all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
Synâ—ds and Classes and subject to their censures that is but a question of your owne begging and remaines for you to prove and denied of me The next thing you would know is the diference betweene excommâ—â—ication and rejeâ—â—ion and would seeme to make them both one To which I answer Titus had power to reject a person a but we doe not reade that he had power of himselfe to excommunicate that person A wicked man may be said to reject God when he rejecteth his Word So Saul rejected God 1 Sam. 15. 23. therefore God rejected him from being King vers. 26. but did he excommunicate God So the people of Israel rejected God 1 Sam. 8. 7. and 10. 19. Did they therefore excommunicate God Here Mr. Edwards you may see that Excommunication is more than rejection as it also plainely appeares by Pauls words 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. where he delivers unto them the forme of Excommunication in these words When ye are gathered together and my spirit in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that such a one by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ be delivered unto Satâ—an c. Here Mr. Edwards you may plainely see the forme of this part of the Lords house This you see Paul had determined before and also that Pauls spirit was together with the Church in the action doing yet Paul tooke not upon him that power of himselfe but committed the action to the Church who had the power of our Lord Iesus Christ as he himselfe testifieth which plainely proves that the Church had the power that Paul had not for though Paul was a good Counsellor yet he was no executioner in that action but as a member for his part Here Mr. Edwards you may see the difference betweene rejection and excommunication a man in rejecting the Law of God may be said to reject God and he that addes to or diminisheth from the Lawes of God rejects God in rejecting the counsell of God which injoynes him neither to adde nor diminish but you by pleading for your unknowne Synods and ungrounded dependencie reject the counsell of God and so doe all those that assist you in it The next thing you affirme is That this government of Independencie which I have proved to be Christs government overthroâ—es the Communion of Saints To which I answer This appeares to be contrary by that which hath beene said already as for example the difference betweene the Church of Antiochia and the Church of Ierusalem turned to good because they undertooke not the authority to determine the case themselves as hath beene said because it was against the members of the Church of Ierasalem and this increased union and communion in both Churches as we may plainely see for Peter communicated unto them what God had revealed unto him and Paul Barnabas declared what God had done by them Iames calls fromâ— backe to consider what Peter had declared and backes it with the Scripture manifesting how it agreed with the words of the Prophets as you may reade at large in Act. 15. Thus you may see what sweete Communion was betweene these Churches that were both Independant Now whereas you say 〈◊〉 be in a Christian Common-wealth or Nation I doe affirme it may stand with Christs Church in a Common-wealth as may plainely appeare in the three first Chapters of the Revelations which testifies that there were seven Churcâ—â—s in Asia and these seven Churches were compared to seven gâ—â—den Candlestickes b and every Candlesticke stood by it seâ—â— and held forth her owne light as appeares by those severall mâ—â—sages which were sent to those seven Churches for had they had a dependencie one upon another in respect of power then one message would have served unto them all and what sinne any of the Churches or Angels were guilty of would have been laid unto the charge of all the Churches and Angels but wee see it was otherwise As for instance there was none charged for suffering the woman Iezebel to teach the people to commit for nication and to eate things sacrificed to Idols but the Angell of Thyatria by this you may plainely see there was not one Angell set over them all nor one Synod oppointed to judge and correct them all which is the thing you labour for Yet it cannot be said that the Independancie of these seven Churches hindred their communion either with Christ their head or one with another neither was it any disturbance to the Common-wealth or Nation wherein they lived And here you cannot say that I have eyaded but have answered you directly to these your doubts and suppositions and to many of your â—ffs which have beene your spies sent out in this Scout And moreover I will answer all your many Reasons as I come to them though they be joyned in battle with these I meane your following Reasons against Toleration and also batter or drive backe your answers which you have made to the Six Reasons which you say be theirs and yet neither this Scout nor the joyned nor the subjoyned forces shall be able to discover what strength is on my side although they be formed by you in battle aray Now I have proved the Independant Government to be Christs Government I will also prove in my Answers to these your following Reasons that the Independant Congregations performe Christs publike worship and therefore ought to be tolerated and maintained in the practise thereof IN the beginning of your first Reason against Toleration you grant that the Scriptures speake mâ—ch for Toleration and bearing with one another in many things both in matters of opinion and practise and the Scriptures you quote are very pertinent to this purpose but alwayes provided they are to be understood as spoken properly to particular Congregations and not unto any whole Nation But to stand for the Toleration of the maintenance of Heresie and Schisme is not the Toleration that we plead for as farre as hath beene yet made knowne but rather your insinuation for I have declared unto you already in the driving backe of the first Scout of your Army That God hath provided a way and meanes to purge every Congregation of his from all such persons that doe offend whether it be in matters of Faith or Order Neither doe any that stand for Christian liberty condemne them for cruelty or that it is against charitie For if we compare the Church with one man or a few then it will easily appeare that the one doth out-weigh the other â—nd you say Calvin saith It is cruell mercy which preferres one man or a few before the Church To these words of Calvin I doe fully agree unto for they are of the same nature with my former Answers to your Reasons against Independancie where I have proved against you that the weight and power Ireth in the Church and that the Church is above the Ministers and that the Ministers have their power by the Church to exercise in the Church
