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A43300 Persecution for religion judg'd and condemned in a discourse between an antichristian and a Christian : proving by the law of God and of the land, and by King James his many testimonies, that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegiance by the oath appointed by law. Helveys, Thomas, 1550?-1616? 1662 (1662) Wing H1413A; ESTC R30775 68,908 82

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man would not be deceived by them nor plead for them but because they teach many Truths people receive them But first for whatsoever they teach they neither could nor should teach publickly their mouths should be stopped if they received not that their power to teach such Truths from those the Dragon sends and therefore none can receive those Truths from them but they receive the Devil by whose power they teach for as our Saviour saith Mat. 10.40 He that receiveth you receiveth me and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me So he that receiveth those the Beast sends receiveth the Beast and he that receiveth the Beast receiveth him that sent him that is the Devil Further. Did not that Southsayer Balaam teach excellent Truths Numb 23 24 chapters Yea the Southsayers of the Philistims the like 1 Sam. 6. Yea Those in the Gospel preach in Christs Name Mat. 7.22 As many moe testimonies might be manifested And secondly For their bringing of people to Reformation and therein doing great works Did not the Southsayers before recited 1 Sam. 6. shew the Princes their sin in detaining Gods Ark and the judgments against them for the same exhorting them to send it away and not to harden their hearts as Pharoah and the Egyptians hardned their hearts And was not Reformation wrought hereby And did not they that preached in Christs Name cast out Devils and do many and great works of whom our Saviour testifieth he never acknowledged them But let us a little consider wherein the Reformation consistech procured by their preaching in Drunkenness Whoredom Swearing c. moral duties which things whosoever is not reformed in shall never see Gods Kingdom yet which things many of the Philosophers that knew not God abounded in as they that know the Stories cannot deny But do they teach their hearers to hate vain inventions and love God's Law In a general manner of teaching they may but if it come to particular practice you shall see what they will do Do they teach any to submit to that one Law-giver Christ Jesus for the guidance of his Church and not to Antichrists Abominations No they will tell you you must sigh and groan till the Magistrate will reform for you are a private person and must be subject And if the powerful working of Gods Word and Spirit prevail in you to let you see that the Magistrates not reforming will not excuse you at the day of account but that that soul that committeth abomination shall dye and that rather than you will worship the Beast or his Image you will suffer with Christ peaceably separating your self from such open prophanation as neither can nor will be reformed endeavouring to square your self both in your entrance and walking in Christs way unto that golden Rule that he hath left for direction then the best of all those Preachers and Reformers will be hot and bitter labouring with all the turning of devices to turn you and withhold you from Reformation And if they cannot prevail hereby then publish you in their priviledged Pulpits where none may answer them You are a Schismatick Brownist Anabaptist and what not to make the multitude abhor your doings and not to follow you therein and some of them if not all under a colour procure your Imprisonment and trouble by their Canonized Lords or some of their hellish Pursevants And such Preachers of Reformation are the best of them all Indif Oh how have we been besotted in these things for want of true knowledge and understanding from the Scriptures how have I and others satisfied our selves with these things in that our estate was happy perswading our selves thereof when alas our fear towards God was taught by the inventions of men but the reason thereof was we judged our selves by our own perswasions and not by Gods Word Ch. I pray you let not that seem strange unto you that people should perswade themselves of their good estate with God when it is not so The Israelites Gods People thought their estate good many times when alas it was otherwise as the Prophets declared unto them yea our Saviour testifieth that they boasted of God being their Father when they not so much as knew him Joh. 8.19 yea when they were of their father the Devil ver 44. The five foolish Virgins thought their condition good enough and that they should have been let in but it was otherwise Luke 20. The wicked thought they did God service that killed Christs Disciples Joh. 16.2 Mans heart is deceitful Jer. 17.9 Who are more confident of their good estate with God than the Papists notwithstanding all their gross abominations Even so have you and I God pardon us thought beyond all that we were in a good estate having such zealous Teachers that teach so many excellent Truths under the title of Christs Ministers till we came to examine them as the Church of Ephesus did Rev. 2. then we found them to have no other Ministry than that they received from the Beast and his Image which the Dragon gave Rev. 13. Indif Are all without exception in this fearful estate to be case into the Lake that burneth with fire and brimstone Ch. All that submit obey or worship the Beast without exception for there is no respect of persons with God So saith the Lord If any man worship c. These worshippers under the Beast's Image may be divided into two sorts First those that ignorantly perswade themselves that all that is practised is good and acceptable to God Secondly those that see and acknowledge many things to be evil which they would gladly have removed but because they cannot without the Crosss of Christ partly for that and partly by the perswasion of their Prophets that the things are not fundamental and the like pretences all submit and teach men so Indif Some affirm There be thousands in England that never worshipped the Beast c. but be careful to keep the Commandments of God and Faith of Jesus Ch. Such are not under these Judgments but if their meaning be of any that submit to these Ordinances appointed for these Assemblies such Teachers preach peace when there is none strengthen the wicked that they cannot return from their wicked way by promising them life whose reward shall be according to the reward of such false Prophets Ezek. 13.1 and chap. 14.10 because they follow their own spirit and have not received it from the Lord for thus saith the Lord Such shall drink of the Wine of the Wrath of God Indif It is also affirmed by some That in respect of personal graces some of the Professors as they are called are the Children of God and may be communicated with privately though in respect of their Church actions they are members of Antichrists body to whom are Judgments of God appertaineth Ch. This opinion proceedeth not from Gods Word but from man's vain heart by the suggestion of the Devil which that it may evidently appear let us
