Then were they good arguments verie same arguments for the maintenance of his Heresie that the Protestants Puritanes of this time do for confutation whereof this ancient Father vseth none other c His confutation is so much the worse argument but the Tradition and continuall practise of the Church I am sure although you doe d VVho told you so exclude out of your Church Epiphanius and all other ancient Fathers yet Aerius shall be receiued and entertained as an ancient and principall pillar thereof but be ye well aduised before you put him into your Kalender for he was also an e That 's not so soone prooued for Austine followed Epiphanius the first and onely author of it Arian hereticke as Saint Augustine recordeth but whatsoeuer he holdeth else it sufficeth if he iumpe with you in any thing against the Catholicke The Answere HEere comes in Epiphanius and the hereticke Aerius once againe to walke a turne or two vpon the stage howbeit it may well be doubted by what authoritie Aerius was dubbed an hereticke I am sure Mich. Medina a stout Papist saith De Sacr. homi orig conti lib. 1. cap. 5. that Ierom Ambrose Austine Sedutius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Aecumenius and Theophilact were of his opinion in the equalitie of ministers Againe Aerius was enemy to Eustathius an Arian and therfore if he had any desire to remooue him out of his Bishopricke Haeres 75. and to sit himselfe in his roome as Epiphanius reporteth there is no likelihood that hee would be an Arian himselfe but keepe himselfe cleere to accuse and condemne Eustathius of so capitall an heresie Againe the opinion of fasting vpon Sunday and condemning ordinary and set fasting dayes Lib. 2. cap. 33. is attributed to Eustathius in Socrates storie where wee read also that hee was twise condemned once in the councell of Caesarea Cappadociae by his owne father Eueanius and againe the second time in the Councell of Gangra in Paph agonia wherefore I perswade my selfe that Epiphanius mistooke iust reprehension for emulation and charged Aerius with the faults of Eustathius a double condemned hereticke and as very a Papist as euer Aerius was a Puritane Nuptias fieri prohibuit à cibis abstinendum docuit nonnullos qui nuptias contraxerant à connubio segregauit seruos simulatione pietatis dominis abstraxit benedictionem communionem presbyteri habentis vxorem tanquam scelus declinandum praecepit c. He forbad marriage taught to abstaine from meates some that had bene married he separated he drew seruants from their masters vnder colour of pietie he commanded to shunne that blessing and communion of an Elder that had a wife of an hainous wickednesse Call you not this papistrie call it what you will I am sure it is so and it is heresie too Concil Gangr by your leaue if a nathemasit pronounced by a lawfull Councell be sufficient to make an heresie shew me the like euidence against Aerius and I will confesse him to be an hereticke otherwise I must craue leaue to say of Epiphanius as Austine doth of Philastrius In praesat libri de haeres ad quod Multas assertiones inter haereses numerauit quae haereses non sunt Many assertions he counted for heresies which were not heresies Nay I will be bold to say further Multas assertiones haereses non numerauit quae haereses sunt Many assertions he counted not heresies which are heresies For he hath wittingly concealed the assertions of Eustathius 1. Tim. 4.1.3 which Paul cals doctrines of deuils Now to the Tradition which Epiphanius bringeth for praier for the dead I say in a word it is accepta à patribus i Receiued frō the Fathers not from the Apostles not ab Apostolis and therefore it hath no further credit then man can giue it yet notwithstanding prayer was then made not after the Popish fashion to ease the dead of the paines and torments of purgatorie but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing but liue and haue their being with the Lord which knockes out the braines of purgatorie for if men ought to beleeue that the dead for whom prayer is made doe viuere apud dominum Epiph. ibidem haeres 75. then may we not thinke that they doe viuere apud inferos in purgatorie but Epiphanius helps you with better store of reasons you heard the first namely quod credant mortuos esse viuere apud dominum That they beleeue that the dead are aliue with the Lord. The second Quod spes sit orantibus profratribus velut qui in peregrinatione sint That there is hope to them which pray for their brethren as to them which want in trauailing The third Quo id quod perfectius est significetur To the end that which is more perfect may be signified The fourth Vt Dominum Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separent that they may separate the Lord Iesus from the order and state of bare men The fifth Vt adorationem domino praestent That they may yeeld adoration to the Lord. The sixt and last he sets downe in the words wee haue in hand Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta The Church doth this by tradition receiued from the fathers Howbeit the fathers tradition was no more but memoriam facite keepe a memory Lib. 1. epist 9. et lib. 3. epist 3. As we may see euidently in Cyprian whereunto was added by further curiositie Misericordiam Dei implorate Begge mercy of God And at length Masses and Indulgences and oblations and satisfactions and a whole flood of pickepurse inuentiōs yea but may it be said memoriam facite is little worth without misericordiam implorate yes by your leaue for so the Church thought good to animate and incourage the liuing to stand constant in persecution and not to reuolt for feare from Christian profession and touching the crauing of mercy for sinners departed which the Church vsed to doe most were in Epiphanius time you heard before all the reasons that Epiphanius could yeeld and if you looke for more or better you must search else where for Epiphanius cannot helpe you but hurt you for when he saith preces prosunt etsi totam culpam non abscindant prayers profit though they cut not off the whole fault He marres the fashion of purgatory where sinnes are not forgiuen but punished to be short if you peruse the words of Aerius you shall soone find that he neuer heard of purgatorian doctrine for when he obiecteth that if prayer profite the dead men need not liue godly or doe any good thing in their life time but purchase friends to pray that their incurable sinnes may bee layd to their charge it is most cleere hee knew not that prayer is not auaileable where there is no former merite and that veniall not mortall or incurable sinnes are purged by the suffrages of the liuing The
