damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
wide way and the narrow way Mat. 7. If there be but two wayes in this life you say there are but two abiding places after this life In the wide way of breaking Gods commaundementes some go wider then some with infinite varietie yet al in the wide way and these after death go to damnation namely their soules and straight to damnation because they haue nothing to stay thē out of it so much as a minute of an houre In the narrow way of keping Gods cōmaundements some go narrower then some with infinite varietie likewise yet all in the narrow way and these after death go to life though not straight in body none of them neither in soule also many of them because they haue somewhat to stay them out of it for a time to wit temporall debt of veniall sinne also of mortal sinne forgiuen but the due penance not fully payed nor fully pardoned And so you sée that the two wayes of this life stande well ynough with Purgatorie Pur. 436.444 Againe you alleage that it is written of the Iudgement 2. Cor. 5. we shall all stand before the Iudgement seate of Christ to receiue ech of vs the own of his body according as he did either good or euill Not D. Allen but as he alleageth S. Augustine Aug. Ench. cap. 100. Dion Ec. Hier. ca. 7. as also S. Dionisius Areopagita answereth that the Churches praying for the dead is nothing repugnant herevnto because the dead in our Lord in his life deserued that these workes after his death might be profitable vnto him And to this answer you haue no reply to mainteine that Scripture against such prayer Onely you oppose a saying of S. Hierom very fondly as in the next chap. I wil shew Once againe you reason of the Iudgement If Purgatory be so necessary to satisfie Gods iustice by temporall paynes of sinners Pur. 85. according to the time c. and Purgatory shal cease at the day of Iudgement as you affirme out of Augustine how shall the same be satisfied in such as dye immediatly before the day of Iudgement so that they haue not had time inough ther to be sufficiently purged The like may be demaunded of all them which in a moment shal be changed from mortalitie to immortalitie at the very comming of Iesus Christ to Iudgement These questions M. Allen will trouble your head to answere and retayne your former principles Two doughtie questions Where did D. Allen set downe that principle that Purgatory is necessary to satisfie according to the time I finde where he saith Pur. 44. If any debt or recompence remayne to be discharged by the offender after his reconcilement it must needes rise by proportion weight continuance number and quantitie of the faultes cōmitted before Wherby it must of necessity be induced that bicause euery man can not haue time to repay all in his life that there is all or some parte answerable in the world to come Here we haue continuannce of the faultes and time of his life but time of Purgatory that you haue to tell vs where you had it The truth is that a shorte time in Purgatorie will so pay the sinner that it had bene better for him to spende much longer time in penance as in this life also a litle while in fire passeth I trow the payne of longer time in fasting c. Neither is it hard for god to punish one in the shortest time as gréeuously as an other in 1000. yeres Nor again repugnant to his mercy to remit suche punishment at the request of his glorious Saints which is S. Augustines answere to your obiection as he nowe doth to the like for the Churches prayers Aug. de Ci. li. 21. ca. 24.27 Lo what a hard thing it was to answere your Demaundes Whether Faith Hope and Gods Will may stande with Purgatory After these two assaylings of Purgatory by going straight to heauen and by the iudgement there remayneth your third last assault Pur. 421. wherein you say to vs We learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the faith and hope of Christians And how shew you that Pur. 382. If it be against the hope of Christians to mourne for the dead much more it is against the faith and hope of Christians to pray for them For by our prayer we suppose them to be in miserie whom the word of God doth testifie to be in happines to be at rest to be with Christ Io. 17. Apoc. 14. Neither those Scriptures nor any other by you alleaged as I haue shewed do testifie that all straight after death be so and therefore to suppose some of them to be in miserie and so to pray for them is not proued to be against the worde of God Neither to mourne for some yea and for all is saide to be against Hope I would haue you knowe that they shal rise againe saith the Apostle to the end that you mourne not for them 1. Thes 4. sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent in such sorte as others that haue not hope of their Resurrection So then there is one maner of mourning without hope and there is another maner of mourning with hope and such is our mourneing with prayer When Christ praied for his own Resurrection Psal 15. Act. 2. did that argue him to be voide of hope or rather to haue hope When also we all pray for the generall Resurrection Thy kingdome come and mourne and grone for the dilation do we against hope doe we not rather most manifestly declare oure hope thereby Moreouer you saye there To that which is required of the expresse worde of God forbidding prayers for the dead we answere that all places of the Scripture that forbid prayers without faith forbid prayers for the dead For faith is not euery mans vayne perswasion but an assurance out of the word of God Which because we can not haue in praying for the dead therefore we are forbidden to pray for them This argument supposeth Cap. eodē part 1. that the word of God is onely Scripture which you can not proue as in the one place here aboue I haue declared Againe it supposeth that prayer for the dead is not assured by Scripture which besides the most expresse place of the Machabées and diuers others now shall another euident place control euen the same place that you alleage against vs. Thus you say Pur. 281. We learne out of Gods word that whatsoeuer we do pray for according to Gods wil we shal obteine 1. Io. 5. Therefore this one Hatchet shall cut a sunder al Prayers for the dead are not according to the wil of God and therefore they are not heard at all I denie the Minor you haue not nor can not proue it Yea I say further It is agaynst that which the Apostle there both intēdeth and expresseth to wit that we should pray for our brethren after they be dead if
Psalme is it not a prayer for thē trow you or was not Purgatorie trauelled into Affrike neither when S. Augustine wrote as aboue because there also they caried their corpses with Psalmes In so much that soone after S. Augustines death Victor bishop of Vtica reporting the lamentable deuastations of the Catholike Churches there by the Arrian king Gensericus Victor de pers Vand. li. 1. fol. 3. b. saith among other things Quis vero sustineat sine Lachrymis c. And who can abide without teares to remember when he commaunded our deads corpses to be caryed vnto burying with scilence without the solemnitie of Psalmes Which lamentation you haue in England renewed to vs with addition also in that our Priests neither with scilence may burie the corpses of our Catholike brethren but your Ministers a Gods name with whom they would not communicate in their life must haue the laying vp of their bodies after their death a disordered folly in you Heretikes and the sinne of Schisme in suche Catholikes as geue consent vnto it Pur. 327. from .323 To these memories oblations and sacrifice for the dead doth belong also the place of Possidonius whiche you saye proueth plainly that it was the sacrifice of thanks giuing that was offered for the commendation of the godly and quiet deposition or putting off of his body Where he writeth of S. Augustine thus Nobis coram positis c. In our presence the sacrifice was offered vnto God Possid in vita Aug. cap. 31. for the cōmending of his bodies deposition and so he was buried Meaning by the bodies deposition not the putting off by death but the laying downe of it in the earth by burying as by leuatio corporis the taking vp againe of the bodies or Relikes of Saintes you might haue perceiued if you had beene skilfull in Antiquitie And by commending the deposition he meaneth the commendation of his soule to God vpon that day as I tolde you before Both which you might haue playnly vnderstoode by that which D Allen in the very same paragraph alleageth out of S. Augustine speaking of his mother Aug. 9. cōf ca. 12.14 Nam neque in eis precibus ego fleui quas tibi fundimus cum offeretur pro ea sacrificiū precij nostri iam iuxta sepulchrū posito cadauere priusquam deponeretur For neither in those prayers did I weepe which according to her request vpon her deathbed memoriam sui ad altare tuum fieri that memory of her might be made at thy altar we made vnto thee O God when the sacrifice of our price was offered for her the corpse nowe standing by the graue before it was laide downe Which place is so plaine that your selfe are faine to confesse that in the celebration of the Sacramēt the error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remēbraunce of some in the prayers namely because S. Augustine ther moreouer desireth God to inspire all his Priestes reading that booke Vt meminerint To remember at thy Altar Monica thy seruant and Patrike once her husband my Parents Repeating the same againe a litle after in these words In ministration of the Communion there was a speciall remembrance of her in the prayers as there was of all dead in the faith a generall memorie So that you vse indifferently these two prayers for the dead generally and a generall memory of the dead because you saw euidently that S. Augustine by remembring of his father mother at the Altar meant praying for them And yet such a cauiller you are Fulke the ansvverer Fulke the replier that D. Allen in saying memoriam sui a memory of her to be a memory for her must be charged with pseudologia as though she would haue her sonne to be a chauntrie Priest to sing for her not béeing able for all your gybing to deny but that he did both himselfe pray for her at the Altar if that be to be a Chauntrie Priest and procure other Priests to do the same Well by this practise about S. Monica the Reader perceiueth how properly you affirmed that it was only thanks giuing which Possidonius reporteth was done for S. Augustine But for al this you say although a memory or prayer was made for her in the celebration of the Sacrament yet was it not offered for hir as a Sacrifice and as a propitiation of hir sinnes No syr doth he not say expresly The sacrifice of our price was offered for her Yea but he expounded before in plaine words A friend of trust for Protestants August de verb. Apo. Ser. 34. that he meaneth thereby nothing els but the foresaid memorie Those plaine words neither you recite out of him nor no man els can finde in him as neither he nor any other reasonable man would vtter such a meaning in such words But these most playne words I find in him in another place Hoc a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia vt pro eis qui in corporis sanguinis Christi communione defuncti sunt cum ad sacrificium salutare loco suo commemorantur oretur This as a Tradition of her Fathers the whole Church obserueth when they which are departed in the cōmunion of Christes body and bloud for the excōmunicate so were not be in their place mentioned at the healthfull sacrifice to pray for them What more Ac pro illis quoque id offerri commemoretur and to expresse that for thē also the sacrifice is offred Of particular Doctors Whether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatory Notwithstanding all this you will néedes haue fooles beléeue that S. Augustine was doubtfull in the matter of Purgatorie notwithstanding also that he so playnly prayeth for his mother Therefore O Lord God Aug. 9. confes 13. setting aside her good dedes for a while for which with ioy I do giue thee thanks Nunc pro peccatis matris meae deprecor te now I beseeche thee for my mothers sinnes for which at this day we also pray for the most Pur. 328. perfect excepting vndoubted Martyrs vntill by Canonization they be knowen to be Saintes Heare me for the medicine of our wounds that hung on the Crosse and sitting at thy right hand intreateth for vs c. So playnely Pur. 327. I say that you confesse this place to proue prayer for the dead vsed by S. Augustine and are fayne to saye It was all but superstition or will worship in him according to the corrupt motion of his owne minde Pur. 270.279.315 Au. ep 64. Enchi c. 110 de cur c. 18. Pu. 54.110 121.161.187 382. In another place also that he alloweth oblations for them that sleepe to profite somewhat Oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium vere aliquid adiuuare credendum est And yet for all this Augustine was very vncertayne you saye very often vnconstant and doubting of it so that Satan whose instrument you make that blessed Doctor was but then laying
