are pardoned in the world to come 15. Whence we further inferre that those synnes were not fully and perfectly pardoned in this life For the synnes that were wholy pardoned in this life need no remission in the next and if any be remitted in the next such they are as were not at least fully pardoned in this And this is the difference betwixt being a Scholler in Eaton and a fellow in Christs-Colledg and Remission of synne in this world and Pardon thereof in the next because to be a scholler in Eaton doth not repugne with being afterward fellow of Christs-Colledg whereas full Remission of synne in this life doth not agree with Remission in the next For how shall that be truly forgiuen that is wholy forgiuen before So that though one may not inferre he was fellow of Christs-Colledg ergo he was not before Scholler in Eaton yet we may and must inferre this synne is remitted in the next world ergo the same was not formally fully and perfectly forgiuen in this present life Thus your owne examples discouer your ignorance thus you are hampered in your owne snare 16. No lesse vaine is your other logicall assault where you thinke you put vs to a plunge by returning our Paralogisme as you tearme it vpon vs. Thus you dispute (b) Lett. p. 34. The sinne of the Holy Ghost shall neuer be remitted quoad poenam aut quoad culpam in this world nor in the world to come which is say you repugnant to the position of our owne sect recorded by Suarez whose wordes you cite (c) Tom. 4. d. 45. §. â— p. â—57 Thus you returne arguments as children vse to do stones they are not able well to lift which they let fall on there head or foote First it is not against the doctrine of our Church that some sinnes are forgiuen in the world to come quoad Culpam Poenam both according to the guilt of sinne and according to the guilt of paine yea Catholike Deuines commonly teach that veniall sinnes are remitted in the next world according to both guilts namely Suarez in that very place you cited though of mortall sinnes he saith that remissio mortalium the remission of mortall sinne in the next world cannot be vnderstood quoad Culpam according to the sinne but only quoad poenam according to some penaltie due to it Behold how well you vnderstand the Authors you name You had greate reason doubtlesse to saie that you vnderstand the most artificiall conueiance of the best of our workes (d) Counters p. 58. who cannot read without mistaking six lynes of a Scholasticall Author 17. Secondly your Retortion is of no force against that Position did we hold it For out of the former text of Scripture is gathered clerly that some sinnes are remitted in the world to come but what those sinnes be veniall or mortall likewise the maÌ„ner of the pardon whether it be according to the sinne or penaltie only or both cannot hence be proued but out of other passages of Gods word these verities are to be searched To make this cleare by your example Should your Gentleman saie my sonne shall goe to schoole either at Eaton or Oxford one may inferre that in eyther of these places some kind of learning is taught but not that Grammar is taught in Oxford Logik in Eaton or è contra Should a young gentleman saie that he will neyther study in the Innes of Court nor in the Vniuersities one may inferre except the speach be senselesse that in both places studies are professed but he that would inferre that common lawe is studied in Oxford or diuinity professed in London were he not absurd Soe likewise the speach of Christ doth only signifie in generall Remission in the world to come not distinctly explicate the manner thereof nor the qualitie of the sinnes that are there purged 17. Fayne would you find some Paralell in Scripture to this speach of our Sauiour that may seeme no lesse senselesse and idle then is this sensed in your manner For want of better you bring that speach of S. Matthew (e) c. 1. concerning Ioseph that he knew her not vntill she had brought forth her first-borne Sonne If out of this place say you (f) Lett. pag. 39. we should come vpon you ergo he knew her after she had borne him you would thinke that Blessed holy Virgin most irrecoÌ„peÌ„sably disparaged and yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seemeth to imply the same Thus you discourse thinking this hereticall and Heluidian inference not vnlike to that of the Fathers we stand vpon Yea say you Non ouum ouo similius one egg is not more like another But if euer I be so happy as to be at your table to which you seeme to inuite me I should be loath you be my caruer you are so apt to mistake and coÌ„found things which doe mainly differ as I might easily haue a Scorpion layd on my trencher insteed of an Egge The speach you bring