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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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of the people and their Alies After he was created earle by the Pope and counsell and inuested therein by the French King and al the whole country had embraced him for their prince he cruelly cōmanded the citizens of Carcassane Towlose Narbon to dismantell their walles to fill vp their ditches This to doe saith Paulus Aemilius mine author also in the rest of this history they thought to be a wretched ●e pitifull thing yet they executed his cōmandement cursing the head of Simon they begin with their owne hands to make their country naked of hir wals they thēselues making thēselues subiect vnto all iniury Nether did that seme to be the greatest of their euils for Simon both because his purse was well emptied through the charges of the warres and also then he might throughly ●ame them being afflicted with miseries and manyfould mischiefes sendeth about collectors and coactors to leuie a mightie masse of money of the country It is strange that nature hath so ordained that euery mans priuate damages doe moue him more then the publicke sorrowe neyther can their be any sharper weapon found then that of money They which at his commandement ouerthrew their country could not endure the losse of their purse So that the warre that was saide p●●●●ched to haue bene taken in hand kept for godes cause and might haue bene ended by sparing of them that had yelde● and by dessēbling of things past was made now more hard to be ended through vnmercifull dealing Dores were broken open distresses were taken sighing shriking sorrowing weping wailing of men women were harde in euery house At length sorrow being turned into anger the olde Earle being then in hope of alteration had returned out of Spaine whither he fled after his discomfiture in battell was receiued of the Cyty of Tolouse and other Cyties there aboutes the byshoppes whom Simon had restored were driuen out againe because the multitude thought them to fauour him Then Aemilius seemeth to exclame against the wickednesse of this Canon in giuing principalities to strangers and sheweth how hurtfull it is to gods cause for the aduancement whereof it is supposed to be made thus saying Nihil in sacris bellis perinde obfuit atque mos iam exortus vt honesta proscriptione suas quisque respiciat res in ore omnium sanctū piumque versetur consilio conatu animo secus afficiantur S● de religione tantum agaetur si obliuio noxae sanciatur si sanatis mentibus fortunis hominum abstineatur omnes idem sentiant nūc de mortalium iure de comitatures est ea controuersia tollatur nulla erit armorum causa c. Nothing hath done so much hurt in the sacred warres as a custome that is now come vp that euery man doth by honest prescription regard and respect his owne that in all their mouthes is hearde holy and godly but in drift doings and in hearte they are otherwise affected If the matter be onely for religion if it be decreed that the fault be forgotten and forgiuen if when mens harts are healed their goodes be abstained from let them be all of one minde Now the matter in hande is about the right of men and about an Earledome let that controuersy be taken away and there is no cause of warres Ramond requesteth his auncient patrimony Simon holdeth fast that which he hath gotten by Armes the gifte of the counsell the benefite of the king of France These men are ●●●de●ill onely of there owne But the Pope because the matter had once before beene adiudged doth thinke it to stande with his constancie and with religion to haue the ordinances of their fathers to abide stable and his owne decrees inuiolable c. Thus the wise Barrons saw and wee also may that the warres in the Earledome of Towlose had ceased when the cause ceased that is when the Albigenses were expelled and the Catholickes Romaine restored if it had not bene for this decree of the Counsell that had adiudged the Earledome vnto Monssort which now seeing they were not contented with the reformation of the Earledome and the Earle continued manie yeares after almost to the vtter destruction of the Country and also the death of Simon who eight yeares after was in that quarrell slaine at the seige of Tolowse But there sonnes Almericke and Ramond continued theyr fathers contention When Almericke findeing himselfe to weake did three yeares after make ouer his right vnto Lewis the eight the French King for to bee created Constable of France Lewes wanne Aninion by assault yet dyed before hee could accomplish his conquest and his widdowe and regent of his young sonne followed the quarrell and at length ended it by composition that Alphonse hir younger sonne should marry with the sole doughter and heyre of the Earle and enioy his earledome after his disease this happened Anno 1235 nyneteene yeares after that all warres for religion had ended Soe greate a good had the first execution of this Canon wrought I haue dwelt the longer in the narration of this history for to shew the inconuenience of this Canon and also to set before the eyes of my Catholicke Countrimen what curtsie they and theirs are like to finde at the handes of a forreyne Catholike Prince if any should vnhappely which God of his vnmeasurable mercy forbidde and my hande shaketh to write through their wicked and pernicious treason obtaine the conquest of this kingdome But the english nobilitie that liued at the counsell at Latarane could not forget the wretched wracke and wast that a conquest bringeth and the slauery misery and the extremity and cursed calamities that the accepting of a forreine prince inferreth and enforceth who then kept wofull warres receiued from their auncesters by many discents for their auncient lawes and liberties of whom they had beene cruelly spoyled by the conqerour his successors and also deliuered them vnto their posteritys almost to the destruction of the bloud Royall well neere to the vtter ruine of their owne howses and the lamentable shipwracke of their deare country Yea and what regard the nobilitie and people of this Land had then of any decree and Canon made by the Pope touching any temporall matter it doth planely appeare by Mathew of Paris who writeth that when the Pope had sent Bulles of discharge of the Kinges oth and graunt of their auncient lawes and liberties and also excommunication against the Barrons and their adherents that did attēpt to force King Iohn to the performance of them The Barons would not obey them but all men generally and as it were with one mouth saide that the Bulles were of no moment because the ordering of laye matters did not appertaine vnto the Pope For that onely the power to dispose of Church matters was giuen by our Lord vnto Peter and his successors What meanes the insatiable couetousnesse of the Romaines to stretch out it selfe vnto vs what haue Apostolicke Byshoppes to doe with warres
