appeere vnto men in assumed bodies therefore euill Angels they doe the like This I say doth not folow because of the good Angels appearing in visible bodies we haue had often and manifest experience but of the euill Angels appearing so no example or instance at all can be giuen Briefly your argument is but a deceaueable Elench from a may be to the being indeed whereof no certeine conclusion can folow For thus you reason Good Angels haue appeared to men in assumed bodies therefore spirites and Diuels they may also appeare vnto men in assumed bodies This your may be concludeth nothing for certeine Whereas you should haue argued thus Good Angels appeare in assumed bodies therefore spirits and diuels do appeare vnto men in assumed bodies but then your consequent woulde haue been ouer-hard to prooue and besides that it is the very question it selfe By the premisses then it is very apparant that this your first reason hath in it no reason at all to support your opinion Lycanthropus But sith it is certeine that the good Angels doe oftentimes appeare in assumed bodies why should not spirites and diuels be able to do the like Orthodoxus As though because the omnipotent God doth furnish and endowe his heauenly messengers with sensible bodies when and so oft as seemeth good to himselfe therefore euery impotent and infernall spirit or diuell is able also to do the like at their pleasures Lycanthropus Why may not the Lord do as much for spirits and diuels Orthodoxus The Lord may do whatsoeuer he please that it will be his good pleasure to do this which you dreame of who can certeinly say His pleasure in the one hath beene made apparant vnto vs by often experience for the other we haue neither worde nor promise nor example to my remembrance Exorcistes Yes there is a plaine proofe heereof in the Psalmes where Dauid saith plainly that the Lord powred foorth the fiercenes of his wrath vpon the Egyptians by sending his euill Angels among them Orthodoxus What vnderstand you by the euil Angel there Exorcistes Those spirits and diuels wherewith they were dailie tormented Orthodoxus Consider diligentlie the story concerning the Egyptian plagues and tel me where you find any one diuel afflicting them nay tel me what one plague was among them which was not inflicted vpon them by the message and ministery of Moses and Aaron And therefore you are deepely deceiued in mistaking these words by sending the Angels or messengers of euils Which place Tremellius vnderstands not of spirites and Diuels sent among them but of Moses and Aaron rather whom the Lord sent to the Egyptians as his only Angels that is the only messengers and executioners of all those his euils which were cast vpon Egipt And this sense is in my opinion according to the purpose coherence and scope of the Psalme it selfe Lycanthropus But it is as Exorcistes saith in the vulgar translation Orthodoxus It is true and therefore let it so stand as he saith for euil Angels I meane for spirits and diuels But now tel me withal how much this place doth make for the assuming of bodies by
your selfe the maine or principall actor that thereby you may arrogate to your selfe the glory due vnto God Exorcistes That is no part of my purpose And howsoeuer the Lord alone be the onely efficient of euery such admirable action yet in sundry scriptures you know it is an ordinary vse with the Lord eftsoones to grace his Ministers with that selfesame glory of the work which is proper alone to himselfe Orthodoxus Wee are not ignorant of the course of the scriptures concerning that point Howbeit when you seeme as hetherto you haue done to speake of your selfe besides the scope of the scriptures you must pardon vs then though we esteeme not your words as canonicall scriptures But goe to you cast foorth the diuel you say now by the power of God Do tel me therefore I pray you whether you acknowledge not that selfe-same power of the Lord a mere supernaturall power and much beyond the shallow reache of any your natural faculty to attaine vnto Exorcistes Yes I acknowledge so much Orthodoxus By what meanes then did your selfe so effectually apprehend that selfe same supernaturall power of God Exorcistes By the onely meanes of my praier and fasting as I told you before Orthodoxus And I also did verely suppose you had heard enough before concerning the insufficiency of that selfesame meanes considered alone in it selfe But go to you apprehended that supernaturall power of the Lord you say by the onely meanes of your praier and fasting Doe tel me therefore where you haue any promise throughout the whole scriptures that your praier and fasting for an effectuall apprehending of that power of the Lord in any such extraordinary actions shall be effectually heard of the Lord Exorcistes Why sir our Sauiour Christ he hath giuen an infallible promise concerning euerie such action saying Whatsoeuer you aske the Father in my name he will giue it vnto you Orthodoxus Do you imagine that those words of Christ containe such a promise as tendeth directly to an absolute warrant for euerie such enterpise how extraordinarie soeuer Exorcistes I do more then imagine for I make no question thereof Orthodoxus Well then put case you your selfe by praier and fasting should vndertake to entreate the Lord foorthwith to sende fire from heauen for the admirable destruction of antichrist himselfe and all his adherents would that selfesame petiton be graunted vnto you in an onely regard of your praier and fasting Exorcistes The prophet Elijah by his onely praier obtained as great a matter as this from the Lord. Orthodoxus You wot not I perceiue now what spirit you are of Doe first prooue directly vnto vs that you haue Elijah his spirit and then proceed in Gods name to Elijah his practise spare not Howbe it because from this generall promise of Christ you doe grosly imagine that very selfesame warranted assurance for the powerfull expelling of spirits by praier fasting which Elijah obtained against Azariah and his seruants by that his speciall praier to God I am willing you should dwell in that your preposterous opinion so you can demonstrate the truth thereof by any probabilitie or reason and therefore doe frame your owne argument from that selfesame promise Exorcistes I frame it thus Whosoeuer asketh any thing of God in the name of Christ he shall vndoubtedly obtaine his request But so many as by praier and fasting doe craue an extraordinarie power for the powerfull expelling of spirits they aske something of God in the name of Christ therfore they shal vndoubtedly obtaine their request Orthodoxus The verie frame of your argument is scarce in good frame For your assumption now as all men may plainely perceiue is absurdly fallen into a fearefull consumption Because howsoyour owne selfe by these preposterous practises presumed most grosly to prophane the name of Christ as hitherto you haue done verie certeine it is that such a request may not truely be said to be either made or put vp in the name of Christ. For to aske any thing truely in the name of Christ is either to aske that which onely appertaines to the glorie of his name and kingdome alone or else that thing especially which for our speciall good we hope to obtain at the hands of our God through the gratious prerogatiue of Christ his name After the first maner of asking Elijah he called for fire from heauen and the Apostles being fearefullie threatned entreated the Lord to stretch foorth his arme that healing and signes and woonders might be done by the name of his holie sonne Iesus After the second maner of asking doe all the faithfull entreate the Lord by praier and fasting for such spirituall graces as do necessarily concerne their owne and others saluation in Iesus Christ. And hereunto onely that the forenamed generall promise made by Christ hath a more speciall relation Now then that first maner of asking things in the name of Christ being onely peculiar to such as haue some speciall motion from the holie spirit of God for such speciall requests it specially behooueth your selfe in these your admirable enterpizes to be vndoubtedly assured of some such speciall motion from that selfesame spirit of God or euer you giue the aduenture so boldly vpon such an extraordinarie practise of any your praiers and fastings Otherwise this promise of Christ it appertaineth no further vnto you then you haue an apparant warrant from the word it selfe for the ordinarie disposing of those your second maner of sutes by the gracious prerogatiue of Christs name Exorcistes Why sir I had the plaine worde of Christ for my warrant where he telleth vs plainely that that this kind goeth not foorth but by praier and fasting Orthodoxus I was verely perswaded you had taken your fill of that text before But seeing you will fasten vpon this portion of scripture afresh I am very well willing you shall haue your full pleasure thereof And therefore doe tel me plainely I pray you whether by the words this kind in that place you do only distinguish spirits and diuels from all other creatures or whether you do seuerally consider those diuels themselues according to their sundry conditions Exorcistes Nay sir I doe thereby seuerally distinguish spirits and diuels among themselues vnderstanding by the words of Christ onely those principall spirits which can no otherwaies be expelled but by praier and fasting Orthodoxus And haue all sorts of spirits or but onely those principall diuels an actuall possession in men Exorcistes Vndoubtedly all sorts of diuels haue an actuall possession in men and may by a commaunding power be compelled to depart howbeit those principall spirits whereof Christ more especially entreateth they cannot possibly be expelled but by praier and fasting as an ordinary meanes appointed of God Orthodoxus As in this answerelesse answere you would haue men imagine that a bare ordinary meanes by your ingenious handling thereof is able to effect many extraordinary matters
vnransackt or learned brother vnconferred withall wheresoeuer we came to further vs both in those seuerall points we seuerally held What one iourney was refused or present toyle vnattempted to trie foorth the sound truth of such flying reports as ranne all abroad and all this for the more enabling and the better furnishing of vs to that our former determined skirmish What sundrie and often recourses the one to the other What entercourse of writings What mutuall conferences What hot disputes What arguings What answerings What replies and reioynders or euer we could fitly accord about the seuerall questions propounded betweene vs And which is more to be considered the contention it selfe concerning these matters it became no lesse violent then that betweene Paul and Barnabas about the hauing of Iohn Marke in their companie in so much as we eftsoones departed asunder the one from the other Howbeit that onely wise God who turneth the infirmities of his seruants to the furtherance of his glorie he did so moderate our mindes concerning the action in hande as wee both of vs fully resolued to stande fast to our tacklings and thereupon also by an interchangeable couenant did foorthwith conclude to continue this newly attempted controuersie vntill by the verie sway of truth the one be enforced dare manus to hold foorth the hand and submit to the other And herein also we found euerie hower the fauorable assistance of Gods holy spirit for the timely suggesting of many strange and vnwoonted matters which haue not hetherto beene vsually heard of concerning the question it selfe With these many meditations and seuerall conferences we were wholy taken vp till the verie truth it selfe as we verily beleeue began after many debatings and bickerings to breake foorth like the sunne in his strength Whereupon also we eftsoones began to speake both of vs but one and the selfesame things and which more is being now knit together in one minde and one iudgement concerning these seuerall matters we determined foorthwith to put downe in writing whatsoeuer had deliberately passed betweene vs. Purposing withall to vse the priuate contemplation of these our primarie labours as a prouoking sharpe â—pur to pricke vs eftsoones an ende vnto the timely vndertaking of the like priuate conference in some other matters else of like waightie importance That being by this meanes sequestred quite from all secular cares we might the more freely imploy our whole mindes to such secret meditations as should further the timely discharge of our seuerall duties Perceiuing moreouer by the timely dispatch of this one intricate matter that two conscionable ministers conioyning their studies being both of them industrious bent wholy in hart to search and to find forth wisedome by althings that are done vnder heauen might by such mutuall endeuours verie easily accomplish many profitable workes for themselues and some others Howbeit for the putting ouer of these our priuate labours to the publike veiw of the world that we assure thee was neuer in our thoughts at the first no we did fully resolue to keepe these our conferences from the sight of all others saue onely our selues for these following reasons First we were greatly discouraged from the publication hereof in an onely regard of our proper imperfections for the skilfull determining of such intricate doubts acknowledging our manifold wants to be such so great as we were mightily afraid to put the due trial of our skil vpon termes And for this cause we durst not attempt the tendring of our owne but hourely expected from some others of more maturity a booke better ballanced for the timely encouÌ„tring with such late bred broiles as concerned especially those vnwonted occurrents Secondly our said purpose for publishing this treatise was also eftsoones nipt in the head by often recounting the new-fangled nicenesse of this present age wherein nothing almost is now pleasing to any especially the curious companions but that which being euery way concluded first in scholasticall forme is also very finely florished ouer with a Ciceronian vernish And therefore perceiuing these our labors to come short of such reckoning we verely perswaded our selues that this plaine coine of ours would hardly passe with those cinicall censurers for currant good paiment Thirdly the maturity and ripenesse of many ministers and others among whom we conuerse was not the least stoppage vnto vs. For we are not ignorant that men now a daies being very acute in conceite too too much ready with eagle-like eies to prie exactly into any thing publisht in print are euery way able and apt enough also to censure so sharply as may be the published labours of others how lazy or leaden-heeled soeuer in laying foorth their owne proper talents to the greatest aduantage Fourthly our compassionable care to profit and our exceeding great loathenesse to preiudice the parties them selues or to aggrauate with the waight of one finger the present afflictions of those whom this treatise of ours more especially concernes hath hitherto forestalled our purpose from publishing our present labours Being in very great feare that these our pretious balmes how soueraine soeuer would rather breake their heads then bind vp their bleeding wounds the physicall composition of our oile and our wine it is so vntoothsome a triacle to their distempered humour and vnsauory tast Lastly we haue thus long been held back from making our conferences common to others in an especiall regard of that christian conceit which we haue hitherto had of their christian conformity to a more dexterity together with the needlesnes as we thought in publishing any other new matter concerning this argument Both because authority it selfe had seised vpon them long since and for that also the printed report of the commissioners iudiciall proceedings against them might as we verily thought haue been fully sufficient for many respects to quiet their passionate spirits and to calme the turbulent tempests arising from thence For if the good man of God he hauing a far better cause and calling then these men to persist and hold out in his purpose attempted did notwithstanding very duetifully submit to Amaziah his princely commaund concerning his silencing we verily perswaded our selues that Quâ—ene Elizabeths authenticall commission concerning ecclesiasticall persons and causes in due regard of their dueties to God and her Maiesty might haue enioined them both to lay their hand on their mouth and to put a present end to their further proceedings in a practise especially so directly opposite to her princely prerogatiue so authentically debated and the same so iudicially also determined Loe these in effect were the maine reasons them selues which hetherto with held vs both from profering our labours to the publique veiw of the world If happely it seeme strang vnto any that we should now so suddainely desist from such a determined purpose it may please them to consider afresh that for as much as some malefactours notwithstanding their palpable crimes in a malcontented humour doe
