their coniecturall opinion Howbeit for a further declaration heereof I do answer with Gregorie Beda Damascene the Schoolemen and others who doe all iointly affirme that euen as the knowledge of spirits and diuels in comparison of our knowledge is verie excellent and woonderfull large although yet in comparison of God the same is but shallow and shorte so surely those the supposed bodies of spirites and diuels in comparison of our earthly and palpable bodies may fitlie be saide to be spirituall whereas yet in comparison of the omnisufficient and incircumscriptible spirit of spirites they may after a sort be saide to be corporall And this our censure concerning corporall spirites being rightly vnderstood as it ought to be that is being graunted comparatiuely may very well stande with the truth For certeine it is that Angels are not spirites purely simple as God is most simple neither are they infinite and incircumscriptible spirits as God alone is but are marshalled within their proper dimensions and bounds All which being graunted it doth not thereupon necessarily folow that therefore Angels they are not created incorporall finite spirits and such as after their manner are limitted definitiuely within their proper dimensions but this rather folowes thereof namely that therefore spirits and diuels they are not most simple most infinite illocal nor omnipotent powers For the specialls do alwaies retaine the common nature of their generall and therein they fitly accord howsoeuer by reason of some repugnant formes they doe otherwaies dissent among themselues And thus your Fathers you see both old and new they are fully answered concerning their supposed mannaging of this your opinion of corporal spirits or diuels Philologus Are you able Lycanthropus to reply to his answere Lycanthropus I am vtterly vnable But sir sith you so confidently do hold that spirits and diuels are incorporall let vs heare your reasons and authorities concerning this point Orthodoxus With very good will my reasons are these First spirits and diuels haue not flesh and bones saith Christ as you see me to haue Wherein it is very apparant that there is one substance of humane bodies and another of spiritual powers Spirits they haue neither flesh nor bones therefore they cannot be comprehended with the sight of the eie nor handled by the sense of feeling both which are proper to the sensible perceiuing of humane bodies Againe the Lord saith the Apostle hath made his spirits his messengers and his ministers a flame of fier The which place albeit Dauid doth properly vnderstand of the operation of winds yet for as much as the Apostle applieth the same to the Angels it is not to be doubted at all but as the name Spirit so likewise a spirituall essence appertaineth vnto them Againe we read that a legion of diuels namely sixe thousand sixe hundred sixtie and sixe possessed the man in the Gospell whom Christ deliuered But if diuels be corporall substances and doe essentially enter into the bodie of man it is vtterly impossible that there should so many be crouded together and all contained at once within the narrow corners of an humane bodie Exorcistes Some doe hold there was in deed but one onely diuell in the possessed whose name was Legion Orthodoxus As though it were possible that one onely diuell could be really inherent in two seuerall persons at once Besides that it is verie apparant in Marke and in Luke that there was not one but many diuels yea and Mathew also exchanging the name of one into many he saith the diuels besought Christ that they might goe into the heard of swine Exorcistes Sir I onely haue shewed you what some others doe hold but proceed in your purpose Orthodoxus I proceed thus The spirits or soules of men are incorporall therefore spirits and diuels are also incorporall For if the reasonable soule or spirit of a man be not corporall in any respect I meane if it be neither solide nor palpable as are the earthie and terrestriall bodies neither yet subtile or slender as are the airie and celestiall bodies then without doubt spirits and diuels they are likewise incorporall because they also are spirits For the nature and definitions of a spirit and a bodie do altogither and in euery respect differ betweene themselues And thus besides those Philosophicall reasons which Physiologus propounded before you haue hetherto heard from the Scriptures such seuerall arguments as doe verie plainely conclude the non being of corporall spirites or diuels Pneumatomachus Beleeue me Lycanthropus before we began this our conference I doubted greatly of the essentiall being of spirits and diuels Howbeit now I am cleere in that point and by this discourse doe farther perceiue them to be admirable and woonderfull powers Lycanthropus Verie true as you saie But sir let vs heare I beseech you your authorities also concerning this point Orthodoxus With verie good will Wherein I assure you that this our opinion concerning incorporall spirits and diuels is generallie receiued in the church of God approoued by the consent of many Diuines and confirmed fully from the Laterane Councel Lycanthropus For the generall receite thereof in the Church I make little doubt but let vs heare now your seuerall authorities Orthodoxus Content First Dionysius writeth thus Wee account not saith he the celestiall and deified powers or spirits to consist of innumerable feete or to haue a manifold countenance neither yet to be like vnto liuing and corporall creatures albeit the sacred Scriptures in speaking of them doe vse these Poeticall and fained formes Chrysostome he saith the Seraphimes are called spirits that is incorporall and supernaturall powers And a little after he saith they be called fierie or flaming creatures because their substance is most pure Augustine be defineth them thus Angels and diuels are spirituall powers incorporall substances inuisible insensible reasonable intellectuall and immortall the good ones they are shining and impassible the euill ones blacke and passible Theodoret he saith that God created the vniuersall nature of incorporall substances constituting decreeing and ordeining their said nature to be intellectuall and also immortall Andreas of Ierusalem he saith that Angels and spirites are all without their bodies Gregorie also he saith in like sort that spirits and diuels they haue no flesh Isidore he saith that Angels and diuels according to their nature are called spirits Damascene he saith that Angels and spirits are intellectuall substances euermore mooueable and free by the arbiterment of their proper power incorporall the ministers of God obtaining immortalitie by grace not by nature the portraiture bounds of whose substantiall being onely the creatour of spirites he knoweth himselfe Carolus magnus he saith the essentiall substance of Angels and diuels is immortall because they be spirits by nature Vigerius Saonensis he saith that Angels are all of them spirituall substances without any bodies at all consisting of vnderstanding and will and
therefore they are euerie of them called Angels as it were by a Christian name Culmannus he saith that Angels are not corporall but spiritual substances because they be spirits For a spirit is not a substance consicting of elements or hauing flesh and bones in which onely respect the Scriptures do call them ministring spirits Briefly Bernard he saith the verie wals are vnable to withstand the Angelicall spirits but that all bodies how solide or palpable soeuer they are vnto them verie penetrable Loe heere we haue summoned a grand-Iurie of ancient Fathers who haue all with one generall consent giuen vp their verdit concerning the non being of corporall spirites and diuels Go to therefore Lycanthropus what say you them Lycanthropus I saie they are all good men and true Orthodoxus Waell then I hope you will yeeld this question namely that spirites and diuels they haue not materiall bodies peculiar to their essentiall being but are altogither simple and incorporall substances and that therefore their essentiall being in men if the same should be granted can neuer be perceiued by corporall sense and so by consequence no corporall possession at all Lycanthropus I yeeld no such matter vnto you Orthodoxus Why man it was the determination of that grand-Iurie of Fathers whom you acknowledge for good men and true Whereupon their verdit was foorthwith authentically recorded and may not now by any orderly course be reuersed Lycanthropus It may be they were to inconsiderate and rash in giuing their verdite and therefore let vs heare your Laterane Councell concerning this matter in question Orthodoxus What man must the credit of a grand-Iurie of Catholike Fathers