commemorat fluuius igneus currebat ante eum transibunt c. They which haue done things worthie temporall paines of whom the Apostle saith If any mans worke burne he shall suffer losse but he shall be saued yet so as it were by fire shall passe through the riuer of fire which the words of the Prophet mention and a riuer of fire ranne before him You see here that Pauls place is alleaged for nothing els but to shew that some doe things worthie of temporall paines which we denie not nay we will graunt further that our workes shall abide a fierie triall yet the fire that trieth euery mans worke is not a fire by nature but by metaphore and if it be metaphoricall any where it must be so chiefly there where it is slaked with sic tamen yet so quailed with quasi as it were Now where this Austine saith further that these temporallists shall passe through that fierie streame which the Prophet speaketh of Dan. 7.10 though I might answere that they may so passe Absque vlla violatione without any hurt as hath bin seene before yet looke the place in Daniels Prophesie you shal soone find that the Prophet speakes there not of a fiery flood that was indeed really but which he saw in a vision he saw in the same vision the ancient of dayes that is God himselfe sit vpon a fiery throne in white apparel the haire of his head like pure wooll yet I trow no man will therfore imagine that God sits in purgatorie or weares apparell or hath either head or haire moreouer the horned beast that spake presumptuously against God and his Saints was slaine and his body was throwne into this fire I hope purgatorie fire was neuer made for bodies but for soules neither yet for blaspheming tyrants but for pidling offences of small moment There is another place out of Ezechiel which this pretended Austine dragges in whether the Prophet will or no Cap. 24. to countenance purgatorie for whereas the holy Ghost euidently compareth the citie of Ierusalem to an emptie pot or kettle set vpon the hot coles of Gods wrath to the intent that her filthinesse might be consumed he will needes outface vs that the scripture compareth a sinfull soule to this pot saying Sermo diuinus quodam in loco ellae animam peccatricem comparat and then cries out amaine Illic sermones otiosi cogitationes iniquae illic multitudo leuum peccatum illic stannum vel plumbū diuersorum subrepentina delictorum consumentur c. There idle speeches and wicked thoughts there the multitude of light sinnes there the tinne or lead of diuers secret sinnes shall be consumed Yet the great Gregorie tels vs that they cannot be saued by fire which build ferrum Dial. lib. 4. cap. 39. aes plumbum iron brasse lead vpon the foundation for by these he vnderstandeth peccata maiora duriora insolubilia greater harder or pardonable sinnes and to say the trueth such were the sinnes of Ierusalem which Ezechiel speakes of and therefore no meat for purgatorie to feede on The Dialogue Sectio XII SAint Ambrose This ancient father expounding the same place of S. Paul saith thus he shall be saued because the a He consisteth of body and soule but both I trow belong not to purgatory substance whereon he consisteth shall not perish as his euill doctrine shall because an accident is the cause and therefore the Apostle sayd yet as it were by fire because this saluation is not without punishment he said not he shall be saued by fire as if by b I trow he may escape purgatory by merits his merite he should remaine vnburned being examined by fire but when he saith yet as it were by fire he sheweth that hée shall be saued and yet receiue c In this world not in Purgatory punishment that being purged by fire he may be saued and not punished with the damned in eternall fire The Answere AMbrose conuerted S. Austine and therefore I trow they expound S. Paul both alike and indeed Ambrose here is cleere against Purgatory and must be vnderstood for ought I yet see of the fierie tryall and afflictions of this life 1. Pet. 1.7 for tell me what substance doth a false teacher consist of doth he not consist as other men doe of body and soule why then his substance whereof he consisteth is neither examined nor punished in purgatory fire which toucheth not the body but by that same animi dolor griefe of mind which Austine speakes of moreouer Ambrose here excludes merite saying that his merite cannot so saue him from burning but he must needs receyue punishment that he may be saued which cannot be vnderstood of the paynes of Purgatory for they may be redeemed by the merits of this life if you will beleeue counterfet Austine De Sanctis serm 41. Hmil 16. totis viribus vnusquisque laboret vt minuta peccata possit ita bonis operibus redimire vt de ipsis nihil videatur remanere quod ille ignis possit absumere and againe Illic multitudo lenium peccatorum consumētur quae hic ab anima separari per eleemosynas lachrymas compendiosa transactione potuissent Let euerie man labour with all his might that hee may redeeme his small sinnes with good workes that there may seeme nothing to remaine of them which that fire may consume There the multitude of light sinnes shall bee consumed which might easily haue bin separated from the soule by almes and tears Againe Ambrose applieth Pauls words to false teachers whose euill doctrine shall perish as hee saith and indeede Paul speakes of the Doctors of Corinth and of their faults in teaching and therefore if there be a purgatory to be found here it must be a purgatory for preachers and teachers of euill doctrine Bellarm. de purg lib. 1. cap 4. Mat. 5.19 not for euery one that commits a smal pidling offence and hath payd all but a few farthings now where it is said that there is the same reason of other mens sinnes I doubt they teach euil doctrine that say so and so make them selues thrall to purgatory for he that breaketh the least commandement which Papists count but a veniall slip and teacheth men so shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen saith our Sauiour teaching vs that the sinne of a teacher and of another ordinary man euen in small things differ much and may not be ballanced with the same weights for to breake and teach is a greater offence by much then to breake onely and so the one may goe to heauen without trouble when the other must sticke in the bryers and stand vpon his purgation So then this place of Ambrose you see is like a Carpentars toole called a twibill which when a man hewes with the one ende of it is ready to pecke out his eyes with the other and this did Bellarmine see wel inough for he cuts
him Thirdly wee must vnderstand that those legall impure things were not so all of them in their owne nature but so layd apart by Gods lawe as vncleane to signifie the inward puritie that God required in the soules and spirites of them that approached vnto him for there is no other reason of worth why a Conie Leuit. cap. 11. or a Hare should be more vncleane than a Bull or a Cow or why a Duck or a Goose should be more pure than a Swan or a Hernshaw And this appeareth by the generalitie of Gods graunt or Patent giuen to Noah Genes 9.3 and his Sonnes in the ninth of Genesis Now this outward bodily puritie was requisite in all that medled with Gods mysteries both priest and people 1. Sam. 21 4. Exod. 19.15 as that noble priest Abimelech teacheth who would not suffer Dauid and his men to eat of the hallowed bread of God vnlesse they had beene cleere before for some good time from the companie of their wiues Here-hence then we learne three things first that as meat so marriage of it selfe polluted not no not in time of the law but because the ceremonial law which then had place had so appointed Secondly that if it were to bee obserued still in this point of companying with wiues then not