the_o presence_n but_o believe_v the_o communication_n of_o it_o to_o all_o the_o purpose_n of_o the_o sacrament_n but_o hear_v a_o great_a subtlety_n that_o bread_n shall_v be_v a_o sacrament_n of_o his_o body_n can_v say_v he_o stand_v with_o the_o protestant_a doctrine_n body_n bread_n how_o sacrament_n of_o his_o body_n which_o in_o the_o little_a catechism_n define_v a_o sacrament_n to_o be_v a_o outward_a visible_a sign_n of_o a_o inward_a spiritual_a grace_n but_o our_o saviour_n body_n in_o the_o first_o institution_n be_v as_o visible_a as_o the_o bread_n and_o though_o after_o ascention_n his_o body_n become_v invisible_a by_o reason_n of_o the_o distance_n yet_o that_o make_v it_o not_o a_o inward_a spiritual_a grace_n his_o conclusion_n be_v therefore_o bread_n can_v not_o be_v the_o sacrament_n of_o his_o body_n 283._o mr._n spencer_n sure_o think_v he_o be_v deal_v with_o child_n that_o have_v new_o learn_v their_o catechism_n for_o see_v he_o present_o afraid_a this_o shall_v be_v return_v upon_o themselves_o he_o know_v first_o that_o albeit_o our_o saviour_n body_n be_v in_o the_o first_o institution_n visible_a and_o so_o it_o be_v still_o visible_a in_o itself_o and_o know_v also_o that_o no_o man_n make_v more_o use_n of_o his_o invisibilitie_n in_o the_o sacrament_n than_o the_o romanist_n do_v his_o body_n be_v break_v eat_v blood_n shed_v drink_v in_o the_o sacrament_n invisible_o yea_o all_o this_o real_o do_v but_o invisible_o when_o he_o be_v visible_a himself_n to_o the_o apostle_n in_o the_o first_o institution_n and_o before_o his_o body_n be_v indeed_o break_v or_o his_o blood_n shed_v on_o the_o cross_n thus_o can_v they_o make_v all_o good_a by_o the_o virtue_n of_o this_o word_n invisible_a yet_o will_v not_o allow_v protestant_n to_o make_v christ_n body_n and_o blood_n the_o inward_a spiritual_a part_n of_o the_o sacrament_n because_o he_o be_v visible_a nay_o but_o though_o he_o be_v now_o invisible_a yet_o be_v not_o his_o body_n the_o inward_a spiritual_a grace_n this_o be_v mr._n spencer_n subtlety_n but_o he_o that_o make_v the_o blood_n go_v along_o with_o the_o body_n that_o who_o receive_v the_o one_o have_v the_o other_o too_o may_v allow_v we_o here_o a_o concomitancy_n of_o christ_n body_n and_o the_o spiritual_a grace_n which_o as_o i_o say_v go_v always_o along_o with_o it_o so_o that_o as_o in_o the_o general_a definition_n of_o a_o sacrament_n it_o be_v say_v sign_n of_o a_o inward_a spiritual_a grace_n so_o in_o respect_n of_o this_o particular_a sacrament_n it_o may_v be_v say_v sign_n of_o christ_n body_n and_o blood_n which_o be_v here_o by_o the_o outward_a visible_a part_n of_o the_o sacrament_n represent_v convey_v with_o all_o the_o spiritual_a effect_n and_o grace_n well_o we_o be_v to_o thank_v he_o for_o vent_v that_o subtlety_n sacrament_n mr._n spencer_n several_a confession_n of_o truth_n in_o this_o point_n of_o the_o sacrament_n for_o it_o bring_v he_o present_o to_o plain_a confession_n of_o truth_n he_o do_v see_v that_o by_o his_o former_a precious_a argument_n against_o the_o protestant_n any_o man_n may_v think_v if_o he_o be_v in_o earnest_n it_o will_v follow_v there_o be_v no_o sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n and_o therefore_o he_o subjoin_v pa._n 283._o line_n ult_n yet_o we_o be_v not_o constrain_v to_o acknowledge_v there_o be_v