notwithstāding in y e most part of men y t thou sholdest not thinke thou art alone therfore haue not I good cause to cōplain But now I wil not tell thée euery thing for it is day I will haue thée go to prouide for thy necessaries for else I should want my selfe to morowe as thou sayedst I will returne into my selfe as I doe nowe and will tell thée at large whether I haue cause to lament of thée or no. Iust Oh wilt thou depart frō me Soule Departe no for then as I tolde thée thy death should folow Iust I had feare of that and therefore did I aske thée Soule I will vnite my selfe againe with thée til to morow in y e morning Iust Wel but my soul I wold y ◠to morow whē y u comst again to me we do not as we haue don this morning Soule Why Iust I woulde if it were possible that we should beholde one an others face For in this sort me thinke I am half mocked and I haue douted till a litle while since lest thou haddest talked in mine eare by a wile as I haue sene one doe with a dead mans head which had bored an hole in a plank at the foot of a deske vpon y ◠which stode y e dead hed by which a trunk did passe into y e mouth of the head y ◠euery mā thought it had ben a spirit of y e which thing I stand yet in dout of thée And finally I wold haue thée certainly assure me whether thou art my Soule or no as thou sayest Soule Very wel I am contēt I wil deliuer thée of this dout by by ▪ heare and mark well what I say vnto thée and I will speke it softly that no mā heare it if any be by for it is a secret which none other knoweth but Iust the Couper which is thou and I. Iust I am sure for this I know that none other person but my selfe knoweth therfore since thou knowest it y u art also I I haue no more doubt Therfore y t we may to morow reson more effectually I would y ◠one of vs might sée an other for then it séemeth a man speaketh more the truth than thus without seing together Soule It is impossible y t thou sholdst sée me as I am bicause I am without a body I haue neither figure nor color for y ◠figure y e quātitie be only in bodies color can not stād but in the vpper part of the same wherby I am inuisible but I might well take a body and so might I shewe me to thée Iust And howe Soule Thou professest a scholer of Daut haste thou not red it in his purgatorie I coulde with my vertue informatiue make me a body of aire giuing it thicknesse and after colour euen as the Sunne makes the Air◠grosse vaporous wherof comes the raine bow The whiche waye the angels holde and other spirites when they will shewe themselues to men Iust Thou wilte make me beleue some straunge thing then Soule What straunge thing hast thou not reddde in the Gospell that Christ when he appered to his disciples after his resurrection that they should not beleue he had one of these bodies he sayd touche me for spirits haue no bones Iust Then let vs do so but sée with al that thou partest not from me nor go frō my body for I wold not die yet Soule Well I will finde the way not to part at all Iust And howe for I will vnderstande that and not lette this thing passe for it is of too great a waight Soule I wil seperate my selfe wyth my intellectiue parte and with onely fantasie without the which I coulde not vnderstande leauing in thée all my other powers that is vegetatiue by the which thou lyuest and sensitiue by the which thou féelest and discourse by memory that thou might reason by the helpe 〈◊〉 things which thou knowest and demaunde me what thou wilte Iust And by this meane shall I not dye Soule No I say Iust Very well remember then I am out of perill and I will not sée thée before Soule Doubt not I say and lose no more time but rise and goe to thy businesse ▪ for the sunne is now risen Iust Well well tomorow we méete agayne The .ij. Reasoning SOVLE IVST SInce thou sléepest no more aryse make thée ready and light a candle and in the meane time I wil forme my selfe a body of this aire about euen as I said vnto thée yesterday that thou mayst sée me and we at our ease talke together Iust Oh my Soule with a good wil but heare me I praye thée remember that I saide vnto thée Soule What Iust That thou makest no separation from me wherby my death might ensue Soule What nedest thou to replie so oft haue I not saide vnto thée that I will leaue in thée all mine other powers but onely intellect and imagination which is it that makes you vnderstande and not it that makes you lyue for that is the power called vegetatiue the whych you haue common wyth trées Iust If I beare no peril of death I am content and if I do not agree vnto it blame me for beastes lyue and vnderstand not Soule Ah foole dost thou esteme life so much that thou woldst rather choose to liue fiftie yeres without vnderstanding as a beast than tenne with intelligence as a man Iust For my parte I had so doest thou thinke it a prety sporte to die I tell thée I neuer sawe any yet come againe and of Lazarus that was raysed they say he was neuer séene laugh afterward and that was bicause he was afraide to die once againe so fearefull was the first vnto him Soule This thou speakest bicause that part which is voyd of reason is it that nowe speaketh in thée but if I were with thée thou wouldest not say so Iust I knowe not that and as for me since I can remember I haue euer ben of this minde and yet thou haste ben with me Soule It is so but as a seruant not as a maistresse as I ought for 〈◊〉 thou haddest folowed my counsell and not the other called sensuall thou wouldest haue done as Paule did many other which desired to be taken out of thys life where they knew they were Pilgrims and brought home to their coūtrey Iust Thou beginnest to trouble my brayne till a man comes to the points of death euery one saith so but when death is present the man changeth his fantasy remember our master y ◠went to pray in the gardin to sée if he coulde escape death Soule Ah Iust he did it not for that but to shewe with these passions naturall that he was a man as he had shewed by miracles and with workes supernaturall that he was God but let vs reserue this talke till a more conuenient time what meaneth it thou arte so long about to light that match Iust I thinke it is
as myne dothe me so as myne may well be a dreame yet I can not beleue it for I knowe many thyngs which I did not before But now that I am sure I sléepe not nor dreame not I wyll sée yf shée wyll reason wyth me as she hathe done and call hir as she appoynted yesterday in the mornyng I shoulde doe My soule O my soule Soule What wouldest thou Iust Iust Sée it is trewe that I dydde not dreame I woulde wée shoulde talke a whyle together as we haue done and that thou wouldest contente me in that thou dydst begyn to speake of yesterdaye in the mornyng But sée I wyll not that thou go out of mée any more as thou hast done these two mornyngs For I passe not now to sée thée and I know I haue bene in greate peryll and also playde the very foole to put my selfe in suche hazarde wherevpon my lyfe laye Soule What perill was that Iust As thou sayest thou haddest a greatte wylle that I shoulde studye wherefore when thou haddest bene from me and mynded to returne no more to mae but for to enter into the bodye of some Studente then shoulde I haue bene a body withoute a Soule and yf not as dead yet at least one of the base beastes Soule Doubt it not Iust thou art in no suche daunger for if thou remembrest wel I tolde thée I dyd not in all separate my selfe from thée but only with my part diuine y ◠which is suche as being immortall may be withoute thee Iust Very well and bycause she may be without me therfore I feare bycause I would not become a beast I say and sée one other with my brain and with his sell me by and by and then other euery day ten times Soule Although I can be withoute thée which shall be after that separation that death shall make of vs neuerthelesse I can not informe any other body but thée til the day of iudgement Iust Wherfore Soule Bycause of that perpetuall qualitie that I must informe thée and none other Iust What is that qualitie thou speakest of Soule It is a certaine conuenience and inclination that I haue to worke by thée to begyn to taste my perfection which was not gyuen me of God at my creation as to angels which if I had I shoulde haue no nede of thée And this is the onely thyng that maketh me differ from other soules bycause we being not different in kind as of y ◠other beasts forasmuch as we be reasonable they not nor can not be different in number bicause we be not materiall it shoulde folowe that we were all one thing and this consideration hath brought many greate men into greatest errours but one of vs is different from an other by that qualitie respecte that she hath with hir body and not with other Iust I will be playne with thée I vnderstande not this matter Soule Maruel not for Duns whom they call the subtill Doctour who thought he vnderstode it better than other gyuing it the name Eccheita a name altogether strange to the barbarous eares muche more to the Latines did not vnderstande it perfectly him selfe Iust Then let it goe for I woulde not that we shoulde enter into these toyes and then happe to me as dyd to hym that going aboute to blynde other mens braynes dydde so blinde hym selfe as he was buried quicke Whiche thyng myghte well happen to me if I were founde once wythout thee therefore tarrie wyth me as thou haste done for I wyll no more abide the perill and I care not nowe to sée thée Soule I sée thou haste such feare of our separation that it is full tyme I deliuer thée of it Vnderstand that although I haue tolde thee I goe out of thée yet I neuer dyd nor can doe it but by death and that is bicause I am thy forme am not in thée as a mariner in a ship as many haue beleued Iust This is a new tricke what I haue séene thée Soule It appeares s◠to thée Iust Appeare wilt thou make me beleue I see not a thing when I see it Soule I say it dyd but appeare so Iust Which way Soule I wil tell thée I moued from those visions and images which thou hast in fantasy and represented them to thy vertue imaginatiue as I doe when thou dreamest and so it semeth thou dyddest see me Iust Canst thou deceyue me after this sort Soule I can and in this sort spirits deceiue mē many times and therfore their apparitiōs be called fantastical Iust What is it true there be spirites in déede Soule Dost thou doubt Iust I can not tel I haue heard say of many learned men that they bée things fained things that appeare only to certain simple mē that they come somtime of melācoly humors y ◠bréede by hearing of strange things Soule They be of those lerned men that think they vnderstand all things and shewe they haue redde little in Stories or in Scripture and litle to beleue in the same which is worse I tell thée that spirites be and besides this make them that beleue them to seme they be sometyme an other thing hast thou not hearde that they that be witches think they be Cats Iust Be these sorcerers also true Soule Would God they were not true which he suffreth for our sinnes Reade what the Count of Mirandula writeth of one that he had in his hāds And the Canonists wold haue forsene that it had not ben true whiche haue made a particular law of the witched and enchaunted Iust Surely that is a greate argument but let it go Thou hast taken a great waight from my heart saying thou wylt not go from me But now let vs turne to our talke yesterday in the morning tell me whereof comes it that these Doctors do◠so discorage other from study shewing them it is a greater paine than to cary the stone of Verma as the Prouerbe sayth Soule Thou knowest Iust that the least part of men be good but whether this commeth either of the infirmitie of the fleshe or of euill custome or of little religion I will not nowe dispute Iust Thou sayst truth ther be more bad than good and do so increase that I feare we are nygh the ende of the worlde Thou séest how we haue growen worse worse these fiftie yeres I wil not reason of Popes Cardinals and Priests and lesse of Friers that thou sholdest not by and by proclaime me a Luterane But consider children of ten yeares olde how they be without reuerence without shame bolde dishonest and mocke a man of fiftie yeres Alas I remember that in my time we passed twentie yeres before we knewe what Venus or Bacchus was and nowe so soone as they bée borne the one is gyuen them for a nurse the other for a master Soule Ye may thank their good education and the small wisedom of their fathers which think it a propre thing
