may brag and vsurpe to haue this spirit particularly promised vnto him And as touching the particular inspiration of Esay it was not founded on his onely fancie and presumption but on the assurance that God gaue him by a worke supernaturall as is said in the 6. Chapter And further it was not yet sufficiently founded to bee beleeued as hauing inspiration had he not shewed the same by other effects and by other Prophesies already come to passe As it behooueth euery Prophet should doo before he were beleeued But leauing all those things as farre fetched and from the first proposition I referre the iudgement as before Answere There is not one of the Church if he be a ture member therof vnto whom the spirit of God is not communicated As S. Paul and S. Iohn in his first Catholique Epistle teacheth And as touching the pretended presumption there is great difference betweene the presumption and imaginations of the spirit of man which is but darkenesse and of it selfe knoweth nothing of the thing of God and the reuelations of the holy Ghost which are certaine and assured And where it is said that the answeres are farre off from the first proposition if it be so the demaâ—nds are so also Obiection The conclusion is if each one ought to be beleeued in saying hee hath a particular reuelation of the holy Ghost without otherwise shewing that they are holy Scriptures and that there is difference amongst them let euery one iudge if the demands and answeres be pertinent to this difficultie or no. And forasmuch as some of the newe doctrine doo shew no proofe more then others of their particular inspirations whether the one ought to be more beleeued then the other concerning the same Answere By the former answeres it hath beene declared how the reuelations pretended by particular persons ought to be examined by the meanes by which men may iudge whether they be of the spirit of God or no. Then spake Doctor Vigor saying that in the discourse aforesaid he had vnderstood many sayings contained in the answers of the Minister which were against the word of God as when he said that it behooueth first to honour the Sonne before the father Which the said Vigor reproouing the said Spyna maintained that thing to bee true affirming such proposition to be grounded and contained in the holy Scripture as in the Gospel and first Catholique Epistle of S. Iohn Vnto which Vigor replyed that in the said places the word First is not found Neuertheles least he fall on that which hath beene put forth and proposed in the beginning of the conference he wil not now enter into the confutation of that saying reseruing it to the end of all the conferences Answere The said Spyna required that Vigor should quote the places of the Scripture which hee pretended to bee contrarie to that was contained in his answere And where it is said that it first behoueth to glorifie the Sonne before the Father according as it is written in the places aboue noted for confirmation of his saying hee proposeth this reason founded on the Scripture We cannot know the Father if we haue not knowne the Sonne Wee cannot glorifie the Father if we haue not knowne him Therefore it followeth that the knowledge and glory of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glory of the father which being referred by the said Vigor to be more amply handled in the end and conclusion of all the conference the said Spyna is so contented Obiection The sayd Vigor without wading further in this dispute obiecteth that by the same reason alledged by the said De Spyna It followeth that it first behooueth to honour the Father before the Sonne for by the Father wee come to the knowledge of the Sonne as it appeareth by that which our Lord sayd to Saint Peter Caro sanguis non reuelauit tibi sed pater meus qui in Coelis est Flesh and blood hath not reuealed this vnto thee but my Father which is in the heauens Where it is manifest that the heanenly Father did reueale to Saint Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon the sayd Vigor doeth thus argue If the reason of the sayd De Spyna bee good by the Father wee know the Sonne it behooueth then to honour the Father before the Sonne Answere To follow the order of the knowledge we may haue of Iesus Christ and of his Father proposed vnto vs in S. Iohn It behooueth to beginne by the Sonne and from the Sonne to come to the Father For Saint Phillip hauing once required that hee would shew vnto him and his other companions his Father hee said vnto him Phillip hee that hath seene me he hath seene my Father To teach them that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is the precedent knowledge of the Sonne which may bee also confirmed by that which is else where written where Iesus Christ saieth That no man knoweth the Father but the Sonne onely and hee to whom the Sonne will reueale him And to answere the authoritie of Saint Matthew alledged by the sayd Vigor the sayd De Spyna sayeth that in the text by him produced there is no mention made