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A62668 To receive the Lords Supper, the actual right and duty of all church-members of years not excommunicate made good against Mr. Collins his exceptions against The bar removed, written by the author : and what right the ignorant and scandalous tolerated in the church have to the Lords Supper declared : many thing belonging to that controversie more fully discussed, tending much to the peace and settlement of the church : and also a ful answer to what Mr. Collins hath written in defence of juridical suspension, wherein his pretended arguments from Scripture are examined and confuted : to which is also annexed A brief answer to the Antidiatribe written by Mr. Saunders / by John Timson ... Timson, John.; Timson, John. Brief answer to the antidiatribe written by Mr. Saunders. 1655 (1655) Wing T1296; ESTC R1970 185,323 400

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Church I proceed unto his sixt Argument If there may be some in the Church not yet cast out with whom the Communion of the Church cannot be pure then there may be some in the Church not Excommunicate whom the Officers may not without sin admit to the Lords Supper But there may be some such in the Church Ergo His proof of the proposition is 1. That it is the duty of the Officers of the Church to keep the fellowship of the Church pure This he saith none will deny but if any be inclined to deny it he should doe well First To think to what end the rod of discipline is put into their hands Secondly How to expound 1 Cor. 5.7 and those many other Texts that look this way pag. 86 87. 2. That it is their special duty to keep the fellowship of the Church pure as to this Ordinance as this was proved before from 1 Cor. 5.8 so it 's c●ar from reason it 's apparent that of all other Ordinances this Ordinance alone is appointed for such as have something of grace in them Answ 1 I grant that it is the duty of the Rulers of the Church to use all necessary and lawful means to preserve the purity of Church Communion in all acts of publike Worship I grant that they are in a special manner to take care to keep the Communion of the Church pure as to this Ordinance of the Sacrament but still I deny that this is to be done by suspension from the Sacrament and allow them the priviledges of all other publique Communion in the Worship of God as members That 1 Cor. 5.7 8 13. hath been examined already and proves no such thing let it be proved that the Communion of that Church was leavened for admitting one that was scandalous to the Sacrament or that their Communion is that Ordinance was polluted by their connivence towards him or that to deny him the Sacrament was a sufficient remedy both to reform the offender and to purge out the old leaven wherewith they were leavened if the Text will bear none of these things what is it quoted for The Rod of Discipline it 's expressed clearly from the text was to reform the sinner with the salvation of his soul and the Church by doing her duty is correcting with this merciful end did clear and purge her self from that sinful connivence and toleration of such a one And if this purging was not by excommunication then I am out if it was then Mr. Collins is quite out in quoting it and he hath said nothing in laying the foundation of his argument as to the keeping of the Sacramental Communion pure by Suspension I beseech you mark for in this very argument many are very much perplexed as if the only end of discipline were to preserve the Communion of the Church pure only at the Sacrament and as if the greatest impurity of Communion in the Church lay in the admitting of ignorant unregenerate scandalous brethren unto the Sacrament whereas I dare be bold to affirm that to receive the Sacrament is as much the duth of any such as they are Church-members and within as any other duty of publike worship whatever and their obedience in that observance is as well pleasing and acceptable unto the Lord they coming as prepared as they can as any observance in the Church And if it was not for the correcting of such things that are in their own nature sinful such as are nominated 1 Cor. 5.11 there would be no need of Church discipline The main end of discipline is to reform that which is evill in Church-members and to encourage unto well doing that every member may be obedient in all things And for Mr. Collins to say that the Sacrament alone is appointed for such as have something of grace in them is only his bare saying and doth clash with the command of Christ as also with the peace edification charity and unity of the Church But he sayes further The Word is called the bread of life and it is to be offered to dead souls Heathens were ever admitted to hear and profane persons are the objects of discipline The Excommunicate may hear and ought to be admonished as brethren That he knows not wherein the Officers can have any work to keep the Communion of a Church pure if not in this Ordinance a● to this the Scripture saith it cannot be pertaked of worthily without examining our selves and discerning the Lords Body It 's true Answ 1 the Word is the Bread of Life and doth quicken dead souls where God gives the blessing doth it follow that the Sacrament the visible Word of Life is not appointed unto that end where God gives the same blessing Heathens may hear true What then therefore Church-members may not receive Or 2. Therefore Church-members may hear but the question