But what three persons are those that come yonder walking this way Philologus If I be not fowlie deceiued it is maister Orthodoxus maister Physiologus and the Exorcist also himselfe who cast out the Diuell they are euen the same This falleth foorth pat for our purpose we haue now verie fitte oportunitie to conferre of these points to the full Lycanthropus Blessed be God for this speciall prouidence and fauour Orthodoxus God blesse you good brethren prosper your iourney Philologus God blesse you also good maister Orthodoxus and the rest of your companie What my old friend Philologus what make you in these quarters and whether wander you so fast with these good companions Philologus Good sir we are euen now I hope at the furthest For our comming into these quarters is vpon speciall occasion to conferre with your selfe and the rest of this companie about the maruelous woonders befallen at Mahgnitton of late concerning a yoong man possessed there Orthodoxus See see the strange nature of man we were coÌ„ferring euen now about the transforming of Diuels Howbeit all the world I feare me will shortly become transformed Athenians For euery man now doth giue himselfe wholie to the hearing or telling of newes Notwithstanding you are all hartely welcome and this I tell you heere by the way that we also our selues are nowe in debating those matters Lycanthropus Good sir then pardon vs we pray you for interrupting your talke and we will walke heere apart by our selues attending your leisure Physiologus Nay not so for neither is the matter it selfe so secret nor we so earnest vpon it but that if it so please maister Orthodoxus and this other companion you may all be iointly pertakers of our mutuall conference and so much the rather because you are come as it seemes for that selfesame purpose Exorcistes I am very well willing if maister Orthodoxus thinks good Orthodoxus With all my hart And seeing it hath pleased our good God to bring vs so fitly togither let vs for more ease to our selues shroude vs heere vnder the shade along this banke where we may haue the benefit of the running streame to recreate our eies and sences and in so solitarie a place verie fitly conferre of our matters without the discouerie of neighbours or any the interruption of trauellers Physiologus Well sir first place your selfe where you please and you shall see vs quickly come clustring about you Orthodoxus Come then let vs sit closely together Howbeit before we begin our conferrence to the ende the same may be euerie way comformable to the will of God and comfortable also vnto our selues Let vs all ioine together in hartie prayers and say O Lord our God the fountaine of life the welspring of grace and the onely infuser of all spirituall knowledge Behold vs here at this present we humbly beseech thee in that acceptable beautie of thy sonne our Sauiour wherein thou so highly delightest and for whose sake thou canst not but be well pleased with euerie of vs. Graunt deare father that as thou hast ordeined him to be the true light which lightneth euerie one that comes into the world so he may gratiously enlighten our harts who do naturally sit here in darkenes and in the shadow of death Remooue from our grosse and sencelesse soules al those palpable cloudes of ignorance errour and vnbeleefe which seeke to foreclose our sauing knowledge in Iesus Christ. Pluck we pray thee from our vncircumcized eies those thicke and foggie seales of naturall corruption which doe at this present so fearfully dimme and dazel our darke vnderstandings as we are vtterly vnable to discerne aright the hole some things of thy holy law And grant we beseech thee yet further that this our entended conferrence concerning the timely discouerie of these hidden mysteries of Satan sinne and iniquitie may directly tende to the glorie of thy great name the good of thy Church the vnfolding of errour the manifestation of truth the confusion of Satan the tryumph of our conquering Christ and the euerlasting saluation of all our soules through Iesus Christ our only Lord and Sauiour Altogether So be it Lord Iesu euen so Amen Orthodoxus Well now in Gods name declare briefly and plainly what you desire to know concerning the possessed man at Mahgnitton Philologus First sir or euer you enter vpon the perticular discourse of the possessed himselfe our desire is to heare whether there be any spirits or Diuels to possesse men at all the rather because there is one in our companie who verie confidently auoucheth that there are neither Angels nor Spirits Physiologus Who is he and what is his name Pneumatomachus I am the man if it please you and my name is Pneumatomachus Physiologus Your name was geuen I suppose to expresse your nature For Pneumatomachus is as much to say as a despiter of spirits or rather it signifieth one who flatly opposeth himselfe to the essentiall spirits and powers of God Howbeit by that time Maister Orthodoxus hath fully confuted your fowle and palpable errours I doubt not but you will both be ashamed of your grosse vnderstanding and desirous to exchange your odious name Pneumatomachus By your patience good sir it argueth in you a contentious nature to stand deskanting thus vpon names which are but bare notions of things when you haue saide what you can Physiologus And good sir by your License if so be your inward nature be the thing it selfe whereof your outward name doth giue vs the notion then out of doubt your verie name how bare a notion soeuer must needes argue in you an erronious minde Pneumatomachus Erre I confesse I may but dwell in an errour I will not If once I be brought to perceiue it Orthodoxus Gods name be blessed for this so good a beginning Goe to then seeing you make it a Question whether there be spirits and Diuels or no it shall not be amisse first to demonstrate plainely vnto you that there be Spirits and Diuels and then next to declare what we haue more especially to consider of them This I take it will be a very plaine course and such also as comprehendeth fully the limits and bounds of our conferrence Physiologus No doubt it comprehendeth fully whatsoeuer may fall foorth concerning our present purpose Exorcistes The order is such as no man dislikes Philologus I thinke euen the same What say you Pâ—eumatomachus Pneumatomachus I dislike not the order But sir howe prooue you there be Spirits and Diuels Orthodoxus I prooue it first from their essential creation and then next from their effectuall operation Pneumatomatichus How first from their essentiall creation Orthodoxus Because they were essentially created of God For the Lord God creating the whole host of heauen created Angels and Spirits among the rest of celestiall creatures to be of principall account in that heauenly hoste Now then Angels and Spirits they being such excellent creatures of God we neede not to doubt of their
essentiall being The rather because euery creature else how contemptible soeuer being once created it hath an essentiall substance and if the basest of all then much more the Angels they being indeed such excellent creatures Pneumatomachus Well goe to how next from their effectuall operations Orthodoxus Thus their operations haue beene and now are apparantly euident to all the world whether we respect the Lord or his church So that for any to doubt of their essentiall being is to call in question the sun-shine at mid-day and as wel may he denie their operations whatsoeuer Pneumatomachus Good sir is this your substantiall proouing of Angels and Spirits I denie that the Lord God euer created any Angels at all and then to what purpose doe you vrge their supposed operations Orthodoxus Sith you so confidently denie both Spirits and Diuels tell me what you imagine those to be which we generally hold for Spirits and Angels Pneumatomachus Sir I take those your supposed spirits for none other matters at all but the good or euill motions and affections arising in men as also those your imagined Angels I hold them to bee nothing else but the sensible signes or tokens of Gods vnspeakeable power Orthodoxus You do then conclude it should seeme that our faith concerning those matters is grounded altogither vpon bare supposals and idle imaginations of wandring braines I like well your plainnes in laying open your minde although I alowe not your pestiferous opinions iumping so pat with the Parepateticall and Sadusaicall sort Who flatly denying either Angel or Spirite do confidently auouch that there is nothing immortall in man which is a verie dangerous gulph of hell that deuoureth and swaloweth vp all sound diuinitie and sincere knowledge of God For first by opposing your selfe against all the essentiall spirits and powers of the Lord what doe you else in effect but implicatiuely reiect the essentiall being of the holy Ghost and then next you do also by consequence verie flatly deny that there is any God at all for what I pray you is God but a Spirite Pneumatomachus Nay sir howsoeuer I oppose my selfe to the catholike opinion of Spirits and Diuels I do confidently auouch and confesse that there is one true euerliuing God of an incomprehensible inuisible and spirituall essence distinguished into the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost And moreouer concerning men and my selfe I do with like confidence verie cleerely acknowledge that euerie of vs also are essentiallie endued with spirituall and immortall soules Orthodoxus You cannot faithfully finally hold these infallible truthes from your hart but you must and will presently banish those other palpable errours from out of your brest For euen as Aaron his rodde deuoured foorthwith the counterfeite rods of all the Egyptian Sorcerers so surely these your confessed truths concerning the essentiall spirits and powers of the Lord being faithfully held from the hart will in the end I doubt not be another Aaronicall rodde to confute and confound those other Sadusaical sorceries wherewith the Diuel hath so dangerously bewitched your soule Lycanthropus Verie true if he be not to opinionate therein Pneumatomachus Sir howsoeuer I haue beene hitherto opinionate in this speciall point I am notwithstanding very loth that reason should be ouerruled by will or that the holy truth of God should giue place vnto errour and therefore proceed I beseech you in the timely vnfolding of this hidden mysterie Orthodoxus With very good will wherein also for your speedier conceiuing of that which is spoken we will first lay open the originall fountaine from whence this errour floteth abroad and then next hauing fully answered your arguments we wil directly prooue vnto you both Spirits and Diuels Exorcistes A very excellent order For there by first you shall cleere our iudgements and then next you shall the more fully confirme vs in the infallible truth Lycanthropus That is certainly so But what thinkes Pneumatomachos Pneumatomachus I acknowledge no lesse and do promise withall to giue an attentiue eare to whatsoeuer is spoken Orthodoxus Well then to proceede therein accordingly this I dare boldly affirme that your Parepatetical opinion or rather that this your Sadusaicall sorcerie concerning the non being of Spirits and Diuels proceedeth directly from a two-folde false ground Namely first from the naturall corruption of your proper minde and secondly from a carelesse misconstruing of some certeine places of Scripture Both which saide false grounds albeit I could and might well relate them my selfe yet because the first is rather Philosophical then Diuine I do purposely put ouer the prosecuting thereof as of al other like points to this my good brother if it please him to trauell therin reseruing the latter to entreate of my selfe Physiologus Sith it is your good pleasure to haue it so I will gladly giue my endeuour to satisfie the man so it seemeth him good Pneumatomachus With all my hart if first you will tell me who you are and what is your name Physiologus I am I assure you a friend to the truth and my name is Physiologos Pneâ—matomachus In very good time be it spoken But may I be bold by the way to aske you a question without offence Physiologus Propound at your pleasure and aske what you please Pneumatomachus Was not your name also purposely giuen to purport vnto vs your proper nature For Physiologus you say is your name which vnlesse I be fowly deceaued is as much to say as a babler or pratler of naturall Philosophie or it signifieth rather some notable discourser of naturall causes I hope you are none of those cogging companions of whom the Apostle doth wish vs beware who goe purposely about to spoile men with Philosophie and vaine deceit Orthodoxus Nothing lesse For the man I assure you is both a sound Philosopher and a sincere Diuine Neither would I haue you once to imagine that Paul doth there purposely oppose himselfe to all true Philosophie whether naturall or morall no but reprooueth rather that false and counterfeit Philosophie which hauing onely an appearance of truth and not the substance of truth it selfe is cunningly foisted in by cogging companions to spoile and deceiue mens mindes of the truth indeed For otherwaies all true Philosophie is the speciall gift of God and a principall helpe to Diuinitie so far foorth especially as she is made a submissiue Moderatour in naturall causes and not a commaunding Mistres ouer Diuinitie Then I assure you shee comes in her naturall kinde and thrice happie is he that hath a true insight into her according to that old accustomed saying Foelix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas The wight that could all causes skan Might count himselfe an happie man Now then such a Philosopher is this and therefore be bold vpon my warrant to harken freely vnto him concerning the first ground of your errour Pneumatomachus I credit your words let him therefore proceede in his purpose Physiologus
a blush that God and spirits haue visible formes and corporall substances And thereupon you doe rashlie conclude that spirites and Diuels must necessarily be euen such as your selfe by those places suppose or none at all But now because you your owne selfe with your corporall eies did yet neuer behold any such corporall Diuels as you by those Scriptures haue grossely imagined therefore you doe flatly resolue with your selfe that there are neither spirits nor Diuels at all Pneumatomachus Why what other thing else should those corporall formes attributed to spirits Diuels in the sacred scriptures import but either that Diuels and spirits are visible substances if those scriptures say true or that there are at the least neither spirits nor Diuels at all as I haue hitherto held Orthodoxus That the scriptures say true being truely vnderstoode no true harted Christians may dare to denie That there are also both spirits and Diuels though in truth and in substance they haue no such visible formes as those places of Scripture do literally import shall be prooued anone In the meane time this I must tell you for truth that those scriptures which attribute to God and spirites a corporall forme as eies eares hands feete bodies wings such like may at no hand be expounded literally but must rather be metaphorically and spiritually vnderstoode of vs. So that by any those corporall formes we may not grossely conceiue in God or in spirites such corporall members appertaining especially to their essentiall being but we must spiritually vnderstand â—hereby those their supernatural vertues operations and actions which by such corporall formes are metaphorically commended to our humane capacities And without doubt such a carnall misconstruing of scriptures was the onely maine cause which made the silly old monkes in elder times to fall fearefully into the palpable errour of the Anthropomorphites who by vnderstanding such scriptures literally did groslie attribute to God such humane actions and passions as are proper to men The holie scriptures then I perceiue they may not be interpreted hand ouer head neither are they in euery place to be opened literally Orthodoxus Nothing lesse for so should you fall into a thousand absurdities And therefore vnlesse you will purposely shew your selfe a swinish Saducee or impudently make your selfe knowne a monkish Anthropomorphite be now ashamed I beseech you of this palpable grossenes and hold confidently with the catholike church that there are essentiall spirites and Diuels Philologus Pneumatomachus howe goeth the matter Pneumatomachus That which hath beene hetherto spoken doth sufficiently set foorth a twofold ground of erronious opinions Howbeit this my opinion concerning the non being of Angels or spirits appeares not for any thing heard as yet to be erronious at all And I yet verely thinke as before that Diuels are none other thing else but those good or euill motions in men which doe maruellously comfort or afflict their minds Orthodoxus Thinke you so as you say Goe to then tell me I pray you what was the Serpent that tempted our grandmother Euah in Paradice Was that any good or euill motion in Euah If so then tel me further whether you thinke that motion was within or without her If within her how came the temptation then from the Serpent and from without her altogether But if it came from without her how should then the temptation be iustly accompted any motion of hers sith the same cannot truely be said to arise from within her Againe if you take Diuels to be but the good or euill motions in men what thinke you that tempter was who tempted Christ in the wildernes Was it thinke you any motion in Christ If yea then whether was it an euill or a good motion An euill motion you may not auouch it to be because Christ being free from all sinne could not possibly haue in him any euill motion at all As also it were verie absurd to affirme it a good motion for how could that motion be good which tempted Christ vnto euill Moreouer if you take Diuels for the good or euill motions in men what thinke you then that Legion was wherewith the two men were possessed Could the motions of men craue leaue and enter into a whole heardship of Swine And what became of those motions when they were cast foorth by our Sauiour Christ Were they drowned together with the Swine in the Sea If so what then became of the men themselues from whom as you dreame those motions arose Were they dead all the while their mindes were bereft of their motions For the minde you know is in perpetuall motion Or if those men all the while and euer after their motions were cast foorth and drownd in the Sea remained still in their liuely estate it should seeme that Spirits and Diuels are some other essentiall powers then the bare motions and affections arising in men Briefly if Diuels be nothing else but the good or euil motions in men what thinke you those tormentours to be which vexe and torment men in Hell with the Diuell and his Angels Yea and doe tell me I pray you what goeth to Hell the good or euill motions If only the euill what then must become of those other which were good in the man For sith none in this life can possibly be either so good or so euill but that they haue in them both good and euill motions it cannot otherwaies be but that either the good and euill motions in men must after this life be monstrously confounded together or else if the good motions goe roundly to Heauen and the euill vnto hell then the bodie and soule must be diuided part vnto heauen and part vnto hell like an indiuiduum vagum or some litle new nothing that hangs in the ayre To be short if man with his good and euill motions together goeth foorthwith either wholy to heauen or wholy to hell how then should his ioyes or his torments be either absolute or endlesse Because looke how fast his good motions doe minister comfort vnto him so fast at the least his euill motions will afflict and torment him Phylologus Surely Pneumatomachus this opinion I see is so absurd and so sottish as euen a sucking babe would blush to be taynted therewith Lycanthropus A sucking babe blush yea it is such a stale ridiculous iest as might make euen a mad man to hide his head in a corner Pneumatomachus Verie true and I also my selfe am now ashamed thereof Notwithstanding how soeuer it is certaine that spirits and Diuels be more then the good or euill motions in men it appeares yet for any thing heard that those your supposed Angels are nothing at all but the sensible tokens or signes of Gods power Orthodoxus What meane you by the sensible tokens or signes of Gods power Pneumatomachus I vnderstand thereby those extraordinarie iudgements of God which demonstrate vnto vs the incomprehensible maiestie and might of his power