not_o a_o sacrament_n why_o for_o iâ—_n signify_v that_o heavenly_a and_o divine_a grace_n which_o by_o virtue_n of_o it_o be_v give_v to_o nourish_v our_o soul_n which_o be_v true_o inward_a and_o spiritual_a this_o be_v well_o but_o if_o the_o spiritual_a grace_n be_v give_v by_o virtue_n of_o it_o i._n e._n the_o sacrament_n do_v not_o the_o sacrament_n give_v that_o grace_n by_o virtue_n of_o christ_n body_n give_v in_o it_o yea_o we_o hear_v he_o present_o acknowledge_v also_o that_o our_o saviour_n body_n invisible_o existent_a in_o this_o sacrament_n and_o nourish_v our_o soul_n may_v be_v true_o call_v a_o spiritual_a grace_n and_o inward_a too_o when_o it_o be_v sacramental_o receive_v very_o good_a all_o this_o but_o be_v there_o no_o sign_n of_o this_o body_n hear_v he_o also_o say_v that_o which_o sensible_o appear_v and_o be_v call_v sacramentum_fw-la tantum_fw-la the_o sacrament_n only_o be_v a_o sacramental_a sign_n of_o our_o saviour_n body_n p._n 284._o all_o this_o acknowledge_v to_o the_o defiance_n of_o his_o former_a subtlety_n and_o what_o can_v a_o protestant_a desire_n more_o only_o when_o he_o say_v nourish_v our_o soul_n he_o add_v and_o our_o body_n which_o i_o take_v to_o be_v a_o slip_n for_o it_o be_v not_o the_o doctrine_n of_o his_o church_n to_o say_v christ_n body_n nourish_v our_o body_n and_o now_o in_o the_o name_n of_o god_n why_o shall_v he_o not_o acknowledge_v the_o advantage_n of_o truth_n to_o be_v on_o the_o protestant_n side_n for_o thus_o far_o we_o agree_v that_o there_o be_v divine_a grace_n by_o virtue_n of_o the_o sacrament_n give_v to_o nourish_v our_o soul_n that_o that_o which_o appear_v in_o the_o sacrament_n be_v the_o sarramental_a sign_n of_o our_o saviour_n body_n that_o our_o saviour_n body_n be_v true_o existent_a or_o give_v in_o the_o sacrament_n that_o our_o saviour_n body_n nourish_v our_o soul_n now_o in_o the_o difference_n between_o we_o see_v which_o have_v the_o advantage_n 1._o way_n transubstantiation_n a_o wrong_n to_o the_o sacrament_n several_a way_n that_o which_o sensible_o appear_v say_v he_o and_o be_v call_v sacramentum_fw-la tantum_fw-la be_v the_o sacramental_a sign_n of_o our_o saviour_n body_n but_o what_o be_v that_o which_o appear_v he_o tell_v you_o present_o those_o show_n and_o species_n under_o which_o he_o will_v have_v christ_n body_n to_o exist_v but_o be_v these_o fit_a to_o bear_v the_o name_n of_o a_o sacrament_n of_o the_o sacramental_a sign_n of_o a_o body_n what_o advantage_n will_v this_o have_v give_v to_o martion_n in_o his_o conceit_n of_o our_o saviour_n body_n as_o fantastical_a and_o in_o show_n and_o appearance_n only_o can_v these_o show_n and_o appearance_n of_o bread_n serve_v to_o the_o use_n of_o the_o sacrament_n the_o corporal_a break_n the_o eat_n the_o nourish_a whereas_o protestant_n retain_v the_o substance_n of_o the_o sacramental_a element_n bread_n preserve_v the_o outward_a part_n of_o the_o sacrament_n and_o all_o the_o use_n of_o it_o without_o which_o the_o sacrament_n be_v mairn_v if_o not_o destroy_v preserve_v i_o say_v the_o outward_a part_n without_o prejudice_n to_o the_o inward_a which_o be_v christ_n body_n and_o blood_n for_o we_o hold_v of_o it_o as_o above_o existent_n real_o give_v and_o nourish_v the_o soul_n which_o be_v the_o full_a purpose_n of_o the_o sacrament_n as_o to_o the_o inward_a spiritual_a