is whether he will allow a Christian to hear as a member or as a Heathen The profane are the objects of discipline What them Must they not pray hear receive untill they be cast out by it Are they objects of nothing else How are they objects of discipline that were never admitted unto the Sacrament Can you suspend them from that they never had wherein are such more objects of discipline then those that are without who may hear and pray and be present at every Ordinance as well as the other that are within Then he saith The Excommunicate may hear and ought to be admonished as brethren Very good it 's well the Excommunicate may have the title of Brethren but as ill that those in the Church whom we cannot charge with obstinacy untill it be Juridically tryed shall have the odious tearms of Hogs and Dogs profane c. He knows not wherein the Officers of a Church can have any work to keep the Communion of the Church pure if not in the Sacrament What doth all their work lye in that Answ 1. Is no care to be had how men profane all the other Ordinances by their sleeping talking laughing and disturbing the Minister and others in holy Worship 2. Is not care to be had that the doctrine be holy and sound even the Word of the Lord that is taught That the Worship of Prayer be performed with soundnesse of words sutable to the necessities of the people and with such devotion and affection becoming Worship 3. Is not care to be had that the Sacraments be rightly administred according unto the institution without superstitious addings unto or detracting from them 4. Is not care to be had to admonish rebuke the unruly and to excommunicate the obstinate to reform and amend them in order to their spiritual good And is this and the former no work if the Officers may not suspend from the Sacrament only The truth is he puts so much in this that he makes nothing of all other work that the Scriptures clearly teach allow him but suspension which he hath unnecessarily ingaged himself to prove and he
the judgement of any able Divines by my opinion wherein I dissent from them it must be the simplicity of truth and the justnesse of what I maintain only that bean me up against those I have to deal with in this controversie I am a meer naked man that am ingaged with men of compleat harness and arms that History Arts and Tongue can furnish them withall I must confesse I am strongly perswaded of the truth of what I have writ in this controversie and that it is the onely way to bring the Churcher peace and truth together and for Sions sake I can have no rest but am drawn on to doe things not so well becoming my rank and calling in the Church I beg your pardon I hope some will confesse they can see something of God in it excuse me for it is not so much the judgement of Divines as the Scripture grounds that will satisfie my spirit in this thing Next pag. 30. Mr. Collins saith But if they be to examine themselves no more then whether they discern the Lords Body we conceive it enough for discerning must imply knowledge 1. To know the Lords Body Sacramentally 2. As the Lords Body 3. Acknowledge of the sign and thing signified in the Sacrament 4. Acknowledge of the two natures of Christ and of what he hath done and suffered for me 5. And of the nature of the Sacrament and what is held forth in it to the soul From hence he saith will easily follow an answer to the sixt query That ignorant persons though by profession they do own the true Religion yet are not in a capacity to examine themselves so as to prevent the judgement c. I grant that every one that comes to this Ordinance Answ 1 should be able to discern the Lords body at least notionally by the outward signes and that the thing signified by the instituted signes is the same and that the bread and wine is to be received in remembrance of the death of Christ whose bloud was shed for remission of sins but for to know the two natures of Christ and what he hath done and suffered for me and to understand the nature of the Sacrament distinctly and what is held out in it to the soul is more then the Apostle taught the Church of Corinth in order to their receiving and therefore these requisites require further proof before he can conclude any thing from them In charity I judge that there is not any that live under any painful Preachers but are so well instructed as to understand that the Sacrament is a holy Ordinance of God appointed for the good of their souls in general And that accordingly they humbly and reverently make their addresses unto it to receive the outward signes in remembrance that Christ shed his bloud to save sinners c. and this is upon the matter as much as the Apostle requires unto worthy receiving let it be proved that such a receiving was ever blamed or punished in the holy Scriptures if it cannot be proved why doe men bring such needlesse troubles and distractions in the Church by their own traditions It was not so much the ignorance of the Corinths that was punished as their profane actions which they were guilty of in the time of receiving it 's a question whether their ignorance simply were punished at all any otherwise then accompanyed with those horrible effects the which doth very rarely touch the worst of our Congregations in the Church let Mr. Collins better consider of these things before he answer them for although many of ours should be more ignorant then they of Corinth yet so long as they doe not openly profane the Ordinance by their