much to my cōfort for ther is not a better thing in the world thā for a man sometime to deceiue himselfe thinking he is wise or faire or suche like And he that is in this case enioyeth the world without any care Soule Yea to fooles it hapneth so Iust And haue not they pleasaunt dayes also Dost thou not remember of our physitian of Florence which a while was frantike foolishe and being sought vnto of a pore woman to helpe a sonne of hirs that was in like case he answered good woman I will not deale in it for I should doe him to muche wrong for I neuer had so pleasaunt time as when I was so diseased my selfe Soule Let these reasons goe for they be not conuenient to our nature and muche lesse to thy age and since thou wilt not speake heare me for I wil not faile to doe that I haue promised Iust I shall gladly doe it for it is so much betwixt this and day that I shold be so idle and that would irke me Soule Iust I haue many times cōsidered with my self y ◠al those things wher by they blame olde age for thou knowest with old men the other do not much kéepe company bicause they of one age are euer glad to talke togither may be reduced to foure causes that be principall of all and by the meane of age reputed noysome and grieuous of euery man Iust Which be they Soule The first is that it maketh them vnméete to do things y ◠secōd it makes their body weak the third it depriueth them of pleasures the fourth that he is nighe death Iust Thinkest thou then that they blame it without cause Soule Yea sure and that thou maist know the truthe with thine errour let vs first examine diligently this their opinion and to begin with the first tell me what things be they whereunto a man is made more vnapt by age Iust What be they euen all Soule I would not haue thée say so for thou art wrōg but wilt thou know which they be only they that be done by force they be rather méete for beastes than for men the greater parte of the which be made of greater force thā we be for our seruice that they might case vs of superfluous trauaile to vs she hath giuen wit to serue our selues with it So if thou considerest wel thou shalt sée that the greater parte of these operations y ◠haue néede of much force be things seruile all wise men makes them to serue for those turnes But the great things which be of importance be not done with force but with councell wisdome of the which things olde age doth most abound Iust And what makest thou of Art of warre thinkest thou that can be done without force Soule No but in this many times councell and prudence doeth more than force Iust Whom canst thou make beleue that that wher néede is to do he is more profitable that sitteth saith nothing than he that bestirreth his hands Soule All they that haue so muche knowledge or become so prudent by experience of things which knowe it is cléere that it is much more hard well to know how to commaund and gouerne than to do well and obey For standing in this thy opinion there should folow that he were more profitable in a ship that roweth or hales or spreade sailes thā the master that gouerns al for they worke and he stands and commaunds Iust What should he doe that commaundeth if he had not that did obey Soule Fewer faultes a great deale than they should if they had not one to commaund them therfore if thou consirest wel thou shalt sée few cities maintained in felicitie but y ◠be gouerned of old men For although yong men somtime augmēt yet cā they not maintain for yong mē be caried with Wil which in them is like the thirst y ◠a great ague bringeth with it whereby they suffer themselues to be ouercome of loue of anger or of many other passions which y ◠age hathe And further they be so ambitious desirous of praise that many times they aduēture inconsideratly vpon enterprises so hard and daungerous ▪ that they bring away no lesse hurt than shame And that that is worse they be cruel and put hope in euery litle thing they make little accompt of their owne they import their secretes to euery mā whereby it is an easie thing to deceiue them The which thing hapneth not to olde men which for their long experience and for that they haue oft ben deceiued of things of the worlde they put not so rashly themselues to perill they tell not so easily their minde they beleue little and hope lesse And bicause they haue learned how hard a thing it is to get riches they cast them not awaye as yong men doe but make store of thē to haue when néede shall require Iust And so the most parte become couetous berieuing them selues of that liberality wherof there is nothing foūd so profitable for man and chiefly to thē that shall gouerne other for it causeth that men serue them for loue and euery man knoweth that rule that is done by loue is muche more sure and durable than that is done by force Soul That thou thinkst in yong mē liberalitie is for the most part prodigalitie for young men giue easily to them that praise them or bring them any delight where olde men bycause they are more prudente and knowe things better giue more to whom is conuenient in the which thyng liberalitie proprely cōsisteth So as thou séest howe much thou art deceiued to say that age maketh a man lesse apt to do things wher as it maketh them more experte and prudent with the which vertues as I sayd before only great affaires be done Iust Wel be it so as thou hast said which in dede I wil not vtterly deny for abiding of trauel is rather a thing of beasts than of men to whom counsel and discourse belongeth wilt thou denie me that old Age doth not bring w t it so many infirmities as it so enfeebleth mans bodie y t it is to be shoonned and deserues to be blamed Soule All other ages doe the like rather worse than it For those infirmities that childhode and youth bringeth with it be much more perillous For they be more sodaine and sharpe i◠respecte of the humors and bloude which be more of greater force in yong men than in olde Iust How wil you proue that Soule What néede I labor in it for experiēce wil make thée certaine séest thou not that there die more children than yong men and how fewe they be that come to olde age Iust Certainely in this thou haste reason for I do not beleue that of thē y ◠be borne two of the hundred comes to fiftie yeares Soule And wherof thinkest thou cometh that but that those ages be subiect to more dangerous diseases than olde age is Iust
¶ The Fearfull Fansies of the Florentine Couper Written in Toscane by Iohn Baptista Gelli one of the frée Studie of Florence and for recreation translated into English by W. Barker Pensoso d'altrui Sene allowed according to the order apointed Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman ANNO. 1568. To the gentle Reader IT may be gentle Reader that the basenesse of the Title wil cause a contempt of this Booke as the homely shape of Alcibiades tables without made men thinke they had bene of no better forme within But as they being vnfolded were found very faire So per aduenture vnder so plain a cloke thou shalt see suche stuffe as may content thy minde I remember that when the Florentines seÌ„t an embassage to the king of Naples who behaued himselfe very wisely the King did aske what maner a man he was in his couÌ„trey and when it was tolde him that he was an Apothecary If the Apothecaries quoth the king be so wyse and learned in Florence what be their Physitians If I shall shew thee that the setter forth of this treatise was a tailer of Florence thou maist vse the kings curtesie and embrace the booke the better for if tailers be so wel giuen ther what be they that professe lerning A Couper was the occasioÌ„ why he toke pain this way which Couper of a plaine man had a good natural discourse and as some men when they be olde will talke sometime with themselues so the talke that olde Iust the Couper hadde with himself when he coulde not slepe did minister matter to the maker of this presente booke who by other occasion hath made diuers other to his coÌ„mendatioÌ„ in the Toscane tong I finde that occasion may doe muche For had not I had once a man that vsed often to talk with him self and a felow whose name was Iust as it might wel be I had no more remeÌ„bred the talk of father Iust of Florence which I red when I was ther and thought no more of But as Iohn Baptista Gellie for so is the Tailer called and for his wisedom chief of the vulgar vniuersitie of Florence when I was ther did publish these communications of Iust the Couper and his Soule Gathered by one sir Byndo his nephew and a Notarie So I haue for a passing of the time caused the same to be put in English that my Countrey men may see how learning may appere in all sortes of men and they deserue praise wheÌ„ they will vse it well And so o Reader maist thou vse thy pleasure and doe as thou shalt thinke good ⧠▪ ⧠⧠¶ The Reasoning of IVST the Florentine Couper and his SOVLâ— Gathered by his Nephewe Sir Byndo The first Reasoning IVST and his SOVLE IT is well nighe day and I can not sléepe it shal be better to rise do somwhat than on this fashion to lie in bed and not sléepe for I can not thinke that this only slumbring can be very healthfull Soule Well I poore wretch may now assure my self that I shall neuer haue rest nor coÌ„tentation in this bodie neyther yong nor olde Iust What voice doe I heare who is there Soule When he was yong I helde him excused for his want of Liuing although he held me alwayes occupied in this his handy craft For first it is necessarie to prouide for the néedes of the Bodie and then to séeke for the perfection of the Soule Iust Who is there I say Who is that that whistleth in mine eare Soule But nowe he is olde hath sufficiently I thought surely that if he had giuen him selfe to contemplation somtime liued half in a trâ—ce that I hauing no cause to minister spirit to his senses might withdrawe me to my selfe and enioy those intellections of the firste principles that I brought with me since that I haue w t him learned none newe Iust Do I sléepe or no it séemeth in my head but soft it may be some reume that makes a man thinke he hath whistling in his braine Soule And nowe hée folowyng the maner of olde men whiche the older they be the more couetous they are as soone as hée waketh hée ryseth to worke Iust Oh she files hir wordes and is in my heade and speaketh euill of olde men What thing may this be Iesu Iesu God graunt that no spirite be entred into my body Soule Stay thy self Iust and be not afrayde for I am one that loues thée more and haue more care to preserue thée than any other that is in the worlde Iust I can not tel so great loue nor so great preseruation It is a greate gentlenesse to enter into a mans hed and neuer leaue babling As for me I beleue thou art the wicked whistle In nomine Patris Filij Spiritus sancti Amen Soule Although it be well to blesse thée as thou doste bicause it groweth of a good meaning procéeding from a good faith in thée without the which all your workes be dead yet now it is nothing to the purpose For I am a christian as thou art yea if I dyd not beleue in Christ thou shouldest be no christian Iust Séeing thou fearest not the Crosse thou art not the whistle as I thought but more like to bée the spirite that as men say walketh all the night and therfore I wil say a prayer to make thée goe hence Procul recidant somnia noctium phantasmata hostemque nostrum comprime ne polluanantur corpora Soule Ah foole if thou knewest who I am thou wouldst not séeke to driue me away but rather pray me to tary still for if I should go from thée thou couldest not liue Iust Thou art full of words dost thou thinke it a prety sporte to heare a noyse thus talking in a mans head which haste made me almoste beside my selfe Soule Thou haste well sayde not knowyng how that thou art halfe beside thy selfe But when thou shalte know who I am thou wilt not maruell Iust Then tell me what thou art that I may assure my selfe of thée Soule I am content knowe thou Iust that I am thy soule Iust My soule how Soule Yea thy soule by whome thou art a man Iust Oh howe can that be am not I my soule my selfe Soule No. For thou art one thing and thy soule an other and Iust the Couper of Sainct Peter the greate is an other Iust If I am not Iust the Couper then I am made an other therefore I sayde well that thou wert some euill thing which wouldest doe to me as was done to Grasse the carpenter who was made beleue that he was become an other man but that shalt thou not doe by me for I will stande constant Soule Be content Iust and moue not thy self for there is nothing that doth more hurt reason and the vnder standing of man than anger Wherfore quiet thy self and beleue me for that that I tel thée is y e truth it self Iust Wel let vs put case that I am not Iust