Such I meane as was the destruction of Sodome and Gomorrha the extraordinarie speech of Baalams Asse the wonderfull ouerthrow of the Assyrian host and such other besides Orthodoxus Your error concerning this point vndoubtedly consisteth herein namely in confounding the cause of those iudgements with the effect it selfe For howsoeuer those the aforenamed iudgements may truely be said to be the sensible signes and effects of the extraordinarie power of God yet can you at no hand denie but that the Lord also himselfe effected those extraordinarie iudgements by some extraordinarie wonderful meanes namely by the appointed ministerie and execution of his heauenly Angels As for example howsoeuer the extraordinarie ouerthrowe of Sodome and Gomorrha was a sensible signe and effect of the extraordinarie power of God verie certaine it is that the two Angels sent foorth from the Lord for the execution of that power they were also the instrumentall meanes that effected the same Againe howsoeuer the fall and of speech Balaam his asse was some extraordinary effect signe of Gods power yet was it the Angell with his sword drawen in his hand who extraordinarily accomplisht the same Brieflie howsoeuer that fearefull massacre so miraculouslie made vpon the hundred eightie and fiue thousand of Saneheribs armie was an extraordinarie and sensible signe of Gods woonderfull power yet was it the Angel of the Lord who extraordinarilie effected the same that selfesame night By all which you see it verie apparant that whatsoeuer your selfe surmize to the contrarie the scriptures they set foorth vnto vs essentiall Angels or spirits as the extraordinarie executioners of those sensible signes or tokens of the extraordinarie power of God Pneumatomachus Surely good sir I should soone be perswaded to that which you speake were I not mightily withheld by an vnanswerable argument Orthodoxus What argument I praie you is that Pneumatomachus This namely for that Moses in the historie of the creation entreating compendiouslie of all those workes of God which in sixe daies before the Saboth were perfectly finished maketh no mention at all of the creation of Angels spirits or Diuels Whereupon it foloweth that if any such be they must needes be vncreate and eternall or created at least before or after the worldes creation Orthodoxus Thus you reason There is in the historie of Moses no expresse mention of the creation of Angels therefore if any such be they are either vncreate or not created within the sixe daies Pneumatomachus So I reason indeed Orthodoxus Then I must tell you your argument is faultie and halteth downe right neither hath it any such certeine consequence as you seeme to set downe else how say you to this that I make There is in the hystorie of Moses no expresse mention of the creation of Lyons or Beares therefore if any such be they are either vncreate or not created within the sixe daies Pneumatomachus That foloweth not For howsoeuer Lyons or Beares be not expresly mentioned there yet is their creation implicatiuely contained within that sixe daies worke wherein God created the earth and all the creatures therein Orthodoxus Verie true And thus you your selfe at vnawares haue answered this your vnreasonable argument For howsoeuer Angels and spirites are not expresly mentioned in Moses his historie yet is their creation implicatiuely comprehended in that second daies worke wherein God created the heauenly firmament with all the whole host aboue the same among whom the Angels and spirits haue speciall preheminence Pneumatomachus You say some thing vnto it Orthodoxus Something say you such a something I assure you as is able to batter your vnanswerable argument to nothing Howbeit for further answere this I do confidently oppose to that which you falslie inferre namely that Angels and spirits are neither eternall nor vncreate but such essentiall powers of God as had their first beginning and being by the worke of creation Neither were they formed or made before the first created matter of this visible world neither yet after the accomplished workes of this visible world Yea and thus much I do further affirme that they were not created before but iointly togither with that celestiall firmament which wee commonly call the heauen of the blessed Pneumatomachus How prooue you them creatures created by God Orthodoxus This may plainly be prooued from most infallible and apparant places of Scripture especially that in the Psalmes where Dauid inuiting and sommoning all sorts of people to sing praises to God saith also of the Angels praise ye him al yee his Angels praise yee him all yee his power And therewithall he giueth this reason saying for He spake the word and they were made he commanded and they were created And hereunto also accordeth that which the Apostle speaketh saying by him were all things created which are in heauen and in earth things visible and inuisible whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers all things were created by him and for him By all which it is cleere that the very Angels are creatures and created also by God Exorcistes Yea but when or in what day created he them Orthodoxus This I confesse is a more difficult question then that it may well be answered by any expres words set down in the sacred scriptures although yet by the Scriptures themselues by probable reasons and by the authoritie also of auncient Fathers some certeintie may be determined concerning this point Pneumatomachus How first by the Scriptures themselues Orthodoxus The Scriptures declare that they were vndoubtedly created all within the sixe daies as to alleage one or two out of many First Dauid he saith By the word of the Lord were the heauens made and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth Againe the Angel in the Reuelation sweareth by the Lord Who created the heauen and the things that are therein and the earth and the things that are therein and the sea and the things that are therein In both which places you see howe the holie Ghost speaking of the creation of all things doth first set downe the continents themselues namely the heauens the earth and the sea and then next the things contained in them Shewing by this selfesame order that the heauens the earth and the sea were first created themselues and then the creatures conteined in them But the heauens the earth and the sea were all of them created within the sixe daies and therefore also the hoste of heauen and all the creatures in the earth and the sea were euerie of them created within the sixe daies For Moses saith flatly that euen in those sixe daies all the workes of the Lord were fully finished and that God ceased the seauenth daie from all his labours Thus then you see it plainly demonstrated by sundry places of Scripture that the Angels also were all created within the workes of those sixe daies creation Pneumatomachus Well and howe prooue
you the same by probable reasons Orthodoxus I proue it thus 1. The Angels they are either created or vncreated but not vncreated therefore created They cannot possiblie be vncreated substances for then they should also be infinite Howbeit Angels they are finite creatures for their actions are finite yea and then also their power it is finite But if they be of a finite power then also of a circumscriptible essence Moreouer it shall plainely appeere anon in place conuenient that Angels are finite creatures and definitiuely also in some certeine place which thing can not possible accord to any vncreated essence at all And therefore Angels they are not vncreated substances 2 Secondly I prooue it thus If Angels be vncreated then are they eternall but not eternall therefore not vncreated That they are not eternall it is verie apparant For then should they be such as haue neither beginning nor end of their essence as also their essence or nature it selfe should then be such as hath nothing in it either first or last But this agreeth onely to God himselfe and not to any creature in heauen or in earth And therefore if there be Angels then were they created and if created then created no doubt within the sixe daies as was shewed before And thus much for the proofe of this point by probable reasons Pneumatomachus Well Let vs heare next the testimonie of fathers concerning this Question Orthodoxus Withall my hart Wherein also for breuities sake I will onely but rehearse their names and referre you to the consideration of their seuerall treatises The authors be these Methodius Epiphanius Athanasius Augustine Eucherius Theodoretus and Damascenus All these doe verie confidenly auouch vpon speciall occasions and against the Manicheis the Priscillianists and other such heretikes that the Angels whatsoeuer were the vndoubted workmanship of God howsoeuer their creation is not apparantly layd forth in the sacred Scriptures Yea The Councels of Laterane and Bracha both do ioyntly determine that the Angels are created of God and are not eternall in so much as if any shall hold the contrarie they conclude him accursed of God Thus then you see it apparantly euident by Scripture by reasons and the testimonies also of sundrie fathers that Angels and spirits being finite creatures of God were vndoubtedly created within the sixe daies Pneumatomachus But in what day of those sixe were they created Orthodoxus Touching the verie day it selfe there is some difference in iudgement among the Diuines some hold they were created the first day and some the second But whether of both is not certainely concluded although it may probably be gathered they were in verie deed created the secondday thus That they were created before the third day may plainely be proued by the words of the Lord vnto Iob saying Where wert thou when I layd the foundations of the earth Declare if thou hast vnderstanding Who hath layd the measures thereof if thou knowest Or who hath stretched the line ouer it Where upon are the foundations thereof set Or who laide the corner stone thereof When the starres of the morning praised me and all the sonnes of God reioyced The Lord in that place by the sonnes of God vnderstandeth the Angels and spirits affirming moreouer that euen they also did celebrate his name with praise so soone as he had layd the earthes foundation Now the earth Moses saith was made the third day and therefore if the Angels on that day sang prayses to God it followeth necessarily they were then created before for how should they sing prayses before their creation But it is vnlikely they were the first day created because nothing on that day was created saith Moses but the confused Chaos from whence the rest of the creatures were orderly formed and that primarie light which separated the night from the day If followeth therefore that they were all created the second day together with that celestiall firmament vnder whose name is also contayned that supreme heauen which is called the third heauen paradice or the heauen of the blessed And this thing also is yet more plainely expressed by the words of our Sauiour Christ who saith that the kingdome of heauen was prepared for the elect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the worlds foundation that is after the Lord vpon the very first day had created the Chaos aforesaid then by and by from out of that Chaos was brought the firmament as Moses affirmeth which the Lord God prepared for all the elect By all this it is euident that Angels and Spirits they are essential creatures of God created also within the six daies and so by consequence your vnanswerable argument is answered you see to the full Pneumatomachus I acknowledge no lesse But sir hauing layd downe the mayne grounds of my errour and answered directly my arguments it remaineth by promise that now likewise you produce your owne reasons to prooue plainely vnto me both spirits and Diuels Orthodoxus Verie true And therefore hauing first remooued the olde rubbish which ouerturned the rule of your reason it commeth now verie fitly in place to shew further vnto you that the Angels of God whether good or euill are truely essentiall and substantiall spirits as may plainely appeere by these following reasons first from their sundry names attributed vnto them thus 1 Names they are the signes and notions of things Which names when they signifie any thing properly subsisting of it selfe then that thing also it selfe is a substance no doubt But the Angels they are set forth by sundry names which do signifie substances For first they be called Angels that is to say messengers but a messenger or a minister appointed cannot but be a subsistance Also they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is intellectuall powers but that which hath vnderstanding and knowledge is vndoubtedly a substance Briefly they be called Satan that is an aduersarie also Diuels that is accusors also strong armed men also the God of this world the princes and powers of the ayre the gouernours of this world murderers roring lions the dragon the old serpent so forth All which seueral names do vndoubtedly signifie a thing subsisting wherein is a power from whence proceedeth an action and therefore there are essentiall spirits and Diuels 2 Againe if spirits and Diuels were onely but the secret motions and affections of men then vndoubtedly so many famous actions as the Scriptures record and the same also externally to the outward senses could in no wise accord vnto them but the consequent is false for the Scriptures apparantly and without any trope doe celebrate their office and record their sundrie actions namely that they stand before God serue him execute his precepts and iudgements that they doe daily assault tempt torment circumuent and seeke to deuoure vs and so foorth But how should these or any one of these
it from my verie hart Physiologus I am right glad to heare so good a beginning Exorcistes And euen so am I I assure you Orthodoxus Gods name be blessed for this speciall grace Lycanthropus So be it But sir as there will be tyde after tyde all the while the Seas themselues doe ebbe and flowe so surely so long as men haue in them their boyling affections so long no doubt the dispatch of one controuersie will be but the beginning of another as we see here by present experience For at our very first meeting my friend Phylologus affirmed flatly that howsoeuer there be granted essential spirits and Diuels their possession in these daies of the Gospell is denied of some and doubted of manie Philologus I said so in deed Orthodoxus This fals foorth verie fit for the next mayne point Namely what we haue to consider concerning spirits and Diuels Howbeit because it may be you grow faint by reason of trauell Let vs here breake off after we haue refreshed our bodies make speedie recourse to this present place and so enter a fresh on the matter Physiologus Sir we doe willingly attend your good pleasure if it pleaseth the rest of our companie Lycanthropus It pleaseth vs woonderous well For the motion I assure you is such as I would haue made mine owne selfe but for giuing offence Orthodoxus Let vs then arise and depart The end of the first Dialogue The second Dialogue THE ARGVMENT The power of Spirits and Diuels their possession what it is and whether the Diuell doth essentially enter into the possessed mans minde or not The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Philologus GOod Sirs We three haue long expected your comming howbeit you are hartely welcome Lycanthropus Phylologus I perceiue is wholy vpon the matter Pneumatomachus Pardon the man he is pained you see like to a trauelling woman that wanteth onely a midwife Physiologus What is the opinion I pray you that troubleth his patience Lycanthropus This Sir He saith that howsoeuer there be granted essentiall spirits and Diuels yet their possession in these daies of the Gospell is denied of some and doubted of many Philologus I said so in deed And although I dare not flatly denie yet I also doe much doubt it my selfe Physiologus Your name I perceiue is Philologus which in signification is as much to say as a man that delighteth or loueth to talke You propound not this opinion of purpose I hope to declare vnto vs that you haue a name giuen you very fitly resembling your nature namely that you are but a talkatiue person or one that taketh great pleasure to heare himselfe speake in these points Philologus No truely I propound the same in simplicitie of hart shewing you plainely what my selfe suppose and desiring resolution wherein I do doubt Physiologus Wherefore doubt you that Diuels haue possession in men Philologus Because I suppose it impossible in nature and incredible also in all sound Diuinitie Lycanthropus What Philologus Is it supernaturall for the Diuell to possesse a man Doe not the scriptures in euerie place speake plainely of the possessed with Diuels of the entring of Diuels into men of casting them foorth of the Diuell that entred into the hart of Iudas of the Diuell that filled Ananiah his hart with a lye and a thousand such places All which so apparantly and so plainely approoueth this point that for any to doubt thereof were but to call into question the sunshine at mid-day Philologus I neither hold in supernaturall for the Diuell in some sort to possesse a man neither doubt I of that truth which those Scriptures import I onely suppose that the matter it selfe is not so grossely to be vnderstood as some from those places would seeme to conclude wherein I do freely submit to maister Orthodoxus his censure And therefore obiect what you can for your selfe and let him resolue vs both in the point Lycanthropus Content if it please him to take the paines Orthodoxus With verie good will and so much the rather because it falleth foorth fit for our next generall purpose namely what we haue especially to consider in spirits and Diuels Lycanthropus What haue we especially to consider in them Orthodoxus Hauing prooued directly that there be Spirits and Diuels we haue now next to consider in them two principall things The first concerneth their power ouer men the second respecteth the timely subduing of that selfe same power Lycanthropus What meane you by their power ouer men Orthodoxus I vnderstand thereby that Dominion or rule which the verie Diuels themselues by the iust iudgement of God doe in all outrage euen exercise ouer the naturall ofspring of Adam and which is vndoubtedly most woonderfull respecting both body and soule Howbeit this their appointed power is determinate finite and limited certainely within it owne speciall bounds albeit the Diuell in an especiall regard thereof be called the prince of this world the God of this world the prince of airie powers and that strong armed man which keepeth his house in peace till some stronger inuade him And this their saide power is twofold Namely either their power of possession or their power of obsession Lycanthropus What is your opinion I pray you concerning the possession of Diuels in these daies of the Gospell Orthodoxus My opinion therein shall be shewed at large after your selfe haue first opened vnto me what you doe meane by the Diuell his possession in man Lycanthropus By the Diuell his possession in man I vnderstand his essentiall and violent entring into him as men by force and armes doe enter an house and so inherently possesseth and peaceably enioyeth that selfe same person as his proper possession and peculiar dominion appointed vnto him of God For possession you know it importeth a peaceable dominion Orthodoxus That possession importeth a peaceable dominion we do neuer denie But where prooue you such an essentiall possession as your selfe speaketh of in all the Scriptures Nay where finde you these wordes possession or possessed peculiarly appropriated to the Diuell ouer men throughout the whole Bible in the old or new testament Lycanthropus Where finde I the words possession or possessed appropriate to Diuels throughout the whole Bible Surely wheresoeuer the Euangelist Mathew doth handle those matters there he vsually and purposely puts downe those selfe same wordes As for example he saith they brought many to Christ that were possessed with Diuels Againe he healed many that were possessed with Diuels Againe there met him two possessed with Diuels Againe they told the people what was become of the possessed with Diuels Againe they brought vnto him a dumbe man possest with a Diuell Yea and in euerie place else where like occasion is offred he vseth like speach which argueth euidently that the Diuell hath an essentiall possession in men Orthodoxus Arguing as you doe from a deceiueable
