not right and yet some founde whiche either maye haue there calling according to the word off god diuerse from that which is commonly vsed or els the lawfull callinge by the church ceasing haue it by an immediate calling from god Iff M. D. will be so ignorant as not to know how these two maye stand togither let him be ignorant if he delight in his blindnes what should he doo with a guide After he saith my distinction is not good off lavvfull and ordinarie for that whatsoeuer is lawfull in a churche established the same is ordinarie and for proufe hereoff he addeth that coÌ„mon reason teacheth it but what is that common reason it had bene good yow had set it downe This is a simple confutatioÌ„ which yow vse to proue that in an established church lawfull and ordinarie are all one And iff I should replie and saye that the distinction is good and that common reason teacheth soo if I light off as fauorable a reader as yow my proufe will be as good as yours â–ª but this is but to abuse the time and to delude the world And it is the more vntollerable that yow are not contente to haue said it once withowt proufe onlesse it be also quoted in the margent as thowghe we could not withowt some great damage want this highe sayinge And wher yowe make common reason the iudge hereoff althowghe she be an euill scholemistris oftentimes in these cases yet she teacheth here plainely against yow For iff a man will consider it in naturall thinges yt is euident in the birthe off children that some thing is lawful which is not ordinarie It is nor ordinarie for a woman to bring foorthe thre or fower children at once and yet it is lawfull And if this common reason be considered also in politicall thinges there it shall appeare likewise that thinges are lawfull in a well gouerned aÌ„d established coÌ„mon wealth which are not ordinaâ—rie As if order be taken that none shal clime the walles of the citie aÌ„d the citizens climinge the wall vpon the sodeine comming off the enemie driue him backe no maÌ„ can denie but this acte is lawfull and yet it is clere that it is not ordinarie being otherwise but in suche a case as this punishable But let these goo and let vs see how this oracle agreeth withe the word off god And first iff by a churche established yow meane a church which hathe one vniforme order grounded owt off the word off god yow take that for graunted which is the controuersie for we denie that the churche off England is so established But iff yow vnderstand by a churche established a church of god vvherin vvith other thinges well donne the corruptions which are in yt are by common consent off those which rule the churche agreed vppon it is manifest that in suche a churche there hath bene a calling lawful which was not ordinarie For before the comminge off our Sauior Christ it is confessed that there was amangest the Iewes aÌ„d in IerusaleÌ„ especially a churche of god established the ordinarie ministeries off the priestes and Leuites vsed thâ— prescribed sacrifices offred the law read and taught the corruptions of the churche were not the seuerall opinions of particular persons but the vniforme decrees off those vvhich had the gouernment And yet there the lord raised vp Simeon and Iohn Baptiste whose vocations being extraordinarie were notwithstanding lawfull And that there be no hole for M. D. to hide his bouldnes off castinge forthe whatsoeuer taketh him first in the heade it is to be shewed that in the moste orderlie established churches off god and moste purelie reformed according to the worde of god there haue bene ministers lawfull and yet not ordinary In the vvildernes the churche vnder the conduite off Moses and Aaron was for the owtward face exactlie gouerned according to the rule that god had giuen theroff and yet we reade off the 72. vpon whom the spirite of Prophesie fell vvhich vvas no ordinarie calling as that vvhich endured but for a time as the wordes of the texte howsoeuer they be otherwise translated do declare which saith that they added not to prophesie anie more When was the churche better established according to the rule off the worde of god then in Dauids time and yet then besides himselffe there vvere diuerse extraordinarie ministers For there was the Prophete NathaÌ„ and Gad withe others not off the Leuiticall order whiche onelie was the ordinarie callinge off the churche In the new Testament the churche off Antioche ceased not after it was established to haue the extraordinarie function off Prophetes And onless M. D. vvill saie that all these functions were vnlawfull he must confesse that in an established churche ordinarie and lawfull are not all one And albeit in these times vvhere there is a churche established according to the vvord off god the lord dothe not vse to raise vp anie suche extraordinarie ministerie neither is it to be looked for yet yt is a thinge vvhich may come to passe and vvhiche hathe nothinge in the vvorde off god to the contrarie In steade of that yow saye Iff any church in England doo electe there minister otherwise then the lawes off the churche dothe permitt it can not be excused off schisme yow should haue said otherwise then the worde off god dothe permitte For iff it be shewed that that order established be corrupte and the