as thou sayst but sée I doe not graunt thée it for if I did so what would other do who am I then Soule Thou art the body of Iust Iust And who art thou Soule The soule of Iust Iust Thâ— what maner thing is Iust Soul We two together for neither is the body nor the soule the maÌ„ but that coÌ„pound thing that coms of them both And mark that wheÌ„ the soule is separate fro the body it is called man no more but a carcas after the Latin tong and a deade body after y â— vulgar spéech so as thou spakest before when thou saidst y â— wert half beside thy self Iust This is true and I can not denie it But heare me if thou art my soule as thou sayst what means this thy beginnyng to talke of thy selfe without me shalte thou euer depart from me â–ª Alas I would not that for then I should die as thou sayst Soule Haue no doubt of y â— Iust for I haue no lesse will to remaine with thée thaÌ„ thou hast to remain with me Iust O blessed be y â— my swete soule Soule Yea I praye thée that thou wilt not put me from thée Iust Mary God forbid beleue not that for I wold liue loÌ„ger if I could than did Mathusalem Soule Yea but y â— is not inough for y â— may not do as one of our Citizens did which was wont to say y â— he neuer put away seruant but he handled them so whome he liked not as they went away of themselues Iust And what wayes be they that I must kepe y â— thou goe not froÌ„ me Soule Take héede thou make no disorder whereby the temperature of thy complexion wherevpon thy life is founded doe not come to suche alteration as it choketh thâ— â–ª vital spirites and force me to depart â–ª froÌ„ thée Iust And if I regarde my selfe as thou sayest how long wilt thou tarie with me Soule So long as thy grounded moysture â—e not dried vp for thy naturall heate shall bée quenched â–ª as a lampe that lacketh oyle Iust And wherof commes that Soule Of age the which is nothing else but a drying â–ª vp of the one and a cooling of the other Iust O good Soule hears â–ª me teach me then if ther he any way to restore this moysture that thou speakest of that dothe quenche as the oyle of the lampe that it may continue longer Soule There is none other waye but that whiche nature hath taughte thée giuing thée appetite to eate â–ª and drink with one of the which heate with the other moisture is restored Iust Then he that eats and drinks well shall neuer die Soule Rather the contrarie for too much nouriture â–ª doe gendre too great quantitie of humours â–ª and the moste parte not good whereof come those infirmities that violently doe strangle the liuely spirites euen as a light put out by force and is the cause of death before our time Iust Oh how might a man then do it by eating and drinking by rule Soule Neither by this could a man liue euer â–ª for that restorement that is made is of moisture â—eate which be not of y â— perfection as those which nature haue giuen although they 〈◊〉 better or worse in one and an other according to the coÌ„plexion And Iust thou knowest y t in this thing it haps as doth in a vessel of wine out of the which if thou takest euery â–ª day a drop and put in as muche water â–ª in space of time it wil come to passe â–ª that it is no more wine nor can not be called watred wine but rather wined water bycause there lackes in it â–ª 〈◊〉 worke the operation of wine euen so when moisture and heate restored by outwarde meane of eating and drinking do ouercome the naturall it can not doe those operations that the naturall doth wherby the life falleth to decay Iust What is the cause that amoÌ„g men that vse all one manner of diet some haue longer life than other Soule CoÌ„plexion which one hath by nature better than an other by which his heaâ—e is more temperate and his moisture lesse apte to be dried vp and corrupted as in sanguine 〈◊〉 and al them y t haue their moisture lesse watry more â—â—ry â–ª Of the which thing thou mayst see euident experience in trées amoÌ„g which they that haue watrie moisture â–ª as alders willowes salowes and other like endure but a while they that haue airy as pine â—â—rre cypresse do liue long time â–ª and and all this commeth bicause the airy moisture is more hardly dried corrupted than is the watrie Iust Oh my soule I do not remember that since I had vnderstandyng I haue euer had so muche pleasure as this morning and forasmuche as I am a litle assured of thée and begyn to beleue that thou art my soule and not a spirite or a vision as I thought at the first I will aske thée certaine questions Soule Say what thou wilte for I willingly answere thée Iust But before I doe aske any thing I would haue thée tell me why after we haue ben together .lx. yeare or more thou haste deferred to discouer thy selfe and to reason with me as thou dost now for if thou haddest done so before I should perhaps haue beÌ„ an other maner maÌ„ thaÌ„ I am now Iust There haue ben many causes that haue kept me from doing of it the principal cause hath ben thineage not apt vnto it for in thine Infancie and Childehoode thy members and partes be not apt to my seruices and in thy growing and youthly time the passions of the sensitiue parte that then be most vehement in thy ripe yeares care how to liue at lust hathe not suffred me to withdrawe â–ª me into my selfe as I haue done now when I am not letted of like things â–ª although as yet â–ª I can not do it as I would for thou being afrayde euery houre not to lose that thou hast as other old couetous men thou doest not suffer me to rest one halfe houre in the day for when thou hast eaten or sleptte thou runnest to thy work wherby I being forced to minister vitall spirites to thy senses and thy members I neuer haue any rest and of this did I lameÌ„t at the beginning if thou remeÌ„brest when I began to talke with my self Iust Wel tel me for this it is that I wil aske thâ—â— first what is the cause why thou didst lament of me Haue I not alwayes loued thée euen as thou haddest ben my proper soule and my life as thou sayst thou art Soule Yes but thou haste muche more loued thy selfe and where thou oughtest to haue loued thy selfe for my sake and haue made much of thy selfe that I mighte the better haue wrought in thee mine operatioÌ„s thou hast loued me for thy seruice so the parte lesse worthy lesse noble hath euer coÌ„maÌ„ded y e more worthie more noble as it doth
somewhat moist and the stone is not very good and this iron hath almost worne out the sâ—éele Soule Thou doest as the Poet Daut saith in his banquets All artificers not cunninge doe impute all the errours they do to the matter they work on why diddest not thou say bicause I am olde and haue the palsey and misse the stone oftener than I hit it Iust That is true in déede I cannot deny it and would to God I did not so al soin other things for I haue delite to do nothing and I am come to such a time of age that euery thing is irksom vnto me and very pleasure is vnpleasant to me Soule And yet wouldst thou not die Iust Doest thou not heare that I would not Soule And doest not thou sée that this life of thine is nothing but a death Iust Though it be I haue séene of them that be much more elder than I and haue no téeth and goe with theyr mouth to the grounde and yet would not die rather I wyll say vnto thée that the elder a man is the more doth death grieue him and I haue séene the proofe in my selfe for when soeuer my heade doth but ake my heart quaketh and I begin to say Woulde to God this be not my last request for I didde not so when I was young rather doe I remember that I hadde a sicknesse that brought me euen to the port of an other world and yet I neuer thought to dye but rather laughed at them that would haue hadde me confessed so as if I had dyed then I had gone withoute any care or griefe whych nowe I shall not doe for I thinke of nothyng else and lyue euen as he made the declaration of the Tyrantes lyfe Dionysius of Scicily whych tyed a naked sworde with a horse haire and hong it ouer his head Soule And what is the cause Iust as thou thinkest wherefore death is more fearefull to olde folkes than to yong Iust I thinke bicause they are more entangled with the world in the which they haue liued so long Soule Ah that is a very simple reason and taketh place onely in â—otyes as thou art and I beleue thou haste learned it of Trées whych the longer they lyue the déeper roote they make and are then harde to be pulled vp but by the reasonable discourse whych thou haste and long experience which thou oughtest to haue by thy longe time thou hast lyued thou oughtest to haue made a better reason Iust Be contente thys may perhappes come of that thou sayest that a man who hathe lyued longe and made a Iudgemente by longe experience more perfect doth better knowe howe goodly a thyng lyfe is to him and howe much he ought to estéeine it and haue it in price wherefore it grieueth him the more to lose it thaÌ„ it doth a yong man that doth not knowe it As it would grieue a man more to lose a iewel that knoweth the value therof than it wold him that knoweth it not Soule This thy second reason is not much worth neither though it were true it maketh no lesse for hym that would say the contrary than it doth for thée Iust Which way tell me Soule Bicause if he that liueth getteth a iudgement by the which he knoweth better the things he shal knowe also better how full of miserie our lyfe is And if a man should not hope for a better in the other world he should be the most miserable and vnhappy creature in the vniuersall worlde which is manifestly against al right of reasoÌ„ he being the most perfecte of all hauing vnderstanding which is a most diuine thing by the which not onely the holy letters but also the Pagans and Gentils do cal him lorde of all other Creatures and the ende of all other things which they say are made of nature for him Iust Howe canst thou proue that a man should be the most vnhappy creature of the world if he dyd not hope for a better life than this Soule Bicause in this life he is much disgraced naked without a house not able to speake hauing nothing to eate vnlesse he getteth it and when he hath it cannot vse it vnlesse it be of other dressed wheras other beasts be borne clad some with one thing some with an other they haue their houses some vnder the earth some in woods some in flouds and the earth bringeth forth all things nedefull for them without any payne and what testimony canst thou haue more cléere of this than Plinie which in his consideration of al things was so angry with Nature as he called hir mother of beasts and stepdame of man Iust Wel I am content it be so but what makes this to my reasoÌ„ which y â— saist is aswel against me as with me Soule Bicause he y â— shal handle these matters reasonably without any affection he wil conclude that his felicity is not in this life wher the other brute beasts inferiour to him haue it if they may neuerthelesse be called happy of y â— which being certified by natural reasoÌ„ the light of fayth he wil not much regarde lyfe but rather be troubled with a desire to be out of it and to go to the other as they haue done that haue despised vice gon by the way of vertue so as if thou hast no better reason this is only in aparaÌ„ce coÌ„cludeth nothing Iust Oh my Soule wherof cometh that Soule That is it I haue thought to tell thée O my body for so must I call thée to speake rightly not Iust as I haue done wil doe bicause I will not trouble thy brayne too much but wilt thou that I tell thée Iust Yea I pray thée for I desire nothing so much Soule It commeth of little faith and surely ther is nothing that causeth deth both to olde and yong to be sorowfull but that they beleue too little Iust Ah ah a great Citizen of ours said well who I thinke had in himselfe proued by experience when he caused his graue to be made halfe within the Church dore and halfe without Soule Well this thou must thinke Iust y e men be like vnto on vs wherof the yong be soone taken But as thy friend Daut fayth In vaine the Nette is 〈…〉 de In vaine the shafte is shot At birds that haue their wings at wil And for the snare care not Iust Oh God I thinke thou sayst true bicause I remember since I was a yong man that many times at certain deuotions that we made in a company certain prechings that I heard I was easely to be entreated to die But nowe backea while for I would make any contract to liue Soule Ah ah how thinkest thou is it not as I haue faide but maruel not at that for the maner of yong men and women is easely to beleùe Iust I am of thine opinion but heare me the fault is more thine than mine for thou art she to