be made to depend vpon the approbation of a generall Councell Well then the Laterane Councell doth flatly confirme that Angels or spirits they are incorporall created of God and were not eternall before al beginnings but created onely in time By all the premisses then you may plainly perceiue by swaie of argument by plaine euidence of Scripture by authoritie of Fathers yea and by the whole consent of a generall Councell that spirits and diuels are incorporall substances and that therefore if diuels doe essentially enter into the bodies of men as your selfe do fondly imagine they enter not so by any bodies of their owne because they haue no bodies at all Lycanthropus Whether diuels haue bodies or no bodies it makes no great matter verie certaine I am they haue a reall possession in men and I prooue it thus Spirites and diuels they can essentially assume to themselues true naturall bodies therefore they can essentially enter into the possessed mans bodie Orthodoxus Are you fledde on the sodaine from the diuell his reall possessing of bodies to his essentiall assuming of bodies Can you find no fast footing to setle your selfe vpon that you thus plodde hether and thither from point to point as a man fearefully distracted or suddenly fallen in a maze Lycanthropus Yes sir I haue fast footing I warrant you for whatsoeuer I hold although yet now I rather desire to heare what you are able to say concerning the diuell his essentiall assuming of true naturall bodies Orthodoxus Well then I perceiue your store is not great being thus constrained to spend on the stocke Howbeit because this matter wil craue a longer discourse then the present time will affoord let vs therefore goe take our naturall rest and meet here againe betimes in the morning to discourse this point to the full Physiologus Your motion is good for vs all Philologus Very true as you say And therefore we three wil repaire to our Innes to take our rest and meete you God willing to morrow by six of the clocke Orthodoxus Wel then let vs forthwith arise and depart The end of the third Dialogue The fourth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT Whether Spirits and Diuels can assume to themselues true naturall bodies What bodies they are said to assume and how those Scriptures are to be vnderstood which be for this purpose produced The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Philologus LYcanthropus I haue this night in my sleepe beene so strangely troubled about thy last argument as if thou take heed to thy selfe I verily beleeue thou wilt giue them the foile Lycanthropus I am so perswaded my selfe howbeit if I be conquered therein I haue another in store that will trouble them more then that by a thousand fold Pneumatomachus Make much of your arguments against the intended skirmish and all little enough for you are to encounter with sharpe sighted aduersaries Lycanthropus Be as sharpe as they will they shall be sure to receiue as hot as they bring But behold where they come Orthodoxus What sirs God giue you good morrow You haue preuented our purpose which was to haue perused an author or twaine before your comming Howbeit sith you are all so readie Goe to Lycanthropus propound your argument to vs. Lycanthropus I propound it thus Spirits and Diuels they can essentially assume to themselues true naturall bodies therefore they can essentially enter into the possessed mans bodie Physiologus We haue hetherto denied and your selfe was vnable to prooue any reall or substantiall possession at all and would you now thus cunningly insinuate some essentiall entrance of diuels vnder the pretence of assumed bodies Which assuming of bodies if it should be denied would perhaps be as hard to prooue as any the points before Philologus What sir would you beare vs in hand it were hard to prooue that the diuell can assume to himselfe a bodie That was neuer yet doubted of any and dare your selfe vndertake to denie the same Physiologus I vndertake no absolute deniall thereof but onely do here make it a Question Howbeit sith your selues are so resolute concerning this point doe tell me what bodie the diuell doth assume to himselfe Whether a true naturall or phantasticall bodie Pneumatomachus Surely a true natural bodie or none at all Physiologus If a true naturall bodie then tell me further whether it be a bodie created before or to be newly created Lycanthropus It is a bodie created before Physiologus If you hold it a bodie created before then tell me yet further whether you take it to be a liuing or dead mans bodie Exorcistes I take it to be some liuing mans bodie if any at all else how should it possibly serue the diuels purpose Physiologus I woonder you should so grossely imagine an impossible matter For where hath the diuell receiued power from the Lord to dispossesse liuing soules of their organicall bodies And what must become of that liuing mans soule all the while the diuell assumeth his bodie it selfe to serue his mischieuous purpose Moreouer it is verie absurde to suppose that the diuell can possibly assume to himselfe any liuing mans bodie Because the Lord hath so vnchangeably established such an inseperable vnion betweene the soule and bodie of a liuing man as vnlesse the bodie and soule be substantially vnited
certainly so as that S. Donston did hold the diuell fast by the nose with a paire of pincers the very first day he appeared vnto him in such an assumed bodie wherein Donston serued the Diuell of trust and according to his due desertes to teach him to be medling with the worke of creation before he had gotte a Comission from God But alas Lycanthropus are you not highly ashamed to hold so maine absurd and horrible impieties or rather such execrable and intollerable blasphemies For be you throughly assured of this that your selfe imagening the diuell a creator of bodies you doe thereby ascribe vnto him a supernaturall power and therein also doe attribute that vnto diuels which onely is due vnto God because creation of substances was neuer yet graunted to man or Angell much lesse vnto diuels Besides that if it were in the power of diuels either to create or assume to them selues essentiall bodies at pleasure it is not then to be doubted but that such and so endlesse is their malice towards men we should shortly haue the whole world replenisht with corporall diuels yea and their number would farre surmount the number of men if all be true that is set downe in Salomons notes of coniuration Wherein are named seauentie nine principall diuels hauing euery of them vnder them and at their commaund some tenne twentie thirtie fortie fiftie sixtie seauentie yea and some of them eightie legions of diuels at the least So then howsoeuer your selfe shall otherwaies dreame of a power in Satan for assuming of bodies sith they can be no such bodies as are newly created either by God or the diuell sith they can be no bodies created before sith they can be no bodies of men either dead or aliue it must necessarily follow that those imagined bodies which the diuels are supposed to assume to them selues they are in deed and in truth no true naturall bodies Lycanthropus It is like then that the diuels they do onely assume to themselues but a phantasticall body Physiologus And it is like then that the diuels they haue onely in men but a phantasticall possession which is the very same issue you were brought vnto before when we discoursed of the mental possession of diuels Philologus How now Lycanthropus are you brought to a non-plus before you well wiste Lycanthropus I wot not I assure you which waies to winde my selfe out from these windings and turnings howbeit for any thing hitherto heard I will neuer beleeue but that the diuell can assume to himselfe a true naturall bodie Orthodoxus What man will you with such setled pertinacie dwell in your opinion not hauing sound reason therefore Lycanthropus Yes sir I haue reasons and authorities both support me therein Orthodoxus Let vs first heare your reasons Lycanthropus With verie good will wherein first from the like I doe reason thus The good Angels of God they haue appeered to men in assumed bodies therefore spirits and diuels they may also appeere vnto men in assumed bodies Orthodoxus Your argument is faultie the same not consisting of things essentially alike in euery respect For neither haue the infernall diuels those heauenly priuiledges which the celestiall Angels enioy neither yet are they equall with them in knowledge and power So as although the good Angels doe sometimes assume to themselues essentiall bodies yet doth it not necessarilie folow that therefore the euill Angels or diuels are able to do the like Againe howsoeuer the good Angels haue at some