wel be more remisse therin though yet she kepeth those Ceremonies still Aug. ep 86 Reade S. Augustine ad Casulanum of those matters where also besides this you shall finde also another generall reason according to the diuine wisdome of that most Ecclesiastical doctor to wit that it sufficeth if the Church haue vnitie of faith as it were intus in membris inwardly in her limmes and that she wel may withall haue diuersitie of obseruations as it were varietatem in veste varietie in her queenely garment according to the Psalme Psal 44. Which he speaketh for diuersitie of Ceremonies in sundry places at one time but it serueth for the like diuersitie in one place at sundry times as it is euident As for your boldnes with the Fathers for their Liturgies pronouncing that vndoubtedly they chaunged the auncient truth into their owne lately receiued errors Proc. apud Claud. de Sainctes praef in Liturg. or else why were they not content with the olde forme Proclus Bishop of Constantinople about a thousand yeres agoe answereth your Why telleth you that S. Basill and S. Chrysostome did no more but abridge the Liturgie of S. Iames the Apostle which thrée Liturgies the Councell in Trullo also doth acknowledge and that vpon iuste cause Can. 32. But that with errors they corrupted eyther it or any other forme which was vsed before them if any man be so farre gone so to thinke vpon your light worde for all the most renowmed credite of those Fathers let the studious of truth notwithstanding take the paynes to conferre those Liturgies and they shall easily be able of their owne inspection to controll you Supra pag. 21. as I also before in the third Chapter by playne demonstration disproued you for the same and namely in the very same article that forced you to this absurde and shameles shift v. Of Sacrifice and for the dead Now are we come to your next accusation of the auncient Church concerning Sacrifice concerning the dead The name of Sacrifice Pur. 419. which they coÌ„monly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles so you say but you proue it not You might as well say that they or the Apostles had it of the Gentiles to name that Sacrifice which Christ offered vpon the Crosse No syr they named it so because it was so and therfore Christ also said not This is I that was borne of the virgine though that were true but This is my body vpon the one Matt. 26. and This is my bloud vpon the other The Apostle also for the same cause saying of him that commeth therevnto vnworthily not that he is guyltie of Christ though that be true 1. Cor. 11. but that he is guyltie of his body and of his bloud because it is such a celebration of his death Wherevpon if you knew what is the sacrificing of a liue thing you should sée that how properly he was sacrificed on the Crosse in an open maner euen as properly he is sacrificed here in a mysticall maner The same Apostle therefore agayne saying that we haue an a Heb. 13. Altar to eate of which place your blindnesse b Pur. 45â— alleageth against this Sacrifice and also calling it c 1. Cor. 10 The table of our Lorde in that forme of speache as he calleth c 1. Cor. 10 The table of the diuels the sacrifice of the Gentiles and the Leuiticall sacrifices likewise the Leuiticall c 1. Cor. 10 Altar Yet you can not find d Pur. 200 289. one word nor one syllable in the Scripture of any Sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last Supper Whereof we shall say more Cap. 10. Dem. 24. Purgatorie But to go forwarde with you to your accusation first of Purgatorie and afterward of Purgatorie fire To proue that Purgatory came of the Philosophers as al most notable heresies did Pur. 416. Tertul. de anima cap 31.32 you alleage out of Tertullian De anima that all Philosophers which graunted the soules immortalitie assigned three places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying This argument proueth as well that heauen and hell and the Immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the Philosophers Howbeit also to report the truth there is no word of any third place of purifying but onely that such Philosophers made two sortes of Receptacles to wit Supernas mansiones for Philosophers soules onely and Inferos for all other soules and that about the first they did varie for Plato placed it in aethere Aerius in aëre the Stoikes circa lunam This is all Againe you proue out of Irenéeus that Purgatorie came of Carpocrates the Heretike Iren. li. 1. cap. 24. because he inuented a kinde of Purgatorie and proued it out of that place of S. Mathew Thou shalt not come forth vntil thou hast payd the vttermost farthing Mat. 5. euen as the Papistes do By this argument againe you will winne much honestie Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. Haer. 27. Tertul. de anima c. 17 Ireneus and after him Epiphanius as also Tertullian in your owne booke De anima do write that the Carpocratians helde that a man must wallow in aâ—l the filthe of sinne that is in this world before he can come to life euerlasting and therefore if he haue missed any sinne his soule is reuersed into a body and so againe and againe vntill he haue fulfilled all And for this purpose Iesus they say vsed this Parable of agreeing with the aduersarie in the way Matt. 5. c. Corpus enim dicunt esse carcerem c. For that prison they say is the body and that which he saith Thou shalt not go out thence vntill thou hast payed the last farthing they interprete as if the soule should be turned ouer by certayne Angels from body to body semper quoadvsque in omni omnino operatione quae in mundo est fiat Continually euen vntill it haue bene in all and euery acte of this world vt nihil amplius relinquatur saith Epiphanius ad nefarium quicquam faciendum so that nothing remayne that is abhominable but it is fulfilled Purgatorie fire Pur. 419.418 You goe forward and say that they tooke Purgatorie fire of the Origenistes and the name of Purgatorie of certayne Mediators who about S. Augustines time would accorde Origens error with the erroneous practise of the church For it was Origen that brought in the fire also and that he would buylde as the Papists do See here ca. xij of Christes damnation temporall according to Caluine and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. This you say but you proue it not Origens error was that hell fire is not an euerlasting fire but onely a temporall fire which should in time purge not onely them that had ended their liues in most horrible sinnes but also the diuels
them selues Augu. ad quod haer 43. Origenist as S. Augustine writeth and so restore them to the kingdome of God Et rursus post longissima tempora omnes c. And that all againe should at length returne to the same miseries And that the felicities and myseries of men and Angels haue alwayes had and always shall haue their turnes and courses after this maner Thus he erred you sée about hell and heauen and about Purgation of the damned but of the Purgation of suche as die in Gods fauour here is no word Vnlesse you reason thus There is no such Purgatorie as Origen and Carpocrates would haue ergo no Purgatorie at all Which followeth euen as necessarily as this doth There is no such hell nor such heauen as Origen did put ergo no hell at all nor heauen at all Releeuing of the dead by prayer Now for the Reléeuing of them which else must as we say 1. Cor. 3. Supra ca. 3 pa. 2. and as S. Paule saith endure a fierie and therefore a most painfull Purgation you graunted in the third Chapter that the auncient Fathers of the true Church as Epiphanius Augustine counted Aerius an heretike for teaching Aug. hae 5. Epi. hae 75 Such absurd shiftes he is driuen vnto That Prayer for the dead was vnprofitable Orare vel offerre pro mortuis oblationem non oportere he taught saith S. Augustine That we must not pray nor offer oblation for the dead But you will nowe proue and that also Ar. 45. by the selfe same Fathers and out of the selfe same bookes of theirs that their doctrine rather was heresie For If Aerius say you was an heretike for denying prayer for the dead to be profitable why were the Heracleonites accused of heresie because they buried their dead with inuocations Epipha li. 1. Tom. 3. haere 36. Epiphanius after Secundiani and Ptolomaitae writeth in order of Marcosiani Colarbasiani See Epip◠ab haer 32. ad haer 36. and Heracleonitae saying that they were all Gnostici as their predecessors the Valentinians and Carpocratians that is to saye men of knowledge Which Gnostici all of them did count perfectam cognitionem perfect knowledge or perfection to be this if a man forsooth had wallowed himselfe like a swine in all and euery filth that is otherwise his soule after death shoulde by the Iudge and his Minister who were according to their fables two of the Angels that created the world be imprisoned agayne in a bodie This saide all the Gnostici and I touched it also aboue But the later of them after the vsuall maner of heretikes as Epiphanius noteth not content with their Fathers inuentions would adde somewhat also of their owne inuention They inuented therefore a certaine Redemption as they called it which consisted in a fond imitation and corruption of the Sacramentes of Christ but in that againe after the manner of heretikes disagréeing much amongst them selues For looke how many are the professors of this doctrine Epiph. haer 34. Iren. li. 1. cap. 18. so many are their Redemptions sayeth Ireneus and out of him Epiphanius speaking of the Marcosians Some did it by way of a mariage Some as it were at Baptisme one sort by water an other sorte by a mixture of oile and water both which sortes did after anoint the partie with balme and all with certaine fond words according to the fables of their heresies Alij verò haec anima auersantes c. But some other woulde none of all these saying that the mysterie of the vnspeakeable and inuisible power ought not to bee celebrated in visible and corruptible creatures Esse autem perfectam redemptionem ipsam cognitionem inenarabilis magnitudinis But that the very knowledge of the vnspeakeable maiestie was perfect Redemption Epiph. haer 36. After the foresaide Marcus came Heracleon taking his occasiō of Marcus yet not redeeming any more as he did but otherwise redimens videlicet ad finem vitae eos c. at the houre of their death he redeemed his followers powring on the heade of the partie eyther oyle mingled with water or baulme water such againe was the vnitie of these Heracleonites together with Marcus his madde inuocations and some others All this to this end that by vertue of such anointing and such Inuocations his body being lefte here his Anima Soule being cast of apud Opificē where the Angel or God Creator is his Interior homo Inwarde man might inuisibly passe the said Creator them that are beneath about him so scape vp to his proper place aboue all specially if withal he could remember to say to the Creator those other powers as Heracleon had instructed him The wordes are to be séen in Epiphanius who at length concludeth al this geare saith Et de Redemptione quidē haec sunt quae ad nos deuenerunt And concerning the redemption this is all that hath come to my knowledge Now this forsooth maketh much against our Solemnization of Mariage much also against our Baptisme or baptizing with water And euen as muche against our oyle in Baptisme or Chrisme made of oyle and baulme after Baptisme as much also against our Anealing at the houre of death and our prayers for men after their death howbeit of praying for the dead in all this was neuer a worde neyther in it selfe nor in any lykenesse of it vnlesse you will therevnto liken those wordes that the Heracleonites were taught to say after their death I know not to whom that they myght goe inuisible And yet you doe so triumph in the Heracleonites that you are vp with them against vs in moe places also saying The Heracleonites as Augustine witnesseth came yet a step more towardes the Papistes Pur. 417. for they would Redeeme their dead after a new manner namely by oyle balme water and inuocations saide ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue And againe Of the Heracleonites you learned to anoint men at the point of death with oyle and balme Ar. 22. and to cast water vpon dead men with Inuocations Epiphani lib. 1. Tom. 3. Haeres 36. Euen as of the foresaide heretikes wée learned to Baptize men and to marrie men Who séeth not rather that those heretikes tooke their rites of the Catholike rites with such mutation as they thought good so as nowe the Caluinistes haue made them out of our Masse a Communion of bread onely and wine But if the Heracleonites fayle you Pur. 417. Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes All those poyntes I did put in your wordes in the thirde Chapter But how doe you nowe proue the same Because Tertullian was a Montanist Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 4 and he hath all these poyntes in his Bookes that he made being a Montanist speciallye in hys Booke De anima where also he telleth a Myracle that confyrmeth prayers to profite the deade this is all your proofe But I