part_n but_o 2._o they_o prejudice_v the_o inward_a spiritual_a part_n by_o make_v it_o existent_a under_o those_o show_v or_o species_n as_o he_o say_v here_o for_o how_o will_v this_o have_v confirm_v eutychian_o if_o it_o have_v be_v real_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n then_o who_o upon_o the_o mistake_n of_o the_o church_n doctrine_n as_o theodoret_n in_o his_o dialogue_n show_v make_v semblance_n for_o their_o heresy_n say_v the_o humanity_n of_o christ_n be_v swallow_v up_o into_o the_o divinity_n shape_n and_o figure_n remain_v as_o the_o bread_n be_v in_o the_o sacrament_n shape_n only_o and_o appearance_n remain_v again_o they_o bind_v our_o saviour_n body_n so_o to_o these_o show_v and_o species_n of_o bread_n that_o christ_n body_n and_o they_o make_v unum_fw-la quid_fw-la but_o one_o thing_n so_o that_o christ_n body_n go_v along_o with_o they_o wheresoever_o they_o go_v or_o be_v cast_v into_o the_o mouth_n and_o stomach_n of_o wicked_a man_n and_o stay_v wheresoever_o the_o species_n be_v till_o putrefaction_n of_o the_o species_n if_o they_o without_o the_o body_n of_o bread_n be_v capable_a of_o it_o drive_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n away_o this_o and_o hundred_o prejudices_fw-la and_o inconvenience_n follow_v upon_o this_o unnecessary_a fancy_n of_o put_v christ_n body_n under_o the_o species_n in_o the_o place_n of_o substantial_a bread_n we_o as_o be_v say_v preserve_v the_o sacrament_n entire_a acknowledge_v the_o very_a body_n and_o blood_n real_o give_v in_o the_o sacrament_n to_o every_o one_o that_o come_v due_o to_o receive_v give_v i_o say_v to_o all_o the_o purpose_n of_o the_o sacrament_n what_o he_o say_v p._n 285._o the_o word_n of_o institution_n this_o be_v my_o body_n be_v proper_o and_o literal_o to_o be_v understand_v when_o there_o be_v nothing_o that_o constrain_v we_o to_o the_o contrary_a may_v pass_v for_o a_o truth_n if_o he_o do_v not_o suppose_v there_o be_v nothing_o constrain_v all_o the_o former_a inconvenience_n inconsistency_n with_o many_o more_o tend_v to_o contradiction_n do_v constrain_v to_o the_o contrary_n to_o
vnum_fw-la quid_fw-la as_o it_o be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o thing_n uniri_fw-la thing_n valen_n disput_fw-la 6._o in_o 3._o tho._n punct_a 1._o sect._n 19_o christum_fw-la &_o illa_fw-la accidentia_fw-la in_o eucharistia_n veer_fw-mi proprie_fw-la formaliter_fw-la inter_fw-la se_fw-la uniri_fw-la greg._n de_fw-fr val._n prove_v christ_n and_o those_o accident_n to_o be_v true_o proper_o formal_o unite_v from_o hence_o as_o i_o say_v many_o inconvenience_n follow_v for_o what_o happen_v to_o the_o species_n must_v also_o to_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n three_o if_o we_o consider_v this_o with_o reference_n to_o the_o sacrament_n we_o may_v well_o put_v the_o question_n how_o can_v accident_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n be_v in_o the_o sacrament_n without_o their_o proper_a subject_n how_o can_v they_o supply_v the_o purpose_n of_o the_o sacrament_n as_o to_o the_o outward_a part_n of_o it_o without_o the_o substance_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n or_o if_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n under_o the_o species_n must_v supply_v the_o defect_n of_o their_o proper_a subject_n or_o substance_n as_o