time assumed essential bodies yet doth it not appeer and your selfe cannot prooue that they created those bodies themselues but by the prouident power and appointment of God they had them from else where for that speciall seruice whereunto they were sent Moreouer there is no sound consequence in this viz. Good Angels they do visible appeere vnto men in assumed bodies therefore euill Angels they doe the like This I say doth not folow because of the good Angels appearing in visible bodies we haue had often and manifest experience but of the euill Angels appearing so no example or instance at all can be giuen Briefly your argument is but a deceaueable Elench from a may be to the being indeed whereof no certeine conclusion can folow For thus you reason Good Angels haue appeared to men in assumed bodies therefore spirites and Diuels they may also appeare vnto men in assumed bodies This your may be concludeth nothing for certeine Whereas you should haue argued thus Good Angels appeare in assumed bodies therefore spirits and diuels do appeare vnto men in assumed bodies but then your consequent woulde haue been ouer-hard to prooue and besides that it is the very question it selfe By the premisses then it is very apparant that this your first reason hath in it no reason at all to support your opinion Lycanthropus But sith it is certeine that the good Angels doe oftentimes appeare in assumed bodies why should not spirites and diuels be able to do the like Orthodoxus As though because the omnipotent God doth furnish and endowe his heauenly messengers with sensible bodies when and so oft as seemeth good to himselfe therefore euery impotent and infernall spirit or diuell is able also to do the like at their pleasures Lycanthropus Why may not the Lord do as much for spirits and diuels Orthodoxus The Lord may do whatsoeuer he please that it will be his good pleasure to do this which you dreame of who can certeinly say His pleasure in the one hath beene made apparant vnto vs by often experience for the other we haue neither worde nor promise nor example to my remembrance Exorcistes Yes there is a plaine proofe heereof in the Psalmes where Dauid saith plainly that the Lord powred foorth the fiercenes of his wrath vpon the Egyptians by sending his euill Angels among them Orthodoxus What vnderstand you by the euil Angel there Exorcistes Those spirits and diuels wherewith they were dailie tormented Orthodoxus Consider diligentlie the story concerning the Egyptian plagues and tel me where you find any one diuel afflicting them nay tel me what one plague was among them which was not inflicted vpon them by the message and ministery of Moses and Aaron And therefore you are deepely deceiued in mistaking these words by sending the Angels or messengers of euils Which place Tremellius vnderstands not of spirites and Diuels sent among them but of Moses and Aaron rather whom the Lord sent to the Egyptians as his only Angels that is the only messengers and executioners of all those his euils which were cast vpon Egipt And this sense is in my opinion according to the purpose coherence and scope of the Psalme it selfe Lycanthropus But it is as Exorcistes saith in the vulgar translation Orthodoxus It is true and therefore let it so stand as he saith for euil Angels I meane for spirits and diuels But now tel me withal how much this place doth make for the assuming of bodies by
vnransackt or learned brother vnconferred withall wheresoeuer we came to further vs both in those seuerall points we seuerally held What one iourney was refused or present toyle vnattempted to trie foorth the sound truth of such flying reports as ranne all abroad and all this for the more enabling and the better furnishing of vs to that our former determined skirmish What sundrie and often recourses the one to the other What entercourse of writings What mutuall conferences What hot disputes What arguings What answerings What replies and reioynders or euer we could fitly accord about the seuerall questions propounded betweene vs And which is more to be considered the contention it selfe concerning these matters it became no lesse violent then that betweene Paul and Barnabas about the hauing of Iohn Marke in their companie in so much as we eftsoones departed asunder the one from the other Howbeit that onely wise God who turneth the infirmities of his seruants to the furtherance of his glorie he did so moderate our mindes concerning the action in hande as wee both of vs fully resolued to stande fast to our tacklings and thereupon also by an interchangeable couenant did foorthwith conclude to continue this newly attempted controuersie vntill by the verie sway of truth the one be enforced dare manus to hold foorth the hand and submit to the other And herein also we found euerie hower the fauorable assistance of Gods holy spirit for the timely suggesting of many strange and vnwoonted matters which haue not hetherto beene vsually heard of concerning the question it selfe With these many meditations and seuerall conferences we were wholy taken vp till the verie truth it selfe as we verily beleeue began after many debatings and bickerings to breake foorth like the sunne in his strength Whereupon also we eftsoones began to speake both of vs but one and the selfesame things and which more is being now knit together in one minde and one iudgement concerning these seuerall matters we determined foorthwith to put downe in writing whatsoeuer had deliberately passed betweene vs. Purposing withall to vse the priuate contemplation of these our primarie labours as a prouoking sharpe â—pur to pricke vs eftsoones an ende vnto the timely vndertaking of the like priuate conference in some other matters else of like waightie importance That being by this meanes sequestred quite from all secular cares we might the more freely imploy our whole mindes to such secret meditations as should further the timely discharge of our seuerall duties Perceiuing moreouer by the timely dispatch of this one intricate matter that two conscionable ministers conioyning their studies being both of them industrious bent wholy in hart to search and to find forth wisedome by althings that are done vnder heauen might by such mutuall endeuours verie easily accomplish many profitable workes for themselues and some others Howbeit for the putting ouer of these our priuate labours to the publike veiw of the world that we assure thee was neuer in our thoughts at the first no we did fully resolue to keepe these our conferences from the sight of all others saue onely our selues for these following reasons First we were greatly discouraged from the publication hereof in an onely regard of our proper imperfections for the skilfull determining of such intricate doubts acknowledging our manifold wants to be such so great as we were mightily afraid to put the due trial of our skil vpon termes And for this cause we durst not attempt the tendring of our owne but hourely expected from some others of more maturity a booke better ballanced for the timely encouÌ„tring with such late bred broiles as concerned especially those vnwonted occurrents Secondly our said purpose for publishing this treatise was also eftsoones nipt in the head by often recounting the new-fangled nicenesse of this present age wherein nothing almost is now pleasing to any especially the curious companions but that which being euery way concluded first in scholasticall forme is also very finely florished ouer with a Ciceronian vernish And therefore perceiuing these our labors to come short of such reckoning we verely perswaded our selues that this plaine coine of ours would hardly passe with those cinicall censurers for currant good paiment Thirdly the maturity and ripenesse of many ministers and others among whom we conuerse was not the least stoppage vnto vs. For we are not ignorant that men now a daies being very acute in conceite too too much ready with eagle-like eies to prie exactly into any thing publisht in print are euery way able and apt enough also to censure so sharply as may be the published labours of others how lazy or leaden-heeled soeuer in laying foorth their owne proper talents to the greatest aduantage Fourthly our compassionable care to profit and our exceeding great loathenesse to preiudice the parties them selues or to aggrauate with the waight of one finger the present afflictions of those whom this treatise of ours more especially concernes hath hitherto forestalled our purpose from publishing our present labours Being in very great feare that these our pretious balmes how soueraine soeuer would rather breake their heads then bind vp their bleeding wounds the physicall composition of