on this place saith that by the branches are vnderstoode the carcasses of his hoast which the veasts of the field did deuour Lauaterus the Minister of Tigurin agreeth with him All the beasts of the field shall dwell vpon his ruine the kings carkas shall not be laide vp into the sepulcher of his elders but shall be a pray to crowes griphins and other carniâ—orous birdes So doth Pellican a learned Linguist interpret this place at the laste there is ane auersion or Apostrophe to Pharao himselfe or to the Assyrian King To whom art thou liâ—ened O thou noble and high among the trees of pleasure thou hast passed all other in power and yet with other kings that were in thy company they were brought to the lowest parts of the earth that is to hell among the abhominable heathen shalt thou sleepe and lye as a wretched and miserable man Now because you tak holde of the word sleepe you must remember that these words ar spoken ironically as it is noted in the contents of Esay 14. The derision of the king of Babilon Moreouer Lauaterus on this place of Ezech. saith These things may be better vnderstood out of the 14. of Es which prophecying of the destructioÌ„ of y â— king of Babilon Baltassar describeth with what bitter scoffs he is entertained in hell To end Lauaterus on this place proueth these four things first that there is ane hell secondly that hel in this chapter is called by three names that is 1. SHEOL 2. ERETS TACHTITH 3. BOR Hell the lowest parts of the earth and a pit thirdlie that this Hel is beneath vs and lastlie that the tyrants and wicked of the world do discend into it and this he proueth out of Numb 16. 33. Psal 55. 15. And addeth also that Tertullian and Ierome doo proue hel to be beneath in the earth The conclusion then is thus for as much then as the Assyrians dyed with the sword and were deuoured of the beasts and birds of the fielâ— I pray tell mee how that can bee true that you affirme that the lowest partes of the earth doth signifye the graue for howe were they in the graue y â— were neuer buried therfore they were in hel as both Esay and Ezechiel doo affirme and as Pellican Munster Lauater three notable lerned men in the holy tong doe interpret it I thinke your owne friends when they reade this will confesse you either to bee ignorant of the word of God or els to wrest it contrary to the meaning of the holy ghost Moreouer where you mislike with me because I said that ERETS TACHTITH that is the lowermost partes of the earth doth signifye hell generally in the Hebrew toong and you bring an instance out of the 139. Psal and 14. verse where you proue that the lower parts of the earth doth signifie the mothers womb therefore it doth not signifie hell alwaies this is a childish reason In a metaphorical signification it signifieth the mothers womb therefore in his proper signification it can not signifie hell Argumentum a metaphora ductum non valet an argument drawen from a metaphore is of no force And that heere is a metaphor M. Caluin shall be the iudge He compareth saith Caluin the mothers wombe to the lowest and inward dens of the earth and a little after for no doubt Dauid would expres metaphoricaly that inestimable cunning which appereth in the figure of mans body The mothers womb is compared to hel for the darknes of it for as Caluin saith that artificer which maketh a cunning peece of worke in a darke place is more to be commended then hee which doth the like in the light Dauid also is heere saide to bee made in the nethermost parts of the earth 336 because he was by nature the child of wrath and of hell if he had not bin deliuered therehence by Iesus Christ Breefely where you say that he descended in to the Virgins wombe and that it is the true meaning of the place Eph. 4. 9. both you and your M. Beza are deceaued For Paul reproueth you Ep 4. 10. He that descended is even the same that ascended Now the body and soul of Christ ascended into heauen therefore the body and soule of Christ descended into the virgins wombe if the body did descend into the virgins womb then Christ took not flesh of the virgin Thus that you may contradiâ—t me you are not affraid ignorantly or wittinglye to deny the incarnation of our Sauiour Theophilact saith well of these words when you read that the Sonne of man came down from heauen you may not think that his flesh came down froÌ„ heauen for this is y â— opinion of Heretiques which did teach that Christ brought his body from heauen and did passe through the virgin I hope you holde not this opinion but if you hold this interpretation you must needs fall into it For he that descended is euen the same that ascended Eph. 4. 10. Violence in this section done to the text by the Doctor First that the whole 24. chap. of Eccles speaketh of the Sonne of God and of his wonderfull workes in saving mankinde of the which this was one that he was not onelie aliue amongst the living but after death his bodie was amongest the dead bodies and his soule amongst the soules in Hell c. That Esay in 14. 9. and Ezech. in the 15. verse of his 31. cap. calleth that Hel plainelie which Ezech. in the 18. verse of the same chapter calleth the lowermost partes of the earth That in the 31. 18. vers of Ezech. Thou shalt bee cast downe in the lowermost parts of the earth and sleepe in the middest of the vncircumcised the word sleepe is taken ironicallie That in Eph. 4. it is ment that Christ descended in soule and body as he ascended in soule and body A new rule in Logick that argumentum a Metaphora sumptum non valet HVME his reioynder to the 9. sect FIrst marke that by a general axiome whatsoeuer a man alledgeth to proue a thing either doutfull or vnknowne the same must be better knowne and inforce such a necessitie of consequence as cannot be denied The thing that you haue heere in hand to proue is that the lowermost parts of the earth is as proper and peculiar a name for the place of the damned as Hell is in English To proue this your testimonies should be without controulment But are in deede so farre short of that marke that they are if not harder altogether as hard and obscure as the place that they are alleadged to illustrate The first of them I haue dispatched in the former section The next is out of the 24. of Eccles a booke not Canonicall nor written in the tongue whereon wee stand In which respect I might haue rejected it But becaus one answere serued it and your
third place out of 31. 18. of Ezech. I joined them together The firste was I will pearce through the lowermost parts of the earth and looke on them that hee a sleepe The second Thou shalt be cast downe into the lowermost parts of the earth and sleep in the middest of the vncircumcised To them thus I aunswered There is sleep that is rest and quietnesse in the place called heere the lower-moste partes of the earth But there is no rest nor quietnesse in Hell the place of the damned Ergo the place called heer the lowermost parts of the earth is not Hell the place of the damned For the first of your places you say nothing to this argument For the second you say that the word sleepe is vsed Ironicallie that is in a scornfull and mocking manner and a contrarie sense For proof for want of text you take vp the conteÌ„ts of the 14. of Esay and Lauater who saith that Baltasar was receaued amongest the deade for so is the true sense with bitter scoffes First consider that the figure in the 14. of Esay is a sarcasmus not an Ironia consisting of bitter words vsed in their vsual significations Secondlie that your authors are but meÌ„ Thirdlie that they say nothing of the word sleepe which Ezech. vseth Lastlie that you haue sleep manie hundreth times attributed in the Scriptures to the dead but neuer to the state of the damned neither in jeast nor earnest Whereupon thus I reason We must not wring words out of jointe by an Ironia except some necessarie inducement in the text or absurditie in the letter lead vs thereto But heere is neither inducement in the text nor absurditie in the letter Ergo heere we must not wring this worde out of jointe in this text and take it from the vsuall significations in other places of the Scripture This argument is so strong and prevailed so much with other writers that you cannot finde one to take your part in this mocke If you could we should haue his name with the highest stiles of antiquitie learning and aestimation that anie shewe coulde yeelde him Whereas you can with no colour hyde this blot in the 24. of Eccles there you run another course perswading mee that if I had read that that goeth before and commeth after I would haue beene of another minde And affirming that the whole chapter speaketh of the Sonne of God and his wonderfull workes in saving c. You are somewhat deceaued of mee For I haue read the whole chapter and more then that haue considered the matter in it The whole Chapter seemeth to mee a Prosopopoia of the Wisdome which God in his worde and the light of nature hath left vnto man praising her selfe in the coâ—gregation That the authour speaketh onelie of that Wisdome except you will make him leaue his ground and wander from his subject it is plaine by the 11. and 12. verses where she saith of her self that he that made and created her appointed her an habitation in Sion Which cannot bee vnderstood of the aeternall Wisdome of God which was neither made nor created but begotten Whereas shee saith in the sixt verse that she causeth the light that faileth not to rise in the heauens and covered the earth as a cloude If you take light for the knowledge of god the heauens for his church and the earth for the reprobate as they are in diuerse places of the Scriptures there is nothing in al this chapter dis-agreing with this subject That shee proceedeth from the mouth of the most highest that she is the firstâ— borne of all creatures that she was created from the beginning and made before the worlde and that she shall neuer faile may be well vnderstood of the worde of God which came from his own mouth and shall not perish one jot of it though heauen and earth doeth passe As for the 8. verse which you say woulde haue changed my minde that she alone hath gone about the compasse of the heavens and walked in the bottome of the depth I should sooner take it for naturall wisedome proceeding also from God which taking viewe of all his creatures from the highest heauens to the lowest center of the earth doeth after a sort walke about them and vnder them then for the aeternall wisedom of God with whom diuerse things in this chapter will in no wise agree Thus I see that there is no thing in this chap. to perswade mee that the wisdome heere spoken of is the Sonne of God But suppose there were yet heere is nothing to help your cause You know that the generall question betweene you and mee is not of the sonne of God but of the sonne of man that is of Christes humanitie whether it did descend into the locall Hel. Of him I will stand to it to your face that there is not one sillable in all this chapter neither of his bodie nor of his soule neither amongst the living nor amongest the dead in the graue nor in Hell Wherfore howsoeuer I haue read this chap. you haue read it more then well that haue found matter in it that no man but you euer saw in it The particular question in this part of the section is whether the lower-moste parts of the earth in the 37. verse of this Chap. doth signifie the Hel of the damned to which this allegation and the other out of Iob is so impertinent that I wonder you could hope that they woulde holde way For what maketh it to this question that the wisdome of God doth compasse the heauens and walke in the bottome of the depth that it entreth into the bottome of the sea or hath seene the gates of death You are neere be-stead that are driven so farre for reasons Thus much though it be Apocryphall for the place of Ecclesiastes As for the other place of Ezechiell before you came to the answere which I haue set downe before for orders sake you endevoured to proue by Esay and Ezech that it maketh for you after your owne manner which is rather to trouble your aduersarie with newe reasons then to answere them that are in hand For your proof you quote the 14. 9. of Esay and the 15. and 16. verses of the same chapter of Ezechiell Where you say both the Prophetes call the place into the which these Kings are caste most plainelie Hel. And wondering at me that I dare interprete it graue you note in your margent Hume disagreeth with Esay Ezech Munster Lavater and Pelilcan But heere M. D. I pray you let mee aske a question In what language wrote those Prophetes Was the verie word they vsed hell If not that as I think you will graÌ„t but the hebrew word SHEOL which doth signifie the graue rather then Hell why may I not take the one signification as well as you the other Thus with your bolde daring you dare the simple as men doe larkes But
weake and gouernment to them that either cannot or will not keepe order But Christes soule after this praier was neither distressed guiltie weake nor disorderlie Ergo he commended not his soule into Gods consolation mercie protection and gouernement This is all that in all this section you haue spoken to the purpose You haue I must needs confesse a great deale of other stuffe as much as all this In one place you ignorantly charge vs that we giue Christ not a personall but a potentiall discending into Hel. For we say that Christ descended personallie into Hell both bodie and soule and suffered actuallie all the torments thereof for our redemption Otherwise were he but a potentiall Saviour and all wee actuallie condemned You quote also heere out of place and to small purpose the 10. and 11. verses of the 4. to the Ephes which might haue bene deferred more convenientlie to the 8. 9. and 10. section where it is handled of purpose Out of it you gather first an absurditie That if the same Christ did ascend and descended hee descended in soule and bodie or else he could not haue beene the same Did you neuer heare that the same Christ was from all aeternitie that the same Christ was slaine from the beginning of the worlde that the same Christ lay three dayes in the graue as Ionas was three dayes and three nights in the whales bellie And yet I trust you will not say that his soule and bodie was from all aeternitie that his soule and body was slain from the beginning sure I am that you that stand so much that the soule can not bee buried will not say that hee lay three dayes soule and bodie in the graue Your wonderfull manner in which you say these things were effected is a wonderfull Sophisme You seeme to thinke that there were no wonder in Christes descending except this place be vnderstood of his descending into hell as if it were not as great a wonder that the sonne of God descended into the wombe of a Virgine and there did cloath himself in mans nature But all this wonderfull discourse of woÌ„ders is beside the text After all these by-blowes you gather vpon this text a reason against the main conclusion That Christs soule was not in heauen while his bodie laie in the graue because then hee should haue ascended before he descended contrarie to the place of the Eph. There be two errours in the levelling of this peece that beares it quite beside the marke First you giue the name of ascending to the soule without the bodie contrarie to the Scriptures Act. 2. 34. Dauid is not yet ascended And this taketh away your next reason of two ascensions Secondlie you giue the name of descending to the descending of his humanitie into hell which is spoken by the Apostle of the Descending of his Deitie in his humane state Thus a man may see your wit howe cleanelie and closelie you can lap two fallacies into one proposition HVME sect 6. FOr the other place you bring a reddier sense out of Augustine of that which is God not of that which is man his sense how readie soeuer it pleaseth him to teaâ—me it can no wise stande with these wordes of our Saviour For this day shalt thou be with me in Paradice doth sound in all latine eares I mean to all that vnderstand the latine tongue as if hee had said This day thou and I shall be in Paradice which no man that hath one drop of braine in his head dare aduisedlie attribute to the Deitie which being there from all aeternitie could not go thither in the future time But mee thinkes I heare you say that the future verbe is giuen to the theefe onlie and with me which agreeth to the speaker is limited with no bounds of tyme. Against this I haue the consent of the best Grammarians and the theefe also For Remember mee said he when thou commest in thy kingdome By whose verdict it is cleare that he was not yet in his kingdome to whome he made this supplication Neither do I thinke that Christ himselfe did mislike with his judgement For if hee had erred of ignorance no doubt hee would haue set him right But he was so far from correcting him he rather confirmed him answering in the same tense or time Thou shalt be with me c. Moreouer the Pronoun me is referred to the person that spake which I hope you wil not say was Christ God alone but Christ both God and man Thus you see that these two places are too strong for your ordinance If you haue no better shot then these we will spred our banners with magna est iuvicta veritas HILL his reply HEre you condemne S. Augustins answer Well because S. Augustine is dead and in your margine you say that it is M. Hills answere by Gods grace and his worde M. Hill will defend it First I note a falsification of the text by you alleadged for where as it is in the text Luke 23. 42. Remember mee Lord when thou commest into thy kingdome You for Lord say Maister I tolde you in the begining Eue did change the words of the Scripture to her ouerthrowe Therefore I pray you leaue it for otherwise I must tell you of it if a boy in the Grammer schoole construe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Maister hee is worthie to be beaten and if a schoolemaister teach so he is worthy to be controlled for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 writen by Stephanus with a capital letter wil cashire your banner of boasting bring your glorie to shame I preached in my sermon at Chippenham that to day did signifie for euer and with me did signifie the Godhead I will not only affirme it but confirme it that to day doth signifie for euer in this place first I proue it by this philosophicall reason out of Aristotle which saith In aeternis non est tempus In eternall things there is no time For time is the measure of motion therfore if there be time then is there motion Now as in Hell all men do suffer torments and in earth all labour So in Heauen all doe rest Apoc. 14. 13. Blessed are the dead that dye in the Lord so saith the spirit for they rest from their labours Therfore where there is no mutation from day to night nor from summer to winter there is no day naturall or artificiall as you suppose And this is proued Apoc. 10 6. And the Angell sware by him that liueth for euermore which created heauen and the things that are therein that time shall be no more And this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to day is vsed for euer in many Scriptures Psal 2. 7. Thou art my Son this day haue I begotten thee Act. 13. 33. we declare vnto you touching the promises made vnto the Fathers god hath
your self or half so indifferent as men do wish that wish you well you might haue seen that the graue is vsed by a Metonymi◠for all the dead whether layd vp in the bowels of the earth or floting in the sea or devoured of rauenous beasts For the Hebrue SHEOL doth not so much signifie the graue which for want an other word we are forced to set for it by a Metonymia as that which the greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth better expresse by the privation of light or life separating all the dead which in Latine be called inferi and manes from the living which they call superstites And not comprysing onelie them which are buried in a graue as you do ignorantly suppose heere nor the damned as you do as wiselie hold in another place Thus the very heathens did vse this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Homer that is hee sent manie worthie soules not to the hell of tormentes that had beene a bad rewarde for their worthinesse but to the dead or to the graue So is the same word vsed by Nonnus a Christian Poet of great antiquitie in his Paraphrase vpon Iohn cap 11. speaking of Lazarus who you will not saye I hope was in Hell 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is and hearing amongst them that were dead rotten the fugitiue corps returned again out of hel The same authour in the same place vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same signification whence the Latines haue borrowed their Barathrum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is who raised vp the dead Lazarus skipping out of the smokie gulfe and returning from the dead So the Latines vsed their Orcus and Tartarus not deuiding the damned and the saued but the dead and the living by the privation and habit of light and seeing Wher you aske mee why Dauid should speake of their temporall death which is common to all I tolde you if you will be tolde it to solace himself by the rememberance of their malice that it was not euerlasting but should cease with their short liues You conclude this section with a new syllogisme with protestation to good M. Hum◠so you call him to answere it plainelie The lower partes of the earth signifie not the graue but hell Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth Ergo Christ discended into Hell Now M. Hume to deserue your good name first denies the maior secondlie he replyes to the minor that in his judgement the lowermost partes of the earth that Christ descended into may wel be taken for the base and meane estate that the sonne of God discended into vpon the earth The sonne of a Carpentar borne in a stable cradled in a cratch and living in a base estate without a hole to hide his head in was even the lowest and basest partes of the earth Hee could not well goe lower Thus Hume bids you goe your way and take this for an answere HVME Sect. 9. YOur other places be I wil pearce through all the lowermost partes of the earth and looke on them that bee a sleepe Eccles 24. And they shall be cast downe into the lowermost parts of the earth and sleep in the middest of the vncircumcised Ezech. 31. 18. which two places by your leaue cannot be well meant of Hel. Except that you can perswade vs that there is sleepe that is rest and quietnes in Hell but of the graue and state of the dead whereof wee haue as commonlie almoste as stones in the streete he did sleepe with his Fathers The same wordes ERETS TACHTITH which you say doth signifie properlie Hell be so vsed by the Prophet David Psal 139. 14. That they can no wise bee taken in that signification except it can be proued that Dauid was fashioned and made in Hell His wordes bee these My bones are not hid from thee though I was made in a secrete place and fashioned beneath in the earth Here Beza doeth well obserue that the place of the Apostle which you alledge may fitlie bee applied to the sense of this place and note vnto vs the discense of Christ into the wombe of the Virgine HIL his Reply FIrst you say the place quoted by me Syrac 24. 37 maketh not for the proofe of my assertion If you had considered what went before and what followeth you wold haue bin of another mind For before in the 8. verse is saide I alone haue gon round about al the compas of heauen and haue walked in the bottome of the depth Which depth Pellicanus alearned writer doth interpret abyssum mortis inferorum the depth of death and hel Yea the whole Chapter speaketh of the Sonne of God and of his wondrous workes in sauing mankinde of the which this is on that he was not only aliue among the liuing but after death his bodye was among the dead bodyes and his soule among the soules in hell which hee calleth the lower parts The like scripture to this is in Iob. 38. 16 17. Hast thou entered into the bottom of the sea or hast thou walked to seeke out the depth haue the gates of death bin opened vnto thee or hast thou seene the gates of the shadowe of death These words are thus opened by Martin Borrhauius in his learned Commentaries vpon Iob. I haue dwelled in the highest places and my throne is in the pillar of the cloudes I haue gone rounde about the compasse of heauen aboue and haue wallted in the flouds of y ◠sea I pearce through all the lower parts of the earth Haue those in hell or the dead bin searched out of thee dost thou knowe their estate and condicion and what shall happen to their bodyes hereafter and what doth happen to their soules now The force of death and of hell hee maketh maniefest by the names of gates as it is manifest in that scripture and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against thee By these words it is euident that the nethermoste partes of the earth Syrac 24 37. and Zalmaueth the Hebrue word Iob. 38 17. doo signifie hell and that none but the Sonne of God aboue hath personaly shewed himself in all these places For the place in Ezechiel that it maketh most significantly for my purpose I wil proue it by Esay Ezech and diuers other both learned modest writers Esay 14 9. handling the same matter saith Hel beneth is moued for thee to meet thee at thy comming And Ezechiel in the 15. and 16. verses calleth it hell plainly Sith then both the prophets call it hell how dare you to interpret the graue that the nethermost parts of the earth do signifie hell I prooue it out of the 12. ver of Ezechiel And the strangers haue destroyed him euen the terrible nations and they haue left him vp on the montaines and in all the vallies his branches are broken Munster