out of S. Matthew He knew her not vntill she had brought forth her first-borne Sonne doth only expresse a truth that Ioseph did not know the Virgin till that time neither is any thing waÌ„ting or superfluous in this speach but in the other speach this sinne shal be foÌ„rgiuen neither in this world nor in the world to come the last clause therof is superfluous senslesse signifying no more then the former if there be no remission in the world to come as hath bene proued 19. Moreouer the denyall of some action vntill a certaine time doth not imply any necessary consequence therof afterward which may be proued by familiar examples in our commoÌ„ speach As if one say he neuer yielded vnto sinne til death it is coÌ„sequeÌ„t that after death he yielded vnto sinne The same may be shewed in a thousand places of Scripture God the Father saith to Christ Sit on my right hand vntill I make thine enemies a foote-stoole to thy feet (g) Psal 109. when this is done shall Christ loose his seat at his Fathers right hand Noe. So his Mother that was vntouched vntill she brought him forth ceased not to be a Virgin after her Childbirth Now noe exaÌ„ple can be brought out of the Scripture of a speach distinctiue that is that hath two partes or members where one of those particles is idle the second part implying noe more then the first Neither doth coÌ„mon sense or discretion practice or allowe such senseles pratling which may yet be further confirmed by diuers examples but one other shall suffice by which any iudicious Reader will easily perceiue a maine difference betwixt the Heluidian inference and Catholike deductioÌ„ from Scripture What thinke you Syr Edward of this speach The Virgin neuer committed mortall sinne from the first moment of her life vntill the very last thereof doth this speach sound vncouthly in a Christian eare Shall one infer Ergo after life she committed mortall sinne were not such an
this world is forgiuē in the world to come that they may not be afflicted with eternall torments Thus he Now is S. Augustine doubtfull either of Purgatorie or of the exposition of this place for pardon in the next world Hath this Doctour in his vnfoulding the words of Christ turned vp Nody Or rather your Minister that dealt your Cardes vsing foure false and deceiptfull trickes concerning this testimony of Viues may he not be thought to haue turned vp for you all the Nodies and Knaues in the bunch 8. But this your gaming Metaphore is not so iniurious to these Blessed Saintes as it is blasphemous against the holy Ghost whose thrice venerable writings did you reuerence in your hart more then the follies of your owne braine your pen would haue trembled to haue called that exposition Nody which so many graue Fathers without the contradiction of any do peremptorily affirme to containe his meaning What can be sacred and certaine amongst Christians if an vnlearned Knight may be permitted to deride that which the most famous Deuines and Fathers of former ages do deliuer as an vndoubted verity and Gods infallible word It is true that Fathers to proue this or that Catholike verity may sometimes bring places of Scripture that haue other sense yea perhaps the sense that one or other doth giue may not be the best although the doctrine therby proued be true which is to erre according to the Analogy of the Place not of Faith A distinction you vnderstand not yet when many Fathers of the Church agree in the same exposition of Scripture without the Contradiction of any the same is to be thought the vndeniable sense of that place For which cause Caluin cannot be excused of hereticall rashnes (h) Caluin comment in c. 10. Io. who dareth expound this Text of Scripture Ego et Pater vnum sumus I and the Father are one of vnity of Consent and Will not of nature and substance adding that the Ancients did abuse the same to proue the Consubstantiality of the Sonne of God Happily the text cannot be so strongly vrged but Caluin◠Arrianizing wit may find some plausible euasion to escape the force therof Yet seing the vniforme consents of Fathers haue canonized that meaning of the wordes he can not be a true Christian that will not neyther was Caluin that did not submit his Iudgment therunto For the vniforme consent of Fathers doth not require that euery one none excepted should expresly teach the same doctrine for then scarse in any point could this vniforme consent be proued seeing all write not of the same point but it sufficeth that many haue taught it in diuers ages without contradiction of the rest and such is the exposition of this place for Purgatory and for the dead in the next world Neither is S. Chrysostomes exposition you brought (k) Lett. p. 41. contrary vnto this that