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A69024 A replie to a relation, of the conference between William Laude and Mr. Fisher the Jesuite. By a witnesse of Jesus Christ Burton, Henry, 1578-1648. 1640 (1640) STC 4154; ESTC S104828 423,261 458

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so fit as his own Day of Rest which he hath Commanded to be sanctified weekly of us if we be his people and he the Lord our God who hath redeemed us in his holy and eternall Law and in which day we resting do partake and communicate of his holy and eternall rest begun here by Christ and consummate in heaven in that pangúrei solemne Generall Assembly and Congregation of the first borne written in heaven Heb. 12.23 And to conclude if the ten Commandements belong to us Christians under the Covenant of Grace then certainly the 4 th Commandement which commands to keep the Sabbath of the Lord our God which is the Lords day Now by this which hath been spoken you may examine how farre you and your Church of England have erred in the foundation that is in this and other fundamentall points of Faith at least if those Acts ●dicts and Books that have been published against the aforesaid Doctrines shal be avowed for the Doctrines of the Church of England as they are pressed And if with Rome you be thus fallen holy you are not by your own confession nor onely so but Hereticall yea more then that Infidel For in the same page you say If the Church can erre quite from the Foundation then she is nor Holy nor Church but becomes an Infidell Now we have proved that to erre in one or more though not in all fundamentall points of Faith is to fall quite off from the foundation But if you thus cease to be holy how are you the Church of Christ still as you say For holinesse is essentiall unto and so is of the Difinition of the true Church of Christ I beleeve the Holy Catholicke Church And so of every particular Church if it be a true member of the true Catholicke it is holy For Eadem est ratio totius partium If the whole be holy so every member and part But the whole true Church is holy For 't is Christs body mysticall whereof he the Head he the root and we the Branches and if the root be holy so are the branches as the Apostle saith And he saith againe The Temple of God is holy which Temple ye are And I say Christ being the Head and the Church h●s body the spirit of holinesse and sanctification flows down from the Head to all the m●mbers as the Oyle powred on Aarons head went down to the skirts of his clothing which was a type of the holy anoynting oyle of Christs spirit powred on him which he communicates to all the members of his misticall body even as a mans head communicates of Animal spirits of motion to all the parts of his body as we touched before Except with Bellarmine you will have a dead member to be a true member Indeed a dead member of a dead body is a true member of that body And certainly if a Church cease to be holy it ceaseth to be a Church of Christ any more● But I pray you what should move you to say thus Though the Church ceaseth to be Holy yet ceaseth not to be a Church of Christ. You have it not from the Schoole of Divinity not scarce can you rake it out of the puddle of the Iesuites themselves But haply you might suspect that the Church of Rome might be proved to be fallen quite from the Foundation as hath been already proved before and therfore your Charity would provide one refuge for it that though thus she ceaseth to be holy yet not to be a true Church still But you may doe well to study this point a little better how to make it good How a Church may cease to be Holy becoming Hereticall and yet be a Church of Christ still L. p. 141.142 Those Errors that are dyed in Graine cannot consist with holinesse of which Faith in Christ is the very Foundation And therfore if we will keep up our Creed the whole Militant Church must still be holy P. This confirmes what before I concluded of the Church of Rome as no Church of Chhist because by your own verdict not holy For her Errors and that in the fundamentall points of Faith are all dyed in graine so as they will never change colour nor looke of another hue For both they are of no small antiquity and since their first hatching they have been by sundry Councels confirmed and at last most irrefragably in the Councel of Trent as hath been shewed For as those things which you elswhere instance Worship of Images first erected in the 2 d Councel of Nice the seventh Generall Transubstantiation first Decreed in the Councel of Laterian under Innocent the third and the taking away of the Cup in the Sacrament first decreed in the Councel of Constance so the Title of Antichrist of Vniversall Bishop and Head of the Church obtained first by Boniface 3. above a thousand yeares agoe with many or most or all the Rest of Popery have been ever since their severall erections upon all occasions more and more ratified never any corrected and by generall practice upheld and against all opposition and conviction stiffly maintained Are they not dyed in graine then And if so you confesse they consist not of holinesse But say you if we will keep up our Creed the whole Melitant Church must still be Holy Here you enterfere againe For notwithstanding all that is said or I suppose can be said you will have the Church of Rome to be holy still as being a member of the Church Militant in despight of the Pope But let her be a member of your Church Militant is she therfore holy Say not you your Church Militant may fall into errors so as to cease to be holy And if the Church of Rome hath thus fallen hath she not for her part ceased to be holy But not if she keep up the Creed What call you that To hold the letter of the Creed and to deny the Faith of it so we have proved before She hath lost the Faith of Christ the foundation of Holinesse Ergo she hath lost Holinesse Ergo lost the Essence of a Church Ergo she is not in the compasse of your Creed I beleeve the Holy Catholicke Church L. p. 142. I say it and most true it is That it was ill done if those who ere they were that made the seperation P. It should be most true if you doe but say it Yet we find not all to be most true you say How true this is I know not yet Let us here I remember a little before you performed a thanklesse office for the Protestants in making an Apology for them as not the first in the fault of this seperation Which I answered And here you put the fault on those that made the seperation who ere they were which might be aswell the Protestants as the Papists But speake out L. p. 145. For my part I am of the same opinion for the continuing of the Schisme that I was for