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is spirits also is not as you take it for you say it signifieth the men in Noahs time but you can not bring one scripture to proue it Therfore I say as I said before it signifieth soules seperated from the body That my exposition is true I haue prooued by three Scriptures Ecles 12. 7. Heb. 12. 23 Act. 7 59. Now as mine is true so will I proue yours to be false impossible by Christs owne words Luke 24 59. where our Sauiour to proue himselfe to bee noe ghoste but to haue a true body after his resurrection thus reasoneth Behold my hands my feet that I am the same handle me for a spirit hath no flesh and bones as yee see me haue This was Christs argument I haue a body therefore I am not a spirit and so I reason against you and your teachers The men in Noahs time had bodies ergo they could not be called spirits Euery boy can tel you in Oxford that substantia is deuided into corpus and spiritum and that one of these opposite species can not be affirmed of another And therfore to be short when you can proue out of the new Testament that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is iournying is spoken figuratiuely of the deity or Pneuma that is spirit signifieth a man y â— hath a body I will giue you the goale but if you will runne on this course vntill you haue proued these 2. points which you must doo if you will haue me to recant then take heede least you run your selfe out of breath Lastly the word Phylake that is prison doth signify hel as it is to be sene Apoc. 20. 7. When a thousand yeeres shall be fulfilled Satan shall be losed out of his prison Thus thou seest good reader how I haue proued my interpretatioÌ„ out of the word of God for euery word which our aduersaries can not doo for their interpretation therfore thou maist safely assure thy self ours to be good and theirs to be false And that this word prison doth signify hell you may see Epiphanius Athanasius Fulgentins centuria 1. lib. 2. cap. 14. Peter Martyr on the Crede Nowell in his Catechisme Beacon in the sick mans salue Crowlev in his answer to the reasons of Pound the Papist All these old and new writers haue alleadged this Scripture as I haue done with good warrant and conscience Now that I haue proued this my owne interpretation I will by Gods grace proue your answere to be friuolous First you confesse that killed and quickned are Participles of one tense and yet you say they are not referred to Christ at one time this is meerlye false as I thus proue Christ was after his passion dead aliue or neuer if he were neuer dead and aliue at one time then Peter saith not truly if he were dead and aliue at on time then you speak falsely Now you your selfe confessed that he was dead and aliue at on time alittle before and proued it out of the 2. Cor. 13. 4. He was crucified concerning his infirmity yet liueth hee by the power of God Heere by your own woords Christ was aliue when he was crucified so may I say w t Pet. he was aliue when he was dead at one time Then you say the flesh signifieth the manhode and spirite the deitye this also is vntrue for the body may be killed but the soule can not Again shew me any Scripture where on and the sam word in on sentence and period is taken for diuers things for in this sentence In which spirite hee went and preached to the spirits that ar in prison Heer the word spirit in the beginning of the sentence signifieth the deity in the latter end the same woord signifieth the men that liued in Noahs time by your interpretation but by my interpretation it signifieth the soule seperate from the body in both places For as Cirill saith as Christ was with the liuing in body and soule so to shew himselfe a true man his body was among the dead bodies and his soule among the soules Then you auouch the preching of Noah is attributed to the whole Trinity be it so but can you proue that Christ after he was killed did prech in Noah for this preaching was after Chriâ—â—s death which is mentioned in the 18. verse and before his resurrection which is spoken of in the 21. verse You goe forward and tell mee that pote doth not determine the Participle apeithesasi that is disobedient but ekeryxen that is preached I must tell you plaine you speak neither like a Deuine nor a Gramarian For an Aduerb is some time put to a Participle as Math. 2. 7. Tote erodes lathra kalesas tous magous Then Herod calling priuilye the wise men Sometime to a Noune as homo egregie impudens Somtime to an Aduerb as parum honeste se gerit Therfore the Aduerb pote comming after apeithesasi next immediatly and being distinguished from ekeryxen by a Comma cannot by any example in diuinitye or by any rule of Grammer be coupled with the verb ekeryxen Now to answer your infallible reasons First your reason against me that if my construction bee true then nothing did happen to Christ which might not be verified of any man And did you not blush wheÌ„ you wrote these things Can any mans soule goe to hell and returne againe For his going downe to hell I proue in the 19. verse and his returning from hell in the 21. verse Secondly you say the word spirit doth signifie that which gaue life what then as God giueth life to the body effectually so the soule giueth life to the body formally Your Geueua translation which you follow saith hee was quickned in the spirite not of the spirit And this I note against your side en in the 18. verse you translate In But in the next verse as though you had not done well in the former you translate it by Now you know the preposition dia signifieth by and not en as it appereth in the 21. verse and in many places mo dia anastaseos that is by the resurrection Moreouer if you had said quickned of the spirite then had you made a probable answer but no diuine is able to proue this exposition that Christ was quickned in the spirit that is in the deity for the deity is life it selfe Your third pregnant reason is that thanatotheis signifieth not only the death of the body but also the whole passion of Christ This can not be for the suffrings of Christ are set downe before in the same verse then in this word thanatotheis is shewed the maner of the death that Christ suffered that is hee was killed and
that spoake breake Now heere beholding the maior and the minor two brasen vnbreakable walles you set all your teeth on the poore conclusion to pull it from them To take this place of this Psalme quite from vs you alledge the holie Ghost and Peter two sufficient witnesses because they referre this place to the resurrection and we to the passion Allace good Doctor vbiacumen tuum Doe not you see man that though the negatiue Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell pertaineth to the resurrection yet the affirmatiue that his soule was in hell may pertaine to his passion Peter alledgeth the negatiue in the Psal to proue his resurrection and our question is not whether hee rose againe or not but whether the thing wherein he was is to bee taken for the place or the panges of hell And heere I muste needes confesse that this consideration hath driuen mee quite from Calvine whome in this place I first followed As for the place of the beleefe I am perswaded that his sense is moste agreable beeing godlie consonant to the Scriptures necessarie for the perfection of the creede not repugnant to the circumstances thereof and moste comfortable to a Christian conscience But in this place of this Psal now I see that Olevians opinion is truer more consonant to the rest of the text and more plaine against your drousie dreame Wherfore now I am perswaded that SHEOL is heer set for the state of the dead and my soule for mee as it is Psal 3. 2. Manie say to my soule that is to mee And Psal 7. 2. Least hee devoure my sonle lyke a Lyon that is mee And Psal 6. 3. My soule is sore troubled that is I am sore troubled So the sense must bee Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell that is mee amongest the deade That this must needes bee the true sense heereof I haue two reasons First that this was the SHEOL wherein Christes soule was not left whence hee rose againe as may appeare by this allegation of Peter But hee rose again from the graue and condition of the deade not from hell and condition of the damned Ergo the SHEOL wherein Christs soule was not left is the condition of the dead and not the place of the damned The answere here that he rose in soule and body the one from hell and the other from the graue will not holde for the name of resurrection belongeth onelie to the bodie because nothing ryseth againe but that which death laide downe So hath our beleefe the resurrection of the bodie not the resurrection of the soule This was M. Fieldes argument which did choake you in the act at Oxonford and hang so fast in your teeth that hee coulde not get it out of your mouth much lesse an answere to it The other is builded vpon the wordes of Peter Act. 2. 19. Men and brethren I may boldlie speake to you of the patriarch Dauid that hee is dead and buried and his sepulchre is amongest vs to this day In which wordes expounding this place of the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption hee laboureth to proue that Dauid spake not this of himselfe but of the Messias that was to come of his loines His reason is because Dauid is deade and buried and his sepulchre remained amongest them as if he had said because Dauids soule was left in Hell and saw corruption For where the negatiue is not true there the affirmatiue muste bee true by the rule of contradiction Wherevpon thus I reason Dauids soule that is Dauid himself as I haue said before was left in the SHEOL wherin Christs soule should not be left But Dauids soule was left in the state and condition of death Ergo it was the state and condition of death wherein Christes soule was not left by this place The same argument may bee formed negatiuelie to take away your exposition of this place Dauids soule was left in the SHEOL wherof it is said in the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption But Dauids soule was not left in the place of the damned Ergo it is not the place of the damned whereof it is said in the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption Wheras some alledge against this interpretation that it doeth violate the text taking the soule first for the whole man the whole againe for the bodie Let them consider that the condition of the dead expressed heere in the name of SHEOL pertaineth not to the body only but to the whole man Neither were it injurie to the text if it be so taken For the cup is set for wine and wine for the blood of Christ by Paull himself who vseth not to violate wordes These reasons therefore haue led mee from Calvine whome though I reuerence as he is well worthie as much as anie man yet I am not so maried to him howsoeuer M. Doct. is perswaded otherwise to folloâ—e him the bredth of a haire beyond truth and reason Hee may bee deceaued aswell as others though he hath plunged through manie deepes that haue devoured manie Nowe to returne againe and to followe vpon your walke you charge mee heere as euerie where with an vntruth To fasten it vpon mee you turne my wordes out of their figured coate into their bare skinne For whereas I say that Christ suffered the whole tormentes of hell vpon the crosse taking the drosse by a Synecdoche for the whole passion as he did before mee which said God forbid that I delight in any thing but in the crosse of Christ The preaching of the crosse is to manie foolishnes Christ reconciled vs to God by his Crosse You tell mee that it is most vntrue because he did not suffer his whole torments on the wodden Crosse which Symon the Cyrenian did beare on his backe And to make my wordes more odious you do them more injurie For whereas I say hee suffered the whole tormentes of Hell on the Crosse a thing defend-able you charge mee as saying he suffered all his torments vpon the Crosse meaning the Crosse of wood a thing without shewe of truth In the ende to fasten another little faulte on me it is but blasphemie you wring my last wordes in the fame presse For whereas I say that a word of double signification standeth at the courtesie of the reader to be taken as shall seeme most probable meaning that there is nothing in the word it self to lead the mynde to one signification more then another but depends vpon the probable circumstances and drift of the text you charge mee as making the Scriptures like a nose of waxe to bee set which way mens fantasie will bend it a thing as farre out of my penne as out of my heart and as far out of my heart as it is out of your heart to take my
words as I speak them HVMâ— his 5. Sect. BVt that hee neuer was there hee is too curious that will not stand content with Christes owne testimonies Father into thy handes I commend my spirit And in another place This day shalt thou bee with mee in Paradice And heere it is a world to see how men on your side labour to put out this candel First you say that this place Father into thy hands I commend my spirit is borrowed of Dauid and must bee taken in the same sense as Dauid vsed it before But you must consider when we vse other mens wordes either we cite them as testimonies or vsurpe them by imitation If we bring them in as witnesses wee may not alter their testimonie but if wee imitate them wee may without impeachmeÌ„t apply them to what sense best may beseeme our purpose In this place Christ citeth not Dauids wordes to testifie of his passion but imitateth Dauid in commending his soule into the handes of God Where you see that no necessity inforceth the same sense But be it so and I thinke it is so and that it maketh much against you For seing Dauids soule commeÌ„ded into the hands of God was neuer in Hell it will follow that Christes soule commended to the same protector was lykewise neuer there except you will ascribe lesse vertue to Christs prayers then to Dauids But Dauids soule say you went not streight way into heaven because he lived manie yeares after That he liued anie long time after if it were denied you will hardlie proue it But that maketh not to the question when Davids soule came into heauen But whether hee that commendeth his soule into the hands of God doth purpose that it shall descend into hell prooue that and you shall haue the goall As for Dauid he hauing deuoured heauen in hope doubted not if he liued anie long time after to speake that in the praesent time which he was well assured would come to pas And seeing Dauid was a figure of Christ and spake manie things in his owne person which aggree better with the person figured then with the figure these wordes may bee vnderstood as the casting of lottes on his garment and the digging of his hands and feet Wherefore if you will answere this place to the satisfaction of them that dissent from you you must bring proof that hee that meaneth to goe to Hell doth commend his soule into the handes of God or els you shall neuer bee able to darken the light of this Sunne with anie cloude of Sophistrie HILL his reply INdeed if these woords were spoken in the present time some shew of truth were in your words but in the Greeke they are in the future-tence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Father into thy hands I wil coÌ„mit my spirit Now your argument is this Christ commended his soule vnto his Father ergo immediatly he went not downe to hell Heere is more in your conclusion then is in your premises You may coâ—clud his soule went to heauen But not immediatly for it went to hell as I haue proued before for hell in the 16 Psalme doth not signifie the sorrowes of hell but the place as I haue confirmed already Therefore it is better to translate I wil commend then I do commend as Stephanus oâ— this place noteth Paule sayth Eph. 4. and 10. verse Now in that he ascended what is it but that he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth He that descended is euen the same that ascended farte aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Now if the same Christ did first desceÌ„d which did ascend then he descended in soule and body as he ascended in soule and body For both these must be effected in a wonderfull maner for they are reckoned by Salomon amongst the most stupendious works of the Sonne of God Proâ— 30. 4. Who hath ascended vp to heauen and descended who hath gathered the winde together in his fyst who hath established all the ends of the world By this scripture I iuferre that to ascend and descend are as miraculous works as to create and gouerne the world But if the soule of Christ did got to heaueÌ„ immediatly as you affirms contrary to this text then the descending of Christ had not bene so maruelous as his ascending Besides as you after alleage there is but one ascending but if Christs soule first went to heauen then his body then were there two ascensions But euen as Christ was but once borne and once dyed and once buried and once rose from the dead and but once commeth into iudgment so as Cyprian saith in his Sermon of the ascending of Christ Christ did once descend into hell they shall see God no more on the crosse nor they that are damned in hel Wherefore may it please you to accept the iudgement of Athanasius a Greke Father a man persecuted for the truthes sake by the Arrians he in his Creede saith thus who suffred for our saluation and descended into hell And interpreting the 1. Cor. 3. writeth Satan was enuious against our sauior for he killed him not knowing that it wold make against himself for Christ after his cros going down into hel hath vaÌ„quished death And becaus he knew no sin be could not be holde of deth Thus you see that not only Hill Augustine and Ierome doe say that Christ after hee had vttered these words into thy hands I will commend my spirit but Athanasius a Greek father who better then you vnderstood the meaning of these words Therefore it is a woÌ„der to see how those of your side labour to extinguish this everlasting light of Gods truth set vp a cousuming candle of your owne making Where you teach that Christs Soule did no more descend into hell then Dauids did therin you are deceaued For Christ was to deliuer vs from hell Dauid also wherefore if Christs soule had not gone to hell Dauids must and mine and yours And for this cause as you say they are true in Christ figured but not in Dauid the figure and herevpon Peter thus reasoneth that they could not be true in Dauid For Christ soule was in hel and yet not tormented his body in the graue but not corrupted wheras Dauids body saw corruption and if his soule had gone to hell it had found no redemption Therefore to be in graue and returne without corruption and to be in hell and returne with conquest of the diuell were two peculiar things to the Sonne of God not to any other of the sons of men And heere you vtter an other blasphemy that Christs soule had no other prerogatiue then Dauids soule for by the same reasone you may argue that Christs body had no greater prerogatiue then Dauids body for as this is false so
is the other For as Athanasius saith in his booke of the incarnation of the word Death Could not prevaile on the humaâ—e soule of Christ to tye him there neither corruption inâ—ading his body by â—iranny could shewe her force on him to putrefaction as things not well seene vnto for to thinke so of him were a wicked thing for even as Adam had a double punishement inflicted on him for his disobedience the on was on his body earth thou art and to earth thou shalt returne and so by this decree the body of the Lord departed vnto the earth but to the soule hee said Thou shalt dye the death Hereof it commeth to passe that man is deuided into 2. parts and is condemned to depart to 2. places and therefore it was necessary that the selfe same Iudge which had made this decree that hee by himselfe being vnder the colour of a condemned man shuld free from that sentence all beleuers Here you see by this learned Father that Christs soule went to Hell to deliuer our soules from hell and his body to the graue to deliuer vs from death by this means both body and soule personally and not potentially as you teach working our deliuerance from death and hell haue those prerogatiues which Dauids soule and body had not And for this coâ—sideration though the one was in the graue and the other in hell yet both were in the handes of the Lord. Heere then wee must learne what the hands of the Lord do signifie Sometime the hand of god doth signifie the Sonne of God Psal 144. 7. Send thy hand from aboue Sometime it signifieth the power of God Psalm 136. 12. With a mighty hand and outstretched arme Thirdly the bountifulnes of God Psal 145. Thou openest thy hand and fillest euery liuiug thing with thy blessing Foâ—rthly it signifieth consolation Ezec. 3. 22. The hand of the Lord was with me comforting me Fiftly grace Psal 118. 16. The right hand of the Lord â—ath done valiantly Sixtly it signifieth the gift of prophecie Ezec. 8. The hand of the Lord fel there vpon me Seuenthly mercy Psal 37. 24. Though he fall he shall not be cast off for the Lord putteth vnder his hand Eightly the protection of the Lord Psal 31. 15. My times are in thy hand Ninthly the aide of the Lord Psal 74. 11. Why withdrawest thou thy hand Tenthly the punishment of the Lord Iob. 19. 21. Haue pitie on me ô yee my frinds for the hande of the Lord hath touched me Lastly it signifieth the Gouernment of the Lord Psal 95. 4. In his hand at al the corners of the earth This place therefore must needes haue this construction into thy consolation mercie protection and gouernment I will commend my soule I hope you your selfe commende your soule into the handes of God euery day but yet you minde not to goe to heauen immediatly So saide Dauid Psal 30. 5. Into thy handes I commend my spirit but hee went not to heauen in manye yeares after neither did Christ ascende into heauen in many dayes after but went downe to hell where it was in the protection and gouerement of the Godhead which as you confesse descended into hell For as we being in the damned world are in the protection and hand of the highest so Christ being in the place of the damned after a wonderfull manner was also in the Lords aide and protection by meanes whereof he hath wrought our deliverance from hell Therfore proue you that Chirst went straitway to heauen and you shal effect that which many of your side haue attempted but neuer yet any coulde bring to passe It is written of Procustes that if any were too short for his bâ—â— he would not stretch theÌ„ out and make them fit for his lodging so you this place being too short to fit your wast will enlarge it with a word immediatly which is not the place primitiue or derivatiue expressely or by way of implication Moreouer where you say if I will answer this place I must proue that he that mindeth to go to hell doth vse these words I wonder that you dar vse such blasphemons speeches for hereby you insinuate that Christ was but a meere man that other men haue a part in the work of our redemption aswell as Christ For as he is our only Sauior so as Luth. saith on Gen 21. Chapter This was singular in Christ Thou shalt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption for this soule could not be deteined in hell nor his body in graue For as this was singular in Christ that hee did giue vp his ghost so was it singular in him to go to hell and returne again Ambrose saith Tradidit spiritum suum quia non inuitus amisit quod enim emittitur volunt arium est quod amittitur necessarium He gaue vp the ghost because hee lost not his soule against his will for that which is emited is voluntarie but that which is amitted is necessary Theophilact sayth hee cryed out with a loude voice and gaue vp the ghost for he had power to lay downe his life and take it vp again Now when you can proue that you or any of your side haue this power in you to dye when hee will and liue againe when hee will then will I prooue that hee that speaketh these words Into thy hands I commende my spirit hath an intent to goe to Hell But as Christ his birth was a singular thing in him so was his death buriall descending in to hel resurrection and assension into heauen Eccle. 8. 8. Man is not Lord ouer the spirite to retaine the spirit And Iohn 10. 18. Christ saith No man taketh my life from me but I lay it downe of my selfe I haue power to lay it downe and power to take it vp againe By these two places it is euident that no man can lay downe his owne spirite but the only sonne of God had that prerogatiue and therefore as the laying downe of his spirit and the taking vp of his spirit againe was wonderfull so was the state of the soule and body during the time of the seperation of the parts of the humanity singular and wonderfull Absurdities admitted in this sect by the D. First that Christ did descend in soule and bodie take it how he will is absurde If he meane into Hell taking Hel as he would haue it that is in soule onlie If into the graue it was in bodie onelie If into the wombe of the Virgine It was in Diuinitie onelie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Second If Christes soule had not gone to the locall Hell Dauids must and his and mine contrarie to the suffiencie of Christs sacrifice Third That Christes soule and bodie besides innocencie had other prerogatiues then Dauids had Contrarie to
fulfilled it vnto you their Children in that he hath raised vp Iesus even as it is written in the second Psalme Thou art my Sonne to day haue I begotten thee And in the epistle to the Hebr. 1. 5. And to which of the Angels said he Thou art my Sonne to day haue I begotten thee And againe Hebr. 5. 6. He prouing Christ to be a priest for euer thus saith Christ tooke not to himselfe this honor to be made an high priest but he that said to him Thou art my Sonne to day haue I begottē thee as he also in another place speaketh Thou art a priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech Heere Dauid the Apost do take this word to day to signifie for euer And so doth S. Augustine and M. Hil against all the gainsaiers of it in the world For the circumstances of the place do strongly conuince it For what doth the theefe aske forgiuenes of his sinnes who can forgiue sinnes God only He asketh for grace who is the giuer of all Grace God only hee desireth glory who giueth glory and life euerlasting God onely That God onely forgiueth sinnes it is proued Mar. 2. 7. That he is the giuer of al grace it is manifest 1. Pet 5. 10. That God only giueth glorye and life euerlasting it is euident 2. Tim. 48. Rom. 6. last verse Secondly wher shal he receiue this glory in Paradice For as much then as the thing that is giuen is eternall the person that giueth it is perpetuall the place where it is giuen is everlasting it must of necessitie follow that the time also be world without end And that with me signifieth as I do teach the Godhead it is constantlye auouched by all the Fathers Ierome on this place noteth Christ brought the theef from the crosse to Paradice least any man should think conuersion to be too late at any time hee made the punishment of homicide Martirdome the truth being counted among the wicked he left the one on the left hand and tooke the other on the right hand as hee will doo in the day of iudgement It were an absurd thing to say the soule of Christ only shall giue iudgement in the last day Augustine hath the like on this place The crosse if you marke it is the iudgement seate the Iudge was set in the middle the one theefe which beleeued was deliuered the other which blasphemed was condemned To saue and condemne is the office of the Deity and therfore with mee signifieth the Godhead as the other theef no doubt was with the Diuill Ambrose in his Sermon of the holy theefe writeth thus He saw him hanging on the crosse and praieth to him as though he were fitting in heauen he seeth them condemned and yet he praieth vnto him as to a king To this accordeth Damascene handling this place In respect of his body he was in graue in respect of his soule in Hell and as God he was both in Paradice with the theef and in the throne with the Father the holy Ghoste Therefore Ferus a writer not to be contemned interpreteth these woords thus Mecum eris qui sum vbique omnia in omnibus Thou shalt bee with mee which am euery where all in all In Exodus 34 6. 7. verses bee set downe the 13. names of God and Lord is one of the first of them Therefore when the theefe calleth Christ Lord he acknowledgeth him to be God and desireth to dwell with the Godhead in whose presence is the fulnes of ioy where you aske me how the Godhead can goe to heauen the worde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euen as God came downe from heauen so is he said to goe vp to heauen If you will read Augustine in this booke of the essence of the Diuinitie he will teach you Psa 68. 24. They haue seene ô God the goings of my God and king which art in thy sanctuary from heuen he came into the virgins wombe after his birth hee was laid in the cratch after that he had fulfiled al for the which he was sent of his father he was fastned to the crosse he was take◠downe from the Crosse he was buried in respect of his flesh but in soule hee descended into hell the third day by the power of the Divinitie hee raysed his flesh out of the graue and after the dayes of his resurrection the fortieth day his Apostles seeing it he ascended into heauen sitteth at the right hand of the Father that is in his glorie The theefe then praieth to Christ that as hee should sit at the right hand of the Father in glory so he might be partaker of that glory and that hee might haue his perfect consummation and blisse in heauen as Christ should haue after his ascension that his vile body which was partaker of the suffrings of Christ might also bee partaker of his glory and made like to the glorious body of Christ Iesus Twise you haue told me that thou shalt be with me is as much as I and you 176 but you bring neither scripture nor father to confirme it in that sense that you meane it But if you mean thus I and thou shall be together that is thou shalt be pertaker of the glory of the Deity as thou hast ben partaker of the suffrings with the humanitie it is true For what neede had the theef to pray for the presence of Christs soule when he had the presence both of body and soule But it is the presence and fellowship of the deuine nature that he prayeth for wherin as Dauid saieth is the fulnes of ioy pleasure for euermore Psa 16. 11. In Luke 13. 26. The Iewes say we haue eaten and drunken in thy presence and thou taught in our streetes Christ thus answereth in the 27. and 28. verses I tell you I know you not depart from me all yee workers of iniquite there shall be weping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham Isaac and Iacob in the kingdom of God and your selues cast out of dores Therefore it is cleere they are not all blessed which were present with Christs humanitie but they of whom Saint Peter saith 2. Pet. 1. 4. Whereby most great and precious promises are giuen vnto vs that by them we should be partakers of the nature of God For therefore did Christ take vpon him our nature that wee might bee pertakers of the nature of God and be on with Christ as he is on with his Father Christ prayer is to this end Iohn 17. 21. I pray not for these alone but for them also which shall beleeue in mee through their word that they all bee one as thou O Father art in me and I in thee euen that they