the synne against the holy Ghost shall not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come that is Non effugient poenam they shall surely be punished in this wold and in the world to come For first it is not sure and certayne that vniuersally all such synners are punished in this world Many tymes they florish prosper and spend their whole liues in great worldly ioylity as diuers Persecutors Sodomites Apostata's haue done which you name as synnes irremissible and call their Authors Synners in grayne Besides synne neuer to be remitted is more then to be punished in this world and in the next For as you heard S. Augustine say some endure temporall punishments in this life only and some in the next life only some in both so that one may be punished both in this and in the world to come and yet haue his sinne forgiuen at last The meaning then of S. Chrysostome is they shal be punished in this world without pardon and in the next likewise without remissiion Whence it doth follow some may be punished in the next with Purgatory Clemency as Boaethius speaketh (l) Lib. 4 praef 4. So that this exposition as I said though it be not taught expresly by euery Father yet is it not contradicted by any These things Syr you should consider before you speake you should wipe away Tobacco smoke from your eyes when a Card is turned vp before you cry Nody least often as now you haue done you lay the foule Epithete on the holy Ghost indeed that true King of Harts who moued those Fathers to expound the wordes of Christ for the remission of sinnes in the world to come 9. You oppose against our Catholike expositiō another deuised by your self or your Ministers wherin you do greatly delight You will grant sinnes pardoned in the next world and yet not yield one penny to our Purgatory box In this world say you (m) Lett. pag. 50. 51. sinnes are fully pardoned quoad remissionis applicationem by the application of pardon vnto them and the selfe same sinnes may and shal be pardoned in the next per remissionis promulgationem by the proclamation of pardon This distinction you thinke is the (n) p. 32. fiue fingers which you imagin will carry away the Set from the Fathers yet I dare say a man that hath bin conuersant in Scriptures will iudge it no better then Nody First because it is a new deuise not backed by the authority of any Father which therfore may iustly be suspected For Scriptures are to be expounded according to the traditions of our ancestors not by our owne fancies as the Goulden paire of Grecian Doctors Basil and Gregory did who durst neuer follow therin their owne iudgments as Ruffinus o recordeth neither would you Scripturarū intelligentiam non ex propria praesumptione sed ex maiorū scriptis authoritate sequebantur whose wit and learning is not to be paralelled with theirs were you as humbly conceited of your self as you haue cause Secondly because you neither do nor can bring any expresse testimony of Scripture to confirme this your new fancy nor any text that may giue the least colour or probability vnto it You cite the words of S. Iohn that the vnbelieuer is already condemned yet say you he must come to a second doome so is it with the belieuer Albeit he hath full remission granted (p) c. 3. v 18 and his pardon sealed in this life yet he must haue the same proclaimed at the generall Goal-deliuery in the world to come in which sense he may as truly be said to haue his sinnes pardoned as the other his condemned 10. Thus you preach very learnedly as you think though God knowes to little purpose For first you neither do nor can tel what is the first doome the vnbelieuer vndergoeth by which he is damned in this world and after which he must come to a second The ancient Fathers expound that place not that he is indeed sentenced in this world but is said to be condemned and iudged
inference ridiculous and absurd you see then that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vntill doth not imply consequence of the action afterward Now should one say of the blessed Mother she neuer committed sinne either in this life or after her death would not this speach seem to a Iudicious hearer absurd Might not one thinke the last clause therof senseles except sinne may be committed in the next world I appeale to the Iudgment of any Christian eare whether there be not a maine difference betwixt those two kind of speaches which you would haue like Soe that still on your head doth light the scornefull Epithete wherewith you reiect the Fathers iudicious inference out of our Sauiours sentence 20. Yet you haue one shift more which is a rule of logick whereof you write in this sort (h) Lett. p. 33. 