thre wurshypfull wytnesses whiche stand yet all vnsworne that is to wyt Some saye and They say Folke say And than hath he now brought forth other two whome he maketh as me semeth bothe as wytnesses iudges to that is the good sely sowle Symkyn Salem and his ryght honest neyghbour brother Byzance Well I am content I y t all his fyue wytnesses be sworeÌ„ wel examined how they know the thyngê that they reporte than those spyrytuall iudges of whom they shall so speke and proue set it be layed vnto theyr charges And yf you fynde of suche so many and theyr dealynge so cruell or vniuste as this man maketh it or any thynge well towarde it than am I content that ye shall for them byleue all the remanauÌ„t the wurse And yet is y t I wysse somwhat with the most And than am I content that you byleue also that this man had for that cause a necessary occasion and a profytable to put y t tale in his bate makynge boke ¶ But in the mene whyle I laye agaynste hym for y t point and agaynst all his fyue wurshypfull wytnesses to the dede the reporte of y e gretest and the moste honorable temporall lordes of the kynges most honorable counsayle and other ryght wurshypfull temporall men of the same with them whiche by the gracyouse commauÌ„dement of the kinges hyghnesse haue examyned dyuerse suche complayntes at the suit of y e partyes theÌ„ selfe and theyr frendes haue theruppon founden the same complayntê false that thordynaryes haue done them but ryght and that wyth great fauour to ¶ And therfore as for thys poynte the treuthe beynge so substancyally proued vppon this syde by all hys fyue forenamed wytnesses on the tother syde sette I not fyue strawes And therfore good reders as for this poynt his puttynge of that pyece in hys boke of diuisyon had neyther necessyte nor profyte excepte it were eyther necessary or profytable to sow a euyll sede agaynste good folke of vntrew reprouable slaunder in hys owne wrytynge vnder the colour of some other meÌ„nes vnproued wordê ¶ Than resteth there as farre as I can se but one cause byhynde y t shold excuse hym And that is that it was a thynge profytable for the people to know that though a man of a lyghtnesse or of a passyon growynge of ignoraunce or of frayltye speke and â—alke heresyes at lybertye yet but yf he defende it opinatyuely he shold not be taken for an heretyke therby Deryly good readers yf thys tale were trewe yet wolde I wene as I sayde this tale vnto the people as good vnwryten as wryten a great dele better to ¶ As for thys good man or any man ellys I can not let theym to wryte what they lyste and saye they thynke it good be it neuer so badde in dede But I durste in my conscyence no more vse thys fashyon of wrytynge concernynge heresye than I wolde vse it in wrytynge any boke wherof I wolde speke of eyther treason or any other felony excepte some other necessary occasyon sholde happely dryue me therto as no good occasyon in hys booke of dyuysyon droue this good man therto ¶ If I were agayne to reade in Lyncolns Ine there were in hande wyth a statute that touched treason and all other felonyes I wolde not let to loke seke out and reherse whyther any heyghnouse wordes spoken agaynst the prynce were for the onely spekynge to be taken for treason or not ¶ Nor I wolde not let in lyke wyse to declare if I founde out any casyâ— in whyche a man though he toke an other mannes horse agaynst the law sholde yet not be iudged for a felon therby And this wolde I not onely be bolde there to tell them but wolde also be bolde in such french as is peculiare to the lawys of this realme to leue it wyth them in wrytynge to But yet wold I reken my selfe sorâ— ouer sene yf all suche thynges as I wolde in that scole speke in a redyng I wolde in englysh into euery mannys hand put out abrode in prent For there is no such necessyte therin as is in the tother For in y e places of court these coÌ„panies must nedes be taught it oute of whyche companyes they must after be taken that shal be made iudges to iudge it But as for the comon people to be tolde that tale shall as farre as I se do many folke lytell good but rather very great harme For by perceyuyng that in some thinges were no thynge the perell that they ferede some may waxe therin more neglygent and by lesse ferynge y e lesse dayngeour may soone steppe into the more And therfore haue I wyste ere thys the iudges of a great wysedome in great open audyence where they haue hadde occasyon to speke of hyghe mysseprisyon or of treason forbere yet the sayenge of some suche thynges as they wolde not haue letted to speke among them selfe ¶ If any man wold happely thynke that it were well done that euery maÌ„ were taught all and wollde aledge therfore that if he know surely what thynge wolde make hys behauour hygh treason or heresye than though he wolde aduenture all that euer were vnder that yet