also may be on in vs. Two absurdities by implication in the D. reply That to saue and condemne is the office of the God-head onlie and not of the humanity contrary to Mark. 2. 10. Act. 10. 42. and Ioh. 5. 27. Or else the collection out of Augustine will not holde that with mee doth signifie the God-head onelie That the theef prayed not for the presence of the bodie and soule which hee had but for the presence of the diuine nature as if the deuine nature had euer bene absent from the soule and bodie contrarie to the Hypostasis and vniting of the persons HVME his reioynder to the 4. sect OVr reason is if Christ went that same day as hee suffered to Paradice he wēt not to Hell amōgst the damned But he went that same day to Paradice Ergo he wēt not to hel amōgst the dāned For the minor we haue Christ himself witnes Luk. 23. 43. You replied at Chippenhā out of Aug. that this promis to the theef Thou shalt be with me is ment onlie of the Godhead of Christ and not of his soule To that answere I rejoyned saving Augustines reverence whome I honour as farre as it is meet to honour a man what euer you beare your reader in hand to the contrary that this being spoken in the future time and implying an absence at that present from his kingdome could not pertaine to the Godhead being at all times in all places That heere is implyed an absence it is cleare by the theefes sute Remember mee when thou commest into thy kingdome And that this is spoken in the future time it is manifest by Christes answere Then shalt be with mee in Paradice which by a rule of Grammer is as if he had said I and thou shall be in Paradice which is a plaine future tense Nowe heere in this your reply you passe by this testimony of this holie theefe and him in whome was neuer found theft nor guile as if you looked for better witnesses If these be not sufficient I haue no better but I hope the reader will esteeme better of their wordes and count mumme but a meane answere Yet if you were half so worthie your scarlet hood as manie do hope and you do think there was left you more shewe of a probable reply That these thinges be spoken of the Deitie per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wherfore to preuent your hope if you chance to finde it heereafter I will now teare the bosse from that bukler This figure is neuer applyed to anie text but when some inconuenience in the letter will take no salue but such a corrasiue But this text if it be well handled needeth no such hard plaister Ergo this figure is not to bee applyed to this text Heere neglecting the answere that had anie shew of probabilitie and replying nothing to my argument to make shew of some thing you pick two quarrels to mee in your written copie of which you scrape out one for shame in your print for falsefiing the text The first is that I translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Maister and not Lord. The second that I translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to day but this day Where I pray thee marke gentle Reader that though I were guiltie of both these faultes yet my argument drawn from the future time standeth betweene both these blowes without tip or tap But because it is a hainous matter to peruert the Scriptures I will not confesse a crime so odious being innocent And now M. Doctor if you were a Schoolmaister as you were some time and would seem yet and did beat your Scholler for construing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Maister men might say that you were more worthie of the rod then he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be relatiues in greke as seruus and Dominus in latine and Maister and servant in English so are they vsed Eph. 5. 6. Col. 3. 22. and 4. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nowe then if the english of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be a servant the English of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must be a Maister Neither is it denied but that in some case it may be Englished Lord. Some servants haue Lords and all Lords exercise a magisteriall power ouer their vassals As for this place it seemeth to expresse the Hebrew RABBI which was to them a cōmon stile of dignitie as Maister is in English And therfore in my simple vnderstanding so far is it from heresie that this seemeth the fittest English to meete that greeke in this place But you beat mee with two sore arguments the one that Stephanus doeth write 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with a capitall letter the other that in the 34 of Exod. bee set downe the 13. names of God and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the first of them You were much beholden to Stephanus If he had chanced to write 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with a sorting letter you had lost the best argument that euer was bred with your mothers milke and a weapon to cashire our banners But they be not Babilonian as you imagine they are as I said and you see the banners of truth that will not be cashired with a capitall K. As for the 13. names of God I neuer observed onlie so manie neither can I finde just that nomber in that place whither you send mee The first name in that place and the onlie name for any thing that I can see is IEHOVAH the very essential name of God The rest be Epithets not names But tell in good sadnesse M. Doctor is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same in greek that IEHOVAH is in Hebrew I euer took IEHOVAH to come from HAIAH a verbe of beeing to declare that God the cause of all beeings hath no cause of his owne beeing And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I tooke to expresse the rule and commandement which hee doth exercise ouer his creatures But say you the theefe when hee called him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did cal him God If that bee of necessitie then servants obey your maisters will soūd servāts obey your Gods You will not I hope stand to this Divinitie As for the translating of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this day if I was deceaued the greek and latine deceaued mee For seeing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and hodie compounded of hoc die did meete the same I thought I wanted not reason to translat it this day But if this be haeresie how will you couer the same wart on your own nose fol. 20. pag. 1 of your printed sermon here in this same sect also Your reason why it may not be translated this day is that to day is an indefinite this day a particular But this was so subtile in your printed copie that you are ashamed of it good cause had you For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is so particular of it self that
Martyr Lauaterus Prouerb 27. In England Lambert Robert Samuel Latimer Becon Hutchinson Fox and Nowell Heere are 20. most learned men of these latter times as I can shew you in my poore Library besides that most learned and reuerend Father M. Allen and besides the aduised iudgement of the learned Conuocations of England not only in King Edwards raigne Anno Domini 1552. but also since the raigne of her Maiestie 1571. In the which Canuocations I am perswaded were as learned men as any were either in England or Europe Therfore the learned reader must either thinke you a man of little reading and that you neuer sawe these learned mens workes or else of greate malice that you will disable al these for learning who left a better testimonie behinde them then euer you wil vnlesse you haue mor then you haue shewed in this answer The other vntruth is that SHEOL in the 16. Psalme doth signyfie the torments of hell which Christ suffered in his passioÌ„ on y â— crosse That this is vntrue it is manifest not by conceit but by Pet. Sermon Act. 2. 31. Hee knowing this before spake of the resurrection that his soule was not left in hell nor his flesh saw corruption You say it is spoken of the passion Peter saith it is spoken of the resurrection and good cause hath he so to say for the words going before and coÌ„ming after do prooue it The words going before are these Psalm 16 9. Wherefore my hart was glad my glory reioyseth my fleshe also shall rest in hope The words following in the 11. verse are these Thou shalt shewe me the path of life in thy presence is the fulnes of ioy and at thy right are pleasures for euer more Where can you finde your torments in the word glad or in the word reioiseth or in the word rest or in these words fulnesse of ioy or in these pleasures for evermore Was Christ glad of his torments Did he reioise or wepe in them Who would deliuer this doctrine but hee that wanteth either science or conscience or both To lye once is a fault but affirme it twice is a greater fault To speake a lye is hurtful but to write a lye aduisedly is more hurtfull To lye in a matter politicall is dangerous but to lye in deuine matters without speedie repentance is damnable You say noe vantage is giuen to me nor inconuenience to you if you grant SHEOL to be Hel Let your frinds iudge what vantage you haue geuen to the truth and shame to your self by gainsaying Saint Peter and by affiâ—ming that in the resurrection are torments where Dauid and Peter say are fulnes of ioy and pleasures for enermore Therefore it is the saying of Peter that Christs soule was not left in hell and not my conceit and it is deceit in you to affirm the contrary Further where you say that Tremelius and Iunius are better learned in the Hebrew language then my selfe I confesse it so are the Iewes them selues then Tremelius and Iunius shall I therefore beleue the Iewes no more will I beleue the Translation of any other learned man if he disagree with Dauid and Sauite Peter Finially to answer your curious question you aske me in what hell was Christ soule before his buriall To this I answer in that hell whither all Infidels goe for their vnbelefe I reade but of one Hell if you knowe any more let mee see your proofe and theÌ„ wil I tel you into what hel Christ desceÌ„ded But who but you doth thinke it an vnpossible thing for a soule to desceÌ„d into hel before the body be buried The soule in an instaÌ„t passeth to heaueÌ„ or hel but the body I am sure must haue time to be buried for bodies are in places circumscriptiuely Angels and soules definitiuely and God is in all places vniuersally And the soule came out of hell into the body before the body could come out of the graue therfore most aptly it is said Acts 12. 31. Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer my flesh to see corruption For as August saith in his 57. epistile ad Dardanum That was spoken of his soul which cam from hel so quickly this of his body which could not corrupt by reason of his speedy resurrection and writing on the 85. Psalme he saith wherfore this is his voice in the psalme not by any mans coniecturs but by the exposition of the Apost Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption HVME his Reioynder IN this section I followed Calvine from whose judgement I am nowe departed on this place of the Psalme as said is before sect 4. Yet that the reader may see how neare the trueth Calvine creepes I will defend him from all this wyde shot and cleare my self of these hainous accusations First you begin with vntruthes there is nothing so much in your mouth It should seeme that the moulde is not vnfit for such matter that casteth so much shot of that sise But if you had not beleeued your secretarie better then my owne copie the first of these vntruthes had neuer founde the waye from your owne lippes My wordes are Tu multa de nominibus inferni contra doctissimos huius atatis disputas As for your favorits in the end of my Epistle I graunted that you wanted not the countenance of sundrie great writers who rather said as you say then confirme their saying by Scripture or reason My wordes were multos habet fateor magnâ—s patronos causa vestra qui ita potius censuerunt quam ratione sententiam suam confirmarunt NotwithstaÌ„ding all this you runne such a treble on mee with vntruthes that if I would runne the counter-tenor you would blushe to heare the discorde of your owne descant As for your 20. authours first they were not all Hebricians nor vnderstood the word wherin you say they tooke your parte Secondlie though some of them drewe neere your opinion yet they neuer wrote of SHEOL to bee taken as you will haue it Thridlie Peter Martyr held that the soule of Christ did present it self to all the dead aswel the blessed as the damned Fourthlie Luther and Latimer holde that Christ suffered in Hell Fiftlie Lossius and Hemingsus holde that the whole Christ as he was borne of the Virgine Marie descended into Hel. Sixtlie Mollerus affirmeth that your opinion cannot be proved by this place of this Psalme Seuinthly M. Nowell holdeth that Christ by the vertue of his death did pearse to the dead and the damned Hell Eightlie Lambert saith nothing for you but onelie quoteth a place out of Augustine to another purpose wherein August seemeth to say as you say But Lambert neither lyketh nor dislyketh it Nynthlie Robert Samuell saith no more for
you then the verie wordes of the beleef Tenthlie in M. Foxes book of Christ triumphing ther is not anie thing for you but the Printers picture which you haue also set before your owne booke Lastlie Felinus and Pomeranus are with vs and against you Such is your skill to bleare the blinde make him thinke that your foes are your friends Thus if a man could intend to trace you he might finde you quatt in manie bushes where you want couer to hide your bunne If anie writer name but Hell it is ynough to make you bragge that he is youres As for the other vntruth wherewith you charge me it is answered sect 4. Yet because you think heere to winn the spurres and haue bragged amongst your frends that in this place you haue driuen mee so neere the hedge that I can neuer escape you without the foile it may be that that conceit may contem my answer Prejudice is a strong baye and will beare a maine strength before it breake Wherefore heere I will onelie turn the cock and make it spout the same water in your owne face to make you faine to flee to my cloake to keepe your shoulders from the shoure You holde that SHEOL in the 16. Psalme doth signify the locall Hell wherein the damned are tormented That this is vntrue it is manifest not by conceit but by Peters sermon Act. 2. 31. Hee knowing this before spake of the resurrection that his soule was not left in Hell nor his flesh saw corruption You say it is spoken of the locall Hell wherein the damned are punished Peter saieth it is spoken of the resurrection and good caus hath hee so to say For the wordes going before and comming after do proue it The words going before are these Psa 16. 9. Wherefore my hart was glad my glorie to vse your own translatiō lest you say I alter your words rejoiceth my flesh also shal rest in hope The words following in the 11. verse are these Thou shalt shew mee the path of life in thy presence is the fulnesse of joy and at thy right hand are pleasures for euermore Where can you finde your locall Hell wherin is weeping and gnashing of teeth in the word glad or in the worde rejoiceth or in the woorde rest or in the wordes fulnesse of joy or in these wordes pleasure for euermore Was Christ glad of that doole-full and dread-ful place Who would deliuer this doctrine but hee that wanteth either science or conscience or both To lie once is a fault but to affirme twise is a greater fault To speak a lie is hurtfull but to write a lie advisedlie is more hurtfull To lie in a matter Politicall is dangerous but to lie in divine matters without speedie repentance is damnable Thus far you This is your owne manerlie tale filed on your owne vice and taken out of your printed booke Wherein you giue your selfe roundly and handsomly the single-lie the double-lie the hurtfull-lie the advised-lie the dangerous-lie the damnable-lie If I had blowne this wind in your face you would haue said that I had beene bred in an Oxe-stall As for your opinion on this place of the Psalme I haue two sore shot against it That SHEOL heere can no waies bee the locall hell First it is in the Hebrew SHEOL and in the 70. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou wilt not leaue my soule to hell and this place of the Actes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not true greeke except you vnderstand 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you note your self out of Clenard sect 14. Now thou wilt not leaue my soule to Hell cannot be vnderstood of a praesentiall beeing in the place of hell Ergo this place cannot be vnderstood of Christ that he was in the locall Hell If you bee so good a Graecian as you would be taken you should not bee ignorant that to make your sense it should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it is in Math. 12. 40. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The other is this No man reioiceth that hee is deliuered from a place wherein hee suffered no ill but Christ heere rejoyceth vers 26. and 27. that hee should not bee left in SHEOL Ergo SHEOL is not heer the place of the damned wherein you say he triumphed and joyed and suffered no kinde of ill As for my science and conscience which heere you strike at you praise them your selfe such is your constancie in the beginning of your 12. section I knowe mine owne infirmities and dare not accept your praises As for my knowledge I am content that men count of it as they finde it As for my life I dare not bragg neither will I speake anie thing absolute but comparate this much I will say seeing you put mee to it that where wee are both knowne I can finde more mouthes to speake my purgation if I holde but vp my finger then your self can procure by freendes meanes You confesse which manie men wold think though you confessed it not that Tremelius and Iunius are better Hebricians then your self and affirme that the Iewes are better then they For my parte it is beyond my skill to make comparisons and my blinde eies can see no reason for that oddes But as you will not beleeue the Iewes you say no more will you Tremelius and Iunius against Dauid Peter You haue reason for you Yet til you proue it other men will suspect that Tremelius and Iunius had both as much care and as great judgement to keepe in with Dauid and Peter as you And for anie thing we see it is credible inough that Dauid Peter and they doe drawe all one way If you will beleeue the Iewes in nothing you doe them wrong If all men had been as hard laced as you no man had euer gotten Hebrew of them You answere the antecedent of my argument which you call a curious question without curious meditation It shoulde seeme that the question was more curious in your tongue then your eies that you can answere so readilie You trifle and tell mee that you read but of one Hell And I answere you that he who in serious matters of faith can finde a cavill a rebus ad voces will hardlie find credite of sincere dealing Did not you see that I spake of the three things signified in that name and not of the damneds Hell onelie which hath almost gotten the English name to it self from the other two For my part I neuer thought it a thing vnpossible for a soule to discend into Hell before the buriall of the body but that Christs soule should descend into hel and returne againe for so the wordes of the Psalme doth sound Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hel before the buriall of the bodie as the words do lie in order I euer held it and holde it yet a thing that you neuer saw and impossible for you to
prooue with witnesses But in one thing you seeme farre heere to ouer-shoot your selfe Your mates reason against vs that the pangs of Hell which went before the buriall cannot bee ment by these wordes following it You open your owne side to that blowe and put the discending into the locall Hell before his buriall also and make that argument stronger against your self then you finde it against vs. Thus you see al this great winde is ouerblowne and shakes no corne HVME his 8. Sect. HEere to let this passe your next reason is from that place of Paul But that he ascended what is it els but that he first descended into the lowermost parts of the earth Where you holde that the lowermost partes of the earth muste needes signifie the pit of Hell Which thing if it were so sure as you beare in hand I wonder that no Diuines I speake of the modester sorte did yet gather heereupon that the place of Hell were the verie center of the earth But wheras you avouche so confidentlie that ERETS TACHTITH doth signifie Hel as properlie in Hebrew as hel doth in English though I meane not to stand with you for the tongue yet pardon mee to dissent from you in this For in the places which you quote it can not in my simple vnderstanding carie that sense Your first place is They which seek my soule shall go down into the lowermost partes of the earth which cannot bee meant of Hell except these reasons deceaue mee First it might seeme a presumption to enter so farre into Gods secrets as to judge his owne priuate enemies Next it should seeme not to stand with the affections of a godlie heart to ascribe that place to his enemies out of the horrour wherof there is no redemption For the children of God do rather pray for their enemies desire their amendement This place may be wel construed of the graue For it is an argument vsed by the Prophete to lay the pride of them that sought his soule and to solace himself recording that their hatred should haue an end wheÌ„ the graue should swallow them The wordes â—ollowing confirme this sense That they shall fal vpon the edge of the sword which cannot be vnderstood but of temporall death HIL his reply INdeed I brought this place Eph. 4. 9. to proue that Christ descended into Hell And whereas you charge me with immodesty for so alleadging of it I must needs charge you with two vntruths in answering this allegatioÌ„ The one is y â— I called it the pit of Hel which phraise I neuer vsed The other is you haue impudently aâ—ouched that none of the modester sorte of diuines haue euer alleadged this place to proue the descending of Christ into â—el 223 For many and those both learned and modest haue alledged this place to this purpose Athanasius interpreting this Epistle and texte thus writeth Into what place did he desceÌ„d Into hel truly which he calleth according to the coÌ„mon opinioÌ„ of men the lowest parts of the earth Ambrose on this place saith thus This Christ therefore comming downe from heauen into the earth was borne a man afterward he dyed and descended into hell from whence rising the third day he went vp to heauen before all mortall men that hee might shewe deth to be vanquished to every creature Chrisostome on this place saith Hee went to those partes of the earth then the which nothing is lower and from thence lies ascended into heauen then the which nothing is higher The like hath Augustine li. de Trin. chap. 19. Ieromâ— on this text thus noteth That Hell is vnder the earth noe man doubteth for he that descended in soule into hell asceÌ„ded both body soule into heaueÌ„ Mollerus a learned Minister of Germany on the sixtene Psalme saith that the descending into hel is plainly proued out of the Ephesians the fourth chapter Musculus on the 68. Psalm thus writeth This God which was in Christ reconciling the world vnto himself first descended into the lowest partes of the earth then he lead captuitie captiue and not only we ar deliuered from the captuity of Satan sinne death and damnation but also Christ triumphing ouer them aâ—tirants hath ascended aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Hemingius on the 2. Chapter to the Colossians thus also teacheth As by his deathe he conflicted with the enemye one the crosse so by his glorious descending into hell resâ—â—â—â—ection and Ascention he triumphed as it is Ephe 4. Leauing his cros lift vp as a monumeÌ„t of his victory To conclud Alesius a very learned preacher of Scotland on the 19. chapter of Iohn affirmeth that the 1. Pet. 3. Eph. 4. do manifestly proue the descending of Christ into hell if Athanasius Chrysostome Ambrose Augustine and Ierome of the old fathers and Mollerus Musculus Hemingius and Alesius of the new writers be all immodest diuines then haue you truelye saide but if in the iudgement of the learned all these were most reuerend men then most shameles are you to accuse them of the want of modesty More ouer where you say no diuine dare to dispute where hell is it is true in some sort for no diuine can 252 circumscribe the place of hel which is infinite nor yet of heauen only the word of God affirmeth that heauen is aboue Gal. 4. 26. And hell is beneath Prouerbs 15. 24. Therefore the lowest parts of the earth may well be taken for hel Then you goe further say that ERETS TAGHTITH doth not signifie hell Psal 63. and for this you bring two reasons the one is y â— it were a presumption in the Prophet to iudge his enemies 2. that it standeth not with the affections of a godly minde to assign hell to his enemies but to pray for them to your first reason this I answer In the Psalm 9. 18. Dauid useth the like speeche The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the people that forget God which text Caluin thus expoundeth the Hebrewe word SHEOLâ—â— which was doubtfull I haue not doubted to translate hell for though it doth not displease me that others 〈◊〉 it Sepulcher yet it is sure heer is som thing noted besides common death otherwise he should speak nothing of the reprobate but that which did generally happen to al beleuers In the hundred and â—inth Psalme also Dauid thus praieth Let Satan stand at his right hand let his prayer be turned into sinne let the wickednes of his Father be had in remembrance in the sight of the Lord and let not the sinne of his mother be done away **** Do you think this to bee spoken presâ—â—tuously Many such texts could 〈◊〉 alleadge to proue that Dauid inspired with the spirit of prophecye did foretel not only of the tragicall destruction of the bodies of his
