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A17192 A moste sure and strong defence of the baptisme of children, against [the] pestiferous secte of the Anabaptystes. set furthe by that famouse clerke, Henry Bullynger: & nowe translated out of Laten into Englysh by Ihon Veron Senonoys Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4069; ESTC S109521 39,895 92

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The Anabaptystes do teche the thynges that they can not proue by the scryptures IOI That ye Anabaptistes are agayn ouerthrowē and that ye haue taught that thing whiche ye could not proue by the scriptures and yet for all that ye are so obstacle and stubburne that ye wyll in no wyse gyue place vnto the truth Who woulde haue beleued the to be so stiffe necked that I should be fayne to dryue the to it wyth the scripturs SIM What make these thinges to the baptizing agayn IOI Very muche for if the doctryne of Ihō and the doctrine of Christ be al one their baptisme alsoo is all one There is no exaumple of baptizinge again in all the scryptures Ergo ye haue no example at all of your rebaptizatyon or baptyzing gayne Also they whome mentyon is made of Actes .xix. Chapter could not haue bene baptyzed wyth the baptisme of Ihon. that is done in the water and againe be rebaptized by Paule For so they shoulde had bene twise baptized with one baptism of water and the one should had abolisshed the other which thing can not be done by no mean For theyr baptisme is all one SIM Thou sayest ryghte well yf there were onelye one baptisme There is onely one baptysme which the anabaptystes do deuyde The doctrine is more excellente then baptisme IOIA. Ye do not onely deuide the churche but also baptysme I do bring against the the wordes of Paul which saith Chryst hath sent me not to baptyse but to preache the gospel Now I do aske the whether of these two is more excellent the doctryne of the Gospell or the baptysme SIMO The doctryne is more excellente then baptisme for baptisme is annexed and ioyned to the doctryne IOIADA If Christe and Ihō do agre in the doctryne it foloweth that they did also consent and agre in the baptysme ergo theyr baptysme is all one SIMON It can not be alone for the Apostles and Christe dydde baptyse in the name of Iesus alsoo in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holye ghost Ihon dyd not so Ergo it can not be all one baptysme IOIADA Christ hym selfe dyd not baptyse but hys Apostles in hys name Ihon .iiii. Chapter Ihon .i. Chapter Marke .i. Chapter Iuke .iii. Chapter Ihon and the Apostles dyd baptise in the name of Iesus Ihō .iiij. Cha. Where as thou sayest that Ihon dyd not baptyse in the name Iesus thou doste greatlye erre For Ihon .i. Chapter Mar. i. chap also Iuke the thyrd Chapter it is most manyfest and playne by his own words that Ihon dydde baptyse in Iesus For there he doth expound his baptysme sayinge I doo baptyse wyth water but he that shall come after mee wyll baptyse you wyth the holye ghoste What other thing is thys but that I do prepare you to Christe whyche shall make you perfecte Is not thys to baptise in the name of Iesus In what I praye the dyd the apostles baptyse but in the name of Iesus Actes .ii. Chapter Actes .ii. Chap. Se nowe what thou hast wonne truely none other thing but that with thine own wordes thou haste confyrmed and proued that theyr baptisme is all one SIMON Yet he dyd not baptyse in the name of the father the sonne and the holye ghoste IOIA. Although Ihon did not know Christ to be one god with the father the holy gost Whereby it shoulde folowe that when Ihon dyd baptyse and sende or directe men vntoo Iesus that he dyd baptyse directe or sende them vntoo a bare man Whych thinge how vngodly it is who doth not see Ihon Baptist dyd knowe Christe to be the sonne of god equall with the father in all thynges he knew also that the spirite of god did inhabyte and dwell in hym whych was geuen vnto hym after no measure Ihon .i. Chapter but of whose fulnesse all men did receyue Ihon .i. Chapter For this cause he attributeth so muche vntoo Christ that he did send all men vnto him and prepared the people for hym Farthermore he dydde baptyse theym in the name of Iesus because that he knewe hym too be one god with the father and the holy ghost SIM These be thy reasons not the word of god IO. I wyl proue the these thinges by the worde of god When Ihon did baptise Christe in Iordan the heauens did open he did se the spirit of god descending and comming doun vpō him And