of the knowledge of the Father nor of the meane to come vnto it But onely of the reuelation made by the grace of GOD and his holy Spirite vnto Saint Peter and his other fellowes to know IESVS CHRIST and the Father in him Whereupon Vigor sayde hee referred himselfe to the hearer and reader that his obiection is not answere dreseruing for another Conference to treat more amply of that point if hee will maintaine it least hee should fall vpon that which hath beene formerly proposed whereunto the sayd De Spyna answered that hee so agreed The sayde Vigor vpon an answere made by the sayde De Spina where hee putteth difference betweene the certaine reuelation made by the Lord to a particular person and the holy Scripture addeth that hee is abashed of the same answere considering that men beleeue not the holy Scripture But in that they are acertained that the Lord is authour thereof who cannot lye Then likewise that if a particular man haue assurance that the reuelation is made vnto him by the Lorde or else that one is assured of the reuelation made to another as much is hee bound to giue faith to the reuelation as to the Scripture The which saying also hee will not as hee may handle and declare at large but come presently to the first question which is not yet resolued And prayeth the sayd De Spina to set forward the same Answere Where the sayde Vigor is abashed that the sayde De Spina should say in one of his answeres That the reuelation of the Lord and the word were things different the same is befalne him for not well conceiuing the sence of the saying For De Spina will not put difference touching the certainty
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
Sed sitā abrupte in praesumptiombus nostris hac sententia vtamur quid vis de Deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit quia facere potuerit Non autem quia omnia potest facere idioque credendū est illū fecisse etiā quod non fecerit sed an fecerit requirendū Potuit ita saluus sum Deus pennis hominē ad volandū instruxisse quod miluis praestitit non tamen quia potuit statim fecit potuit praxeam omnes pariter haeriticos statim extinxisse non tamē quia potuit extinxit Oportebat enim miluos esse haereticos oportebat patrem crucifigi Hac ratione erit aliquid deo dificile id scilicet quod non fecerit non quia potuerit sed quia noluerit Etenim posse velle est non posse nolle Nothing is vnpossible to God who knoweth not this And things vnpossible to mē are possible to God who is ignorant hereof And God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise Therefore say the heretikes namely the Monarchians it was not hard for God himself to make both the Father and the sonne against the prescribed forme in humane things For the barren to bring foorth against nature as also a Virgin was nothing hard vnto God Truly for God there is nothing too hard But if in our presumption we so abruptly vse this sentence wee may faigne euerie thing to be of God as though hee will do because he can doo We must not beleeue because hee can doo all things that therefore hee hath done what he hath not done but wee must seeke if hee haue done it God could I am sure haue formed man to flye with wings as he hath appointed the kytes he hath not forthwith done it because he could He could presently cut off both Praxea and likewise all heretikes together yet hath he not therefore because he could For it behoued there should be both kytes and heretikes It behoued also the Father to be crucified By this reason shall something be too hard for God namely that which he will not do not because hee cannot but because he will not For to be able is to will and not to be able is not to will By which text it is easily seene that according to Tertullian God can do many things which he will not do as he can make a man to flye and doth it not destroy heretikes neuerthelesse he destroyeth them not because he will not all that he may doo And touching the conclusion which the Ministers draw from the said place of Tertullian to wit that the power of God is his will and his weakenesse is likewise his vnwillingnesse The Ministers shewe that they haue not well examined the vnderstanding of that place For Tertullian of his owne iudgement saith it not so should he haue concluded against what hee had said before but hee inferreth the same against the Monarchian heretikes which said That what God could he would do and it was done And for this reason Tertullian concludeth against them that it behoued whatsoeuer God had not done was to him hard and impossible So that after these heretikes it was all one to be done and to haue power to do it And not to be done as much as to be impossible to God And hereof inferreth Tertullian would follow that the power and the will and the act of God should be all one And contrariwise that a thing not to be done and to be impossible for God to do it should be all one and so the power of God and his wil all one And his weaknesse his vnwillingnesse be likewise all one