wold he be peraduenture the more ware to kepe hym selfe well from that as many a man though he byleue that he shall abyde greate payne in purgatory for hys venyall synnes dothe for all that no greate dylygence in forberynge of them and yet for y e feare of perpetuall payne in hell taketh very greate hede to kepe hym selfe frome those synnes that he surely knoweth for mortall ¶ As for suche venyall synnes as folke of fraylty so comenly do fall in that no man is almoste any tyme wythout theym though the profyte wolde be more yf men dyd wene they were mortall so that the drede therof coulde make menne vtterly forbere theym yet syth it wyll not be that men wyll vtterly forbere them the knowlege of the trouth is necessary for them leste euery tyme that they do suche a veniall synne in dede wenyng that it were mortall the doyng of the dede wyth the conscyence of a mortall synne myghte make it mortall in dede ¶ But of any such kynde of veniall synnes as be not so mych in custume and may be more easyly forborne I neuer founde any wyse man to my remembrauÌ„ce that wold eyther wryte or teche the comune peple so exactly as to say though you do thus farre yet is it no dedely synne but wyll in suche thynges syth the veniall synne it self is a drawyng toward y e dedely rather leue the people in dowt and in drede of dedely synne and thereby cause them to kepe them selfe farre of from it than by tellynge theym it is but a venyall synne make them the lesse aferde to do it and so come so myche the nerâ—r to mortall synne and assaye how nere he canne come to it and not do it tyll he come
there I shew also the reason wherfore and why And therfore I wene it wyl appere plain that I myssetake not the letter of his treatyse at all that his reason runneth out in dede agaynst euery kynde of men For there is neyther spyrytuall man nor temporall but he maye take harme by habundaunce But so is there as I there saye neyther spyrytuall man nor temporall but he maye wyth haboundaunce do good ¶ But nowe the declaracyon of his mynde in thys answere mendeth al the mater For here he declareth y t by these wordê of his in a maner stranglynge he meaneth the mynyshynge of some feruour as though a man wolde say that by almost killyng with a clubbe he ment the geuynge of a fylyppe in the forhed wyth his lytle fynger ¶ But syth that in this .vi. chapiteâ— of hys his great mortall stranglyng is nowe strangeled away and tourned into venyall synne we shall for this mater trouble you no leÌ„ger but eueryman maye take haly water and go home to dyner for seruyce is all done here for to day ¶ The counsayle of saynte Bernarde that he there speketh of to the pope Eugenius is in good fayth as me thynketh very well brought in And I wolde aduyse euery spiritual man to folowe yt and to take good temporal men to hym and let theym do all hys temporall besynesse for hym This thynke I good as for myne owne mynde but yf there be in any parte any lawes made all redy to the contrarye by suche folke as yt can not bycome me to contrall Howe be yt I suppose that myche parte of they re temporall besynesse is done by temporall men in dede ¶ As for his acte of parliament that he speketh of I suppose veryly that the clergye wolde not be agaynst yt And suche actes are there all redy made mo then one good and suffycyent but yf he meane to sette an addycyon therto that â—he kynges grace sholde expressely be bounden by the acte that yf he gaue any lycence of mortysynge into the chyrche yt shold be voyde excepte such cases as thys good man lyste to lymyte and geue hym leue Syth his hyghnes is now moued by this good maÌ„ here therto his grace may agre to it when yt pleaseth hym ¶ As for the great mater that he maketh of that I neuer in all the tyme that I was conuersaunt in the court could perceyue any of the noble men aboue the nombre of seuen and yet not nowe so many that euer thought yt good that any possessyons of the chyrche sholde wyth oute a lawfull cause be taken awaye there from I meruayle mych what he meaneth and what subtyll conceyte he conceyueth in his wyse breste that he so mutereth and muÌ„bleth vpon that word as though suche communicacyon eyther on the tone syde or the tother were of suche hygh importaunce that yt were eyther felonye or some heyghnouse mysprisyoÌ„ eyther in tellyng the tale agayn or els in kepyng yt counsayle so longe For I wote nere in good faythe in whyche of the twayne this good man fyndeth y e faute or whether he fynde any or none But yf he fynde any in which of the twayne so euer he fynd yt he fyndeth but his owne foly For nowe shall you good readers se what lytle insyght the man hath in any thyng that he readeth Fyrst he reherseth a parte of my wordê wryten in myne Apologye fo 130 where I saye that I neuer founde in all the tyme whyse I was conuersaunt in the courte of all the nobylyte