and not the Church by the Ministers The next thing to be considered in this your Reason is your peremptory affirmation but grounded upon no Scripture namely That to set up Independant and separated Churches is a Schisme in it selfe and that it will make great disturbance in the Church both to the outward peace and to the faith and conscience of the people of the Kingdome Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe I deny and prove the contrary thus God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all Idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e and therefore it is no Schisme except you will make God the Author of Schisme this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs words Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to learne even to cease to doe evill But I hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson which is to learne to doe well but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements and to obey God rather then men Now Gods commands to his people is that they learne to know the forme of the house as I have told you before and all the Ordinances of the house and to doe them Ezek. 43. 11. but the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell amongst the rest are Doctrine Fellowship breaking of Bread and Prayer which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly in and are commended for their constancie in the same Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation though there were divers in one Nation and yet I hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation otherwise thâ—n Christ hath shewed shall ever be that the seed of the Serpent shall persecute the seede of the Woman for Gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves Now there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof By this you may see that Separation is not a Scisme but obedience to Gods Commandement And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law if that worship be not according to Gods Law is the Magistrates duty and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed Therefore the Magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship when hee hath power to command it for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill â—oers And therefore you did well when you admonished the Parliament in your Epistle to cast out of the way all stambling blockes and to breake downe all Images and Crucifixes and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 and remove the High places and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition So then you grant that much may be done as it seemeth by your speech and yet if there be not a full reformation even to the throwing downe of the High places it will prove a blemish to the reformers You say he that doth not forbid when he hath power he commands But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid by your owne ground they have or doe command But in the Protestation they have not forbidden Gods Worship which is according to his Word but they have Protested and have injoyned others so to doe to maintaine and â—â—â—end the Protestant Religion expressed in the Doctrine of the Church of England against all Popery and Popish Innovations within this Realme c. And in the Interpretation of their meaning of the said Oath they binde us neither to the â—â—t forme of Worship Discipline or Government nor any Rites or Ceremonies of the said Church of England Now if we must withstand Popery and Popish Innovations then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole Nation a Church both good and bad without separating the precious from the vile and also such Synods or Counsels that decree and make Lawes and impose them upon any Church to keepe having not the Word of God to warrant them for these are Popish Innovations and to be withstood by us according to our Oath And truely Mr. Edwards you might have asked the independant Ministers a question in private for you knew where to finde them and not have propounded so silly a question before the Parliament when there was none there to answer you Your Question is Whether it be fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe to make Churches To this I Answer It is fitter for well meaning Christians than for ill-meaning Christians for well-meaning Christians be the fittest on the earth to make Churches and to choose their Officers whether they be Taylors Felt-makers Button-makers Tent-makers Shepherds or Ploughmen or what honest Trade soever if they are well-meaning Christians but ill-meaning Priests are very unfit men to make Churches because what they build up with one hand they pull downe with the other Futuher you seeme to feare the sâ—reading of Heresies if there be not a biâ—drance of these Assemblies But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces for they are not men of so meane parts as you would make them but are able to divide the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done For Christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died Thus much for your first Reason IN your second Reason you say the Toleration desired will not helpe to beale the Schismes and Rents of your Church To which I answer that if your Church be not the Church of Christ it will not heale it indeede for though the Prophets would have healed Babel it could not be healed You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation and Government setled by Law It is very like so if it be not free from Innovations of Popery because they are sworne to the contrary But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes that the Government of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God To this I answer If you meane the Church of Englands Government established by the Canon Law I thinke it is out of doubt with the most for they that understand but little doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish and that is the reason as I conceive why so many refuse to conforme to it and if you feare that that will prove so great a division you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates to expell all such Government and to reject all such Synods and