34. I am sure it was a rule when I first haunted Paruies Quod de vno negatur non semper de diuersis affirmatur è contra My reason say you is Potest idem praedicatum de diuersis subiectis praedicari as thus Eos qui foris sunt Deus iudicabit and this is true eos qui foris sunt iudicabit Deus when subiectum doth differ the praedicatum being all one Neyther may we argue thus They are to be iudged of God Ergo not by the Magistrate and yet you stick not to say This sinne is not remitted in this world nor in the next world ergo some sinnes shal be forgiuen in the next Thus you talke like a great Doctor when you haue an ignorant Reader though any man that hath the least skil in Logick doth se you haue turned vp a notorious Nody For is he not a Nody-Logician and a young gamster in that art that cannot distinguish betwixt Praedicatum and Subiectum but taketh the one for the other I am sure one that had studied logick but three dayes would not haue committed such a grosse errour as you doe who bragg (i) Lett. p. 6 of being a Maister of Art and Seniour of the Act Absit say you inuidia verbo Truly some foole may perchāce enuy the word or Title of Seniour or Maister of Arts but the logick to which that title was giuen I cannot thinke an obiect of enuie you so childishly erre in the first principles thereof 12. For the Praedicatum in your two propositiōs is not the same the subiect being different as you say but the contrarie to wit two different Praedicates are spoken of the same Subiect Praedicatum is the thing which is spoken Subiectum that whereof that thing is spoken Who doth not se that in these propositions the thing spoken is Iudge of those without Iudge of those within which are diuers titles praedicates or properties the thing of which that is spoken is God one and the selfe same Subiect on whome both these titles light And seing Subiectum in a speach is that which goeth before the verbe Praedicatum that which followeth the Boyes of Eaton may serue to laugh you out of your witlesse bragging that you can breake tall mens heades with your Logick I shall not need for this exployte to muster an Army of English both horse and foote as you do (k) p. 37. Angligenae attollant equites peditesque cachinnum to laugh against me pardoning them afore hand though they laugh without Modesty because I did warne you by the way not to read Lipsius of the miracles of our Blessed Lady other Catholike bookes as you did insinuate your custome was taking Tabacco and rosting crabbes by the fire side which admonition whether it were ridiculous or no and not rather necessary I remit it to the Iudgement of them that best knew your humours This I say had you obserued perchance you would not haue impugned our Catholike exposition in the manner you haue done to your shame your pride falling into more then childish Ignorance when you are prankest in the dirision of the holy Fathers Perchance in Oxford you spent not so much tyme in haunting Paruies as in hunting in Parkes or houering at Larkes which Idlenesse were not so intolerable a fault in one borne to such land as you were did not your Arrogancie exceed your ignorance imploying your small learning against their religion whose liuing you enioy except your family be as very an vpstart as your Faith 22. Your logicall rule though the examples wherwith you declare it to be childish we deny not to be true that what is denied of one thing is not therfore said of another So by rigour of Logick it doth not follow that Remission of sinne in the next world is granted of some sinnes when it is denied vnto one kind of sinnes yet doth the same follow by the Rules of Prudency because otherwise such a speach though not false yet should be idle and sensles against rules of wisdome And seing it is most certaine that no sensles or idle word could proceed from the mouth of our Sauiour we conclude necessarily that the second clause of the former speach hath some sense which cannot be as hath bene shewed without remission of sinnes in the next world Many speaches are not against Logicke though a graue Authour will not vse them Your example to illustrate the matter that (f) Let. p. 38. a Maister shall not read you a Lecture nor quick nor dead though it be not against the Logick you got in Paruies yet would it not beseeme the mouth of wisdome to me it seemes a spice of blasphemy for you to bring your phrases which you (g) Counters p. 39. confesse are neither in mood nor figure to declare the speach of Christ whose words are in number weight and measure 23. Strang conclusions might we deduce from your speach did we not thinke that their authour might be subiect to folly iesting at the Miracles of the Virgin of Iohn Swickius who had his Nose strooke of with a bullet for playing with the Virgins