then the father and the sonne both do really and essentially inhabite in the harts of so many as obserue the word which how absurd it is to auouch your selfe may consider Besides that if you so strictly doe tye your selfe to the obseruation of words how vnderstand you this scripture The good Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an euil Spirit of the Lord came vpon him Would you haue vs to imagine fromhence that king Saul himselfe was really possest with an euill spirit or a diuel Lycanthropus Yea what other thing else Orthodoxus Then may we by the same reason conclude that Saul also before that time was really possest with the good spirit of God For when Samuel annointed him king it was said in like sort that the spirit of the Lord should come vpon him Againe that the spirit of the Lord it came vpon Saul Yea then may we likewise conclude that Dauid also himselfe he was really possest with the good spirit of God for it is said that after Dauid was annointed the spirit of the Lord came vpon him Now then tell me I pray you whether you thinke that Saul and Dauid were really possest with the good spirit of God and that the spirit did essentially enter into them Lycanthropus I vnderstand it euen so I assure you Orthodoxus Why man besides the absurditie arising thence the verie letter it selfe importeth a quite contrarie sence to that which you seeme to insert For the wordes of the text are not thus the spirit of the Lord entred into them but the spirit of the Lord came vpon them both Howbeit whether it had beene the spirit of the Lord entred into them or came vpon them it is al one in effect and may in no wise be vnderstood of anie essential possession but of an effectual operation of that spirit of God whether good or euil For in euerie of those places the word in the original is tsalac Which Ierome translates leaped vpon them Lyra he hath entred forciblie vpon them Pagnine he hath rested vpon them Tremellius he hath rushing vpon them Montanus he hath prospered vpon them None of al these howsoeuer they differ in termes they dreame not you see of anie real possession at al. Yea and the word tsalac also it selfe if we respect the natiue signification is properlie to be translated thus The spirit of the Lord preuailed had prosperous successe did happelie proceede or prospered greatlie in Saul and in Dauid al which hath relation to the efficacie and not to the essence of the spirit at all Otherwise if notwithstanding al this your selfe wil needes vnderstand in that place an essential entrance or real possession the grosse absurditie thereof may more plainlie appeare by the conference of this one with some other places of scripture where the selfesame word is also in vse As first where Eleazar saith vnto Laban hinder you me not sith the Lord bath prospered my iourney Would you expound it thus hinder me not sith the Lord hath caused my iorney verie really and essentially to enter into me Againe where it is said that whatsoeuer the godlie man doth it shall prosper Should we translate it thus the godly mens waies shal substantiallie enter into him Againe where the holie ghost saith vnto Salomon prosper thou with thy glorie Should we expound it thus let thy glorie substantiallie and reallie possesse thy person Briefly where Ieremie complaineth thus why doe the waies of the wicked prosper must we imagine that the waies of the wicked doe enter essentiallie into their bodies and soules that were to to absurd And yet in such a strict tying of our selues to the word we may by as good reason enterprete these places thus as those other of Saul and of Dauid the holie ghost vsing especially in euery of them al but one and the selfesame word Exorcistes If the scriptures be so intricate concerning these pointes what waies were we best to take for the vnderstanding of them aright Orthodoxus You must not be haled hedlong an end with an inueterate opinion receiued hand ouer head from hand to hand without further search or due trial of the trueth of the matter but must verie hartelie pray and most conscionablie depend vpon the holie spirit of God for a true vnderstanding and wisedome herein For seeing the proper nature of spirites and diuels is not in the sacred scriptures so exactly so plainely set downe as that thereby we may certeinly know them euen as they are in their proper and essential being we must therefore most humbly endeuour our selues very faithfully to imbrace and constantlie to beleeue the true sence of the scriptures concerning these points yea euen in such simple sort as the holy spirit of God who is the Lord of all spirites hath set downe the same Alwaies remembring this that spirites and diuels they are in the scriptures euermore spoken of as of spiritual substances howsoeuer for the onelie helpe of our slender capacities they be sometimes more groslie expressed by parables and metaphors and in a more sensible or corporal manner then otherwaies they are in themselues And therefore whereas it is said that the spirit of the Lord came vpon Balaam Othoniel Gedeon Iphthah Sampson Saul Dauid Azariah Ezechiel and others Moreouer where it is said that the Lord seperated the spirite of Moses and put in vpon the seuentie Elders againe that the spirit of Eliah was double vpon Elisha that Caleb had a spirit farre differing from the rest of the Israelites and that Daniel he had a more excellent spirite then al the rest yet that selfesame entrance into that resting vpon that multiplying that doubling and that excellencie of the spirit is not to be vnderstood of any real or essential possession but of an effectual and powerful operation of that selfesame spirit concerning the speciall worke for which it was sent So as although the spirites of the Lord whether good or euil are said to be giuen by proportion and nomber yet not the substance or quantitie but the condicion or qualitie of the spirit it selfe must be alwaies presupposed and ment thereby which is a point that I would haue you especially to consider throughout our whole conference concerning spirites and diuels Lycanthropus This I confesse is a verie good caution concerning the condition qualitie and operation of spirits Howbeit for any thing hetherto heard I can at no hand be perswaded but that the diuell albeit mans minde be free doth really and essentiallie enter into the possessed mans bodie Physiologus Goe to imagine that this your supposall were euerie waie sound and then do tell me withall what the diuell doth in the possessed mans bodie Lycanthropus What doth he there verie vntowardly I warrant you for euen in that selfesame bodie and by the helpe of that body he doth effectually accomplish and execute those
Philosophers the aire is rather passiue then actiue because his proper qualitie is thought to be liquide Howbeit heate and cold are said to be actiue but drinesse and humiditie passiue qualities Moreuer it hath beene prooued by manifest and daily experiments that the aire is both passible and corruptible and may easily be corrupted and changed And therefore if the Diuels haue airie bodies they are subiect to corruption and dissolution and so by consequence the Diuels they should be indued with mortal bodies as was affirmed before Lycanthropus But manie for all this doe flatly auouch that the Diuels haue either fierie or aierie or waterie or earthlie bodies yea such bodies as can feele and be felte both hurt and be hurt in so much as they lament when they are stricken and being put to the fier are burnt And that they themselues continually burne in such sort as they leaue ashes behinde them as hath beene manifestly prooued in the borders of Italie Physiologus If you lend you eares to the opinion of the Platonists or but listen a while to the dotages of dreaming Psellus they will fill your head full of these and such other Italian tales wherein it were more ease for a man to beleeue them then to run into the borders of Italie to reprooue them of falsehood Howbeit if Diuels in deede should haue elementarie bodies they could not be eternal For the elements they haue in them both heate and cold drinesse and moisture yea such actiue and passiue qualities both as by contending together continually must needes in the end be vtterly dissolued And therefore these toyes which the Platonistes and Psellus doe tattle abroad are matters that cleaue together like thombe-roppes of sand hauing in them no soundnes of truth Besides that their Philosophie herein is very improbable for if the Diuel be earthie he must needes be palpable if he be palpable he must needes kill the man into whom he really entreth Also if he be of earth created then must he be visible and vntransformable concerning that point for Gods creation cannot be annihilated by any deuise of the creature So as although it were graunted that the Diuels might adde to their being either matter or forme yet very certaine it is they cannot possibly diminish or alter the substance whereof they consist As not to be spiritual or to relinquish and leaue earth water fire aire or this or that element whereof they were first created and made But howsoeuer they imagine of water of aire or of fire very certaine I am that the earth must alwaies be visible and palpable yea and the aire must be alwaies inuisible and fire must be hote and water must be moist And of these three latter bodies especially of water and aire no shape nor forme can naturally be exhibited to mortall mens eies by any possible meanes of the creature Lycanthropus Well yet for any thing heard I can hardly be perswaded but that Diuels haue their proper and peculiar bodies Orthodoxus I haue forborne a long time to speake in hope that Physiologus and your selfe would haue growen to some issue concerning this point But sith you persist in your fond opinion doe tell me what it is that makes you imagine the Diuels to haue also their bodies Lycanthropus This especially perswades me vnto it I finde in the scriptures fower sortes of spirites Namely first a diuine spirit which only is God who although he be a spirit yet hath he no need of a bodie touching either his being or his working The second are Angelical spirites namely Angels and Diuels who albeit they neede no bodies at all in respect either of their being or of their proper actions yet neede they their bodies in communicating their actions vnto vs. The third are humane spirites who in regard of their essential being doe neede no bodies for they really exist and liue being disioined asunder from their bodies Although yet concerning their organical actions appertaining especiallie to the vegetatiue sensitiue life they at no hand may want their proper bodies The fourth and last sort are brutish spirites which neither can be nor do any thing at al without their bodies By al which it is cleare that of these foure sorts of spirits the diuine spirit alone the omnipotent God I meane he needeth no bodie al the rest they haue al neede of and doe also enioy their owne bodies for the vse of themselues and of others and this either to helpe or to hurt And for these selfesame respects the very diuels also themselues do stand in neede of their bodies Orthodoxus By this your distribution of spirites it doth plainlie appeare that spirites and diuels they neede no bodies at al touching either their beeing or working For first they haue their essentiall beeing without anie body in as much as they are spiritual substances and then next they neede also no bodies concerning their proper actions for they loue they hate they affect they doe wil and vnderstand without anie helpe of bodies at al. Lycanthropus I speake not now of their proper but of their ministeriall actions which they cannot possiblie accomplish without their peculiar bodies Orthodoxus And I vnderstand it also of their ministerial actions which they may and do eftsoones accomplish by assumed bodies without any their peculiar bodies at all And heerin also I speake onely of good Angels but goe to proceede in framing your argument Lycanthropus I frame it thus Ministers they cannot possiblie accomplish their appointed ministerie to those that liue in the bodie without hauing a bodie But the Angels are all ministring spirits for such saued ones as liue in the bodie therefore they cannot possibly accomplish their ministerie to them without hauing a body Orthodoxus I vnframe it thus The truth of your proposition is onely particular hauing speciall relation to some certeine kind of ministerie and therefore it doth not nor cannot so generally conclude as you would haue it to doe Because Angels or spirits they may and do eftsoones vndergoe some certeine offices without any assistance of an externall bodie yea euen all their offices whatsoeuer they might and could wel vndertake without any bodie at all if it so seemed good to the Lord. Howbeit some other offices againe they doe execute in bodies not because there is otherwaies in themselues a defect for that work but for their sakes onely to whom they are sent Neither is it of any necessitie that the Angels for some speciall respects should alwaies consist vpon and haue peculiarly vnto them their owne proper bodies because for such speciall respects they may and haue eftsoones assumed to themselues some other bodies from else where Howbeit what need of assuming of bodies at all if Angels and spirits be alwaies endued with their proper and peculiar bodies No surely then to assume where no assuming of bodies in deed but rather a stretching out a rending and dissoluing of substances
therefore they are euerie of them called Angels as it were by a Christian name Culmannus he saith that Angels are not corporall but spiritual substances because they be spirits For a spirit is not a substance consicting of elements or hauing flesh and bones in which onely respect the Scriptures do call them ministring spirits Briefly Bernard he saith the verie wals are vnable to withstand the Angelicall spirits but that all bodies how solide or palpable soeuer they are vnto them verie penetrable Loe heere we haue summoned a grand-Iurie of ancient Fathers who haue all with one generall consent giuen vp their verdit concerning the non being of corporall spirites and diuels Go to therefore Lycanthropus what say you them Lycanthropus I saie they are all good men and true Orthodoxus Waell then I hope you will yeeld this question namely that spirites and diuels they haue not materiall bodies peculiar to their essentiall being but are altogither simple and incorporall substances and that therefore their essentiall being in men if the same should be granted can neuer be perceiued by corporall sense and so by consequence no corporall possession at all Lycanthropus I yeeld no such matter vnto you Orthodoxus Why man it was the determination of that grand-Iurie of Fathers whom you acknowledge for good men and true Whereupon their verdit was foorthwith authentically recorded and may not now by any orderly course be reuersed Lycanthropus It may be they were to inconsiderate and rash in giuing their verdite and therefore let vs heare your Laterane Councell concerning this matter in question Orthodoxus What man must the credit of a grand-Iurie of Catholike Fathers be made to depend vpon the approbation of a generall Councell Well then the Laterane Councell doth flatly confirme that Angels or spirits they are incorporall created of God and were not eternall before al beginnings but created onely in time By all the premisses then you may plainly perceiue by swaie of argument by plaine euidence of Scripture by authoritie of Fathers yea and by the whole consent of a generall Councell that spirits and diuels are incorporall substances and that therefore if diuels doe essentially enter into the bodies of men as your selfe do fondly imagine they enter not so by any bodies of their owne because they haue no bodies at all Lycanthropus Whether diuels haue bodies or no bodies it makes no great matter verie certaine I am they haue a reall possession in men and I prooue it thus Spirites and diuels they can essentially assume to themselues true naturall bodies therefore they can essentially enter into the possessed mans bodie Orthodoxus Are you fledde on the sodaine from the diuell his reall possessing of bodies to his essentiall assuming of bodies Can you find no fast footing to setle your selfe vpon that you thus plodde hether and thither from point to point as a man fearefully distracted or suddenly fallen in a maze Lycanthropus Yes sir I haue fast footing I warrant you for whatsoeuer I hold although yet now I rather desire to heare what you are able to say concerning the diuell his essentiall assuming of true naturall bodies Orthodoxus Well then I perceiue your store is not great being thus constrained to spend on the stocke Howbeit because this matter wil craue a longer discourse then the present time will affoord let vs therefore goe take our naturall rest and meet here againe betimes in the morning to discourse this point to the full Physiologus Your motion is good for vs all Philologus Very true as you say And therefore we three wil repaire to our Innes to take our rest and meete you God willing to morrow by six of the clocke Orthodoxus Wel then let vs forthwith arise and depart The end of the third Dialogue The fourth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT Whether Spirits and Diuels can assume to themselues true naturall bodies What bodies they are said to assume and how those Scriptures are to be vnderstood which be for this purpose produced The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Philologus LYcanthropus I haue this night in my sleepe beene so strangely troubled about thy last argument as if thou take heed to thy selfe I verily beleeue thou wilt giue them the foile Lycanthropus I am so perswaded my selfe howbeit if I be conquered therein I haue another in store that will trouble them more then that by a thousand fold Pneumatomachus Make much of your arguments against the intended skirmish and all little enough for you are to encounter with sharpe sighted aduersaries Lycanthropus Be as sharpe as they will they shall be sure to receiue as hot as they bring But behold where they come Orthodoxus What sirs God giue you good morrow You haue preuented our purpose which was to haue perused an author or twaine before your comming Howbeit sith you are all so readie Goe to Lycanthropus propound your argument to vs. Lycanthropus I propound it thus Spirits and Diuels they can essentially assume to themselues true naturall bodies therefore they can essentially enter into the possessed mans bodie Physiologus We haue hetherto denied and your selfe was vnable to prooue any reall or substantiall possession at all and would you now thus cunningly insinuate some essentiall entrance of diuels vnder the pretence of assumed bodies Which assuming of bodies if it should be denied would perhaps be as hard to prooue as any the points before Philologus What sir would you beare vs in hand it were hard to prooue that the diuell can assume to himselfe a bodie That was neuer yet doubted of any and dare your selfe vndertake to denie the same Physiologus I vndertake no absolute deniall thereof but onely do here make it a Question Howbeit sith your selues are so resolute concerning this point doe tell me what bodie the diuell doth assume to himselfe Whether a true naturall or phantasticall bodie Pneumatomachus Surely a true natural bodie or none at all Physiologus If a true naturall bodie then tell me further whether it be a bodie created before or to be newly created Lycanthropus It is a bodie created before Physiologus If you hold it a bodie created before then tell me yet further whether you take it to be a liuing or dead mans bodie Exorcistes I take it to be some liuing mans bodie if any at all else how should it possibly serue the diuels purpose Physiologus I woonder you should so grossely imagine an impossible matter For where hath the diuell receiued power from the Lord to dispossesse liuing soules of their organicall bodies And what must become of that liuing mans soule all the while the diuell assumeth his bodie it selfe to serue his mischieuous purpose Moreouer it is verie absurde to suppose that the diuell can possibly assume to himselfe any liuing mans bodie Because the Lord hath so vnchangeably established such an inseperable vnion betweene the soule and bodie of a liuing man as vnlesse the bodie and soule be substantially vnited