his_o answer_v by_o the_o personality_n of_o our_o saviour_n must_v imply_v then_o must_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n supply_v the_o place_n and_o property_n of_o the_o outward_a part_n of_o the_o sacrament_n which_o be_v most_o absurd_a by_o this_o of_o the_o personality_n of_o our_o saviour_n he_o serve_v himself_o in_o answer_v the_o eight_o question_n and_o the_o three_o last_o but_o the_o disparity_n be_v evident_a for_o the_o personality_n of_o the_o divine_a nature_n may_v supply_v the_o defect_n of_o it_o in_o the_o humane_a by_o reason_n of_o the_o hypostatical_a union_n which_o join_v the_o humane_a nature_n to_o the_o divine_a but_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n can_v neither_o be_v unite_v to_o the_o species_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n in_o such_o a_o manner_n as_o to_o make_v it_o supply_v the_o defect_n of_o their_o proper_a subject_n neither_o be_v apt_a to_o supply_v the_o property_n of_o that_o subject_n or_o outward_a element_n of_o the_o sacrament_n as_o we_o note_v above_o yet_o do_v mr._n spencer_n by_o his_o answer_n suppose_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o saviour_n to_o supply_v all_o and_o the_o romish_a writer_n by_o that_o strict_a union_n which_o they_o suppose_v to_o be_v between_o his_o body_n and_o the_o species_n make_v it_o subject_a to_o many_o inconvenience_n to_o the_o question_n how_o can_v the_o same_o body_n be_v in_o several_a place_n at_o once_o place_n same_o body_n in_o several_a place_n he_o return_v this_o question_n as_o satisfactory_a how_o can_v the_o soul_n or_o a_o angel_n or_o god_n be_v at_o the_o same_o time_n in_o many_o place_n but_o any_o one_o may_v see_v the_o disparity_n between_o the_o property_n and_o condition_n of_o a_o body_n and_o of_o a_o spirit_n and_o consequent_o the_o unsatisfactoriness_n of_o his_o answer_n nor_o be_v it_o true_a which_o he_o here_o must_v suppose_v that_o a_o soul_n can_v be_v in_o several_a body_n distant_a one_o from_o other_o or_o a_o angel_n in_o distant_a place_n at_o once_o therefore_o they_o be_v force_v to_o take_v in_o god_n property_n of_o be_v present_a in_o many_o place_n loco_fw-la l_o 3_o c_o 4._o de_fw-fr enchar_n quomdo_fw-la deus_fw-la est_fw-la in_o loco_fw-la mr._n spencer_n learn_v it_o of_o the_o cardinal_n affirm_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n to_o be_v in_o place_n as_o god_n be_v to_o that_o of_o penetration_n of_o part_n if_o our_o saviour_n body_n shall_v be_v contain_v in_o the_o least_o part_n or_o crumb_n of_o the_o host_n dimension_n penetration_n of_o dimension_n he_o answer_v by_o our_o saviour_n body_n pass_v through_o the_o door_n and_o through_o his_o mother_n womb_n both_o be_v shut_v but_o it_o be_v no_o where_o say_v they_o remain_v absolute_o shut_v 6._o shut_v in_o 4._o scent_n do_v in_o 44._o qu._n 6._o durand_n show_v how_o with_o more_o reason_n it_o may_v be_v say_v our_o saviour_n come_v in_o the_o door_n open_v to_o he_o unperceived_a by_o his_o disciple_n for_o it_o be_v not_o say_v say_v he_o that_o he_o come_v in_o per_fw-la januas_fw-la clausas_fw-la but_o januis_fw-la clausis_fw-la not_o through_o the_o shut_v door_n but_o the_o door_n be_v shut_v and_o for_o his_o passage_n through_o his_o mother_n womb_n it_o be_v shut_v the_o scripture_n put_v he_o among_o the_o first_o