other vvhiche they folowed in the calling off their minister according to the vvord of god then they neede not to be afraid off the slaunder off schisme And vvhere yovv saye suche and suche parishes muste be loked vnto verely they nede not therin be ashamed vvho looke vpon them But If eare the looke yow meane is to put owt their eye in taking awaie the Minister that they should be the lesse hable to looke vnto your vnfaith full dealing vvithe the churches off god Yow vnderstand not yow saie what I meane when I saie that the choise off the Minister by the churche is suche as the examples off the scripture do shew to haue bene before the Eldershipp and gouernment off the churche be established I know in deede these thinges before haue bene vnhearde off by yow whose ignorance the churche must rue And now when yow are tolde it in so plaine wordes as I nothinge dowbte but a childe off nine yeres oulde dothe vnderstand yt yow can not yet comprehende it Yt was the practise off the Pharises against our Sauior Christe when they had nothing to answere to charge him that he spake not plainlie but propounded thinges dowbtfully that men coulde not tell where to haue him For they come vnto him and saye how longe doest thow holde vs in suspence Iff thow be Christ tell vs plainlie as thowghe he had not tolde them plainlie before This Pharisaicall practise the D. vseth against me diuerse times gropinge at noone dayes and complaining that I am not plaine and open enoughe and going
greatly in suspition off error It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one be trewe for the moste parte which is the nature off a prouerbe And in makinge off lawes the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expediēte and not that whiche maie be good some times For otherwise it might be saied the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election but his chapleine because yt may happen that he is more hable to medle in that matter then the bishoppe It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God to accounte off yt as off an ignorante multitude For onlesse yowe meane the churche when yowe saye then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant yowe speake beside the matter seing wee doe not permitte either examination or election off the ministers to euery multitude and blinde assemblie but vnto those onely whiche make an open and cleare profession off the trewthe Therefore yowre glorious and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes are affectioned and aspire somewhether For yf they preceded off the feare off God yt can not be but that feare of God and spirite of humilitie whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche whose seruantes they owghte to be And when yow saie or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche the voice is straunge and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt especially seinge it touchethe as yowe thinke the cause But yowe wander still and the prouer be yowe confute not For let yt be that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche whiche proportion beinge more vnequall then that betwene the sonne and the mone carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good yet if the churche haue anie eie at all that beinge ioined with his will see better then his alone And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe not to compare one good eie with manie bad but to shewe that that whiche alone i◠hable to doe somewhat withe company and helpe is hable to doe it better And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte that he can leaue no thinge vnseene and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe yowe haue yet browghte nothinge to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others in the examination off the minister S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the churche off God in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese Apollos was instructed and tawghte of a powre handycraftes man and his wiffe In the counsell of Nice a simple man and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe bothe ouerturned ād turned a Philosopher whome all the 318. Bishopes coulde not moue bothe S. Paule and Apollos and the 318. Bishopes were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges wherin they were aided and desired to be aided off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off that they can see so clearly into the fitnes off a minister that the churche off God can not bothe see that whiche they see and that also whiche they haue ouerseene Belike yt is because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte then euer any were and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before And if the churches were tawghte of them wherein they are for the moste parte smalliest beholdinge vnto them as the plentifull knowledge of the churche shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation Which yff it were well considered of him yt semeth that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise Still yowe confute your shadowe for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhich is to be chosen all the reste vvhich haue interest in that election vvill giue theyr voices