deliuered by the Angel at al but only by the immediate power of the Lord who himselfe alone did open the mouth of the asse as was shewed before Howbeit you your selfe foysting in here by the way this cunning conceite do couertly goe about I perceiue to alter the state of our question which consisteth onely of the diuel his essentiall assuming and entring into bodies Pretermitting therefore to discourse here of the diuel his sensible speaking by the meanes of a true naturall body vntil we come to entreate of actuall possession Do now say what you can for the question in hand or presently giue ouer the same Lycanthropus Satan he essentially assumed the dead body of Samuel departed yea and appeared and spake sensibly in that selfesame body therefore spirits and diuels they can also assume to themselues some naturall bodies and performe in them such natural actions Philologus Well said Lycanthropus this argument I verely suppose will hold Maister Orthodoxus very hard to his pinnes Those other before were drawen from the good angels of God who are able to do more then the diuels by much and therefore no sound reason may be concluded from them to the diuels who wanting like priuiledges are also far vnequal to them in wisedome and power But this argument which you make now from the person of satan himselfe I beleeue is a toucher and such a one as is able to driue Maister Orthodoxus to al his shifts Pneumatomachus Beleeue me sir it is a soaker in deed and therefore what say you vnto it Orthodoxus Beeing such a toucher as Philologus affirmeth I would not willingly touch it for feare of being defiled with the follie thereof And therefore letting it lie soaking a while in the suddes of your idle conceites til the maine force thereof be wasted away with the wetting I doe here tel you by the way for an answere It is generally and iudicially determined by the whole church of God yea and the marginall note in your bible doth likewise auouch that it was not Samuel himselfe that appeared but the diuel forsooth in Samuels likenesse Which being certeinely so do now tel me what substantiall consequent can possibly arise from your antecedent it beeing so false and vnsound Lycanthropus Let the church and marginall notes conclude what they please I haue the plaine text on my side which saith it was Samuel and vnto that wil I stick Orthodoxus You say you wil stick to the text Very wel said hold you fast to the words of the text and then tel me which way you wil proue it the diuel himselfe essentially in Samuels body who appeared to Saul There is no mention of the diuel in all that story neither doth the text say it was Samuels body but Samuel himselfe that appeared Exorcistes Though the diuel be not nominally exprest in the story yet there be many things in the story it self which do implicatiuely vnfold his nature vnto vs and which can haue relation to none but himselfe Namely first the Lord hauing refused before to giue answere to Saul by liuing Prophets it is vnlikely he would answere him now by the dead hauing especially forbidden the same by his word And therefore not Samuel himselfe but the diuel in Samuels body appeared to Saul Againe he that appeared did suffer himselfe to be worshipped of Saul which thing neither Samuel nor any good Angel in heauen would haue permitted and therefore it was the diuel in Samuels body Moreouer he which appeared told Saul that the next day being slaine he should be with him but Saul was a reprobate and could not be with Samuel in heauen and therefore by all the premisses it is very apparant that it could not be Samuel himselfe but must needs be the diuel in Samuels body who appeared to Saul Orthodoxus As though because some things in the storie are hardly correspondent to Samuel therefore forsooth it must needes be the Diuel and none other There be as many other things in that storie which at no hand may be applied to the Diuel but doe more fitly accord vnto Samuel and yet dare I not from thence so confidently conclude that therefore it was Samuel himselfe that appeered As first the scriptures throughout that whole storie doe say it was Samuel himselfe not the Diuel in Samuels bodie but if it were not Samuel in deede the text should report an vntruth and offer great iniurie to Samuel in naming the Diuel so oft by his name Againe he that appeered complaines vnto Saul for being wakened but Diuels being spirits doe neuer sleepe and therefore not the Diuel but Samuel himselfe appeered to Saul Againe he that appeered did truly prophesie the death of Saul and his sonnes the very next day but this the Diuel could not doe he hauing no sound foreknowledge of things neither would he haue done it for he is a lier and the father of lying and therefore not the Diuel but Samuel himselfe did appeere Briefly he that appeered tolde such a tale vnto Saul as the Diuel himselfe vnlesse he were mad or had purposed vtterly to ouerthrowe his owne kingdome would neuer haue told and therefore by all the premisses it is very apparant that it was not the Diuel but must needes be Samuel that appeered to Saul Exorcistes Notwithstanding all this some of the old fathers suppose it was the Diuel that appeered to Saul Orthodoxus They doe so but let them or some of you shew me how he appeered to Saul Lycanthropus He appeered essentially in Samuels bodie Orthodoxus The text declareth no such thing at all and it tels vs plainly it was Samuel himselfe not the Diuel in Samuels bodie Lycanthropus You your selfe alledged euen now the consent of the Church and the marginall note to prooue it the Diuel in Samuels likenes Orthodoxus The likenes of a thing is not the thing it selfe and therefore if it was the Diuel only in the likenes of Samuel then not the Diuel essentially in Samuel his bodie And so this example you see concludeth no essentiall assuming of bodies by either spirites or Diuels which was the very maine point for the which you produced the same Lycanthropus Howsoeuer you presse me with the sway of reason I doe yet confidently hold it to be the very diuel himselfe in Samuels body Orthodoxus I wonder you wil be so confident in impossibilities For Samuel he died in the yeere of the worlds creation three thousand sixty eight and Saul he was slaine in the yeere three thousand and seauenty so that there were ful two yeeres and better betweene Samuels death and these desperate dealings of Saul Now then if Lazarus body lying but foure daies dead in the graue was subiect to stinking the body of Samuel lying dead three hundred and thirty daies at the least must much more be subiect to corruption and rottennesse And therefore how is it possible the
assuming of bodies to the transforming of bodies your store then I perceiue is not great and it seemes you are almost drawen dry Howbeit because the handling of this point will craue a large discourse Let vs therefore breake off for the present And hauing with some small pittance refreshed our selues then wil we conferre hereof to the full til dinner be readie if you like of the offer Pneumatomachus Sir we like whatsoeuer you feele best for your selfe and therefore respect your owne health and we three in the meane time will repaire to our Innes and after will meet you afresh Orthodoxus Nay surely as we haue iointly ioyned together in spirituall repast so will we not sunder our selues in our corporall sustenance all the while our controuersie continueth And therefore if you doe like the thinne diet of schollers let vs in Gods name goe all together Philologus It is much to troublesome vnto you and chargeable both but sith you wil haue it so we will all iontly attend on your person Orthodoxus Let vs then arise and depart The end of the fourth Dialogue The fifth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT Whether Spirits and Diuels can essentially transforme themselues into any true naturall bodie And how those places of Scripture are to be taken which manie produce for that purpose The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Orthodoxus SIth nature by the good blessing of God is something refreshed let vs now for a while keepe close in my parlour with ful purpose to proceede in our conference till dinner be ready and then after walke forth in the aire to recreate our spirits Physiologus With very good will and therefore linger not the time but go an end in your purpose Orthodoxus Goe to then Lycanthropus repeate your argument Lycanthropus I repeate it thus Spirits and diuels they can essentially transforme themselues into any true naturall body therefore they can also essentially enter into the possessed mans body Orthodoxus Proue your antecedent Lycanthropus What sir do you flatly denie that the diuell can essentially transforme himselfe into what bodie he please I am fully resolued to hold this point whatsoeuer be said to the contrarie Orthodoxus Your vnreasonable resolution is vnto vs no reasonable conclusion neither is the question betweene vs what you wil hold but what you are able to prooue concerning this point And albeit I doubt nothing at al but that you for your owne part will hold verie much till it comes to the pinch yet we hope you will change your purpose if once you be made to perceiue that none but your selfe are of this opinion Lycanthropus Yes sir all the world I am sure iumpes pat with me in this point and verie certeine I am I shall gaine your consent to the same in the end Orthodoxus Howsoeuer you seeme confident in the common consent of the world your gaine I assure you is not like to be great by any such a supposed grant as you haplie imagine from me Lycanthropus Will you not grant that diuels may essentially transforme themselues into what bodies they please Physiologus Master Orthodoxus let me answere this point if you please Come on Lycanthropus what is the thing you would haue granted vnto you Lycanthropus Why this namely that diuels may essentially transforme themselues into a true naturall bodie Physiologus Such a grant we may yeeld you at no hand because euen Philosophie her selfe is flat opposite to it who will neuer admit any such a confused participation of essentiall formes For as essence it selfe is impartible and vndeuidable or rather a certaine incommunicable and singular matter so surely the essence and vnitie of things being preserued intier essentiall formes they cannot possiblie be cnumōicated transferred or passed ouer from that substance it selfe whereof they are formes into any other substance or matter to giue the same also an essentiall forme Because not onely the constituting forming or framing but euen also the destruction of substances doth essentially arise from the forme it selfe And looke whereunto there is giuen a forme conuenient and proportionable to one onely essence thereunto also must necessarily be giuen an vndoubted true essence Because a proper forme is the principall part of essence yea and as some learned Philosophers doe flatly affirme it is the whole essence or nature of the thing it selfe And therefore if spirits and diuels be at any time essentially transformed into men then do they foorthwith cease for that time to be spirits and diuels and may truely be said to be men Lycanthropus I doe not well conceiue your meaning Physiologus I will further explaine it thus If there be any such essentiall transforming of spirits and diuels into men as your selfe doth imagine then vndoubtedly that selfe same essentiall transformation it is either according to the body alone or according to the body and soule together If according to the body alone then that selfe same transformed body it should at one and the selfe same time become both the body of a man and the body of a diuell which were to to absurde to imagine If according to the body and soule together then either the whole man both body soule must be essentially transformed into the very essence and nature of a diuell or the diuell he must needes be essentially transformed into the very naturall body and soule of a man at the least which none but mad-men will euer affirme Againe if that essentiall transformation be effected according to the body alone then howsoeuer that selfe same body be not for the present the body of a man but is wholy transformed into the very essence and nature of a diuell yet the soule of that man must either be forced to forsake his owne body and so bring present death to the body it selfe because death is nothing else but the dissolution of soule and bodie or else the same soule it must necessarily passe from out of it owne body into the very essence of a diuell and so by consequence there must needes be a meere confusion of spirituall substances or two essentiall formes in one and the selfe same body at once which were absurde to auouch and vtterly impossible by any created power to be euer effected Lycanthropus Let Phylosophie be opposite or what she will very certaine I am the diuell can essentially transforme him selfe into any true naturall body Physiologus What man will you in deed oppose your selfe to true Phylosophie then I perceiue you respect not at all the operations and powers of nature But goe to let master Orthodoxus heare what one reason you haue in true diuinitie to mannage your said resolution Lycanthropus What one reason quoth you why man the diuell he can essentially transforme him selfe into an Angell of light therefore how much more into any true naturall body Orthodoxus You are mightily mis-led herein by mistaking the word metaschemarizetai That is to say he transmuted transfashioned
man and euery liuing thing with their proper nature substance forme constitution qualities and gifts and directeth their wils faculties and powers accordingly so hath he alotted to spirituall creatures their owne substance and properties seuerall alone to themselues and appointed them their lawes and limits beyond which they cannot possiblie passe the bredth of an haire And therefore as it is absolutely against the ordinance of God that I should flie like a bird or swim like a fish or creepe like a worme or become another creature in forme to that which by nature I am insomuch as if God would giue me leaue I could not possiblie do it for it were flat contrarie to his owne ordinance and decree yea and euen opposite to the naturall constitution of that bodie which he hath created and giuen me so is it vndoubtedly incredible that either a diuell should be essentially transformed into a man or a man substantially turned into a diuell or that either of both should reallie change themselues into any other nature substance forme constitution qualitie or gift then those verie same which they haue by creation yea or that they should possiblie applie those which they haue to any other end or vse then that which God himselfe naturally decreed and directeth them vnto Otherwise either God should be contrarie to himselfe which is farre from him or else those things must needs be supernaturall and so a true miracle in whom soeuer Neither yet is Gods omnipotencie hereby qualified but the diuell his impotencie is rather manifested and more liuely declared Who hath no further power then that which God from the beginning hath appointed vnto him and the same also consonant to his owne nature and substance The diuell I confesse may well be restrained from his naturall faculties power and will but being Gods minister beyond the same he cannot possiblie passe the bredth of a pinne neither yet any other waies or further imploie his endeuour then onely in that verie worke which the Lord from the beginning hath enabled him to do Which is that he being himselfe a spirit may vitiate and corrupt the spirit of man and therein also he is diligent enough howbeit for the doing heereof he cannot substantially alter his forme at all Philologus I haue heard many very confidently affirme that the diuell hath appeared to them in the likenes of a man a cocke a catte or a dogge Orthodoxus Yea but how are those confident affirmers certeinly sure that the man the cocke the catte or the dogge whose likenesse they sawe in appearance was indeed and in truth either spirit or diuell and not rather the Legerdemaine of some coniuring Priest or cousening companion For if a diuell can indeed essentially transforme himselfe into the likenes figure or shape of a man a dogge a catte a mouse or a toade whie can he not also transforme a man a dogge a catte a mouse or a toade into the likenes figure or shape of a diuell sith there is a like reason and possibilitie of both Howbeit we may not beleeue saith Augustine that a mans bodie can by any Arte or power of the diuell be transformed into the lineaments of a beast much lesse into the forme or substance of any infernall diuell Besides that if spirits and diuels may possiblie transforme themselues into an humane bodie then could not Christ his argument propounded to Thomas be currant good where he saith behold my hands and side and put thy finger into my hands and thrust thy hand into my side and be not faithlesse but faithfull All this how truely soeuer deliuered by Christ could neuer in truth haue satisfied Thomas concerning the resurrection of Christ if it be true in deed that diuels can truely transforme themselues into true naturall bodies For Thomas remayning vnsatisfied might boldly haue answered thus oh sir why doe you will me to handle your hands and sides that is no certeine argument to demonstrate vnto me your rising againe from the dead Because spirits and diuels you know they can truely transforme themselues into true naturall bodies and therefore notwithstanding such an experimentall or sensible knowledge you may rather be some transformed spirit or ghost to deceiue me then my Lord and my God which came for to saue me Thus then you see that if these essentiall transformations be concluded for currāt Thomas his incredulity for any thing heard might passe vncontroled Exorcistes Though the diuell cannot alter his forme substantially yet may he change the same in shape or figure I doubt not and such a distinction hath Bodin saying The essentiall forme namely reason it selfe is not changed but onely the outward shape or figure Orthodoxus Bodin he strikes it dead no doubt For here he maketh the diuell a cunning iugler who by casting a miste before mens eies can giue to spirituall substances what outward figure and forme he please Howbeit till Bodin be able to demonstrate truely vnto vs that the diuell may haue power to alter essentially a spirituall substance we will neuer acknowledge any possibilitie of transforming their shape or formes at all Exorcistes Well yet Augustine subscribes to such transformations Orthodoxus He doth I confesse Yea those and other like matters are so common in many of his workes as I am driuen to suspect they were rather cunningly foisted in by some cunning popish coniuring Priest to credit his cosening practises then carefully inserted by Augustine himselfe to set foorth a truth Howsoeuer I say with Cardanus that how many of those transformations Augustine saith he hath seene with his eies so many I am content for the reuerence I owe him to giue credit vnto All the rest I account but Cabalisticall conceits and no better in effect then foolish toies to mocke an Ape Yea and so much the rather because Augustine himselfe affirmeth those transformations to be but phantasticall and that they are not according to the veritie but according onely to their outward appearance Lycanthropus Yet such then according to outward appearance Orthodoxus I alow no such supposed appearances made by diuels because I find no such power giuen them by God in all the scriptures Besides that if we admit that diuels may take onely but formes or shapes vpon them though not the very substance it selfe of a true naturall body yet then also Christ his argument made else where vnto his disciples had not been sound in euery point saying thus handle me and see for a spirit it hath not flesh and bones as you see me to haue Setting downe visibility and palpability as things opposite to the nature of spirits and diuels reducing his disciples in discerning of spirits to the iudgment first of their eies and then next of their hands and arguing thus Spirits can neither be seen nor felt but I may both be seen and felt therefore I am no spirit And then next he reasoneth a disparatis thus A spirit it hath