onely the Priest that ministreth but the people that receiueth should bee subiect vnto it nay rather the people than the priest because the priest hath no such particular commaundement And thirdly that outward cleanesse appointed in the law Lib. 1. Epist 4. signified inward puritie and so Cyprian applyeth it in one of his Epistles Now those outward shadowes hauing serued out their prentiship are now made free and may not still be counted shadowes vnder the Gospel wherin the thing signified by them is required of God with open face without any ceremoniall obscuritie Imagines transeunt admipletae Tertul. de Monog definitiones permanent adimplendae imagines prophetant definitiones gubernant the figures passe away being fulfilled or definitions remaine to be fulfilled that figures prophecie but the definitions gouerne Cap. 21 17. c. There be a number of blemishes reckoned vp in Leuiticus whereby the seed of Aaron was made vncapable of offering the bread of his God yet haue they no place in the ministerie of the Gospell further than to signifie how free it should be from the blemishes of the soule But to send Ambrose away with his quietus est 1. Cor. 23 24 c. Exod. 30.7 8. wee must vnderstand that before Dauid in the end of his raigne appointed the courses and orders of the Priests and Leuites the high Priest himselfe was to offer incense morning and euening and otherwise to minister in the tabernacle yet is it cleere that hee abstained not from his wiues companie Quest 82. but begate Sonnes and Daughrers and this doth Austine acknowledge vpon Leuiticus where hee demaundeth how the high Priest could offer incense dayly morning and euening which by reason of sicknesse incident and the duetie of marriage hee must intermit and then he answereth that God might preserue him in health for his seruice and that the high Priest might haue prerogatiue aboue other men not to bee defiled by the act of matrimonie yet this last answere pleased him not Retract lib. 2. and therefore in his retractations he saith that the high Priest after morning Sacrifice might vse his wife and then wash his clothes and purifie himselfe against the euening which vtterly defaceth Ambroses argument for if the Priests vnder the law had such a prerogatiue as the act of matrimonie could not make them vncleane or being made vncleane in the morning might so hastily purifie themselues before euening then verily their example yeeldeth no reason against the marriage either of popish Priests or our Ministers The Dialogue Sectio XXI SAint a This Chrysostome was neuer Bishop of Constantinople Chrysostome Honorabiles inquit sunt nuptiae cubile thorum immaculatum c. Marriage is honourable saith he and the marriage bed vndefiled but fornicators and adulterers God will iudge but now the priuiledge of mariage cannot excuse thée for he that hath once ioyned himselfe in the b All true Christians haue so ioyned thēselues Hebr. 12.22 fellowship of Angels if hée shall forsake the same and intangle himselfe in the c Marriage is not a snare but a meane to saue vs from the snares of Satan snares of mariage he shall defile himselfe with the d It cannot be adultery and worse than adulterie too sinne of adulterie and although thou doest oftentimes call it by the name of mariage yet I doe pronounce that it is so much e That is to say Epist 6. worse than adulterie by how much an Angel is greater and better than a mortall man f Id est nulla Tom. 6. ad Theodorum monachum homilia 21. The Answere CHrysostome is next but it is not an Homilie but an Epistle to Theodorus which is here fathered vpon Chrysostome howbeit supposing that Chrysostome is the true author founder of that counterfeit Epistle I answere that hee is so hot in his amplifications that hee forgets himselfe for if the marryage of one that hath vowed chastitie bee the sinne of adulterie how can it bee so farre worse than adulterie as he saith it is and if it be so farre worse than adulterie as an Angell is greater and better than a mortall man then why may not we pronounce likewise that it is not the sin of adulterie but I beseech you consider what fellowship of Angels the promise of chastitie ioyneth vs into doth not the holy Ghost say as much and more a great deale of all the faithfull children of God married and vnmarried Yee are come vnto Mount Sion Hebr. 12.22 and to the Citie of the liuing God the celestiall Ierusalem and to the fellowship of innumerable Angels to the companie of the first borne which are written in heauen and to God the Iudge of all and to the spirites of the iust and perfect men and to Iesus the mediator of the new testament and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel c. We see here that a true Christian is ioyned in fellowship with innumerable Angels and farre more than that comes to yet I would reckon him for a hastie disputer that durst not venter thereof to conclude that euerie man or woman taking a wife or a husband after profession of Christianitie defileth himselfe with the sinne of adulterie and farre worse too Howbeit it may bee Chrysostome had respect to that place where our Sauiour saith Math 22.30 c. Mar. 112.25 that in the resurrection they neither marrie nor are married but are as the Angels of God in heauen if it be so then his votaries wait till the resurrection be past and then lay claime to the fellowship of Angels for
Offices of the liuing are here sayd to procure greater mercie at Gods hands than the sinnes of the dead haue deserued where obserue that the sway of the time so carried both Paulinus and Austine two worthy renowned Bishops that the one would not yeeld though he could not tell how to answere Saint Pauls authoritie 2. Cor. 5.10 Cap. 7. par 3. and the other sheltered himselfe as Denys doth in his Hierarchy vnder a short heeld answere that 's readie to fall backward if you do but look vpon it Paul saith We must receiue euery man according to that he hath done in the bodie either good or euill Here Paulinus is at his wits end and cannot tell how this can agree with prayers sacrifices almes and the Patronage of dead Martyrs and such like humane inuentions and yet he stickes in the mire still and desires Austine to help him out see now how Austine answeareth Meritum per quod ista profint si nullum comparatum est in hac vita frustra quaeritur post hanc vitam If there be no merit by which these things may doe good Libr. de cura pro mortu Cap. 1. gotten in this life it is in vaine to seek it after this life And a little after Vt hoc quod impenditur possit ei prodesse post corpus in ea vita acquisitum est quam gessit in corpore That this which is bestowed may profit him after the bodie it is purchased in this life which hee liued in the bodie But what merite is this hee talkes of doth it respect God or man if man then man must reward it if God why the Apostle assureth vs by Cōmission frō God 2. Cor. 5.10 that we shall receiue good according to that good we haue done in the flesh and therfore all such praiers sacrifices are superfluous again the praiers sacrifices of the liuing depending vpon our former merits must needs procure either lesse or the same or more mercy than wee haue merited in our life