behold a voice from heauen saying Thys is my welbeloued son In whō I am pleased Who wil say now that Ihon knew not the father the holy gost Ihon .iij. Ihon .iii. Chapter Chap. He dothe celebrate and set furth with manye goodly praises the maiestie of Christe emong al other thynges speakyng after this maner He whō god hath sent speaketh the word of god For god doth not geue hym the spiryte after a measure The father loueth the son and hath giuen al thynges into his hand These thinges doo testifye and wytnesse that Ihon dyd knowe ryght well the mistery of the trinitie and vnytye in Christe SIMON I graunt that he did know as thou saiest yet it foloweth not therby that Ihō did baptyse in the name of the father the sonne and the holy gost IO. It foloweth plainely For I do aske the whether he that baptizeth in Christ doth baptyse in man or in god SIMO In god truely IOIA. Nowe I aske whether Christ touching his own godheade be seperated from the father the holye ghost SIMO No for there is but one god onely IOIA. Now make thine argument after this maner Christe Iesus touching his diuine nature is not dyuyded from the father and the holy ghost And he that baptizeth in Iesus baptizeth not in his humain nature but in his diuine and godly nature Ergo he that baptizeth in Iesus baptizeth in the father and the holye gost Ihō as it is proued before did baptise in Iesus Christ that is to say in hym that should come after him Ergo Ihon dyd baptise in the father the holy gost for these sentences are of lyke syngnificacion and importaunce he did baptise in god he did baptise in Iesus Christ he dyd baptise in the name of the father the sonne and the holy gost For there is one god onely vnto whom we are brought and grafted by baptisme SIMO I neuer vnderstode this thyng afore for I thought that Ihō had onely begon with hys baptism but that the baptisme of Christe had thē at length begonne when he dyd sende his apostles in the last chapter of Mark and of Mathew Whiche thyng if it were true the baptisme of Ihon and the baptisme of Christ coulde not be all one IOIA. Of thys dyd come and springe the errour of of the Anabaptistes Because that they thinke that baptism was thē ordeyned instituted after that Christe did ryse from death And I do merueyle that they did falle in too thys errour sithens that with playne testymonyes
what then were ye baptyzed SIMON In the name of the father of the sonne and of the holye ghoste IOIADA Ergo ye were not baptyzed in the baptysme of the Busshop of Roome but in the baptysme of GOD. And they that baptise you nowe in what or wyth what wordes doo they baptyse you SYMON With water and in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holye ghost IOIA. Were ye baptized in the same and with the same worde in your youth SIM Yes truely IO. What neadeth thē thys laste baptisme doest thou not se the ye are starke madde SIM When we were children we knew nothyng of baptism We vow now vnto god purenes a lyfe without sinnes IO. Could ye not do this without baptism Yf ye could ye neded no water yf ye coulde not the vertue is in the water Ergo our saluatyon is alligated and bounde to the elementtes agaynste the nature of faythe and of the scriptures What answere canste thou make here SIM It is better that we thus consecrate our selues vnto god Anabaptistes are like vnto monkes IO As monkes did heare before tymes bynd themselues vnto god with there vowes Here poyson is hyddē that ye do chalenge nad attribute vnto your selues purenesse of lyfe ye do detest abhorre other as vnclean as the catharians in times passed ye do gather and assemble vnto your selues a peculiar churche markyng and sealyng your selues as though ye were the purest of all men Rebaptyzation is a newe secte againste the vnytye of the church Wherfore I may well cal your rebaptizatiō a newe secte against the vnitye of the churche whiche thynge appeareth more and more by thy words Tell me I praye the if youre churche is without sinnes or is no more in the flesshe where is then the lost prodigall chylde the straying shepe the fyeld sowen with cockle and darnel the net that draweth all kindes of fisshes the supper or banket where all they that are bidden doo sitte also they that haue not the bridegromes liuerie Yf ye be pure wholl then haue ye no nede of Christ the phisition of the soules O moste bolde and shameles hipocrytes O disguysed and masked hery tykes who hath bidden you to make dyuision afore tyme Or if ye be so holye pure when wyll ye of charitye beare with