heere now knowe if you knowe it not that I haue such reasons not to take your signification of SHEOL heere as shoulde carie you as well as mee if your wit were not maried to your wil. First though the Assyrians and Babilonians of whome the Prophetes speak in these places were heathens and damnable miscreants yet it was not their purpose to speake heere of their aeternall damnation but of the dishonorable destruction of their temporal kingdomes Secondlie that which Esay in the 9. vers calleth Hell he calleth four times the graue and twise the pit in the same chap. Thirdlie in the same ver which you quote hee saieth that hell raising vp the dead even all the Princes of the earth did meete the king of Babell But all the dead euen the Princes of the earth were not in the Hell of the dāned Fourthlie in the 11. ver he calleth the place into the which the King of Babell was brought the graue with wormes vnder and ouer him But that cannot be the place of the damned Ergo the place of which he speketh heere cannot be the place of the damned Fiftlie in the 15. and 16. verses hee saieth When hee was brought downe to the graue to the sides of the pit they that sawe him shoulde say is this hee that made the earth to tremble But men coulde not see and looke into his falling into the place of the damned Ergo the place whereof he there speaketh is not the place of the damned Thus much for Esay For Ezechiel First in the 14. verse he joyneth the lower-moste parts of the earth with them that goe downe into the pit and in the 16. verse hee joineth the going to hell with the same But to descend into the pit is to goe downe into the graue not into hell Ergo both the lower-most partes of the earth and SHEOL heere is taken for the graue Secondlie in the same 14. verse the nether partes of the earth is the pit and place of death common to all the children of men But the pit and place of death common to all men is not the place of the damned Ergo the low er-most partes of the earth is not heere the place of the damned Thirdlie in the 16. verse The Lord did make the nations of the earth to shake at the sound of his fall when he did cast him downe into Hell But the nations of the earth heard not nor felt not his fall into the Hell of the damned Ergo this is not vnderstood of the Hell of the damned All these reasons had I and they made mee dare to translate SHEOL not the place of the damned but graue And therfore M. Doctor you may cease to wonder at mee if you will And nowe I must wonder also at your manner of reasoning That the lower-moste partes of the earth doeth signifie Hell saye you I will prooue it by the 12. verse of the same Chap. of Ezech. And the strangers haue destroyed him euen the terrible nations c. Then not finding your purpose there you runne to Munster Lavater and Pellicane that the King of Asshur was the prey of carnivorous byrds and yet not finding to satisfie you you wring out a consequence that if he was deuoured of beasts then he was not buried if he was not buried then hee was not in the graue If he was not in the graue then the lowermost parts of the earth wherin he was must needs be Hell Where I tell you I must needs wonder how you could leape so many ditches without a staffe to finde Hell in this verse For all the load you lay vpon me here of ignorance misvsing the text I did not take one such leape in all my Letter As for my instance out of the 139. psalme that SHEOL doth not alwayes signifie Hell but may signifie the mothers wombe you say it is childish reason prooue it with a Catholik rule that Argumentum ductum à Metaphora non valet I knowe not what you mean by an argumēt à metaphora This is the first time that euer I hard metaphora suspected to be a topick place yet I haue heard good argumēts in metaphorical words Christ himself the best logician that euer I knew had wont to make many such As for example The seruant that putteth not his Lords talent to the vantage shal be cast into vtter darknes where shal be weping gnashing of teeth But al ministers that labour not faithfully in their charges are such Ergo all ministers that labor not faithfully in their charge shal be cast into vtter darknes c. I beleeue at the latter day when arguments wil be as well sifted as euer they were in the school-streats at Oxen. this will be found a good argument for all the metaphora that is in it As for my argument I see not how it is a metaphora Though the signification of the word be metaphorical as Caluin wel noteth yet it serueth my turne to prooue that it is not alwayes Hell And now you put me in minde of it I will picke another argument out of the same place that perhapps will trouble you worse That is the naturall signification of euery worde whence the metaphoricall is taken But this signification of these wordes the lowermost parts of the earth is taken from the dennes and cauernes of the earth as you note me out of Caluine Ergo the proper◠signification of this worde is the dennes and cauernes of the earth and not Hell of the damned Of this judgement is Mercerus Cevalerus and Cornelius Bertramus in their additions to Pagnines Lexicon You confute Beza and me for applying these wordes to the place of the Ephes thus He that descended is euen the same that ascended But he ascended in soule and bodie Ergo he descended in soule and bodie which is not true of his descending into the virgins womb And here you charge vs with ignoraunce or wilfull denying the Incarnation of Christ Good M. D. vse me as you wil but be good to Beza he hath bene well thought of as yet I wonder that seeing so much against him and me you coulde not see the same against your self You hold that this is ment of his descending into the local Hell against which thus I vse your owne reason He that descended is euen the same that ascended But he ascended bodie soule Ergo he descended into Hell bodie soule a thing that you haue not yet granted Howe you will answere for your selfe I leaue it to yourself I haue answered sect 5. for Beza and me see there We denie not the incarnation of Christ you purge vs your self within fiue lines Wherfore you might haue let Theoph. alone if you had no more skill to proue thinges not denyed then the things in question and controuerted HVME Sect. 10. BVt to let you alone with your Hebrewe these wordes of the Apostle can no wayes be taken for Hell as you beare vs in hand
But doth purport the same that Iohn tolde vs in other wordes I came from my Father into the world and again I leaue the world and go to my Father For seeing the Apostle in this place bringeth his ascension as an argument of his descending which Iohn also did before him No man can asscend vp into heauen but he that hath descended from heaven the sonne of man which is in heauen It must follow by necessarie consequence that he descended thither whence he ascended Now I trust you will say that he ascended into heauen not from Hell but from Bethanie in the sight of his Disciples Secondlie if the place where he descended was heauen Hel cannot be the place whither hee descended For if euer he was there he went not thither in 30. yeares after his descension and aboue If you will say that he first descended into the earth and then into Hell then that descending could not be one motion beeing so manie yeares intermitted but must needes bee two first from heauen into the earth and then from the earth into Hell HIL his Reply VVHere you say you will let mee alone with my Hebrue words yet deny they signifie hel I hope because I haue proued that they signifie not the graue as you haue ignorātly or against your conscience affirmed at your next answering you will say they signifie hell and confesse your disagreement with Dauid Esay and Ezechiel Now you conclude with certaine pregnant reasons as you imagine your first is this These words do purporte vnto vs that which Iohn told vs in other words I cam from my father into the world and againe I leaue the world and goe to my Father Ioh. 16. 18. This is nothing pertaning to the matter we haue in hand vnles this be your argument Christ came into the world ergo he went not into Hell Heerof I thus argue Christ descended into the virgins wombe as your selfe say ergo he came not into the world Or thus Christ descended into the world ergo he descended not into the graue Christ was borne of the virgin came into the world to reconcile vs to his Father by his death taking away our sinnes and triumphing in his owne person ouer death and hell 319 Therefore not only Christ came downe into the world but as our body for sinne lyeth in the graue so his body went into the graue and because our soule was mancipate vnto hell his soule went into hel that by his discending our soules might bee freed from hell In your next reason you say that Christ descended thither whence he ascended now that is meerely false as appeereth Math. 12. 40. For as Ionas was in the whales belly 3 dayes and 3. nights so shall the Sonne of man be 3. daies and 3. nightes in the hart of the earth Now Christ ascended from the superficies of the earth but he descended into the hart of the earth Therefore as this is no good argument Christ ascended from the mount ergo he ascended not from the graue so this is also a weake argument Christ ascended from the world ergo he went not into hell M. Hume lyeth in his bed and early ariseth afterward many seeing him he rideth towards Bromham ergo M. Hume came from Bath and not from his bed Then you adde this reason if Christ descended into hell then it was 30. yeeres after his birth and so it was not one motion you charge me with cloudes of sophistry but heer is a thick mist of sophistications what you meane by this motion I know not but all the actions of our Sauiour are aptly deuided into humility and glory of his humility there are 4. degrees First he came into the virgins womb secondly into the world thirdly to the graue fourthly to hel Of his glory and exaltation likewise there are foure degrees First he came out of hell and the graue secondly he conuersed in the earth thirdly hee was carried in the aire in a cloud and then entred the heauens with glory Also where you say that if hell were the place whyther he descended it must needs be the place from whence he ascended This as I haue saide before is vtterly false if you meane the immediate place from whence he ascended for it is known to all beleuers that Christ did descend into the graue but he did not ascend immediatlye from the graue therefore your reason is against the Scripture wher you make a distinction betwene the resurrection and the ascention you may vnderstande if it please you that Eph. 4. 9. The word ascend containeth in it al y ◠degrees of Christs exaltation therfore the resurrection also as the word descend doth comprehēd all the degrees of Christs humilitie HVME his Reioynder IT is as easie to holde an Eele by the taile as you to the question The place whereon wee stand is in the 4. 9. to the Ephes But that hee ascended what is it but that hee first descended into the lower-moste partes of the earth Which wordes most of the learned and many of your owne favorites takes to be as if he had said that the Sonne of God cloathed in mans nature is ascended vp to heauen what is it but that the same Sonne of God first came downe into the lower-most partes of the earth and tooke on him mans nature so that hee which descended is euen the selfe same that is ascended to fulfill all things and giueth nowe these gifts to men to bee some Apostles some Prophetes some Evangelistes c. And so they take the lower-most parts of the earth not to be the center of the earth in respect of his highest and extreame superficies but the whole earth in respect of the heuens Or if you like not that which notwithstanding is most receaued amongst the learned the base estate that hee descended into in respect of the high estate that he descended from To ouerthrowe this interpretation you alledge that the Hebrew wordes ERETSTACHTITH is in that language the proper name of Hell To proue it you alledge the places which I haue confuted in the former 2. sectiōs After which labour I gathered some reasons from the infallible rules of nature to proue that this place cannot carie your sense My grounds were Vnius motus vnum est principium vnus finis And contrariorum motuum vnius res moventis principium vnius est finis alterius contra For example East and West South and North vp and downe are contraries If anie thing runne west-warde and return east-ward the furthest point that it runneth towards the west is the beginning of the motion towards the east or if a man come down a high hill and returne vp againe The lowest steppe that he came downe is the first step of his going vp Whervpon thus I resoned The beginning of Christs ascending
the soule of Christ were in heauen vntill his resurrection then could not these words of Christ bee true Iohn 20. 17. Touch me not for I haue not yet ascended vnto my father for it is the preter-perfect tense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore as this is vntrue to say that Abraham is not in heauen because his body was not in heauen so this is false to say Christ was not in heauen because his body was not in heauen Our body is gouerned by the soule and man taketh his appellation of a reasonable creature not of the body but of the soule and therefore if Christs soule went vp to heauen as you say this cannot be true I haue not yet ascended to my father Besides if Christs soule went first to heauen and afterward his soule and body togither then were there 2. ascensions proue this and I will geue you the goale You dally also with my argument in this manner The whole race of mankind is not in England ergo there is no men in England Do you think there is no more union betwixt Christ and his soule then betwene all the men of the world then by this reason the body and the soule of Christ were neuer vnited together Your next resemblance is this Edmund Campions whole body is not ouer Newgate Ergo no part of him Heere is a foule error to thinke Christs soule to be an integral or diuisible part which is ane essential or indiuisible for by your reason Christs soule is mortal may perish as the integral parts of CampioÌ„ doth You vtter also an other error in these words the whol man Christ for the whol man doth not make Christ but God and man as you may see in Athanasius Creede As the reasonable soule and flesh is one man So god and man is one Christ I will ende therefore with this saying of Irynaeus who liued vnder Marcus Antonius in the yeare of our Lord god 125 which thus proueth the descending of Christ into hell For the writing against Heretiques that said hel was in this world as many doo now a dayes thus reproueth them in his fift book and last chapter As Ionas taried in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the Sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth And the Apostle saith what is it that he ascended but that he first descended into the lowest partes of the earth and Dauid prophecying of this sayd Thou hast deliuered my soule from the nethermost hel and rising again the third day he sayd to Mary which he sawe first and worshipped him Touch me not for I haue not yet asscended to my Father but go to my Disciples and tel them I will go to my Father and to your Father If then the Lord keep the law of the dead that he might be the first begotten of the dead how are they ashamed that say hell is in this world Thus you see it is no strange thing to see this scripture alleadged to proue that Christs soule was not in heauen vntil his visible and glorious ascention Irenaeus a man of more learning and iudgement then I am of alleaged it to the same end aboue 1300. years ago and then it was accompted a currant argument among the learned HVME his reioynder to the 11. sect HEere before you will buckle with this section you thrust for-ward your invincible Goliah as you suppose and will haue him make an end of this battell You say that neither I nor anie of my freends dare meet him You thought so because amongst all his fellowes I mist him onelie But you are deceaued of his valour He hid himself amongst the slaine heapes of his fellowes If I had seene his creast I had seauen stones in a scrip the least wherof was big inâ—â—gh to beat his braine through his helmet The place is in the 17. of Eccles I neede not repeat the wordes First I could haue tolde you that the booke is not Canonicall Secondlie that it was not written in the tongue on the property whereof you build your argument Thirdly that these words the lowermost parts of the earth be not in the originall wherein this book was first written and therfore haue gotten Tom Drummes intertainment by the Geneua translatours lunius Vatablus and divers others Fourthlie that though it had pleased Iesus the sonne of Syrach to cal Hell by that name it will not follow that all other men did vse the worde so Fiftly that you could finde those words in that sense in some place of the Canonicall Scriptures which indeede you cannot it will not follow that whersoeuer wee meete with them they must haue the same signification except the necessarie circumstances doe approue or inforce it Sixtlie that seeing that place is spoken of the mercifull them whose good deedes the Lord doth keep as the aple of his eie it were a bad reward for men whose good deedes are so precious in the Lordes eies to bee casten into the dungeon of Hell Seventhlie and lastlie that seeing the common translator who foisteth in those words doth make it the reward of euery man to be cast into the lowermost parts of the earth it wil passe your skill to proue that euerie man shall be cast into hel The note in the margent of the 25. 35. of Math. helpeth not you but prooueth the contrarie that this place pertaineth to them that giue meat to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie and clothes to the naked c. Thus you may see that this champion is not so strong as you take him and that the note in the margent whosoeuer made it helpeth you like ale in your shoes You tell mee that nowe I am come to my schoole-points which in you I called Sophistrie The true maximes and rules of art sucked out of the marrowes of nature I neuer called Sophistrie in you nor no man else Your shrimpish reasons set out in the painted coates of blased words and confidentlie commended to the beholders without al bounds of modestie I haue called them what I haue called them and not so ill as they deserue My rule which you say were sophistrie if you vsed it as I doe you confesse it to be true in integrall parts Nowe say I the soule and the bodie be integrall parts of a man Ergo by your owne confession my rule is true of the soule and the bodie But if you had taken my maxime right you should haue found it hold in all parts whatsoeuer For I meant that a particular negatiue of the whole is not good to bring in a negatiue of anie particular part All Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate importeth that some part of him haÌ„geth there And all men bee not in England importeth that there be some men there which bee particular negatiues expressed in generall tearmes as non omris and nonnullns
bee in Latine Thus much for the aunswere that you deale with You left another answere which I will heere set against your argument in his best liuery If the man is said to be say you wher the soule is then where the man is not the soule is not But the man is saide to bee where the soule is Ergo where the man is not the soule is not First say I the maior is not true For though the man may bee said to bee where the soule is by a Synecdoche yet it will not follow that where the man is not the soule is not Because this speach is simple and that is figuratiue In a good argument the wordes must carie one face not heere one and there another To examplifie this with your owne examples out of Math 8. Manie shall rest with Abraham Isaac and Iacob in the kingdome of heauen Abraham Isaac and Iacob are said to be in heauen by a figure becaus their soules are there But if you will take the words simplie and conclude because Abraham that is the whole man is not in heauen therefore his soule is not there euerie carter will finde the absurditie of your fallacie This for my first reply Now I add that you flee from the wordes of the text For Christ said not to Marie I haue not beene with my Father but I am not yet ascended to my Father which wordes will admit no forme to carie your conclusion turne them and winde them as you list For the Scripture denieth in plaine words that the name of ascension can be giuen to the soule I hope you will grant that Dauids soule is in heauen and yet of him it is saide Act. 2. 34. David is not ascended This wypeth also away your other objection of two ascensions For that name was neuer yet giuen to a man in respect of the soule And therefore I will haue the goale though you stand in it You wring out of my examples of the whole race of mankind Campions bodie two absurdities The one that I hold no greater vnion betweene Christs soule and his bodie then al the men in the world The other that I holde the soule of Christ to bee mortall because I compare it to an integral part of Campions body Why M. Doctor haue you now you are Doctored forgot the olde speach of the Schooles when you were a generall Quae comparantur in vno non comparantur in omnibus Things cōpared in one thing are not like in all things You may bee like your Father and yet perhappes your Father coulde not wrangle in this matter like your selfe And the Cuckow singeth onelie in the spring like the Nightingall though in melodie and variety of notes there bee no likelie-hood at all An argument taken indefinitly from the manhood of Christ to his soule and his bodie parts thereof is no better then from the race of mankinde to euerie particular man or from the bodie of the traitour Campion to the parts thereof And yet if you regarde the vnion of the soule body or the immortality of the soule there is no more comparison then betweene your spirit and your Fathers if it was righter or the Cuckowes song and the Nightingals beeing far sweeter Lastlie you tel mee that I vtter a great error in these wordes the whole man Christ Indeede if I had said man the whole Christ I had perchance opened my head to this venew But now I am faster locked then that you can fasten anie blowes vpon mee with the best weapons in your armorie For seeing the worde of truth doeth call Christ a man so manie times I am perswaded it wil not proue so foule an errour to cal the whole man Christ except you can proue that some part of him was Christ and not the whole The testimonie of Athanasius to confute this errour toucheth not mee The conclusion out of Irenaeus though it might haue a favourable construction I leaue it amongst the judgements of men which you haue promised not to trust sect 3. HVME Sect. 12. NOwe let vs come to the great bulwark of your defense which you made choise of to raze the whole worke vpon I meane to bee the text of your sermon It is written in the first of Pet 3. That Christ was put to death in the flesh and was quickened in the spirit By the which spirit he went and preached to the spirites that are in prison and were disobedients in the dayes of Noah c Heere Beza whome we follow because he commeth nearest to the true sense of the Apostle by this word Spirit doth giue vs to vnderstand the Deity of Christ following Iohn who called God a Spirit and by this word flesh his māhood containing both his body and soule as hee findeth it vsed of Paule God was made manifest in the fleshe Which Antithesis of the divine and humane nature Paule doeth also expresse in the same wordes which was made of the seede of Dauid according to the fleshe and declared mightelie to bee the sonne of God according to the Spirit Where you see that he vseth the words no otherwise then he findeth them vsed in the Scriptures Now that this cānot be the sense of them you reason thus First say you this Participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth signifie some motion from some place can by no meanes agree with the diuine essence which beeing at one time in all places cānot at anie time leaue any place To this I answere that it is spoken of the same spirit in the 18. of Gen. I will go downe and see whether the Sodomites haue done according to the crie that is come vnto mee And in Exod. 3. I am come to deliuer them out of the hands of the Aegyptians You can not bee ignorant M. Hill that the spirit of God speketh so manie times of the Deity by a figure called Anthropopatheia when God doth declare his presence in one place more thē in another by some notable effect Which in this place was most necessary to note vnto vs the cōtinual presence of Christ in his church departing as it were from all other places which indeede hee cannot and sitting in it as it were a continual ruler and moderator therof Next you alledge the other participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is quickened that because it is a passiue it can not stand with the Deitie which cannot suffer at al. This we denie not For we attribute not this participle to the Deitie but to the whole Christ God and man Neither doth the text say that the spirit was quickned but that Christ was quickened in the Spirit Thirdlie you tel mee that mortified and quickened are contraries both attributed to Christ at once to note vnto vs that he was both dead and aliue at one instant Heere we confesse that they be attributed to one Christ but why they shold be referred to one time wee see no reason to induce vs to think it To this