our oile and our wine it is so vntoothsome a triacle to their distempered humour and vnsauory tast Lastly we haue thus long been held back from making our conferences common to others in an especiall regard of that christian conceit which we haue hitherto had of their christian conformity to a more dexterity together with the needlesnes as we thought in publishing any other new matter concerning this argument Both because authority it selfe had seised vpon them long since and for that also the printed report of the commissioners iudiciall proceedings against them might as we verily thought haue been fully sufficient for many respects to quiet their passionate spirits and to calme the turbulent tempests arising from thence For if the good man of God he hauing a far better cause and calling then these men to persist and hold out in his purpose attempted did notwithstanding very duetifully submit to Amaziah his princely commaund concerning his silencing we verily perswaded our selues that Quâ—ene Elizabeths authenticall commission concerning ecclesiasticall persons and causes in due regard of their dueties to God and her Maiesty might haue enioined them both to lay their hand on their mouth and to put a present end to their further proceedings in a practise especially so directly opposite to her princely prerogatiue so authentically debated and the same so iudicially also determined Loe these in effect were the maine reasons them selues which hetherto with held vs both from profering our labours to the publique veiw of the world If happely it seeme strang vnto any that we should now so suddainely desist from such a determined purpose it may please them to consider afresh that for as much as some malefactours notwithstanding their palpable crimes in a malcontented humour doe
essentiall being The rather because euery creature else how contemptible soeuer being once created it hath an essentiall substance and if the basest of all then much more the Angels they being indeed such excellent creatures Pneumatomachus Well goe to how next from their effectuall operations Orthodoxus Thus their operations haue beene and now are apparantly euident to all the world whether we respect the Lord or his church So that for any to doubt of their essentiall being is to call in question the sun-shine at mid-day and as wel may he denie their operations whatsoeuer Pneumatomachus Good sir is this your substantiall proouing of Angels and Spirits I denie that the Lord God euer created any Angels at all and then to what purpose doe you vrge their supposed operations Orthodoxus Sith you so confidently denie both Spirits and Diuels tell me what you imagine those to be which we generally hold for Spirits and Angels Pneumatomachus Sir I take those your supposed spirits for none other matters at all but the good or euill motions and affections arising in men as also those your imagined Angels I hold them to bee nothing else but the sensible signes or tokens of Gods vnspeakeable power Orthodoxus You do then conclude it should seeme that our faith concerning those matters is grounded altogither vpon bare supposals and idle imaginations of wandring braines I like well your plainnes in laying open your minde although I alowe not your pestiferous opinions iumping so pat with the Parepateticall and Sadusaicall sort Who flatly denying either Angel or Spirite do confidently auouch that there is nothing immortall in man which is a verie dangerous gulph of hell that deuoureth and swaloweth vp all sound diuinitie and sincere knowledge of God For first by opposing your selfe against all the essentiall spirits and powers of the Lord what doe you else in effect but implicatiuely reiect the essentiall being of the holy Ghost and then next you do also by consequence verie flatly deny that there is any God at all for what I pray you is God but a Spirite Pneumatomachus Nay sir howsoeuer I oppose my selfe to the catholike opinion of Spirits and Diuels I do confidently auouch and confesse that there is one true euerliuing God of an incomprehensible inuisible and spirituall essence distinguished into the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost And moreouer concerning men and my selfe I do with like confidence verie cleerely acknowledge that euerie of vs also are essentiallie endued with spirituall and immortall soules Orthodoxus You cannot faithfully finally hold these infallible truthes from your hart but you must and will presently banish those other palpable errours from out of your brest For euen as Aaron his rodde deuoured foorthwith the counterfeite rods of all the Egyptian Sorcerers so surely these your confessed truths concerning the essentiall spirits and powers of the Lord being faithfully held from the hart will in the end I doubt not be another Aaronicall rodde to confute and confound those other Sadusaical sorceries wherewith the Diuel hath so dangerously bewitched your soule Lycanthropus Verie true if he be not to opinionate therein Pneumatomachus Sir howsoeuer I haue beene hitherto opinionate in this speciall point I am notwithstanding very loth that reason should be ouerruled by will or that the holy truth of God should giue place vnto errour and therefore proceed I beseech you in the timely vnfolding of this hidden mysterie Orthodoxus With very good will wherein also for your speedier conceiuing of that which is spoken we will first lay open the originall fountaine from whence this errour floteth abroad and then next hauing fully answered your arguments we wil directly prooue vnto you both Spirits and Diuels Exorcistes A very excellent order For there by first you shall cleere our iudgements and then next you shall the more fully confirme vs in the infallible truth Lycanthropus That is certainly so But what thinkes Pneumatomachos Pneumatomachus I acknowledge no lesse and do promise withall to giue an attentiue eare to whatsoeuer is spoken Orthodoxus Well then to proceede therein accordingly this I dare boldly affirme that your Parepatetical opinion or rather that this your Sadusaicall sorcerie concerning the non being of Spirits and Diuels proceedeth directly from a two-folde false ground Namely first from the naturall corruption of your proper minde and secondly from a carelesse misconstruing of some certeine places of Scripture Both which saide false grounds albeit I could and might well relate them my selfe yet because the first is rather Philosophical then Diuine I do purposely put ouer the prosecuting thereof as of al other like points to this my good brother if it please him to trauell therin reseruing the latter to entreate of my selfe Physiologus Sith it is your good pleasure to haue it so I will gladly giue my endeuour to satisfie the man so it seemeth him good Pneumatomachus With all my hart if first you will tell me who you are and what is your name Physiologus I am I assure you a friend to the truth and my name is Physiologos Pneâ—matomachus In very good time be it spoken But may I be bold by the way to aske you a question without offence Physiologus Propound at your pleasure and aske what you please Pneumatomachus Was not your name also purposely giuen to purport vnto vs your proper nature For Physiologus you say is your name which vnlesse I be fowly deceaued is as much to say as a babler or pratler of naturall Philosophie or it signifieth rather some notable discourser of naturall causes I hope you are none of those cogging companions of whom the Apostle doth wish vs beware who goe purposely about to spoile men with Philosophie and vaine deceit Orthodoxus Nothing lesse For the man I assure you is both a sound Philosopher and a sincere Diuine Neither would I haue you once to imagine that Paul doth there purposely oppose himselfe to all true Philosophie whether naturall or morall no but reprooueth rather that false and counterfeit Philosophie which hauing onely an appearance of truth and not the substance of truth it selfe is cunningly foisted in by cogging companions to spoile and deceiue mens mindes of the truth indeed For otherwaies all true Philosophie is the speciall gift of God and a principall helpe to Diuinitie so far foorth especially as she is made a submissiue Moderatour in naturall causes and not a commaunding Mistres ouer Diuinitie Then I assure you shee comes in her naturall kinde and thrice happie is he that hath a true insight into her according to that old accustomed saying Foelix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas The wight that could all causes skan Might count himselfe an happie man Now then such a Philosopher is this and therefore be bold vpon my warrant to harken freely vnto him concerning the first ground of your errour Pneumatomachus I credit your words let him therefore proceede in his purpose Physiologus