Which Tertullian concludeth for an absurd thing proceeding from the opinion of the said Monarchians heretikes and not of his owne iudgement which was altogether contrarie Wherein it appeareth that the opinion of the Ministers is like to that of the Monarchian heretikes refuted by Tertullian And that the Ministers maintaine such an opinion it is euident by that which is contained in the fift blasphemie The Doctors for conclusion against the said blasphemies do shewe that God can do much more then he will do and then he hath established in the order of the world For otherwise other blasphemies would yet ensue namely that the power of God should not be infinite but limited Also that all things of necessitie should bee done in this world because God could not but maintaine the established order in the world Which Caluin himselfe detesteth saying That God of his omnipotencie changeth and altereth the order established as seemeth best vnto him and that otherwise to thinke were to limit his power and prouidence Where the Ministers say in their said former article that the auncient Doctors of the Church haue denied the omnipotencie of God it is a manifest falshood and they wrong them greatly For denie it they doo not but interpret the scripture which seemeth to denie it and giue to vnderstand how it ought to be taken So that so farre off is it that by this scripture well vnderstood exception may bee giuen against the omnipotencie of God that contrariwise the same is confirmed as saith Saint Augustine in the fift booke and tenth Chapter of the Citie of God The power of God saith hee is nothing diminished although it bee said that hee cannot die nor bee deceiued for such things he cannot do because that could he do them his power should thereby be lessened And concludeth that such things which be of infirmitie he cannot do beccause he is almightie The Ministers in the end of the first article vse deceit towards the Doctors in that they affirme theyr difference to be because the Doctors maintaine that a body is in many places for as much as God can so cause it to bee and that the Ministers on the other part hold that it is not in the power of God to do it because hee will not doo it The Doctors doo shewe that they for their part neuer so concluded for truth that one true body was in two places because God could so cause it but that the question was onely to knowe whether God could doo it to come afterwards by order to proue by scripture that hee would doo it And they haue alreadie heretofore cyted the scripture of the Supper and Ascention And further added the doctrine of Caluin touching the said Supper to shewe that the will of God is to make one body to be in two places as indeed it is according to the expresse word of God Moreouer to this selfe-same end the Doctors haue produced the scriptures of the closed doores of the birth of our Lord and of the resurrection through the stone which are made like and by the same reason to that of a body in many places The Ministers on the contrary part to denie the wil of God and depraue the holy scriptures which declareth the will of God to be such that one body be in
can do any thing against the said order which he hath put in the world And thirdly that were it so there should bee contradiction in his will whereby it would followe that hee should be a lyar And for the fourth blasphemie that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnesse And for the fift the Ministers pretend that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe instant hath beene in many places before they beleeue that God could doo it otherwise they intend to inferre that hee had not power and could not do it So that the Ministers will nought acknowledge of the power of God but so much thereof as hee hath shewed by effect And to that purpose they alledge Tertullian All which blasphemies be drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article Touching the first which is that God cannot make a thing which derogateth the order he hath established in the world it is very apparant that it is blasphemie by the holy scripture which in infinite places maketh mention of the workes of God aboue nature which the Ministers call the order established in the world And in proper termes teacheth that God can do infinite things aboue the order by him established in the world Namely that Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salte that a barren woman in her old age hauing an old husband brought forth a childe that a withered Rodde budded that an Asse spake that the sonne stayed and went backe and other more then innumerable examples contained in the old Testament And as touching the new that a virgin brought forth a child That a body walked vpō the water mounted into heauen And generally all the myracles that Christ and his Apostles did aboue nature which is contrary to the order established in the world And of this blasphemie ensueth an other that God since hee established his order in the