antiquarie saith against antiquitie of whom also for so saying Pamelius a farre better antiquarie then he saith thus Quod quà m sinistrè detorqueat Rhenanus ad dies natalitios Ethnicorum nemo ignorare debet c. Rhenanus turneth this place of Tertullian from the right meaning very vntowardly to the byrthdayes of the Gentiles Howbeit in my iudgement Rhenanus there might be better construed not to say that the oblations of Christians were euer for their owne birthdayes but that vpon the byrthdayes of the Martyrs which the Church did celebrate with the solemne oblations of the Altar many of the people kept drunken feasting as the Gentiles did euery one vpon his proper byrthday Which drunken vtas the Church was fayne to tolerate for a time but afterwarde the Canons of the Nicene Councell and others following did forbid it and chaunge it into almes If you could shewe those Canons we might be more certayne of his meaning Playne it is that he speaketh very confusely of birthdayes And playne agayne it is that suche rioting was vsed of some in Paulinus whom he there citeth and S. Augustines times long after the Nicene Councell See Rhenâ— himselfe 〈◊〉 Tert. ad Mâ—tyres num â— And agayne most sure it is that the Church alwayes from the beginning hath vsed and no Councell euer did forbid the kéeping of the Martyrs birth-dayes with oblations of the Altar Finally Rhenanus in those annotations is full of scapes ouersightes and noted accordingly by the learned of this time very much though no yll meaning Beeres to cary home the Corpses One error more you charge vs withall about the dead touching their bodies as the former were touching their soules Ar. 22. George the Arian Bishop of Alexandria inuented Beres to cary dead corpses charging all men to vse them for his owne aduauntage as do you Papistes your Bearing clothes and other toyes for funerall pompes Epiph. li. 3. tom 1. haer 76. Epiphanius doth not say that George inuented Beres but that he deuised to haue them in a certayne number His wordes are these to shewe the miserable couetousnes of that man No trade almost so base no thing so meane whereof he sought not gayne For so muche as Beres for the dead he deuised to make the number of theÌ„ certayn without those that he ordeined no corps of the dead specially of strangers was buried non propter hospitalitatem not for any charitie towards strangers but as I haue said for lucres sake For if any buried a corps otherwise he came in daunger Now if this or the like miserablenes be in any Bishop of ours or yours eyther to racke his people or to vsurpe the liuing of his Cleargie what is that agaynst Béeres or Bearing clothes or comely pompe of funerals or against the Church that vseth them specially your selfe also commending in your Geneua Church Pur. 22â— suche Ceremonies as are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the Corps vnlesse you thinke it much for the Church to reape their Carnalia to whom she soweth Spiritualia or would prouide for your selfe a Béere Bearing clothes against you shal be buried 1. Cor. 9 rather then to pay the common duties to your parish Church Thus haue I folowed you through all the errors common to vs with the auncient true Church taken as you saye of the Gentiles or of Heretikes but as I haue playnly shewed not any one of them so nor so What more you haue of them belongeth to the eyght and ninth Chapters where I haue promised to answere all your testimonies out of Scripture and others about any matter to day in controuersie and thither I referre the Reader for the last error also about the Popes Superioritie hauing nothing here to be answered because though you say that the auncient Church had that error also yet you do not say that it tooke it of the Gentiles or of any Heretikes The second part Concerning the errors that he layed Cap. 4. to the Fathers and not to vs. j. Touching the heresies which were in their times Now followeth the second sort of the Churches errors that is those errors which you lay to the auncient true Church and not to vs also To answere you therevnto likewise and that very briefly What a thing is this that you charge the Church in the Apostles time with the heresies that were in the Apostles times And the same Church agayne in the thrée Arian Emperors time with the heresie of Arius As if a man would charge the same Church now that is our Romane Church with your heresies For you say Ar. 15 35. Dem. 45.46 not only Pope Liberius of whom I must answere in the tenth Chapter but the true Church was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And you bring in the heresies of the Apostles time to declare that euen then the Church decayed counting it also all one to erre and to decay And yet of your owne imagined Church that in the time of Pope Bonifacius the third fled into the wildernes you can say thus Where she hath not decayed Ar. 16.15 Infra ca. 11 cont 31. but bene alwayes preserued D. Allen notwithstanding when he saith that the Church alwayes stoode still and stedfast whilest all other Congregations as Arrians c. haue decayed must be controlled and tolde of the persecutions vntill the time of Constantine and of great detriment vnder Iulianus the Apostata and of a great Eclipse vnder the barbarous Gothes c. Besides the foresaid infection vnder the thrée Arrian Emperors If amid those persecutions and heresies it had not bene alwaies preserued then you might haue said that it had decayed You shew wel that hell gates haue fought sore against it but you shewe not that they haue at any time preuailed Yea the truth is in my Booke of Demaundes in the second Demaund you haue it that the Churche alwayes preuailed according to Christes promise and predictions and that so cléerely and so gloriously that both the persecuting Romane Emperours gaue ouer at length their obstinacie and vaine kicking against the pricke submitting themselues to the very same Church which afore they persecuted yea moreouer continuing Christians euen to this day and also all heresies Arrians and others vanished quite away neither the persecutions being ought els in effect but an occasion of innumerable Martyrs the commodities of whom we heard a little Supra 55. Greg. â—ral li. 9 7. before out of S. Augustine nor againe the heresies ought els but an occasion of so many most worthy Doctors both Gréeke Latine and their most excellent writinges at which to this day all the later heretikes doe quake and tremble by which to this day the Catholike Church alwayes conquereth and triumpheth ij Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus Which Doctors if any of them haue erred in some thing or other yet this is notable that not so much as in their errors or
afore doubted of by some Referring them to the .10 Chapter a Cap. 10. de 45.46 such errors as he layeth to the later Popes personally because they concerne not the whole Churche as neither the pretensed Arrianisme of Liberius in old time b Cap. 10. dem 38. such errors also as he layeth to vs now in respect of our shauen beardes rounded heades with other like taken as he saith of certaine old heretikes because he him selfe also counteth these but small matters Therefore I say reseruing these to their proper place we haue here no more but foure or fiue to speake of j. Touching the bodies of Angels One he reporteth thus Ar. 90. The second Councell of Nice determined that Angels and soules of men had bodies were visible circumscriptible and therfore might be paynted And this it affirmeth to be the iudgement of the Catholike Church Con. Nice 2. Actio 5. I answere you mispeport the matter for it is not the Councels determination no nor saying also but the saying onely of Ioannes Bishop of Thessalonica rehearsed in the Councell amongst many other authors with this admonition giuen after it to the Councell by Tharasius Bishop of Constantinople that they consider hereby the madnes of them that ouerthrew the Images of our Lord and of his vndefiled mother séeing this holy father doth shew that Angels also may be paynted And touching Ioannes him selfe his error is not so great as your ignorance maketh it saying If this be not to induce an error to make men beleeue that Angels and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscriptible there was neuer any error since the world began Soft man you go to farre other maner of errors you may remember haue bene since the world began which might not be defended as he defendeth his saying to the Gentill with whom he there talketh of Angels ipsa Catholica Ecclesia sic sentit The Catholike Church so thinketh quibus animas nostras adiungo To whoÌ„ I ioyne also our soules that they are pardie intellectuall Heb. 1 of psa but not altogether vnbodily and inuisible as you Gentiles do say but of a thin and ayrie or fierie body as it is written His Angels he maketh spirites and his ministers burning fyre And by the Catholike Church what he meaneth he straight declareth saying So thought And so Pâ— must put 〈◊〉 rather to errors of primitiuâ— Church many of the holy fathers we know as Basilius Athanasius Methodius and they that holde with them qui stant ab illis signifying that some other Catholikes helde otherwise Aug. â— cap. 5 And not only S. Augustine numbreth it amongst the things That without sinne a man may be ignorant of and therfore néede not cum discrimine with perill to be affirmed or denied or defined but also to this day no such determination or declaration of the question is made as the a Thâ— in q. d moni best also do graunt to condemne the assertion as hereticall though b Coâ— sub Iâ— cap. 1 â— sufficient to count it nowe temerarious and erroneous ij Touching the Popes superioritie ouer the Councell But the next error of our Church is I trow vnanswerable being such a one also as not only sheweth vs to erre but moreouer depriueth vs of al certentie of truth Mary that in déede must be séene vnto as you tell vs saying that we haue nede to lay our heades together about it Ar. 63.85 And this it is Your Canonistes and Diuines he saith be not agréed about the chiefest articles of your Religion that is 1 Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councel aboue the Pope 2 Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell or whether the Councell may erre and not the Pope And what then These two The Popes determination and the Councels determination being the rules of truth in your religion and not agreed vpon how can any truth be certayne in your Church Agayne by and by after You Papistes some holding of the Pope and some of the Councell as rules of truth can haue no ground nor certentie of truth Therefore if you woulde haue me or any man to be of your beliefe first