cause in deed For neither is infinitenesse nor the vbiquity depending thereon the only proper cause that any thing is incorporal but some other thing els As for example an omnipresence or if so I may speake an incorporiety is truely in God howbeit God is incorporal not so much in regard of his vbiquity as because he is a simple spirit Angels in like sort are therefore incorporal in their proper degree because they be spirits but yet created spirits and they are therefore local because they be finite substances Thus then your said author his first argument afordeth smal force you see to your present purpose Lycanthropus But he argueth secondly thus Whatsoeuer is incorporal that also is inuisible spirites and diuels they are not inuisible therefore also not incorporal Orthodoxus First the assumption is meerely false because it maketh spirits and diuels naturally visible which al men do know to be otherwaies by common experience For who euer hath hitherto seene or could possibly perceiue a spirit or diuel as they are in their proper nature Againe in the proposition he failes as before by pretending a cause which is not the cause For the denying of a corporal or bodily beeing is not the proper cause of inuisibility but the absence the vitiousnesse the depriuation or fault of some other thing els which are necessarily required in the action of seeing Besides that by this argument a man might also deny the aiery element to be a body or corporal substance for who can possibly behold or sensibly see the purity of the ayre it selfe Thus then your old fathers you see they in deed and in truth are not interessed at al in that misbegotten ofspring which your selfe so desirously but yet fasly would father vpon them and therefore let vs now here what better hap with the new Lycanthropus With a very good will First Rhodiginus he affirmeth confidently that spirits and diuels haue their proper bodies Orthodoxus How should he so confidently affirme his opinion not hauing the conformitie and concord of truth consorting therewith Besides that Rhodiginus he proues his assertion by the bare and onely authority of Augustine the which auctority and opinion of his as you haue heard it disproued before so surely Rhodiginus himselfe he doth dangerously crosse and annihilate it by opposing many vnauoidable exceptions of scholemen against the same And therefore Rhodiginus his authority is nothing authenticall or currant concerning your question Lycanthropus But Caietanus explaining these the Apostles words according to the prince of the airie spirits or powers he is not afraide to affirme that it holdeth best with reason and sound Philosophie to beleeue that spirits and diuels are constituted naturally of airie bodies Orthodoxus Doth Caietanus say so indeed Oh the wit that abounds in a Cardinals hat But what is his reason I pray you Lycanthropus He hath a reason that knockes it dead namely this Euen as saith he the vegetatiue substance is found without the sensitiue and the sensitiue without the motiue and an intellectiue without either sensitiue or motiue according to place so is it credible that an intellectiue may be found without a sensitiue with a motiue onely according to place and such saith he are spirits and diuels Orthodoxus Doth Caietanus conclude as you say Now faire fall his good hart for his cunning conclusion surely he himselfe alone hath striken the Popingaie dead This I confesse is an admirable argument Howbeit this I must tell you that such maner of arguments howsoeuer they may seeme at a blush to giue a glimmering shewe of conueniencie they haue in them verie small force to conuince And without doubt if Caietanus his conclusion be canonized currant it might in like maner be granted that the sensitiue substance is to be found without the vegetatiue and the intellectiue with the sensitiue without the motiue according to place and so no one thing shall be wanting which may tende to the generalitie and absolutenesse of such kinde of couplings togither Which when all is done your opinion for any thing Caietanus concludes is like to lie in the dust Exorcistes Yea but Georgius he affirmeth plainely that spirits and diuels are not onely corporall and airie substances but that they haue in them also the power of generation and can shedde forth seed for that purpose Howbeit when they come to a woman saith he then they do contract gather togither or thicken their airie bodies fashioning them fitte for the purpose which they presently affect yea and that also their ofsprings are properly Gyants Orthodoxus Notwithstanding Georgius his impudent and shamelesse affirmation of a matter so shamefull I will at no hand be drawne any longer to heare it much lesse doe I giue credite vnto it and which more is I will neither defile my toong nor infect your chaste eares with the filthie contagion thereof it being so impossible in nature and so incredible in all sound Diuinitie Howbeit if any of the learned be further desirous to heare this his grosse impudencie and foolerie more fully confuted I referre them ouer to the learned Treatises of such as haue sifted that offensiue argument vnto the bran More especially to the seuerall workes of Wierus Engubinus Casmannus Aristotle Frisiuss Scaliger Cassianus and others who do euery of them so soundly beate downe this your Georgius his grosse assertion as I my selfe shall not neede to deale in it at all Lycanthropus But yet Zanchius a man of excellent learning he not onely enclineth that way but holdeth withall this my opinion of corporall spirits Orthodoxus Zanchius imbraceth the same I confesse as the more probable opinion in his conceite but what manner of bodies spirits and diuels should haue he doth not determine That they haue airy bodies he seeth not he saith how the same should be proued But he verely supposeth spirits and diuels to haue other manner of bodies then either airie or celestiall bodies and that the substance of their bodies is more like to the substance of that heauen of the blessed which is properly called the Empyrial or fiery heauen Thus this excellent learned man he doth giue among others his coniecturall opinion concerning the bodies of spirits and diuels A coniectural opinion I say very purposely consonant to that other opinion which himselfe and some others doe hold about the creation of Angels in that the forenamed heauen of the blessed Howbeit neither Zanchius nor any of the rest do certeinly determine this matter in question Lycanthropus Well yet Zanchius and the other they purposely encline to this my opinion concerning corporall spirits and diuels Orthodoxus Not so For whereas your selfe do certainly hold that spirits and diuels are endued with grosse and airie bodies Zanchius and some others suppose they do rather consist of empyriall or fierie bodies as was shewed before where also I haue purposelie put downe the speciall reason of this
no vndoubted true signes of any dispossessing of Satan But in all the adiurations which concerne the aforesaid examples there was no crying aloude no rending sore nor no leauing as dead therefore in all the adiurations which concerne the aforesaid examples there were no vndouted true signes of the dispossessing of satan Thus then it is very apparant you see by all the premisses that vnlesse you will purposely fall into palpable absurdities you may at no hand auouch that those cryings those rendings and tearings and that leauing for dead are the vndoubted true signes of the dispossessing of satan No you must rather perswade your selfe they were purposely reported for speciall and proper effects of that speciall and proper action of Christ and not considerately put downe for perpetuall and vndoubted true signes of all the actuall dispossessings of spirits and diuels in whomsoeuer Notwithstanding be it supposed which will neuer be prooued that your selfe did vndoubtedly driue foorth a diuel from the yoongman at Mahgnitton and that some cryings aloude some rendings sore and some leauing as dead were then also the speciall effects of that your supposed speciall action doe here tell vs I pray you after what speciall manner you effected the action Whether onely by meanes or by a miraculous manner Exorcistes Surely euen onely by meanes and not by any miraculous manner of working at all Physiologus Good Maister Orthodoxus let me argue this matter a little Come on Exorcistes doe you hold in good earnest that diuels may bee driuen foorth from men and that onelie by meanes Exorcistes I am very confident therein I assure you Physiologus Make your mind plaine before we proceede And tel me I pray you