world hath not done nor could nor can do any myracle Now to proue that the scripture teacheth clearely that God can do contrary to the order established in the world it is written in the 50. of Esay Is my hand that is to say my power so shortned that it cannot helpe or haue I no power to deliuer Behold at my rebuke I drie the sea I make the flouds desart Their fish rotteth for want of water and dyeth for thirst I cloathe the heauens with darknesse make a sacke their couering And more expresly in the new Testament where it is said by S. Iohn That God can of stones raise vp children to Abraham Which place although it may be expounded allegorically yet hath S. Iohn willed in the litterall sence to shewe that it was possible to God And the diue did know and confesse that if Iesus Christ were the true sonne of God he could chaunge the stones into bread Which is neuerthelesse contrary to the order established in the world And it must be noted that there is no more impossibilitie that the bread should bee chaunged into flesh by the omnipotencie of God then a stone into bread And therefore they which denie this last done by the power of God do shewe to beleeue lesse the almightinesse of God then the diuels The confutation of the second blasphemie dependeth on the confutation of the first For although God against the order established in the world hath done many myracles as hath beene before recyted yet neuerthelesse there is no mutabilitie nor chaunge in his counsaile Touching the third blasphemie which is that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the world there should be contradiction in his will and he should therfore be a lyar The Doctors obiect that it would follow that the will of God should be such neuer to will any thing contrary to the order established in the world And that God should haue purposed and declared by his word his will to be such For otherwise can they not know what the will of God shuld be And the Ministers do not nor can they make it appeare by the word of God the will of God to be such that he will not do any thing against the order established in the world And it behoueth the said Ministers to teach of such a wil of God before they conclude that God made one body to be in two places or other thing against the order of nature established in the world he should be a lyar Touching the fourth blasphemie which is that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnes according to the sence which the Ministers giue it to wit if God cannot but that which he will it is an heresie of the heretikes called Monarchians in the Primitiue Church Against whom Tertulliā wrote in his booke Aduersus Praxeā and afterwards renewed by Peter Abaillardus And since cōtinued by one called Wickliffe who measured the power of God according to his will Which is against the expresse word of God which often declareth many things possible to God that notwithstanding he wil not do as by that which is written in the 2. of Wisedome appeareth where mention is made that God could send vpon the children of Israel many kinds of affliction to chasten thē but he would not do it hauing disposed all things by number waight measure And that he could destroy those which had offended but that he would not vsing mercie towards thē And in the Gospel our Lord said to S. Peter Thinkest thou that I could not now pray my Father and he would send me more then 12. Legions of Angels And notwithstanding he would not pray for that purpose And his Father would not send them although he had power to do it to the person of his sonne And Iesus Christ himself could haue letted his enemies frō taking away his life but he would not And the Father saith S. Paul by his power could haue saued him frō corporall death But neuerthelesse hee would not do the one nor the other Notwithstanding the Ministers might say that it was preordained yet the scripture saith expresly that he could do it although it had bin preordained And as touching the authoritie of Tertullian the Doctors are glad that the Ministers do produce it because it maketh wholy for the truth against the blasphemy of the Ministers who haue omitted many words and sentences of the said Tertullian which serued to the confutation of their error as by the text here inserted may be easily iudged Nihil Deo difficile Quis hoc nesciat Et impossibilia apud seculum possibilia apud deū Quis ignorat Et stulta mūdi elegit Deus vt confundat sapientia Ergo inquiūt haeretici Monarchiani scilicet difficile non fuit deo ipsū se patrem Filiū facere aduersus traditam formā rebus humanis Nam Aerilē parere contra naturam difficile deo non fuit sicut nec virginē planè nichil Deo difficile
