through Presbytery and Independency will soone gird themselves to battle in those Notions and we shall never want enough of Presbytery and Independency till they undo us after our own fashion and if they cannot kill us as Cavaliers and Malignants in this new way they may kill us as Presbyters and Independents And surely they will have so much Iesuitisme as never to let us starve for Hereticks and Schismaticks the Iesuits run commonly over to the Lutherans and raile there against Calvinists and so they never want matter for division in Germany it is the great design of Conclaves and Popish Councels to practice upon States in their own religions and customes and to turne us back into Popery by being Protestants amongst us and to raise up new troubles by changing the old and by transfiguring their enmity Satan himselfe can be an Angell of light when he cannot passe as a power of darknesse and where works he thus but in the children of disobedience And Brethren let us not let our enemies in at back-doâ—res of Presbytery and Independency let us not undo our selves when God would save us let us see that these workings are but the old designe in a new Forme The last reason is People are not wholly undeceived in their present Ministers And to that end consider 1. That these Ministers who tell them thus and preach thus are neither as Aaron was nor as the Prophets were nor as the Apostles were nor have such an infallible gift nor spirit of discerning so as their words and Sermons are no more to be beleeved then the words of the Scripture proves and people are to trie all and to trie spirits and so trust and now friends not beleeve Sermons too suddenly because their Sermons are not very Scripture but interpretation to their light and light may be darkned with carnall reason and interest 2. That these Ministers who preach so for Presbytery through bloud and persecution now did but a few yeers since preach as confidently for the Service-book for Bishops or against the Presbytery our Brethren of Scotland 3. That these Ministers that preach nothing but Presbitery Government and Divine Right yet never tryed it in their lives nor lived in the experience of it but have it by report and by Idaea or modell or Landship from other Countreys and some specious Scriptures 4. That these Ministers who would presse the Covenant against Popery and Episcopacy root and branch yet will be content though Bishops be unlawfull to say the Bishops hands which ordained them are not and that Bishops could make them Ministers of Christ though they were Antichrist themselves and that Episcopacy could make a lawfull Ministery 5. That these Ministers who preached against Deanes and Archdeacons and Prelates as unlawfull can be content very well with their maintenance their tythes are not popish nor the profits nor revenues are not against Covenant people look a little into these men that hold there is no popery in any thing that makes them rich or maintaines them is this the doctrine of the crosse and selfe-deniall 6. That these Ministers who preached against Pluralities yet now a mastership of a Colledge and a great Living or two of some hundreds a yeer with Chaplainships as they commonly have and two or three great Lectures in conjunction with a great Living is not Plurality nor must be accounted so Nay for a Presbyter to have two livings is no plurality now but for a Prelate to have them is undoubtedly so By the same tenure the Prelates formerly lived at Court and in Lords houses and held Livings as they in the Assembly now by their attendance there 7. That these Ministers who pretend to so much light and certainty of truth yet after two yeers reasoning and proofe have not been able to prove their way of Government from Scripture so as there are so many excellent Quaeries propounded from the Honourable Parliament which lye unanswered unlesse the Ministers intend to resolve the Parliament some other way by making the tumults more and their answers lesse for their books and Sermons speak no lesse Was ever Reformation but where the Red Dragon is in the Pulpit preached for in so much bloud and I pray friends are all things so true as they tell you our greatest and wisest Counsell can see no such thing in it yet and since you expect your Government from the Parliament I pray go not before them in your judgements but stay and examine as they do 8. That the mystery of the Popish Ministery hath ever been to lead the people and stir up the people either by merit or martyrdome or ministery and therefore the poore soules of England had given away all their Lands once to Monks and Friers and would all fight for the Holy Land and the Kings and Princes their power to do with as they pleased and all was as the Priest said for Religion too all as the Holy Church said and now merit martyrdome and ministery carry all before them yet in some measure though not in so much England hath seen so much as to take much of their lands again and Tythes again from the Ministery and the Parliaments have seen so much as a little to debate Religion with the Synods and this Parliament hath seen more by how much they have reasoned disputed quaeried with their Ministers When did ever England see so much liberty before when durst Parliaments talke with their Ministers till now And friends let not the old Popish things of merit martyrdome and ministery carry us away as they did I remember an excellent saying reported of Generall Lesley to our Nobles and Gâ—ntry when they were ready to fight for Bishops to this purpose Shall we lose our bloud for so many fat Swingers And I pray are not these the Sons of the Swingers according to ordination ordained and called by Bishops Is our bloud too good for Bishops and not for Presbyters as some think 9. That these Ministers who seem to close with those whom they so lately called and preached against as Malignants and Cavaliers yet cannot love them or use them otherwise then in designe to help up with the Government and then leave them und persecute them under the same Notion with us as Hereticks using them now as the Israelites did the Gibeonites as hewers of wood and drawers of water and then what will become of these poore soules who having helped up the Presbyters into the roome of the Bishops to be sure they shall neither have Common-prayer-book nor Surplice nor Bishops nor Sacraments for the Directory shall keep out the Common-Prayer-book and Presbyters shall keepe out Bishops and Elders shall keep out all Communicants of such and such sins and Vniformity will keep out Conformity And if ye hope for better by the bustle and differences and sideings Issues and successe are in Gods hand not in ours Ye may know when ye begin but not when ye end and they will be first in