end you ad that the Apostle doth shewe vs how he was dead and how he was aliue by adding dead flesh and quickened spirit The verie text as I take it will denie you this for it hath not that the spirit was quickened and the fleshe killed but that Christ was killed in the fleshe and quickened in the spirit which is all one as if he had said that the suffered death as he was man and ouercame death as he was God And this Paull doeth speake in other wordes that he was crucified in his infirmities yet liveth he through the power of God Fourthlie you say that the Scripture doeth joine this his going and preaching close to his passion As if it had said As soon as he had suffered he went and preached This as if includeth no necessarie matter We expect demonstration and wil not be caried with as and if Fiftlie you argue out of the 6. of Genesis that the preaching of Noah is attributed to the third person of the Deitie and not to the second The wordes be these My Spirit shall not alwaies striue with man because he is but flesh Which wordes fewe or rather no interpreters that euer I saw expound as you doe of the third person of the Deitie Tremelius and Iunins whose great panies learning and judgement all sinceare hearts do reuerence expound them thus I will not long dispute with my self saieth the Lorde what to doe with these men for my sentence shall stand that except they spedelie repent I wil destroy them Neither maketh it much against vs though it were as you would haue it For seeing the actions of the Deitie are cōmon to all the three persons he erreth not that giueth thē to any of the three So doth the scripturs in many places attribute the resurrectiō of Christ sometimes to the Father somtimes to the sonne and sometimes to the Spirit of sanctification And Christ himselfe telleth vs that whatsoeuer the Father doth the same he doeth also After this you object that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is disobedient some-time doth separate the time of their disobedience and his preaching But heere I must put you in minde that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is went disobedient preached be all of one tense in the Greeke and must needes be referred to one time so that hee went and preached to them euen then when they were disobedient And this the word disobedient doth confirme For to whome I pray you were they disobedient but to the spirit that preached to them As for the adverbe sometime it is not set heere to separate words of one time but to distinguish the time of their inprisonment which was present from the daies of their rebellion which was past in the dayes of Noah when the long patiēce of the Lord exspected their amendement Whereas you argue that this cannot bee spoken of Noah his preaching because he preached to men and not to Spirits I am perswaded that no man can preache to men and not to their Spirites because hee that teacheth a man instructeth his Spirit which is his reasonable soule And yet heere you may marke if it please you that there be two things heere spoken of preching prison the on pertayning to these spirits when they were men with spirits the other now that they are onelie spirits and that therfore the Apostle did discreetlie choose the name spirit which is common to both these tymes Lastlie you charge this construction with violēce for that we take the word spirit in one place for the Deitie of Christ and streight way againe for the spirits of men in prison I hope you will not denie but that the word is vsuall in both significations that it is no wrong to giue words their own significations when the drifts and circumstances of the place doth requyre them Hitherto I haue dealt with your objections against Beza Nowe I will proue with vnfallible reasons that your sense cannot stand with this text You take the word flesh onlie for the bodie of Christ which died and was buried and the word spirit for his humane soule which you beare vs in hand did descend into hell and did preach there to the soules that had ben disobedient and rebellious in the dayes of Noab If this your conceit shall go for current that which the Apostle speaketh heere of Christ may be verified as well of anie other man For when we die our soules die no more then his did But let vs look a little nearer the matter The spirit heere as it appeareth by the text doeth signifie that which gaue life to that that was dead That I trust was not his humane soule but his deuine and heauenlie spirit Thirdlie in this Participle mortified is comprised death which giuen to Christ is neuer taken in al the Scriptures for the temporal death of his bodie onlie but whatsoeuer Christ suffered either in soule or bodie for the redemption of our soules and our bodies doth compryse his whole passion Which if it bee true then the word flesh must be the whole subject of all this passion that is both his soule and body or the whole man Christ For hee suffered as well in soule for our soules as in bodie for our bodies or else he had beene but half a Redeemer Fourthlie seeing his bodie was quickned that is restored from the graue as well as his soule from hell If you take spirit heer for his humane soule then shal you confound those things that the Apostle doth distinguish attributing that to the soule alone which is commō both to the soule and the bodie Fiftlie seing quikned is to receaue life either which it neuer had or els had lost the soule cannot be said to be quickned because it neuer lost life after that it once liued with the bodie Heere you tell vs that quickened is to be deliuered from miseries and sorrowes Howe the English word may be taken I leaue it to the discretion of the discreete and indifferent reader But sure I am it will proue a hard thing to finde that signification either in the Latine word viuificari or the greeke word Zoopoteisthas which bee so mixed with life that if they signifie deliuerie from miseries then life it self must signifie miseries and sorrowes which though they follow on it are neuer signified by it If this deuise may stand you wil ouerthrow the Antithesis betweene dead and quickened For if quickned doth not signifie a restitution to life what contrariety hath it with mortefied or dead which signifieth the extinguishing of life Sixtlie spirit doeth heere signifie that which was free from death and the violence of his enemies This I hope you will not say was his humane soule wherein hee suffered the death of the soule that is the torments of Hell as well as in bodie the death of the bodie Seuinthlie the soule of Christ could not
preach beeing destitute of a tongue mouth and other organes of necessitie required in that action Eightlie to what end shuld Christ preach to those damned soules who were past the frute of his preaching that which you say that he went to reproue them is not liklie For meÌ„ are reproued either for amendement or to take away excuses which to these was needlesse beeing past all remedie and excuse Ninthlie this preaching was then when their dis-obedience was reform-able which was in the dayes of Noah and neuer since Add to these if it please you that moste infallible reason of Bezaes taken from the drift and scope of the text to whose notes I referre you being not able to handle it so well as hee hath done it himself HIL his Reply HEere you play the Captaine and will beate down bulwarks and therefore you should haue these 4. properties in you vertue knowledge authority and felicity for the first two they are in you God grant you vse theÌ„ to his glory but what authority you haue to interpret the word I know not therefore in this case I hope you shall haue no felicitie Where you say that this word spirit doth signifie the deity and this word flesh the humanity of Christ and that there is an antithesis betwene the diuine humane nature I confesse y â— spirit some time doeth signifie the Godhead and fleshe the humanity of Christ But they doo not so signifie in this place as I proue by the circumstances of the text and the woords them selues For where you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 killed or put to death doth signifie the whole passion of Christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth the resurrection of Christ that can note be for of the passion of Christ is mention made before in the same 18. verse Christ suffered for vs the just for the vnjust to bring vs to God Now after his sufferings ended as Peter saith he was both killed and made aliue Now of his resurrection is mention made in the 21. verse as of his ascention in the 22. verse Therfore seeing the sufferings of Christ are mentioned before and his resurrection is namelye set downe after whereof can these words he vnderstood but of the seperation of the body and the soule and of the state of them during their seperation for an antithesis as you know is of contrary or diuers things as in this place you see in killed and quickned now how both these were true at on time S. Peter doth shew for at the same time he was dead as concerning his body he was aliue in spirit that is in soule for the soule seperate from the body is aptly called a spirite Eccle. 12. 7. And dust returne to earth as it was and the spirite returne to God that gaue it So is it taken Heb. 12. 23. Act. 7. 49. and so doth this woord signifie in this place for Christ was not killed both in body and soule but only in body and in flesh for if the soule of Christ had bene killed then had it bene mortall Therefore Athanasius Epiphanius and all the Fathers which did confute the Heretiques called Damoerite and Appolinaris which denyed Christ to haue a soule do coÌ„fute them by this place prouing that his spirite was among the spirits that his soule seperate from his body was among the soules seperate from their bodies This interpretation you see is gathered out of Gods woord is made more manifest by the wordes following 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we translate In which sprite he went and preached to the spirits in prison First you translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which But in the 1. pet 16 you do not so translate it nor in the 2. Chap. and 12. ver the same woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are Eph. 1. 13. 2. 22. 5. 18. and so could I cite at the least an hundreth texts in the new Testament where if you translat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which or by whome you shall ouerthrow the meaning of the holy ghost The next word construing is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wâ—ich as I haue saide before so I auouche still is spoken noâ— of the deity neuer in all the Scriptures and therefore must needes be spoken of the soul of Christ To conâ—ute this you alleadg Gen. 18. 21. Exod. 3. 8. First I must tell you these bookes were written in the Hebrewe tong and not in the Ereâ—ke I craued an instant out of the new Testament Secondly in those places that you haue named y â— interpreters do traÌ„slate Iarad by y â— greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And this I proue Iohn 16. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For if I shall not depart the comforter wil not come vnto you but if I shal depart I will send him vnto you Heere you see when he speketh of the descending of the deity he vseth y â— word 368 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but when he speaketh of the humanitie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And in the same chapter verse the 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I came out from the Father and cam into the world againe I leaue the world and goe to my father And this proprietie of speach which the holy ghost vseth ought to be obserued I confesse the scriptures vseth the figure Anthropopatheia but when God is said to come downe there is vsed the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or some one of the forenamed and when mention is made of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is alwaies spoken of the humanitie as it is to be seen Luk. 4. 30. 9. 51. 52. 56. 57. Luk. 13. 22. Ioh. 8. 1. And in this place of Peter the last verse is vsed the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He went vp into heauen Therfore if you can quote but one text in the new Testament that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is figuratiuely applied to the deitie your interpretation may seeme tolerable but if yon can not as I knowe it is impossible then can you neuer proue your interpretation to be agreaeble to faith because it is not agreable to y â— word Out of the next word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this I note he that was killed and quickned did preach but Christ was killed and quickned ergo Christ not the deitie preched He preched not vocally for he was killed ergo he preached really in soule for here is noted First who preached Christ To whom to the spirits Where in hell When after his death and before his resurrection This is the order of Peter and of our Creede which cannot bee by man ouerthrowen The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
suffered a violent death For thanatotheis being deriued of thanateo must needs signifie put to death Now I hope you wil not say Christ was put to deth in soul body but in body only And wher you say that Christ suffered in soule aswell as in body that is true that is gathered not of thanatotheis y â— is killed but out of these words antecedent for Christ suffered the iust for the vniust No reasonable man but hee will say that the sufferings of Christ are comprised rather in the word suffered then in y â— word killed To your fourth reason I reply that Christ was raysed from the dead but it is specially signified in the word resurrection ver 21. therfore I do not confound those things that are distinguished but your selfe for you make suffered and killed all one and quickned and the resurrection all one and so mak not only a confusion but a tautology and needelesse repetition which neuer was read in the word of God To your fift argument where you say zoopoiâ—isthai is to receaue life I confesâ—e it is to be made aliue Then you vrge it can not be spoken of y â— soule which neuer lost life Then by y â— same reason more strongly it can not be spoken of the Godhead which hath doth shal liue for euer for God caÌ„ not receaue life but y â— soule is said to liue when he is out of the body not because he liued not before but because y â— body doth hinder y â— actions of the soule Iohn 11. 25. He that beleeueth in mee though he were dead yet shall he liue Sap. 9 15. The corruptible body is heavie vnto the soule the earthie mansion keepeth downe the minde that is full of cares 2. Cor. 4 16. Therfore we faint not but though our outward man perish yet our inward man is dayly renewed Heere Paul sayth the weaker the body is y â— stronger is his soule therefore the death of the body is the life of the soule To drawe to ane ende your Antithesis of the Deuinitie humanitie is answered before For your Antithesis must be of things contrary or at the least diuers and seperate but as you affirme truly the Godhead was never seperated from the humanitie therefore this antithesis is of the body and soule which at this time were deuided and not betweene the deity and humanitie which were alwaies vnited wherfore this bulwarke I can assure you will stand and you haue ouershot both it your self in attempting to ouerthrow it For the very scope of the Apostle is this all Christians must suffer afflictions for well doing for Christ did not only suffer both in body and soule but also was put to a shamefull death in his body and in his soule went downe to the soules in hell which were vnbeleeuers in the dayes of Noah but Christ did arise againe from hel and the graue and ascended both in body soule to heauen therfore shal you that suffer for wel doing be deliuered from death and hel by his merits and goe vp into heauen and be partakers of his glory as you haue ben partakers of his affliction Moreouer as you referre mee to reade Bezas greate notes one this text so I pray you to reade Aretius handling this place whose words ar these Generally sayth Aretius Pet. repeateth three effectes of Christs death if you marke it wel The first pertaineth to the damned The second to the elect The third the person of Christ The first was declared in his descending in to hell The second in his resurrection The third in his ascention into heauen This is the true and naturall meaning of this place which wee will follow leauing the intrications of other interpretations I willinglye confesse this place is very hard for Augustine doubteth of it Luther douteth of it how it is to bee vnderstoode but this obscurity aryseth not of the place but of the varietie of interpretations If thou marke the plainnesse of the place the matter will be easye but that pleaseth not all men therefore that euery on may establish his owne sence they apply the words of the Apostle Peter to their owne conceit But leauing these let vs imbrace that which the words do teach vs in the which if we attaine to the truth it is well if not yet they shall bee probable because they haue warrant out of the scriptures and leane to the very letter to reto otherwise it is certain the knowledge of man to be vnperfect in many questions of holie scripture of the which the Apostle doth warne vs 1. Corin. 15. For now wee knowe vnperfectlie I haue sayd here is declared three effects of Christs death which differ in time are set in order in the Creede The first effect is that Christ being dead denounced eternal paines to the wicked in hell The words of the Apostle are these In which spirite he went and preached to the spirits detained in prison I take the place simply of the descence into hell for so the words do plainly sound and I see al the Fathers so to interpret them Augustine Epist 99. and Ciprian doth manifestly interpret this place of the descending into Hel. Neither doth the word prison hinder this Interpretation which in the Apocal. 20. 5. is taken for hel When a thousand yeers shal be fulfilled Satan shall be losed out of his prison Therefore the prison that Peter heere speaketh of is the place deputed to the damned Hyther came Christ as we confes in the Creede He went downe into Hell where Hell is it is a foolish curious question to enquire sith no man coÌ„ming to that place euer returned but only Christ Furthermore what Christ did there Peter expresseth he preached to the spirits that is he declared that he shewd himselfe manifestly to the world and made that dire and mornefull sermon namely to y â— wicked that the mirit of his death did nothing pertaine vnto them but by his presence were confirmed those punishments of the which Noah and other prophets had forwarned them And the tyme of this Preaching I referre not to the tymes of Noah but to the tyme of hys descending into Hell Wherevnto agreeth the worde pneumasi that is spirits for hee preached to the spirits that is to dead and not to liuing men Thus sarre Aretius I could heere alleage many other newe Writers whiche are of my iudgement but because you yeelde them no credite therefore of purpose I will omit them HVME his Reioynder to the 12. sect THis berrie is so confused that I can not finde where to enter my firret First I prooued that Beza whome we follow in this place doth no violence to the wordes but vseth them as hee findeth them vsed by Iohn Paull and Peter Which foundation beeing laide I answere your
10. reasons and put other 10. to the other scale to counter-weigh them You neither defend your owne nor answere mine in order as they ly But like a mad Dog snatch heere one and there another and let them goe that you cannot bite I cannot follow your steppes they be so crooked Wherefore I will walke on my first steppes and seeke your answeres where I can finde them That which I say of the vse of the words you confesse and diuers of my reasons you slip without an answere The first of my reasons was from these wordes mortified in the flesh and quickened in the Spirit Thus If flesh heere doth signifie the body and spirit the humane soule then nothing in these words is spokeÌ„ of Christ that may not be verified of other men But in these words some singular matter is attributed to Christ that other men are not capable of For we cannot say that Augustine Ierome or Cyprian are mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirit in that sense as it is heere spoken of Christ Ergo flesh is not the bodie and spirit the humane soule of Christ That which you answere of his desceÌ„ding into Hell and returning thence is not comprised in these words wheron my argument is builded though you gaue them your owne liverie and cloathed them in your owne cullours The second was this The Spirit heer doth signifie that which gaue life to that which was dead But the humane soul gaue not life to that that was dead Ergo the spirit doth not signifie the humane soule Heere you denie the maior and alleadge against the 〈…〉 which you call ours and should bee yours as well as ours if you and others of 〈…〉 highlie 〈…〉 in the flesh and 〈…〉 mortified as hee was man and quickened as hee was God by himselfe According to that of Iohn I haue power to lay downe my life and I haue power to take it vp againe Take your note of in and by and make a wheele-barrow of it But you moue me heere another question of some importance and craue an instance if I can in all the Scripture Howe one word in one period can carie two significations You are not I hope so verie an novice in Gods booke as you make your selfe Haue you not read Let the dead burie their dead Or labour not for the meat that perisheth but the meate that lasteth c. Or Who so will saue his life shall lose it Or Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it Or God is a spirit and will be worshipped in spirit wher you haue the same word in both significations O howe you would be-slouen mee if you could finde such a hole in my hose Now I feare nothing but that you craued an instance out of the olde Testament The third was If death whensoeuer it is attributed to Christ in the Scriptures compriseth the whole passion the fleshe in this text must be the subject of the whole passion that is the whole manhoode of Christ But deth is neuer attributed to christ but for the whol passioÌ„ Ergo flesh must be the subject of the passion that is the whole manhood of Christ Heer you denie the minor and like a skilfull Logician giue instance in the questioÌ„ If you haue not forgot your olde logicke the argument and the thing argued should not be one You supplie the imperfection of this answere with two arguments 〈…〉 that death in this place cannot signifie the passion 〈…〉 Your first reson is that the passion is mentioned before in the word suffred Be it so Yet it may bee repeated in more speciall tearmes By your reason in the beleef where a repetition is lesse tollerable crucified and died belong not to the passion because they are expressed before in the word suffered Suffering which may be in torturing whipping and imprisonment is too slacke a tearme to expresse the hellish tormentes of Christs passion The other is if mortified pertaine to the soule and bodie it will followe that the soule is also mortall You tell mee out of Athanasius in the reply to my fift section that by the double punishment inflicted on Adam the soule should die the death And I heard you preach in our Ladie Church at Sarum That when it was saide to Adam thou shalt die the death the meaning was he should die the death of soule and bodie Now if you wil apply these two significations of death to Christ the one to the bodie and the other to the soule I hope this objection wil neither scratch nor byte My fourth reason was this In this Antithesis mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirite morfied belongeth not to the spirit nor quickened to the fleshe but mortified belongs to the soule for it died the death of the soule and quickened to the 〈◊〉 for it receaued life againe Ergo flesh is not the bodie onlie and spirit the humane soule To this you answere that Christ was raised from the dead and that was signified in the word resurrection vers 21. and therefore you do not confound these distinguished things antitheticallie opposed But wee that make mortâ—â—ed suffered quickned resurrection all one How this may answere mee I leaue it to the â—ead that bred it to explane But you do vs wroÌ„g we make not mortified suffered one c. Suffered and quickned ar tearms more general mortified raised againe more speciall expressing things more plainlie and particularie which were touched before more covertâ—â— and generallie My fift reason was To be quickened is to receaue life which the thing that is quickened either neuer had or els had loste But the soule had life in the bodie and neuer 〈◊〉 after Ergo the soule cannot bee quickened To this you answere nothing but tell vs by the same reason it can much lesse pertaine to the Deitie Thus thinking to wound vs with our owne weapon you strike short and with the back drawe blood at your owne brow I told you in my answere to your second objection that quickened is not heer attributed to the Deitie but to the whole Christ by the participatioÌ„ of proprieties How can you excuse your self heere of wilfull falsification But you mend the matter with a more sufficieÌ„t answere out of Ioh. That the soule of the beleeuer liueth though hee were dead What then Iohn telleth not your tale that the soule of the beleeuer is quickened when hee is dead That it liueth is not the question The burden of the bodie which you alledge out of the book of Wisd loadeth the soule but killeth it not And therfore when it is deliuered of that load it is not quickened but releeued And the renewing of the inward man which you alleadge from Paule quickneth not the soule being dead but addeth courage and comfort to the living and languishing soule by Gods promises Heere I see you are quite thrust froÌ„ your hold at Chippenham that