whether spirtts and diuels by very natural or corporall meanes may be truely dispossessed and driuen from men Exorcistes Yea euen by very naturall or corporall meanes Physiologus Why man spirits and diuels they are meere spirituall creatures But such is the proper condition of spirituall creatures that all corporall matters whatsoeuer they come short thereunto by many degrees and therefore we may boldly conclude that those corporall or sensible things can work nothing efficiently in spirits and diuels can offer no violence at all vnto them nor possibly expell them from any their actuall possessions Exorcistes Yes sir I am able to demonstrate this matter by an argument of comparison thus There is one and the selfesame condition of spirits and of liuing mens soules for they are both of them spirituall essences But euen by a meere corporall or sensible meanes may some violence be offered to liuing mens soules yea they may thereby eftsoones be separated quite from their bodies and therefore euen to spirits also by meanes of some corporall or sensible matter there may eftsoones some violence be offered and they also may be expelled quite from their actuall possessions in man Physiologus Your argument of comparison it consisteth not of such pares as are equally alike in euerie respect no it halteth downe right in that selfesame point wherupon it is more especially grounded and therefore it enforceth no necessarie conclusion vpon vs at all For the condition of spirits and of liuing mens soules howsoeuer alike in spirituall essence it is vtterly vnlike respecting the bodies whereupon they both worke Soules they are properly conioyned to their owne proper bodies as the verie first essential forme thereof appointed by God howbeit spirits not by any proprietie but by vsurpation rather they are onely actually there as the afflictors or tormentors permitted by God So then for those former respects the soules of liuing men doe necessarily require in those their owne bodies some such certaine dispositions and qualities as the diuels themselues they being no true essentiall formes of those bodies require not at all And therefore spirits or diuels they may actually afflict and torment those selfesame bodies of men how vnfitly soeuer they finde them whereas the soules of men vnlesse those their said bodies be aptly proportioned and fitted thereto they cannot informe them at all Exorcistes Sir howsoeuer you enforce a disparison betweene spirites and soules concerning especially their dealings with bodies and thereby would frustrate the force of my argument verie certeine I am that spirits or diuels they may be driuen foorth from mens bodies and that onely by meanes Physiologus But by what meanes I beseech you whether by an vncreated or by a created meanes Exorcistes Not by any vncreated meanes at all For how can I possiblie practise that thing which is either vncreated or not existing in nature Physiologus Then you do flatly conclude that spirites or diuels they may actually be dispossessed euen by a created or meere naturall meanes Exorcistes Yea so much I flatly conclude Physiologus This then I must tell you for certeine that you doe very fondly conclude you wotte not what For this is vndoubtedly true that no created or naturall meanes whatsoeuer may efficiently extend themselues to any such supernaturall actions as do anie way concerne the dispossessing of diuels Because all such supernaturall actions they proceed not at all from any power of nature but from the onely power of obedience By the onely efficacie of which obedientiall power euen any thing of euerie thing may easilie be effected although yet in an onely respect of the mightie Iehouah himselfe the sole and onely efficient thereof For albeit the Saints of the Lord namely Moses and manie others are saide to effect supernaturall actions yet therein wee must rightly vnderstand that onely the Lord alone he workes that by his Saints which he workes by himselfe And therefore in saying as you do that spirits or diuels they may be dispossessed from men by any created or naturall meanes you do therein very ignorantly auouch you wot not well what Exorcistes Yes sir I wot well what I say and am able to demonstrate the truth thereof by many examples Physiologus Let vs heare your examples which make for this matter Exorcistes With verie good will First therefore Iosephus verie plainely reporteth that when Titus and Vespasian besieged Ierusalem there was an Exorciste that time in the hoste who by a certeine stone in a ring deliuered many that were possessed of Satan Moreouer Eleazar the Hebrew as the said Iosephus recordeth he vsed certeine Exorcismes which were inuented and made by Salomon for the expelling of spirits and diuels namely ringes rootes herbes and such other like sensible matters But the stone in the ringe those rootes and those herbes they were onely created and meere naturall meanes therefore some onely created and meere naturall meanes it hath and may haue in it selfe an actuall power for the dispossessing of spirits and diuels Physiologus Why doe you not also alleage that which the said Iosephus and Aelianus also reporteth concerning the herbe Cynospastus being otherwaies called Aglaphotis which hath they say a certeine speciall operation for the powerfull expelling of spirits and
iustifying faith of Christs disciples did oftentimes ebbe and flowe with the moone because howsoeuer the same was alwaies inherently dwelling within their harts the efficacie thereof for that present was suddenly falne to a verie low ebbe And which more is we must by the purport of your speech be further perswaded that verie many whom Christ in the generall iudgement will finally and iustly reiect as workers of iniquitie they had once notwithstanding the true iustifying faith in themselues howsoeuer they finally fell from the same For many of them also did in Christs name as effectually and as powerfully driue foorth the diuels from people possessed as did any of the rest how holy soeuer And so by consequence howsoeuer the callings and gifts of God to saluation be without repentance verie manie notwithstanding they may and do loose their iustifying faith and finally fall from the grace of God This as it strengthneth verie shrewdly the popish opinion of falling from grace so doth it mightily weaken that vndoubted assurance of the sauing faith in all the elect Exorcistes Let it strengthen or weaken whatsoeuer it will verie certaine I am that the iustifying faith may effect such a worke Orthodoxus If you meane such a worke as your faith effected at Mahgnitton of late we are growne to an issue Howbeit if you imagine that the iustifying faith may miraculously driue foorth a diuell then all the elect how vnexpert soeuer they also are sufficiently able to cast foorth spirits and diuels if they please For they are all mutually interessed in the selfesame iustifying faith and do iointly participate with all the prerogatiues thereof whatsoeuer as well as any of the rest Yea then those other preachers also who seuerally and at sundrie times did deale with the partie possessed they might as effectually haue dispatched that matter as you did your selfe vnlesse haply you imagine them but reprobates concerning the faith Besides all this if the driuing out of diuels from men be as you would haue vs imagine the vndoubted effect of a iustifying faith it must necessarily folow that so manie as cannot effect such a worke they may doubt of their iustification in Iesus Christ. Yea and those other Preachers also who eftsoones before and with your owne selfe at that present attempted the matter in vaine they may begin to make some scruple of conscience concerning the soundnes of their iustification for their faith could effect no such worke Briefly if the powerfull expelling of spirits and diuels be in deed as your selfe doth auouch the essentiall effect of a iustifying faith then surely that selfesame effect so highlie surmounting verie many of the rest it would vndoubtedly haue beene reckoned vp in some one of those places at least where the other effects of that faith are purposely registred by the spirit of God Howbeit this powerfull expelling of diuels is not anie where mentioned amongst those other essentiall fruits of iustifying faith and therefore the same is no essentiall effect of anie such faith Exorcistes But in the xvj of Marke this powerfull expelling of spirits or diuels is principally put downe as an infallible effect of the faith of the Gospell For after our Sauiour Christ had spoken these words he that beleeueth and is baptized he shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned then he addeth foorthwith and these tokens shall