a Kingdom of Israell nor a Church of Israel though too many of you have preached the Old Testament more then the New for what advantage let the Magistrate judge To the Seventeenth That he may in time say as much of justice living upon voyces in Assemblies as of Truth and so to be a Mystery of Iniquity These are but insinuations to the Magistrate and ghosts of Jealousie which you raise And to put an end to such feares when I make Church and State Magistrate and Ministery Gospell-laws and Civill to be both one then challenge me for that opinion But I have learned that Christs Kingdom and the worlds have a severall Policy and that may be a Law in the one which is not to the other And now is it your Inference or my Principle wrongs the Magistrate An Answer in few words to Master Edwards his second Part of the GANGRENA And to the namelesse Author of a Book called An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh MAster Edwards the difference betwixt ye both is this You set your name to more then you know as hath been well witnessed and this man dare set his name to nothing You sin without shame and your Partner is ashamed of what he doth Sin is too powerfull in you against Truth because you shew your selfe and Truth is too powerfull for him because he hides himselfe Master Edwards I shall answer you in these few words but first The Lord rebuke thee even the Lord. 1. If the Image of Christ be in any of those you so persecute how can you answer it to Jesus Christ to cast any dirt on the glory of him 2. If God be in any of those you are so much an enemy to how will you answer it to fight against God any thing of God 3. If any of those be the children of the heavenly Father or the little ones of the Gospell It were better that a milstone were hanged about your neck and you cast into the Sea So Christ tels you 4. What is it to sin against the holy Ghost but to hate the Light once known or to blaspheme the works of the Spirit And you once professed to me you had almost been one of those whom you call Hereticks Oh take heed of that sinâ— there is no more Sacrifice for that And how if the works of those you so judge be wrought in the Spirit shall you ever be forgiven in this world or in that to come Read the words and tremble 5. Doth not the Word bid you restore those that are fallen in meeknesse and tell your brother his fault first betwixt you and him And you never yet came to any of them that I could heare of but print proclaime tell stories to the world of all you heare see know Is Christ in this Spirit Is the Gospell in this straine Will this be peace to your soule hereafter 6. Solomon tels us that a man may seem faire in his own tale till his neighbour search out the matter And how dare you then take all things at one hand and not at anothers How dare you have one eare open for complaints and faults and crimes and the other shut against all defence Did ever Justice do this Did you ever call for their accusers face to face Did you ever traverse Testimonies on both sides And dare you judge thus and condemne thus Shall not the Judge of Heaven and Earth make you tremble for this Injustice Shall he not make Inquisition upon your soule for this bloud 7. Is it any other ground or bottome you stand on in this your way of accusing the Brethren but Paul you say named some and the Fathers named some so and Calvin as you told me the other day when I met you And was there ever crime without some Scripture or shadow of the Word Did not Canterbury on the Scaffold preach a Sermon of as much Scripture and Story for what he did as you can for yours if you should ever preach there He thought ye all Hereticks as you do us he thought he might persecute you as you do us and he had a Word from John Baptist for his manner of death and a Word from the Red sea and Israelites for his death and enemies and a Word from Paul for his Changing Laws and Customes and for his crime of Popery he had a Word fâ—â—m them that feared the Romanes would come and take away their Government Thus Satan and Selfe can paint the worst kind of sin Poore soule Is your conscience no better seated then in such aâ—ery apparitious of Scripture and failings of Fathers Do not you heare the Prayers of those soules you wound pleading with God against your sin Are you not in the gall of bitternesse and bond of iniquityâ— Is not your spirit yet flying when none pursues you Are not your dreames of the everlasting burning and of the worme that never dies Have you no gnawings no flashings no lightnings I am afraid of you Your face and complexion shewes a most sadly parched burnt and withered spirit Methought when I called to you the other day in the street and challenged you for your unanswerable Crime against me in the third page of the last Gangrena in setting my name against all the Heresies you reckon which your own soule and the world can witnesse to be none of mine and your own confession to me when I challenged you How were you troubled in spirit and language Your sin was as I thought upon you scourging you checking you as I spoke I told you at parting I hoped we should overcome you by prayer I beleeve we shall pray you either into Repentance or Shame or Judgement â—re we have done with you But Oh might it be Repentance rather till Master Edwards smite upon his thigh and say what have I done For your Anagram upon my name you do but fulfill the Prophesie They shall cast out your name as evill for the Son of mans sake And for your Book of Jeeres and Stories of your Brethren Poore man It will not be long musick in your eares at this rate of sinning For the namelesse Author and his After-reckoning let all such men be doing for me Let them raile revile blaspheme call Hereticks It is enough to me that they write such vanity they dare not own And now let me tell ye both and all such Pensioners to the great accuser of the Brethren Fill up the measure of your iniquity if ye will needs perish whether we will or no. I hope I rest in the bosome of Christ with others of my Brethren raile persecute do your worst I challenge all the powers of hell that set ye on work while Christ is made unto me righteousnesse wisedome sanctification and redemption And I must tell ye further that since any of the light and glory of Christ dawned upon me since first I saw that Morning-Star of righteousnesse any of the brightnesse of the glory in my heart that heart of mine which
Some Drops of the Viall powred OUT IN A SEASON WHEN IT IS Neither Night nor Day OR Some Discoveries of Iesus Christ His Glory in severall BOOKS viz. 1. The New Quaere 2. The Opening of the Vindication 3. The Smoake in the Temple 4. The Groanes for liberty 5. The Divine Right of Presbytery discussed 6. An End of One Controversie 7. Reasons for Vnity Peace and Love And Shadowes flying away All which Books are here reprinted in one Booke entirely after the severall Impressions of them and presented to the Reader 1 King 19. 11 12. But the Lord was not in the Winde and after the Winde an Earthquake but the Lord was not in the Earthquake and after the Earthquake a fire but the Lord was not in the fire and after the fire a still small voice and the Lord was in that By John Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. TO HIS EXCELLENCY Sir THOMAS FAIRFAX Generall of all the Forccs raised for the PARLIAMENT Right Honourable THe severall pieces thus rallied were never writ in my own power or appointment but I had commonly some juncture of Providence and something of a Spirit not my own upon me for I observed I could not write when I would my Springes were not in me nor could I end when I would till I had finished this Testimony and for something of God here I am sure there is enough of man of my selfe Thus is Gods appearing while we are in the Body he was in Christs which had no sin but he is not so in ours which are full of sin I have some few things to say and they ars things of duty from me and of truth to you that God hath filled the story of your life with himselfe with his Power Wisdome and Love and all that he may be your fulnesse and that you would glory