participle ousi in that kind of phrase in Greek most necessarily alwaies implyed You reply not one worde to the purpose but charging vs with that we neuer spake nor thought that we take these spirits for the men in Noahs time you alleadge Christs words against vs Luk. 24. 39. But if you were a man that coulde marke the wordes of them that dispute against you take them as they are spoken you should finde that wee say not that hee preached to the spirites in the dayes of Noah But to the spirites that nowe are in prison and were disobedient in the dayes of Noah If you can anie waies turne Christs wordes in Luke to confute this you neede not to care what thinges you take vpon you to proue If you can proue that Noah preaching to the men of his time did not preach to their Spirites or that these spirits in prison which Peter speaketh heer of were not the same that rebelled in the dayes of Noah you may driue vs from this holde otherwise you may throw your cap at vs. Last of all you charge our construction with violence I answered that you do vs wrong charging vs with things that none of vs do speak Which answer you passe by with silence and so allow it for currant To these you haue added two new ones which to take away all scruple I will answere also First say you if the word phylake doth signifie hel then Christ did descend into hell But phylake doeth signifie Hell Ergo c. I denie the maior it will not follow though phylake doeth signifie hell as heere it doth indeed Metaphoricallie that therefore Christ descended into Hell neither doth the place that you quote of Math. proue that you would haue except you can proue also that phylake hath no other signification then the prison of vtter darknesse c. Your other reason is He that was killed dead and quickened did preach But it was Christ that was killed dead and quickned Ergo it was Christ that preached and not his Deitie Christ and not his Deitie M. Doctor Can Christ preach and not his Deitie You may say what you will If I had let fall such a word you would haue cried Crucifige But to answere you I denie the maior It is against the text He was mortified that is killed and dead in the fleshe and that preached not Hee was quickned in the spirite and in that hee went and preached That which preached was neither killed nor dead neither was it self quickened but Christ was quickened in it These are all your objections In my answere to your sermon I answered 10. of them You haue replyed to 6. of them and to the other 4. you haue giuen a pardon at large neuer to be troubled by you Your six replyes I haue heere rejoyned too and haue met your newe supplies at the encounter and haue sent them home to you for new help All your forces thus defeated and so mightie and resolute an armie against you if there bee anie conformitie in you if your neck be not so stiffe that no bridle can turn it I hope you will get you to Chippenhames pulpit and performe your promise HVME Sect. 13. THese things being thus I pray you good M. D. seeing you woulde haue vs vndoubtedly to beleeue that Christ descended into Hell Tel vs vndoutedly to what ende he should descend thither I trust you will not teach vs neither Augustine neither Ieromes lesson that he went thither to deliuer prisoners As for that new lesson that he went thither to triumph it standeth not with the maner of conquerours to shew the glorie of their conquest amongst the conquered but amongst them to whom the ioy of the victorie doth appertaine and for mine owne part I haue oftentimes read the name of Hell ioyned with shame and ignomie but to this day I neuer hard it ioyned with triumph and glorie Neither seemeth it probable that if Christ had purposed to shewe the pompe of his conquest he woulde haue done it before his resurrection lest being yet in the handes of his enemie he had meâ—t him with the proverbe Ante victoriam c. To these reasons may be added that seeing his triumph was celebrated at one instance in Heauen Earth and Hell if the presence of his soule was required as you beare in hand it will followe that his soule was at one instant in these three places which is contrary to the nature of a soule You adde two other causes to binde the deuill and deliuer vs from hel You bring vs many places of Scripture to confirme this geare Gen. 3. 15. The seed of the woman shal break the Serpents head Ose 13 15. O death I will be thy death O hell I wil be thy destructioÌ„ 1. Cor. 15. 55. O death where is thy sting O hell where iâ— thy victorie In all which places there is not a sillable sounding that Christ descended into hell As for his triumphing ouer Hell we neuer denied it and do avouch that he performed that moste gloriouslie by the power of his God-head which did present his victorie ouer his enemies hell and death both to heven earth and Hel without the presence of his soule HIL his Reply YOu aske me why Christ descended into hell and yet you coÌ„fes I noted three ends of Christs descending into hell the one to triumph ouer the Diuels the other to binde the Diuels and to take away their power ouer mankind the 3. to deliuer vs from hell There was also set downe a fourth end that is to manifest his death vnto those in hel and to reproue them of their incredulity and heer labouring to catch me in a snare you are fallen into it your selfe for firste you say Christ conquered hell on the Crosse then as hauing forgotten your selfe you aske this question with admiration Howe could he conquer being in the graue Is it likly that hee would triumph before his victory First you stoutly affirme that he had conquered then you boldly deny it CoÌ„neniet nnlli qui secuÌ„ dissidet ipse Next you say you haue not read the name of hell but ioyned with shame and infamie why do you write then that the Godhead did triumph ouer hel Did you not read your owne writing I am sure in this place 1. Cor. 15. 55. O death where is thy sting O hell where is thy victory The nam of hel is ioined with triumph But you answere these places with a flat negatiue heere is not a sillable to proue the descending of Christ into hell I am sure Paule proueth heer the resurrection of Christ and of our soules and how can he proue the resurrection vnlesse hee proue the knitting together of the body and soule for as death is the parting of body soule so resurrection is the reuniting of them togither againe and heer Paule
sheweth that the body comming out of the graue the soule from hell Christ did conquere both And therefore it is not the deity as you say but the humane nature of Christ y â— did vanquish death Hell Heb. 2. 14. For as much then as the children were partakers of flesh and bloud he also him selfe likewise took parte with them that hee might destroy through death him that had power of death that is the Diuil There fore Hemingius on the Col. 2. saith As on the Crosse he conflicted with the diuill so by the glorious descending into hell resurrection and ascention hee did triumph Therfore these places proue his descending into hell as well as the buriall for the reason of y â— apostle is this Christ cam out of the graue ergo he conquered death and Christ came out of hell ergo he ouer came hell Therefore thus I reason against you that did conquere which did fight but the human nature of Christ did fight ergo it did also conquere is gone vp into heauen to whom the Angels powers and mightes be subiect 1. Pet. 3. 22. Col. 2. 25. phil 2. 9. 10. Eph. 1. 20. 21. 22. Therefore sith all these Scriptures do witnes that Christ as man did triumph and is exalted and hath al power I doubt not but in your next answere you will reforme your iudgement HVME his Reioynder to the 13. sect I Beseech thee good Reader take a little paines heer to mark the honest dealing of this D. Whet I say Christ could not triumph beeing in the bonds of death hee for triumph sets conquer to make them contrarie to my former words that Christ did conquere Hell vpon the crosse It is one thing to coÌ„quere another thing to triumph Pompey conquered the mightie Mithridates in Syria but hee triumphed at Rome amongst his freends that were pertakers of the joy Againe where I say with Augustine that the name of Hell is joined with shame not with honour meaning the name of hell is shamefull not glorious he takes mee to say that the name of hell cannot stand in a sentence with a word of honour quotes against mee 1. Cor. 15 55. Hell where is thy victorie in which place hell and victorie are separated as if hee had saide Hell thou hast no victorie Thirdlie whereas I say that Christ triumphed by the power of his Deitie presenting his victorie to heauen earth and Hell he giues out that I say that the Godhead triumphed and not the humanitie notes in the margent Hume contrarie to Paule and Peter and wils mee to reforme this fault in my next reply This is M. D. arte If his cause were so good as he would haue it seeme he needed not this cunning or if he caried as honest a minde as he did protest in Chippenham pulpit hee would rather performe his promise then seeke such vn-christian-like shiftes to maintaine a bad cause Now to answere his cavils I ask you M. Doct. why you send Christ to hell notwithstanding the three ends that you had noted because those endes were no endes thereof and because the Scripture doeth teach that hee had performed all those ends by the conquest of Hel vpon this crosse You brought texts of Scripture to prooue them and I answered truely that not one of them soundeth anie sillable that way For in all those places there is not a letter neither of his descending into hell nor of his triumphing ouer hell You replie that those texts do proue the resurrection which is not true of all neither and that the resurrection is a knitting of the soule and bodie together and that the knitting of them together was by bringing his soule from Hell this is your principle and his bodie from the graue Now add the conclusion that hee that proueth Christs resurrection proueth his descending into hell If this reason bee good I will yeelde For now if it will holde you haue found a way to proue your opinion by all the Scriptures When Christ cured the blinde mans eies with spittle it is plaine that he was a man If he was a man he was mortall and died If hee died his soule went to hel this is your vndoubted principle and his bodie to the graue Ergo he that writes that Christ cured the blinde mans eies with spittle doeth write that hee went to Hell By this hooke you may pull all the Scriptures out at the window and make them proue what pleaseth you HVME his 14. Sect. YOu alledge for confirmation of the second How can a man enter into a strong mans house and spoyle his goodes except first hee binde the strong man Here is not that which you vndertooke to prooue that he descended into hell to binde the deuilles This house whereof here is spoken is to any man of judgments eye by circumstance of the place not Hell but this worlde whereof the deuill had taken possession and polluted many hearts out of the which he was cast by Christ who thereby prooueth himselfe to be stronger then he and not to woorke myracles in the name of Beel-zebub as the Pharises did beare the simple people in hand HIL his Reply YOur interpretation is true and the other true also for Christ did not onlie ouercome the Diuell in y â— world but also in Hell For as Cyrill noteth on this place there was before the comming of Christ much violence taking away the flock of God and carrying them to his owne house wherefore before the comming of Christ the heathen and people of the worlde went into eternall death But Christ hath deliuered both their bodies froÌ„ the graue and their soules from Hell by his death and personall descending into Hell This place is alleadged by one Georgius Princeps Anhaltinus in his learned commentaries on the 16. Psalm which you may read if you please For as Dauid trampled on the face of Goliah so did the soule of Christ trample on Satan in hell and trode on his face and this is noted by the Prophetesse Sibilla as also by the â—eathen Poets whose wordes I haue set down in my sermon at large And therefore Clenard in his grammer giueth this obseruation katelthonta eis adou id est eis otkian tou adou he went down into hell that is into the house of Hell HVME his Reioynder to the 14. Sect. YOu graunt my interpretation to bee true but I will not graunt yours except you bring better warrant then your self and a man that I neuer sawe You will mee to buy him I am not so well purst as to buy him onlie to see this that you quote him for my interpretation is defend-able without him It standeth so sure vpon the text that you confesse it your selfe You would faine shoulder in yours too and make the Scriptures double tongued but I haue learned that one text hath but one true meaning Though
this distinction refute the argument which is made of those that ar on your side who thus conclude Christ sayde on the crosse It is finished Ergo hee went not downe to to hell By the same reason I thus argue Christ said on y â— crosse It is finished Ergo he did not shed his bloud nor was buried nor rose againe nor ascended into heauen to fulfill all things Ephes 4. 10. for if all things were then fulfilled on the crosse what neede he to ascende to fulfill all things Therfore I did proue that this argumeÌ„t of yours did mak no more against the descending into hell then against the sheading of his bloud burial resurrection ascention or iudgement al which are necessary to our weale and perfit consummation Farther to proue my distinction to be true I did then quote that as Christ is said to be the Lamb slaine from the beginning of the world so the death of Christ did reach to the first beleeuers and shall do to the last Which consummation by hope is so enioyed as if wee possessed it already for all the promises of Christ are yea and Amen 2. Cor. 1. 20. Therfore I told you this argument It is finished ergo Christ went not down to hel was a fallacy a dicto secundum quid ad simpliciter And I noted how these words were to be vnderstod First that al the scripture and prophecies were fulfilled for so the text noteth Secondly it is finished doth signifye there is no other sacrifice for sinne for by one sacâ—ifice once offred he hath made perfite all that shall be sanctified Hebr. 10 14. And therefore the Papists ioyning y â— merits of Saints with the mirits of Christ doo erre moste shamefully Thirdly it was finished as concerning all his labours and sorrowes Fourthly al his suffrings both of body soule were ended which he finished on y â— crosse Briefly his obedience to his Father was ended for he yelded a pure perfit and perpettuall obedience to his Father and therfore had al power giuen him in heauen earth and hel Moreouer I did proue this interpretation by this text 1. Cor. 15. 54. Then shall be brought to pas the saying that is written ô death where is thy sting O hell where is thy victory and did alleage Beda Peter Martyr and Musculus vp on this place all which were of my iudgement and therefore you had noe more cause to wonder at mee then at these learned men whome all the reformed Churches of England doe reuerence Last of al you seeme to charge me as though I had sayd that Christ went downe to suffer which thing I neuer mentioned but that hee wente downe to manifest his death to triumph in his owne person ouer the Diuell and personally to redeme vs from hell Then you call them dunces whence I had that destinction I had it from Musculus and Musculus from the word of God therefore you must embrace these distinctions or else you will speake erroneouslie Omnia prohate quod bonum est tenete Try all things holde that which is best This work is worthy my wit or any other Interpreters Neither will I leaue the ware that is in my poore pack for all the treasures of Egypt An absurditie in the D. Reply That Christ beeing nailed handes and feete to the Crosse died without shedding of blood HVME his Reioynder to the 15. sect OVr opinion is that Christ vpon the Crosse did offer a perfect sacrifice for our sinnes and finish the whole worke of our redemption This we proue by his owne last words It is finished For after the manner of men who hauing brought their worke to the last stroake say they haue done withall make an end Hee hauing borne all the malice that death and Hell could inflict told the standers by that hee had done And this hee did immediatlie before hee gaue vp the ghost because hee could not as hee was man tell them the same after that he was dead Neither wanted this speach great reason It was to make full our hope and to confirme our faith which otherwise might haue stood in suspense For seeing our sinnes had deserued not onelie the temporall death which the beholders did see him die but also all the deathes of Hell which they nor no mortal eie could see him suffer He tolde them himself that hee had finished and done all that there might remaine no scruple for vs to doubt of Thus therefore wee reason against these men If Christ finished the whole worke of our Redemption vpon the crosse there remained nothing for him to do in hel But he did finishe the whole worke of our redemption vpon the Crosse Ergo there remained nothing for him to do in hell This Syllogisme is so strong that you dare not denie one syllable of it Wherfore when I hard you in the pulpit violate the text wheron it staÌ„deth I could not choose but tell you that you ranne beyond your selfe and made your audience feare least you would haue sent Christ to Hell to suffer an error indeede but such as some better divines then your self that sealed the truth with their blood to avoid the absurdities of your opinioÌ„ did fall into in King Edwards time when your opinion was most generallie embraced and confirmed by convocation Whereas you say that I say much and proue little I proue as much as I intend It was not my purpose to confute anie thing that you had spoken trulie For these words it is finished are not to be referred to the instant when they were spoken but to the end of his passion which immediatly followed This you confesse and why should I confute you Or which is stranger howe could you finde a contrarietie in my wordes and see none in your owne speaking the same that I doe But this is amongest much more worse then this the frute of your malice And heer in your sermon at Chippenham there was no more between vs but onlie that you made a countenance to confute that which we avouch you confes convaying your batterie in such sorte that you made the beholders thinke that you plaied vpon our sconce but in very deede did â—euell all your ordinance another way But now you are growne somewhat further from mee for though you confesse that Christ went not to hell to suffer and that he died immediatlie after he said It is finished yet you denie that this was the end of his worke Your reason is that hee had not shed his blood and that without shedding of blood there is no remission of sinnes And may wee beleeue you M. Doctor That Christ was nailed hands and feet to the crosse without shedding of his blood If you will haue vs so credulous as to thinke this may be true first resolue vs of what grief Christ died in not much more
might seeme to haue fled the brunt of your answere I am sorie that it fell out so For God is my witnesse I sought not mine own praise but did seek the truth Exâ—use my rashe enterprise in writing to you without anie acquaintance Let my loue of the truth which pricked mee for-warde and your challenge which set mee a worke excuse that fault if it was anie Far-well in the Lorde God giue vs al vnderstanding hearts Your freend though vnacquainted ALEXANDER HVME HIL his Reply Truth it is I did preach since a Leicock because I hard that M. Wisdome had set that opinion of yours abroche againe at Cosham I did heere also confirme mine Not because I am desirous to be contâ—tious but because I would haue no Christian man to doubt of the articles of his Faith you aske me what comforâ—able or necessarye matter you denye that wee doe preach I answere and I pray you consider oâ— it wee are borne in sinne how are we deliuered from sinne but by Christ which was conceiued by the holy Ghoste wee haue the magnitude of sinnes with Peter the multitude of sins with Mary Magdalen the turpitude of sins with the woman taken in adultery the infamy of sinnes with the Publican the diuturnity of sinnes with the theefe on the gallowes the cruelty of sinnes with paule and the recidiuation into sinnes with diuers of the Saints yet if wee repent wee are pardoned for Chrisâ—es sake who purely perfectly perpetualy obeyed the law of God By reason of our sins we ar subiect to al punishmeÌ„ts both corporal and spiritual and to the wrath of God All the punishments due to vs did Christ suffer vpon the crosse both in body and soul and therfore it is called his Passion He suffered in the Garden in Annas and Caiphas house in Pilats hal but vpon the crosse as you say truly he suffered the agonies of death tormenets of hell Further by reason of sin this was laide vpon the first Parentes Thou shalt die the death so by reason of this sentence not only the body was condemned to death but the soul to damnation To deliuer vs from these two punishments the soule of Christ went to hell and returned and the body of Christ that lay dead in the graue rose again mightily naturallye speedily and happely Beesides Christ rose in deede he gaue himselfe to be felte and handled herevpon wee are assured that he conquered death and hell He ascended into Heauen and therfore our praiers are hard when we pray vnto him and he giueth vs gifts for our ministry and so he shall come to iudgement at the last day to giue vs perfect blessednes You confess that Christ was borne in deede liued and fulfiled the law in the likenes of our flesh sinne excepted he dyed in deede he was buried in deede he rose and ascended in deede and yet you will not confesse that he personalye descended How can al these articles going before and comming after be vnderstode of the person of Christ and of his humanity not this Therefore you denying this personall descending of Christ into hell take away the greate comfort of our deliuerance from hell You say we are deliuered from hell by Christs death so are we too by his birth For if Christ had not bene borne he had not dyed so if there had not beene a seperation of the body and soule of Christ he could neuer haue conquered death or hell for by descending into the graue and that personally he conquered death hath deliuered vs from death by going downe into hell personallye he hath conquered hel And for this cause the scripture applieth it to the death of Christ because death was as Paul saith Phil. 3. A dissoluiton of body and soule And these 2. parts being dissolued Christ came from the graue and from hel and Christ did conquer both and triumph ouer them in him self as it is Col. 2. 15. These Jewes do aske asigne from heauen Math. 22 38. Luk. 11. 29. to whom Christ said A wicked and addulterous Generation doeth aske a signe but no signe shal be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the prophet for as Ionas was in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth three daies and three nights Which words Basilius Magnus interpreteth very wel These words a signe is a matter made manifest coÌ„teyning y â— declaration of some thing that was hidden as y â— signe of Ionas representeth y â— descending of Christ into hell and the resurrection of Christ and as Bede saith Rhab. also he gaue theÌ„ a sign but not from heauen because they were vnworthy to see it but from the depth of hel Therefore M. Hume this is a most comfortable doctrine that Christ doth deliuer vs from hell which albeit you agnise as well as wee yet because you deny the meanes where by it was purchased you deny a most comfortable doctrine for not only the body of Christ was in the heart of the earth but the son of man which signifieth the whole humanitye that is the soule and the body Ionas was in the whales belly aliue and yet came forth Christ was in the graue dead in flesh and aliue in hel and yet came forth Therefore to take away this maner of descending taketh away from the Church a singular comfort and openeth a gap to many errors confuted already by the Fathers For if Christ did conquer hel by the power of the Godhead only and not as he is a man what neede had he to take vpon him our nature but because as man he might be Lord not a heauen and the Angels but of the earth and of the inhabitants therof and of hell and the diuels You say the world is sory for me In the world saith Christ you shal haue affliction And he telleth me the world wil hate me I way not these things for I am noe man-pleaser nor lover of the world But if in my Sermon I had disagreed with Dauid Ezechiel Esay Peter Paule Christ himselfe 923 as you haue done in your an were I hope I should be both sory and ashamed Touching M. Chalfont whome you terme a man without iudgement and that he spake impudently and enuiously I neuer sawe him before that time and but once sence but by that speech and conference which I had with him I ford him to be learned and vâ—id of gail Such of his neighbours as I haue talked with did giue him y â— deserued praise of a learned and honest man And for asmuch as hee hath preached 926 sound doctrine in preaching the affirmatiue and that doctâ—in which is allowed by the learned conuocation of