determine how I shall know when I am in a right beliefe And that be all which troubleth you me thinketh I should be able to satisfie you or any other reasonable man as you are if I say that you may know and that by the consent of both these parties that you are in a right beliefe when you holde those determinations that without controuersy are ioyntly the determinations both of the Pope and of the Councell together as the determinations of the Councell of Trent and of all other Councels without controuersie confirmed by the Pope Other Councels that are certayne not to be confirmed by him or also not certayne to be confirmed by him no man wil binde you to beléeue them or at the least not before it be certayne and so are you easily answered though it be supposed the matter to be so vncertayne amongst vs as you make it But now how much more if it be not so For how do you proue this disagréement The Councell of Ferraria and Florence determined That the Pope was aboue the Councell and that the Councell might erre And Eugenius quartus that gathered the Councell of Ferraria and Florence was of the same iudgement All this I graunt Now what haue you for the other side The Councels of Constance and Basill determined That the Councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope may erre Let this also be graunted And Martinus quintus the Pope chosen by the Councell of Constance was of the same iudgement Nay syr whoe there that you proue not nor neuer shall proue but onely that a Sess vâ—… Con. CoÌ„ … Martinus quintus at the petition of the Polonian Ambassador confirmed those determinations alone of the Councell of Constance which were agaynst the errors of Wiclefe Hus and Hierome of Prage And that b Sess 4 Con. Ba … Nicolaus quintus to auoyde much confusion ratified the collations of Benefices and such like thinges done in the Councell of Basill And that c Sess 16 Con. Ba … Eugenius quartus did no more but declare that from the beginning to a certaine time the same of Basill was Legitimum Concilium a lawfull Councell and lawfully continuated But otherwise as concerning the determinations and decrées of it neither Eugenius nor he that d Ar. 91 you name to wit Nicolaus confirmed it yea Leo decimus afterwarde in his e Sess 〈…〉 Lateran Councell most expresly reiected it comparing it to the seconde Ephesine Synode commonly called Lestrice whiche was repealed afterwardes by commaundement of Pope Leo the first in the Councell of Chalcedon Go now and say still in your vayne spirite of childish insultation Gentle master N. reconcile me these togeather This triu … vvanteth â—â—thing but 〈◊〉 victorie because
be ordeined at Rome as the Priest of God And therefore Infestus Sacerdotibus Dei fanda atque infanda comminabatur The Tyrant being mad at the Priests of God for that fact threatned as the Diuell Which he speaketh in excéeding prayse of Cornelius qui sedit intrepidus Romae c. Because he sate boldly at Rome in the priestly Chaire euen at that time Whereby you sée in what dread the tyrantes stoode of the Church though they so hated and so persecuted it Who euer more hated the same Priest and the Church with him then you your selues who at euery worde do blaspheme and call him Antichrist and yet I thinke you will not say that they are haue bene these thousand yeres a base and a contemptible companie Another place you alleage blindly against your selfe saying And S. Paul biddeth vs looke on our calling 1. Cor. 1. not many wise men according to the flesh not many mighty men not many noble men but God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the weake of this world to confound the strōg So was the beginning of the Church What ergo always Doth not your text say that the wise also thē selues the strong at length were confounded that is to say conuerted Do you not sée how it foloweth against you If the Church were then a base and contemptible company as you say because it had not many wise mightie noble ergo afterward it was otherwise when it had gotten in also the Princes Kings Emperours of the world and as Esay speaketh Esai 60. The multitude of the Sea the fortitude of the Gentiles Was it then also a contemptible company yea or shall it according to the Scriptures euer after be no verily not so much as in the time or reuelation of Antichrist wherof I shall say more anone In so much that in another place your selfe also alleaging to the cleane contrarie Ar. 73. do say And Esay declareth when the people should be almost all destroyed yet a remnant should be saued which though it semed to be small yet it should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esay 10. But this I must reserue to the Chapter of your grosse contradictions Last of all as concerning the Inuisiblenes of the Church you alleage so as Pur. 450. I thinke no sober man would One while that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men So we beleue you say because it is in heauen Gal. 4. Why do you say The vniuersall Church Is not also euery good member of it in heauen as the Apostle saith Our conuersation is in heauen Philip 3. And yet you beléeue not I trow that the Apostle was not séene at all of men Another while you say Ar. 80. It sufficeth that the Church be knowē to Christ the head As he saith My shepe heare my voyce I know them Iohn 10. Adding for all that text immediatly And to them that be of the members of the same body If your text import that it sufficeth to be knowen to the head why do you iumble in the members afterward Chrestes knowing of his shéepe is his louing of them as contrariwise to the goates he will say Mat. 25. I know you not Wherevpon if it folow not necessarily forsooth that the Church may be inuisible I report me to you Another while you alleage that although not alwais yet at one certaine time it should become inuisible to wit at the cōming of Antichrist And what Scriptures haue you for that thus you say It was prophecied that the Church should flye into the wildernes Ar. 27. that is be driuen out of the sight knowledge of the wicked So you expound that text of your owne head Againe Ar. 77. If the Church should stand always in the sight of the world then the defection which S. Paule speaketh of could not haue come neither should the Church flye into the wildernes as was declared to S. Iohn Substantial arguments That defection is your heresie as I shal straightway declare yet notwithstāding the Pope the church standeth at this time in the sight of the world The Church in the time of Antichrist both visible and vniuersall as it hath alwayes done Yea in the time that is to come when your great lord Antichrist shal appeare in person euen then also the Church shal stand stil in the sight of the world as it did in al the former persecutiōs in the first 300. yeres For there shal be preaching al the time of the persecution euen 1260. days Apoc. 11. as the persecution shal last 42. moneths which both cōmeth to three yeres a halfe the preaching shal be as general as the persecutiō to thē that sit vpon the earth Apo. 14. and vpon euery nation tribe language people exhorting thē mightily that they feare not the Beast nor adore him but that they feare the Lord giue honor to him because the honor of his iudgemēt is come As when it is said againe that the persecutors beeing in number as the sand of the sea Apoc. 2◠shall flow ouer the wide world super latitudinem terrae and so compasse the campe of the faithfull and the beloued Citie is it not therby playnly signified that the Church shal at the same time together with her enemies be vniuersall and super latitudinem terrae And therefore her flying then into the wildernes cannot be vnderstood as you expound it that she shal be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked but the meaning of it is this that she shall then abandon more then euer before all worldly pleasures being content to be turned out of all she hath and neuerthelesse sustayned by Gods prouision and fedde both in body and soule during all the time of that straite necessitie Apoc. 12. to wit 1260. dayes ij Namely of their Church and of ours by conference of places that are about Antichrist And so hauing answered all that you alleage about the Church indefinitely I am now come to that you alleage of your Church and of our Church by name Which is nothing in effect but only your owne fonde and voluntary applying of the two textes laste rehearsed whither the spirite of your error moued you That neither Antichrist nor the Apostasie agreeth to Bonifacius the third Of the Churches fleing into the vvildernes For so you said in the second Chapter that the Religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled An. Dom. 607. when Boniface the third for a great summe of money first obteined of Phocas the Emperour his Antichristian exaltation that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Churche And now we shall heare what Scripture warranteth you so to say Ar 16. When Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the worlde with most detestable heresie then was
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
who expoundeth it of Martyrs which is there saide Blessed are the dead that dye in our Lord now after that the spirite saieth that they shall rest from their labours You reply saying that D. Allen vnderstanding it onely of Martyrs Aug. ca. 9. li. 20. de Ci. calleth Augustine to witnesse thereof but that it is spoken of all the faithfull and therefore ouerthroweth Purgatorie witnesse hereof I will not take of flesh and bloud say you sée what he maketh of S. Augustine but of the holy Ghost Rom. 14. wee all dye vnto the Lorde Your skill in the Scripture is great that make it all one to dye in the Lorde and to dye to the Lorde All that dye to the Lorde haue as the Apostle there sayth to make their accompt◠to him which may and will to some fall out to their damnation but blessed are al they that dye in the Lord. Wherefore these two are not all one True it is that all whiche dye well and in the Churches peace dye in our Lord as they are called also dormientes in Christo 1. Cor. 15. and mortui in Christo 1. Thes 14. they that slepe in Christ the dead in Christ wheresoeuer their Soules be after that sléeping and dying in heauen or in purgatorie But yet the place Apoc. 14. is verie well sayd of D. Allen to be spoken not of all that so dye but onely of martirs neither of al martirs but of them onely that shall suffer in the time and rage of Antichrist for so the circumstance of the letter playnlye geueth You therfore that wil haue one place always conferred with another consider the circumstance sée what goeth afore what commeth after and you shall finde that he speaketh of the last time exhorting the faithfull then not for any feare to adore the beast but to dye constantly in our Lorde for now the Resurrection is euen at hand and therefore their labours all at an end Feare the Lord saieth one Angel preaching to all the world at that time and geue honour to him because the very houre of his Iudgement is come and adore him adore not Antichrist And another Angell foloweth saying Cecidit cecidit downe downe is fallen Babilon And another Angell If any adore the beast he shal be tormented in fire and brimstone for euer and euer Then a voyce from heauen Blessed are the dead that will not adore the beast but dye in the Lord. Now after this the Spirite sayth that they shall rest from their labours For their workes that is their rewarde do folow them now at hand And immediatly there after commeth forth the Iudge vpon a white cloude and the Siethes and downe goeth al the world Lo this is the circumstance Wherby you sée the place saith not so much as those Martyrs to be at rest so soone as they dye but onely within a very short time after This is the place that quite ouerthroweth Purgatory And so I haue examined all that you alleage for going straight to heauen Another way you procéede against Purgatory and prayer for the dead by the Iudgement which is after this life Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatory The tree whether it fall to the South or the North Pur. 436.439.441 it lieth euer where it lighteth Eccl. 11. Your cōmentary vpon this place is that the fall of the tree to the south or to the north is the iudgement of God