of this lande aboue the nombre of seuen y t euer I perceyued to be of y â— mynd that yt were eyther ryght or reasonable or coulde be to the realme profytable wythout lawfull cause to take any possessyons awaye frome the clergye Nowe vpon these wordê ye shall se what he gathereth by whych ye shal se what wyt and what lernynge the man hath These are his wordes lo. Syth mayster More sayth that he hath not knowen aboue seuen wherof he sayth thre are dede that were of the mynde that yt were reasonable wythout cause to take possessyons fro the clergye in whyche wordes yt is coucluded that he knew seuen of that mynde whose opynyons yt lyketh hym to reherse and putte in writynge and in prynte also ¶ This man hath a special insyght in inclusyues and exclusyues when he weneth that in my wordes it were included that I knewe .vii. of that mynde that yt were reasonable to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche wythout cause My wordes you wote well that I neuer knewe aboue seuen that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche thought eyther ryght or resonable or that yt coulde be to the realme profytable What include these wordê now Do they include as he saith y â— I say that I knew .vii. y t thought yt reasonable Thys maÌ„ ys so connynge in hys inclusyues exclusyues that he dyscerneth nothynge bytwene compulatyues and dysiunctyuys This man I se well neuer lerned the rule that almoste euery boy can that to the veryte of a dysiunctyue yt suffyseth any one parte to be trew Let hym now lerne yt therfore and thenne shall he perceyue that my wordê include no farther but that I saye that I knewe seuen which among them all thought some one of those thre thynges that is to wyt eyther some of them some one and some of them some other or els al seueÌ„ some one of those thre thinges that is to wyt eyther ryght or reasonable or profytable wythoute any determynacyon whyche of the thre And neyther includeth those wordes of myne that I say all seuen thoughte yt ryght nor that all seuen thoughte yt reasonable no nor yet that all seuen thought yt profytable But yt hangeth not vppon hys determynacyon but vpon myn owne declaracyoÌ„ which of these thre thinges whyche of those same seuen thought or whyche one of the thre they all thoughte and neuer one of those thre thynges is determinately included to any one of the seuen For yf I wolde saye that I neuer knewe in all my lyfe any man aboue the nomber of seuen that had ben eyther at Alkayre or at Salem or at Bizance do these wordes include that I saye that I haue knowen seuen that haue ben at Salem That am I sure they do not But I maye well stande by those wordes yf I sayde after that I haue knowen seuen persons that haue bâ—n al seuen at Bizance but as for Alkayre or SaleÌ„ I neuer knewe any one that hadde ben at any one of them both ¶ And in lyke wyse wyll I well stande by myne other wordes and veryfye theym wyth a good excludyng of this mannes includyng For I say and very trouthe yt is that I neuer found any noble man aboue the nombre of seuen that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the clergye thought yt eyther ryght or reasonable or that yt coulde be for the realme profytable I founde
tyme with this good man entre in this mater in to seryouse ernest argumentes But I shall shew hym a good mery cause wherfore that though I be of hys mynde therin yet I dare not aduise them there to The cause is that I se them haue so greate desyre feruent concupyscence towarde it that I am aferde to counsayle theym folowe it bycause of the scrypture that sayth Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas After thy concupyscences goo thou not ¶ I wyll make no lenger tale vpon this mater For if you rede my .xxvii. chapyter in whyche my wordes are that we now dyspute vppon I truste you shall not thynke theym so very farre out of the way but y t they maye be wryten without offence of Chrystes gospell well inough ¶ And also concernynge this word proude worldely countenauÌ„ce wherof we speke here vouchesaufe good readers to rede my .xxx. chapyter of myne apologye whych begynneth in the lefe .174 The .xi. chapyter HIs .xi. chapyter begynneth in the xxxvi lefe wherin fyrst he sheweth y t I reherse ryght and constre amysse thys worde of his And therfore ¶ You shall fynde my wordes good readers vppon these whole wordes that he reherseth here in the .xxxiiii. and .xxxv. chapyter of myne apologye of whyche to tone begyyneth fo 183 the tother begynneth fo 184. ¶ Here this man declareth that the worde of his boke whyche here also he well trewly reherseth do not importe that hym selfe sayeth y e thyng whych I by those wordes and amoÌ„g other by thys worde therfore afferme there that he sayth as of hym selfe But he sayeth that the wordes proue playne that he sayeth yt but onely of the reporte of mych