nose you say (h) Let. p. 101. that he lost the best nose of his face Had a graue writer vsed that speach I might haue suspected that Swickius had more noses then one but knowing you to be the authour thereof I can thinke you might be as ignorant in the number of his noses as you are of the biggnesse of your owne who tell vs as a great wonder that when you take Tobacco (i) Counters p. 39. your nose doth not smoke so much as your chimey Should one haue sayd of Swickius after that stroke that he had on his face neither nose of flesh nor waxe I see not what sinne he should haue committed against Logicke yet I thinke except some men vse to haue noses of waxe he should haue missed the marke of graue and discret speach This the wisdome of God could not misse wherefore that must needs be the meaning of his words which taken away leaueth them in an empty sound voyd of graue and full sense 24. Rather then
take to your self the Nody you layd on our expositions you seeme in a manner to graunt all to witt that the speach of Christ was indeed senselesse wherein you would fayne haue Maldonate ioyne with you (k) Let. p. 38. you cite him vpon a sentence of Christ saying in this sort Haec oratio hominibus absurda videtur qui non intelligunt Maldonatus sup Matth. 19.14 this speach seemeth absurd to those that vnderstand it not why then say you should this prouerbiall amplification sound soe vncouthly in your eares you would be loath I should serue you with a Non intelligis vnder Maldonates seale But Sir I must by your leaue serue you with Non inuenis vnder the seale of truth Do you consider whether you may not serue your Minister out of whose Note-bookes you copy these falshoods with a Mentiris Maldonats true words vpon the sentence of Christ (l) Matth. 29.24 that it is easer for a camell to passe through a needells eye then a rich man to enter in to the kingdome of heauen are these Absurditas saith he vt videbatur aut potiùs admirabilitas huius sententiae in causa fuit vt quidam Cameli nomine nauticum funem quo Anchorae alligantur intelligerent The absurdity as it seemeth or rather the admirabilytie of this doctrine caused some interprete Camelum a Cable rope by which shippes ryde at Anker Which wordes of Maldonatus make not for you but rather against you We deny not but the doctrine of Christ and his speach may seeme absurd to carnall men by occasion of the height and admirability of his doctrine which the capacity of humayne vnderstanding reacheth not vnto as Maldonatus saith but that the speach and wordes of diuine wisdome should indeed be absurd for want of sense or mystery conteyned in them that he should expresse a truth in a disiuÌ„ctiue speach one clause whereof is senseles which no wise and graue man vseth to doe this absurditie I say and superfluitie of speach we take it a great blasphemy in you to suspect in the doctrine of Christ 25. Hence is answered the Question you make (m) p. 27. It was an old prouerb say you when I went to schoole Veritas non quaerit angulos How commeth it to passe that S. (n) c. 3 29. Markes exposition to wit that the synne against the holy ghost shall neuer be remitted is such a mote in your eyes that you are gauled to the quick that he should decide the question To this I reply with another question how commeth it to passe that the text of S. Matthew being larger in wordes then that of S. Marke is such a beame in your eye that you would haue the same broken in peeces till it be no greater then S. Markes mote The reason is I feare because the partition of Eternity into this world and of the world to come to be two places for remission of synnes is a payre of spectacles through which you must needs see Purgatory except you willfully shut your eyes Is not this quaerere angulos to seeke corners to leaue the open field of S. Matthewes larger sentence seeking a Commentary in S. Marke more retyred and concise speach Seeing S. Matthew is more diffuse in wordes we do him wrong denying them a more copious sense when they may beare it S. Matthew deuideth what S. Marke confoundeth in one the two partes of eternity which in S. Matthew are manifest in S. Mark are hidden how then can S. Marke be thought an expositor of S. Matthew who fouldeth vp what the other layeth open 26. I hope Syr you perceaue this Catholike exposition of Christs wordes or deduction of Purgatorie from them is in it self most sutable with the wisdome of so graue an Author specially backed with the authoritie of so many worthy Fathers expounding them with vs against your mens fancie If S. Augustine changed (o) l. 6 cont Iul. c. 11. vel 23. l. 1. retract c. 23. his exposition of a passage of S. Paul which he had constantly taught before because he perceiued the same was against S. Hilary Gregory Sanctos notosque Doctores Ambrose and other holy and knowne Doctors of the Church Melioribus saith that euer-admired doctor intelligentioribus cessi I yeilded vnto those that were better and more intelligent then my selfe How dare you so peremptorily presume vpon your new deuised exposition contradicted by many not warranted by any ancient Father How did you not feare to lay vpon an exposition receaued generally for many ages in the Church the title of Nody yea to say that the same is backed by noe exemplar proofe besides Hobgoblins (p) let p. 42. 