you now fled from your idle conceit of essentiall possessions to the supposed actuall possessions of spirits and diuels this as it argueth euidently great want of munition to mannage that matter so it haleth vs perforce to follow your footings awhile in these your wandring vagaries that so being forcibly beaten from all hope of recouering your former hold you may be forced at the lenght to yeeld vp the conquest in the open field Howbeit this question I perceiue doth craue a larger discourse then the present time will afoord especially our dinner being now in a readinesse and staying vpon vs. Let vs therefore for the present put an ende to our speech till we haue refreshed our selues with the good blessings of God and then afterwards walke foorth and conferre of this point to the full Pneumatomachus Sir you may account vs for bold and impudent guests that are thus troublesome and chargeable to you Orthodoxus My ministerie is allotted to these kinde of troubles and my cheare I account well bestowed vpon such sort of guests therefore make no more strangenes but arise and goe with me Philologus We praise God for your kindnes and care concerning our bodies and soules and therefore doe thankfully accept of your offer and dutifully attend on your person Orthodoxus Let vs then arise and depart The end of the fifth Dialogue The sixth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT Of actuall possession what it is And whether the diuels now in these dates of the Gospell do actually possesse either the minde or the bodie by an extraordinarie afflicting or vexing The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Orthodoxus HAuing blessed the Lord for his benefits the choice shal be yours whether you will walke foorth abroad or keepe close in my Parlour and conferre there of the question for one or two howers Physiologus Sir you remember the Prouerbe After dinner sit a while and after supper walke a mile The which as it accordeth verie fitly with the rules of Physicke so will it be a furtherance to the maine purpose it selfe which we haue in hand Orthodoxus You say verie well Goe to therefore Exorcistes proceed in your purpose and tell vs what you hold concerning this point Exorcistes This I haue hitherto and yet still doe confidently holde That the diuell euen in these daies of the Gospell hath an actuall possession in men Orthodoxus Well then before you produce your proofes let vs first put downe the question it selfe in it proper termes that so we may the better perceiue the verie point of your purpose Lycanthropus I pray you proceed in that course Orthodoxus With verie good will For so the matter controuersed betweene vs may more fitly be comprehended within the true bounds of an orderly conference Philologus A verie conuenient course in my proper conceit Pneumatomachus I am iust of your minde Exorcistes Neither know I of any one that dissents from the same Tell vs therefore I praie you what is actuall possession Orthodoxus The actuall possession is that effectuall working power wherewith the diuels by an operatiue permission of God doe extraordinarily and in most woonderfull manner afflict molest torment and vexe some speciall persons in a speciall iudgement of God put ouer vnto them for that speciall purpose Wherein we haue first to obserue the primarie efficient cause namely the speciall purpose and iudgement of God Then next the secondary efficient cause I meane the effectuall working power of the diuell Thirdly the materiall cause that is to say the affliction the torment and vexation it selfe Fourthly the formall cause namely an extraordinarie manner of working And lastly the finall cause I meane some speciall purpose of God best knowen to his wisedome Lycanthropus How manifold I pray you is this actuall possession Orthodoxus It is twofold namely either mentall or corporall Lycanthropus What meane you by the mental-actuall possession Orthodoxus My meaning is not that the diuell doth really enter and essentially or inherently dwel in the possessed mans minde which we denied before when we conferred of the real-mentall possession but that he doth onely actually afflict and effectiuelie torment the possessed mans minde Lycanthropus What meane you by actually afflicting the possessed mans minde Orthodoxus By actually afflicting I vnderstand the effectuall and powerfull operation wherewith the diuell for the present doth so fearefully molest and so strangely depriue the possessed mans minde it selfe from the present vse of all reason as he makes him euen senseles and woode verie violently to rush headlong into fire and water and outragiouslie to runne vpon desperate aduentures Lycanthropus And what call you the corporall actuall possession Orthodoxus I call the corporall actuall possession that ineuitable working power whereby the diuels doe actually torment and vexe the whole or some speciall part of the possessed mans bodie Lycanthropus What meane you by actually tormenting the whole or some part of the bodie Orthodoxus My meaning is that the diuels for the present doe either powerfully disable the whole or some part of the possessed mans bodie from the orderly accomplishment of their peculiar and ordinarie operations appointed of God by depriuing the said body foorthwith of seeing of hearing of speaking of walking by bowing and bending togither or do otherwaies verie effectually enable the saide bodie or the seuerall parts thereof with some extraordinarie and vnnaturall force for the fearefull effecting of many outragious and most mischieuous practises Namely the remaining day night among graues the knapping in sunder of chaines a violent rending and tearing a tumbling headlong into fiers and waters a scriking a wallowing a foaming and leauing for dead Pneumatomachus These actuall possessions are fearefull possessions Orthodoxus They are so I confesse But what saith Exorcistes to those things that be spoken Exorcistes Sir the description which you haue made of actuall possession with those her seuerall kindes I approoue in euery point But tell me in good earnest do you absolutely denie euery such actuall possession Orthodoxus I doe freely acknowledge that the same was vndoubtedly in vse in the daies of Christ howbeit I do flatly deny any further continuance thereof now in this time of the Gospell Exorcistes Men may denie the sunne-shine at mid-daie if they coulde beare vs in hand we were blinde Orthodoxus And men may affirme the moone to be made of a greene cheese if they could make vs beleeue what they list Howbeit affirme what you will we are commanded to search the scriptures and to trie out your spirit before we beleeue you Licanthropus Good maister Orthodoxus resolue vs I praie you in this so intricate and doubtfull a matter for al men do acknowledge and my selfe hath hitherto euer held the actuall possession of diuels Orthodoxus I do neither respect what the most men acknowledge nor greatly regard what your selfe do hold so long as I haue truth on my side We must not runne after a
should you thus precisely apply this destroying of Satan to the actuall determination also of Satan his temporarie power of actuall possession Orthodoxus Because Christ elsewhere so expounds and applies it himselfe saying thus Goe you and tell Herod that foxe behold I cast out diuels and will heale still to day and to morrow and the third day I shall be perfected or will make an end As if Christ should haue said thus to the Pharisies you goe verie cunningly about to discourage me from doing my dutie by telling me of Herod his threatning my death But know this for a certen that I am so farre off from fearing the threats of that foxe as I would haue you tell him plainely from me that for the whole time I haue yet to liue I will be throughly industrious in doing the busines I haue now in hand especially in driuing out diuels and in curing diseases vntill I haue both fully confirmed the glorie of my Deitie and am come to the verie period it selfe of satan his actuall destruction The which also I am now the more earnestly in hand withal because within these three daies I must euen actually accomplish the same by my determined death And then I shall be perfected or then I will make an end of that busines Which perfecting or ending of Christ may in no wise be vnderstood of Christ his essentiall being because that could not be destroyed by death in as much as he was to be quickened againe by the mightie power of the father in his resurrection from death Neither could it haue reference to the finall determination of his office of mediation for therein he stil liueth and must liue an high priest for euer And therefore it must needs be vnderstood of the actuall accomplishment of that his glorious tryumph ouer satan his actuall possession according to that he saith here behold I cast foorth diuels to day and to morrow and the third day I shall be perfected or I will make a finall ende of that speciall busines Exorcistes But why should you so precisely apply the determination of satan his power of possession to the very period it selfe of Christs death sith after his said death it is very apparant there were dispossessions of diuels by the twelue Apostles and seuenty disciples Orthodoxus There were dispossessions I grant effected by them a time after Christ his death for confirmation of his glorious Gospel but none at all for the declaration of Christs deity no Christ alone did fully determine the dispossessions for that speciall purpose by his owne death and resurrection which to that end was the last miracle for euer as him selfe hath auouched saying An euil and adulterous generation seeketh a signe but no signe shal be giuen vnto it saue the signe of Ionah the prophet For as Ionah was three daies and three nights in the whales belly so shall the sonne of man be three daies and three nights in the hart of the earth Loe here he maketh his death and resurrection the last miracle of all for the glorious manifestation of his actual power ouer satan Exorcistes Whatsoeuer you say or whomsoeuer you produce for the proofe of your purpose the former exposition of the 12 of Iohn is something more then that which hath beene vsually receiued Orthodoxus Wel I doe freely confesse that the spirits of the prophets they are authentically subiected to the censure of the prophets If therefore any thing be reuealed to another let him in the name of God propound the same with pregnant proofes and my selfe will foorthwith be silent In the meane time I conclude from thence as before that seeing our sauiour Christ hath long since determined the extraordinary power of actuall possession therefore none now may possibly reuiue the opinion of any such possession nor yet conscionably auouch the continuance thereof Exorcistes Conclude what you please but I hold as before the actuall possession of diuels Orthodoxus What man will you wilfully oppose your selfe against vnanswerable reasons against authoritie of ancient writers and which more is against the plaine euidence of sacred scriptures Exorcistes If the propounding and persisting in truth be deemed a plaine opposition to that which you hold then for any thing hitherto heard I must constantly dwell in such an opposition for I may doe nothing against the truth but for the truth Orthodoxus You dwell you say in a truth and yet haue you no one colour of truth to vphold your supposed truth For what one probable reason haue you at all that may make you so confident in this your preposterous conceit Exorcistes Why sir what better reason then common experience Orthodoxus Common experience I confesse will carrie a woonderfull sway in any apparant truth Howbeit because this point doth craue some longer discourse then the state of our bodies without some intermission wil be able to endure Let vs therefore goe take the fresh ayre for one hower and then returne to our purpose a fresh Physiologus We like verie well of your motion Orthodoxus Come then arise and let vs depart The end of the sixth Dialogue The seuenth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT Common experience what it is Whether the actuall possession of Spirits and Diuels especially that your supposed possession in the yoongman at Magnitton may be prooued thereby And of the Diuell his power of obsession The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Orthodoxus NOw surely this fresh aire it hath woonderfully reuiued my spirits and made me as apt to any good action as I was in the morning Oh how highly are we beholding to God for the sanctified vse of so singular a creature Physiologus Sir not onely this one but all the other creatures of God they are comfortable and helpefull vnto vs if we had the grace to vse them aright Orthodoxus Vertue true as you say howbeit this is besides our entended purpose Come on therefore Exorcistes tell vs what one reason you haue for this your confident persisting in so fond a conceite Exorcistes Sir in the verie last speech which passed betweene vs I told you I had common experience not onely to prooue the actuall possession of spirits and diuels but also to approoue of my owne action wrought at Magnitton Orthodoxus What meane you by common experience Exorcistes I do vnderstand thereby such an experimented knowledge concerning these matters in question as hath beene experienced in euerie age of the worlde testified of old and yoong and approoued directly by a generall consent Such an experience I am certeine I haue to confirme me in this my opinion Physiologus Maister Orthodoxus this point more especially respecteth my proper profession and therefore if you thinke it any ease to your selfe do put ouer the prosecution thereof vnto me Orthodoxus With verie good will Physiologus Come on then Exorcistes let vs heare the best argument you haue for this your opinion Exorcistes There can
the same is onely a meere humane exercise not hauing in it owne selfe any sanctitie or holines at all Besides all this that which you say is too to absurd For if the onely exercise of fasting be made an effectuall meanes for dispossessing the diuell then may the same in like manner be made also an effectuall meanes for the effectuall suppressing of all those actuall sinnes whatsoeuer which the diuell suggests into men Because an actiue vértue which hath an abilitie in that which is greater it hath an abilitie also in that which is lesse that lesse especially being essentially subordinate in one and the selfesame kinde as are the actuall sinnes suggested by Satan to Satan himselfe And so by consequence any other creature else onely but abstayning a time as you did from meates and drinkes it may also be made an effectuall meanes to dispossesse the diuell himselfe and withall to suppresse his diuellish suggestions Exorcistes Nay sir I make not my exercise of fasting the efficient cause of that selfesame admirable action but an assistent rather in the fruitfull performance of that forcible prayer which forced the diuell to depart Not that my said prayer had beene vnfruitfull without some such speciall assistance of fasting ioyned therewith but for that the flesh being thereby tamed the better my spirit more feruently performed that selfesame prayer which then and there dispossessed the diuell Physiologus Why were you then so fond to affirme at the first that without the ioynt exercise of fasting and prayer together your prayer it selfe had beene vtterly frustrate concerning especiallie that speciall action Well then let vs proceed It was not your exxercise of fasting then but your forcible prayer that forced the diuell to depart But tell me I pray you do you not esteeme of that selfesame actuall possession as of an extraordinarie and a meere supernaturall matter Exorcistes Yes sir I dare flatly affirme that the same was entirely and wholie a meere supernaturall matter For had the same beene anie way naturall it should then haue proceeded from some such naturall causes or wantes in the partie himselfe as might haue beene otherwaies cured by physicall helpes and meere naturall meanes Whereas this the actuall possession in the yoongman there it had as Physicions affirme somewhat Diuine or supernaturall the same also incurable by any humane or ordinarie skill and which could not otherwaies be possiblie cured but by the onely ordinarie meanes of fasting and praier Physiologus I like well your plainenes But tell me yet farther I praie you whether your said action of fasting and praier for that dispossessing of Satan was any other thing else but a created or meere naturall action Exorcistes Nay surely sir that selfesame action as it proceeded from me and was simplie performed by me it was no other thing else but a meere naturall action For how coulde I possiblie practise any vncreated or supernaturall