time if lesse then they hinder vs if the same then do they not further vs if more then doe we not receiue according to the good that we haue done in the body as Paul saith but according to the praiers sacrifices of our friends Here your Papist hath a Dilemma a Trilemma too to worke vpon if he can do any thing Austine Paulinus shall be beholding to him if nothing thē Paul the Apostle must haue the victory In the mean time the verie same Dilemma and Trilemma too must repell the force of the next place cited out of Austines Enchiridion Cap. 100. for there Austine addeth immediatly Sed eis hac prosunt qui cum viuerēt vt haec sibi postea prodesse possēt meruerunt But these things profit thē who when they liued deserued that they might profit them afterward Wherfore Austine vsing the same shift to rid his hands of Saint Pauls authority Vid. Lumb Eb. 4. distinct 45. D. I must vse the same answere to defend it if two men of equall merite be inequally rewarded because prayers and sacrifices are offered for the one and not for the other then euerie man receiueth not according to that himselfe hath done in the flesh but according to that other men doe for him when he is out of the flesh Howbeit this second place of Austine speakes not of prayers but sacrifices and almes giuen in the Church which belongeth to the fourth point of doctrine to wit sacrifice for the quicke and dead if your Papist thinke that sacrifice and prayers goe together let him take heed hee bee not deceiued for Cyprian speaking of Laurentius and Ignatius Martyrs saith thus Lib. 4. Epist 5. de verb. Apo. serm 17. in Ioh. tract 84. Sacrificia pro eis semper vt meministis offerimus We alwayes as you know offer sacrifices for them Yet Austine saith that Martyrs are not prayed for and that it is iniurious to pray for them but because hee dispatcheth two of his points at once let this place and some other of Cyprian strike some stroke in this question of Sacrifice wee offer Sacrifices for Martyrs saith he Quoties Martyrum passiones dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus As often as wee celebrate the sufferings dayes of the Martyrs with a yeerely remembrance And this sacrificing pro Martyribus Austine himselfe confesseth to be nothing else but praise thankesgiuing and so hee celebrated the day of Cyprians Martyrdome yea but though Martyrs bee not prayed for Serm. de Cyp. Mart. in oper Cypr. when they are remembred at the Altar yet all other which are there mentioned are prayed for saith Austine in the third place and in the last place sacrifices saith he for those that be Valdè boni verie good be thankesgiuing but for those that be not Valde mali Verie euill they bee propitiatorie I see what Saint Austine saith yet all other beside Martyrs stood not in need of releefe as namely the Patriarckes the Prophets the Apostles the Euangelists the Confessors the Bishops the Anachorits and our most holy vnspotted most blessed Ladie Gods Mother the Virgine Marie All these I trowe were not Martyrs yet were they all prayed for in the lyturgies of Basile Chrysostome and Epiphanius not to releeue them but to glorifie God in his seruants and to profite the Church by commemoration of their vertues it cannot be denied but God blessed his Church continually with many such as were Valde boni beside Martyrs and therfore either prayers and Sacrifices go not alwayes one way or els some of these places of Austine must needs fall Howbeit to returne to Saint Cyprian we read that it was decreed by his predecessors that if any brother at his death should leaue the execution of his will to any of the Clergie he should not be offered nor sacrificed for now followeth the approbation and practise of this decree in in these words Cum victor frater noster de saeculo excedens contra formam nuper in concilio à sacerdotibus datam Libr. 1. epist 9. Gemintum Faustinum praesbyterum ausus sit actorem constituere non est quo pro dormitione eius apud vos fiat oblatio aut de precatio aliqua nomine eius in ecclesia frequentetur vt sacerdotum decretum religiosè necessariè factum seruetur c. Seeing victor our brother departing out of this world durst contrary to the order taken of late by the Priests in the Councell appoint Geminius Faustinus a Priest his executor there is no reason why you should make any offering for his decease or that the Church should meete to deprecation for his sake that the religious and necessarie ordinance of the Priests may be obserued Thus farre Cyprian out of which I gather that if these offerings and sacrifices and deprecations had bin made for refrigeration of soules departed then Cyprian and his Collegues and predecessors that made and executed
this law had bene most vnmercifull and most cruell and sauage tyrants that wrote their decrees with the blood of soules and so we read in one of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo clamant quotidiè defuncti qui iacent in tormentis Serm. 44. clamant pauci sunt qui respondeant vlulant non est qui consoletureos ô quà m grandis crudelitas fratres mei ô quà m grandis inhumanitas clamant ad nos quotidiè nec eis subuenire curamus ô verè magna inhumanitas The dead that lie in torments cry dayly they cry and few there are that answere they howle and there is none to comfort them oh how great cruelty is this my brethren oh how great inhumanitie they cry to vs dayly and we haue no care to helpe them or verily great inhumanitie Farre was this inhumanitie from Cyprian and the other good bishops of Africke and therefore farre were they from beleeuing that praying and sacrificing did either helpe or hurt their dead brethren Moreouer Lib. 4. epist 5. we must vnderstand that the commemoration of the dead was celebrated but once a yeere so saith Cyprian of the Martyrs and so saith Tertullian of them that were no Martyrs neither is it like that the memory of any Christian had moe dayes bequeathed vnto it Lib. decor milit then the memory of a Martyr now I beseech you consider what humanitie or charitie this was to releeue our brethren that were broiled and scorched in extreame torments but once a yeere and to leaue them to their clamant quotidiè all the yeere after may not a purgatory-monger cry out here to ô quà m grandis crudelitas ô verè magna inhumanitas Verely I must thinke so till I be better informed and this is yet further strengthened in that these anniuersary dayes were celebrated festiually cum ingenti letitia with great ioy for had they beleeued that the soules of the brethren rested not blessedly from their labours as the spirit saith Apoc. 14.13 but were tormented miserably in purgatory as your Papist saith verely these dayes had bene dayes of fasting and mourning not dayes of feasting and reioycing I could obserue further that oblatio or deprecatio or facrificium pro dormitione importeth not releeuing of soules but a thankefull remembrance to God for the quiet and Christian departure of our brother with a commemoration thereof to the profit and comfort of the liuing but this that hath bene sayd is sufficient to shew the innocencie of Cyprians riches from these popish abuses Now let vs consider a little before of Austines fourth place for the third