Iust Then you be as a man might say a thyng of nothing Soule Yea folowing the opinion of the common people whiche call that nothyng that is not compounded of earthe water of fire makyng no accompt of aire I thinke if in this chāber there were not these chestes thys bed and other thyngs thou wouldest say it were emptie if thou wouldest say truthe Iust Should I not say it wer emptie when nothing is in it Soule Yes surely but there shoulde be somewhat in it Iust What should there be when there is nothyng I feare me thou woldest make me beleue glasse wormes to be lanternes Soule The aire should be there Iust What aire or no aire when a tubbe is emptie I knowe there is nothing in it and I sée it euery day Soule And what vessels be they that thou euer hast séene emptie Iust Mary all those in my shop Soul Ah foole be they not ful of aire Iust No for if thou lookest well there is darkenesse and where aire is there is light Soule Then the nyghte when it is darke is none aire This is as ye speake of yong babes whiche you say haue no soules vntill they be baptized which if it were true it shoulde folow that neither Turke nor Iewe had soule but let vs leaue this Thou art little practised and followest the ignorant but that thou shouldest not remain in this thy false opinion thou oughtest to vnderstand that the ayre hath a body as well as the water or the earth but it is a little more fyne is darke of it self yf it be not lightned of the Sunnebeames or of some other lighte And further thou must vnderstande that no emptye called Vacuum can be in Nature that is to say that in this vniuersall worlde there is no place but is full of some bodye And of this thou mayst make a thousande experiences euery daye but I will teach thée but one and that is with that vessell wherewith thou watrest thy gardin for stopping the the hole aboue the water commes not out of the holes beneath and that cometh of none other cause but that the hole aboue beyng stopped the aire can not enter in whereby if the water shoulde goe oute that place shoulde remayne voyde the whyche bycause Nature can not abyde she makes the water remayne contrarie to hir nature in that place Iust And who knowes that that is the cause Soule Who knowes euery man that hath witte Iust I will tell thée the truth these be certaine things that I can not skil of and I think they be toyes to make a man madde I doe knowe that a vesselle that hathe nothyng in it is voyde and I can neuer beléeue otherwyse I hope that thou wylte not vse me as Mathewe Serui was who was made to beleue that he was an other man than he tooke him selfe and that he was a Carpenter and made Tergates whereby he entred into such a conceipte that when he came to houses where he vsed to goe and sawe olde Tergats hang there hée beganne to saye that he knewe of them that were made of hys owne hande Soule Then sée howe harde it is when one is farre brought to vnderstande a thyng euill to sette hym in the ryght way Iust What wouldest thou say that when I woulde euen nowe haue embraced thée and founde nothyng that I did imbrace somewhat ah Soule Dyddest thou not imbrace the aire Iust What ayre I knowe I imbraced nothyng within a while thou wouldest make me beleue that when my stomacke is emptie it were full the whiche yf I woulde beléeue I shoulde dye for hunger God kéepe mée Soule I saye vnto thée that yf wée should graunt voidenesse a thousand inconueniences shoulde folow as for example If betwene thée me were nothing thou couldest not sée me Iust Oh God sée howe this geare groweth For out of doubt it is contrary for if there were any body betwene thée and me then coulde I not see thée Soule It is true if it were such a body that thy syght or imagination coulde not passe thou couldest not sée me but that should rise of an other occasion than a voide place betwéene thée and me Iust Tell me howe this thyng is meant for I vnderstand it not Soule If betwéene vs were emptinesse none aire thē shold ther be no light Wherfore the beames of thine eyes coulde not come to thée nor my image come to thine eyes For light is a qualitie and qualitie is an accident and no accident can stand without a subiect that rules it then if here were none aire that did stay the light here coulde be none Iust As for me I vnderstand not what thou meanest Soule Heare then if thou canst vnderstande me an other waye when thou standest by the fyre what is it that heateth thée Iust The fire Who knoweth not that this is a childishe thing Soule But that is not true Iust Oh what heates me the wind Thy matters be childrens toyes if I would beleue them Soule The aire heateth thée which toucheth thée whiche is heated of the fire for the fire not touching thée can not heate thée for no body can worke in an other vnlesse he touche it Iust What meanest thou by that Soule I meane that if there were any emptie place betwene thée and the fire thou shouldest neuer be heated For that heate whiche is an accident hauyng nothyng to holde it coulde not come vnto thée but béeyng stayde by the ayre whiche commeth to thée that ayre that toucheth thée being hotte doth heate thée also Iust Wel I wyl tel thée the truth Thou myghtest tell me thys tale an hundred yeare and I beleue I should neuer vnderstande thée any thyng to thys purpose and neuer beléeue thée Soule I sée thys mornyng thou art not apt to receyue the truthe therefore I wyll not talke of any other thyng and it is tyme thou goest to thy worke To morowe at the accustomed houre I will goe from thée and take this bodye and reason wyth thée and thou shalte be better dysposed to vnderstande mée than thou art nowe Iust If wée tarrie vntill to morowe thou shalte peraduenture bée better in thy brayne and tell me no thyngs that no man vnderstands Soule But sée thys nyght thou kepest thy candle lyght for I wyll not thou spende so muche tyme aboute it to morowe The .iij. Reasoning SOVLE IVST THe crowing of the cock hath not serued this morning O Iust to wake thée it is almost day and thou stepest thou answerest not but stretchest thy selfe what meanes it Iust I am halfe mynded to be angry with thée Soule Why arte thou sorie I haue broke thy slepe Iust For slepe I care not yet it greueth me thou haste waked me for I haue dreamed the most swete and plesant things that euer I saw Soule What things Iust I can not so welle tell thée for they were not as I am wont to dreame things that haue neither hed nor
taile and begin with one thing ends with an other But me thought I was in a quietnesse and without any trouble remeÌ„bring the resons we haue had together and I will tel thée one thing that I haue vnderstanded sleping that I coulde not doe yesterday wakyng of that VacuuÌ„ or emptie place which yesterday would not enter and I remembre I haue pierced a full barel and neuer could cause wine to come out if I did not first open a vente and I neuer considered that it came of that thou diost speake And I will tell thée more that nowe I know how a swimmer a companion of mine was one day deceiued of one of out citizens that wan certaine fishes of him whiche of them shoulde stande longest vnder the water and heare how he did He desired to holde on his heade one of these pottes with two eares saying he did so bicause the water did hurte his head and he that vnderstode not the deceit did graunt it him My friende set it on his heade downewarde and occupied the tyme that the aire that was within did not go out and so no more water did enter than doth in a cuppe that is rineed downeward in such sort as he might stande as long as he woulde hauyng no water aboute his mouthe Thou séest what I haue vnderstanded by dreaming Soule And whereof thynkest thou commeth this dreame since thou callest it a dreame Iust What know I wherof commeth other that I haue all the yere Soule No Iust for this didde rise of me onely and the other that thou dreamest riseth of mine other inferiour partes and of spirites which do represent to thée sléeping the images of those thyngs that Fansie hath impressed in the bloud by the meane of the senses and therfore many tymes we dreame in the night those things we sawe in the day and the more the bloud is altred the more strong and disordinate thyngs wée dreame as thou mayst know by thy selfe when that thou haste bene sicke or troubled with a feuer or when thou hast bene well washed with wine in the which yf it bée good thou thou haste delyght Iust It hath pleased thée also as I thinke for I neuer dronke but when I was whole Iust of whom thou art so great a part as thou sayst Soule Ah ah thou haste now learned so much philosophie as thou knowest that neyther the soule nor the body of it selfe is man Iust I can not tel I haue told thée Soule Surely when soeuer one is touched where it grieueth hym hée crieth But be not angrie Iuste I wyll not for all thys speake of thée any villanie For in very déede it is is not altogether euill to me for good Wine maketh good Bloud and good bloud dothe make the spirites more cléere whereby the senses maye the better healpe to woorke my operations Iust I looked thou wouldest haue sayde And good bloud maketh a good man and the good man goeth to Paradise Soule Make thée ready make thée ready quickely and sitte downe that we may talke together at leasure Iust Sitte thée downe till I bée ready Soule Ah Iust thou doest not yet vnderstand that I am one of the substances without body and immortal and suffer none of those thyngs that doe offende thée and that that I will now say vnto thée may be a mean to make thée beleue that thy dreamyng thys mornyng was not a dreame in déede bycause it proceded not altogether as the other which thou hast wisely called dreames of y e sensitiue parte which thou hast common with other brute beastes which do dreame also but it was as I told thée only my work with the help of thy senses For whiles thou wert dreaming finding my self frée I dyd retire into my self and with my part diuine for so may I call it hauing it of God I did work in thy partes apt to vnderstande and to learne those intellections and conceipts which thou confessest thou neuer hadst before wherby thou mayst easily persuade thy self that although I am vnited to thée in suche sort as it semeth I cannot be without thée that I am immortal and can wel be without thée seing I can do some operatioÌ„ without thée as thou hast perceiued Iust I will tell thée the truth thou doest persuade so wel that thou sayst that I can not but beleue thée bicause I thinke that thou being my part I meane when I am perfect Iust that thou oughtest not to deceiue me But now I am ready and I will sette me downe as thou baddest me and aske thée certayne questions more quietly than I haue done Soule Say what thou wilt â–ª for I wil satisfy thy desire in all thyngs that I can Iust The first thing I would knowe of thée is Why thou shouldest lament of me for the first time that I hard thée speake in my head as I remeÌ„ber thou saydst thou neuer hadst rest in me being yong and lesse couldst hope to haue any now when I am olde Soule Iust neuer repeate that for if I did lament of thée I had good cause Iust I do not remember that euer I did any thyng against Iust for then I had done it against my selfe and then haue I done nothing against thée séeing thou sayst that thou and I be Iust Soule It is so but thou haste not done as I would Iust How can that be for I neuer knew till nowe that any other was in my selfe but I but if thou louest me as thou sayst I pray thée thou wouldst tel me wherin I haue offended thée that at least the little time we haue to lyue together I may no more offend thée Soule Wel Iust I am content Dost thou not know that I am the noblest creature that is from the Heauen or the Moone dounward Iust Yes and I haue heard it preached many times Soule Dost thou not know also that I am all diuine all spirituall made of the proper hand of God after his similitude preferred afore all creatures that be in this world Iust I haue read all thou saist in the Bible but of man not of thée only and let vs vse it so that thou dost not attribute it to thy selfe only where I also haue a parte Soule Iust our vnion whereby of vs is made man is so maruellous that what is spoken of the one is spoken of the other as Aristotle doth well shew saying that he that saith the Soule loueth or hateth myght as well say the soule spinneth or soweth neuerthelesse this dignitie thou haste of me bicause thou art earthly corporall without reason but I cause y â— thou art called a person diuine a creature reasonable Iust And how Soule It were a long work to make thée vnderstand that let it suffise thée y â— I being with thée becoÌ„ming thy form by mean of thy vital spirit which is the â—and y â— holdes vs togither I make thée a creature y â— taketh