What worde is here which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections which are made by her selfe alone yowe haue therfore picked a quarel to speake off the welbestowing of offices onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes I see no ende of yt sure I am yt is no answere vnto that which yt pretendeth For my parte I will not contrary that yow speake of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince And I am well assured that some of them be bestowed of moste worthye men But yt is good for princes to haue as it were eares off horne againste suche sweete songes as these be and notwithstanding them to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the com̄on wealth for the Ecclesiasticall charges which her maiestie bestoweth althowghe they be off the greateste porte yet they will appeare not off the greatest charge vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely that is to saye great charge and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche not bearinge the churche but borne of yt euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe And those also as I thinke are not chosen off the prince alone but named onlie and chosen off the canons off that sea wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe and confirmed off the Archbishoppe But lett yt be here obserued that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing although falsely without saying any thing against yt to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes whiche he taketh head ministers muche more maie he doe it in the other ecclesiasticall orders which he accounteth vnder the bishope here first I woulde knowe wether he will stande to this or no or whether hauing nothinge to answere he vsed this for a shifte Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte this translatiō of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate ād whether for there tēporalties as it wer for a messe of rise potage they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated to be offered where yt is not asked to be geuen where it is not receiued And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be that they maie kepe thother or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe The election off ministers committed
of the electe church of God yet that foundation alwaies remaineth that when the question is of an others mans election God knovveth vvho are his So that yow can draw no argumeÌ„t from his election which is vncertaine vnto vs to conclude a certeine election vnto the ministerie Againe why doo yow saie he that is a membre off the inuisible maye be a minister in the visible as thowghe the inuisible church were off some higher nature then the visible or as thowghe the trew membres off the visible church did not make one misticall bodie off Christ with the inuisible Therfore when all commeth to all the reason is nothing els but he is a membre off the church ergo he is fit to be a minister off the church which is very absurd For by this meanes all good order off discipline is troubled in howse and in common wealthe The maister which hath bene deceiued off his seruant which he moste put in trust as for example in the office off stewardship if he giue good tokens off repentance must off necessitie restore him to his place For will he seclude him from his stewardship whom Christ dothe receiue into his kingdome and shall not we think him to be a meete officer in his maisters howse albeit he haue committed adulterie with his mistres which is a membre off the electe churche off Christ And this reason standing common wealthes must goo vpside downe for besides that all those lawes are condemned which debarre men from certeine freedomes and honours which haue bene stained with especiall vices as he that is once conuinced off periurie from bearing witnesse at any tyme c. there maie none either traitor or murtherer be put to death if he be repentante For his pardon is caselie pleaded by the Answ rule that if he be meete to dwell in heauen he is meete to remaine vppon earth and if the lord giue him euerlasting liffe should we denie vnto him this traÌ„ssitorie liffe And not that onely but if he had had an office before it is meete he shoulde be restored to it againe If this be an absurde and anabaptisticall kind off reasoninge in the discipline off the howse and gouernment off the common wealth how is it not the same in the discipline of the church And iff yow sticke so hard to the example off God it is not hard to shew how that the lord remitting the faulte vnto his children vppon their repentance hathe notwithstandinge kept them in sharpe discipline for their faultes all the daies off their liffe bothe in there owne persons and sometimes in there childreÌ„s and in all that belonged vnto them so that yf yow will needes tie the church to the example off goddes mercie and forgiuence that dothe not onelie not hinder these chastismentes and church discipline but also extendeth it further then the church or the coÌ„mon wealth may doo The holie goste by Iethro prescribinge what officers should be chosen dothe not onelie require that they should feare God which is to saie be of good religioÌ„ be wise and valiaÌ„t but also requireth that