concerning euery man either of rewarde or of punishment which can not be altered after a mans death and therefore by this place prayers be not profitable Why who saith that prayers shall so alter their iudgement Some be iudged to heauen but differred as they in Limbo at the very same time when this was written and others not so good both then and nowe in Purgatory To bring these to heauen wherevnto they be so iudged prayers do serue And this differring is signified by the Wiseman euen in the same place quia post tempora multa inuenies illum He exhorteth them to doe almesdéedes and all other good workes that they can because a great while after thou shalt finde it The trée that fell in the South it may be a good while after before he be all trimmed For not the soule onely but also the body falleth to be rewarded or punished And who séeth not how long after the fall it is before the body haue accordingly Only before his fall let euery one looke to his workes for after the fall Luc. 16. he shal find Chaos magnum a huge distance betwene the north and the south and therefore no possibilitie of remouing from the one to the other This is the sense of that place as D. Allen told you before and your reply against it is tootoo friuolous For you say that then they should alwayes lye in Purgatorie because the certeintie of their saluation is as great before they were borne as after they be dead Certaintie of their saluation that by him the Wiseman speaketh of riseth after their dying in grace of the vnalterable iudgement that by your self the Wiseman speaketh of and it is the impossibility of remouing to the north or to damnation What maketh this against remouing out of Purgatory into heauē which is not remouing out of the south into the north but onely further into the south euen into the finall place that straight after his fall both his soule and body were iudged vnto You argue againe of the Iudgement saying Pur. 281. Immediatly after death foloweth Iudgement but prayers either neede not or boote not when the party is eyther acquited or condemned by the sentence of the Iudge which as S. Augustine saith can not be indifferent betwene reward and punishment De lib. arb li. 3. cap. 23. S. Augustine saith there the contrarie rather as you shall sée if you reade the place And to your argument I say In that iudgement some be condemned to hell for whom prayers boote not Others be acquited from hel and of these some straight rewarded in their soules and so prayers néede not but not yet rewarded in their bodies and for that therfore they pray Apoc. 6. vntill they be heard Apoc. 11. Others not straight rewarded neither in their soules And of these againe some without poena sensus punishment of sense only differred as they in Limbo who prayed accordingly no lesse then the foresaid for the redemption of their bodies Others first to be punished temporally according to their debtes Mat. 5. to wit for being angry or saying Raca and them to be not onely let out of their prison because it is not Gehenna ignis for they said not Fatue but also rewarded for their merites And for these againe while they be in prison prayers as they néede so also they boote because the Iudge is mercifull And so you sée no lesse then thrée sortes which your diuision lacketh Pur. 436.444 And therby at once is answered your other obiectiō of the
vnto litle but religion is profitable vnto all things hauing promise of this present life and of the life to come Now what Scripture conferre you to shew that by bodily exercise he meaneth fasting and abstinence from wine or flesh The thing is playne if we marke and conferre no more but the words of this place it selfe that bodily exercise is that which is done for the body to preserue it in health in this present life to the which most men yea priestes and bishops sometimes are too much giuen mispēding much time in walking riding hunting hawking and such like for the preseruation of their bodies and litle or no time at all in spirituall exercise that is to say for the preseruation and increase of their soules in godlines religion wheras the same notwithstanding is as we know by Gods promise in diuers places of holy Scripture profitable both to that litle which they séeke for by such bodily exercise that is to this present life in so muche that many holy Ermites Monks liuing continually in such exercise haue passed the age of a hundred yeres and also which is incōparable to the life to come And therefore S. Paule absteined and fasted him selfe to auoyde eternall damnation as your selfe confessed a litle afore Ne reprobus efficiar least I become a reprobate 1. Cor. 9. saith he and not onely that but also to get coronam incorruptam a crowne incorruptible And the place is much to be noted for conference with this place which we haue in hande because he there calleth it his running and fighting that he did so sharply vse his owne body saying that he did therein imitate the schollers of bodily exercise to wit the runners in gole and fighters at barriers who to make them selues more nimble actiue absteine from all things and yet no more but to winne a corruptible crowne being as litle a thing as that litle that he speketh of to Timothie or rather much lesse though of some estéemed much more such present glory I say compared with this present life and health thereof Thus you sée by conference most manifestly what is bodily exercise and that you cleane contrary not knowing white frō blacke take it for fasting abstinence for that exercise I say which the Apostle there opposeth to it and counteth spirituall or exercise vnto Godward Which spiritual exercise as S. Paule so his disciple also S. Timothie vsed in like champion maner Amongest other poyntes of it to kéepe him selfe chast he absteined wholly from wine drunk nothing but water though being maruelous weake of body Whervpon the Apostle like a tender father writeth vnto him 1. Tim. 5. Kepe thy selfe chast by other exercise but do not yet drinke water but vse a litle wine for thy stomake thy often sicknings Which place againe you depraue say that the Apostle writeth this vnto him assuring him that such bodily exercise profiteth but a litle Pur. 76. No syr I haue shewed you what the Apostle calleth bodily exercise and that he counteth this to be exercise vnto godlines and that it profiteth so much as importeth besides this life which is but litle the auoyding of damnation the winning of a crowne in heauen Howbeit for al that they which are weak of body must runne wrestle as they may Timothie must consider that he is excéeding féeble and therfore not alwayes to drinke water onely and yet withal that he is young and therfore not to be very bold of wine but vse a litle only The measure of al is as S. Paule hath taught vs 1. Cor. 9. to tame the pride of the body to subdue it to bring it vnder that it be not our maister that it be our seruaunt neither rebelling against our commaundement nor fainting in our necessary worke Which measure is set prescribed so as it might in generall by his Spirite and by his Spouse who prophecied of such prescript fasting like to the fastes prescribed by S. Iohn to his disciples Mat. 9. as also of the Pharisées and Filij sponsi the children of the Bridegrome do fast them howsoeuer the children of Aerius of Iouinianus do breake them contemne them blaspheme them So much of Good-works now to the Sacramentes About the Sacramentes in generall Of the Sacramentes in generall first you say Pur. 450. We beleue that there are but two Sacramentes of the New Testament Baptisme and the Lords Supper instituted by Christ 1. Cor. 10. You meane belike the beginning of that chapter wher it is said that the Israelites were in Moyses baptized in the Cloude and in the Sea and did eate and drinke of Manna of the Rocke Are those the sacraments of the new Testament instituted by Christ Again suppose they are what a reason is this In that place we reade of two Supra pag. ergo there are but two It is no good Logike you sayd your self in this chapter aboue to conclude negatiuely of one place of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true For we reade as playnly yea more playnly of the other fiue sacramentes in other places as of Confirmation Ioa. 7. of Penance Io. 20. of Extreme vnction Iac. 5. of Orders Mat. 26. of Matrimony Mat. 19 and of most of them in many other places also That they be Sacraments I cōfesse we reade not there no more do we 1. Cor. 10. or any where els reade that the other two be Sacramentes but that we gather of that which we reade and as wel in the fiue as in the two This is inough yet for further satisfaction the studious may cōsider that S. Paule 1. Cor. 10. had iust cause to mention those two or three figures onely For his purpose there is 1. Cor. 9.10 to warne vs that it is not inough that we be entred within the barres but that we must afterward runne and fight coragiously to winne the prise Therfore he nameth these Mosaical mysteries that were figures of the Sacramentes which we began withall to witte Baptisme and the complement of Baptisme which is Confirmation the Eucharist which thrée were then commonly and yet be at once ministred adultis at their first entring into the Church as it is manifest in antiquitie Infra ca. .12 and may be gathered Heb. 6. Now then what reason is it to trie the number of the Sacramentes by that place as though because those be at the first entrance therefore there be no more in the whole course nor in the end nor to gouerne the knights nor to encrease them nor to saulue them Pur. 450. Moreouer you say of the Sacraments in generall We beleeue that they giue not grace ex opere operato of the work wrought but after the faith of the receiuer and according to the election of God 1 Cor. 10. Againe And how should the Sacrament giue grace of the worke wrought if faith were requisite in
Origens Purgatory was a paynlesse Purgatory Why speaketh he of any paynes but the paynes of this life Marke his words once again We do not celebrate the day of Natiuity cum sit dolorum atque tentationum introitus seing it is the entrance of sorowes and tentations but we celebrate the day of death vtpote omnium doloruÌ„ depositionem atque omniuÌ„ tentationum effugationem as that which is the doing off of all sorowes and the driuing away of all tentations Of all sorowes and of all tentations you sée which our day of Natiuitie is the entrance vnto Therfore saith he we both celebrate the Memories of Saintes and deuoutly keepe the Memories of our parents or friends dying in the faith But it followeth you say Tam illorum refrigerio gaudentes quam etiam nobis piam consummationem in fide postulantes Partly reioysing for their ease partly also requesting for our selues a godly finishing in the faith Do you not see that he expoundeth their ease to be their godly finishing in faith for then they rest according to the body from all the sorowes tentations of this bodily life in hope also to liue for euer after a while aâ—cording to the same bodies Which causeth vs also at this day to reioyce vnspeakeably when we heare that our friendes in Englande dye in the Church of God among so many tentations there to the contrarie and to thanke God for it with all our heartes though withall we say Masse of Requiem for their soules For so it foloweth after in Origen Oblations for the dead touching their friendes soules Celebramus nimirum c. And this we do in our celebration for our parentes or friendes We call together the religious with the Priests the faithfull with the Cleargie meaning by the Religious the Monkes which were the principall order of the faithfull or Layetie as the Priestes were the principall order of the Cleargie whiche I note by the way because of your saucines with D. Allen here procéeding of your ignorance in Antiquitie neither vnderstanding so much as these very words of Origen Inuiting moreouer the needie and poore filling with foode the fatherlesse and widowes That our solemnitie may be made to be a memorie of rest to the soules departed whose memorie we celebrate and maye to our selues be made to be a sauor of swetenes in the sight of God eternall That is a sacrifice of thankes giuing for them that were aliue as you interprete it shewing your great skill in the Scriptures He alludeth to Philip. 