27. What S. Augustine said vnto Iulian the Pelagian who branded the doctrine of original sinne with the title of a Manichean fable may be retorted vpon you that disgrace Purgatory with the style of Satanicall figment Hauing brought six or seauen Fathers for that point of Catholike doctrine he concludeth in this sort saying vnto him (q) l. 1. con Iulia. c. 2. vel 4. finding you in your writings non antelucano conuiuio temulentum sed insano conuitio turbulentum not so much tipled with wine taken next your hart as distempered with senslesse rayling against truth I haue not brought you into Zenocrates schoole where drunken Polemo was made sober but haue summoned you vnto the quiet and venerable assembly of holy Fathers (r) Sanctorum PatruÌ„ pacificum honorandumque consessum Let not my labour be lost behould them that looke on you who sweetly and gently looke on you what sonne are we Maniches are we Hobgoblings or Nodies What can you answere What eies will you lift vp against them You will say you did accuse none of them by name of this errour But what will you do when they shall answere we had rather your rayling teeth should teare our name then our fayth by the merit wherof of our names are written in heauen What sillogismes will you frame What will Aristotles logicke avayle you wherein you would faine shew your selfe skilfull that you may seeme an artificiall disputer against vs Will you dare to drawe your blade of brasse the leaden poyniards of your arguments (Å¿) TuoruÌ„ argumentorum vitrea acies vel plumbei pugiones in their presence What weapons will not tremble and sheuering for feare fall out of your hands (t) Quae abs te arma non fugient nudumque destitueÌ„t dauntted with the maiestie of soe graue a Senate Thus S. Augustine THE FOVRTH CHAPTER THE CHVRCHES PERPETVALL TRADITION to pray for Saints in Purgatory in the next life VVHERE your iâ—sts against the Churches Authorities and Scriptures against this Tradition are answered THAT short and pithy Treatise which you sought to disgrace with froathy lynes alleadged (a) l. 1. p. 1. c. 1. §. 4. for Purgatorie the custome of the Church to pray for the dead and their reliefe in the holy Sacrifice
be purged Doubtlesse Syr Edward the iustest man falleth seauen times a day (l) prou 24. he that saith he hath no sinne light and veniall as S. Augustine expoundeth is a lyar (m) 1. IoaÌ„ 1. who can say that his hart is pure from vaine impertinent thoughts His tongue cleane from idle vnprofitable speach His hands not defiled at least with omissions and slouth and negligences in Gods seruice Doe you see your Iust cannot be in this life without Dust 25. But you answere indeed S. Paul saith haec fuistis but he addeth sed abluti estis but you are washed but you are sanctified but you are iustified in the name of the Lord Iesus and by the spirit of our God This is indeed to alleadge Scriptures for your purpose You speake of washing and cleansing yet except you haue washed away with wine from your tongue this foolish not to say impious abusing of Gods word I dare say your lippes still need to be purged which you seeldome wet I feare in the bath of teares and pennance Are you not skillfull at Scriptures that apply that sentence which was spoken of (o) 1. Cor. 6.11 without which grosse synnes as whoredome theft extorsion and the like which the Corinthians before baptisme committed by baptisme were cleansed from them to the daily veniall offences without which the iust man doth not liue But faith is say you (p) pag. 85. sperandarum rerum hypostasis the ground of thinges to be hoped for from Christ wheras we will haue it thus fides est ferendarum rerum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ground of things that are to be suffered by our selues Thus you I perceaue your Protestant faith is very weak we must not lay any great burden on it of things to be suffered by your selues lesse it breake but of things to be suffered by others as much as we will you can easily endure that others suffer so you be well your selues I much feare that this your faith fainteth in the assured expectation of eternall