in the Lord Let me remind you how you have seen him from Leedes to Bradfoorth to Wetherby to York to Hull even from Yorkeshire to Lincolneshire from thence to Naseby and so through the Conquest of Cities Towns Castles through so much almost as a Kingdom comes to And now after all this enter into your rest even the love of God the Son of God and there refresh your selfe in his light in his glory in the bosome of his love there are pleasures for evermore this is a piece of your coursest worke to beare the Sword for him who is the Power of God upon Earth for the punishment of evill doers in the world the more glorious worke is your Spirituall where Principalities and Rulers and Spirituall wickednesse in high places flesh and bloud are all against you and yet you above them all in him through whom you are more than Conquerour even him that loved you Sir Let it be not your busines only to Conquer as a man but as a Saint not as a Souldier but as a Christian not in the spirit of man but of God Let not a sin a lust a temptation stand more before you in the body then an enemy in the field gird on your spirituall Armour your Shield of faith your brestplate of righteousnesse your Sword of the Spirit your Helmet of Salvation and put on your white lining which is the righteousnesse of the Saints and follow him who rides on the white Horse in a vesture dipt in the bloud of his sufferings whose name is the Word of God and tell me if ever there was Glory like unto this Glory I cannot reckon the mighty men of valour in the world any thing but a worldly glory which if it dyed not with them or some ages after them yet can live no longer than the life of the world all these things are perishing but to be a man of the holy Spirit a man borne of God a man that wars not after the flesh a man of the Kingdom of God as well as of England Thus you shall live beyond time and age and men and the world gathered up into the life which is Eternall and was with the Father Sir Your dwelling now is much in the shadow of death and amongst the Graves and therefore so live in Christ your life that you may have one life more then men can kill men can only kill the man not the Christian. Sir I will not praise you but blesse God for you and his Image in you this will make great men love God and not themselves to speake of them as his not as their own Now Sir so warre that you may be still a man of peace in the midst of battell and of compassions in the midst of sufferings never wearing your Laurell without some Olive that all may know when you act as a Magistrate and as your selfe when you act from power or when from love from Justice or when from mercy So love as you may love God and Christ in men more then men and the Spirit in any more then the Forme either of Presbytery or Independency Thus Brethren who can now scarcely love one another because of that shall love you and shall learne to love one another from you Noble Sir Your humble servant IOHN SALTMARSH A New Quaere At this time seasonably to be considered as we tender the advancement of TRVTH PEACE Viz. Whether it be fit according to the Principles of true Religion and State to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdome hastily or not and with the Power commonly desired in the hands of the Ministers By IOHN SALTMARSH Preacher of the Word at Brasteed in Kent 2 Cor. 10. 8. Our authority which the Lord hath given for Instruction and not for destruction LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-End of S. PAULS 1646. A Quaere Whether it be â—it according to the Principles of true Religion and State to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdom hastily or not and with the Power commonly desired in the hands of the Ministers _1 THe Rules laid down in the Word for practicall Obedience are these in part Let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind Rom. 14. 5. ver 23. and whatsoever is not of faith is sin Now the setling of any Government upon a people who are yet generally untaught in the nature and grounds of it is to put upon the people the practice of that wherein it is impossible they can be fully perswaded in their minds and so either on a necessity of sin or misery 2 There is great danger of bringing people under a Popish implicite Obedience by forcing on a practice of that which they scarce know or know but in part And this is against the Nationall Covenant to side with any Principles of Popery And we know it by experience that the people have been ever devoted to any thing the State sets up all the disputes or conscience of the common people usually ending in this Whether it
remain unsatisfied they are not to be put upon his Dilemma of sin or misery or to be ruled with the rod but meeknesse 2 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Because the ignorance of the people generally which he would have for a reason to suspend it ought to be rather a reason for expedition that they may practically know it for while it is unknown it is slandered which might have been more amiable Because his two Texts make not only against the suspending for a time but for ever I wish he would preach such Texts as these to his people â— Thes 5. 12 13. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 17. Reply To your first It belongs not to the people c. It seems then the people must be kept out from all intermedling But I would have the people mark well what kind of Government that is that sits upon the waters or people I am sure Christ's Government takes in the people and being once in a Church-way they lose their old capacity for a new and are raised up from People to Brethren Act. 15. It is a worthy saying of Master Goodwyn and Master Nye That the Clergie got the golden ball of Government amongst them and I censure it is not much mended in the Presbytery But you say The people must be instructed that is they must only know that they must obey But they are called and consulted with and owned as the Scripture holds forth where ever there is any Church spoken of But what though instructed They are only to be instructed and taught that this is the Government to which they must submit So the people under Popery Prelacy c. were instructed with that limitation and restriction But shall they be thus instructed and taught in it People here is a Government which to some of us seemeth to be a Government according to the Word take it and examine it if you be so perswaded and that the Word holds it forth clearly embrace it if not do not obey anything in blind and implicite obedience This were faire dealing with Conscience thus the Churches of Christ had their Government among them To that of the peoples compliancy you speak on it is not my work here to dispute the Interests of Elders and People distinctly but to make answer that the complyancy and submission which are the duties you set out for the people are such as they may easily see the Interest you allow them viz. an Interest of compliance only and submission or obedience to what is done already not any liberty to examine and refuse And when people are instructed still your work remaines to prove your Presbytery over Congregations or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church which may upon the Presbytery more justly be recriminated then where you do so often recriminate upon gathered Churches And me thinks to me it is unreasonable to taxe any for church-gathering