of it in the which consists the beauty and besides they will take some words vsed of Boccace or Petrark very seldom the whych they thyncke the goodlyer bicause they be seldome vsed of them bicause they haue not by nature the true signification nor the true sound in the eare they put them in euery place and many times out of purpose and so they hurt the naturall beauty therof Iust I doubt if they cannot inunitate other it might not be sayde to them as one Pippo said to Francis di Loma who thinking to excuse him selfe of a crosse-beame which he had made in the gallerie of the Innocentes which bowed toward the earth saying he had taken it out of S. Iohns Temple he aunswered thou hast counterfaited only the worst of it but if the tong be of such perfection as thou sayst wherof comes it that many of these lerned do blame so much them that translate any thing Soule With what reason Iust They say the tong is not apt nor worthy that such things should be translated into it and that it taketh froÌ„ them the reputation and much embaseth them Soule All tongues by the reasons I haue shewed thée before be apt to vtter theyr conceit and the businesse of them that speake and if it were otherwise they that vse them make them so therfore alleage not this excuse for it is nothing worth Iust What cause then can moue them to say that things translated into the vulgare be abased and lose theyr reputation Soule That which I tolde thée this other day which was the occasion of so many other euils euen the wicked ennie and desire they haue to be compted more than other Iust Surely I beleue thou saist truth for I remember me that being one day among these learned folke and one of them shewing that Bernard Segne had traÌ„slated Aristotles Rhetorike into the bulgare one sayde he had done a great euill and being asked why he answered it was not méete that euery vulgar should vnderstand that which an other with great trauayle hadde learned in many yeares in Latine and Gréeke bookes Soule O wordes inconuenient I wyll not say onely to a Christian but to a man knowing how much we are bound to loue one an other more to y e soule than to the body to whoÌ„ no greater good can be done than to make easy the way of vnderstanding Iust But softe a while I remember they say an other thing Soule What Iust They say that the things that be translated out of one tongue into an other neuer haue the force nor grace that they haue in their owne Soule They haue not that in theyr owne that they haue in other for euery tongue hath hir fynesse and delicacie peraduenture the Toscane more than an other and he that wyll sée it let him reade Dante or Petrarke where they haue spoken of any thing that was before spokeÌ„ of a Latin or Gréeke Poet and he shall sée they passe hym farre and that in fewe thyngs they be inferiour Iust But in translations they muste haue more regarde to the sense than to the wordes Soule I know they translate by reason of science and not to sée the force or the beauty of the tongs and if it were not so the Romanes that thought theyr tongue the fayrest in the world would not haue translated the feates of Mago of Carthage into their tongue nor tho Grecians that were so proude and vayn glorious of theirs calling all the reste barbarous the Egiptians and the Chaldeis workes Neuerthelesse in translating beside that a man ought to be faith full he must séeke to speake the wordes as ornately as he can Therefore it is necessary to him that translateth to know well the one tong and the other and then to possesse well the things or Sciences that be translated that he may vtter them well and pleasantly according to the nature of the tong for if a man will tell the things of one tong with the maner of an other tongue it hath no grace at al and if this were obserued translating perhaps should not be so much blamed Iust They say further that they doe contrary to the authors intent Soule How can that be séeing who soeuer writes he doth it for none other purpose but that his things being preserued by letters and not losâ—e by voyces might be vnderstanded of all the world Iust Then thou thinkst that to translate sciences in our tong is good Soule Yea I affirme nothing can be more profitable nor laudable bicause the greater parte of errours coÌ„meth of ignorance and princes ought to regard it bicause thei be fathers of the people and to a father appertaineth not onely to gouern his children but also to teach them and correct them and if they will not do this in euery thing at least they ought to doe it in necessary things Iust And which be they Soule The lawes as well diuine as humaine Iust What profit should that bring to men Soule What profit how much more should they be louers and defenders of christian religion if it were begon to be read of children and from hand to hand exercised in the same as the Hebrues do which thing they can not do not hauing them translated and well placed in the vulgare Iust It is no maruell though the Hebrues do all so well know to speake of things of their law and a shame it is to christians which teach their children to read eyther matters of marchandise or other things wherof no good is to be gotten wher they ought to teach them firste what appertaines to a christian knowing that those things which be learned in the first yeres be euer more than other kept in memorie Soule And beside this with howe much more reuerence and attention shold we stande at seruice if we did vnderstand what is said Iust Truly it is so Soule Tell me with what deuotion or what minde do men praise God not vnderstaÌ„ding what they say thou knowest wel the talke of Children and Popeniayes is not called a spéech but an imitation of a sound only bicause they vnderstand not what they say for spéech is properly to expresse words that may signify the conceit and the meaning of him that speaketh wherefore our reading or singing of psalmes not vnderstanding what we say is lyke the tatling of Children or the babling of Popeniayes And I know no religion but ours that kepes this forme for y â— Hebrues praise God in Hebrue the Greeks in Greeke the Latines in Latin the Sclauonians in Sclauony thanks be to S. Ierome that translated euery thing in their tong as a very louer of his cuÌ„trey Iust Surely my Soule this thy opinion pleaseth me much Soule It may please thée for it is S. Paules who writeth to the Corinthians that they ought to say their Seruice in Hebrue Howe shall an ignorant say Amen vpon your blessing if he vnderstand not what is said and
sonne the way the truth and light of y ◠worlde that the creatures reasonable mighte by the meane of this be broughte to their perfection which certenly is nothing else but a contemplation of the first and vnspeakeable veritie Iust Both in this and other I will do that thou wouldest haue me Soule Thanke thine age whyche hath so cooled thy blood and weakened thy force as thou leauest a parte the pleasures of the world and art reduced to this way of life Wherefore it may be rather sayd as once that Citizen didde that sinne hath left thée before thou it Iust Bée it as it may I wil not contende with thée Soule Nor I wold not for this but thou sholdest cōtinue to do well for if thou hast begon to liue in order by necessitie this seruile feare for so wil I cal it might one daye by the grace of God be turned into the feare of a son By the which thou should deserue no lesse thanke of hym than reputation of the worlde Iust It can hardly be brought about but youthe and other ages will haue their course and hée that doth it not yong will doe it olde as those birdes that can not sing in May sing after in September but let vs speke no more of this delyuer me from the doubt I tolde thée Soule Althoughe there haue bene many opinions of them whiche the worlde calleth wyse whyche haue sought howe I should knowe and vnderstande thyngs they may be reduced to two for two principall sectes haue ben that haue spoken and written of mée One of them is that hold I am immortall all diuine created of God moste good and greate and poured into thée and of these Plato with his other Achademicall Philosophers was chiefe an other is of them that hold that I haue my beginning with my body And of this Aristotle with his Peripatetical scholers is head although he spake not so as it might cléerely be gathered of his wordes whether he held I was mortal or immortall but hée strikes at large somtyme and sometyme so at hande as some holde by hym that I am immortall and some mortall Iust Howe doth he it Soule I wyll tell thée Hast thou euer hearde of one that asked counsell to take a wife And when he sayde Shée is faire take hir quod the other And when he sayd she is of euil bloud take hir not then sayd he but she hath a good dowrie take hir then No she is somewhat proude take hir not And so he still answered yea or no as he brought forth new matter And so dothe Aristotle with me For when he considereth me vnited wyth my body he sayth I am mortall and when he considereth me as an agent intellection that I can worke without it he sayth I am immortall so as finally he that readeth hym is neuer certain whether I am mortall or immortall Iust Peraduenture he was not certaine himselfe Soule I think so surely Wherfore he dyd as they do that loue y ◠worlds glorie more than the truthe whyche when they know not a thing bicause they will not lose their estimation they wyll not confesse it but speake confusedly that men shoulde rather thinke they wyll not speake it than that they know it not Iust Of how great euil is this worldly pride the cause Soule Yea and that maruellously Consider a little in things of religion that they which the worlde calleth diuines for y t they wil not confesse they do not vnderstande thyngs appertaynyng to Faith by naturall light they haue taken vpon them to proue it by propositiōs of Philosophy which is al contrarie to Faith for that procedeth with order naturall principles and faith excéedeth passeth all nature Iust Who haue these ben Soule Those which commonly we call Scholasticall which haue sought a reason of euery thing that God hath made with their learning Iust I maruell he is not once surely angrie with them Soule That is bycause he is the chiefe goodnesse Iust As for me I knowe no prince but that wold be angrie with his seruant that woulde knowe a reason of all his doings Me think this is plainly to cal God into the consistorie But tell I praye thée whether these be the diuines that are called Paris schole Soule Euen they thou hast hit it Iust Oh those matters are decayde For Bartol y e bokeseller my neighbor hath told me that he selleth no more of thē that he hath an hundred horsloade which he wold barter for cleane paper and giue somewhat to boote Soule Thāk y e Lutherans who giuing no faith but to y e holy Scripture haue caused y ◠men be forced to returne to rede them to leaue such disputatiōs Iust Marke that it is true whiche is sayd That many times of a great euill commeth some good But let vs leaue thys and turne to our talke Soule Of these two sectes which I spake Plato which held I was immortall diuine séeing that I vnderstode euery thyng sayde I was created of God full of all sciences eternally And after when I descended into thée for so God had ordeined that I shold purgo me of certain spots that I had I forgot them al and after by helpe of Schoolemaisters and exercises in studies I returned to my minde and so hée sayde that our learnyng was a remembrance and not a learnyng of newe Iust That opinion I could like wel inough Soule Thou woldest say so if thou heardest the reasons that he maketh whiche be such as they made Origene and many other christian diuines to holde the same opinion and Austen also when he wrote vpon the Genesis although he dyd retract afterward Iust Did Origene reuoke Soule Not that I know Iust And dyd he saye too that you were made of God eternally Soule Yea and that we wer of angels shape whiche opinion was after reproued of the churche as erronious and hereticall Iust Thou makest me now remember of my neighbour which said that our soules were those little Angels which were not comprehended in sin nor in seruice of God but betwéene bothe and were after sent into vs to be determined whether they wold folow good or euil it was neuer knowen he helde this opinion in his lyfe but after his death it was founde in his bokes Wherfore his bones were taken vp and buried out of the church yarde Soule Who was that Iust Mathew Palmer dost thou not remember but thinkest thou he was damned for this Soule I do not beleue it for though this opinion is holden erronious yet he feared God and regarded the honour of the same and he was a louer of his neighbour as thou doest well know in the which things consisteth all christian religion So as it is not to be beleued that a man of so holy and good behauior for holding such an opinion which is not against the honor of God shoulde be damned and