4. where S. Paule speaketh of the like charitie of the Philippians towards him calling it odorem suauitatis a sweete sauour that is as there it followeth a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God signifying that such works are passing meritorious as béeing in the morall sense meant by those burnt Sacrifices of the Lawe whiche all and not onely when they were for thankes giuing were called sweete sauours to God Pur. 427. The like ignorance you shew also in the former clause which is more to our purpose to thinke that memorie for one can not be a prayer for him Col. 4. as though S. Paule in prison did not commend him selfe to the Colossians prayers in saying Memores estote vinculorum meorum Remember my gyues Heb. 13. And to the Hebrues Remember them that are in gyues as if you were in gyues with them And as S. Augustine writeth Au. de Ciu. li. 21. ca. 27. Quod frequentatur ore Christiano That which is common in Christian mouthes eche humble person to commend him selfe to the deuout and to say Remember me deseruing also at his hands so to do And so in our Masse when we make for our friâ—d aliue memoriam patientiae a memory of patience for our friend departed memoriam requiei a memory of rest it is a prayer to God to giue him patience to giue him rest And that Origen meaneth euen so you may sée in S. Iames Masse where be the very words that he alludeth vnto Remember O Lord our God the soules of all fleshe of the right beleeuers from Abel the iust euen to this day Fac eos requiescere make them to rest in the land of the liuing in thy kingdome c. Nostrae vero vitae fines and direct in peace the finishing of our liues to be Christian acceptable and pure from sinne Cyp. ep 66 And therefore againe where S. Cyprian saith of one Victor being departed Neque enim ad Altaâ—e dei meretur nominari in Sacerdotum prece For he is not worthy to be named at Gods altar in the prayer of the Priestes what exposition is this of yours By prayer he meaneth not prayer for deliuery of the dead out of Purgatory Pur. 284. but as Origen saith for the faithfull liuing to haue the like godly departure as he had that was fallen asleepe Origen helpeth you not as I haue shewed and S. Cyprians words be so playn that you do nothing els but shew your obstinacy in wrangling vpon them and your ignorance in Antiquity Thrée things at Masse were and are vsually done for the dead First his friends offred for him partly his owne bequest partly their own charities Pur. 244. out of Chrysost to the sustenance of the Cleargie reliefe of the poore Secondly the Priest offered the Sacrifice it selfe of our price for him Thirdly he named him after consecration in the memorie of the dead to commend his soule to God among the rest All these thrée S. Cyprian hath there expresly Touching the first he saith The Councell decréed that if any do such a thing Non offeretur pro eo there should be no offering for him And therfore there is no cause that any offering should be made there with you he writeth to the Priests Deacons and Laity of the parish for the sleeping of Victor so he calleth the offering at the day of ones death because there are other offerings besides as at the months minds day and the twelue monthes mindday Touching the second he saith The Councel decréed also Ne sacrificium pro dormitione eius celebraretur That the Sacrifice should not be celebrated for the sleeping of such a one And touching the third He is not worthy to be named in the Priestes prayer at the Altar Et ideo non est c. And therfore there is no cause that any praying should there with you be vsed in the Church in his name For heede may be taken hereafter that this be done no more if this fact now be punished By which appeareth againe that it is but méere cauilling wheÌ„ you distinguish betwene Oblations of the dead Pur. 259. Oblations for the dead because oblations of the dead them selues no lesse then of their friends were oblations for the dead as S. Cyprian here expresly calleth it offerri pro eo to offer for him And therefore maketh against you not onely the second Toletane Councell as you also
confesse Pur. 426. which decréeth of such Penitents as dye before reconciliation saying Placuit nobis c. 2. Tole c. 12 It pleaseth vs that both the memory of suche may be commended to God in their Churches in the memento of the dead and offerings for their sinnes may be taken by the Priestes Item thré others which you neither would confesse nor could denie to wit the fourth of Carthage whervnto the Toletane doth allude decréeing of the same Penitents 4. Carth. ca. 79. vt memoria eorum orationibus oblationibus commendetur that their memory may be commended both with prayers and with oblations or offerings of their owne and their friends almes and of the Altar 1. Brac. c. 34 35.39 The first Bracarense decréeing of such as kill them selues vt nulla pro illis in oblatione commemoratio fiat neque cum Psalmis ad sepulturam eorum cadauera deducantur That no memorie be made for them in the oblation of the Altar nor their corpses brought with Psalmes to their buriall Simili modo In like maner that vpon Catechumenes dying without the redemptiō of Baptisme through their own fault Dying vnreconciled passing dangerous bicause they were not disposed to leaue as yet their yll liuing for which cause many nowe also in England do deferre reconciliation neque oblationis sanctae commemoratio neque Psallendi impendatur officium should be bestowed neither the memorie of the holy oblation which afore they called commemorationem in oblatione the memorie in the time of the oblation but you could not sée so much neither the office of Psalmes Appoynting moreouer that if any thing by contribution of the faithfull be offered eyther at the Feasts of Martyrs or at the minddayes of the dead the Hebdomadarie haue it not but to auoyde inequalitie and discord it be reserued of one of the Cleargie and once or twise a yere diuided betweene all of the Cleargie Not onely these Councels I say do so clearely make against you but also Vasense and the saide fourth of Carthage which you pretende to haue answered in saying that they are flatly falsified by D. Allen because you thinke that Oblations of the dead and Oblations for the dead are not with them as with D. Allen all one But to sée your wrangling let anye reasonable man conferre the two Canons as well of the fourth of Carthage as also of Vasense which D. Allen doth alleage The one Canon 4. Car. c. 79 95. Vase c. 2.4 béeing the 95. of Carthage and the fourth of Vasense excommunicateth the Executors qui oblationes defunctorum aut negant Ecclesijs aut cum difficultate reddunt Who either denie to the Churches or pay very hardly the Oblations of the dead qui Oblationes defunctorum retinent aut Ecclesijs tradere demorantur Who keepe backe or be slowe in deliuering to the Churches the Oblations of the dead The other Canon béeing the 79 of Carthage and the second of Vasense decréeth of obedient Penitentes dying by chaunce without reconciliation Vt eorum memoria orationibus oblationibus cōmendetur That their memorie be cōmended to God both with prayers and with oblations as also afore was alleaged Horum oblationem recipiendam eorum funera ac deinceps memoriam Ecclesiastico affectu prosequendam c. That their oblation be receiued and on the day of their buriall and afterwards vpon their other minddays the churches affection bestowed vpō them because it is vnreasonable to exclude their cōmemorations out of the healthfull sacrings to whom for their passing preparation to the same mysteries Fortasse nec absolutissimam reconciliationem Sacerdos denegandam putasset The Priest peraduenture would haue thought that neither the most absolute reconciliation should be denied For though to all obedient Penitents at the point of death they gaue both reconciliation and the fruite therof which is the blessed Sacrament of the Altar yet they gaue not to all such full absolution from the residue of their penance in case they recouered as we sée Con. Cart. 4. Can. 76.78 So then these foure Councels are against you besides the two General Councels of Florence and Trent which your Caluinicall spirite contemneth like an Heathen and a Publicane You promise D. Allen saying Pur. 187. Your Prouinciall Councels shal be answered by as good Prouinciall Councels as they are But where be those good Prouinciall Councels of yours I find where you promise agayne afterwarde and say Pur. 277. The Councell Bracharense as afterward I shall more playnly shew doth insinuate that no prayers were made at all for the soules of the departed in their Churche at their burials but onely a remembraunce of them in prayers with thankes giuing and singing of Psalmes For Purgatorie should seeme had not yet trauelled into Spayne But when you come to the place Pur. 426.427 3. Tol. c. 22. you playnely confesse the contrarie to wit a memorie for the dead in that Councell Mary the third Toletan Councell you there produce as for you in that it decréeth Religiosorum omniū corpora cum Psalmis tantūmodo Psallentium vocibus debere ad sepulchra deferri That the Corpses of all Religious at the least if the Bishop can not prohibite it in all Christians be caried to their graues with Psalmes onely without that funebre carmen quod vulgo defunctis cantari solet funerall heathen song which is wont to be song to the dead and with the voyces of the Psalmessingers without that heathen beating themselues or their neighbours or their families on the breastes And to make all sure against any reply you adde If you say this doth not exclude prayers and oblations they adde that it must be thought sufficient that in hope of the Resurrection vpon the Corpses of Christians is bestowed Famulatus diuinorum canticorum the office of the diuine Psalmes For so ought Christian mens bodies throughout the whole world to be buried So then this is your argument In carying the Corpses to their graues they did sing Psalmes Ergo in their Churches they had no prayers nor oblations for the Soules namely in Spayne whereas S. Augustine at the same time saide Aug. de cu. pro mor. ca. 1. 2. Mac. 12. Vniuersae Ecclesiae authoritas in hac consuetudine claret Although no where at all in the olde Scriptures it were read as it is in the bookes of the Machabees that Sacrifice was offered for the dead yet greate is the authoritie of the whole Church which in this custome is cleare where in the prayers of the Priest which are made to our Lorde God at his Altar the commendation also of the dead hath his place But to returne to your reason you might with it proue as well that now also we haue no prayers nor oblations for the dead because we carie the Corpse with Psalmes as also the whole dirige in effect is Psalmes and namely De profundis for the dead because it is a