is sensibly false confuted as you heard in the old Liturgies by Austine himselfe in the first place where he saith that wee should pray for all communicated soules and in the last two where he saith that sacrifice is offered Pro baptizatis defunctis omnibus Cap. cum Marthae For all deceased after baptisme for all that are dead after baptisme Now then touching the distinction of soules which this last place doth afford vs it is found long agoe to want a legge and so to bee lame and imperfect for Pope Innocent the third will needes haue it goe vpon foure legges namely a very good one a very bad one an indifferent good one and an indifferent bad one and Austine himselfe graunts as much in his bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. ca. 24. cap. 110. Lib. 4. dist 40. and in his Enchiridion as the master of Sentences hath cited him so by this reckoning we must find out another purgatorie for indifferent good soules for seeing suffrages auaile them ad expiationem to expiation as Innocentius saith or as Lumbard mends the matter ad plenam absolutionem to full absolution they must haue a new purgatorie needs for the old will receiue none but such as haue filth to purge and are stayed by some inquinament or other from entring into heauen and Austine tels vs that all good soules departed haue ioy and all euill soules torments In Ioh. tract 49. I doubt your papist will be fowly troubled before he shew vs what ioy soules haue in purgatory and here obserue further that the soules which papists send to purgatorie though they be not valdè malae yet they bee malae in Austines opinion whereof it followeth that at the generall resurrection their torments wil be more grieuous Habent omnes animae cum de saeculo exierint diuersas receptiones suas habent gaudium boni mali tormenta sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio bonorum gaudium amplius erit malorū tormenta grauiora quādo cum corpore torquebuntur All soules after they goe out of the world haue diuers rewards the good haue ioy the bad torments but whē the resurection shal come the ioy of the good shall be greater and the torments of the bad more grieuous when they shall be tormēted in their bodies This wil hardly agree with the popish purgatorie which is said to be the high way to heauen not to hell againe it being graunted that non valdè malae be malae not very euill be euill Notwithstanding it will follow likewise that they must continue euill still and so neuer become good that so they may flit from purgatory to heauen for there the tree must lie saith the wise man where it falleth Eccles 11.3 Serm. 49. ex paruis which place Ierome expoundeth of the immutabilitie of the soule after this life either in good or euill and so doth Barnard in one of his Sermons but admit the soule may be changed and be made a good soule of an euil soule now consider what it is that workes this change whether our suffrages or the fire of purgatory suffrages worke no more than we haue merited in our life time as we haue seene before hauing merits in our life time we haue our quietus est in our life time and so purgatory and suffrages are both discharged as for the fire of purgatorie Bellar. depurg lib. 2. cap. 6. it is the same with the fire of hell Theologi ferè omnes docent eodem igne torqueri damnatos animas purgatorij Now if this fire haue power in purgatory so to burne away sinne that it purifieth an euill soule and changeth it from euill to good it would bee knowen why the same fire in hell doth not change soules from valde malae to non valde malae by the like consumption of sinne and so bring them on from hell to purgatory and from thence to heauen if it be said that purgatory fire takes away sinne not by way of purification but by way of satisfaction though this blasphemie be sufficiently confuted by the Prophet Esay Cap. 53.5 who assureth vs that the chasticement of our peace fell vpon Christ and that we are heated by his stripes yet forasmuch ar mortall sinne in his owne nature is not infinitely more punishable than veniall it wil
off the forepart of Ambroses testimony which speakes of substance and merite and euill doctrine and alledgeth onely these last words Cum Paulus dicit sic tamen quasi per ignem ostendit quidem illum saluum futurum sed poenas ignis passurum vt per ignem purgatus fiat saluus non sicut perfidi aeterno igne in perpetuum torqueatur When Paul saith yet so as it were by fire he sheweth indeed that he shal be saued but shall suffer the paynes of fire that being purged by fire he may be saued and not tormented perpetually in euerlasting fire as the obstinate c. Wherefore I like your popish fellowes simplicitie a great deale better who cites Ambrose by whole sale substance accident merite euill doctrine and all for though in so doing he haue lesse wit then Bellarmine yet I will beare him witnesse he hath more honesty but to wind vp all in a word if you be desirous to know Ambroses meaning I thinke you may easily picke it out of these words of S. Austine De ciuit Dei lib. 21. cap. 13. Nos etiam in hac quidē mortali vita esse quasdam paenas purgatorias confitemur Wee also confesse that there are in this mortall life certaine purgatory paynes The Dialogue Sectio XIII GRegorius Magnus The a The trueth giueth you no such thing to vnderstand looke the answere truth hath sayd if any man shall blaspheme the holy Ghost he shall not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in this world and some in the world to come for proofe whereof he vseth also the place b Hee saith it may be vnderstood de igne tribulationis in hac vita of Saint Paul before cited by Saint Austine and Saint Ambrose to the same effect Dialog lib. 4. cap. 39. The Answere POpe Gregorie is heere brought in with his great title to fray vs and yet God wote hee pleads but simply for Purgatorie for touching the place of Saint Paul thus hee writes Quamuis hoc de igne tribulationis in hac vita nobis adhibitae possit intelligi tamen si quis hoc de igne futurae purgationis accipiat c. Although this may be vnderstood of the fire of tribulation which wee feele in this life yet if any take it of the purgation of fire to come c. As if hee should say though I be of opinion that Paul speakes of the fire of affliction whereby God examineth his children in this life yet if any take it otherwise I will not stand against it this is but a silly proofe and touching the other place of Saint Matthew out of which hee concludeth that some sins are forgiuen in this world and some in the world to come Cap. 12.32 his conclusion is cleane contrarie to all Logicke for no reason will lead vs to reason thus this one sinne is not forgiuen Ergo some sins are forgiuē in the world to come this is a plain Non sequitur and so saith Bellarmine De purg lib. 1 cap. 4. Non sequitur secundum regulas dialecticorum It followeth not according to the rules of Logicke but will you know now how it followeth then hearken what the Iesuite saith further Sequitur secundum regulam prudentiae It followeth according to the rule of wisedome So you see howe it followeth and how it followeth not it followeth by the rule of wit it followeth not by the rules of Logicke belike