bear_v that_o open_v the_o womb_n and_o though_o the_o father_n often_o speak_v of_o the_o womb_n be_v shut_v yet_o be_v it_o only_o to_o deny_v such_o a_o open_n of_o the_o womb_n as_o be_v injurious_a to_o her_o virginity_n and_o much_o to_o this_o purpose_n durand_n show_v in_o the_o place_n above_o cite_v may_v be_v say_v of_o our_o saviour_n come_n out_o of_o the_o womb_n cite_v saint_n aug._n ambr._n greg._n another_o objection_n p._n 308._o if_o our_o saviour_n flesh_n and_o blood_n be_v real_o in_o the_o sacrament_n indignity_n our_o saviour_n body_n expose_v to_o indignity_n then_o may_v cat_n and_o rat_n eat_v it_o this_o objection_n be_v not_o careful_o express_v for_o such_o inconvenience_n do_v not_o follow_v upon_o a_o real_a presence_n but_o such_o a_o presence_n as_o the_o romanist_n fancy_n which_o bind_v his_o body_n and_o blood_n to_o the_o species_n and_o so_o make_v it_o liable_a to_o all_o the_o indignity_n which_o happen_v to_o they_o but_o see_v how_o he_o will_v answer_v it_o by_o the_o like_a as_o he_o suppose_v if_o the_o flesh_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n say_v he_o be_v real_o in_o the_o passion_n then_o may_v dog_n eat_v his_o blood_n that_o be_v shed_v as_o if_o it_o be_v alike_o what_o be_v do_v to_o his_o passable_a body_n appoint_v then_o to_o suffer_v and_o do_v now_o to_o his_o glorious_a body_n all_o the_o disgrace_n and_o indignity_n that_o be_v do_v or_o can_v happen_v unto_o he_o then_o be_v agreeable_a to_o the_o work_n he_o come_v about_o viz._n to_o redeem_v we_o by_o suffer_v and_o whatever_o become_v of_o that_o precious_a blood_n that_o be_v shed_v it_o have_v notwithstanding_o its_o due_a effect_n for_o our_o redemption_n but_o now_o to_o expose_v his_o glorious_a body_n to_o such_o indignity_n as_o they_o do_v by_o unite_n it_o so_o to_o the_o species_n do_v not_o beseem_v christian_n the_o next_o objection_n or_o question_n if_o there_o be_v so_o many_o miracle_n as_o you_o must_v hold_v wrought_v in_o the_o sacrament_n lessy_a multiply_v of_o miracle_n need_v lessy_a why_o be_v none_o of_o they_o see_v he_o answer_v by_o another_o question_n if_o there_o be_v so_o many_o miracle_n wrought_v in_o the_o incarnation_n of_o our_o saviour_n why_o be_v none_o of_o they_o see_v p._n 309._o but_o great_a disparity_n here_o for_o albeit_o the_o miraculous_a incarnation_n of_o our_o saviour_n be_v secret_a and_o unseen_a in_o the_o work_n of_o it_o yet_o see_v and_o apparent_a enough_o in_o the_o effect_n wrought_v again_o the_o nature_n of_o that_o mystery_n require_v it_o shall_v be_v secret_a in_o the_o work_n but_o for_o our_o believe_v it_o the_o word_n do_v sufficient_o attest_v it_o and_o the_o thing_n or_o work_n wrought_v be_v sufficient_o evident_a therefore_o s._n jo._n say_v c._n 1.14_o the_o word_n be_v make_v flesh_n and_o dwell_v among_o we_o and_o we_o see_v his_o glory_n etc._n etc._n nothing_o like_o in_o the_o sacrament_n notwithstanding_o that_o the_o nature_n of_o sacrament_n require_v all_o be_v do_v to_o the_o sense_n for_o confirmation_n and_o as_o nothing_o appear_v of_o all_o the_o suppose_a miracle_n so_o nor_o do_v the_o word_n of_o god_n plain_o attest_v any_o of_o they_o so_o destitute_a be_v their_o way_n of_o transubstantiation_n of_o any_o just_a proof_n or_o evidence_n chap._n viii_o against_o communion_n in_o one_o kind_n