chiefly beleuing he did not erre and being euer disposed to chaunge to the contrary when nede had bene as he so playnely dothe confesse in his bookes Iust I will not then say that as his body was taken vp by the comaundement of him that then did gouern the Florentine Churche so hys soule was sent to Hell Soule It were euill for vs Iust if it lay in their power to send vs to Hel as it is in theyr power to take vs from Purgatorie as they saye and take none oute but suche as pleaseth them or paye them somewhat for so would they sende all them that were not obedient to their willes what so it were Iust Of Purgatorie I woulde not much care since ther be Bulles found out to fetche vs from thence Soule But they gyue no more for as they dyd put much money in their purses one way so are they great losers an other Iust Howe losers Soule Of that is sprong the Lutherane doctrine which hath caused them beside the losse a thousād dishonors I wyll speake of none but of him that toke in hand to delyuer a mans father from Purgatorie promysyng a Floren and as soone as hée hadde it in hys hande he ranne his way saying you sayde he is out and that is inough for mée for I can neuer thynke you will be so cruell that you wyll putte hym there agayne for one Florens sake Iust Here it was lyke to that that Carlo Aldobrandy dydde to the obseruant Friers to whome he was bound by a legacie of his vncle to pay euery yere two Florens to say an office for his soule Then a certayne pardon commyng from Iulio whereof these Friers were ministers gyuyng pardon to take soules oute of Purgatorie the sayd Charles tooke one for his vncle and made it so to be written with their hande and after when they went to him for theyr two Florens according to the legacie he answered he was no more bound to gyue it thē bicause he was in Paradise and had no nede and in Hel was no redemption and out of Purgatorie they themselues had deliuered hym and shewed them their own hand But let vs leaue this talke for I will not that we speake against the Church Soule Ah Iust if thou knewest that the church is nothing else but the vniuersitie of good Christians that be in the grace of God and not these vicars that goe hither and thither fléeing the people of the worlde or these Friers that haue deuised to delyuer them selfe from the penance of labor which God hath giuen vs exercisyng the inquisition rather to maintayne themselues fat and liue at ease than for charitie thou wouldest not so say but let it suffise thée that Dant sayth For their curse we do not lose The loue eterne our chiefe repose Iust I can not tell but I thinke it an hard thyng not to be buried in the churchyard Soule Ah Iust it is well séene thou art a body and thinkes after nothing but y e body Dost thou not vnderstand that this is one of y ◠things that hath bene ordeined of them rather for the profit of them than any benefit of vs Iust What profite haue they Soule They make it be payde by waight of golde which thing Pontanus considering vsed to say that christians were the moste vnhappie and miserable nation in the worlde bycause they must pay for the very erth they were buried in Iust In very déede it is a very wicked thing Soule And where they haue theyr Masse for a work of mercy they ought to call it a worke of gaine Iust Frier Succiell sayde well that there were six workes onely of mercy And when he preached he exhorted men to giue meate to the hungrie to clad the naked the other good workes and when he came to the buriall of the dead of that sayd he I wil say nothing for he that will not bury thē let hym kéepe them in the house But lette vs leaue these talkes and make an ende to tell me that thou haddest begoon Soule I am contente therefore marke well Aristotle with them that followed hym the whych me thynke holde mée mortall saying That I haue my begynnyng wyth thée and that I can worke nothyng withoute thée and that I am nothing of my self but onely apt to learne by the meane of a certaine lyght I haue in my self called of them intellect agent by the which I vnderstande certaine things which be intelligible by theyr owne nature as that one thing can not be and be in all one time and such lyke called of them first principles and of thy Dant first knowledges and wyth the help of these they say that I lerne all things So yf thou holdest these things with Aristotle thou canste neuer know how I can do these things without thée But if thou holdest with Plato thou shalte haue no difficultie at all Iust Then what shal I doe if thou tellest me nothyng else I remayne more confused than I was before not knowing whiche of these two be true Soule Maruel not for such is the sapiēce of the world al they that will walke only with the light of that the more they learn the lesse they know and wax continually more vncertain and lesse quiet Which Salomon wold very wel signifie when he sayth He that ioyneth Sapience to a man ioyneth dolor Iust Wel what way then must I take to satisfie my desire Soule Runne to the Light of Faith as I sayd in the beginning Iust that wer to enter into a more vn certaintie Soule Why Iust Bicause the things of Faithe as thou sayst be much more difficult and farther passe our knowledge thā of nature Soule Yea to them that séeke to vnderstande them with naturall lyghte as I sayd before but not to hym that walketh with simplicitie of heart and light of the same Iust And howe shall one do to haue thys light Soule To prepare as much as mās power may to receiue it and then as the Apostles dyd to aske it of God who hauyng sayde to vs Aske and it shall be giuen you he wil not fayle to giue them vs. Iust And what preparation is it we must make Soule First to persuade our selues that there is one intelligence that vnderstandes more than we and though we doe not vnderstande howe he can make a thing yet it foloweth not but he can do it Iust In very dede it were a greate presumption not onely a foolyshnesse to say I vnderstand not this thyng and I can not do it therfore it cannot be done Soule Yet there be inow that hold this opinion and they may promyse them selues neuer to haue the lyke light bicause it is written God resisteth the proude and to the humble he gyueth grace Iust And worthily Soule Further it behoueth to be exercised in the studie of holy scripture and aboue all to be a louer of religion and euer to haue it in honour and
reuerence most great for who so euer is a despiser of his religion ought not to be called a man muche lesse to be put among the louers of sapience as Aristotle sayth of those Philosophers that did dispise and denye the Gods And so doing we obtaine of God the light of Faith the whiche as I haue sayde vnto thée is onely it that may quiet mans vnderstanding Iust Wel séeing thou iudgest it good to quiet my selfe and be firme in the determinations of the faith I am content and therfore I pray thée that leauing those things whiche the wise of the worlde thinke thou wouldest tell mée what the christian religion hath determined for in the other I neuer found quiet nor contentation Soule Thou must beleue bicause so it is that so soone as the bodies be disposed God of his infinite power doth create vs diuine immortal and doth create vs all equall as touching those powers without the which we should be no reasonable soules but after gyueth vssome particular giftes for our benefite knowing that by the meane of them we may the more easily obtain our perfectiō and that we might worke also holily in the ministerie of God wherof he giueth to one the gift of prophecie to an other the interpretation of Scriptures to one one thing to an other acording as his sapience disposeth semeth good to hys goodnesse And yet no mā ought to lamente though it be in his power to make of one matter some vessels for honour and some for rebuke Iust I thought you all had ben equal that those differences y t are knowne in a man had risen of the goodnesse or of the imperfection of the body had not bene particular giftes of God Soule So thinkes also all the wise of the world which walke only with the light of nature And therefore not to lose more tyme thou must know that if I knowe any thyng whiche thou thoughtest not that it is a gifte which God hath giuen me bycause it hath so semed to his goodnesse for our benefite that I béeyng illuminated might giue light and gouerne thée Of the which thyng we oughte muche to thāk him bicause he hath only giuē it for a weale and I ought to guide thée in his ways and thou not to striue against my counsels Iust I know certainely my soule that thou sayst truth and I féele that of these thy words is growne in me a certaine suretie a contentation and such a quiet that I am determined neuer hereafter to be contrary to thy will nor rebell agaynst thy counsell and lawes Wherfore I praye thée that thou wouldest tell me what I oughte to doe to maintaine my selfe in thys sweete vnion and chiefly in those operations that depend and rise properly of my selfe Soule I think it shal be very méete bicause I can not well worke if thou be not disposed But bicause it is now broade day and the thing is somwhat long I wyll that wée tarrie tyll to morowe and therefore goe to thy businesse The .vij. Reasoning IVST SOVLE O How the time flées away it is day yet me thinke I went but now to bed This cometh bicause I haue slept wel thinking of nothing Wherfore I helde it out to the vttermoste from my firste sléepe till I awoke therfore haue not knowne the time betwene for I haue heard of a wise man that it was the soule that by musing made y e time wherof it comes that they who be in miserie thinke the days and the nights long bicause they euer thinke of theyr infelicitie and the like haps to him that lokes for some thyng that he desireth bicause he thinks alwayes of it When I was a boy I thought it a thousande yere from one Shrouetide till an other bicause I desired it and now me thinke the one is no sooner gone but the other is come And peraduenture I am as he that hath money inough passeth not what he spende but when he hath but litle left he beginneth to spare thinks vpon it as though he were robbed whē he departeth with any But let euery man say what he wil sone is a yere ten and twenty gone mans life is a short thing in deede so as it is a great foolishnesse of vs that shall so little time tarye here to charge and wrap our selues in so many matters of the worlde whych kepes a man alwayes eyther in no smal feare or in great trouble and the more he hath with the more he must striue But much more foolish be we to fighte with our selues as we do the most part of our time by the reason of our immoderate willes which we norish with appetite Wherfore we liue with cōtinual remorse of reason which doth alwayes molest vs wheras if we did subdue our part sensitiue to the reasonable as becomes we should liue in mery and perpetuall peace firste with our selues and then with little dolor or feare of things which the world and fortune brings as I knowe by experience since that that my soule being illumined of my lord she hath made mine eyes also open whereby being minded from hence forth to liue as shal become a man I féele in me a quiet and contentation as the lyke I haue not felt in my life therfore blessed be thou alwayes O my soule that hast ben the cause therof Soule What doest thou muse Iust that thou art so waking what diddest thou thinke of Iust I thought howe contented a man myght lyue and how much more happy hys life shoulde be if he woulde lyue after reason and not after senses as he doth Wherof it comes that working as a man may say contrary to his nature he lyueth in an vnquyetnesse and in a war with him selfe most great For much greater be the vexatiōs that our inwarde passions worke than the outward Soule What other greater good had our first father Adam before he sinned than this inwarde peace and quiet Iust Oh why haue it not we as well as he Soule Bicause we haue loste thorough his disobedience the gift of that iustice which they call originall which God had giuē him which was nothing but a bridle and a rule that kept the inward partes subdued obedient to the superiour by the which the flesh did not kicke against the spirit nor the sensitiue partes wholy did desire other in man but the preseruation of the singular called indeuided by the benefite of the part reasonable and not for delight as they doe nowe nor did séeke other than the good it selfe the which thing thy Dante no lesse pleasantly than learnedly doth expresse when being brought to the earthly Paradise in the state of innocencie he caused Virgill thus to say Free I am and right is thy pretence And wil not do a fault for pleasure of the sense Iust Well my Soule me thinke I am returned into this state since I began to be reconciled with thée and hauing no more