his foundations of Purgatory though in other places contrarying your selfe after your maner you say It was somewhat risely budded vp in his time yea and throughly finished And to proue this his pretensed doubtfulnes you alleage foure bookes of his Enchir. ad Laur. cap. 69. Ad octo Dulc. quaest q. 1. De fide op ca. 16. and De Ciui Dei li. 21. ca. 26. In al which places he repeateth one saying as D. Allen noted before you answering it moste clearely and shewing against this pretensed vncertayntie of his that not onely in other bookes but in all the same bookes also and almost in the very same chapters Pur. 118. he holdeth as a matter of faith and to be beleeued of all Christian men that the prayers of the liuing do release some of their paynes in the next life And constantly as al other Catholikes euer did coÌ„fesseth that the sinnes or vncleane works of the liuing not duely by penance wyped away in this world must be mended after our death For De Ci Dei these words he hath August de Ciui li. 21. ca. 24. 13 Ench c. 110. Ad Dulcit q 2. Tales constat ante Iudicij diem per poenas temporales quas eorum spiritus patiuntur purgatos c. It is certayne that suche men beeing purged before domesday by temporall paynes which their soules do suffer shall not after the resurrection be committed to the torments of the euerlasting fire And a litle after Temporali supplicio ac sanctorum orationibus mundatos being clensed by temporal torment and prayers of the holy ones Which declaration of D. Allens was so euident that your selfe are compelled to say Pur. 110.196 Aug. ciu li. 20. c. 25. li. 21. c. 13.24 Pur. 121. Howbeit 21. booke c. 13. of the same work De ci dei he coÌ„cludeth very clerely and that vpon the texts Mal. 3. Esa 4. Mat. 12. that some suffer teÌ„porall payns after this life This may not be denied And yet that in the same bookes he was vncertaine you haue so playne words that you suppose D. Allen neuer read the places in Augustines owne bookes but onely receiued his notes of some elder Papists that had speÌ„t more time in gathering them but had not such audacitie to vtter them as M Allen. Who but you could or would for shame of heauen earth set such a face vpoÌ„ a matter so cleare of it selfe and so confessed of your selfe But which are those so playne words Ench. c. 69.68 Nonnullos fideles per ignem quendam purgatorium quanto magis minusue bona pereuntia dilexerunt tanto tardius citiusque saluari Some of the faithful after this life to be saued so much later or sooner by a certaine Purgatory fire as the more or lesse they loued transitory goods but yet hauing Christ in their heart for the foundation that is so as they preferred nothing before him but were ready to forsake all rather then him This to be so is not vncredible Et vtrum ita sit quaeri potest aut inueniri aut latere And whether it be so in deede it may be searched and by search either found or not found These are the plaine wordes in which to replye to D. Allens answere you will néedes haue S. Augustine so often in one booke and almost in one Chapter to be grossely contrary to him selfe one while certaine another while vncertaine of one and the selfe same thing But D. Allens answere according to S. Augustines plaine wordes in these chapters also as well as in the others is as it was that he speaketh not still of one thing or of one Purgatorie fire but of two diuerse The one Purgatorie fire is to punish so to purge by temporall paines the soules for there sinnes for their euill life though not so euill vt misericordia habeantur indigni that they may be thought vnworthy of mercy Of this Purgatory S. Augustine with all the faithfull of all ages holdeth him selfe â—o certaine The other Purgatorie fire is as the fire of Tribulation in this life for the most perfit also to passe through euen them whose life was talis in bono vt ista non requirat so good that they neede not to be releeued with the prayers of the Church and therfore not to punish sinne as now we speak of it but only to weare out by litle and litle rerum secularium quamuis licitè concessarum c. suche affections to worldly lawfull things as to wife c. that without griefe of mind he can not part from them so as the other can which builded golde siluer and pearles whose worke therfore is not burned vp quia non ea dilexit quorum amissione crucietur because he did not loue those things with the losse wherof to be tormented And of this Purgatorie S. Augustine was vncertaine as it is in dede very doubtfull saith D. Allen to this day also Pur. 119. not onely because we know not whether such worldly lawfull affections do remayne in the Elect soules departed but also because nothing but sinne and the debt of sinne séemeth to endaunger the soule to any payne whether it be poena sensus or onely poena damni Whervpon to say the truth it séemeth to me more probable although S. Augustine inclined more to the other side that there is not any suche Purgatory but rather that after full penance for sinne or full pardon of it the soule goeth without all delay straight to heauen And so I haue shewed plainly what S. Augustine was certain of and what he was vncertaine of thinking good withall to admonish the Reader that although for more perspicuitie I name two Purgatories out of S. Augustine yet I meane but one purgatory with two diuers operations as it is but one fire of tribulation in this life though it haue those two operations to purge sinne with punishment and to purge worldly lawfull affections with griefe of minde when we must in persecution depart from our beloued That also Purgatorie fire after this life is for the first of these operations it is certayne Whether it be also for the other it is vncertayne Hithervnto perteineth that also where you say Pur. 317. M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine De cura pro mortuis agenda neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto the Saintes for the dead and oppose to his affirming cap. 5. of the same booke Cum ergo mater fidelis c. Therfore when the faithful mother desired of Paulinus Bishop of Nola to haue her sonnes body laide in the Martyrs Church Si quidem credidit eius animam meritis Martyris adiuuari hoc quod ita credidit supplicatio quaedaÌ„ fuit If she thought his soule to be holpen with the Martyrs merites this her thinking was a certaine supplication haec profuit siquid prosuit and this supplication profited if any thing profited Here Augustine you say doubteth whether supplications to the
often as aboue in his Enchiridion graunteth the same fire to be also for the said mortall sinnes if one haue left committing of them but not yet fully redéemed them poenitentiae medicamentis with the plaisters of penance viij Of Limbus patrum And now we are come to your Doctors that you alleage agaynst Limbus Patrum The one is S. Augustine Pur. 56.60 Au. ep 99. of whose most cleare testimonie alleaged by D. Allen Because the (a) Act. 2. Scriptures make euident mention both of hell and of paynes I see no other cause why our Sauiour came thither according as we beleeue nisi vt ab eius doloribus saluos facerit But to ridde some of the paynes therof Fuisse enim apud inferos in eorum doloribus constitutis hoc beneficium praestitisse non dubito I am out of doubt that he was in hell and that he bestowed that gratious benefite vpon some that were in the paynes therof You are fayne to say that it is but the authoritie of a man But you haue another place a Gods name Where he semeth vtterly to deny that he came in that prison of hell And to make all sure you imagine what we will answere to it and then you make your reply But all besides the text like one that neuer saw the booke For he saith there as plainly as in the other place Fuit apud inferos Christi Anima diuinitas Aug. in Felicianū Arrianū ca. 17 18.15 Both the soule and the diuinitie of Christ was in hell But for what cause Vt anima animas reparet That his soule might repayre our soules and as aboue he said deliuer some soules out of their paynes there But not to suffer any paines there it selfe as the Arrians did blaspheme For if saith he in the words that you alleage his or the good théefes for it may be vnderstoode of either body being dead his soule is immediatly called to Paradise do we thinke any man yet so impious that he dare say our Sauiours soule in that three dayes of his bodily death apud inferos custodiae mancipetur is in hell committed to prison Lo syr what he vtterly denieth to wit that his soule was committed there to prison not that it came in that prison as to deliuer the prisoners Your other Doctor is S. Ireneus whom D. Allen first alleaged saying manifestly Pur. 55.59 Iren. lib. 3. cap. 33. that Adam was Implens tempora eius cōdemnationis quae facta fuerat propter inobedientiam Fulfilling the times of that condemnation which came by disobedience vntill our Lord came and then solutus est condemnationis vinculis he was released of the bonds of his condemnation And you answere that the name of Adam seemeth to be takē in these words rather for a name common signifying all mankinde then for a proper name Iesu how blindly Do you not know that he reporteth li. 1. ca. 31. that the proper Heresie of Tacianus was Adae saluti contradictionem faciens His ignorance that he gainsaide the saluation of Adam and after him S. Augustine Haer. 25. Saluti primi hominis contradicunt The Tacianistes gaynsay the saluation of the first man And do you not sée that he disputeth against that Heresie in the said place li. 3. euen from cap. 33. to 39. But you haue another place of his Iren. lib. 5. in fine where he plainly ouerthroweth our fantasie in that he saith of the place where Christes soule was those thrée dayes that it was suche a place as all his disciples shall rest in vntill the time of the generall Resurrection He saith not so he disputeth agaynst those old Heretikes Who said that immediatly assoone as they were dead they ascended aboue heauen and aboue the Creator and came to the mother or to their fayned father leauing their body for euer neuer to rise againe and therefore attayning al perfection and the highest promotion at once S. Irenée therfore auoucheth against them not only the Resurrection but also the order of the Resurrection and saith that if this were so then our Lorde giuing vp his Ghost vpon the Crosse would straight haue gone vpwarde leauing his body to the earth But he did not so Three dayes he conuersed where the dead were in the inferior parts of the earth in the middest of the shadow of death And then after that he arose corporally and after his resurrection was assumpted Séeing therefore no disciple is aboue his master saith he it is manifest by this that also his disciples soules shall goe he saith not into the same place but in inuisibilem locum definitum eis a deo into an inuisible place appoynted for them by God and there shall tarrie vntill the resurrection abiding the resurrection and afterwards receiuing agayne their bodies and rising perfectly that is corporally sic venient ad conspectum Dei so shall come to the sight of God to wit the whole man both in soule and body So he may well be vnderstood because the Soule of Christ also had the sight of God before his Resurrection Yet supposing that he thought neither so muche as the Soules to sée God before the Resurrection as some other Doctors did thinke vntill it was of late defined by the Church as I noted afore in the eight chapter yet that doth not declare as you pretende that he thought of Limbus Patrum otherwise then we do For you heard him saye afore that Adam at our Lordes comming was released out of that place béeing a place of captiuitie and nowe by him his soule is in that other inuisible place Whereof it followeth manifestly that by him the former place is not al one with the later And so thankes be to God I haue fully answered all that you alleage against Purgatorie or any other Article of the Catholike faith according to my promise in the beginning of this Chapter Whereby the Reader may perceaue perfect vnitie of faith to be betwixt the Fathers then and vs now notwithstanding all that you could bring And that so euidently that in most matters in most of the Fathers you were faine to pretend no lesse that one and the same man was not in vnitie with him selfe so that this chapter néeded not so much for defense of our doctrine as for the defense of the Doctors them selues against your childish and arrogant detractions ¶ The tenth Chapter That notwithstanding all which Fulke hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues and likewise euery one of those Articles standeth still in his force Euery one I say and much more al of them to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant BY the Summes or Argumentes of the chapters aforegoing the Reader may perceaue that being laide together they make a manifolde euident demonstration to the condemnation of the