the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n deliver_v in_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n and_o here_o prefix_v by_o mr._n spencer_n carry_v its_o condemnation_n in_o the_o forehead_n point_n the_o boldness_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n in_o this_o point_n acknowledge_v that_o our_o saviour_n institute_v and_o administer_v in_o both_o kind_n and_o that_o the_o use_n of_o both_o kind_n be_v frequent_a might_n have_v say_v constant_a in_o the_o begin_n of_o christian_a religion_n may_v have_v say_v for_o 1200._o year_n after_o the_o begin_n of_o christian_a religion_n yet_o be_v not_o ashamed_a to_o approve_v the_o contrary_a practice_n and_o to_o plead_v for_o it_o a_o authority_n in_o the_o church_n about_o the_o sacrament_n to_o make_v a_o change_n saluâ_fw-la substantia_fw-la that_o be_v the_o substance_n be_v preserve_v entire_a where_o again_o it_o speak_v its_o own_o condemnation_n for_o how_o can_v the_o substance_n be_v preserve_v when_o half_a of_o that_o which_o our_o saviour_n make_v the_o sacrament_n be_v deny_v to_o the_o people_n he_o call_v
note_n be_v ch_z 5._o 8._o ch_n 6._o 10._o ch_n 8._o 3._o which_o we_o shall_v touch_v below_o but_o hear_v what_o he_o say_v in_o his_o next_o disputation_n postremo_fw-la disputation_n non_fw-la fuisse_fw-la morem_fw-la in_fw-la v._o tâ—â—adeundi_fw-la sanctos_fw-la intercessores_fw-la erat_fw-la etiam_fw-la olim_fw-la periculum_fw-la idololatriae_fw-la salm._n disp_n 8._o sect_n postremo_fw-la it_o be_v not_o their_o manner_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n to_o use_v the_o saint_n as_o intercessor_n the_o reason_n because_o they_o be_v not_o then_o glorify_v and_o because_o of_o old_a there_o be_v danger_n of_o idolatry_n mark_v the_o danger_n of_o the_o romish_a practice_n in_o religion_n and_o worship_n but_o be_v there_o not_o danger_n under_o the_o new_a testament_n he_o acknowledge_v it_o say_v it_o be_v not_o express_v but_o be_v leave_v to_o tradition_n secret_o to_o be_v deliver_v which_o he_o call_v ibid._n call_v tacitam_fw-la spiritus_fw-la suggestionem_fw-la ibid._n the_o silent_a suggestion_n of_o the_o spirit_n but_o why_o because_o pro_fw-la because_o quia_fw-la durum_fw-la erat_fw-la id_fw-la judaeis_n praecipere_fw-la &_o gentib_n daretur_fw-la occasio_fw-la putandi_fw-la multos_fw-la sibi_fw-la deos_fw-la exhibitos_fw-la pro_fw-la it_o be_v hard_a to_o command_v such_o a_o thing_n to_o the_o jew_n and_o it_o be_v likely_a to_o give_v occasion_n to_o the_o gentile_n of_o think_v that_o many_o god_n be_v put_v upon_o they_o in_o stead_n of_o the_o many_o god_n they_o have_v forsake_v and_o may_v not_o the_o same_o reason_n still_o be_v good_a against_o romish_a invocation_n and_o image-worship_n either_o to_o keep_v they_o out_o or_o cast_v they_o out_o of_o the_o church_n see_v they_o give_v such_o occasion_n of_o scandal_n to_o jew_n and_o infidel_n throughout_o the_o romish_a communion_n the_o cardinal_n be_v not_o so_o liberal_a with_o we_o dices_fw-la bel._n l._n 1._o de_fw-fr beat_n sanct._n c._n 19_o non_fw-la consuetum_fw-la nec_fw-la ordinariè_fw-la cognoscere_fw-la preces_fw-la etc._n etc._n 20_o sect_n sed_fw-la dices_fw-la for_o he_o will_v confine_v it_o to_o the_o old_a testament_n acknowledge_v it_o be_v not_o the_o custom_n then_o to_o say_v holy_a abraham_n pray_v for_o we_o