when your very Presbytery is maintained by such a kind of principle What is your Classicall your Provinciall your Nationall Presbytery but a Church gathered out of the rest call it a virtuall or representative or what you please For that of Meeknesse how meek it will prove and how meekly they shall be dealt with under it we are not to judge by any promises of Meeknesse but by Principles Are the Principles such as naturally bring forth Meeknesse or rather such as invest the Ministers and Elders with a power supreame and of dominion But what if such as your self and some other godly meek of your Way may propound nothing but waies of meeknesse to your selves Can you undertake to secure the people for hereafter and for all of the Way and for the Way in its own nature There are things of meek appearances as the Presbytery may be yet prove not so The Lamb in the Revelation had two horns though a Lamb. Hazael could say Am I a dog that thou shouldest think so harshly of me that I should kill the children in the womb 2 King 8 He as little suspected his own cruelty which the Prophet foresaw in his nature would come to passe as you do in your Presbytery which some seeing into the nature of it cannot but prophesie accordingly You know Episcopacy began in meeknesse and Bishops were brought in first for good and for Peace But how proved they Tyranny had ever a countenance of Meeknesse and Love till it got seated in the Throne So Absolon was very faire spoken in the Gate but how was he in the Throne For that of my Dilemma of sin and misery which you say people shall not be put upon it may be some in your or another Classis may find more meeknesse a spirit of more love and ingenuity But what is this to the nature of the Government that some in it are well natured And for that of sin and misery surely if the Presbytery be set on with power many a one will be in that snare partly in feare and partly in an easie complyancy For there are whole Parishes and Counties of this constitution And you your self say The wilfully weak must have the rod. And who will this be Such as are so in the judgement and interpretation of the Classis or how I would this were well cleared And for your Scriptures of 1 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Shall I come to you with a rod c. and in meeknesse instructing c. These are full Scriptures for ordering any Church government These are good Laws but then men must be rightly in Commission for ruling by them and people rightly ordered and disposed for such rules as in all other Laws and Kingdoms But what is this to your purpose till your Government appeare to be all Christs To that of the ignorance of the people which you would have for a reason of expedition rather then susponsion that they may practically know it I answer In practicall godlinesse the Scripture-way is not so Things must first be known before practically known or else the obedience can be but mixt blind and Popish Who can practically obey taking practically in a Scripture-sense that is with knowledge till they know and be perswaded Indeed in things civill c or morall practice may bring in knowledge habits may be acquiâ—ed and gotten by Acts a man may grow temperate by practising temperance and civilly obedient practising civill obedience But it is not so in Spirituals there habits go before acts spirituall infusions before practices And for the amiablenesse of it look into other Reformed Kingdoms and see what power of godlinesse is there by reason of it Do we not see the huge bodies of Nations very sinfull corrupt formall For Scotland our Brethrens preaching and watchfulnesse it may be more powerfull in a Reformation upon them then their Government And further I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforme the outward man So may a meer prudentiall Government a meer civill Government if
sincerely executed The Romans had a very moral people under their Yoke when their laws were well executed Prelacy and Bishops had a Government which was Antichristian yet by an exact execution could chastise the outward man in some measure For your other reason That my Texts make against not only the suspending for a time but for ever I answer It is true Principles and circumstances considered For if neither the Government be Christs nor the people Nationally a Church when can you settle it And if there be no Gospell-promises that people shall fall in so nationally as the Iews did excepting some that concerne the world in general as Isai 49. 22. then how or when will you settle or what will you settle or upon whom And for the Texts you commend to me for preaching 1 Thes 5. 12. c. they all concern peoples obedience to their Elders and Rulers they are very materiall and pertinent to that And I shall in requitall commend some other backe to you as those of not lording it over the Heritage Against preeminence as helpers of your faith of service and ministery We are your servants we entreat you and beseech you not seeking our own things not for filthy lusre but of a ready mind c. We must consider Scripture must be taken in the wholenesse and entirenesse of it and we must not only mind people of their obedience but Elders and Ministers of their service duty Ministery humility self-deniall c. And thus in a just distribution deale out both to Ministers and people their measure Master Ley's Resolution page 12. Strange that he should plead for a delay in establishing of Reformation from the Covenant wherein we are bound to endeavour it sincerely really c. and more strange under the title of Popery too which in the next Article of Popery is disavowed Reply Not so strange as you make it for we are covenanted to endeavour a setting up the Government not a Government that is as it is expounded in the Article the Government or Reformation according to the Word of God c. not a Government or Reformation of any other sort So as I plead for a delay only in setting up a Discipline not the Discipline or more plainly that the Discipline be such that the covenanters may not violate that Article wherein they are bound to do every thing according to the Word and so prove unfaithfull in their covenant while they are most zealous for it There was such a kind of mistake in the Jews who would have stoned the Lord of the Sabbath in zeale to the Sabbath and following after righteousnesse yet did not attain to the righteousnesse of God And for the title of Popery which I put upon such obedience which you say cannot be because discovered in the next Article of the Covenant I answer The Popery is not in the covenant but in the Interpretations upon it and the mistaken practice of it which is the thing I only aver O! How soon may we be Popish under a Covenant against it What are the maintenance of Ministers by Tythes Jewish and Popish undeniably and yet no notice of this at all I had as great a Tythe once as another but I could not hold it so neither by Covenant nor Gospell Nor do I taxe the Parliament but those who are betrusted to commend Spirituall grievances to their Senate c. Brethren let us lay down these grievances Countries and Famalies are burdened Let not the Ministers have their hooks abroad in every thing of the peoples like Elies sons We know the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Netherlands take their Tythes to maintain their wars and will not let their preachers live by decimation bur by pension And methinks you