you gather that the body of Christ which he saith was the Sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall body because he saith the Martyrs and it were all one He saith not so not that they are all one or the same but that they are of the mysticall body of Christ which whole mystical body is offered there to God in the offering of his naturall body for there are speciall memories of euery sort of the Saintes in heauen of the Soules in Purgatory of the Catholiks in earth The bread wine also in which his said naturall body and bloud are consecrated are such things a Au tract 26. in Ioan. Quae in vnum rediguntur ex multis as of many cornes and grapes are brought into one loafe and cup Water also b Cyp. epi. 63. to signifie vs againe béeing mingled with the wine Herevpon he saith in the same c Aug. ciu li. 10. c. 6.20 worke that in the Sacrament of the Altar it is shewed to the Church that in the oblation which she doth offer her selfe is offered And that aswell she by him as he by her is vsually offered And therefore it can not be thought that this naturall body there offered is offered to the Martyrs or to the Church as the Paganes and Manichées did charge the Christian Catholikes vpon their offering of that naturall body ouer the shrines of Martyrs You might therefore haue gathered as well that the Body which he offered vpon the Crosse was not his naturall body but his mysticall body the Church because in offering it there for his Church he offered his Church to God with it Reade De Ciu. li. 10. ca. 6. and there you shall sée that he sheweth how the workes of mercie are a sacrifice item a person consecrated to God Item our body Item our soule Item tota ipsa redempta Ciuitas hoc est congregatio societasque sanctorum the whole redeemed Citie it selfe that is the congregation and societie of the holy which he calleth vniuersale sacrificium An vniuersall Sacrifice And that after all these metaphorical Sacrifices he distinguisheth from them all not onely the Sacrifice of the Crosse but also the Sacrifice of the Altar which you confounde with that vniuersall Sacrifice not considering that he so often calleth it the one and the singuler Sacrifice of the Christians Besides these Pur. 361.293 you haue two places out of Tertullian and Ireneus The former sheweth you say what was the chiefest Sacrifice that they did offer to wit Prayer The other likewise sheweth that by the name of the Sacrifice of the Church he meaneth not the Sacrifice of the Masse which they call propitiatorie for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead but the Sacrifice of thankesgeuing and prayers Tertul. in Apol. Tertullian telleth there the Gentiles in defence of the Christians first what thinges they prayed for in the Canon of the Masse to wit for their Romane Empire among other thinges the place goeth here before cap. 9. pag. 197. Then why not to their Goddes Haec ab alio orare nō possum quā c. These thinges I cannot praye for of any other but of whom I knowe that I shall obteyne them quoniam et ipse est qui solus praestat c. For both he it is who onely doth geue them and I am he to whom is due to obtayne being his seruant which worship him onely Then also why not with their blood Sacrifices of fat calues c. qui ei offero opimam et maiorem hostiam quam ipse mandauit orationem de carne pudica de anima innocente de spiritu sancto profatam which offer to him a fat and greater host that which he himselfe commaunded to wit prayer pronounced out of a chast body out of an innocent soule out of an holy spirite Where in the name of that Prayer he comprehendeth all that is saide and done in the Masse of the faithfull which to this day also the Priest therefore beginneth saying vnto vs after the Gospell Dominus vobiscum Oremus Let vs pray and immediatly goeth to the bread and wine Hier. epist ad Euagriū c. Because this pure Sacrifice is made celebrated with Prayer ad Presbyterorum preces Christi corpus sanguisue conficitur Christes body and bloud is made by the Priestes prayers saith S. Hierome and because euen the old house of those Leuiticall bloud Sacrifices also was called Mat. 21. Isa 56. Domus orationis The house of prayer And as Tertullian setteth out agaynst the impure Paganes the puritie of the Church in her Sacrifice so doth S. Irenée set out the same against the Iewes and Heretikes Iren. li. 4. cap. 34. Mala. 1. to shewe that the pure Sacrifice in Malachie is offered by her alone quoniam cum simplicitate Ecclesia offert Because the Church offreth with simplicitie of faith hope and charitie whereas the Iewes hands are now full of bloud and all the Synagogues of those olde Heretikes helde the bread and wine to be of an yll creation For this cause he telleth them that the conscience of him that doth offer beeing pure doth sanctifie the Sacrifice and causeth God to accept it as comming from a friend And that the Sacrifices do not sanctifie a man Non enim indiget Sacrificio Deus for God doth not neede a Sacrifice so as néede should make him glad of it as it maketh a begger glad whether the giuer be a friend or a foe And do not we say the same Can any Heretike pleade as vpon our verdite that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread or wine yea or also the body it selfe and bloud of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall Communion no lesse then we doe in the Masse And yet the Sacrifice of it selfe is suche as pleaseth God and sanctifieth the offerer but for his owne indisposition Like as Baptisme of it selfe would cleanse the conscience Heb. 9.10 though oftentimes it doth not for fault in the receiuers of it For it is not the worthines of men but the worthines of Christ whereof the owne and proper vertue of his Sacramentes and of his Sacrifice both of the Altar and of the Crosse dependeth Motiue 35. 25. Monkes My 25. Demaund noteth that these Heretikes haue cutte off from the Church her best and perfectest member to wit Monkes and Nunnes who were so common in the Primitiue Churche that to bring all to the fashion of the Primitiue Church as they pretende they shoulde haue made all to be Monkes rather then none to be Monkes And Fulke doth nothing here but helpe our side in that he * Ar. 29.85 Pur. 87.297.250 Hic cap. 9. often reiecteth Monkes Heremites Anachorites Canons Fryers Nunnes graunting them no place in the Churche of Christe partely by an argument ab authoritate Ephes 4. negatiuè whiche I aunswered here in the 24. Demaunde treating of Bishoppes Priestes and
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
yet he is warned withall if he be a great sinner not to thinke but that he oweth muche more then he is inioyned and therefore that he muste eyther paye it otherwise in his life or procure pardon for it by greater authoritie or els most certainely it will be exacted after his death These I say are all the chaunges to belong any way to the controuersies of this time though you note some others not so belonging Which therefore I might omitte welynough For it is inough for vs that we can say with S. Augustine Aug. epist 165. In hoc ordine successionis nullus Donatista Episcopus inuenitur In this orderly succession no Donatist nor Protestant Bishoppe is founde As for other matters if Iulianus Apostata chaunged into Paganisme what were that to our purpose Woulde that do any thing to proue a chaunge agaynst vs namely that the Emperour whiche nowe is Rodolph the second is chaunged from the Religion of Constantinus the great So therefore if any Pope had chaunged the Romaines into Arrians or into Monothelites that were no vauntage for you Howe muche lesse considering you shewe neither so muche as that You tell vs Pur. 376. that Sabinianus condemned the Decrees of hys predecessour Gregorie and Stephanus the Decrees of Formosus c. Why then doe not you make Sabinianus rather the first Antichrist but skippe him and make the next to him the first to witte S. Boniface the third Both he and some other Popes are said I graunt though you alleage no author to haue disanulled certaine Actes of their next predecessors but not one to haue condemned any decrées made of doctrine Againe you tell vs Ar. 27.85.92 Pur. 344. Act. 23. that many of them were tyrantes traitors whoremongers Sodomites murtherers poysoners sorcerers necromancers warriers and one whore also So you blaspheme the Princes of your people But you shew not that any of these if they were such did for all that chaunge Religion at Rome S. Augustine long agoe told vs where he reckeneth vp the Bishops of this Chaire that it were nothing against the Church Aug. epist 165.166 Si quisquam Traditor per illa tempora subrepsisset if any Traitor had crept into it al the while because our Heauenly Master hath said vnto vs of euil Prelates Doe what they say but doe not what they doe for they say and doe not Mat. 23. warning vs thereby and assuring vs That for them the Chaire of healthfull doctrine should not of vs be forsaken in which the euill also are compelled to say that which is good For it is not their owne that they say but it is Gods who in the chaire of vnitie hath set the doctrine of veritie Wherefore also if any heretike créepe into it we are secure because we are warranted that he shall not teache his heresie out of it much lesse shall he chaunge them whom he teacheth For none teach heresies but you and such others that separate your selues from the vnitie of that Chaire Ar. 91. Pur. 376. Therefore supposing that Honorius was a Monothelite both in opinion and in some secrete writing yet did he not chaunge nor goe about to chaunge the Romanes into Monothelites Yea both he and the Church of Rome in his time and after his time did faithfully resist and mightily ouerthrowe that heresie as you may sée in D. Saūders a San. Mo. li. 7. pa. 418 Monarchie Where you shall finde also the case of b Ib. p. 518. Ar. 91. Pur. 443. Iohn .22 truely reported he was so farre from chaunging the Romanes faith that he vtterly denyed the error which his contentious enemies laid vnto him Which was not as you and Caluine doe belie the storie against the Immortalitie of the Soule and resurrection of the body but whether any Soules doe sée God before the Generall Resurrection Also of S. c Sand. ib. pa. 324. ad 336. Liberius of whom I also will report the truth in the next Demaund howbeit your selfe likewise confessed Cap. 2. Pag. 3. the Romanes long after his time to haue continued without all chaunge Finally that fable of d Sand. ib. pa. 436. Onuph addit ad Plat. in vita Ioan 8. Cop. Dial. 1.5.8 the woman Pope cléerely confuted and more copiously by Onuphrius and others Mine owne chaunce it was in England long agoe hearing a Protestant who was counted a great Historian stand vpon it to say vnto him that it was maruell why among so many Historiographers not one made mention of her before Martinus Polonus who was .400 yeares after her time He therevpon brought out the same Martinus in a faire written hand turned to the place and behold shée was not in the text but in the Margine in an other hand Nowe quoth I when I saw that I perceiue that also this Author fayleth you He was confounded to sée it and saide he would at leasure looke his Bookes better Therefore in harping continually vpon these most vnconsonant stringes you do no more but declare your selues to be such as the Apostle prophesied of They will turne their yeares away from trueth 2. Tim. 4. they will not abide it as that S. Peter was euer at Rome c. but vnto fables they will turne themselues most willingly be they neuer so false improbable and absurd 46. Our Auncetors saued and theirs damned Motiue 36. To make it yet more plaine what a madnesse it is to forsake our Churche and turne to the Protestantes I note in the next Demaund Saluation to be so certainly in our companie and Religion that the Protestantes themselues dare not say our people to haue béene damned for so many hundred yeares as they liued and dyed in our side Whereas we say boldly with the holy Fathers here Cap. 3. that whosoeuer is a Protestant not onely in all but so much as in any one point as were Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius c. is therefore a damnable Heretike But they dare not so say neither of our Masters who knowing the preaching of those fellowes condemned them and therefore could not be excused by ignoraunce No not so much as of the very Authors of our Monkes and Friers as S. Bernard Saint Frauncis S. Dominike of whom what Peter Martyr saide I reported Cap. 5. Pag. 33. the whole Chapter is also of Fulkes owne wordes to the same effect specially Pag. 30. where he dare not pronounce of manifest Papistes but that they might be saued for building vpon the foundation in his sence though no Protestant builde vpon the foundation in S. Paules sense as there I shew Therefore his Diuinitie maketh with me in this Demaund rather then against me although he denyeth some particulare Saintes of ours Ar. 23.24.25.85 and also the Canonization of Saintes An easie matter it is for Heretikes when they can not proue the Catholike religion to be heresie agaynst God to make it by their Parliament Treason against the king and then when they put