follow them that beleeue In my name they shall cast foorth Diuels speake with new toongs take away Serpents drinke any deadly thing without hurt yea and but euen lay their hands on the sicke and they shall recouer Loe all these you see are most admirable eflects Yet such I assure you as doe vndoubtedly succeed a iustifying faith in Iesus Christ. Orthodoxus I doe greatly mislike your assurance for these matters how admirable soeuer in shew they are no essentiall effects of a iustifying faith Neither were they at any time absolutely or simply but after a sort as it were the signes or tokens of faith and serued only for that primitiue age wherein the Gospel of Christ was first to be preached abroad in the world That selfesame primarie preaching of the Gospell hauing by the vnsearchable prouidence of God such signes and tokens euen purposely annexed vnto it as trumpets or criers to summon all sorts of hearers vnto the kingdome of Christ. For euen as Moses his lawe in mount Sinai and throughout the wide wildernes did gaine a woonderfull auctoritie vnto it selfe by reason of the manifold miracles effected by Moses and Aaron which said miracles notwithhanding so soone as the people of Israell possessed the promised Land did foorthwith determine So surely those selfesame miraculous actions which in the primitiue church did credit and grace the Gospell of Christ so soone as the Gospell it selfe was vniuersally published abroad in the world they foorthwith did cease and grow out of vse By all which it is verie apparant that those admirable effects they were onely but temporarie and personall prerogatiues more especially appertayning to some speciall persons accordingly as it seemed good to the Lord to bestow them himselfe in the seuerall distributions of those his seuerall graces Howbeit because those speciall graces thus personally bestowed on some few did publikely tend to the publike profit of all the elect and for that those admirable actions so admirably effected by some one peculiar person did generally serue for an vndoubted confirmation of the faith in all it therefore pleased the holy Ghost in that place indefinitely to name the beleeuers themselues as though that which was done by some one or a few had beene generally effected by all the faithfull Exorcistes Howsoeuer he speakes but of one or a few of the faithfull very certeine I am that the miraculous actions mentioned there they are such essentiall tokens as do vndoubtedly succeed the sauing faith of the Gospel Orthodoxus That those tokens succeeded the preaching of the Gospel we do neuer deny but whether they do follow the preaching of the Gospel as the essentiall effects of that iustifying faith which mutually belongeth to all the elect is the very issue of the question betweene vs the which I am willing if you please that Maister Beza doe determine for vs both in this sort To another is giuen faith by the same spirit This is not that faith saith Beza which belongeth indifferently to all the beleeuers in Christ for the Apostle in this place entreateth onely of some certeine speciall gifts of the spirit and therefore this speciall faith it hath a speciall relation vnto the effectuall power of God in working of miracles so far foorth especially as some speciall persons endued with that special gift were especially directed therin by some secret motion from the spirit of God This therefore is that faith which we call in the schooles the miraculous faith whereof an expresse mention more especially is made in the seauenteene
of Mathew the sixteene of Mark and in the seuenth of Luke This miraculous faith is plainely distinguished yea sometimes seperated quite from that true sauing faith whose proper obiect is the good-pleasure of God the father for and concerning the iustification and glorification of all the elect in Christ effectually apprehended before by that their aforesaid sauing faith Finally this selfesame miraculous faith she hath also her seuerall doubtings and sundry imperfections as may plainely appeare in Moses and Aaron and in the disciples and for the which also euen Peter himselfe was sharpely rebuked of Christ. Thus farre Maister Beza Where he maketh you see those signes and tokens such onely effects as follow the preaching of the Gospel for the confirmation thereof but no essentiall fruits of a iustifying faith as your selfe very fondly imagine Exorcistes Whatsoeuer Maister Beza or your selfe may imagine very certeine I am that Christ speaketh there of that sauing faith which doth orderly succeed the orderlie administration of the word and sacraments saying thus Goe yee into all the world and preach the Gospel to euery creature He that beleeueth and is baptised he shal be saued he that beleeueth not shal be damned And euen then vpon this so solemne a determination concerning the sauing faith of the Gospel he addeth foorthwith by the copulatiue and the infallible tokens vndoubtedly succeeding that sauing faith saying thus And these tokens shall follow them that beleeue In my name they shall cast out diuels and so foorth Demonstrating very plainely vnto vs that the effectuall power for expelling spirits and diuels is an vndoubted effect of the iustifying faith Orthodoxus No such demonstration at all For Christ in that place doth onely declare what tokens should follow the preaching and faith of the Gospel but puts downe no essentiall fruits or effects of a iustifying faith as we shewed before and which may yet more plainely appeare if you rightly consider his maine purpose it selfe and the orderly course of his speech concerning the same The maine purpose of Christ was to allure the elect to a timely entertainement of the sauing faith of the Gospel and this he endeuoureth to do partly by an infallible promise of eternall saluation to all the beleeuers and partly by an ineuitable threatening of eternall damnation to all the vnbeleeuers thereof And now next for their further confirmation in that selfesame sauing faith of the Gospel he addeth certeine temporary and personall priuiledges as infallible tokens and pledges of that his eternall sauing power I meane the powerfull operation of many most admirable miraculous actions The which said personall prerogatiues our sauiour Christ did purposely bestow vpon some certeine speciall persons not that he would haue those personall prerogatiues reputed as essentiall effects of a iustifying faith but to be rather esteemed as temporary pledges or seales for the perpetuall establishment of his glorious Gospel According to that in the end of the chapter where it is said that the Apostles went foorth and preached euery where the Lord working effectually in euery of them and confirming the word with miracles following Thus then you may plainely perceiue how Christ putteth down those tokens as temporary pledges or seales of the perpetuall truth of his Gospel and no essentiall effects of the iustifying faith And therefore if you haue none other word else for your purpose but that one place of Christ where he telleth vs that this kind goeth not foorth but by praier and fasting the same You see will not serue your turne it being not ment at all of a iustifying faith as hath beene sufficiently shewed before Exorcistes Howsoeuer you conclude at your pleasure I will neuer be perswaded but that those tokens put downe by our sauiour there they are vndoubtedly the very essentiall effects of a iustifying faith Orthodoxus I conclude not at pleasure concerning this point neither do I put downe my owne priuate opinion but the publique consent of many most singular persons as may further be seene by their following testimonies First Chrysostome vpon that seuenteen of Mathew saith plainely thus Seeing these miraculous signes are not now wrought by the Church in our daies shall we therefore conclude that so many of the Christians as cannot possibly doe the like miracles they are vtterly destitute of faith God forbid we should so hardly censure the deere children of God The iustifying faith is now present among vs but that faith which was called the miraculous faith is ceased long since Againe Sebastian Meyer he saith it is necessarie we should distinguish this faith of miracles from the iustifying faith because of that which our Sauiour saith concerning some at the iudgement day who alleaging for themselues the miraculous faith shall notwithstanding the same be reiected of Christ. Bullinger in like maner he writeth thus Some vnderstand this place of the power of miracles and doe hold the faith which is spoken of heere for a particular faith appertaining to the Apostles themselues whom especially it behoued to confirme the preaching of the Gospell by their working of