you so void of true piety towards that Honourable House or judge you that House so void of common Reason being as they are indeede the very Eyes of the whole land the Eares of the whole land and the Tongue of the whole land yea the hand and power of the whole land being so as I conceive in my simplicity would you have them I say to be blinde of one eye and to looke upon the Petitions and complaints of some of the people of the land and not upon all would you have them so partiall would you have them also deafe of one â—are that they should not hearken to the cries and petitions and complaints of all the Kings subjects one as well as another would you have them also so defective in their tongue that they should not be for the praise of them that doe well as well as for the punishment of evill doers nay seeing they are called Gods * would you have their hands so shortned that they should not once stretch them forth to support and helpe the poore afflicted members of Jesus Christ Then indeede you would have them very unlike unto Moses even as unlike as your selves are unto Aaron Would you have this House to exercise their power upon persons before they have made due triall of the cause by hearing witnesses speake on both sides truely Mr. Edwards if you would as it appeareth plaine it is your minde then I will submit to the judgement of both the Houses of Parliament whether you be not a man void of common Reason for he is a foole that judgeth a matter before he know it And you are not onely void of Reason your selfe but you would have the Parliament to be like you for if the Parliament should judge a man before they heare his cause they would be like the Court at Lambeth which were used to sit in the high Priests Hall judgeing matters without due triall Further you say you are perswaded that it will never be said of this Parliament that they opened a doore for Toleration For Answer to this I must tell you that I conceive they may receive a Petition and yet not open a doore for Toleration I meane for such a Toleration as you here speake of for setting up Churches against Churches for that is not the Toleration that we pleade for but your evill conclusion And therefore you may pray if you will that that doore may be kept shut And we will pray also that all doores may be kept shut that will let any evills into the Kingdome in processe of time least that any succeeding generations should have cause to write in their Chronicles of this Parliament as it was written of Naaman the Syrian that is as you say it will be said of them but they granted a Toleration Moreover we desire nothing at their hands that may cast a darke shadow upon their glorious light But that which we desire is liberty of conscience to practise Gods true worship in the land wherein we were borne which will be no blemish to any Christian Magistrate to grant nor for any Counsell of state to establish And therefore you should not have concluded this your Discourse against independancie and against Toleration before you had offered it to the triall before some lawfull Committee chosen by the Parliament to heare both you and them and then if you could have maintained your Churche of England which you plead for with your Synods and Counsells Ceremonies and Booke-worship Canons and Sensures Citations Degradations and Excommunications with your Absolutions to be founded upon the substance of that Worship and Discipline which you say Calvin affirmeth is expressed in the Scriptures then you might with the more shew of honesty have admoninished the Parliament to have cast out their Petitions but till then you may lay your hand upon your mouth and never for shame affirme that the granting of Toleration unto us to worship God without molestation will be setting up Churches against Churches Neither ought you to have concluded against them before you had proved their way of worship to be contrary to the word of God or not to have footing in his word as yours hath not for except you had done this you have small cause to rejoyce in your thoughts in respect of the accounts that you are to give about this coutraversie for your contraversie can be conceived at the best to be but the contraversie that Paul had when he went unto Damascus which was a Contraversie against Christ * though Christ in his rich grace pardoned him when hee had smitten him downe and driven him out of himselfe and made him to confesse that he knew not Christ in these words where hee saith LORD WHO ART THOV and further acknowledged that he knew not the will of Christ by asking him with these words WHAT WILT THOV HAVE ME TO DOE thus you may see though the controversie was against Christ yet Paul was reconciled to God the Father by Iesus Christ the Sonne and endued with the holy Ghost which made him a Minister of the New Testament which all his humane learning could not doe And Paul might have boasted that he was stirred up by the Spirit of God against the way of Christ as you boast that you are stirred up by Gods Spirit against the way of Separation But that would not have justified Paul much lesse shall it justifie you for Paul did that hee did out of a zeale to maintaine the Law of God But yours is to maintaine the Law of Sinne even the Law of Sathan Paul persecuted those that he did conceive to be evill but you persecute those that you acknowledge good men and such as have beene active and famous for God And therefore you have no neede to boast of the Spirits enabling you all along and that above your owne strength as you declare for it may plainely appeare unto all men of understanding that it was the very spirit of delusion And therefore you may justly expect Censures and Reproaches as you say you doe because your way in this action was not pleasing to God But for my part instead of censuring you I would rather reprove you and admonish you rather than reproach you and pray that God might turne you And if God would be pleased to give you that reward of your labour which hee gave unto Paul even to strike you downe and to make you to heare his voyce and learne to know him and what he would have you to doe then it would turne much to the praise of God and to the comfort of your poore soule if you be a chosen vessell unto him which is the thing you pretend you aime at and then you shall be sure to gaine truth and love and peace and holinesse in all your after discourses when you shall speake with a new tongue and expresse the language of Canaan And now Mr. Edwards for conclusion of the whole I doe here affirme that if