other folkes thynkynge and not as of hys owne sayenge ¶ Surely neyther nowe nor in any place of myne apologye I neyther haue done nor intende to charge thys man that his mynde purpose was suche in his intent as the great lykelyhed of his wordes wold geue men occasyon to thynke But vn the tother syde that the wordes haue geuyn me good occasyon and suffycyent to saye as I there haue sayde who so rede the sayd two chapyters of myne apologye shal by the whole cyrcumstauÌ„ce of the mater very wel I suppose perceyue And you shall ouer that yf after those two chapyters redde you retourne to his owne declaracyon here in hys .xi. chapyter wel perceyue also that to kouer slyly that ouersyghte of his for surely I thynke yt was none other he leueth oute properly in one place this worde therfore wheruppon a good pyece of all the mater hangeth For in the ende of the .xxvi. lefe so thus he handeleth wylyly the mater And in that he sayth that I saye playnely those wordeâ— my seflfe he sayth playnely agaynste the â—etter of the sayde treatyse whyche ye that they haue punished many persoÌ„â— which mych peple haue iudged them to do vppon wyll and not that I sayd so my selfe ¶ Now good readers in this rehersall of hys own worde he reherseth his own wordes wrong For here he leueth oute as I told you the worde that maketh the mater Whyche he rehersed hym self in the whole context before For his wordis were not that they haue punished many persons whych mych peple haue iuged them to do vpon wyl but that therfore they haue punyshed many persons whyche mych people haue iudged them to do vppon wyl c. Nowe when he sayth hym selfe that they haue punyshed many therfore that is to wyt for the same cause and hathe before also shewed a cause of his owne dyuynacyon to hath vsed the same word therfore in y e same fasshyon before and this worde therfore which sygnifyeth for the same cause hath here in his laste clause nonecessarye place to the complement of the sentence folowyng it appereth that he sayth therin two thynges bothe that they therfore that is to say for y e same cause next before spokeÌ„ of the cause y t him self ther imagineth haue punished many and also that as he sayth yt so myche people iudged the same ¶ And this shall you the more clerely marke yf you tourne these wordes And therfore they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. in to these wordê wherof the sentence is allone And for that cause they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. ¶ And therfore that is to saye for that cause whych I before told you that is to wyt that you shold not perceyue thys poynte this man in hys laste rehershall as you haue herde bryngynge the thynge to the tryall lefte his therfore oute But reade my sayd two chapyters than as for the sentence of his open wordes I trust you shall byleue me As for the secrete meanyng of his mynde I pray you byleue hym For so that you byleue not the shrewd wordes of hys boke I wolde to chose you sholde byleue well of the good man hym selfe ¶ Now where he saith in y e .xxxvii. lefe that he thynketh I chaunge his mater bycause I wolde be lothe to haue yt reported that myche people take yt so veryly I chaunge not his mater But trouth yt is y t I am loth to haue that thyng so reported about For trewly y e report abrode is nought all though yt were not vntrew ¶ And were as for the farther maintenaunce of hys mater he sayth that yf I make serche therin to knowe the trouthe I shall fynde that myche people take yt so that many whyche haue ben punyshed for heresye the spyrytualtye haue done yt of no loue but of wyll for such euyll mynde as in the booke ys there ymagyned of them he hath of lykelyhed hym selfe made serche to fynde yt so For as for me though I go not aboute to serche that poynte of purpose yet I haue talked wyth many one in this meane whyle yet I thaÌ„ke god it is not my fortune to fynde out that same mych people that take yt so And yf there were myche people that so dyd yt were they re owne faute wherin I can not deuyse what the spyrytualty myght do to chaunge theym but onely praye god to mende theym And as for me yf there were myche people that so toke yt as I truste in god veryly there is not I wolde as my dutye were be surely very sorye for theym but in thys cause of trouth trewely I wolde not flater theym For though that sorte of people were neuer so myche in dede yet is the trouth in that poynt so clere agaynste theym that yf they re myndes were suche yt were bothe great shame for theym to saye yt and also great synne to thynke yt ¶ And surely that they re sayenge ys false and noughte in hys owne secrete iudgement you maye se good reders by this y t he laboureth so sore to put yt from hym selfe and wolde be so lothe to haue yt taken for hys owne And therfore whyle hym selfe thought they re sayeng so false he sholde