and_o his_o reason_n be_v because_o they_o do_v not_o see_v god_n and_o can_v not_o ordinary_o i._n e._n without_o special_a revelation_n know_v the_o prayer_n of_o the_o live_n neither_o be_v the_o cardinal_n so_o ingenuous_a with_o we_o as_o be_v his_o fellow_n salmeron_n for_o albeit_o he_o give_v reason_n why_o prayer_n be_v not_o make_v to_o they_o in_o the_o old_a testament_n which_o reason_n be_v good_a against_o their_o invocation_n till_o our_o saviour_n ascension_n yet_o he_o bring_v place_n out_o of_o the_o old_a testament_n for_o a_o seem_a proof_n of_o it_o some_o of_o they_o indeed_o concern_v invocation_n of_o angel_n as_o that_o gen._n 48.16_o &_o job_n 5.1_o to_o which_o we_o brief_o answer_v 9_o answer_v chap._n ii_o nu_fw-la 9_o above_o and_o though_o the_o cardinal_n reason_n which_o exclude_v the_o saint_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n do_v not_o conclude_v against_o the_o angel_n which_o do_v see_v god_n face_n and_o as_o well_o hear_v and_o know_v what_o be_v say_v and_o do_v below_o on_o earth_n in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n as_o after_o yet_o salmerons_n reason_n may_v prevail_v against_o invocation_n of_o they_o because_o of_o danger_n of_o idolatry_n then_o and_o it_o will_v have_v seem_v strange_a and_o hard_a to_o the_o jew_n and_o albeit_o they_o have_v cherubin_n in_o the_o picture_n yet_o not_o angel_n in_o their_o worship_n which_o be_v acknowledge_v by_o azor_n and_o vasquez_n and_o that_o out_o of_o several_a father_n clear_v the_o jewish_a church_n from_o worship_v of_o angel_n or_o image_n and_o something_o to_o this_o purpose_n be_v say_v 10._o say_v chap._n iii_o nu_fw-la 10._o above_o now_o for_o the_o place_n out_o of_o the_o revelation_n invocation_n place_n of_o scripture_n allege_v for_o invocation_n which_o be_v the_o only_a text_n that_o have_v any_o semblance_n or_o pretence_n for_o invocate_a saint_n or_o angel_n they_o be_v mistake_v as_o apply_v to_o that_o purpose_n that_o text_n rev._n 5.8_o where_o the_o four_o live_a creature_n and_o the_o 24_o elder_n be_v set_v out_o as_o fall_v down_o before_o the_o lamb_n have_v harp_n and_o viol_n full_a of_o odour_n or_o incense_n which_o be_v the_o prayer_n of_o the_o saint_n here_o the_o romanist_n that_o will_v have_v these_o prayer_n of_o the_o saint_n to_o be_v mean_v of_o the_o prayer_n of_o man_n live_v offer_v up_o by_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n be_v mistake_v for_o the_o whole_a place_n be_v a_o representation_n of_o the_o church_n below_o offer_v up_o prayer_n to_o god_n by_o christ_n the_o lamb_n and_o those_o eucharistical_a or_o prayer_n of_o thanksgiving_n and_o praise_n chief_o for_o the_o victory_n of_o the_o lamb_n and_o redemption_n by_o christ_n as_o the_o next_o verse_n specify_v they_o thus_o viega_n understand_v they_o of_o the_o church_n below_o and_o he_o follow_v good_a author_n in_o it_o the_o next_o be_v rev._n 6.10_o how_o long_a o_o lord_n here_o also_o be_v a_o great_a mistake_n of_o romanist_n make_v this_o a_o formal_a prayer_n of_o the_o martyr_n for_o revenge_n which_o stand_v not_o with_o that_o charity_n they_o have_v in_o so_o great_a a_o degree_n and_o therefore_o this_o be_v but_o a_o figurative_a or_o emblematical_a representation_n of_o their_o soul_n lie_v under_o the_o altar_n and_o call_n for_o revenge_n only_o to_o