heer your malice driving you to imagine much absurditie in our opinion doeth deceaue you For wee holde and will die for it that Christ in his owne person bodie and soule did descend into all the torments that hel could yeelde And this indeede is a true descending into Hell For the nature and name of Hell doth yeeld nothing but horrour terror treÌ„bling and torments But in your opinion we must imagine all things contrarie Not torments but triumph nor sorrowes but solace not shame and ignominie but honour and glory Hell doeth yeelde no such frutes nor the descending into hell can bee to no such ende Take therefore your potentiall decending into Hell and the conquest thereof by the onlie power of the Deitie and buy a benefice with it Whereas you say that our opinion doeth open a gap to manie errors you pretend a feare without grouÌ„d to make the Reader affraied of the moone-shade It is the manner of politick men that would faine hinder a thing that reason doeth further to set feare of sequels against the force of known reason Heer you flee to that shift though you know that amongest al the writers that haue embraced this opinion which be manie of great name not one yet can be tainted with one error growing in this fountaine In this section you hamper about another argument but cannot hit the marke Wherefore to saue your labour I will heere make it vp and breake the point of it when I haue done that you may see it cannot â—urt vs. It is this There is greater reason that Christ should haue beene held three daies of Hell without paine then three daies of the graue without corruption But hee was three dayes in the graue without corruption Ergo he was farre rather thre daies in Hell without paine Because it is not likelie that the weaker did fasten faster on him then the stronger beeing as far inferiour in malice as it is lesse in power To this I answere that there is not the like reason much lesse greater reason For hee lay three dayes in the graue to confirme our knowledge and to extinguishe all doubt of his death Secondlie to lay a grounded beleef in our hearts of the resurrection For he was the first frutes of the dead Thirdlie to make his resurrection more glorious For the loÌ„ger he was held in the bandes of death the greater glorie it was to breake them gathering strength by continuance Lastlie to take all blockes out of the path of faith that wee might walke in it more surelie without stumbling I knowe no such reasons why he should haue descended into the very place of hell being so farre remooued from our senses as we could receiue neither knowledge nor comfort therby Now whereas you take mee vp for saying that the world is sorrie for you my wordes might haue had a tollerable construction if you had cast an eie to Christs words in Iohn God so loued the worlde that hee gaue his onelie begotten Sonne for it or if you had lookt in my latine you should haue found my wordes lesse subject to violence Pij omnes dolent that is al the godlie are sorie sounding much to the same sense But you loue not the world you say nor the world loues not you I think you speake truelie iiij or v. benefices to them that you haue wold serue the turne to maintaine your skarlet hood and half a dosen of tall fellowes in tawnie coates to defend that with the sword which you cannot with the pen that is but a peece of the world But you loue not the world because it is not so liberall nor the world loues not you so becaus you haue more charges already theÌ„ you haue tongues to teach You coÌ„clude that I beeing a stranger muste not bee periergos and that Si pergam dicere quae volo audiam quae nolo These arguments were better in Queen Maries fierie daies for D. Storie then they are now in the calmes of Elizabeth for D. Hill You slander the learned convocation of the land and wrong good M. Nowell who as I heare disclaimeth your opinion As for mee I am a Christian and therefore no stranger in the Church of Christ I will not speake against my conscience for all the counsels and convocations in the world and all the Doctors in both the Vniuersisities if they were my aduersaries But God bee thanked it is not so I began with you in secrete you haue made it common Wherefore you are periergâ—s and not I. HIL his conclusion to M. Hume MAister Hume in the latter end of your answere you request mee to recant if your answere did please mee as it doth you I would be as willing to recant as you and your freends would be glade to heare it But I will plainelie set downe my reasons why I doe not recant The first is I alledged Act. 2 and proued out of Peters sermon my assertion and to the reasons I drew out of that place you haue answered nothing Secondlie I alledged Syra 17. 21. To proue that this phrase the nethermost parts of the earth doth signifie hell to this you haue in like manner saide nothing Thirdlie in all your answeres to my allegations you haue disagreed with the word of God In answering of the 16. Psal you say my allegation is to be vnderstood of the passion of Christ And Peter Act. 2. saith it is spoken of the resurrection whether is to bee beleeued of Peter or you I referre it to the indifferent Reader Then I proued that ERETS TACHTITH that is the nethermost partes of the earth did signifie hell out of the 63. Psalm and 9. verse In answering of this you dissent from David and M. Calvine Now whether it be more safe to sollowe Dauid or you let mine enemies iudge I alleadged Ezechiel to proue that point also 31. chapter 5. 16. 17. 18. 19. In answering to that place you haue gain-saide â—zechiel Esay in his 14. chapter Lavaterus Munster and Pellicane Now whether it be more fit for mee to beleeue you or Esay or Ezechiel let your owne favorites iudge Then I alleadged the known place of Peter you travailed much about this place yet in your interpretation of this word pneumasi that is spirits which you interprete the soules of the men that liued in Noahs time you contradict the words of our Saviour Luk 24 39. For Christ saieth a Spirit hath not fleshe and bones as you see me haue And yet you and your Maisters â—ay that this word spirit may signifie a maÌ„ living Now whether it bee more expedient for mee to beleeue you or Christ I referre it to your owne iudgement You â—aid my Sermon at Chippenhame did confirme you and your frends but I hope your owne answeres will not confute mee but your selfe and cause your self and them both to recanâ— you say you seeke to know he truth so do I as knoweth the knower of all hearts wherefore whether you or I
licet hoc certitudo est eum aliquot spiritibus praedicasse sed quot quibus videbimus in aeterna vita Here this man demeth that which he supposeth to be spoken heere to haue any other warrant in the word that it is not knowne to what spirits he preached contrary to our Doctor Pelicanus on this place Per spiritum intelligo spiritum sanctum datum Apostolis die Pentecostes per carcerem errores Idâ—lolatrias Gentium Iudaeorum Our Doctor by sâ—irit vnderstandeth the humaâ—e soule of Christ by the prison hell This man one of his owne authors vnderstandeth by spirit the holy Ghost and by the prison the errours wherein the soules of the Iewes and Gentiles were captâ—ued Thus thou maist see gentle Reader that these three places on vvhich M. Doctor buildeth his opinion his ovvne authors do interpret them some as vve do and some othervvaies than he himselfe can allovve vvherefore thou maiest vvell think that this is a vveake foundation to build thy faith vpon Novve I vvill note to thee hovve his ovvne authors that he calles his ovvne I meane do dissent from him and one from another on the very article it selfe First all his old vvriters send Christ to hel to deliuer the fathers and he to the hell of the damned vvhere the fathers never vvere and there fore no more of them Erasmus in Catechesi saith Ipsa inconcinnitas sermonis aâ—guit ab also quopâ—am intertextum Emblema paulo post An Thomas Aquinas addiderit subdubito Heere hee doubteth of the Artiâ—le it selfe and supposeth Thomas Aquinas to haue inserted it Et postea vetustissimi patres magna religione cavebant ne quid asseverarent duntaxatin symbolo quod non esset evidenter sacris literis vtriusque testamenti expressum Tales sunt omnes articuli hoc vno excepto Heere he denies it meaning the common sense of it to haue any sufficient warrant in the word Afterward gathering all the places of scripture that are alleadged by writers to confirme it he concludes Nihil istorum est quod tergiversatorem cogat credere Christi animam per se descendisse ad tartarum And againe in his multa sunt quae nihil habent ponderis sed nullum est quod non vel allegoriae nebulo sit obscuruâ— vel variam accipiat interpretationem Heere he denies the sufficiencie of all thâ— scriptures that this man and all that went before him alledgeth and yet this is one of his owne authâ—urs Petrus Martyr in symbolo saith Quantum ad animam ipsam attinet statim atque ex corpore excessit non mansit otiâ—sa sed descendit ad inseros quod nihil aliud indicat nisi quod eundem subijt statum quem reliquae animae à corpore sejunctae experiuntur Heere this man saith that to descend into hell is nothing else but to enter into that same state that other souls do when they are departed from the body which our Doctor denies and yet this is one of his Authors Felmus on the 16. Psalme saith Non est in Davide adimpletum quod hic canitur Anima enim ejus tandem ad inferos descendit vidit caro ejus foveam Heere this man taketh the name of hell for the common condition of al the dead which our Doctor denies yet this is one of his Authours Pomeranus on the 16. Psalme having expounded the name sheol of the state of the dead as I haue quoted before concludes Atque hic habes articulum illum fidei with many more wordes prooving that Christ hath wrought our deliverance by his death and not by descending into the hell of the damned And yet this is one of Master Doctors best Authours Westmerus in tropis in voce infernus pag. 832. saith Ad infernum descendere nihil aliud est quam pessum ire c. And after in the same page and page 833. ad infernum descendere est corpus sub terra recondi vnde cum Christus descendisse ad inferos adseritur in symbolo vere mortuus sepultus esse intelligitur Heere this man saith that Christs descending into hell is mâ—ant but of hic death and burial And yet this is one of M Doctors authours Luther and Latimer holdâ— that Christ suffered in hell the torments of hel as I haue quoted alreadie This our Doctor denies and yet these be two of his Authours Hipperius in his Catechisme gathering the summe of this part of our faith thus saith Primo dignatus est Christus se nostri causa humiliare nostram assumens naturam per omnia si excipiamus peccatum par nobis factus secundo pro nostris peccatis expiandis maximos cruciatus pertulit mortem ignominiosissimam Tertio quo donaremur iustitia à morte resurrexit quibus peractis pristinam accepit gloriam ascendit ad coelos Here this man shouldereth it quite out of his creed and yet this is one of Maister Doctorâ— Authours Lossius on the 16. Psalme saith Descendit ad inferos totus Christus sive filius Dei sicut idem conceptus est de spiritu sancto natus ex Maria Virgine crucifixus mâ—rtuus sepultus Hemingius in his Catechisme hath the like Christus descendit ad inferos vtrum anima an corpore scriptura non dicit sed Symbolum videtur innuere totum Christum descendisse Heere these two men say that Christ descended into hell body and soull our Doctor denies it and yet these be two of his Authours Vrbanus Rhegius in Catechismo saith Secundum animam descendit ad inferna ad pias animas Adami Noahi Lothi c. Heere this man saith that hee went into hell to the holy soules of Adam Noah and Loth. our Doctor saith they were not there and yet this is one of his Authours Aepinus on the 16. Psalme saith Quod autem Christus latronâ— dixit hodie eris mecum in Paradiso non abrogat fidem huic dogmati de descensu Christi ad inferos quia paradisus illa de qua loquitur Christus eo tempore apud inferos fuit nunc autem apud superoâ—â—â— coelâ— est Heere this man saith that Paradise was in hell before the comming of Christ our doctor saith no and yet this is one of his best Authours Lavaterus on Ezech 31. 18. saith hades apud Graecos generale vocabulum est tormentorum quietis This man saith and saith it trulie that the greeke name of hell is a common name both to the place of the torments of the wicked and the joyes of the faithfull our Doctor denies that and yet this is one of his cheefe Authours Alesius on the 19. of Iohn vpon these wordes Exiuit in locum qui Caluaria dicitur orationem repetit luciani presbiteri Antiocheni vbi haec habet Adhibebo vobis loci ipsius testimonium adstipulatur his ipse in Hyerosolimis locus Golgothana rupes sub patibuli onere disâ—â—pta Antrum quoque illud quod avulsis inferni Ianuis corpus
demum reddidit animatum quo purius inde ferretur ad coelum Here this man maketh the place where Christ was buried the mouth of hell meaning thereby the place of death our Doctor denies that and yet this is one of his Authors Aretius in the ninth of his common places fol. 31. Sed de illâ— non satis constat quamdiu apud inferos sit commoratus non diu vt apparet vt eadem die secundum animam ab inferis reversus gloriose Paradisum ingressus sit cum latrone Heere this man saith that Christ was not one day in hell M. Doctor saith that hee was there al the three daies that he lay in the graue and yet this is his chefest Authour Maister Nowell in his greater Catechisme saith Christum vt coâ—pore in terrae viscera Ita anima à corpore sepâ—rata ad inferos descendisse simulque etiam virtutis suae virtutem atque efficacitatem ad moâ—tuos atque inferos adeo ipsos ita penetrasse vt incredulorum animae acerbissimâ—m justissimamque infidelitatis suae daÌ„nationem â—pseque Satanas iâ—ferorum princeps tyrannidis suae tenebrarum potestatem omnem debâ—â—itatam fractam aâ—que ruina collapsâ—m â—ssâ— persentiret Contra vero mortui Christo dum vixerunt fidentes redemptionis suae â—pus jam peractum esse ejusq vim atque virtutem cum suavissima cerâ—â—ssimaque consolatione intelligeâ—ent atque perciperent Heere gentle Reader because Maister Doctor wrongeth this good man then whome the earth beareth not many and as I am perswaded 〈◊〉 any better I pray thee mark this place well for these are the onely wordes that M. Doctor challengeth in all his workes First thâ—u maâ—est obserue that he vseth the name inferi not for the damned onely but for al the dead because he saith that by Christs descending ad inferos both the wicked felt the justnes of their damnation and the godly the sweetnes of their salvation and so Christus descendit ad inferos is but Christ descended to the dead Secondly that he saith not that Christs soule descended into the hell of the damned as our Doctor doth but that his soul being severed from his body that is beeing departed this life he discended ad inferos that is was laid vp amongst them whose life was blotted out of the memory of the living Thirdly hee saith not that those to whome he descended saw him there personally but they felt and vnderstood the one their jâ—st damnation the other their sweet salvation together with his descending to the dead that is presently vpon the dissolution of his soule and body Wherefore great wrong hath our D. done this man to wâ—ing hiâ— words being somewhat obscure to a sense that he never meant and to brag of him as being the father of an opinion that I dare hope for he is yet aliue he doth disallow His opinion is amongst all the godly allowed to be true thâ—ugh not so wel fitting the article of the Creed but our D. opinion no man accepteth yet for trueth except it be himself and his favorities Thus I haue set down what jarring there is betweene this man and his authors Now I will shewe thee how he hath pulled some into this braul that never dealt in the matter to make his muster booke long ynough to feare mâ—n with naked names Robert Samuell in the boâ—ke of Martyrs making a confession of his faith when he comes to this point saith no more thaÌ„ the words of the beleefe which be meant as wel with vs as with him and him he quotes for one Lambeâ—t in the same book handling the question of the real presence quotes a place out of Aug. ad Dardanum to proue that Christ being corporally in heaven is not corporally in the Sacrament in which place being long Aug. amongst those things that Lambert quotes him for saith that Christ according to his soule was in the bottome of hel which if it be wel taken may be was devoured and swallowed vp of death but Lambert himselfe neither alloweth nor dissalloweth it as being a thing beside his question and yet hee is alleadged for one M. Fox writeth a litle Pamphlet intituled Christ triumphing be cause in it is displaied the greatnes of the battell the worthines of the victory the joye of the conquest The Printer for I think M. Fox neuer cared greatly what signe they hanged at his shop dore or if it was M. Fox himselfe all is one devised a picture to expresse the matter within the book A man with foure wound in his hands fect invested in a bright cloud with a glistering flame as it were of fame glory glimmering about his face standing with the one foot on the head of a Dragon and the other on the heart of death This picture M. Doctor tooke to be so sure an argument of Christs descending into hell that he not onely causeth to set it before his owne bâ—â—k likewise but also repeateth the name of M. Fox 4. times if not oftner as favouring his opinion hauing to my knowledge not one word in al his works and I am sure not one syllable in the book which he quotes of Christ triumphing saving that picture Thus gentle Reader I haue giuâ—n thee a vewe of 23. of M. Doctors Authors of whome some speake against him some differ from him some say nothing for him wherefore thou maiest conclude that it is but a painted cause that alleadgeth pictures for arguments there is not one of al the Authours that he masters so often that agreeth with him in all things concerning this opinion Cajetane a Cardinall of Rome writing vpon the place of Peter Iâ— he had not scarred at his popish name commeth neeâ—er him than any of these Vt ipse Christus mortificatus carne nam vere mortuus est secundum carnem viuificatus autem spiritu nam tunc cum mortuus erat viuificatus erat spiritu vt pote beatus secundum spiritum triumphans de daemonibus Here he hath his descending into hell his triumphing over the Deuils his being aliue when he was dead and his flesh for the body spirit for the humane soule Therefore good Reader let him follow Cajetan and follow thou the trueth FINIS The second consideration is better than the first The admitting of a man to a degree of schoole in Oxford is called a grace Synod Ed. Quemadmodum Christus pro nobis mortuus est sepultus ita est etiam credendus ad inferos descendisse Nam corpus vsque ad resurrectioneÌ„ in sepulchro iacuit spiritus ab illo emissus cum spiritibus qui in carcere siue in inferno detinebantur fuit illisque predicauit queadmodum testatur Petri locus Synod Eliz. principium tantum retinuit Quemadmodum Christus pro nobis mortuus est sepultus ita est etiam credendus ad inferos descendisse A true and godly opinion The Paralogismes in the D. reply 1 My argumeÌ„ts
betwise two if you rekon right 2 But not one against Aug. nor Ierome 3 These coÌ„clusions you neuer founde in my papers 4 These coÌ„clusions you neuer founde in my papers 5 make what you will my argument is not against new nor olde 6 This argument is not lyke mine 7 This conclusion wil noâ— follâ—w in my forme 8 The fallacie of your argument is not ab accidente but à non causa pro causa 9 This is wrong collected the reason is not from error to Augustine Ierome 10 To be a Father is an accident itâ—self and hath no substance 11 This is not the substance but the proper fact of Fathers 12 That is it that I woulde haue 13 thes places would help mee well if need requyred If my cause had waÌ„ted proofe I would haue bestowed a see on you 14 thes places would help mee well if need requyred If my cause had waÌ„ted proofe I would haue bestowed a see on you 15 thes places would help mee well if need requyred If my cause had waÌ„ted proofe I would haue bestowed a see on you 16 Then this makes for me that they wer but men 17 I see no reson in that 18 In these three places you beg the question 19 In these three places you beg the question 20 In these three places you beg the question 21 We holde the affirmatiue that hee descended in to hell as well as you 22 This ende is impertinét to this bodie If it were not to shew the reader how finely you can distinguish the voice of the Fathers But seing in their voice is so much drosse bring me I pray you no voice but Gods wherin is nothing but pure mettall Ier. 4. Ephes August ad Clodium The paralogismes of this sect 23 But I will denie and so will you that he weÌ„t to hell to deliuer theÌ„ 24 This is nor the question 25 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This is shufled on heere as Tailers vsed haire in olde time to stuffe hoses 26 We may as wel say that you change graue into hel Do not you confesse in the next sect that the originall doth signifie the one as well as the other is this changing Fie D. deale honestlie b hold there M. D. remeÌ„ber that hereafter I shall finde time to put you in minde of this againe 27 You mistake mee blindlie read againe 28 I spake onlie of Aug. Ier. read again 29 Though I might stand to this becaus they send Christ to hell wherein the Fathers were detained and you to the place of the damned yet this is not the thing that I said I onelie said neither August nor Ierome did send Christ to hell on your erand to triumph ther and cut-face those miserable wretches 30 This malice and your heare grew both in one grouÌ„d 31 Heer Ambrose faith not that which I deny 32 Let hel be heer taken for the condition of death and this place may haue a favorable construction 33 This place of Augustine saieth it not 34 This place of Fulgentius saith it not 35 If you haue no more in Mollerus for you then this he is neither for your hell nor your triumph 36 Before you hewe this block to fit your hand you must first perswade vs that the lowermost partes of the earth can be nothing els but hell 37 What will you gaine that begraÌ„ted 38 M. Foxe hath nothing in all that worke to help you but onlie the same picture in the beginning of his book which your printer hath set before yours Therefore you shoulde quote the printer you do M. Foxe wrong 39 You charg me vntruelie with vntruths therefore take ye the pig that bred the pig 40 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the descending into Hell cannot manifest his death Obscurius non illustrat obscurum 41 That he did by his death not by his descending into hell Epist ad Aglasiam quest 1. tom 3. Epist It is a wicked thing to say that Christ descended into hell or place of the damned The Paralogismes in the D. reply 42 I say that your tale and his ar not one He meaneth a place where the Fathers wer detained till Christes comming You meane the place of the damned where the fathers neuer were 43 His owne not yours 44 Doth the final end pertaine nothing to that which worketh for it this is new logick 45 Doubteth he not but that the Fathers were in hel 46 No more doth he in the place cited by me 47 You dream of mirth wheÌ„ saw ye me laugh at that sport 48 When you haue laid that before mee You shall see how honestly I wil demaine my self a In your written copy it is M. Caluin and mee why you haue turned it I remit to the reader 49 As he that builded a wal of sand on a sure rocke 50 This was not my argument 51 I cannot blame you 52 Peter and I speak not of one thing se the answere 53 Petersaith not that the hel wherein he was is spoken of the resurrection 54 That his soule was not left in hell sayeth Peter is spoken of his resurrection 55 Foolishe D. howe oft must I tell you that his being in hell is not spoken of his resurrection 56 He was glad of his resurrection not of his discending into hell 57 Read againe I saide not so I saide that he suffered the whole torments of hell on the crosse Of all his tormentes I spake not 58 It is inded as you tak the name of the crosse and you made it 59 You fight with your owne shadow 60 I said what I said and not what you thought 61 Now lay on lode you haue got the victorie 62 Or els you do faine look on my latine D. and blush for shame 63 was dauid a Christian 64 Can you say no worse 65 Said I so Is it all one to take a text as it seemeth most probable and to tak it after our pleasure when will you deale plainelie 66 This place might haue bene spared for anie thing that I haue saide 67 I am of the same minde Heerein Hillaries minde is no better then mine 1. Cor. 1. 18. Heb. 12. 2. Ephes 2. 16. Psal 22. 16. 18 The Paralâ—gismes in the D. reply 68 No more but som shew I warraÌ„t you 69 that future time is in voice not in sense 70 That is not my argument 71 We say he went not to hell at all 72 When you make the argument you may put what you wil in the conclusion 73 You beg the question 74 Wherfore M. Doctor Bring this therfore into mood and figure 75 This text is handled in the 8 section of purpose and is therefore heere an vntimelie frute 76 He is the same per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 77 This is new divinitie that Christ descended from heauen in soule and bodie 78 A fallacie ab accidente These must be effected after a wonderfull manner Ergo in soule and
that we hold that Christs onlie soule did judge the theef on the crosse and lastly that his only soule was in heaueÌ„ with the theef 163 Nor this place hath it not 164 And of the sonne of maÌ„ Mar. 2. 10. 165 I deny the argument 166 He saith not that with me doth signifie the Deity 167 Damascen commeth neerest you and yet he saith not that with me doth signifie the deitie his soule was not separated from his Deitie 168 They be Epithets not names saving the first neither be they 13. 169 A fallacie ab accidente 170 If so that proueth not that vvith me signifieth the god-head 171 I ask you how it caÌ„ go to heauen in the future time 172 Not so He is said to come downe when he sheweth his presence amoÌ„gst men by effectes he can not be said so to ascend 173 This is contrarie to your reason at Chippenham and in the 11. fol pag. b. of your printed sermon Ther you reason that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can not belong to the godhead because it signifieth motion And heere you giue God contrary motions both vp and down 174 August speaketh of the ascending of the humanity 175 This glosse on the theues prayer is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 177 I neuer meant such a gloss 178 That was not his praier see the text 179 This reason would wel confute the thefes prayer if it were coÌ„futable Remember mee when thou commest in thy kingdome 180 And had he not the presence of that as well as of the soule and bodie 181 This is a grosse reason In the presence of the Deitie is fulnesse of joy Ergo the theef praieth for the presence fellowship of the Deitie 182 This is another new conclusion 183 How proueth this that with mee in this text doth signifie onlie the God-head 184 This allegation is also impertinent Servants obey your maisters Thou shalt be this day with me is asmuch as thou shalt be with mee for euer Psal 90. 4. The greatest Hebricians of name in our time both Protestants Papists Mercerus Cevalerius Bertramus Vatablus Pagninus Arius Montanus Andradius with I know not how many more The paralogismes of this sect 185 No vntruth in my wordes 186 My wordes are contra doctissimos huius aetatis therfore turn this lie to your own secretary 187 Al these be not on your side 188 Luther holdeth that Christ suffered in Hell so do not you 189 Felinus is against you 190 So is Pomeranus 191 Molerus is your aduersarie 192 Peter Martyr holdeth that his soule presented it self to both the blessed and the damned 193 Hee maketh nothing for you 194 Nor Lambert 195 Nor Robert Sammell 196 Latimer holdeth with Luther not with you 197 Fox hath nothing for you but the Printers picture in the beginning of his booke 198 Nowell holdeth not with you 199 Manie of these vnderstood not the Hebrew therfore stood not for you vpon the word SHEOL a M. Allet I think you would say He wrot the poore mans Librarie for the poore not for Doctors 200 That convocation allowed Nowels Catechisme not your opinion 201 If he thinke so his thought is too true But yet a man may haue read more then you that neuer saw these bookes 202 I disabled none of them except you will beleeue your Secretary better then my selfe 203 This was my conclusion Men vse not to call the conclusion a lie before they answere the antecedent 204 You labour in vaine this is not denied 205 A sensles translation liketh you best 206 You wold haue said how can yee finde to point where aske where I can finde it is like him that said I payd 18. d. for my shoes read what they cost me 207 He reioiced because he should not be left in torments will that answere serue your turne 208 Who said so You fight with your owne shadow 209 Who would make conclusions father theÌ„ on his aduersarie but hee that wanteth both science to answere or conscience to acknowledg the truth 210 Al these lies doth blister on the lips of the blab that bred them 211 If that be not true why confute ye it not 212 You alledge my wordes to play vpon the vantage 213 I gain say him not 214 Nor say not that 215 The question is what the manner thereof should be This is petitio principij 216 And falshood in you to charge me with that I neuer spake 217 That is but your conceit I see no reason for it 218 Why not if they teache the truth 219 The byasle of this bowll did run on Tremelius and Iunius with the jutte of an ilfavored rub did break vpon others It is well that you feare to say that they disagree from Dauid Pet. Your heart faine woulde if your penne durst venture 220 You call my question curious by your answere proue it to want curiositie Such in consequencie follow your pen as close as your shadow your body 221 And did it return thence also as the words of the Psal doth proport before his burial 222 Know not you that it hath 3. significations as well as I. 223 Who but you did euer say that a soule could descend into Hel and not being left there return again before the buriall of the bodie 224 Heere you holde that Christs soule did descend before his buriall and in the order of the articles of the creede you make it an argument for you that it commeth after Thus you can turne your nose to euerie winde 225 Lo you will proue a thing that no man denieth 226 This therefore follows not on the premisses 227 228 Two vnfit allegations The question is whether Heâ— going before his burial is to be taken for the paines or place of Hel which thing Augustine heere toucheth not The paralogismes of this sect 228 I charged you not with immodestie read againe 229 These two vntruths wil proue not one 230 Is it an vntruth to tel your own tale in your owne wordes 231 Yet and you be remeÌ„bred translaâ—ing Lauater in the next sect you cal it a pit 232 You doe impudeÌ„tly or arrogantly take which you will misvse my words read againe 233. Heere ye settle your self to your olde trade to proue a thing not denied Your worke could not rise otherwise 234 This witnesse needed not 235 Helâ— may heere 〈…〉 the graâ—e 236 This witnes is superfluous 237 He saith not the thing he is brought to say that the lowermost parts of the earth is Hell and hel may also bee heere taken for the graue 238 This witnes might haue ben spared 239 He saith not that the lowermost parts of the earth are hell 240 This testimonie needed not 241 Nor â—his needed not 242 Hel heer may be taken for the graue so it is liklie seing it may be doubted of the place of the damned whether it be vnder the earth or no 243 Nor this witnesse needed
