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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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although he write very directly against the Pope popery yet in many respects doth he shew himself a papist as in following of corrupt translations in the places of scripture which he alledgeth in misapplying many of them contrary to the true sense meaning of the holy Ghost wherein although some warni●g is giuen by a few marginall notes added of purpose and signed wit● this letter yet cannot the godly reader for all that be too wearie and circumspect in the particular consideration of the same Faults escaped Pag. 2. for euery read euery Pag. 3. for iu read ni Pa. 4. for Iunius read Fumus Pag 7. for 〈…〉 A COVRTEOVS conference with the English Catholicks Romane about the six Articles ministred vnto the Seminarie priestes wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie and the principles of their owne religi●n that the Pope cannot depos● her Maiesty or relea●e her subiects of their Allegiance vnto her NOw then to proue my first proposition that the Pope and all the Bishoppes and Priestes are subiect by the law of God vnto the temporall magistr●te All persons subiect to the temporal magistrat in whose realme and dominions they doe dwell thus I prooue Salomon Prou. 24. saith my sonne feare the Lord and King and intermeddle not or be not among detractors for their distruction wil arise sodainly and who knoweth the ruine of them both Likewise Saint Paul the Apostle in his writing to the Romaines thus exhorteth or rather commandeth them Chap. 13. Let euery soule be subiect to the higher power for there is noe power but from God but those which are were ordained by God c. So then he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God but they which doe resist do get themselues dānation for princes be no feare of good worke but of il but wilt thou not feare the power doe well and then shalt thou haue praise thereby for he is the minister of God vnto thee to good but if thou haue done ill then feare for he beareth not the sword without cause he is the minister of God a reuenger in wrath to him that doth ill And therfore ye must needes be subiect not onely for wrath but also for conscience for therefore doe yea also pay tribute for they are the ministers of God seruing for this very purpose Also in his epistle to Titus Cap. 3. he writes warne them to be subiect to principalities powers to obey their commandements Moreouer S. Pet●r from whom the Pope clameth his mo●arc●● thus writeth in his first vniuersall epistle Cap. 2. Be ye ●ub ect to euery humain creature for the Lord whether it be 〈…〉 most excellent or vnto the presidents as sent 〈◊〉 him to the reuenge of euil deedes but to the praise of 〈◊〉 good because so is the will of God that ye doing well ●ay make m●re the ignorance of the vnskilfull as free men 〈…〉 as men that haue libertie for a cloake of naughtinesse but a● the bondmen of God and anone after feare God and honour the King Ye do see how the old and new law doe agree in the supreeme authoritie of princes ouer all persons borne or abiding within their dominions Paul vsing this vniuersall euery excepting none and Salomon and Peter an indefinite in this place equall vnto an vniuersall And Peter and Paul doe in expresse wordes giue vnto him the supreeme Emp●re of administring iustice in punishing the wicked rewarding the good and that he is so the Apostle doth proue by that ●ll men pay him tribute the which also he commandeth to be paide and also chargeth all men to be obedient vnto him and not for feare onely lest otherwise the prince would make them smart but also for cōscience sake because the● are in duety bound so to do for that God had ordained them to be his lieuetenants in gouernement And therefore if they were not obedient vnto them they must needs be accounted reputed for rebels vnto God that would not accept him for their soueraigne whom God had set ouer them And Peter to suppres the carnal cogitation of the Iewes vnto whom he wrot that thought that the messias had enfranchised them by his redēption from al subiection to man also to preuēt the proud opinion of the clergy that should come after who would clame exemption from earthly subiection because they were appointed ordained dispensers of the misteries of the Messias he flatly affirmeth the claming of such libertie to be nothing else put a plaine pretence cloake for their naughtinesse For he would they shoulde remēber that although they were deliuered by Christ from the bondage tiranny of sin death the Deuill yet they remained still his his fathers bondmen therfore ought duetifully to obey still the ciuill magistrats whom God hath placed in his owne throne his king his lieuetenant ouer them And therefore Salomon in the place afore alleadged An appellation in secular causes cannot be made to the Pope ioyneth them together saying feare God and the King God principally saith Lyra writing on that place and secundarily the King who is his Vicar in temporall things This being so I cannot chuse but much maruaile at that saying in Cap. Licet de sor comp that an appellation may be made from all princes temporall Yea such as do acknowledge no superiour in temporalities when none other can be had and the matter is of som weight For if as Tertullian saith in his Apologie that there is no man aboue the Emperour et quem soli Deo subiicio and whome I make vnder none but God in annother place of the same Apologie he saith of the Emperours of Rome in Dei solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes et super omnes deos quid in cum super omnes homines they are vnder God only vnto whom they are seconde after whom they are first before all men and aboue all gods and why not seeing they are aboue all men And againe if it be true that the graue and learned light of our Lawiers Bracton that liued almost foure hundreth yeares agoe in the raigne of Henry the thirde doth affirme in the beginning of his booke that a King cannot be a King if he haue any superiour in those things that doe appertaine vnto his crowne and kingdome and may not haue in his kingdome any equall much lesse any superiour especially in administration of iustice that it may be saide of him Great is our Lorde greate is his power c. And that he doth aff●irme him to be the vicar of God on earth This place Psal 14● 5 〈…〉 o●●od I can not see by what right or reason an appellation in a secular cause can be made from an Emperour King or any supreame temporall magistrate vnto the Pope seeing he is not theire superiour in temporalities For all the worlde knoweth that an