that professe ingenuity should be so candid to distinguish where you see I distinguish and not to force on constructions of this nature which neither any thing of mine nor the Covenant will beare And for what you say concerning the composers and penners of the Covenant I am willingly silent I would not aggravate any thing against a Brother as you are which might be only a failing in your Pen. Master Ley's Resolution pag. 12 13. For that he saith of peoples implicite obedience c. of their being devoted to any thing the State sets up by Statutes cannot be for these reasons Because as in the former Reason Instruction must go before Because for that of their being devoted it makes against setting up Doctrine as well as Discipline and Authority of Parliament as well as Authority of Ministery They not Ministers make Statutes Reply To your first That instructions must go before I have answered to this before as you expounded it before One word more will suffice What kind of instruction is it you mean but authoritative compulsive instruction such as the Schoolmasters even your own instance and here most pertinent who teaches and whips every one of those that will not understand as well as he Something an unreasonable way of correction in matters of pure beleefe and conscience and best amongst boys as your instance implies Men of Scripture-consciences cannot beare it And for that you say it makes against Doctrine as well as Discipline Yea in some sort it is granted for neither Doctrine nor Discipline ought to be forced but in a Gospell-way And for that you say it makes against the Parliament because they make Statutes I answer Nothing makes against a Legislative power which reduces it to ruder and clearer and free Principles And thus the Parliament very justly argues in all their Remonstrances touching the King while they go about to reduce him to his just Rights from those exorbitances he suffers himselfe to be brought into For instance He that wishes the Parliament might only proceed in a way not grieving the Spirit nor hazzarding the persecution or Truth nor oppressing any Gospell-principle to which they are covenanted not keeping on in any sin of former Parliaments of severe imposing in matters of Religion so controvertible Is not he I say that so wishes a better friend to Parliaments Laws and Statutes then those of contrary Principles Nay I must professe that to me that very one Article of Reforming to the Word of God most providentially inserted is an Article of Caution both against imposing and punishing lest through want of a cleare discerning we be found violaters of that we covenant to maintain and ought to be sadly considered by all Master Ley's Resolution page 12 13. His second reason of experience That the speedy setling c. takes little root but in the outward man c. concluding pathetically Why do not daies speak and multitude of years teach knowledge In answer 1. That the fault was not in over-speedy setling but in the choyce of a wrong Government 2. Because the Doctrine goeth on with Discipline and so the power of the Word may go deep into the conscience as a Schoolmaster who teaches and corrects 3.
acknowledge and yet that there is a Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Presbytery which are but Prudentiall and humane or mixed Judicatures according to such a distinction and yet are allowed by them a Power Supreme and coercive to the Divine Right of the Congregationall Presbytery which is the first and immediate subject of the Divine Right of Presbytery as they themselves acknowledge And now whether doe not their owne principles controll that pretended Divine Right they plead for and set up a Presbytery of Charity and Prudence over the Presbytery in the particular Congregation which they say is only of Divine Right 4. How can that Presbytery whose constitution is so questionable challenge such a Divine Right As first their Presbyters or first constituting Principles are ordained by a questionable power viz. that of Bishops Their Ruling-Elders by a power as questionable viz. by a Rule or Ordinance of Parliament prudentiall for triall for election because of the generall corruption in this Kingdome both in Ministers and people not by that very Apostolicall Scripture-Rule or Institution of Jesus Christ Their Congregations Parishionall and of politick constitution not Congregationall according to Scripture Their way of constituting this present Presbytery extraordinary by such an Assembly without precept or example for such a Way in the whole New Testament from whence the whole Order of that dispensation ought to be framed and not from the Law or Old Testament or some cases of necessity in the State or Church of Israel by way of Analogy as they say in their Modell to the Parliament The Primitive Elders and Apostles were qualified immediately from the Spirit with gifts proper to such a Ministration which these Presbyters and Elders being not but most by gifts and habits of Art and Science acquired by industry therefore these present Presbyters cannot challenge the same power for Church-Censures without the same Spirit gifting them and anointing them to such a power and administration in the Church but ought to be content meerly with a mixed and partly prudentiall power because of the mixture of their anointing and gifts if they will needs have such a Government set up for Christ's which is not all Christs and most of that all very questionable whether of Christ or no. For all their proofs alleadged from Scripture for the Presbytery by Divine Right or of such Presbyters as were ordained either by Christ himself as the Apostles or by a power from the Apostles or from such who in that power received from the Apostles did ordaine or by a power in the Church or Congregation preceding such a power and accompanying such a power Now this present Presbytery can neither make it selfe appeare to be so purely ordained nor have they the Church or Congregationall power so preceding or accompanying such an Ordination nor is that act of Imposition of hands by which their present Presbyters stand Ministers a meere signe of setting apart or meerly significative but an Institution for gifts to be conferred under the Law it was an empty and bare Rite but under the Gospell it cannot be proved to be such an empty Rite Gospell-signes being but few full and ministeriall to the spirit not meerly significatively-visible as the Institutions and Rites under the Law were So as all being thus questionable still in this present Presbytery how can they so Apostolically challenge such a Divine Right their present constitutions being mixt questionable fallible not one and the same with that primitive pure certaine constitutions and practices Whereas it appears in their Scripture-proofs that both in Jerusalem Ephesus Crete c. the Presbyters and Elders did constitute c. and were most consulted with and advised and therefore they assume the same power and so force out rather then prove out their frame of their present Presbytery from such practices I desire the Brethren to tell us whether the Word of the Gospell was then wholly in Scripture or writing but partly in the Spirit and gifts or teaching and therefore the Eldership of the Churches then were so gifted as to direct constitute advise and from the ministration of gifts in the Eldership c. the Institutions formes and Rules were given out into Scripture or