interpret that two bodies to pierce one an other is no other thing then one body to giue place to the other Of which false and licencious interpretation the common phrase of speech among Philosophers themselues doth condemne them And the feat example brought of them which walke through the aire beating vpon them and of Birdes when they flye is ouer subtill And whereas they boast in the said article that in denying that two bodies may be in one place by the omnipotencie of God or one bodie in two places they aduance and magnifie the power of God As true is that as when in all their other errors by which they resist the truth of God and blaspheme him they euer boast to aduance the glorie of God And the Ministers must paint and couer their filthinesse and deformitie with some colour of speech to blinde the simple and ignorant Good reason also haue the Ministers not to excuse the interpretations of Caluin and Beza as too too friuolous and ridiculous and preferre in the meane time their owne interpretation though more ridiculous then those of their Maisters wherein appeareth the concorde betweene the Maisters and Disciples all vsing one foundation of their religion which is to trust alwayes to their owne particular and priuate interpretation and inspiration and to preferre the same to all others Where the Ministers say that the bodie of our Lord was not inuisible to the Disciples of whoÌ„ mention is made in the 24. of Luke but that his bodie only being nimble he suddainly withdrew himselfe the Doctors obiect that the suddaine departing whereof speaketh S. Ambrose and Lyra maketh not but that the bodie was inuisible as signifieth the Greeke word Aphantos which signifieth not a suddaine departure but an incapacitie to be seene and knowne And so the text of the scripture is plainly for the Doctors Ioyned neuerthelesse that when the olde and late Diuines wil giue examples that Iesus was made inuisible they ordinarily alledge this passage The Ministers also who boast that they rest vpon nothing but the pure word of God for exposition of scripture bring their dreames aboue their owne perswasion as touching the closed doores appeareth And with like libertie vse they to expound the text of Saint Paul which expresly maintaineth that our Lord pierced the heauens And it is likely say they that the heauens claue a sunder and were opened And if one demaund whence they learned such an interpretation they answere from the word of God founded vpon their inward inspiration by which they appropriate that which is written in Saint Mathew that heauens were opened when the Doue descended vpon our Lord. As though all the heauens were clest asunder and the holy Ghost had not power to descend without the opening of them not nothing that the scripture in many places taketh heauen for the ayre Concerning that they alledge of S. Stephen who when he was stoned sawe the heauens open more meete it were for the Ministers to interpret such visions to bee made in spirit as there is great likelyhood else should it behoue to confesse two myracles the one in the diuision of the heauens the other in this that the sight of S. Stephen not onely pierced vnto but also aboue the heauens where the Ministers confesse the body of Iesus Christ to bee at the right hand of the Father whom Saint Stephen sawe which is against the order of God established in the wold whereby it is necessarie that there be a certaine distance betweene the eye seeing and the thing which is seene And no lesse hard is it that such thing bee done then that two bodies should pierce one an other Nor must they forget that the scriptures oftentimes in spirituall apparitions and visions vseth this phrase of speech that the heauens were opened and yet in such case was there but a spirituall vision and likewise but a spirituall opening And euen as the Ministers will take the rigour of the word the opening of the heauens so should they not thinke it straunge if the Doctors with like rigour take the piercing of the heauens especially in the article of the Ascention where the question is of the bodie of Iesus Christ which had alreadie pierced more impenitrable bodies then the heauens And the Doctors to auoyd tediousnesse referre themselues to more ample debating this point of the piercing of the heauen hereafter As touching the 28. article where the Ministers against expresse scripture do obstinately defend that God cannot by his power make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors cannot sufficiently maâ—uel either at the blindnesse of the Ministers which seeme to see nothing at noone-day or at their obstinacie and boldnesse And that the Ministers vnderstand not their fault the Doctors cannot thinke but that impugning the truth well knowne to themselues they sinne against their owne conscience And God suffereth that it seemeth to happen vnto them in this so manifest a place and text of the scripture to the end that by this article one may perceiue how much more bold they are to giue false sences to scriptures more obscure then this and to the sayings of the auncient Christians which make against them Now that the great wrong may be vnderstood which the Ministers doo in denying that our Lord can cause a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors do obiect that it should be impossible