a little consider of it In truth it is to say that in one respect they have Gods Promises appertaining to them in another respect they have Gods most fearful Torments pronounced against that Beast and that false Prophet Rev. 19.20 appertaining to them In one respect they are Gods People serving Him their Master in another respect the Devils people serving him their master In one respect they shall be saved in another respect they shall be damned But what false doctrine this is Gods holy Word doth discover Our Saviour saith No man can serve two masters ye cannot serve God and Riches Mat. 6.25 And can any serve Christ and the Beast God and the Dragon When Christ shall come at the last day to give to every man according to his works will he say to any one In respect of thy personal graces I will save thee Come thou blessed as he will say to all his Children But in respect of thy being a member of Antichrists body I will damn thee Go thou cursed as he will to all that worship or obey the Beast Will not Christ Jesus pronounce absolutely either Salvation or Condemnation to every one and that according to this word Joh. 12.48 so as God in his Righteousness will either justifie or condemn every man So hath He taught us to know that no Fountain can make salt water and sweet Jam. 3.12 And therefore that by mens fruits we should know and judge them to be not both good and evil trees at one time as this opinion teacheth but either good or evil alwayes taking heed we justifie not the wicked nor condemn the innocent both which are abominable to the Lord And for any communion whatsoever with them What fellowship hath Christ with Antichrist the Righteous with the Wicked the Servants of the Lamb with the servants of the Beast But I leave this for further answer to thse who although they are nearer to this man that hath published this opinion than I am yet hath according to truth confessed in writing That there is nothing to be expected from Christ by any member of the Church of England but a pouring out of his eternal Wrath upon them Mr. De-Cluse Advertis pag. 9. Indif Well I praise God I am much informed in these things yet one thing more I will desire your answer unto The case standeth thus with me In these things I am betwixt faith and doubting though the rather I believe these things you say are true and that I may never go to these Assemblies again without sin but I am not so perswaded thereof that I dare suffer for it What if I should not having Faith to suffer for fear of persecution go to their Worship again Ch. It were your most fearful sin which I prove thus and I pray you observe it well You must do it either as being verily perswaded you do well and then all this beginning of Light in you should be extinguished and so your estate is with the worst if not worse or else you must do it doubting whether you do well or no For I hope you will not say you do it knowing you do evil If you do it doubting the Lord saith It is sin Rom. 14.23 which I hope you will acknowledge and not approve your self to do well in sinning and then God is merciful to forgive your sin either this or any other 1 Joh. 1.9 But if you say you sin not therein doing it doubtingly you make God a lyar who saith It is sin and your sin remaineth Indif What if I should many times go through weakness Ch. If you unfainedly repent being through weakness there is mercy with God though it should be seventy times seven times in a day Mat 18.21 22. But we had need to take heed of our repentance The Apostle saith where there is godly sorrow for sin what Care it worketh in you yea what Indignation c. 2 Cor. 7. and custom in sin is dangerous we had need to take heed we be not hardned through the deceitfulness of sin Heb. 3.13 Indif Then you hold that if any man approve himself in sinning his sin remaineth Ch. If any man sin and say he hath not sinned there is no truth in him 1 Joh. 1.8 and God will enter into judgment with him Jer. 2.35 Indif Then absolutely I see that if any man worship the Beast or his Image c. as before you have shewed he neither hath Faith nor Fear of God in him what shew of Godliness soever he maketh But what say you may not a man that separateth from all uncleanness though he yet see not the way of Christ in his Ordinances may not such a man be saved Ch. Yes upon this condition that he believe in Jesus Christ for his only Righteousness and be willing and ready to hear and obey his Ordinances an example hereof we have in Cornelius Acts 10. But if any will not hear that Prophet Christ Jesus in all things whatsoever he shall say unto them they shall be destroyed out of his People Acts 3.22 23. Indif What do you mean by will not hear Ch. That when any part of the Way of God is manifested to them they despise and contemn it or carelesly neglect it otherwise men may not receive some of Christs Truth and yet not be said that they will not receive it Indif Next after forsaking the wayes of wickedness and imbracing Christ for our Righteousness what must we do Ch. Christs whole Testament teacheth this and no other way after repentence from dead works and faith towards God to be baptized with water Matth. 16.16 Acts 2.41 and 8.12 38. and 9.18 and a cloud of witnesses calling these the beginnings of Christ and foundation Heb. 6.1 c. Indif May none be admitted to the Church to partake in the Ordinances except they be baptized Ch. If any teach otherwise he presumeth above what is written 1 Cor. 4.6 and therefore ought to be held accursed Gal. 1.8 9. For there was never true Church since Christ was manifested in the flesh joyned together of unbaptized persons though some have vainly published the contrary Indif True I think that cannot be denyed where the persons were never baptized but now the members of the Church of Rome from whence the Baptism of the Church of England cometh are baptized Therefore why need they again be baptized Ch. If they be baptized with Christs Baptism I will acknowledge they need not again be baptized but that the Baptism of the Church of Rome is Christs Baptism that can never be proved for Christ requireth that only his Disciple should baptize his Disciple and into his Body none of which is in Romes baptism For Christs adversaries wash with water those that are not Christs Disciples into the body not of Christ but of Antichrist Indif I confess that the Church of Rome and members thereof are the Church and members of Antichrist but they use the water and words in their Baptism that