be he that giuing vs of his grace may mainteyne vs in so quiet and caulme maner of liuing Soule An other reson also cónstraineth vs to liue vertuously and that is that it séemeth that to olde men it is méete to be wyse otherwise they bée despised and so where that age ought to bring them reuerence and honor it is to them dispraise and none séemeth wise vnlesse he be cōpted good though he be not good for the begynnyng of Wisedome is to feare God Iust That is moste true For as there can not a thing be found that is better more profitable to men than a good man so can there not a thing be found that more hurteth him than an vniust man of leude and euil conditions of the which thing a certaine philosopher considering sayde that one man was the woulfe of an other and not the Woulfe Soule We ought also to consider y ◠this age bringeth with it a certen authoritie by the whiche it séemeth conuenient that other men shoulde credite him wherfore we ought to be very gentle in spéeche and to reason always of good to reproue yong mē yet with a certain swéetnesse which may cause in them rather a loue of good an appetite of honour than a feare of paine or a dread of shame which we shal always wel inough do if we wil remember that we were once yong men our selues subiect to those willes that that age bringeth with it Soule Oh in how fewe reigneth of like age such discretion Soule Our talk must also be plesant but ciuilly and honestly fléeing alway to lament those incommodities that olde age bryngeth wyth hym and not to prayse more than nedes the tyme in the which we were yong men for in that age it being pleasaunt of it selfe a man taketh pleasure of euery thyng which seme much better than they do in olde age Iust Many times all olde men falleth into this errour Soule If we dyd otherwyse wée shoulde be eschewed of other and so lacke Companie which is one of the greatest pleasures that this age hath Which thing Tullie knowyng in hys booke of olde age sayth in the person of Cato the elder a will and desire to reason more than I was wont is increased in me Iust These things be very true Soule Yet thys is not inough for we must thinke there is an other life to the which we goe continually for in this we be as pilgrimes that haue no certain Citie and we be in an age that can not long be from death so as we muste studie to gaine some thing for that place where we must alway remaine Iust This is nothyng to my desire euery thing had gone wel if thou haddest not spoken of death Soule Wherfore cometh thys but that eyther thou art yet to muche gyuen to the worlde or that thou hopest not to goe to a better life The which shall not chaunce to thee if thou vnite thy self to me for I that am immortall shal shew thée that this that thou callest life is a shado◠of life yea rather a great and continual death Iust I can not tell I but it is sure a great thing to lose this being Soule Yea if it should be lost but it is not loste but rather woonne eyther a worse or a better and it is in oure power by the meane yet of the grace of God which gyueth to who so euer wil haue it and already hath shewed to vs by his great liberalitie the greatest parte in makyng vs to be borne in christian religion Iust It is true and by this that thou speakest dothe diminish a little the feare of it Soule Let them feare deathe that haue not the light of Faith for to vs Christians since our Sauior died for vs it is become but a slepe ▪ as he said of those dead that he raised that they were not dead but they slepte out of the which slepe we being awaked by his grace shal returne into a more frée being without any perturbation Iust Well go too then and be thou sure I will assuredly beleue thée Soul We then must do as that wise Merchant which going into a certain prouince to gaine and the time of his return to his contrey drawyng nigh doth dispose and order all his things then satisfie either with dedes or wordes all them that he thynketh be in any meane burdened by him that departing with good grace he may be after of euery man thankefully with more honor receiued in his countrey Iust This certainely dothe not displease me Soul We must therfore dispose that the substance whiche we haue in oure handes may come to them that they ought after oure separation that no contention bée for them whiche thou knowest to be great and troublesom but so as we do neuer lack that is necessary so take from them the loue that though we saw some not go wel it should not trouble vs thinking that those should go euil that were theirs and not oures For he that liueth in Riches with feare to lose them continually is poore Thē discoursing with memorie our life passed we shal séeke to satisfy al we haue offēded any way and as the good Mariner whē he draweth nigh the port we wil strike sail of our worldly operatiōs returne to God We wil leaue al study onely y ◠litle that this age wil beare we wil exercise in holy letters of the studie of the which shal grow in vs a liuely faith informed of charitie by whiche we shal loue God aboue al things and our neighbor as ourself with a certen hope of the merites of Christ that as sure of our helth without any perturbation we shall go to death Iust Al these things but one do plese me and that is y ◠calling again w t memory of y ◠life passed for in doing so I know y ◠we shal find to haue offended God so sore and so ofte that it will bring vs feare and not trust in death as thou sayest Soule This might well come vnto vs if Christ had not as he hath borne all our synnes vpon him and had not promised to pardō vs euery tyme that we returne to him and sayd vnto vs that he loueth vs much more than the carnall fathers do their sonnes Iust Wilt not thou that he shoulde be angrie with vs euery time we sin Soule When we sinne No but when we perseuer in sinne and wyll neuer acknowledge him for our God Yea tell me if a Grauer will not bée angrie séeing his pictures if they be not holden vp fal and euer go downe bycause hée made them of a matter which hath that inclination wouldest thou that God should be angrie wyth vs when we sinne whiche knoweth much better that he hathe made vs of this fleshe so much inclined prompte to sinne as we can not but
of them by thys occasion without error they toke that to be a measure for other measuring with it all other motions that be found within these things that be moued the which thing thy Dant dothso maruellously shew in his .xx. chapter of Paradise when he speketh of this sphere The Nature of motion That in the midst doth rest And else vvhere moues Hath heere aboute hir mark addrest And after saith His motion is not by other meane distinct But other all by his that neuer is extinct And hovv the time hath his foundation Thou maist it knovv by this declaration Iust Truly he saith very well But we giue so much loue to this our Dant that I doubt we will make him séeme more faire than he is Soule Doubt not of that Iust. For I tell thée Dant is one of the best writers as I haue heard of many learned men that is in any tong Iust I would not we should prayse him so as we shold be dispraysed as we were once in defending him that dispraysed him Soule What say they whome thou sayest do reproue him Iust That we ought to haue some respect to his good qualities yet y u knowest he was on of y ◠most excelēt in our time Soule Surely he was a man in all other things to be honored but in this not hauing respect to Dant we ought to haue none of him chiefly of vs Florentines y ◠do defend our Citizen one that hath ben a chief light of our countrey causeth the name of Florence to go through the world So thou mayst aunswer them that shall say any more so thée as one did once which defēding him selfe a good while with the staffe of a Partisane in the ende the dogge byting him he turned the point stroke him with y ◠sharp whose Maister saying to him he should haue ben content to strike him with the staffe he aunswered then shold he haue bytten me with his taile But lette vs ouerpasse these and turne to reasoning This sphere not erring called also the fyrst mouable bicause it is the first and principall cause of al other motions turning euery .xxiiij. houres about the earth once maketh the day naturall And this motion as moste regulate is after taken by the measure of other motiōs for of him is made the wéeke and of wéekes monethes and of monethes yeares as you make of farthings groates of groates shillings and of shillings crownes Iust Tell me I haue euer heard it called Day all that time the Sun standeth ouer the earth not .xxiiij. houres as thou sayst Soule Marke that dayes be deuided into natural and artificial and one turning aboute of this Sphere in .xxiiij. houres is called a naturall day in the whych is included day and night Iust This is a thing I neuer heard before and I can not beleue that when a man speaketh of day he shall include night Soule It is as I haue tolde thée and euer whē you speake of dayes in things naturall you vnderstand natural days and in things artificial dayes artificial Tel me when thou askest thy Til man séeing the yeare after thou hast sowen a fielde of thy corne growing how many dayes hath this corne ben a growing and he aunswereth .viij. or .x. doest thou vnderstande by the day onely the day alone or the day and night together Iust The day and the night Soule And when thou askest him in how many dayes he sowed it what vnderstandest thou by the day Iust The day onely Soule Sée then that in things naturall thou takest dayes naturall and in things artificiall dayes alike Iust Surely my soule thou hast made me vnderstand that I neuer did afore Wher hast thou learned so many goodly things Soule Of experience bicause I haue so long ben in thée by the help of knowledge that thy senses haue giuen me Iust Now I knowe how time is the measure of the motions of these things of the world but I would haue thée tel me better what the motions be Soul The motiō local which is that by which things moue from one place to another the motion of alteration by the which one thyng goeth from one qualitie to an other from heate to cold or from youth to age and the motion of quantitie by the which things be made of greater lesse quantitie increasing or diminishing thus to be borne and to die called generation and corruption But these be rather mutations than mouings bicause they be done in an instant and séemes they can not be measured by time Iust How are these mouings measured with the mouing of heauen Soule Doest thou not sée euidently of thy self that one goeth 3. myle in an houre how can he vnlesse his mouing be equall to the .xxiiij. part of the ▪ mouing which the heauen maketh aboute the earth but vnderstand it of equalitie of duration and as much is the one as the other and not of distance length for in them is no comparison and so is measured how much one is made greater or lesse than an other and from the one to the other as from sick to hole frō yong to olde to the which mouings be subiect these things generable and corruptible which euer varie none can be found but y ◠is euer moued of one of these mouings Thou thinkest y u stādest firme yet thou mouest euer in alteration for thou growest cōtinually olde Iust I vnderstand thée well Soule Therefore all worldly things they say be measured of time which is as much to say as subiect to mouing y ◠is measured with the motion of heauē which things hap not to things diuine and immortal for not being neither generable nor corruptyble bicause they be no bodies and by that can not be made lesse or more quantitie nor be chaunged by reason that they be made of no beginning which haue any contrarietie in them as the Elementes of the which al natural things be made can not be measured with time as they Of the mouings that be chaūged from place to place I speake not for this belongeth only to bodies I know thou hast heard preached a thousande times that God and Aungels be not in place but whē it is said they be more here thā there it is vnderstanded bicause they shewe more their operation there than in other place but not as they be compassed of our outward form of an other body the which is proper to be in place as all things be in this world Iust Then if I lament that the time hath made me olde of yong being a bodie why sayst thou I haue not reason Soule Bicause time as time is nothing but in our cogitation And therefore they say that if there were not intellect humaine there shold be no tyme though there were a mouing of heauē euen as thy yarde in thy shop if thou diddest not vse it as a mesure it should not be a yarde but