with God to saue a rich man vsing such argument taken from the text of the Gospell More impossible or hard is it for God to saue a rich man then to make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle But God by his omnipotencie cannot make after the Ministers a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle Therefore God by his omnipotencie cannot cause a rich man to be saued and enter into the kingdome of heauen The Maior is of the scripture The Minor is confessed by the Ministers and the consequence is necessarie And according to all Philosophie hee that cannot doo a more easie thing cannot doo a thing more hard So also without contradiction haue the Auncients expounded the present scripture as doth Origen in the Homily vpon this place saying that it is possible for a Camell to enter through the eye of a needle yet not possible with men but with God And the manner how such thing may bee done is knowne of God and his sonne Iesus Christ and of him to whom hee shall reueale it Semblably Saint Augustine in the first and fift Chapter of his booke of the spirite and letter thus speaketh to Marcellinus whom hee wrote vnto It seemeth to thee absurd when I say vnto thee that a man may bee without sinne albeit that Christ excepted such a one is not founde Should it seeme absurd vnto thee that a thing may bee done whereof no example can bee shewed Seeing thou doubtest not as I thinke but it neuer happened
the feare of God or any zeale of his honour to be wise and attentiue to weigh and discouer the sayd subtilties and practises of the Diuell and not to beleeue all spirites before they haue well sounded and tryed them and that they also approue not all the things which vnder the name of God may be proposed vnto them and which at the first may seeme to tende and appertaine to his honour and glorie but that they remember the Apostles admonition to try the spirites and that they verie carefully regarde the ende and scope of those which propose vnto them such doctrine And if there be any thing wherin heed must be taken of such cosonages and fraudes which are layd to surprise the simple it is needfull chiefly in this matter of the Omnipotency of God whereof is the present question For the Ministers do confesse that it ought to be knowne beleeued and vniuersally adored of all creatures in heauen and in earth Moreouer they confesse that the faithfull cannot haue a better foundation nor better rampert to leane vnto and sustaine themselues against all the endeuours as well of the diuel the world and their other enemies as also to be short of all the temptations wherewith they might bee assayled and befieged This Omnipotency they confesse is the hinge of the axeltree as it were wherevpon the world with all it parts is turned and sustained They confesse moreouer that the same Omnipotency is not only venerable to the Angels and blessed spirits in heauen and to the elect and Saints vpon earth but also terrible to the reprobates and diuels in hell So that the one doth willingly embrace and submit themselues vnto it and the others are constrained to bow vnder it and yeeld vnto and obey the same Lastly they confesse that it is infinite and of incomprehensible greatnesse to all creatures as the wisedome goodnesse Iustice truth and the other vertues and proprieties of our God This is that which the Ministers beleeue and confesse of the Omnipotency of God and that which they thinke all Christians ought thereof to beleeue and hold Now to make good vse of this Almightinesse and to apply it as is meete we must iudge thereof according to his will and of his will according to his word So that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God all things good and euill ordered and disordered agreeable and contrary to his nature false and true But to well rule and order the thoughts and cogitations of Gods Omnipotencie presenting themselues in our hearts we must for our part measure the same according to his holy will and beleeue that it cannot be limitted letted nor hindred by any other will or power which wil or may be opposite vnto it Which thing S. Augustine well teacheth in many places as in the fift booke and 10. Chapter of the Cittie of God where speaking of God hee saith That he is called almightie because he doth all whatsoeuer he will and suffereth nothing if he will it not Also in the seuenth Chapter of the 21. booke For no other reason but this onely is he called Almightie that he can do all whatsoeuer he will doo Also in the first Chapter of the booke De Symbolo ad Catec Our God saith he doth all that which he will do and that is his Almightinesse Also in the 119. Sermon De tempore He is Almightie to do all things that he will do and ordaineth to be done These sentences and many other lyke found in the writings of that good Father and other Auncients do clearly teach vs the maner how we may well make profit of the faith we haue of the omnipotency of God That is in bringing vs backe to his will and iudging