action being my selfe but a created or meere naturall agent Physiologus Yea but the effect which folowed of that your saide naturall action I meane that extraordinarie dispossession of satan it was vndoubtedly if any at all a supernaturall effect and so you absurdly conclude that an onely created or meere naturall cause it may eftsoones â—ffect some supernaturall actions Exorcistes Do make of the matter what pleaseth your selfe very certaine I am that my prayer alone did effectually driue foorth the diuell Physiologus Well be it supposed your verie prayer alone did effectually driue foorth the diuell as you verie fondly imagine wherein I beseech you consisted the efficacie force of your prayer Whether in sound or in voice or in wordes If onely in sound why might not then a tabret or drume haue also effected that selfesame admirable action seeing as shrill and as forcible a sound might haue proceeded from them as could possiblie proceed from your selfe Againe if onely in voice why might not a lyon a bull or a beare haue effected the enterprize sith they had beene able more terriblie to haue roared bellowed or brayed foorth their voices abroad then you your own selfe Briefly if neither in sound nor in voice but onely in words why might not then some pratling Parrat haue driuen foorth that diuell sith shee also might well haue beene taught to prattle foorth words if onely bare wordes would haue borne out the busines But perhaps you would haue vs imagine that the efficacie of your prayer did onely consist in the wordes of a man then must we withal be thus much perswaded at least namely that the verie bare wordes of a mortall man albeit they vanish in the aire as they are vttered foorth yet haue they in themselues such a secret force as is able to driue foorth a diuell Oh heere is â—oughtie good stuffe if the world were once quicke Exorcistes You are highly to blame in blazing abroad as you doe such sharpe Satyricall quippes and gyrding taunts against my admirable action wrought at Mahgnitton For by disgracing that woonderfull worke of the Lord the holie exercise of fasting and praier is shamefully scorned and brought into publike disgrace Physiologus I neither disgrace the holy actions of God nor scorne at any his sacred ordinances no I more truely esteeme and more sincerely reuerence the holy exercise of fasting praier then you do your selfe by much For whereas I onely approoue of the power and practise thereof according to truth your selfe by prophaning the same in such falsly supposed actions do make the holie exercise of fasting and praier to be shamefully scorned of atheistes derided of papists yea and very shrewdly to be suspected with weakelings So that you your owne selfe by these your disordered dealings do rather bring that holy ordinance of God into publique disgrace Exorcistes Do I bring praier and fasting into publique disgrace when I vse them onely in driuing foorth diuels Physiologus Why man you confesse them but meere naturall actions as they were performed by your selfe and you haue heard it sufficiently prooued before that no created or meere naturall power may possibly extend it selfe to any such supernaturall actions as is the extraordinary expelling of spirits and diuels And therefore by abusing the holy exercise of praier and fasting about such fasly supposed possessions of diuels what do you therein in effect but bring them directly into publique disgrace as I told you before Exorcistes What you told me before it makes no matter I both know what I did and what was my purpose in dooing the same Physiologus In deed it should seeme you propounded to your selfe some speciall purpose flat opposite to the holy ordinance of God and thereupon hath followed so bad an effect Exorcistes Why sir hath not the Lord established praier and fasting as an ordinary perpetuall meanes for the powerfull expelling of spirits and diuels By vsing the same therefore as I did in that admirable action I walked therein according to the holy ordinance of God Orthodoxus I
like maner beleeue and confesse that euen Christ also respecting onely his humanitie and many other of the saints besides in the powerfull effecting of many miraculous actions did ministerially or instrumentally accomplish the same Neither yet doe I account the humanitie of Christ and other the saints of God as instruments equally alike in the working of miracles but distinguish them also according to their differing degrees For howsoeuer distinguishing only the primary instrumental efficients I did sort theÌ„ in one and the selfesame ranke yet I acknowledge withall an apparant plaine difference euen in those instruments themselues respecting especially their different maner of working And therefore it will greatly enlighten our matter if we doe further declare first how the humanitie of Christ is an instrument in the orderly effecting of miracles and then next how other good men may also be said to be instruments Lycanthropus A verie excellent order I pray you therefore proceed Physiologus With verie good-will First therefore although it be true that Iehouah alone is the primarie or principall efficient of euerie miraculous action yet this also is as certeinly true that Iehouah doth eftsoones effect those admirable actions by some such chosen instruments as seemeth good to his wisedome Neither are those his saide instruments of one and the selfesame condition for the instruments wherewith the Lord serueth his purpose they are twofold namely either conioyned or seperated instruments The conioyned instrument is Iesus Christ who albeit he be God and man yet is he not two but one Christ. And therefore the diuinitie and humanitie being inseperablie vnited togither in the person of Christ the saide humanitie it becommeth eftsoones a conioyned instrument vnto the diuinitie it selfe in the powerfull effecting of miracles Whereas all other men else howsoeuer they also may be the instruments of God in working of miracles yet are they onely but seperated instruments and not so neerely vnited vnto the diuinitie it selfe in any those admirable actions as is the humanitie of Christ and therefore though instruments also yet no such excellent instruments as is the humanitie of Iesus Christ. This if it seemeth obscure to our sense may verie fitly be illustrated from the resemblance of a Carpenter entending and effecting some admirable worke if we consider therein the Carpenters minde his hand and his axe For first the minde of the Carpenter it being in perpetuall motion is the primarie efficient cause of that selfesame entended busines but yet the Carpenters hand is a conioyned and his axe also a seperated instrument wherewith he effecteth the purposed worke Now then euen as the Carpenters minde it selfe doth primarily effect the whole worke but yet so as he vseth withal his hand as a conioyned his axe as a seperated instrumeÌ„t to accomplish the same so surely the diuinitie alone doth principally effectâ—ech woonderfull thing whatsoeuer although yet the diuinitie it selfe so oft as seemeth him good doth vse the humanitie of Christ as a conioyned and other good men as a seperated instrument for the orderly accomplishment of many most admirable matters And therefore euen as the axe can worke nothing at all but by the power of the hand neither yet the hand it selfe but by the onely direction of the Carpenters minde so surely the holiest person on earth can effect no admirable action at all but in and by the power of Iesus Christ as by the hand of the Deitie neither yet the saide hand I meane the humanitie of Iesus Christ which is as it were a conioyned hand vnto his diuinitie it can of it selfe no further accomplish any one supernaturall action then the diuinitie alone doth dispose it and direct it vnto So then howsoeuer the humanitie of Christ and many other good men did instrumentally effect many admirable matters and therefore in that selfesame respect were onely but the organicall instruments vnto the diuinitie it selfe the onelie true agent in all those actions yet surely the humanitie of Christ is a much more excellent instrument then any of the other besides in an especiall regard of that Unspeakable diuinitie whereunto it is inseperablie vnited By vertue whereof it was wholie sufficient for Christ being perfectly God and man to say thus to the diuell I charge thee come out of the partie possessed whereas all others adiured him only in the name and power of Iesus Christ to depart Howbeit whether those good men themselues or the humanitie of Christ being solely and onely considered as they are in themselues without any transcending respect of the deitie did by meanes of their owne naturall power existing naturally in them effect any such admirable matters that I suppose may iustly be doubted Lycanthropus I pray you resolue vs something herein Physiologus How may I dare to resolue you in that which some others of singuler account hath left in suspence For Augustine entreating of the manifold miracles wrought by the Saintes he leaues the matter vndiscussed thus Whether the eternall God doth work these admirable matters by himselfe alone or whether he effecteth these things by his Ministers yea and euen those selfe-same things also which are wrought by his Ministers or whether he doth these things by the spirits of Martyrs departed or by the bodies of good men yet liuing or whether by his Angels inuisibly immutably or incomprehensibly he accomplish the same or whether by any other meanes else which may not be comprehended of mortall men the faith of the resurrection to erernall life will one day make it apparantly euident Loe thus much saith Augustine and so leaueth the matter Exorcistes Yea but Gregory he seemes to determine the same in this sort Those holy men saith he who claue fast to the Lord with a deuoute and religious mind they were accustomed to work many miracles both principally and instrumentally I meane sometimes by praier and sometimes againe by an actuall power permitted vnto them Physiologus Gregory you say he seemes to determine the matter If this be all that he saith therein then surely he vndertaketh more in a seeming shew then he is able to performe in any shewing substance at all For that which you aleadge from Gregory is no determination vnlesse you happely imagine that we may boldly beleeue it because your Gregory doth but barely report it Exorcistes Nay sir he doth not barely report the matter but he prooues it very soundly by reason and example both Physiologus Shew vs his reason first that we may soundly examine the soundnesse thereof Exorcistes His reason is this They to whome is granted a greater power in that which is more it is no merueile at all if a like power be eftsoones permitted vnto them in that which is lesse But a power to be made the sonnes of God by adoption which is more then the working of miracles is freely permitted to all the Saints of God and therefore there is no wonder at all though
the powerfull execution of which Processe he so canuassed that cumbersome Spirit as he was glad to betake himselfe to the vttermost borders of Aegypt and euer since then the countrey hath beene free from such dangerous bug-boyes and therefore you may boldly submit your selfe Exorcistes If I submit to this motion my credit is crackt in the world Orthodoxus Why stand you so much vpon your outward reputation before the face of the world against the plaine euidence of your inward conscience in the presence of God Or why will you in this case especially so fondly respect the flying reports of phantasticall felowes What will it preiudice your person though blind ignorance should cancell your credit in the transitorie tables of worldly mens harts when your owne conscience doth not rase foorth your name from the euerlasting Booke of the liuing Put case that those good reports which the world doth affoord you be not found to be faithfully registred in the closet of your conscience then what other effect can they cause in the same but an inward tormenting torture Put case againe that those bad reports wherewith the vile world would besmeere your credit among men be found vtterly false in the consistory of your secret conscience Oh what an exceeding great ioy will be resident there and keepe in the same a continuall feast So then if your owne conscience accuse you not you must not so greatly regard the causeles contumelies of cinicall censurers as that for the same you care not to torture your conscience with continuall torments Neither may you be perswaded that other mens lying reportes are esteemed more authenticall before the tribunall seat of Christ the righteous Iudge then the approoued testimonie of your owne conscience which stands there to be acquited in iudgement The premisses therefore considered I would aduise you rather to respect conscience then fame for fame may oftsoones be forged but so can conscience neuer and therefore submit your selfe Exorcistes Alas sir I am by the verie force of your speech so fearefully distracted as I wotte not which waies to turne me For if I stande out as hitherto I haue done you will repute me to be peeuishly obstinate on the otherside by submitting my selfe to your motion I should but confirme the Bishop in their badde opinion concerning my cause Who suspecting me to be confederate with the boie in some cosening practise haue hitherto handled me too too hardly Orthodoxus Your setled pertinancie in so apparant an vntruth hath bred in euerie of them that bad opinion and your peeuish persisting therein doth more fully confirme them in such a conceit Touching their hard proceeding against your person if you simply respect the cause they could do no lesse then they did although yet respecting especially your place and calling it were to be wished that as well on their as on your owne behalfe a more considerate regard had beene giuen to the maine cause it selfe without any such eger persute or preposterous apologies cōcerning matters of fact For then so soone as it had been made apparantly euident that there are now no possessions at all your standing out in the matter would foorthwith haue beene nipt in the head Whereas they now suspecting perhaps that you had some sinister purpose to manage your publike fasts by such a pretended false miracle haue shewed the more sharpenes and your selfe on the otherside surmizing it may be that they onely maligning the puritie of your pretended profession haue continued so much the more obstinate All which inconsiderate courses and preposterous practises would haue beene fitly forestalled if betweene you all the cause it selfe had beene cleered Howbeit the remedie comes neuer vnseasonablie which may fully effect the cure and that I assure my selfe may yet be accomplished by your dutifull and humble submission Exorcistes Sir notwithstanding anie your patheticall perswasions the premisses considered I may in no wise submit Physiologus Master Orthodoxus that which hath beene hitherto spoken may fully suffice to perswade any reasonable person affecting the sincere truth with freedome of conscience Howbeit this fellow I perceiue he is wholie ouerswaied with some spiced singularitie or with a peeuish selfewill at the least in not submitting himselfe to that truth which he is vnable to answer for any thing hitherto heard You haue I confesse beene toiled too much respecting especially your present meditations for the Sabaoth daies exercise and therefore it shall not be amisse to put an end to our conference In the meane time let Exorcistes repaire to his familiar friendes and those of his faction how many or mightie soeuer Let him intimate our whole discourse to their approoued iudgements Let them dulie consider and exactly perpend the seuerall points and then let them in a more mature deliberation deuise with themselues whether it be better for the man to submit or still to stand out as he doth If they aduise him to yeeld a submission we haue our harts desire and God the whole glorie If otherwise they will haue him standfast to his tackling Let then signifie the manner how with the time and place for our meeting and we will be readie from time to time to conferre with them to the full if they accept of our offer Lycanthropus This is in my simple conceite a Christian motion Pneumatomachus If they dislike they shall greatly discredit their cause Physiologus They are bound to praise God for your Christian care Orthodoxus Well then in the meane time we will pray vnto God to enlighten our iudgements to make vs wise to sobrietie and to giue vnto vs the spirit of discretion that we may be able to discerne the things that differ and to approoue only of those things which are pleasing to God in Iesus Christ and so I take my leaue for the present 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Soli Deo gloria 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A summarie Table of all the principall points the speciall matters the seuerall syllogismes and the sundrie expositions of such places of Scripture as are any way pertinent to the maine purpose it selfe The first Dialogue pag. 1. CHristian conferences and their commendable vse pag. 2. Sommers his supposed passions put downe 4 Mans nature is euer desirous of Nouelties 6 Christian exercises must be begun with praier 7 Pneumatomachus what it properly signifieth 8 That there are essentiall spirits and diuels 9 Angels are celestiall creatures created of God ibid. Spirits and diuels supposed to be nothing else but the good or euill motions in men ibid. Angels supposed to be none other thing els but the sensible signes of Gods woonderfull power ibid. It is dangerous to denie the essentiall being of spirits and diuels 11 Man is endued with a spirituall and immortall soule ibid. The originall fountaines or grounds of all errors 12 Physiologus and what the same signifieth 13 Philosophie is not simplie forbidden Col. 2. 8. ibid. The true vse of Philosophie expressed ibid. The minde what