actual miscarriages at the time of worship as the Corinthians did it doth not follow that they eat and drink unworthily and so their own damnation as they of Corinth It 's true also that the Lord may justly punish persons for their ignorance under the means But doth it follow that therefore men may too with debarring them from the Sacrament I think not untill by some clear ground of Scripture Mr. Collins or some other can prove the Eldership may And I shall intreat them to make it good with the greatest strength they can for otherwise they must look to be baffled in it so long as they grant them Church-members I shall now see what Mr. Collins excepts against my answer to the eight query that is Whether a carelesse incapable neglect of self-examination doth excuse and give a writ of ease from that precept Doe this in remembrance of me He saith If I can prove this an universal precept that concerns every individuall person that is baptized and of years of discretion he may tell me that such neglect makes them doubly guilty c. pag. 31. He saith further That he conceives that precept onely to concern the disciples of Christ and none but true disciples I wonder what Mr. Collins will make of ours that are baptized Answ and externally at least adhere to the true religion are they Pagans If not then they are disciples and followers of Christ by profession And upon his own grant come under that precept Do this in remembrance of me I am far from going about to divide these duties I would have them examine and come too yet the neglect of the one doth not excuse from the other a man must not onely goe and be reconciled with his brother but he must come and offer his gift also He saith It will not much trouble him what I have said from Matth. 28.19 20. the Apostles were bound to call upon those they preacht unto to observe all Christs commands either that proves the they were to call upon Pagans to come to the Sacrament or else to call upon all to observe such things that he had commanded them respectively and then it will still remain to prove that Christ hath commanded an ignorant person to come to the Sacrament It 's very true Answ 1 for to avoid the trouble he is not willing to reach the argument as you may see pag. 23. Bar removed the argument was drawn from the charge of Christ to his Apostles in order to them that came under baptism not to the Pagans they preached unto but to them that by their preaching were converted and added unto the Church by baptism Christ chargeth them to teach his Church to observe and doe all whatever he hath commanded them and loe he will be with them alwayes Where are the Apostles bid to teach the Heathen as such to observe all that he hath commanded He gives his statutes and his judgements unto Israel as for the Heathen they have not known his laws This very charge of Christ is just the language of God to the Church in Moses and the Prophets upon the like encouragement of a blessing As Circumcision brought all the uncircumcised under all observances of the old administration even the Passeover upon their lives So
examine himself and so let him come Philip put it upon the Ethiopian Eunuch Answ to examine whether he believed with all his heart or no in order unto baptism And I think that was more then the other of Paul to the Corinths Baptism to men of years was upon the condition of a personal faith without which they might not be baptized implyed by this If thou believest with all thy heart thou mayst otherwise not but there is no such thing in order to the Supper they were to examine themselves and so come it cannot be reasonably conceived of that if they neglected this private duty they should not come for it was their duty to come together to celebrate the Supper but not to profane it for the worse Profession of faith was a publick duty in order to baptism without which they could not be baptized but examination but a private duty left to God and our own consciences which no publick officers have to doe with concerning others but to instruct and to exhort unto the duty c. they have not the like warrant to require an account whether the private hath been performed much lesse to debar them upon a supposal of non-performance or prejudge of their incapacity before hand and so discourage from coming together for which we have not one syllable of warrant but I have spoken enough to this already Remember the abuse of the Brazen Serpent He saith The children of the legally unclean were not forbid circumcision but the unclean man might not eat the Passeover The unclean during his uncleannesse Answ 1 might not circumcise his child circumcision being instituted a token of the Covenant which an unclean man might no more defile and make unclean then any other religious service And what though it were to be done the eight day it might be rejourned for a week upon the same reason as the Passeover was for a month and circumcision in another case for forty years we know the rule in cases of necessity God will rather have mercy then sacrifice There is no legal uncleannesse in the Church now and therefore this doth not so much as reach the argument and indeed his other two are as little for his turn he must finde a better answer then so or tell us where to finde one or else the argument will cleave so close that he will be forced to narrow Infant baptism unto the holy Supper or enlarge the Supper unto Infant Baptism or be irrational and absurd in so flat a contradiction