writing which Scripture or written Word is now in the place of that infallible Primitive Eldership and therefore for any Presbytery or Eldership to assume now such a power as the first did they doe not only without warrant substitute themselves to such a Presbytery or Eldership which stood by another anointing or spirit of gifts then themselves doe but they sit downe in the throne with the very Scripture or written Word of God casting a shadow upon the glory and infallibility of that Word by that present authority and power which they now challenge in the interpretation of that Word in their Presbytery because by such a sure and certaine power as Divine Right allowes them they having not a sure and infallible Spirit for Church-censures or the execution of such a power may put forth a certaine sure executive power by an uncertaine unsure and fallible spirit And so how proportionable a power of Divine Right is with a Spirit not purely Divine and how proportionable a power of Church-censures acted by a gift not purely the Spirit 's but rather the Vniversities and Schooles and to joyne such an Eldership so with the infallible Word or Scripture which for want of that primitive or pure anoynting by gifts shall controule the pure Word of Truth by an Interpretation lesse then Truth I leave to all the world of beleevers to judge How such a visible power and Judge as a Nationall Assembly of such a Presbytery can be set up which must judge all the Churches and Congregations of Christ all the Magistracy and State-power in the Kingdom they assuming to themselves a spirit of judging and discerning of sins And whether by this power the Parliament of England shall not fall under the cognisance interpretation and censure of such an Assembly for some sins which they as a Civill power may commit especially dealing in Ecclesiasticall causes And then how far such a Nationall Assembly may manage such crimes to the heightning of their own interest and to the troubling the interest of the State amongst the people I let all judg who know how the same visible Ecclesiasticall Judge is condemned by all the Reformed Kingdoms under another notion viz. of the Antichrist and Pope and Councels And how that Antichristian power and Judge in Ecclesiasticals hath troubled this and other Kingdoms to the imbroiling them by excommunications into Wars and commotions as in our Histories c. and hath at length taken up other weapons then the Word to make good their Ecclesiasticall censures and interests And whether this visible forme of Classicall Provinciall Nationall Oecumenicall be any other then the like Papall Episcopall power differing only in forme in Consistoriall Provinciall Nationall Oecumenicall Counsels and Synods the like spirit
then I see you are forgive me this injury as the Apostle saies if I accounted you better then you desire to be Love hopeth all things and beleeveth all things And Paul it seems was better perswaded of Agrippa then there was cause and quoted some of the Heathen Poets better then they intended them as it seems I have done with you that being the greatest thing you lay to my charge Master Gataker 1 That our Antinomian Free grace is not the same with that of the Prophets in the Old Testament and the Apostles in the New 2 That in saying the Old Testament was rather a draught of a Legall dispensation then an Evangelicall or Gospell-one was to taxe the Ministery of the Prophets for no Free-grace 3 That in saying the Ministers now by the qualifications they preach do over-heat Free-Grace as your poore soules cannot take it doth make the Prophets Iuglers and deluders of the people Answer To your first That our Antinomian Free Grace is not the same with the Prophets and Apostles Why do you tell us of Antinomians of Prophets and Apostles Free-grace It is not the Free-grace of any of these Free-grace is of God in Jesus Christ Prophets and Apostles are but dispencers of it and Ambassadours of it and Ministers of it and yet Ambassadours not in the same habit The Prophets preached Grace in a rough and hairy garment or more Legally the Apostles in a more clear and bright habit in the revelation of the mystery of Christ The Law was given by Moses but Grace and Truth by Iesus Christ I could as easily say Master Gatakers Free-grace and the Legalists Free-grace as he sayes Our Antinomian Free-grace but such words and reproaches make neither you nor I speake better truth To your Second That in saying the Old Testament straine was rather Legall then Gospell taxes the Ministery of the Prophets for no Free-grace That is according to your Inference only Because the Spirit sayes the Law was given by Moses therefore will you put upon the Spirit that Moses taught or gave out nothing but Law Because I say The Old Testament was a Legall ministration therefore do I say there was no Free-grace in it or doe I not rather say Therefore it was Free-grace legally dispenced or preached or ministred Would not such Inferences be bad dealing with the Spirit and will it be faire dealing with me I wonder you who pretend to write against me as having not dealt justly with your sense will deale so unjustly with mine and commit the same sin your self in the very time of your reproving mine You may see what this Logick hath brought you to To deceive your selfe as well as your neighbour Can you cast out my mote and behold a beame in your own eye I have printed all you quoted let the Reader judge from this and compare it with the rest of my Book The whole frame of the Old Testament was a draught of Gods anger at sin And God in this time of the Law appeared only as it were upon tearmes and conditions of reconciltation and all the Worship then and acts of Worship then as of Prayer Fasting Repentance c. went all this way according to God under that appearance And in this straine saith he runnes all the Ministery of the Prophets too in their exhortations to Duty and Worship as if God were to be appeased and entreated and reconciled and his love to be had in way of purchase by Duty and Doing and Worshipping So as under the Law the efficacy and power was put as it were wholly upon the Duty and Obedience performed as if God upon the doing of such things was to be brought into tearmes of peace mercy and forgivenesse so as their course and service then was as it were a working for life and reconciliation Do not these words and termes inserted As it were and in the way and as if and is it were cleare me from such positive and exclusive assertions of Free-Grace as you would make me speak To the Third That in saying the Preachers with their qualifications over-heate Free-grace I doe by that make the Prophets deluders of the people c. I answer That way of preaching the Prophets used pressing as you say Repentance Reformation Humiliation and with Commination and the Law c. was but according to the way and method and straine the Spirit taught them under the Old Testament but if the Prophets should have held forth Jesus Christ under the New Testament and when Christ was manifested in the flesh with such vails over him and so much Law over him as they did before they had sinned against the glory of that ministration as well as some of you who bring Christ back againe under the cool shadow of the Law and make that Sun of Righteousnesse that he warmes not so many with the love of him as he would doe if ye would let them behold with open face as in a glasse the glory