Wit is a Papist and Logicke a Protestant but consider I beseech you how farre this Popish wit would goe if it might hee suffered Dominus ineptissimè loquitur saith Bellarmine si in futuro saeculo nullum peccatum remittitur The Lord speaketh most foolishly if no sinne be forgiuen in the world to come See how this sawcie Iesuite thinks it not inough to say Dominus non loquitur secundum regulam prudentiae c. The Lord speakes not according to the rule of wit which hath some little shew of modestie but Dominus ineptissimè loquitur c. The Lord speakes most foolishly if his Iesuiticall conceit of remitting sinnes in another world be not admitted this is the desperatenesse of Popish Diuinitie but tell mee I beseech you is not the speech still alike foolish if no great sinnes be remitted in the world to come yes verily for thus must it be conceiued the great sinne against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen neither there where great sinnes are forgiuen that is in this world nor there where no great sinnes are forgiuen that is in the world to come Is not this speech thinke you as farre from Bellarmines regula prudentiae rule of wit as the other yet is it propounded according to the Popish conceit for as wee thinke no sinne so they think no great sin is remitted in seculo futuro in the world to come Gregory in this very Dialogue saith Dial. lib. 4. ca. 39. Serm. 41. that peccata maiora greater sinnes be tunciam insolubilia be impardonable and counterfeit Austine saith as much in his sermons De Sanctis Now then whereas the Pope thinkes that our Sauiour in Mathew giueth vs to vnderstand that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in the world to come let him tell vs what sinnes those be great or small great sinnes be tunc iam irremissibile as he saith himselfe and if he meane small sinnes then is our Sauiours speech as farre out of square as if a man should say This great heape of corne cannot bee contained neither in this bushell nor in a fleeting dish But why should the speech of Christ bee most foolish if no sinne at all be remitted in the world to come might not our Sauiour speake so by exaggeration that the speech might the better pierce the vncircumcised hearts and eares of the Pharises No saith the Iesuite Exaggeratio non debet esse inepta qualis est cum fit partitio vni membro nihil respondet An exaggeration ought not to bee foolish as for example when a partition is made and nothing agreeth to one of the parts Is this the folly hee talkes of why it is easie to see that not to remit the sin against the holy Ghost is answerable alike both to this world and the world to come which bee the members of our Sauiours partition for that great sin is neuer remitted neither in the one nor the other 1. Cor. 13.1 Galat. 1.8 Apoc. 5.3 yet notwithstanding we haue examples of such foolish partitions in the word of God Paul saith Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels whereas Angels haue no tongues to speake And in another place though we or an Angell from heauen speake otherwise c. Yet Angels be no Preachers so likewise the spirite of God saith No man is able to open read or looke vpon the Booke neither in heauen nor in earth nor vnder the earth yet
being as the Angels of God is not there spoken of onely in regard of not marrying but also in regard of not dying Cap. 20.36 as Saint Luke expoundeth it looke the Bible ouer and ouer and you shall neuer read that Angels refused man or womans fellowship because they were married or accepted of it because they were vnmarried and single and therefore these vehement speeches of the ancient Fathers especially Chrysostome may not be racked to the vttermost but charitably and friendly construed to the best Chrysostome here in his vehemencie goeth beyond measure in reprehending the Christians of his time in their lightnesse went beyond measure in vowing yet the East-Church then neuer exacted any such promise or vow but left euerie Christian man and woman to their owne libertie Socrat. histor lib. 5. cap. 21. Illustres presbyteri in Oriente Episcopi etiam modo ipsi volluerint nulla lege coacti ab vxoribus abstinent nam non pauci ipsorum dum Episcopatum gerunt etiam liberos ex vxore legitima procreant Famous Ministers in the east yea and Bishops also are not compelled by any law to abstaine from wiues for many of them euen when they are Bishops doe beget children of a lawfull wife Well but what 's that charitable construction you speake of I pray you let vs heare it and so an end Content Chrysostome saith that such marriage is worse than adulterie and Austine saith as much yet Austine expoundeth himselfe presently in the same place De bono viduit cap. 9. saying Non quod ipsae nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur daemnatur propositi fraus damnatur fracta voti fides c. Not that the verie marriages euen of such men as ought to be iudged damnable their deceitfull purpose is damnable the breach of their vow is damnable And againe Damnantur tales non quia coniugalem fidem posterius inierunt sed quia continentiae primam fidem irritam faecerunt Such are condemned not because they did afterward enter into the state of mariage but because they brake their former vowe of continencie You see heere howe Austine expoundeth himselfe and therefore if wee charitably expound Chrysostome after the same manner we haue as good warrant as Austine can giue vs neuerthelesse to speake yet more precisely wee may not take the breach of faith to be so great a sinne as the giuing of it vnaduisedly beyond our strength if a man should vow to fast bread and water all the dayes of his life and afterward feeling his strength to faile should fall to better fare for the recouerie of the same there is no reasonable man that will find fault with him for breaking that yoake of bondage at the last but for thrusting his necke vnto it at the first Si quis castitatem promiserit seruare non poterit In Leuit. lib. 3 pronunciet peccatum suum saith Cirill in one place If any man haue promised continencie and cannot keepe it let him confesse his sinne But he saith againe in another place In Leuit. lib. 16. Oportet commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate huiusmodi qui non possunt capere sermonem de castitate concedere nuptias We must measure the doctrine according to mens strength and graunt marriage to such as cannot receiue that doctrine of continencie The Dialogue Sectio XXII EPiphanius Quae enim ad sacerdotium tradita sunt propter eminentiam celebrationis sactorum ea ad omnes aequaliter ferri putauerunt c. Those traditions which were deliuered peculiarly for the Clergie by reason of their a None more supereminent than the Apostles who were married men so was Peter himselfe supreminencie in the celebration of the diuine mysterie these heretickes would haue all men tyed vnto when they did heare that a Bishop ought to be vnreprooueable the husband of one wife and continent and likewise of Deacons and Priests for in truth since the comming of Christ the Doctrine b VVhere is it forbidden in all the new testament of the Gospell doth not admit into these offices any that haue married a second wife by