as hath been hinted And to prevent some mistake let me intreat the Reader carefully to consider That although I have said that more is required unto the Supper then unto Baptism It is to be understood in the Church of persons that are Church-members by nature But of Aliens I conceive more is required of them unto baptism then of Church-members unto the Supper especially when they were members by birth priviledge The ground is this because a publick profession of faith is necessary for the admitting of a Heathen into the visible Catholick Church by baptism And so of his entring the Gospel Covenant for himself and seed but to them that are in Covenant by birth it is otherwise their Covenant right remains untill it be forfeited by renouncing the Covenant or hating to be reformed by the Churches just censures And while they are in the Covenant and in the Church they may not be denyed the external priviledges thereof although they be transgressors of the Covenant c. But to proceed and come more close to the query in hand namely Whether there be any thing in the nature end action language of the Sacrament incongruous to the unregenerate in the Church receiving in 1 Cor. 11. or elsewhere To which I have in the general shewed a congruity between the Sacrament and the unregenerate in the Church And have answered unto Mr. Collins exceptions against me Now we come more directly to the query and to what is excepted against us I must confesse in pag. 36. Bar removed there is a great mistake but who were faulty in it I cannot well tell the 19. line is out of place and is to be prefixed to my three arguments to prove the Sacrament a converting Ordinance pag. 40. for that which follows page 36. line 19. is to demonstrate a sutablenesse or congruity in the Sacrament to the unregenerate mans receiving where the particulars of the question are examined and cleared And hence Mr. Collins followes the mistake and makes himself merry with those three new arguments as he had thought they were but he findes the first as old as Pauls steeple And the third proves a Monkies right to the Sacrament in his pag. 35 36. I confesse my nature inclines me too much to give him returns sutable unto his vein of levity Answ but I shall rather choose to keep to the question and inform the Reader again touching this question in hand I laid down the nature of the Sacrament to be a visible Gospel representing Christ and him crucified to the outward senses of the body to that end that they might be the in lets of the soul to give the application of the benefits of Christs death to the heart and conscience And I thought the unregenerate in the Church have as much need of the use of all their senses to understand Christ and him crucified and to apply the benefits that come by him as the regenerate and more they being more dull to understand or to be affected with the benefits and blessings that come to sinners by vertue thereof Unto this Mr. Collins saith Bravely concluded from need to right is wide concluding I conclude from the nature of the Sacrament Answ 1 c. That therefore the unregenerate in the Church have need to be allowed the use of all their senses to let in the knowledge of Christ as the regenerate they being more dull c. And hence I conceive a congruity unto such he sayes from need to right is wide concluding The question is not to prove a right but a congruity or rather to free the unregenerate from the charge of incongruity c. unto which Mr. Collins excepts nothing against the nature of it In spiritual things unto the Church I much question whether it be wide concluding from need to right I am sure need and wants are the only objects of Gods free bounty in giving Christ and all he gives with him With him the fatherlesse and desolate finde mercy If any want wisdome let them ask it of God who gives freely What though from need to right doth not alwayes hold in the Courts of men it 's a good plea in the Court of free grace and well taken when sinners come off in the use of Gods own appointments for the obtaining of a blessing of supply unto their necessities In the next place we are to examine what Mr. Collins excepts against the end of the Sacrament as I have exprest
his mercy and blessing to their souls are discouraged and hindred by these pretenders to reform They shut up the Kingdome of Heaven against poor souls that as sinners would be entring in and adhering to their Saviour They forbid whom Christ commands to serve him in this Ordinance and in reforming of their Churches they make void the commands of Christ by their own traditions which wayes tend more to the destruction and confusion of Churches then in the least the reforming of them His fifth is Crossing the desire of the godly in the land and the actings of the State herein The desires of the godly were Answ and still are for the reformation of the whole according to the Word of God and when they see evident demonstrations from the Word to justifie a more general admission to the Lords Supper then upon mistake have been thought of they will be satisfied in their desires accounting those desires irregular that have bin drawn out without Scripture ground Better such desires should be crossed then attained His sixth Degenerating from the Primitive times and all true antiquity That the Virgin Primitive times in the Apostolical Churches admitted all to the holy Supper that came under baptism Answ and were received into the Church is so evident that