I cā not tel but this I sée there dieth so many yong y ◠there remaines but a fewe olde Soule Now thou telst a pretie thing must not all die at length Iust Well I will graunt thée that olde age hath not more of these daungerous infirmities than hath any other age but of certaine coughes catarres palseis and other diseases which yong men haue not and olde men be full what sayst thou now Soule I say vnto thée that they rather come of them selues than of age Iust How so Soule If thou considerest well the life of suche as now be or haue bene in that age thou shalt know it of thy selfe for thou shalt finde them men which either not cōsidering their age and how lesse their power is to that they were yong they wil drinke and eate as muche as they were wont or peraduenture more whereby nature for that occasion not being hable to make disgestion genders in them that superfluitie that causeth these accidents or else in their youth haue made so many disorders y t they haue gotten these euyls which shew them selues in age whē they be more weak of nature but an olde man that considereth well his vertue howe muche and what it is and liues orderly thervnto eating and drynkyng onely so much as may restore his strēgth and not oppresse hym would lyue muche more hole than a yong mā And thou knowest I haue many times taughte thée what way to vse in it Iust Then if an olde man wyll be hole he must marke so many things as he shal lose all his cōtentation for so thou hast confessed of thy selfe that this other blame whiche we gyue to this age that it takes away all pleasure is not giuen for naught Soule Let vs procede in order that thou maist se thou hast not yet caught me Doest thou not remember that that I haue said an other time that eating and drinkyng and other thyngs cōming of some lack be no pleasures but as a man hath néede for when he is suffised they be vnpleasant to him Iust If these be no pleasures there be ynow of other that are taken from hir that she may well be blamed and without respect Soule Rather ought she to be praysed most for if thou considerest well she depriues only those that be reprouable in other ages Iust That will not I graunte for a man that can haue no pleasure in the world is as though he wer not Soule True but what vnderstandest thou by pleasure Iust Those delightes whyche the things of the world bring with them Knowest thou not that thou art like one born yesterday yet ther be many yeres since we first met together Soule If thou vnderstandest of those pleasures that eatyng and drinkyng bringeth idlenesse with those vaine wanton thoughts that procede of it Iust Of what thinkst thou I meane of those that we haue by fasting or labor or wasting our selues with study as some fooles doe Soule Thou art much deceiued rather I say vnto thée that nature hath not giuen to men as Archita the Tarentine said if thou remember of his life for I know thou haste red it ofte a greater nor more hurtfull euil than pleasure and delight of the body Iust Thou sayest so perhaps bicause the least parte is thine Soule Rather bicause the truthe is so wherof comes for the moste parte treasons of the Countrey ruines of cities enimities of men other wickednesse murders rauine of richesse and adulteries but of volupt and delight which so muche blinde men with their entisement and alluring that taking from them the vse of reason they he turned into beastes Iust O reason yet it feareth not them as thou doest say Soule There is no suche enimie as pleasure which of good reasō was called of wise mē the bait of al euil For where the senses rule reason hath no place no vertue is foūd in them that be giuen to the pray of their gorge to wine to sléepe those idlenesse of the which groweth among vs a thousand vaine and vnprofitable cares which kepe vs alwaies after with our face to the earthe like the brute beastes which lacke reason Thinkest thou then that age is to be blamed when she defends vs from greater enimies ▪ taking from them that force wherewith they offende Iust If it were as thou sayest but graunt there is one man that hath no plesure is not he in déede as he were not aliue or as a thing wtout sense Soule Yes But she takes not all alwayes from men but only those that be common with other beastes Iust Then what be they y e remain Soule All they that be properlye méete for menne and be permitted is by reson which principally be those delights that be taken of operations which rise in a man of those partes that haua in them diuinenesse Iust Which be those Soule All the speculatiōs and exercises vertuous Iust If I shold always be occupied in like things after thée my seruitude shold be too great thou knowest somtime I would haue some comfort Soule I wil not denie thée it so that thou passe not reasonable termes but I will say vnto thée that delight that is taken in eating and drinking and talking withthy frends is much more acceptable to olde age than to the other ages Iust What is the cause Soule Bicause there is in olde men more moderate appetite they fall not into dronkennesse or any other alteration of the minde as yong men do which haue their willes disordinate if they haue not in their youth made thē selues worse Further they know to reason of more things and better by the meane of time and experience and better enioye the conuersation of men with much more swéetenesse imbrace the presence of them than yong men do For of their péeres they be honoured and of their lesse they be reuerenced Whiche thyng bryngs them no small delight Iust If they haue séene many things they remember few bicause memory in that age diminisheth much Soule Yea in them that exercise it not which is a vice of maner not of age as in many of them to be suspicious to be couetous tedious prayser of time past estemer of himself more than other and other like wants but when she loseth any of hir strength there increaseth so much for it in wit and iudgement that they supply fully for hir the fruits which bring much more pleasure to olde men than doth armure horsses huntings daunces and such other that delites yōg men Of the pleasures of Venus I will not reason séeing ther is nothing causeth more errors in mā than it But these things that I speake Iust come not to all olde men but to them only that haue so liued in other ages that their reputation and yeres haue encreased in them a like Iust Which be they tell me Soule The greater parte that thou sholdest not think they wer as white crowes for who so euer liueth
whom beliâ—â—e doth appertaine and not I. Soule It is true that I ought to beleue neuer the lesse the principall cause that maketh that I doe not is thy selfe Iust Oh how so sée how thou woldest cast the blame vpon an other Soule Thou knowest howe I can haue no knowledge whiles I am vnited with thée but by the meanes of thy senses the which knowing nothing but sensible thyngs doe force me thorow the great vnion that is betwene thée and me to goe by that path which thou shewest me that is by the things of the world Iust These he but wordes for thou art one thy selfe and as thou sayst the principal why then dâ—st thou not make me folow thée and not thou follow me if I goe a wrong way Soule I am bound within thée and so cloâ—ged of thy earthly nature that I lose the greater parte of 〈◊〉 strength and â—a 〈…〉 lifte vp my selfe to heauen as the perfection of my nature doth require Besides this the reasons with the which I shoulde make thée assured of the light of faith haue not so great forcâ— â–ª as haue the knowledge of sense which thou â—euest me But beleue me Iust that death doth not greue hym that deleueth Iust This might as well be of him that bâ—leueth not forâ—â— might thynke that when he dieth as his pleasures shall 〈◊〉 so shal his paynes ende also of the which I thinke there is no lesse number in the worlde than of the pleasures as thou didst say Soule And who is he that thinketh there is nothing in the other world Iust Oh oh there is happâ—ly one or two I would I had so many 〈…〉 ducates as I haue known do know Soule Oh it had ben aswell said so many vertues hadde I but I sée Iust that thou 〈◊〉 an earthly piece and crauest nothing but earthly things Iust Oh if there were nobody else howe many Popes haue there bene â–ª Soule What Popes how like a 〈◊〉 speakest thou Iust I speake of them thaâ— haâ—â— interpreted the booke of Lazarus so wyâ—kedly as they haue sayd that in the other worlde is nothing Soule What booke of Lazarus speakest thou of â–ª Iust Oh as though y â— knewst it not Soule No not I. Iust Well thou shalt know it now They say y t Lazarus being asked after his rising of many of his friends what was in the other world he aunswered he wold leaue it in writing Now eyther that he forgot it or that it is not lawfull to speake of things of the other world of one y â— had ben ther as S. Paule saide when he died lefte a booke sealed with order it should be giuen to the Pope in the which nothing was written wherfore the Pope that no slauÌ„der shold be giueÌ„ to the world which with great desire did loke to hear what was ther did hide it saying he might not open it to any but to his successor so the Bishops haue done from one to an other till this day Now they that haue expounded the matter godly affirming the cause to be that it is not lawful for men to know the things there farther theÌ„ hath ben declared to vs by the scripture be they y â— haue ben good men the other that haue thus interpreted y â— mater that the meaning is that in the other world is nothing be they whom thou hast séene which when they haue come to their Papacie haue done that they thought might serue their turne Soule A Iust these be tales deuised of such as thou art but I wil say this vnto thée that if thou considerest well thou neuer foundst any that can beleue this that there is nothing absolutely and without al respect for they should haue to much contentacion and pleasure in this world they might fulfil all theyr desires without any trouble of â—â—nde which were no small thinge and they might also say as that honest woman which being taken in the sacke of Genoua saide God be thanked that I shal once haue my luste without any remorse of conscience Iust I thinke thou sayest truth for I haue hearde there was once one in Florence that was called M. Iohn de Caui a Phisitian Philosopher most famous the which whilest he liued shewed him selfe alwayes to be reâ—olued that the Soule was mortall neuerthelesse when he was a dying he saide by and by I shall be out of a great force And diuers other whoÌ„ I haue knowne to be of that opinion in their life haue ben otherwise at their death Wherof one Naum Grosso and Lance Goldesmith liuing pleasantly and beleuing in apparaunce not muche aboue the house top yet at their deathe the one called for a crucifixe but woulde haue it giuen him by the hand of Donatello that was dead The other sayd I recommend my self to him in the other worlde that can do moste be it God or the deuil and he that most may let him most catche Soule Let these things go for they haue more of brutishnesse than of reason and if thou remeÌ„brest thou shalt finde that in thy time there haue ben halfe a score more whom thou hast knowne to haue beÌ„ in their life scarce religious haue séemed to beleue too litle and yet haue liued morally and as behoueth to reasonable creatures which at the point of death not beyng able neuer to quench a certaine prick of reason and a certain desire and acknowledgyng of Immortalitie although it were confused and iudging it naturall and knowyng that naturall desires be not vain nor of things that can not be hadde they haue bene reduced to God and haue confessed their erroure and so recommended them selues to God as he hath giuen them the lyghte of Fayth whereby they haue dyed Christian men But lette vs leaue thys reasonyng and goe lyghte thy candle bycause it shal be tyme by and by that thou go to thy worke Iust Thou haste a thousande reasons and I stayde to reason wyth thée What ayleth thys tynder that it wyll not take nowe thankes bée to GOD it is lyght Oh oh good Lorde What a goodly thyng what a goodly Creature Oh my Soule blessed bée thou for thou art a faire thyng Soule Sitte sytte Iust least thou fall for thou art olde Iust I can not holde my selfe but I muste néedes embrace thée wyllyng thée so well and neuer hauyng seene thee before But alas what is the matter I féele nothyng yet I sée thée Am I not well in my wyttes Soule Iust thou makest profession of a Dautist and thou doest not remember it when thou shouldest Doest not thou remember that the lyke also happened vnto Daut hymselfe when that he woulde haue embraced Casella And the cause is this that we be as shadowes and do only shewe oure selues to the sighte but wée can not bée proprely touched bycause that we be withoute bodyes And this body which I haue made me being of the aire is also vntouchable