That must bee one whosoeuer be the other 328 A degree is an ascense from one step to another His conversing on the earth was no ascense and therfore no degree at all 329 This degree in the aire was not a step of his glorie for he neither fastned his seete nor made any abode there 330 You say much and prooue little 331 One ascension hath but one beginning calaed terminus a quo 332 That pertaineth to his burial not the descending that Paule speaketh of in this place 333 Not but such eies as yours 334 Patitio principij that is the place we stand vpon It maketh nothing for you except we will grant you your will without reason One motion hath but one beginning one ending Of contrarie motions if the mouer be one the beginning of the one is the end of the other and contrariwise the end of the one is the beginning of the other The paralogisâ—nes of this sect 335 That note is against your self read and see 336 That note sheweth this place to be spoken of them that giueth bread to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie c. 337 The verse you referre vs to in Math. speaketh of the mercifull not of the wicked 338 You are much deceaued 339 What synode is that I was neuer of anie synode nor worthie to rule a synode 340 Vntruth see the aunswere 341 Wordes 342 It is trew of all parts y â— can consiste after separatioÌ„ 343 But if you will proue the thing you vndertake to proue you must proue that wher the soule is not the maÌ„ is not 344 That followes not 345 Heer M. D. will correct magnificat It is in the English Bibles I am not yet ascended and that he thinks not to be of the praeter-perfect tense and therefore he mends it I haue not c. This had ben well found of a boy in his accidents but a D. shuld haue knowne that amatus sum is the preter-perfect time as well as amatus fui 346 I know no man saith so 347 Nor that and therfore these two are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 348 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 349 You had need of a cable to binde this therefore to the premisâ—es 350 It will not follow see the answere 351 I brought examples of my own general maximes I dallied not with your argumeÌ„t 352 I neuer thought it see the answere 353 It will neuer follow by this reason 354 That is a foule name 355 As good Logicians as D. Hill Ramus and al his followers thinke the soule to be an integrall parte Partes integrisunt partes integrales anima corpus sunt partes integri scili cet hominis Er go anima corpus sunt par â—es integrales hominis 356 I know nor what you mean by a divisible part If a part that may consist being deuided from the whole I hope you will confesse the soule to be such 357 This is a new terme of arte 358 Not so see the answere 359 No errour at all see the aunswere 360 The man alone you would say 361 This proof needed not 362 If you could follow the question all the proofes in this section should bend to make your assertion good that this saying of Christ to Marie Ioh. 20. doth proue that his soule had not beene in heauen when he was risen againe 363 Parergon 364 By this it appeareth that Irenaeus speakerh not of the hell of the damned but of the state of the dead Heer I follow Ramus 365 Such a word out of your mouth might haue lifted vp my hart if you had not said section the 7. that I wanted either science or conscience or both Howsoeuer your wordes agree I hope I was the same wheÌ„ you wrot that when you wrote this 366 Then I will tell you the same that all Christians haue to know God defend his truth The Paralogismes in the D. reply 367 If my coÌ„mission be warrantable this hope may hoppe 368 Heere you promise to proue 369 And heere you fall to confute so soone you haue forgot your self 370 You alter the conclusion I said that the Scriptures neuer giueth death to Christ but for his whole passion which thing you should confute if you could answere mee 371 Still you change the question though quickned went necessarilie before his resurrection I neuer said that it signifieth it 372 I brought reason for the things I said and you answere al with that cannot be 373 See the answere in the rejoynder 374 If you can proue that Peter said so I will proue that he was like an Irish man that comming out of a battell boasted that hee had killed fiue men in the feet that wanted the heads before he came at them 375 What then 376 Is there no thing els to apply these things to or is no repetition tollerable 377 How doth this for proue anie of these things that you haue said 378 Betwene these two * markes ther is a most disâ—rdeâ—ed hyperbalon of manie wordes not two lines together directed to one purpose 379 Peter sheweth not 380 This is foisted in the text 381 That proâ—veth not that spirit is the soule heere 382 You beg the question 383 He suffered the death of both You leaue the word of the text mortified and choses a word that taketh away the duble death which he suffered this is pelting with the text 384 True but who saith so 385 And wer all the soules separated from their bodies in the hell of the damned that he could not bee amongst such soules but in hell 386 Truelie I see it not 387 I see not that neither 388 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 implyerh the Participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cannot stand without it Wherfore if you had cast an eie that way you would haue translated it that nowe are in prison 389 You dream we translat it not by the which 390 And you did you wold lose your labour 391 You said thâ—t no verb of motion could be giveÌ„ to the Deitie fol. 11 pag. 2. That I hope you are gone from Now you haue no reason why this word caÌ„not pertaine to the Deitie but because it cannot pertaine to the Deitie which is as if a man would fay D. H. could not get a Bishoprick because D. H. coulde not get a Bishopricke 392 That is not of necessitie neither 393 Are they the fitter for that to speak improperlie of God 394 Why maÌ„ is the old testament Apocrypha with you you are a nice man 395 Katabaino and erchomaâ— be verbs of moâ—ioÌ„ as well as poreuomai 396 Eltho I neuer red nor you neither in the present tense 397 How can this place proue that Iohn translateth not IARAD heere 398. Eleutho is out of vse You shame your self 399 This place proueth your translating of IARAD as the other doth And heere you may mark that erchesâ—ai is spoken of the manhoodas well as poreuesthai and so by your reason erchesthai
cannot pertaine to the Dei tie more then poreuesthai 400 Proprietie of speach allace sillie man see the answer 401 A vaine dreame 402 Doth anie of these places affirme your assertion 403 I haue quoted 8. and could hâ—ue quoted 20. see the answere But with what face can you challenge a place of me that is so vsed when you caÌ„ bring neither reason nor place to the contrarie 404 wil it but seem tollerable when I haue done then it is better alreadie for now it is a known truth 405 Your knowledge was but a ges and I haue be guiled you 406 I haue proued it both agreable and necessary which I needed not I stand at defence It was your part to proue which you cannot do if you had 7. wits as good as your owne 407 Ware sheep that is against the text that wherein he was mortified preached not 408 Christ and not this Deitie If I had saide so you woulde haue exclaimed vpon ignorance 409 I hope the soule wherin you say he preached was not killed 410 I neuer heard a reall sermon without words 411 That is out of the text 412 So is that also petitio principij twise together 413 You beg the question againe 414 Where when and to whome said I so 415 It followes not 416 These scriptures proues it not 417 You dreame that is not mine 418 You fight with your own shadow 419 That â—ollowes not A man may say as well D. Hill is a wrangling spirit as he calleth his aduersaries phantasticall spirits fol. 24. of his sermon and yet both he and they haue bodies 420 you shuld hane left this to the boyes in Oxford it is heere a deformed patch 421 You do well to holde you in that corner but I hope you will refuse not the Canonical scripture for al this 422 Then I see it bootles to hope for your promise 423 A narrow shift 424 The thing is true your proof is naught like al the rest 425 Hand-somlie in good sadnesse D. you cannot tell howe to settle your self to proue anie thing 426 Blush for shame se the answere 427 Vpon your vnsure gesse he were mad then 428 First you say that they take prison fâ—r hell you conclude that they al alleâ—dge this place as you do your pen runnes at random 429 Their conscâ—ence I hope was bettâ—r then their warrant 430 You haue promised that once alreadie 431 It was neuer denied what needs a confession in a known case 432 Now for your credites sake tell me wher Pet. saith that hee was dead aliue at one time 433 For sham M. D. speake truth 434 A tautalogie 435 But not when he was dead 436 You will say that with Peter which Peter neuer said 437 This word expresseth not the Greeke thana totheis 438 And yet the whole maÌ„ may be mortified 439 See the answere 440 Not so but the spirits that now are in prison 441 And so it was but not in hell 442 How proue you that 443 The death and resurrection of Christ his preaching in the dayes of Noah ar heer mentioned obiter and as occasions led them in expresseth not the order when they were done If this reasoning be good the passion in the beginning of the 4 cap. following the ascension expressed in the last verse of the third 444 But most commonlie with a verbe 445 This is like salue Domine I am glade to see you wel M. D. begins wâ—th greek out of the new Testament and ends in latine out of the English accidents 446 Euerie aduerb affecteth not the word it standeth by 447 Put out that comma it is an vsurper 448 Nor separated from it 449 That promise is twise made now 450 I said that nothing is spoken of Christ in these words mortified in the flesh quickned in the spirit which may not c. 451 Did you not blushe to rack my wordes to the whâ—le discourse which are spoken but of one member 452 No forsooth 453 those be without my bounds 454 those be without my bounds 455 That is the forme giueth the forme to the 〈◊〉 456 Why mine more then yours 457 So say we 458 En is not in that verse at all expressed 459 You dreame 460 You promise to proue that en signifieth not by proue that dia signifieth by this is coÌ„mon with you a cunning point 461 You say it cannot bee so taken and would that answere seme probable 462 A flat negatiue for an instance 463 A tautologie 464 I haue said that this worde fitteth not the greek 465 A Passiue participle froÌ„ a verb actiue 466 Why so 467 But I will say he suffered death in soule and bodie 468 But why not 469 What reason should moue a reasonable man to denie that Christ suffered the death of the soule 470 This will not answere my reason 471 A confused negatiue of confusion Put your antecedents to this therfore if your skill can do so much 472 where M. D. theÌ„ were I worthie to we are a bable A rogue burned in the ear suffereth but is not killed 473 where M. D. theÌ„ were I worthie to we are a bable A rogue burned in the ear suffereth but is not killed 474 Vntruth D. the scripture vseth manie tautologies to help our memories and vnderstanding though this in mens writingâ— be a fault in scriptures it is most necessarie that one place may help another 475 This answere were somewhat if you could make it good that we giue this participle to the Deity 476 The question is whether the soule is quickened or made to liue when it is out of the bodie 477 Non causa pro causa 478 These places proue not the question 479 These places proue not the question 480 These places proue not the question 481 Paull saith not so heere 482 It followeth not 483 The Antithesis there expressed is between mortified and quickned 484 But diuerse but not alwaies separate 485 This therefore is builded on the wrong side of the way 486 You call it in your margent fortissimum argumentum but it is a starued shrimpe It cannot stand though it be not touched 487 Be sure that that be one 488 That is out of the way Christs going downe to hel is no persuasion for vs to suffer afflictions 489 But you make no dout but that hel is vnder the earth in your sermon fol. Aâ— pag. 2. in print 490 You should waste winde and break your promise 1. Reason Answere Reply 2. Reasoâ— Answers Reply Iohn 10. 18. Math. 8. 12. Ioh. 6. 27. Mar. 8. 33 Ioh. 8. 55. Ioh. 4. 24. 3. Reason 5. Reason Answere Mat. 26. 41. 6. Reason 7. Reason Answere Reply 8. Reason Answere Reply 9. Reason 10. Reason M. D. reasons confuted and his answere displayed Answere Reply Rejoynder 2. Objection Answere No reply no rejoinder 3. Object Answere 4. Objection Answere No reply no Rejoynder 5. Objection Answere No reply
enemies but also of the extreme daÌ„natioÌ„ of their soules This theÌ„ is my reply â—o your second reason these enemies were not priuate enemies but publick and did hate Dauid for his religion sake Dauid therefore by the gift of prophecie doth foretell that their soules should go to hell to be tormented and their bodies should be the portion of soxes that is shold never come to the graue for what need 163 Dauid tell vs they should by which we know is commoÌ„ to al or how can that be true which you say that they should bee in graue when Dauid himself saith they were not in any graue but were the protion of Foxes And so M. Caluin whom I hope you will beleeue teacheth you writing vpon this psalme and verse To be the portion of Foxes is as much as to be devoured and torn of wicked beasts for God saith Cal. doth threaten his punishement to the reprobate that they shall bee a pray to Wolues dogges because hee would depriue them of the honor of their graue Heer you see M. Caluin saith they cam not into their graue you say they did How M. Caluin and you may be reconciled I knowe not for Caluin addeth this reason It hapneth some time that we know the same temporall punishments to be common to the good and the bad but this is the difference the bones of the godlie are gathered together and kept in safty that none of them shall perish but the scattering of the bones of the reprobate is a signe of eternall destruction Therefore howe can the lower parts of the earth signifie the graue as you say since as M. Calvine truâ—ie saith they were in no graue Answere mee this good M. Hume plainelie Psal 63. 9. The lower partes of the earth signifie not the graue but hell Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth Eph. 4. 9. â—rgo Christ descended into hell Two impossibilities in the D. reply That Hell is infinite and that Hell is in the center of the earth Finitum non est capax inffniti That Hell and Heauen be both infinite Non sunt duo infinita HVME his Reioynder Whereas I charge you with immodesty you say you will charge me with vntruethes you are marueilous chollericke Good sir bee content you mistake my wordes I haue misvsed neither you nor your frends I onely saide speaking of the modester sorte that no divines alledge these words to proue that Hell is in the center of the earth which they might wel doe if ERETS TACHTITH did signifie Hell properly You haue not done well to trouble your friends to proue a thing not denied Here you call forth nine writers and crye shame on me for misvsing them If I were as chollericke as you I might take Pepper in the Nose and call you braâ—â—lesse for mistaking my words The meanest Carter in the plaine would neuer so haue ouerlasht himself by such shifts as this you haue made your booke importable If a man woulde peake out all such ware as this he woulde leaue you small store of stuffe to shew amongst your customers If you will runne this course you can neuer want wordes howsoeuer you shift for matter but if you mend not impertinent traish wil make men dispaire that euer you will be able to yarne a Bishopprick with your penne After all these out-cries you confesse that whiche I said and ad a reason because Hell is infinite Though your reason be not good yet your confession will purge me and staine your owne face with your own boxe That the lower-most partes of the earth must needs signifie Hell thus you argue Heauen is aboue and Hell is belowe Ergo the lower-most parts of the earth may be Hell This reason was taynted before it came at Whately-bridge and neuer came into Oxenforde amongst so many Noses able to smel such ware as farre as Bullington-greene without a peall of S. Clements Belles First you conclude not the question This question is not whether the lower-most partes of the earth may be Hell but whether ERETS TACHTITH be the proper name of Hell Secondly the place that you alledge out of the Proverbs all interpreters agree not vpon that sence of the wordes Lastly if a man shoulde reason Heauen is aboue and and Hell is be low Ergo Owkie hole is Hell you will laugh your selfe though partiallitie will not let you see the same stupiditie in your owne reason The first place that you alledge to Proue that ERETS TACHTITH must needes signifie Hell is out of the 63. psal They that seeke my soule shall goe downe into the lowermost parts of the earth Which place is so farr from prouing your conclusion necessarily that wher one interpretour that euer I saw doth interpret it of Hell three doth construe it of the graue which sence being agreeable to the rest of the Scriptures I viewing the whole bodie of the psalme and finding Dauid to speake onely of his owne private enemies and no inducementes to lead me to thinke that he speaketh here eyther in the person of Messias or of his bodie the Churche I gathered three reasons to disprooue your sence First that it were a presumption Secondly contrary to the mind of the godly to judg their own priuat enemies And lastly that the words following they shall fall vpon the edge of the sword can reach no further then to temporal death To the last of these you say nothing which of it self is strong ynough to cary this conclusion from you To the other two you oppose the 9. Psalme 18. where the Prophet speaketh of the wicked and the 109. psalm which containeth a prophecie of Christe vttered in the person of David Act. 1. 20. whiche places point besides the marke and proue not that Dauid doth Iudge his owne priuate enemies but the wicked and enemies of the Messias Wherfore though I scarsâ— trust these two last reasons yet till I here them taken away by reason I stand at my first marke stil that Dauid speaking heere of his owne privat enemies is of Iobs minde not reioycing at the destruction of them that hate him Iob. 31. 29. 30. And here M. D. I would haue you marke that though I had not on argumeÌ„t yet my sense beeing agreable to the wordes of the Psal and consonant to the scriptures is inough of it self to prove that youres is not the proper meaning of these words But say you this cannot be the graue because it followeth they shall be the porcion of Foxes that is they shall want the honour of the grave and there you set Calvine against mee saying that you see not how we may be reconciled togither For my part I care no more for Caluines fauour then Augustines and other godly mens that haue laboured fruitefully in the Lordes haruest whatsoeuer it pleaseth you to beare your reader in hand otherwais of me But if you had ben half so lerned as you think
was the end of his descending But his ascending was from this earth whereon we converse Ergo the end of this descending was onelie to this earth whereon we conuerse and not into hell as you gather out of this place My maior is proued by the second rule because the mouer is one Christ the motions contrarie ascending and descending The minor is proued Mark 16. 19. Luke 26. 51. Act. 1 9. by al the Symbols or summes of our faith by the cōmon consent of all Divines and the vsuall speach of all Christians that euer was or is To this you answere that the maior is vtterlie false because Christ saith Mat 12. 40. At Ionas was three dayes and three nights in the whales bellie so the sonne of man must be three dayes and three nights in the heart of the earth Indeede if the rule of nature were contrarie to this saying of Christ I shoulde sooner yeelde that nature might erre then the Lord of nature lie But Christ came neither to destroy the lawe giuen to his church nor to the rest of his creatures called the law of nature Wherefore this answere was not Doctor-like If you had looked well about you you might haue seene that his beeing three daies and three nights in the heart of the earth pertaineth to his buriall and not to his descending more then his rysing again out of the hart of the earth pertaineth to his ascension For these are foure distinct things His descending from heauen into his humane state his burial and laying vp in the heart of the earth after his death his resurrection and returning againe from the heart of the earth into the state he was separated from by death his ascending from the earth vp into heauen I drew also another reason from the first principle to prevēt an answere that his descending might haue beene first from heauen into his humane state and then out of his humane state into hell It was this if Christs descending from heauen did end in Hell then it culd not bee one motion being so manie yeares intermitted But it was but one motion Ergo it ended not in Hell To this you answere that I who charge you with cloudes of Sophistrie do raise such mistes of Sophistications that you cannot see in them what I mean by this one motion But there is not the cause That the Owle cānot see in the light the fault is not in the light but in the eie of the owle There is not a gnerall in Oxenford that had spent a moneth in reading Aristotles 5. and 6. bookes de natura that would not haue knowne this argument One descending is but one motion Paule speaketh heere but of one descension Ergo but of one motion Your degrees of humiliation are heere impertinent Howe properlie they are distinguished I referre it to the margent You tell mee in the beginning that my first reason was from the place of Iohn I came from my Father into the worlde c. Now sillie man I pitie your simplicitie That is no reason at all But seeing I was to apply naturall reason to this text I brought that place to proue that I made no private sens of these words Which course if you would follow your wrangling would soone weare to an end But you say that that place doeth little or nothing pertaine to this place that heere wee haue in hand A fig is not liker a fig then that is like this That hee descended and that he came from the Father that he ascended and that hee went to his Father are so like that though you put on your spectacles you will not finde a haire betweene them The argument that you frame heere for mee and the two absurd similies framed on the same block let them bee buried in the brain that bred them That is the fittest coffen I know for such rotten stuffe Wherefore to conclude this disputation about these wordes seeing neither your examples in the former section wil fit your hand nor this place tolerate your absurde sense I muste put you in minde of Chippenhames pulpite There be manie godlie soules that would be glad to see you so honest as to performe the worde that you passed there before them HVME his 11. Sect. YOur next argument is taken from the wordes of our Sauiour to Marie Magdalene forbidding her to touche him because he had not yet bene with his Father Whervpon you gather seing the whole man is said to be wher the soule is that Christs soule had not beene in heaven because he himself had not beene there It is a wonder if a man of your learning seeth not so manifest a fallacie For though by a figure a man may well say that the whole is where there is but a part yet it followeth not where the whole is not that there is no parte An argument you knowe a tot◠divise ad negationem omnium partium was neuer current amongst the learned For example The whole race of mankind is not in England Ergo there is no men there O◠Edmond Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate Ergo no parte of him hangeth there Like to this is your reason The whole man Christ was not in heauen Ergo his soule was not there That these wordes of Christ were meant of the whole it is apparant by the text For that which had not yet been with his Father was the same that Marie was forbid to touch That I beleeue you will not say was his soule which is not subject to feeling but the whole man consisting of soule bodie Wherefore it was the whole man that Christ tolde Marie was not with his Father HIL his Reply MY next place was not this but a text out of Syrac 17. 21. At the last shall he arise and reward them and shall repay their reward upon their heads and shall turne them into the lower partes of the earth If the margin is noted Math. 25. 35. So that this place sheweth that after iudgement the wicked shal be turned into the lower parts of the earth that is hell This place because you nor your Sinod can answere you haue passed it ouer and saide nothing to it but are now com to your scholepoints the which when I vse you call sophistry and so it were indeed if I did vse them as you doe You say an argument drawen negatiuely from the whole to the parts doth not hold True it is if by parts you meane integral parts but not essentiall parts My instance was thus Math. 8 11. Many shal come from the East and the West and shal rest with Abraham Isaac Iacob in the kingdom of heauen Out of this place I proue that where the soule of man is after death there is the mā said to be as we vsually say that these Patriarks and all the saints are in heauen though their bodies be in the earth and are dust and ashes If then