no sober man will deny as hath been shewed already and for after times if they acted otherwise they are as much to be questioned for swerving from the first precedents as we ● As for that Antiquity that is newer then the Scriptures this Author is no adorer of it as himself writeth The Fathers were divided in truth and united in error The principle of Antiquity yeelds but a popular and fallacious argumeent pag. 6.9 and therefore he might have spared this quotation of Chrysostom in his Homily 83. Let us keep away all without exception that we see to come unworthily But what he meant by unworthily who can tell and what he meant by keeping away whether as a single Minister or by the Churches Jurisdiction is a query But did ever Chrysostome forsake his Church as Pastor and joyn himself as an Officer or member to another Pastor and Church And in stead of administring the holy Supper to his own Congregation or using any acts of discipline to amend them leave them out and separate some few with him to receive the Sacrament in another Church See whether Christ or his Apostles or Chrysostome will justifie your own practice all that you have yet pretended from the Scripture to warrant your way hath been sufficiently examined and confuted His last The want of making some separation as to the Lords Table hath given occasion to some to forsake our Congregations Master Cotton Bloody Tenent 1. ● The want of right and solid principles as touching the constitution and first reforming of our Church hath given the occasion of the Brownists separation from us for they in New England doe not scruple the administring of the Sacrament to a scandalous member tolerated by the Church till censured Juridically and for them that own our Church and Ordinances for true they might be rationally satisfied upon the same principle 2. The want of right principles as to the Sacrament hath wryed more of the godly minded then otherwayes would be as men come to embrace truer principles and conceptions of this holy Ordinance according to the Scriptures they will be more tender of making unnecessary separations and rents in the Church 3. It is a wonder that our common principles in order to the Sacrament doe not hurry all knowing consciencious men into some separations or other sith it 's said the unregenerate are far from being disciples believers and the Sacrament is a cup of poyson and for the confusion and damnation of such souls they are guilty of the murder of Christ c. And that they have nothing to doe with the Covenant and therefore the Sacrament is but a seal to a blanck when administred unto them These erroneous principles doe more distract and trouble the poor Church then men are willing to understand or decline the unnecessary stirs that follow thereupon His second motive contains The great advantages got by acting in some courses of discipline But he should have told us what courses of discipline he means whether any course that men can invent or that which the Scriptures only teach What shall we think of that course themselves are acting in Doth theirs were it generally taken up enable us the better to defend the truth of our Churches as he tels us pag. 162. Must we run into a schism Answ and become like unto our adversaries in unchurching our Parochial Congregations and gather or form up Churches out of them as you to defend the truth of our Churches what is this but to yeeld the cause and betray the Church to defend the truth of a separate Congregation and so to end the quarrel in becoming like unto our reproaching adversaries of Brownists and Anabaptists c. I doubt not but we shall finde friends to defend the truth of our Churches as to their being as they are formed up already and grafted into the true Olive root and branch And I think none are more perfidious to our Churches then those that forsake their former station in the Church and form a new with the specious pretences according to Gospel rule What doth this imply but that our Churches are false and not according to Gospel rule What beside their own word can free them from rigid and absolute separation That which follows We shall have the better satisfaction in our Consciences whilest God is our witnesse that we have taken pains drawn losse upon our estates stirred up the envy of the multitude for his service sake And who hath required this at your hands Answ Where is it written that you should act as you do If you meet with sufferings for your irregular actings what thank have you It 's not the goodnesse of the men or ends but the goodnesse of the cause that makes a Martyr and brings solid comfort to the souls of Gods people all sects are apt to blesse themselves in what they suffer by contrary mindes but this and the rest that follows is but weak and beg'd too I come to his answer of objections pag. 164. 1. Object The stirs and troubles where any such separation is made 2. The separation defended is the same with schism and absolute separation pag. 165. His answer is We must follow peace with men as it may stand with holynesse and no otherwise and indeed from a high rash or absolute separation there are dangerous consequences but from that which is moderate and warrantable no such dangers saith he To this I reply 1. That keeping the peace of the Church of Christ is more urged and prest home amongst Christians then to other men in the world Christ came to make division between the Church and the world but left a legacy of love and peace to