reason of the excellent dignitie of priesthood and this holy c But either Churches obserued it not as appeareth in Tertullian De Monog church doth sincerely obserue yet doth not the church admit any into those Offices that is the husband but of one wife whose wife is yet liuing with him in the fellowship of marriage but him onely d Here Epiphanius is fasly translated that Epiphanius might not seeme vnreasonable that either was neuer married or that after the death of his first wife liueth vnmarried the church receiueth into the office of a Deacon Priest Bishop or Subdeacon which is especially obserued where the Ecclesiasticall Canons e There is smal sinceritie in such Canons are sincerely kept but thou wilt say vnto me that in many places Priests and Deacons doe liue in wedlocke but this is not according to the sinceritie of the Canons c. Thus haue I f You must search better or you will neuer finde it searched and as I hope made sensible the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen to your owne cause by fashioning vnto your selues such an imaginarie and mathematicall Church as all the g They acknowledged no other ancient Fathers and Doctors of the Church did neuer know nor acknowledge whereupon it will follow if that out of the Church as out of the Arke there bée no saluation that all these reuerend Fathers and Doctors were heretickes and are damned Spirits or else that you be heretickes your selues The Answere EPiphanius comes in now to tell his tale and our Papist bearing good will to traditions englisheth quae tradita sunt which were deliuered those traditions which were deliuered and yet when all comes to all those traditions are found in Paul to Timothie and Titus and they are as cleere against the necessitie of single life in a Bishop as can be desired Paul saith a Bishop must be the husband of no more but one wife at once Cap. 3.2 Tit. 1.5.6 for that 's his meaning in the first to Timothie Now in the Epistle to Titus he willeth Titus to ordaine Elders in euerie Citie such as hee found irreprooueable the husbands of one wife c. euidently teaching vs that marriage was then no barre against being a Bishop or a Minister of the Gospell and so saith Chrysostome Ita pretiosa res est vt cum ipsa etiam possit quis ad sanctum Episcopatus solium subuehi In Tit. Serm. 2 It is so precious a thing that a man with it may be aduanced to the seat of a Bishop Againe hee translates qui abvna continuit which hath contained from one him onely that was neuer married adding the word onely to the text and peruerting the meaning of Epiphanius who thought it commendable for a man to renounce his wife ob
wiped away This might serue for answere of this friuolous obiection concerning the instrabilitie of Saint Austines doctrine but because it is a string much harped on let vs assay by harping whether it be a true cord or not now do you k Be like you will not know wheere vnlesse it be shewed you k This place of Austine is cleere against limbus puerorum shew me where Saint Austine doth denie purgatorie as I haue shewed you where he hath affirmed it Pro. Austine in his 14. Chapter De verbis Apostoli saith thus The Lord who shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead as the Gospel saith shall diuide them all into two parts whereof one shall bee placed on his right hand and the other on his left to those on his right hand he shall say Come ye blessed c. The one he calleth his kingdome the other damnation with the deuill there is no third place left for infants and a little after he concludeth thus if there shall be a right hand and a left since we haue none other place by the Gospel behold the kingdome of heauen is on the right hand Pa. Héere is a faire l There be fairer showes in Austine then this shew but all is not gold that glistereth S. Austine in that place hauing to deale with the Pelagians who held that children which die before baptisme should by reason of their innocencie attaine vnto eternall saluation but not vnto the kingdome of heauen and that children are to be baptized not for eternall life but for the kingdome of heauen for confutation of that heresie doth there labour to prooue that whosoeuer doth not appertaine to the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine vnto damnation his argument is this At the generall iudgement Christ shall diuide the quicke and the dead into two parts whereof one shal be on his right hand another on his left therefore children which die before baptisme must either be on the right hand to whom the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine or on the left whose portion is m That is damnation into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his Angels Mat. 25.41 I trow this is hell not limbus puerorum damnation for saith he there remaineth no third place for infants What maketh this place against purgatorie for they that doe allow low of Purgatorie doe hold also that there are but two places to wit heauen and hell and that whosoeuer shall be placed in purgatorie for a time doth notwithstanding appertaine to one of those two places for a third place they likewise doe not know behold how easie a matter it is to carpe at contrariety in any mans writings be they neuer so plaine and perspicuous n Heere the flood-gate is opened to a great deale of prophane and irreligious talke euen so doe the Iewes taxe the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and great appearance thereof there seemeth to be therein S. Iohn saith He that is borne of God sinneth not And againe in the same Epistle he saith If we say we haue no sinne we deceiue our selues and the trueth is not in vs The Bee sucketh honie and the Spider poyson take away the authoritie of the Church Councels and Fathers and leaue euery man to his owne o As though fancy had no place in Councels and fathers but only in Scriptures fancie in the interpretation of Scriptures and open the fountain of all heresie and Atheisme After your single incounter with Saint Austine you seeke to ouerthrow the credite of all the Doctors at once by taxing them with many grosse errors I graunt the doctors had their errours and imperfections so had S. Peter for S. Paul withstood him to his face and p VVe doe not say they are are your new writers of the purest stampe free trow ye much lesse are Cronographers writers of ciuil histories what then shall we q No but resolute diuines become Scepticke Philosophers what shall we not beléeue that which they do write out of their own knowledge and wherof themselues were eye witnesses and consequently shall we beleeue nothing but what we doe r Yes what we taste smell and feele too Lord what vaine chat is this heare and see If you will affoord an Historiographer any credite in these cases affoord the Catholicke doctor the like in the same case beléeue that which he writeth as an eye witnesse if not beleeue an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers of them in a matter of fact confirmed by the testimonie of their owne eyes if not yet beléeue them at the least wherein they doe produce themselues for eye witnesses and ſ All this is but impudent facing a thousand other like witnesses with them