miracles Againe Moses Pellacherus vpon the selfesame Scripture doth make the miraculous faith an vndoubted efficient cause of expelling the diuell from the possessed childe Againe Aretius he telleth vs plainly that that which our Sauiour speaketh there of the remoouing of mountaines and of nothing impossible to them that beleeue it must necessarily be vnderstood of that miraculous faith whereof the Apostle elsewhere entreateth Master Caluin he saith that our Sauiour in that place speaketh properly of a particular faith the which as occasion requireth hath from the Lord it secret motions and is the same with that whereof the Apostle makes mention saying If I had all faith so as I could remooue mountaines out of their places and haue no loue I were nothing at all Briefly Musculus he writeth thus The casting out of diuels whatsoeuer men thinke is an action of faith Howbeit it would be considered of what faith the Lord speaketh For we know there be three kinds of faith The first is that faith whereby we beleeue things to be such as they are in the Scriptures propounded vnto vs as we heare in the Scriptures that there is but one onely true God and the same an almightie Creatour of all things This we beleeue by the Scriptures and this faith is properly called an historicall faith There is another faith whereby we beleeue the promises of God and do truely apprehend his great mercy and grace in Iesus Christ this properlie is called the instifying faith The third kind of faith is that whereby we doe firmely beleeue that there is nothing impossible to God and whereby also the minde it selfe by a speciall motion of the spirit of God is forciblie mooued to the powerfull effecting of some admirable matters and this is properly called the faith of miracles The first kinde of
the selfesame cause So then it is not the martyrdome it selfe but the cause of the martyrdome that maketh a martyr You are not therefore simply to reioice in suffering but in suffering especially for righteousnesse sake And who is it I pray you that can harme you at all if only you follow the thing that is good On the other side what praise is it vnto you if when you be iustly buffetted for your owne faultes as herein you haue been you take it patiently But if when you do wel which vndoubtedly you should do in yeelding submission if then I say you suffer euil vndeserued by vndergoing with patience the cynical censures of some giddy conceitours this is thankworthy and acceptable before the Maiesty of our eternall God And therefore this your primary respect for not submitting your selfe it is you see very fond and preposterous Exorcistes Yea but by this my submission I should giue our aduersaries great occasion to insult ouer the brethren afresh in farre better causes then this as we found by experience how highly they triumphed ouer the intended discipline of late by reason of Hackets Arthingtons and Copingers seductions Orthodoxus If your owne dealings in these your preposterous courses doe as deepely discredit the holy ordinance of praier and fasting as Hackets seduction disgraced in the iudgement of some the entended church discipline I hope then you will neuer account much lesse entitle them aduersaries to sincere religion howsoeuer opposite to these your practises that shal seeke by due meanes to suppresse the irregularity of your intemperate humour Otherwise if these your disordered attempts haue ministred iust occasion for any to insult ouer the brethren as you say afresh in far better causes then this when you see such fearfull effects to follow your fooleries you may neuer blame the insulters themselues but your owne indiscretion Howsoeuer I do aduise you in all loue to reckon this late-giuen occasion as the very principall among the rest of your sins and make it a perpetuall meanes to your better humiliation before God and men As for the inconsiderate and vnchristian insultings of any ouer good and Christian causes let not their euil dealings that way make you to constant in euil Exorcistes But yet sir by this so vnseasonable a submission of mine I should scandalize the zealous professours and offend sundry honorable and noble personages both Lords and Ladies with diuerse others of good estimation who fauouring rightly the reformation haue mightely affected my cause and bountifully mainteined my person and state Orthodoxus Your conscionable reiecting of an inueterate error and your zealous entertaining of a newly reuealed truth can euer scandalize such sincere professours as are zealously and rightly religious As for offending any honorable personages or others in any account who wishing reformation haue hetherto affected your cause and mainteined your person know this and know it for truth that if those honorable personages euen in a sincere regard of some holy reformation haue hitherto affected your cause so far foorth at the least as they supposed the same to be sound and good then doubt not at all but that they wil much more affect your holy and hoped conuersion so soone especially as their enlightned iudgements shall once but soundly perceiue the infallible truth Yea and which more is they will then be much more forewards in supporting your person and state then euer before Otherwise those your maintainers they might be supposed to affect your cause and to support your person in an onelie malcontentednes rather against the persons of some in authoritie then in any true mindednes towards reformation indeed And which more is you your owne selfe by persisting as you doe in your errour you may be supposed of all as you are shrewdly suspected of some to be rather their humorist in an onely respect of their hier then anie their approoued martialist to mannage these matters in any right reuerend regard of their honours This therefore you see is but a sielie respect to hold you from such an holy submission Exorcistes Yea but by such my submission I shoulde foorthwith depriue my selfe from all Ecclesiasticall functions For this is held an vndoubted truth among the preciser sort that a man so groslie falne doth make foorthwith a flat nullitie of his former ministerie Orthodoxus Put the case that some concerning this point are much more peeuishly precise then prudently wise will you therefore in an onely regard of their itching humours refuse to do good to your selfe and manie others of more temperate spirits For tell me I praie you who is able to make a flat nullitie in any mans ministerie but he alone who enableth and calleth whomsoeuer he will to the ministerie Exorcistes Verie true as you say respecting simplie his gifts and graces there is none able to make a flat nullitie in anie mans ministerie saue onely the Lord. Howbeit respecting the orderly execution and vse of those gifts the Church she may and she ought to make a flatte nullitie in the ministerie of such are groslie falne Orthodoxus If there be none other stoppage at all to this your submission but onely the feare of forgoing your ministerie this feare I hope it may soone be remooued For if none but the Lord be able to disable your gifts then none without warrant from the Lord is able to disable the orderly execution and vse of your gifts But no such warrant haue anie from the Lord in all the Bible Besides that if the Lord bestoweth and continueth his gracious gifts in anie being orderly called before to the ministerie for the edification of others who may without warrant disanull and discontinue the orderly execution and vse of those gracious gifts in anie being orderly continued in the ministerie for the edification of others For if vnfained repentance doth set an offendour in statu quo prius in his former estate with God and man notwithstanding any his former offences why should not an vnfained repentance set a poore minister being falne by occasion in statu quo prius in his former estate with God and man for the orderly vse of his ministerie notwithstanding anie his former offences Otherwise why did not the Church in former times disanull and discontinue the orderly execution and vse of gifts in Dauid in Peter in Paul in Iohn Marke in Demas and diuers other both ordinarie and extraordinarie persons In all whom did breake foorth no lesse apparant disorders then this one of yours yet the Lord continuing in them his gracious gifts the Church still enioyed the vse of those gifts Discharge you therefore a good conscience by testifying truely your vnfained submission and then if the Ecclesiasticall gouernors vpon aduised deliberation shall deeme it conuenient to emploie you afresh in the vse of your gifts let those your preciser sort set vpon them if they please for such their imployment of one so groslie offending In the meane time