of the Lord and if you would give his beams more liberty to shine upon them doth not the ministration of the Spirit exceed in glory Nor were the Prophets deluders of the people then because it was the peoples time of Pupillage and being under Bondage they were shut up under the Law till faith came they were under Tutors and Governors till the time appointed So as that was truth and right dispensation in them to preach so much of the Law of curse and judgement c. as they did and of Repentance and Reformation in that straine they did But in ye who pretend to preach Christ come in the flesh ye who pretend to be Preachers in the Kingdome of God and so greater then the greatest Prophet then he that was more then a Prophet in ye such preaching were delusion because it were not as the truth is in Christ nor according to that glory of the Gospell to that grace revealed to that manifestation of Christ in the flesh to that ministration of glory but rather to those deceitfull workers the Apostle speaks on to those that troubled them with words subverting their souls who preached Law and Gospell Circumcision and Christ Master Gattaker 1 That we gird at those that bid men repent and be humbled and be sorry for sinnes and pray c. as Legall Teachers 2 That Christ preached repentance humiliation self-deniall conversion renouncing all in purpose this is not the same Gospell with that they preach as in Free-grace pag. 125 126 152 153 163 191 193. Answer To your first for our girding at those that bid men repent and be humbled c. as Legall teachers If ye presse repentance and humiliation legally why wonder ye at such words as Legall teachers Will ye doe ill and not be told of your faults must we prophesie smooth things to you and say ye are able Ministers of the New Testament when we are perswaded that truth is detained in unrighteousnesse We blame not any that bid men
repent or be sorry for sinne c. be humble c. if they preach them as Christ and the Apostles did as graces flowing from him and out of his fulnesse and not as springings of their owne and waters from their fountaines as if the teachers like Moses would make men beleeve they could with such Rods and exhortations smite upon mens hearts as upon rocks and bring waters out of them be they never so hard and stony We agree with you that repentance and sorrow for sinne and humiliation and self-deniall are all to be preached and shall contend with you who preaches them most and clearest but then because Iohn said Repent and Christ said Repent and Peter said Repent are we to examine the Mystery no farther Know we not that the whole Scripture in its fulnesse and integrality reveales the whole truth and must we not looke out and compare Scripture with Scripture spirituall things with spirituall and so finding out truth from the degrees to the glory and fulnesse of it preach it in the same glory and fulnesse as we find it We heare Christ preaching before the Spirit was given Repent and we find when the Spirit was given Christ is said to give Repentance to Israel and forgivenesse of sinnes and shall we not now preach Jesus Christ and Repentance in Jesus Christ the fountaine of repentance the author of repentance and yet preach repentance and repentance thus and repentance in the glory of it more The Apostle in one place saith Beleeve in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and in another place He is the author and finisher of our Faith Shall we not now preach Iesus Christ first and Iesus Christ the fountaine and Iesus Christ the author of faith and beleeivng and yet preach faith yea and thus preach faith faith in the glory faith in the revelation of it faith from Christ and faith in Christ One Scripture tels us godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation c. And another tels us They shall look on him whom they have peirced and they shall mourne for him c. Shall we not now preach sorrow for sin took from Christ Christ piercing and wounding and melting the heart Christ discovering sin and powring water upon drie ground this is sorrow for sin in the glory of the Gospell One Scripture bids He that will follow me let him deny himselfe and take up his crosse Another saith It is he that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure and I am able to do all things through Christ that strenghneth me Shall we not now preach Christ our strength and Christ our selfe-deniall and is not this selfe-denyall in the glory of the Gospell So as the difference betwixt us is this Ye preach Christ and the Gospell and the graces of the Spirit in the parts as ye find it we dare not speak the mystery so in peices so in halfe and quarter revealings we see such preaching answers not the fulnesse of the Mystery the riches of the Gospell the glory of the New Testament We find that in the fulnesse of the New Testament Christ is set up as a Prince as a King as a Lord as a crown and glory to every grace and gift nay he is made not only righteousnesse but sanctification too and so we preach him Whereas to preach his riches without him his graces by themselves single and private as repent and beleevs and be humbled and deny your selves ye make the gifts lose much of their glory Christ of his praise and the Gospell of its fulnesse To the Second of your alleadging my Book in such and such pages as another Gospell from Christs I shall print them as you quote them and with them I desire these things to be considered together with the other parts of my Booke and the scope of it which you have detained in unrighteousnesse All these I freely open to the judgment of all who are Spirituall Master Gataker 1 That John Christs and his Apostles Method were all one for matter and manner for they all preached Faith and Repentance and yet we are taxed for these things as Legalists by this Author 2 John and the rest preached life and salvation upon condition of Faith and Repentance and Obedience 3 Where we find Faith only preached it is because we have but the Summaries or heads of their Sermons Answer To the first that I taxe you for preaching Faith and Repentance as the Apostles did and John did as Legalists Nay I tax ye only because ye preach it not as they did according to the full revelation of it in the New Testament but you preach it only as you find it in their Summaries and in the briefe narration of their Doctrine and this you ought not to do if you will preach according to that glorious Analogie of the Gospell and to this I shall only bring in your own words to convince you and so from your own mouth condemn you You say of the Apostles We have but Summaries of them as in Acts 2. 40 and 16. 32. and you knowing this preach only by their first Methods and Summaries not looking to the revelation of the mystery which the Apostle saies is now made manifest And for Iohns manner of preaching his Preaching is to be no more an example to you then his Baptism You know the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater then he To the second That Faith Repentance and Obedience were conditions of life and salvation Why keep you not to the Forme of wholesome words in Scripture Where doth the Scripture call these conditions of salvation They that are Christs do beleeve and repent and obey but do they beleeve repent and obey that they may be Christs Hath not God chosen us in him predestinated us unto the adoption of children in Jesus Christ But I know you wil say That when the Apostles did beleeve repent and obey it is by consequence as much as a condition and the same with a condition But answer The interpreting the Spirit thus in the letter and in consequence hath much darkned the glory of the Gospell When some of Christs Disciples took his words as you do under a condition Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man c. the words saith he that I speake are Spirit Consider but what stâ—â—â—ts you bring the Gospell into first you make life appearing to be had in the Covenant of Grace as at first in the Covenant of Works Do this and live so beleeve repent obey and live thus runs your Doctrine nor can you with all your distinctions make Faith in this consideration lesse then a worke and so put Salvation upon a condition of works againe Is this Free-Grace But you say Faith is a gift freely given of God and here is Free-grace still But I pray Is this any more Free-Frace respectively to what we do for life then the Covenant of works