vs our heauy burthens wherewyth we are ouercharged and burdoned that ye maye fulfyll the lawe of Christe When wyll ye haue compassyon of our infyrmities When wyll ye that are strong take vs that are weake vntoo you Whye do ye cut of and contempne the sicke and weak members What are ye but scismatykes SIMO Thou hast not yet told why the aunciente fathers dyd baptyse them agayne that had bene baptized by heritykes IOIADA They were not baptized againe It is no baptisme onlesse it be ministred in the name of the father the sonne and of the holy ghoste but they were baptized as they that had not bene baptized For herytykes dyd denie the trinitie the god head of Christe and the holy ghost Besides that they were not of the churche Ergo they had no baptisme nor did baptise in the name of Iesus whom they dyd denye Moreouer the custome of rebaptizyng or baptyzing agayn was not cōmonly vsed in the church For they that had bene baptyzed in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holy ghost were not baptyzed agayne but were receyued by the imposition of handes and also were admonisshed to persiste and abide in the sinceritie of fayth This therefore helpeth you nothynge but rather doth make against you Emong the true christians ye haue no exaumple at all of your rebaptization but emong these auncyent heritikes that haue bene alreadye condempned of the churche For ye doo renew the heresyes of Aupentius The Anabaptistes do renew olde heresyes Nouatus Pelagius SIM What maner of men were they IOIA. In the yere of our lorde CC.lv. there rose in Roome a ceraine man called Nauatus a verye arrogante proude obstinate and bold man He did teache Nonatus errour that a man after baptisme was pure and cleane which purenesse yf he had ones lost through sinne he coulde neuer be forgyuen And if anye man for feare and dreade or necessitie of deathe had denied Christe that he ought not any more to be receyued intoo the church thoughe he lamented neuer so sore for hys fall but that he oughte to be separated and as a dampned creature too be shunned of all men Thys thynge dydde cause a counsayle of graue and holy men to be gathered at Roome A counsall agaynst Nouatus whiche by the scriptures beynge truelye vnderstanded did condempne this opinion as vngodly and herytycall Yet in the meane season Nouatus dothe not leaue of nor yet recant his vngodly opinion but rather did assemble and gather a peculyar churche condempning the churches where synners and repentaunt personnes were he dydde call hys churche pure Therefore were the Nouatyans Why the Nouatiās wer called Catharians called Catharyans Whome he dydde receyue into his church them did he bind vnto his errour consecrate vnto his vnpure clenlynes by reqaptizatiō or baptizing again I do not bring these thinges out of mine own head but out of those auncyent doctours Cornelius Ciprianus Dionesius Alexandrinus and Eusebius Of whome some did lyue in Nouatus time The Nouatians Anabaptistes are lyke in all thynges Now if thou dost diligently loke vpon these auncyent Nouatians the anabaptystes of our tyme thou shalt find very litle difference betwene them for as Nouatus beinge openly conuinced in that most famous counsayle of learned Bishops doth not forsake hys errour but obstinately dothe defende it so the Anabaptistes do at this present For howe often haue they bene ouerthrowen in the open disputations that haue bene kepte wyth them in Tigure Sanctogallum Berne Basile Constance Argentyne and Auguste And yet for all that they wyl rather loose theyr lyfe then for sake theyr errour yea they do gather assemble peculier churches they baptise agayne they condempne oure churches as vncleane they doo atribute vnto them selues purenesse of lyfe to be shorte they doo all thynges that Nouatus dydde In the meane season they are ambitious arrogante proude pufte vp and verye hipocrytes SIMON I vnderstande that the Anabaptystes are Nouatyans What sayest thou of the other two IOIA Aupentius was busshop of Milan Aupentyus condemneth the baptisme of childrē afore Ambrosius of the sect of Arrius He did condempne the baptisme of children His errour was condempned in the counsayle of Miluent SIMON But it foloweth not thereby that infantes muste be baptyzed IOIADA Verelye it foloweth whych thyng we wyll proue by and by ¶ The second Dialogue That the baptysme of children is of God SIMON Whatsoeuer thou sayest I wyll proue by most stronge argumentes that the baptisme of children is not of god IOIADA And I wyll gladly heare howe