London are an hunded times more hotte to haue one hanged that hath slaine the basest Yeoman of theires then another that hath murdered his maister or the best noble man within the land Iames the fourth the Scottish King flew his father in the feilde and had noething said vnto him therefore but was excommunicated for aiding of his auncient Alie the french King whome the Pope loued not neither could his lamentable losse of life in that quarrel quench the Popes Choler but that he persecuted him when he was deade long time denyning his deade body buriall but yet that is noe sinne against the holy ghost for to aide on denounced a scismatike by the Pope nor to beare armes against the captaine of a croysy it doth appeare by that we doe reade in Mariners his historie of Spayne when Peter the king of Aragon comming to ayde the Earle of Tolouse and the Albigenses against whom the Pope had sent a croysy was slaine in battell by the Earle of Monsfort generall of the Croysy and that he would not deliuer Iames the sonne of Peter who was brought vp with him and shoulde haue maried his daughter but for this mischance vnlesse he would sweare that he would not reuenge his fathers death the Pope vpon complaint forced Monsfort by sharpe censures of excommunication to set him at libertie without any such promise that the Pope it was Iuno Centius the third might shew that he was annother God that woulde haue mercy where he woulde and be mercifull to whome it pleased him and that he doth nothing of desert but all motu proprio as they vse to say but yet perhappes he shewed grace vnto Iames for his fathers Peters sake who had purchased before hand his pardon for dying in the feilde in the succour of a scismaticke and heretike by being crowned at Rome by the Pope with a crowne made of singing breade or wafers and by graunting vnto the Pope the right to present vnto all ecclesiasticall lyuings But to returne againe to the deposing of Princes Iohn King Iohn the king of this land bereft both of kingdome and life Arthur his elder brothers sonne who had bene ordained and proclamed here apparant by common consent and kept his Sister with duble iniury in perpetuall prison and escaped scotfree at the Popes handes but when he would not accept for Archbishoppe Simon Langton a Cardinall of the Church of Rome aduanced to that office through the Popes extraordinary dealing hee had his whole realme interdicted which sustained no harme for accepting him for King against right and also himselfe was deposed therefore And what reason was there but that the King might aswell maintaine for Archbyshoppe the Byshoppe of Norwich the faithfull president of his counsell and a man whom the Pope coulde not iustly mislike being first chosen at Ganterburye by the Prior almost the whole couent as the Pope Simon Langton his Cardinall chosen after the other at Rome by a few of the couent that I may omitte that noe Byshop could euer be chosen in this realm without the Kings licence nor being chosen counted Byshoppe before the King had confirmed him And if the Pope said that the couent chose Norwitch at Canterbury for feare of the King because they had first elected their superior might not the King as truely say that they chose Langton at Rome for feare of the Pope for did he not force them to a new election yea threatned them who were afraid of the kings displeasure if they chose not Langton if Langton was an ill man why was the Pope so importunate to haue him Archbyshop if he were a good man why did that Pope shortly after himselfe excommunicate him what bare rule here but flesh bloud Did Langton so farre passe Norwich that hee would do more good to the Church of England then Norwich could do if he were placed Archbishoppe then the ceasing of all publicke seruice of God administration of the sacred Sacraments for the space of six years for so long the interdict lasteth thoughout the whole land could do harme how many soules may a mā probably think were lost through this long irreligiousnes which otherwise might haue bene saued I omit the great murdering of priests the banishing of Byshoppes the rasing of Abbes Churches Chappels the manifould miseries massacres wasts that I know not whether this more wilful or wofull interdict brought vnto this whol land But ye wil say that before the land was interdicted the king had driuen out of the land the monks of Canterbury seased on al their land goods And afterward did the like to the Byshops that published the interdict And also turned out of al such of the religious spiritual persōs as did fauour the Popes procedings all this before he was deposed by the Pope But yet all these mischieues proceeded of the Popes indirect dealing to make his Cardinall Archbyshop and if the Pope woulde haue relinquished that action the king had soon bene appeased And can any indifferent man thing that the king had not iust cause to bee displeased with the Couent of Canterbury who first chose scecretly in the night without his congedelier there Superior Archbishoppe and also priuilye sent him to Rome without the kings notice to be confirmed of the Pope and then misliking of their owne doings elected with the Kings licence his fauourite Norwich whom they afterward reiected without the kinges licence chose at Rome Langton one whom the King knew not And did not the Pope offer the King such a wrong as hath bene done neuer before nor since that time to cause the couent to choose a Byshoppe without the Kinges congedelier that to at Rome by a few of the couent sent thither in messages without their Pryor And if ye doe thinke the king dealt rigourously in banishing the Byshoppes that interdicted the land and in ceasing on their goodes that fauoured the Popes actions How can you excuse the Popes cruelty in interdicting the whole land whereof one halfe did take his part And faine would I know of you whether it proceded of charitie that the Pope woulde not release his interdict and censures when the King offred to receiue Langton See Mathew of Paris restore the banished men and fully to satisfy all men for theire losses vnlesse he would also become his vassall and make his realmes of England and Ireland tributarie for euer vnto the see of Rome was this charitie or couetousnes and ambition And againe came this of Charitie that the Pope who stoode so stiffe for the restitution of the losses of the clergie before the king had subiected himselfe and his Realmes vnto him did after that his owne turne was serued force the Byshoppes to take halfe their due and the rest of the clergie to beare their owne damages without one penny of recompence And yet see more partialitie in this Pope First he excommunicated deposed the king