But wicked is a Generall word and perhaps it hath no reference here to you in particular Yes certainly you in particular the Holy Ghost doth in this Psalme point you out as it were with the finger How Note but the Title of the Psalme A Psalme for the Sabbath day But it may seem strange that David should heare speake of the wicked and of their flourishing estate What coherence hath this with the Sabbath day Surely hereby the Spirit of Prophesie notes out unto us a speciall time or age of the Church wherein ungodly men should most notoriously oppose themselves against the sanctification of the Sabbath day and wherein they should extraordinarily flourish and prosper even as the green and goodly bladed Grasse that groweth on high upon the house tops but in that their flourishing estate they should sodainly perish And of all other times and ages of the Church ever was this Prophesie so extraordinarily and remarkably verefied for ungodly and desperate offenders in this kind as in this present age and especially in the Church of England now since your springing up and flourishing upon the toppes of Canterbury Palace For shew us any age wherein the sanctification of the Sabbath or Lords day was by publike Edict dispensed with and by sundry Printed Books cryed down and you shal be excused from being of those men whom the Holy Ghost notes out here for wicked and ungodly But you cannot Therefore this Psalme for the Sabbath day speaks of you in speciall as being a professed enemy of the sanctification of the Sabbath and so of all true holinesse and yet you doe so flourish and prosper in this your wicked and impious opposition to all Godlinesse as never any have done more nor so much in mans memory But what 's the issue of this These wicked enemies of Godlinesse and of the sanctification of the Sabbath in speciall shal be destroyed for ever But when Even then when they are in the top of their flourishing estate But how shall we know this First GOD hath said it and therefore 't is sure enough and Secondly this their flourishing estate is an immediate both signe and cause of their utter ruine But doth your Lordship beleeve that this shall ever be verefied of you Why should you not For are not you the great Instrument and Agent in advancing the Edict for Sports to its full execution And why should you not then beleeve the rest that in the height of your present prosperity you shal be destroyed for evermore And why doe you not beleeve it For David saith A brutish man knoweth not neither doth a foole understand this to wit when he wicked spring as the Grasse and when all the workers of iniquity doe flourish it is that they shal be destroyed for ever And doe you not know do you not understand this Then you fill up the Prophesie to the full as verefied of you wholly L. p. ibid. But on the other side GOD forbid too that your Majesty should let both Lawes and Discipline sleep for feare of the name of Persecution and in the meane time Let Master Fisher and his fellowes angle in all parts of your Dominions for your Subjects c. P. Here I hope you speake it seriously GOD forbid At least in part For you name two things Lawes and Discipline Lawes against Jesuites as Fisher and his fellowes And herein it may be questioned perhaps by some whether you speake seriously GOD forbid that such Lawes should sleep For you know they have slept so long a time and so soundly that I feare your God forbid will not prove loud enough to awaken them And as for Discipline that 's for your Puritans And for that you need not trouble the King to breake his sleep your selfe I trow can look well enough to the keeping of that awake For in truth it can take no rest for you And therefore neither in this respect need your God forbid to be serious as being altogether superfluous Onely the best use that you can make of it as you know it better then I can tell you is is that your God forbid here may prove so happy for the vindicating of your Reputation as to perswade the misdeming world that if the Lawes against Iesuites do sleep you are not the cause of it who ever els God forbid and if Dissipline be over wakefull and too quick and exceed all bounds as having no Law to confine it alas you are not the Man God forbid For wake or sleep your God forbid your Ma●esty should let them sleep argueth plainly that the keeping of the Discipline awake is his part whose it is not to let them sleep 'T is well my Lord you have so strong a back to lay your burthens upon as is touched before especially when they presse too hard upon you as in the clamours and outcryes against your outrages But what Doe you come here with your God forbid your Majesty should suffer Discipline to sleep when but a little before and almost with the same breath you said God forbid I should ever offer to perswade a Persecution in any kind Do we not know what the awakening of Discipline is Is it not like the awakening of a sleeping Lyon Doth not then the rigorous and incessant restlesse execution of Discipline so as it can never be suffered once to sleep trench upon Persecution at least as neare as you say at after sundry errours of the Church of Rome come neare the overthrowing of the Foundation or as their worshiping of Images comes too neare heathenish Idolatry But in your Close you apply your God forbid onely against the Jesuites That 's well that you presse it not with your Discipline upon your Puritans as you do the Lawes against Romes Fisher-men And I note here that for Jesuites you have Laws but for Puritans you have Discipline without Lawes or as it stands in opposition to Lawes But what followeth Alas what do I find saluting me in the very front of your next page L. p. 12. Now as I would humbly beseech your Majesty to keep a serious watch upon these Fisher-men which pretend S. Peters but fish not with his net so I would not have you neglect an other sort of Anglers in a shallower water P. Yet your words seem to import a greater zeale in you against the Iesuites then against your Puritans For touching those you humbly beseech but concerning these you onely would have And yet what you onely would have is somwhat and perhaps as prevailing especially when you set it on in private as your open humbly beseeching Yea being Primate of all England or Patriarcha Alterius Orbis I know not whether you may speake it in the Popes stile Volumus jubemus as much to say I would have and then by this reckoning it would surmount I humbly beseech But what 's this other sort of Fishers that you would not have his Majesty to neglect Or what these Anglers