will not heare me speak But you would have the best assurance from tryall but so far I say not as you say is that the best Spirituall assurance that is from our own Spirits in part or from Gods alone from our own reasoning or his speaking Can a Spouse argue better the love of her friend from his Tokens and Bracelets or from his owne word and Letter and Seale One of the three that beare witnesse on Earth is the Spirit and in whom after ye believe ye were sealed with that Spirit of promise Can any Inference or Consequence drawn from Faith or Love or Repentance or Obedience in us so assure us as the breathing of Christ himself sealing assuring perswading convincing satisfying I will hear what God the Lord will say for he will speak peace to his Servants A Saint had rather hear that voice then all its own Inferences and Arguments which though they bring something to perswade yet they perswade not so answerably till the voyce speake from that excellent glory To your eighth That I clog men with conditions of receiving as well as you of repenting c. I answer I preach not Receiving as a condition as you do Repenting I Preach Christ the Power and Life and Spirit that both stands and knocks and yet opens the doore to himselfe I Preach not Receiving as a gift or condition given or begun for Christ but Christ working all in the Soul and the Soul working up to Christ by a power from himselfe And if you would Preach Repentance and Obedience as no other preceding or previous dispositions we should agree better in the Pulpit then we do in the Presse To your ninth That the sum of my Divinity is That men may be saved whither they Repent or no or beleeve or no. I answer Should I say to you The sum of your Divinity is this That Faith and Repentance and Obedience are helps with Christ and conditions with Christ to mans Salvation and that Salvation in not free but conditionall the Covenant of Grace is as it were a Covenant of Workes Should I do well in this to upbraib you and those of your way Say not then that I thinke men may be saved that never repent nor believe Why do you thus set up and counterfeit opinions and then engrave our Names upon them Could not I piece up your Book so if I would be unfaithfull as make ye appeare as great an Hereticke as any whom you thus fancy because I preach not Repentance or Faith as you do because I make all these as gifts from Gods love in Christ not as gifts to procure us God or his love or Christ because I make all these the fruits of the Spirit given to such whom Christ hath suffered for to such whom God hath chosen in him because I Preach Faith and Repentance and Obedience in that full Revelation in which they are left as in the New Testament and not in that scaâ—tling of Doctrine as they are meerly and barely revealed in the History of the Gospel or Acts of the Apostles onely where the Doctrine is not so much revealed as the Practise and the Story in Summaries because we Preach thus therefore we are all Antinomians Hereticks men not worthy to live Brethren must ye forbid us to Preach because we follow not with you because we Preach not the Law as ye do nor Faith as ye do nor Repentance as ye do therefore do we not Preach them at all We Preach them all as we are perswaded the New Testament and Spirit will warrant us and as we may make Christ to be the power of all and fulnesse of all as we may exalt him whom God hath exalted at his own right hand And we wish that ye and all that heare us were both almost and altogether as we are except in reproaches CONCLVSION FRom the 29 Page to the last all your Replyes amount not to any thing of substance but of quarrelsome and humorous exceptions and I shall I hope redeem my time better then in making a businesse of things that will neither edify the Writer nor the Reader There are some things you might had you pleased raised up into some Spirituall discourse as that of Works and Signs for assurance c. But you say of your self how becoming such a one as you I leave that you were like an Old Steed which neighs and prances but is past service so as I must take this of your age and infirmity as a fuller Answer or Supplement to what you faile in against me There are two or three things more observable then the rest 1. That you tax me for saying That the markes in Johns Epistles and James are delivered rather as marks for others then our selves to know us by and I affirme it againe not as you say excluding that other of our selves but as I said rather markes for others though for both in their degrees and kindes of manifestation So in James 2. 24. where he saith By Workes a man is Justified not by Faith So in Vers 18. 21. All which set forth Works a signe to others rather then our selves So in 1 John 3. 14. Hereby know we we are passed from death to life because we love the Brethren compared with Ver. 17. 18. shewes That it is a love working abroad in manifestation to the Brethren and yet I exclude not any evidence which the fruits of the Spirit carry in them as in my Book which yet you alleadge to that purpose after you have been quarrelling so long with it pulling my Treatise in pieces to make your selfe worke and then binde it up againe after your owne fashion For your Story of your Lady and your fallacy That she might as well conclude her selfe damned because she was a sinner as one that Christ would save because she was a sinner And durst you thus sport with a poor wounded spirit that perhaps could see little but sin in her selfe to conclude upen Know you not that Christ came to call sinners to save sinners And durst you make use of your Logick to cast such a mist upon the promises to sinners Suppose one should aske you how you gather up your assurance now you are an old man how would you account to us Would you say such a mâ—asure of Faith so much obedience so much love to the Brethren so much Zeale Prayer Repentance and all of unquestionable evidence But if we should go further and question you concerning your failings when you writ in the behalfe of Cards and Dice of the Common-Prayer-Book if we should aske ye of your luxuriarcy in quotations in your Books and Sermons whether all be out of pure zeale no selfishnesse no vain-glory Whether all your Love was without bitternesse to your Brethren of a diverse judgement whom you call Antinomian c. Whether you preached and obeyed all out of love to Iesus Christ and not seeking your own things not making a gaine of