of his will by his word and not by the false imaginations which therof we may conceiue in our minds or that others would propose vnto vs As did Sathan to Iesus Christ whom he would haue induced to cast downe himselfe headlong vnder a vaine trust of helpe from the omnipotencie of God Euen so also the Monarchians who vnder colour and pretext of Gods omnipotencie which of some myracles they gathered would proue and establish their heresies and take away the personall distinction which is betweene the Father and the sonne saying That God being Almightie could therefore make himselfe Father and sonne together Of the Anabaptists in these last times is it also found that for a vaine assurance which they put in the omnipotency of God hoping he could nourish them as he did the byrds would not labour Many such lyke more great inconueniences may happen to all those that hauing such wandering and stragling thoughts of the Omnipotency of God wil not restraine nor reduce them to his will And this we see is besalue the Doctors who willing to apprehend and measure the omnipotencie of God by their owne imaginations rather then by his will and word are as saith S. Paul become vaine in their imagination and their foolish heart is filled with darknesse And willing to behold the Maiestie of God out of the limits and bounds which hee had shewed them in his word haue bene intrapped and ouerwhelmed of his glorie And that is befalne them which in their resolution they themselues haue touched to wit that for not hauing taken the word of God for their guide nor followed the steppes and pathes of his holy spirit they do erre from the faith which contrarie to that which the Doctors doo thinke is not destroyed nor ouerthrowne by the consideration of the creatures and workes of God which are as a myrror of his glorie and diuinitie but in as much as by them wee were turned away from the promises of God by the which we are assured of his will and almightinesse which doth warrant and assure vs of the effects and accomplishment of this holy will Which may bee seene and clearly obserued in them that were sent by Moyses to espie out and know the Land of the Cananites Two of which namely Iosua and Caleb could neuer be withdrawne from the trust they had in theyr God For as much as turning their mindes from the consideration of all things which could make them doubt thereof as of the Fortresse and munition of Cities the number force weapons and experience of the countrie Inhabitants they stayed their minds in the sole consideration of the promises which God had made vnto thē Cōtrariwise the others forgetting the same promises nought cōsidering but that which they saw before their eyes they fell and caused all the people to fall with them into that cursed and damnable infidelitie for which they were so grieueuously punished in the wildernesse and excluded from enterance therevnto and enioying of that thing which God had promised to theyr Fathers And in the example of Abrahā whose faith abode firme and stable by the consideration chiefly of the promise and will of God as S. Paul declareth So that the consideration of
Gods Almightinesse came after to maintaine second that which he had of the promise One may see by these examples what daunger there is to depart and draw backe although neuer so litle from the word of God by which we are guided to the knowledge of his will And by the knowledge of his will conducted to the consideration and iudgement which we ought to make and haue of his Almightinesse For want whereof the Doctors are fallen into errors and raylings which they propose to the Ministers by their writing and conclusion of their resolution That is to say that the body of Iesus Christ may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant which is against the faith we ought to haue and constantly retaine of the wisedome prouidence and euerlasting truth of our God and against that likewise which wee ought to haue and keepe of our Lords true humanitie And that which they first alledge of S. Ierome against Vigilantius nought serueth for the proofe and confirmation of their error Where no other thing he saith but that the soules of the Saints are not inclosed in a certaine prison as dreamed Vigilantius but do follow the Lambe whithersoeuer he goeth Nor that which they alledge of Saint Augustine in the booke which he made of the pure care of the dead For in that booke hee himselfe confesseth that he is incertaine of that which the Doctors doo propose and are assured And nomore doo the three authorities they alledge of Saint Iohn Chrisostome Saint Ambrose and Saint Augustine whose sentences ought to be taken and vnder stood of the Sacrament and not of the thing signified by the Sacrament As in the next conference the Ministers well hope to shew The Ministers do much maruel that the Doctors so draw backe and will not but vnwillingly enter into conference for defence of their Masse and to gainsay the Supper celebrated in the reformed Churches For