it is and the effects thereof ibid. The minde how it is corrupted naturally 14 The minde differeth from the will and how ibid. Phantasie what it is and how it worketh ibid. The naturall man vnable to comprehend spirituall things 14 15 Anthropomorphites errour and whence it sprang 17 Scriptures expounded hand ouer head doe procure a thousand absurdities 18 Reasons proouing Spirits and Diuels to be more then the good or euill motions of men 18 19 Angels not mentioned in the Worlds creation 21 Angels and Spirits not eternall or vncreated 22 Angels in what day they were created 23 24 Reasons to prooue the essentiall being of Angels ibid. Testimonies of Fathers for the essentiall being of Angels 24 Angels created on the second day 24 25 Reasons to prooue the essentiall being of Angels 26 Angels how they are saide to be euill 28 To be created good and still to retaine that selfesame goodnes are two distinct things 29 Boyling affections the causes of controuersies 30 Physiologus and what the same signifieth 31 Possessions doubted in these daies of the Gospell 32 Satans dominion ouer men what it is and how the same is limited 33 Possession and what it importeth ibid. The worde Possession is not peculiarly appropriated to the Diuel throughout the whole Bible ibid. If the Lord had euer entended an essentiall possession of Diuels he wanted not fit words to expresse it 34 Possession what it is in the Hebrue toong 35 Possession what it signifieth in the Greeke toong 37 Possession how the same is defined 40 Reall possession of Diuels what it is 41 Mentall possession what it is thought to be ibid. Reall possession whether in the minde alone or in the body alone or in the minde and bodie togither ibid. Satan needs no mentall possession for the actuall accomplishment of sinne in any 42 The maner of Satan his proceeding with men 43 44 Reasons against the reall mentall possession 45 46 Our iudgement concerning the reall mentall possession is mightily deceiued by relying too much on the bare letter 48 Satan being a Spirit doth principally affect mans spirit 49 After what manner the Diuell hath a mentall possession 50 Spirits and Diuels are substantiall creatures 51 Diuels are Spirits by nature and Angels by office ibid. Diuels are spirituall and finite substances 52 53 Whether mans minde be a receptacle or place circumscribing the Diuell 53 Whether mans minde be a common or proper place for the Diuell 54 Whether it be a corporall or an imaginarie place 55 Things are said to be in a place three maner of waies 56 Corporall substances are in a place dimensiuely ibid. Spirituall substances are in a place determinately 57 God is in a place indefinitiuely and repletiuely ibid. Angels and Diuels howsoeuer they propound diuers ends their maner of working is euer the same 58 Diuels how and by what meanes they torment men 60 God is the onely encliner of mans minde 61 Mans minde is inclined either by an interiour efficient or by an exterior agent 62 The third Dialogue pag. 64. COrporall possession what it is supposed to be of some 65 Reall corporall possession what it is ordinarily thought to be ibid. Entring in and dwelling there do imply no essentially inherency but an effectuall operation in the bodies of men 66 The Metaphor of entring in rightly expounded and fitly explicated by the example of Saul and Dauid 67 The word Tsalak verie truely expounded by conference with other places of scripture 68 A good rule for the right vnderstanding of such scriptures as doe any way concerne the extraordinarie operation of Spirits 69 Sundrie reasons against the reall corporall possession 70 Mans minde is an incorporall substance being simply considered 70 71 The proper operations of the minde are either organicall or animall ibid. The organicall operations of the minde what they are 72 The animall operations of the minde what they are ibid. Whether mans minde or the Diuell be answerable for the actions done by the bodie during the time of Satans possession 73 74 God in the first creation of bodies neuer purposed any such reall corporal possessions of Diuels 74 Gods image was not lost in Adam as touching the essence 76 A humane bodie is onely capable of an humane soule 77 Satan so possesseth as Christ inuadeth ibid. There is no one necessarie vse or end of such a possession ibid. If the Diuell be in the possessed mans bodie essentially then is he so either hypostatically or formally 78 How the reall corporall possession may be perceiued 78 79 Whether Diuels haue their proper or their assumed bodies or whether no bodies at all 80 Celestiall bodies haue onely their celestiall motions and elementarie bodies their elementarie motions 80 81 Grosse absurdities ensuing the opinion of corporall Diuels ibid. It is absurd to hold that Diuels haue airie bodies 82 Augustine is not sound concerning the supposed airie bodies of Spirits and Diuels 83 Though it were graunted that Diuels might adde vnto yet may they not diminish or alter their substantiall being 84 Fower seuerall sorts of Spirits found in the word ibid. Angels haue eftsoones their assumed bodies and why 85 The testimonie of fathers pretending corporall Diuels 86 Reasons directly concluding the incorporietie of Diuels 94 Testimonie of fathers concerning that point 95 The Grand Iuries verdict against corporall Diuels 96 The Laterane Councell concluding the same 97 The fourth Dialogue pag. 99. WHether Diuels can essentially assume true naturall bodies 9. Whether that bodie which the Diuels are supposed to assume be a true naturall or but a phantasticall bodie 100 The Diuell had neuer power to assume essentially any liuing mans bodie pag. 101 The Diuel had neuer power to assume essentially any dead mans body ibi It is absurd to hold the Diuell his assuming of dead mens bodies 101 102 Whether the Diuell can assume to himselfe an vncreated bodie 102 The Lord alone is the onely creator of bodies ibid. It is absurd to imagine that God should create bodies for Satan 103 Satan hath no power at all to create a bodie 104 Arguments pretending the Diuell his essentiall assuming of bodies 105 It is no good argument to hold that because good Angels haue therefore euill Angels may also assume to themselues true natural bodies 105 106 That place in the Psalme 78. 49. is verie truely expounded 107 The Diuell did not essentially assume to himselfe the serpents body 108 Whether it was the Diuell alone or the serpent alone or the Diuell and serpent together that tempted Euah 109 It is ordinarie in the scriptures to vse the names of other creatures in setting foorth vnto vs the intellectuall creatures 111 Reasons declaring why it was not the serpent but the Diuell himselfe set foorth by the name of a serpent that tempted Euah ibid. A verie good Canon for the faithfull expounding of scriptures 112 It is no absurditie or impietie at all to hold that Moses vnder the person of a poysoning serpent did metaphorically
actions be possibly performed of such as are not in deed true substances 3 Againe things created in them selues and not in an other subiect yea and so as they subsist of them selues alone those things vndoubtly haue a true subsistance But spirits and Diuels they are so created no doubt as they subsist in them selues neither are they inherent or inexistent in any other subiect whatsoeuer and therefore spirits and Diuels they haue vndoubtedly a true subsistance 4 Againe whatsoeuer liuing creature is endued with reason vnderstanding and will that must needs be some thing of it selfe subsisting but spirits and Diuels they are liuing creatures endued with reason vnderstanding and will and therefore somethings no doubt of themselues subsisting 5 Againe nothing can possiblie persist in the truth nor nothing can fall from their first estate vnlesse the same be some essence subsisting of it selfe and pertaker also of vnderstanding and will But some of the Angels doe perseuere in the truth and some againe haue fallen from the same and therefore Angels and spirits are some essences subsisting of themselues and pertakers also of vnderstanding and will 6 Againe if spirits and Diuels were onely but the euill motions and affections arising in men it shoulde be absurde either to distinguish their numbers or to expresse their seuerall actions but the consequent is false as all that feare God will confesse and therefore also the antecedent it selfe 7 Againe whatsoeuer doth speake assault suggest tempt afflict torment and circumuent to deuoure that must necessarilie be a subsistance But spirits and Diuels doe so for they spake to Euah they assaulted Achab and suggested an vntruth into all his prophets they tempted Christ they afflicted and tormented Saul they made Iudas to hang himselfe they seeke to winnowe and fanne men yea to circumuent al the children of God to destruction and therefore spirits and Diuels must necessarilie be some subsistance 8 Againe if Angels and spirits be onely but accidentall affections and no true substances in deed then neither shall we after this life be anie true substances for the scriptures affirme that after the resurrection we shall be like to the Angels in heauen Now then if Angels and spirits be not true substances in deed shall we also cease to be substances 9 Againe Aristotle he prooues this world to be perfect for that it consistes of all those things which can be desired therein or which may in any wise appertain to the perfection thereof Howbeit to the perfection of the whole there is required therein three seuerall sorts of substances the first inuisible the second visible and the third partly inuisible partly visible The second sort namely the visible substances are the heauens the elements and all things made of the elements The third sort namely the substances partly inuisible and partly visible are men who consist of a soule and body togither the soule inuisible and the bodie visible Now then if Angels who are of themselues inuisible should not be substances then should there be wanting to the world inuisible substances and so the worlde should be vnperfect But the world it is perfect as all both Philosophers and Diuines do affirme And therefore Angels they be substances inuisible and spirituall 10 Lastly common experience from the beginning of the world to this present hower hath apparently approued vnto vs that there be Angelicall spirits and Diuels and therefore not to be denied of any vnlesse he will shew himselfe a swinish Saduce or some monkish Anthropomorphite as was shewed before And thus haue you briefly heard my seuerall reasons which prooue vnto you both spirits and Diuels Pneumatomachus Sir by that which you haue spoken I am now throughlie perswaded that Angels are indeed essentiall and spirituall substances Howbeit this one thing doth trouble me greatly namely that seeing all Angels were equally created according to the true image of God no one of them all may truely be said to be euill Orthodoxus You do well in deliuering your doubtes but goe to frame your argument Pneumatomachus I frame it thus A thing created to the image of God cannot be nor may not be said to be euill But all Angels and spirites were in the beginning created all alike to the image of God therefore no Angell or spirite either can be or may be said to be euill Now sir if none of them can or may be said to be euill how should there be any Diuels at all Orthodoxus Verie true as you saie if that which you seeme to conclude were as truely concluded Howbeit I answere thus First concerning your proposition I say That so farre foorth as any thing created to Gods image hath truelie that image keepeth and looseth it not so farre foorth and so long anie such thing may not truely be saide to be euill Now next to your assumption I answere thus All those Angelicall spirits so created of God they did not retaine and holde falt that true image of God wherein they were first created but willingly reiected and fledde from the same And therefore I distinguish thus Angels created in the beginning according to the true image of God did either perseuer in that originall integritie or else they wilfully fell from the same The one sort are finally confirmed in that selfe-same goodnes wherein they were first created and therefore good Angels the other sort loosing their first goodnes are hardened in that selfe-same euill whereinto they first fell and therefore euill Angels So then to imagine that the euill Angels also notwithstanding their euilnes must still shewe foorth that selfe-same image of God from which they fearefully fell is nothing else in effect but to confound the formes of their distinguished kindes For it is one thing to be created good and another thing still to retaine that selfe-same goodnes The one is past the other is present And the vanitie of that childish conceite may be made euident by the like reason thus All men are created in Adam to the image of God But Atheists and vngodly ones are men therefore Atheistes and vngodly ones they shewe foorth the image of God Here is more in the conclusion then was put in the premisses For this onely shoulde folowe namely that Atheistes in as much as they are men were first created according to the image of God but in that they are now falne they do resemble the image of the Diuell Pneumatomachus Sir my iudgement concerning these points is now I praise God so cleerly enlightned as my neighbour Lycanthropus my selfe may wel be at one being both fully resolued I hope in that selfe same controuersie which we held so hotly as we came from Mahgnitton Lycanthropus If you be therein at one with your selfe you are also at one with me For I was resolued before and your selfe now confesfesseth that there are essentiall spirits and diuels Pneumatomachus Yea I doe freely confesse
may by no meanes any longer endure your palpable vntruthes or rather most blasphemous speeches For where hath the Lord established praier and fasting as an extraordinary perpetuall meanes for the powerfull expelling of spirits and diuels Exorcistes Euen in the seauenteene of Mathew and ninth of Marke where he telleth vs plainely that this kind goeth not foorth or can by no other meanes else be cast out but by praier and fasting Orthodoxus What conclude you from thence Exorcistes This I conclude and very confidently hold namely that one beeing possessed praier and fasting is to be vsed for the casting out of satan as a meanes appointed of God to that speciall end Orthodoxus Do you hold that in good earnest Exorcistes Yea in very good earnest And this I doubt not but I am able to prooue by the holy scriptures and further to confirme the same by the testimony of ancient and late writers by the practise also of the primitiue church in all ages and the good successe thereof Orthodoxus Then will I be bound for one twelue moneths space to keepe your kine for nothing Howbeit because this point will craue a long discourse and I feele my selfe somewhat weary with sitting let vs go walke a turne or two in my parlour And hauing reuiued our spirits by the singing of psalmes returne againe to our purpose Physiologus I for my owne part like well of your motion Lycanthropus The same I dare say for all the rest Orthodoxus Arise then and let vs depart The end of the eight Dialogue The ninth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT Whether Praier and fasting be established by Christ as a perpetuall ordinarie meanes for the powerfull expelling of diuels Whether the power therein be a vocal or a personall power Or whether a true iustifying faith apprehending some supernaturall power of God doth effect that worke The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Orthodoxus BLessed be the name of our God for these sweete recreations oh how they comfort the soule and refresh the bodie Surely our crazie bodies they would soone be infeebled were they not daily supported by such sanctified props yea and our soules also they would languish euerie hower were they not eftsoones comforted by such gracious refreshings from God Physiologus It is vndoubtedly so as you saie and therefore how highly are we bound to extoll his mercifull kindnes Orthodoxus Verie true But come Exorcistes let vs loose no time Hath Christ established prayer and fasting for the perpetuall expelling of spirits and diuels Exorcistes There is no doubt at all to be made of that matter Orthodoxus I am doubtfull thereof I assure you neither will you be able I feare to cleere me of that doubt so long as I haue breath in my bodie For this I must tell you for certeine that if praier and fasting be perpetually appointed by Christ for the powerfull expelling of spirits and diuels then must we necessarilie esteeme thereof as of an holy established ordinance for that selfesame purpose Exorcistes Yea no doubt it is an holie established ordinance for that verie same purpose Orthodoxus If it be an holie ordinance perpetually establisht by Christ as you beare vs in hand then hath it also an apparant commandement appertaining vnto it for the authenticall approbation of such a perpetuall establishment it hath also some certeine Canons and rules concerning out orderly directions therein But no such commandement or canon is any where extant in all the Scriptures therefore praier and fasting is no perpetuall ordinance establisht by Christ to any such speciall purpose Exorcistes I vnderstand not your argument it is so obseurely and so intricately propounded vnto vs. Orthodoxus It is apparant enough if you were not wilfully blinde howbeit I will repeate and propound it more cleerely thus If praier and fasting be such an established ordinance then that establishment is apparantly exprest in the Scriptures but the latter is false therefore also the first Exorcistes Why sir hath not our Sauiour himselfe put downe an expresse commandement for the perpetuall establishment of such an ordinance where he telleth vs plainely that this kind goeth not foorth but by prayer and fasting What may be more cleere then this Orthodoxus Do you call this a cleere commandement for the perpetuall establishment of such an ordinance Exorcistes What may be more cleere Orthodoxus You do herein too to fondly bewray your grosse ignorance and make cleere to the world your want of iudgement concerning the purpose of Christ in that place Which was onely to make knowne the accidentall impediment in that selfe-same action and not to put downe any essentiall commandement concerning the supposed perpetuitie of any such sacred ordinance as your selfe do imagine For what manner of argument is this that you make This kind goeth not foorth but by praier and fasting therefore from hencefoorth saith Christ I do solemnly establish prayer and fasting as a perpetuall ordidinance for the powerfull expelling of spirits and diuels for euer This foloweth faire and farre of from the purpose you aime at Againe if the holy ghost in that place had either expresly or implicatiuely entended to put downe a commaundement for the perpetuall establishment of any such falsly supposed ordinance then surely it is not to be doubted at all but that in a matter especially of such sacred importance he would neuer haue left vs at randome to deale therein as seemed good to our selues but in some other place else at the least he would haue inserted such certeine canons and rules as should more fuly haue serued for our orderly direction and guidance therein Howbeit neither in the epistle to the Romanes or Corinthians neither yet in any of those to Timothy or Titus where all church offices and officers are handled at lage doth he giue any one rule at all concerning the orderly practise of this your falsly supposed perpetuall ordinance and therefore the same is no such ordinance established by Christ. Besides that the apostle Peter hauing purposely laid open the perpetuall vagaries of satan to kill and deuour he maketh no mention at all of praier and fasting but onely of a strong faith to resist him withall As also the apostle Paul displaying purposely the compleate armour of christians against the power of the diuel whatsoeuer he speakes not a word of praier and fasting for the timely withstanding of any his fiery darts So then sith in all the canonicall scriptures there is neither commaundement nor canon for the timely fortification of any such new-found ordinance I wonder you blush not to braue out the matter as hitherto you haue done by pretending the authority of scriptures the testimony of fathers old and new the practise of the church in euery age yea and the good successe thereof to mannage the matter it selfe Exorcistes I could prooue the same in such sort as I say You could so I confesse if