they be trustie which as appeareth by other places off the Scripture where this here commaunded was put in execution signifieth suche as were faithfull and trustie to the commonwealth and which had of their former life giuen good argumentes off there fastnes that way Therfore if in choise to the greate and weightie charges off the coÌ„mon wealth it is not enoughe that they be of good Religion able also for their wisdome and courage off minde to execute vnlesse they haue bene founde faithfull in that estate wherin they haue liued before how muche more owght that to be obserued in committing the greatest charge that is vnder the sonne which is the Ministerie off the worde And if in common wealthes men vvill committe no greate trust vnto him which hathe deceiued the trust which was put vppon him how much more owght that to be obserued in the church Where as the losse and daunger is greater so owght the trust to be slower and the parties to whom it shoulde be committed more vnsuspected And yet for further confirmation he must vnderstand that for as muche as our Sauiour Christ and S. Paule require that a minister off the word off God should be faithfull in his office as those to whom the choise belongeth owght to haue regard to his former sobrietie continencie in liffe and other vertues to induce them selues to a good persuasioÌ„ off him towching those vertues so owght they vppon his former life to gather suche argumentes of his faithfullnes and trust as therby they may be able to meintaine a stronge and mightie presumption off the faithfullnes which is to come vvhich thinge vvhen they can not doo in one vvhose vntrustines is freshe before their eies they can not haue sufficient testimonie to perswade their conscience that he is of that trust to whoÌ„ they may comÌ„it the church of god For if they looke vpon repentance vvhich he professeth it coÌ„meth alwaies to minde that countenaÌ„ce the eies do lie oftentimes and mouth oftenest off all And albeit vppon good and likelie tokens the church owght to thinke it a trew repentaunce yet it can not be so sure thereoff as it is off the vnfaithfulnes So that in vveighing the repentaunce which is vncertaine vvith the counterpoise of his vnfaithfulnes that is certaine it will be harde to conceiue that strenght of opinion off his â—â—faithfulnes wherupon they may aduenture to put him againe in trust with the church At the leste if there be one fit for the Ministerie which neuer was stained with that fault all men must needes graunt that he is meeter to satisfie the consciences off the chusers then the other vvhich the Ans denieth And as before I haue shewed that the exaÌ„ple of our Sau. Christ in putting S. Paule and S. Peter into the ministerie is not to be folowed off vs So vppon the matter I haue here alledged it may easelie appeare vvhy That is to say for as muche as he knew the harte off man and sawe their cogitations longe before they were conceiued he needed not any time to trie how they vvould behaue them selues in their ministerie nor any either Testimonies or argumentes of former liffe to helpe his persuasion off their fitnes thereunto Therfore he knowing both by the fulnes off the spirite off discretion gyuen hym vvithowt measure and by his diuine knowledge how faithfullie they vvould employe themselues in that mynistrye mighte vvell open the dore vnto those againste vvhom the churche owghte to kepe yt shutte If any man vvoulde here excepte againste this answer vvith the example of Iudas vvhich did so traiterously behaue hym selfe in his office yt ys not vvorthe the answer For vvho knoweth not that that was doone that the Scripture mighte be fulfilled and that for that cawse our Sauiour Christe forseinge the treason to come did notwithstandinge gyue him a place in
seruant restreining their seruice off ech off them vnto the residue off their fellowes Againe the circumstance in S. Math. and Marck that the other ten disdained at the tvvo brethren and which S. Luke expresseth that the contention vvas amongest the 12. vvhich off them might seeme to be greatest do manifestly ouerthrow that saying For if they had not desired to be aboue the residue off their fellowes there had bene no cawse off disdaigne And the strife was not what gouernment they should vse ouer the people but which amongest them selues should be greatest Wherupon onles we will say that our Saui. Christ laied his plaister beside the sore and spake from the pourpose off that the cawse required yt must be confessed that this domynion forbidden is in respect off one minister ouer an other Whereby him that sitteth at the table he would haue the people vnderstanded he is grosly ouerseen for so by the testimony off our S. Christ the people should be greater then he him self seing he affirmeth that he vvhich sitteth is greater then he vvhich vvaiteth For noting the dignitie off a minister by that vsually annexed vnto maisters to sit at the table while their seruaÌ„tes wait he teacheth that forsomuch as he their maister to whom it apperteined to sit and be waited vpon was vnto them rather as a seruant waiting then a maister sitting at the table much more they being fellowes should serue one an other Where yow charge me for not truly translating the greeke word I appele