seeing they hold it for the principall foundation of theyr Religion and propose the same for a meane of saluation to the whole world That they be not seene seducers nor ouer credulous to beleeue or teach an incertaine and vnassured thing they should alwayes be prouided and furnished with reasons to the end they might approue and readily defend that which they beleeue and say and might conuince them also that would deny the same But in this it appeareth to proceed of of an euill conscience which being timerous and fearefull flyeth alwaies the combat and the light It is long time since the Ministers haue importuned them to enter into the deciding and conference of these two points and to bring them thervnto they haue proposed vnto them that it was the end for which the conference was appointed which Madame de Buillon in whose fauour it was made once or twise hath publikely required and that they also had often protested that they were not for other ende assembled with the Doctors then to satisfie therein the said Lady of Buillon and not to be examined by them as they do falsly pretend For the Ministers haue no desire to be examined of such Doctors being Priests Ioyned that to be taught in the points of religion and to know the truth they would not choose such Maisters nor repaire vnto them and frequent theyr schooles for that purpose And yet notwithstanding all the foresayd remonstrances often made and repeated by the Ministers the Doctors haue alwayes vntill now deferred to conferre of the foresaid points awayting as it is likely that some occasion should be offered to breake off and determine the sayd conference before they had begunne to speak thereof Albeit had they any zeale to thâ— honour of God and to the edification of his Church they should by all meanes haue procured that the sayd two points should haue beene fully cleared and resolued be it that they would confirme and strengthen them of their part or withdraw as they pretend those of our side from their errors For it is not much needfull hereafter to dispute of the Saints of Purgatory Pilgrigrimages and other like points In regard of which the most part of the world is at this day cleared By meanes whereof as well the Doctors as the Ministers ought chiefly to insist vpon these two points and to endeuour with them to make them cleare and to be vnderstood of each one and not to vse Sophistries and cauils to make them obscure and retaine thereby the simple in their ignorance as the Doctors endeuour to do Who hauing left of set purpose the Theses Articles proposed to them by the Ministers with order good methode in their last answeres do confusedly propose certaine questions culled out of their schoole diuinitie euer more and more to fold vp this matter And in so doing they withstand as euer hitherto they haue done what so and so often they haue protested to wit that they would examine the confession of the reformed Churches whereof notwithstanding they haue not handled one only point in all the conference Wherein they haue shewed and yet plainly do shewe the distrust they haue to be able to withstand so cleare and apparant trueth as that which is proposed in the saide confession Answeres to the Preface of the Doctors Questions THe Doctors before they propose their Questions in their Preface do call the Supper celebrated in the refor-Churches a prophane and polluted banquet And in so saying they neither shame nor feare first to blaspheme Iesus Christ who instituted the same and is the authour therof and then to condemne the Apostles of Impietie which so haue celebrated and taught it together with all the auncient Churches which followed and obserued whiles it reremained in it puritie the forme and maner which the Euangelists and Apostles had taught and left by their writings But the Ministers would willingly demaund of the Lordes our Maisters that they particularly note vnto them wherein they can violate the institution ordinance of Iesus Christ and leaue his example and that of his Apostles in the celebration of the Supper For when they will celebrate the same they first assemble the whole Church together as Iesus Christ did his Apostles and Disciples where after their publike confession of sinnes and vnderstandingly made in the name of all they make a Sermon to the people wherein according to the grace and power which God hath giuen them they declare the causes and occasions the end the vse the points and effects of the holy Supper to lift vp the hearts of the people to the consideration of the incomprehensible loue which the Father hath shewed towards his Church when in fauour thereof and for the saluation of the same he hath not spared his owne sonne but exposed him to a cruell and cursed death to the end that each one calling to minde so great a grace and mercie be kindled and inflamed in the loue of God and tremble at the ingratitudes and rebellious offences and sinnes which he hath committed
shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.