show_v the_o certainty_n of_o that_o judgement_n and_o vengeance_n which_o god_n will_v in_o time_n bring_v upon_o the_o heathen_a persecutor_n for_o their_o blood_n as_o when_o abel_n blood_n be_v say_v to_o cry_v for_o vengeance_n and_o for_o the_o argument_n they_o make_v if_o the_o soul_n of_o martyr_n cry_v for_o vengeance_n upon_o their_o enemy_n therefore_o their_o charity_n much_o more_o prompt_v they_o to_o pray_v for_o god_n servant_n it_o fail_v first_o in_o the_o antecedent_n for_o they_o do_v not_o as_o we_o see_v make_v any_o formal_a prayer_n for_o vengeance_n and_o then_o it_o fail_v in_o the_o inference_n for_o it_o will_v only_o conclude_v that_o they_o do_v pray_v for_o the_o church_n militant_a which_o we_o grant_v not_o that_o they_o offer_v up_o prayer_n make_v to_o they_o which_o be_v the_o point_n in_o question_n the_o three_o text_n rev._n 8.3_o where_o another_o angel_n be_v say_v to_o stand_v by_o the_o altar_n have_v a_o golden_a censer_n and_o much_o incense_n be_v give_v to_o he_o that_o he_o may_v offer_v it_o with_o the_o prayer_n of_o all_o saint_n a_o great_a mistake_n this_o and_o impious_a to_o make_v this_o the_o office_n of_o any_o create_a angel_n for_o the_o very_a text_n seem_v to_o imply_v that_o this_o be_v a_o special_a angel_n differ_v from_o the_o seven_o angel_n set_v out_o in_o the_o second_o verse_n as_o minister_a spirit_n and_o what_o one_o create_a angel_n be_v sufficient_a for_o this_o to_o receive_v and_o offer_v up_o their_o prayer_n that_o be_v make_v by_o all_o the_o saint_n or_o just_a man_n on_o earth_n therefore_o general_o it_o be_v interpret_v of_o christ_n the_o great_a angel_n of_o the_o counsel_n of_o god_n as_o viega_n and_o other_o modern_a writer_n and_o herein_o they_o have_v ambrose_n haimo_n rupertus_n and_o the_o interlineary_a gloss_n consent_v to_o who_o i_o may_v add_v what_o irenaeus_n say_v reflect_v upon_o this_o place_n and_o the_o other_o cap._n 5.8_o where_o speak_v of_o the_o church_n offer_v up_o all_o by_o christ_n apply_v to_o it_o that_o of_o malachi_n cap._n 1.11_o in_o every_o place_n incense_n shall_v be_v offer_v then_o add_v now_o sacerdotem_fw-la now_o iren._n l._n 4._o c._n 33._o incensa_fw-la autem_fw-la joan._n in_o apocal._n orationes_fw-la ait_fw-la esse_fw-la sanctorum_fw-la tert._n advers._fw-la martion_n l._n 4._o c._n 9_o per_fw-la jesum_fw-la christum_fw-la catholicum_fw-la patris_fw-la sacerdotem_fw-la st._n john_n in_o the_o revel_n say_v that_o incense_n or_o the_o sweet_a odour_n be_v the_o prayer_n of_o the_o saint_n and_o tertul._n upon_o that_o of_o our_o saviour_n to_o the_o leper_n cleanse_v show_v thyself_o to_o the_o priest_n and_o offer_v mat._n 8.4_o infer_v we_o must_v offer_v up_o all_o our_o prayer_n and_o thanksgiving_n by_o jesus_n christ_n the_o catholic_n or_o universal_a priest_n of_o the_o father_n no_o create_a angel_n can_v be_v such_o a_o catholic_n priest_n to_o offer_v up_o the_o prayer_n of_o all_o saint_n thus_o much_o for_o scripture_n to_o show_v how_o destitute_a they_o be_v of_o any_o real_a proof_n and_o therefore_o want_v the_o first_o and_o main_a ground_n of_o catholic_n faith_n and_o doctrine_n introduct_n sect._n 1._o in_o introduct_n according_a to_o vincentius_n his_o certain_a and_o safe_a rule_n at_o first_o mention_v now_o let_v we_o make_v a_o brief_a survey_n of_o antiquity_n and_o see_v