to the maisters off that toung whether I haue followed the naturall etimolâ—gie Where yow ad that it signifieth the cheif ruler or guide in euery busines I acknowledge yow for no Lexicon and being in controuersie it owght to haue bene proued Stephen doth affirme that they vvhich translate it a prince haue no ground that he can tell off What cheifty S. Peter had amongest theresidue off the Apostles shal be considered in a more fit place it shall be sufficient here to haue noted that the Ans exposition off the word first is the same with Hardinges and my exposition which he here confuteth alone with the bishops which he confirmeth by good argumentes where he denieth that S. Peter was Prince of the Apostles or Lord ouer them or had power or dominion ouer them Then it ouerthroweth Musculus For where he saith that Peter vvas found in many places to haue bene cheif amongest the rest the D. by this exposition maketh him cheif symply in all places Thus it may appeare that yowr cawse findeth small harting at Musc hand Yow say my exposition is contrary to the truth and iudgement off the learned but yow shew onely that it agreeth not with certein interpreters iudgement that the truth is otherwise yow shew not If yow had shewed the fyrst that it is contrary to the truth the second had bene needles I propounded that doubtfully and although that significatioÌ„ of the preposition hath good warrant owt of the vse off that toung yet I will not stand at the armes and with so learned interpreters for it Howbeit when I gyue place yet S. Luke may not gyue back who vsing the simple verbes withowt the preposition maketh manifest that there is no peruersenes or deformitie off gouernment noted for if he shoulde meane to set forth a peruersenes or deformitie off gouernement and hauing so many wordes to doo it with yet did not I can not see how he should haue bene voide off some fault Where yow say he must be expounded by thother Euangelistes that can by no meanes be admitted For it commeth often to passe in the greek toung that compound verbes are put for simples but that simples haue a compound signification the vse off that toung will not suffer For the vse off the word in the Actes and S. Peter beside that it is not straunge for one word in scripture to be taken diuersly that place maketh nothing to proue this signification For what vvord soeuer S. Luke had vsed in the Actes yet forsomuch as that action came from those vncleane spirites it must needes be disordered Therfore the peruersenes off it doth not appeare in the word but in the subiect from whence it came And if a man would make that word to signifie a deformitie becawse that rule was beyond measure by the same reason the wordes Prince Rule Power names off lawfull autoritie should be condemned For that a scribed vnto Deuills they are allwaies tyrannicall And Beza also here alledged in that place saith the vvord noteth not any dominioÌ„ there but onely that they gat the vpper hand of those exorcistes which when it may be taken aswell in good part as in the euill the Answ can by no meanes help hym selfe therewith For that off Saint Peter where he saith it is manifest that it signifieth violent dominion I graunt that that rule which it signifieth is violent in a Pastor but that which is violeÌ„t in him ouer his flock is moderate and lawful in a Prince ouer his subiectes and so S. Peter kept the same distinction off gouernement off the ciuill Magistrate and the Minister which he had learned off our Sauiour Christ For if he ment by that word a dominion simply tirannicall he vvould haue opposed yt vnto a moderate dominion not as he did vnto being an example off the flock As if he should say yow must not beare dominion ouer yowr flockes as Princes vvhich vvith diuers notes of their magnificence get autoritie ouer their subiectes but yow not hauing thes meanes to get reuerence and autoritie amongest yowr flockes must so much the more enforce yowr selues to all commendable example off life Wherunto agreeth that which Saint Paul vvriteth vnto Timothe whom he exhorteth to kepe vp his autoritie in the churche and deliuer him self from contempt vvhich his yowth vvas subiect vnto by being a patron off good vvorckes vnto his churche And Beza in that place saying by those vvordes care and no kingdome ys commytted vnto Mynisters and that by that place yt appeareth that Pastors may not beare rule ouer their flockes after the manner off kinges doth sufficiently declare that the word doth not signifie simply a tirannicall dominion but one such as agreing vnto kinges is notwithstanding vnsitting for Pastors For he saith kingdome and Kinges not Tyrannie nor Tyrantes which he owght to haue saied if he would haue confirmed yowr interpretation Beside that Stephen putteth both the simple and compound to signifie one thing that is a simple dominion withowt any suche taile off tyrannie as is here imagined Yow may deny if yow will that the snow is white By all thes places must needes be vnderstanded those which Musc off whom yow speake doth interprete but yowr self had sayed before that he expoundeth those three off S. Math. Marck and Luke therfore although yow added not three yet that muste needes be vnderstanded And in this yowr shift yow breake yowr