of this last sort are most of the testimonies of the doctors which I haue produced against you they write that prayers were made for the dead that sacrifice was offered for the quicke and the dead that it was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and heard and saw it done and thousands moe with them and were themselues principall agents in the doing of it Now let vs see what those errors bée wherewith you seeke to bring the auncient doctors out of credite Irenaeus held t Belike Irenaeus neuer heard any newes of Purgatory that the soules of the righteous should rest in a place for them appointed of God vntill the generall resurrection that Satan did not know his owne damnation before the comming of Christ Tertullian that second marriages were not lawfull Hilarie that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his bodie Cyprian held rebaptization and so might I passe through the rest of these and such like errors u As though they were not deliberate assertions but only scapes escaped in the writings of the fathers Erasmus alleaged a threefolde reason First the points wherein they erred were not as then called in question or if they were the Church had not as then determined of them Secondly they were constrained for the confutation of heresies to handle such high mysteries as were beyond their capacitie Thirdly in dealing earnestly against heretickes they were sometime with feruor carried into the contrarie extreame Now will I shew you the difference beeweene these and the like errours escaped in the writings of the fathers and those points of doctrine wherein I haue cited them as witnesses against you the one they deliuer as their owne priuate opinion the other set downe as a doctrine x How knew they that or you that they did so generally receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church the one is as the Prouerbe saith but one doctors opinion the other an vniforme consent of many the one the Church hath reiected the other it hath receiued and practiseth Thus y So may you see you haue sayd nothing may you see the reason why the doctors are to be reiected in the one and receiued in
Dialogue Sectio VII SAint Austine Pompous funerals great troups of mourners sumptuous monuments these doe bring some cōfort such as it is vnto the liuing but they are not auaileable vnto the dead but we ought a VVhat is it that puts the matter out of doubt let that be shewed and we will doubt no longer not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church by the holesome sacrifice and by almes which are giuen that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them than their sinnes haue deserued This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by Tradition a Austine saith a patribus not ab Apostolis from the Apostles that whereas at the time of the sacrifice commemoration is made of b All communicants and onely communicants are prayed for is this catholicke doctrine think you all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them de verb. Apost sermon 32. We ought c Nor wee ought not to say it vnlesse we could proue it not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their liuing friends when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them or almes giuen in the Church Enchir. ad Laurent prope fin When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God they are not prayed for but d VVhat all confessors bishops popes and all all other which are dead which are there remembred are prayed for de verb. Apostol serm 17. When the sacrifice whether it bee of the altar or of almes déedes is offered for such as are dead e VVhy not before as well as after you may as well offer for the vnbaptized as for those that be valdé mali after Baptisme for those that be very good they be thanksgiuing for those which be not very euil they be propitiatory for those which be very euill although they profit not the dead yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing Dulcitij question quest 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis This was no doubt S. Austines f Or else you know not what faith is faith which he wrote taught and practised in his church and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches The Answere AVstine belike is plentifull in this question for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes which we will briefely runne ouer as they come In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition prayer for the dead was no more but a Tradition of the fathers here Austine is intreated to say that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time Decad. 4. serm 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades Illud dissimulare non possum saith he id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus inquit traditū vniuersa obseruat ecclesia c. This I cannot hide that that which they call a traditō of the Apostles Quest 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church see Serm. de verbis Apostoli 32. This saith he being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue And a litle after cōcludeth His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritū orandi pro defunctis haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorū ab ecclesia receptū esse By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate that this custome of praying for the dead was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid pro quo in so materiall a testimonie argueth a peruerse resolution rather to quench the fire of truth than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed But for answere I say that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of truth as I suppose Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideo hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione venialia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forsitan verum est Whether thinges committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seek not to conuince because perhaps it is true and in his Enchiridion Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it bee so done it is a question Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt whether the dead be releeued by our prayers Moreouer it is here likewise to be obserued that no soule were praied or offered for or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. lib. 1 de peccat merit remiss Concil 6. cap. 83. Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times that none but Communicants could be saued and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly as any other tradition that the Eucharist as well as Baptisme was necessary to the saluation of all euen of new borne babes wherof it cōmeth that the bread wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants and dead carkasses both in the Greeke and Latine Churches Forasmuch then as this place of Austine teacheth two points of generall doctrine one that prayers Sacrifices and almes doe profite the dead the other that none can bee saued but Communicants and so prayers and sacrifices and doles to bee made for no other we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other Furthermore these