punishments for grieuous synnes which cannot indure the beliefe of temporall payne for lesser offences I do not now wonder you haue reiected Fastings Pilgrimages Disciplines Hayrecloathes Lying on the ground rysing in the night to pray and sing psalmes to God liuing in perpetuall Chastity wresling with the lustes of the flesh No maruayle I say though you reiect these things your faith is not a ground of pennance nor of any mortifications to be vndergon by your selues 26. Christ must suffer all for you you will not be partners with him in his Passion yet you will share with him in his comforts you will not by your good will haue your finger ake for his loue nor tast the least drop of vinager to purg your sinnefull humours yet will you be as bould as any other except his Iustice keep you back to put your nose into the sweet cupp of his Glory But true faith is a grouÌ„d not only of hope but also of feare As it teacheth vs to expect a full reward if we fullfill Gods commaundements so likwise to be sure of heauie punishments if we contemne them As Christ came downe from Heauen to dye for vs on the Crosse so faith telleth vs we must take vp our crosse a small taske of sorrow and pennance and march after him to Heauen True faith is not an idle beholder either of Heauen or Christ but vrgeth vs to walke by good workes towards the one and by pennance to feele some part of the passion of the other yet is faith defined the ground of things to be hoped for not of things to be suffered by vs or of things suffered by Christ because Christs sufferings for vs and ours in loue and imatation of him are but meanes to conduct vs to God the blessed end hope aymeth at for hope and faith being Theologicall vertues haue for their obiects not Christs sufferings nor our owne but God alone other things faith and hope doth regard only as they are pertinent to God These answeres Syr Edward I feare are to graue both for your head and faith neither will the one vnderstand nor the other beleeue my discourse I labour in vaine either to build pennance or Purgatory on your faith or to beate true learning and diuinity into your head 27. Yet you go forward preaching very grauely to leaue our bitter Purgations and meâ—ily drinke away our sinnes laying all on Christs back S. Paul say you (q) pag. 85. 86. thought it inough to know Christ and him crucified but he is a dullard in your Schoole that knoweth not Purgatory and how he must there be purged As if the Lords Sommer-liuery of euerlasting life were giuen vs only with this prouiso that vnlesse we play the Taylers our selues and make it vp by our Purgations it must neuer come to our backs Thus you Much do you feare I see least you be forced to play the Tayler with a discipline to measure therwith your shoulders and out of the broad-cloath of Christs merits with that sharp payre of sheeres to cut out a Purgatory garment for your owne back Yet I dare say S. Paul was such a Tayler who did not beate the ayre but chastice his body (r) 1. Cor. â— still carried about with him the Mortification of Iesus Christ (Å¿) 2. Cor. 4 that he had the Markes of his Passion in his flesh (t) Gal. 6. to which participation with Christ in paine he may seeme to exhort when he bids vs feele the same in our selues that we see in Christ Iesus (u) Philip. 2. who subiected himself to the death of the Crosse What more frequent in this Blessed Apostle then to exhort meÌ„ to the loue of the Crosse to suffer for Christ to praying fasting giuing of almes and other Penitentiall workes 28. This is indeed to know by experience Christ crucified wherof you talk in the ayre I assure you that a discipline or a whipping for a quarter of an houre would make you conceaue more deeply of Christs bitter Passion better vnderstaÌ„d the great loue he bare you in deliuering you from eternall payne giue you to know your Sauiour either fastened to the Pillar or to the Crosse more perfectly then euer did any Protestants Sermon you heard or meditation you made in your life Had you euer tasted any drop of the sweetnes of Christ crucified you would neuer haue sayd reioycing in your competent Patrimony (x) Counters p. 65. Ditescit cui Christus dulcescit He becometh rich to whom Christ crucified becommeth sweet Such sweetnes did not S. Paul feel in Christ by whose crosse the world to wit riches honour were crucified (z) ad Galat 6. that is were things most hatefull to him The sweetnes of the Crosse wrought otherwise in the blessed Apostles who tastinge thereof left voluntarily and gaue all to the poore Look vpon the Primitiue Saints (a) Antony Hilarion Benedict others you shall
not receaue the Sacrament of Baptisme be not pardoned but punished for euer If any sinne after Baptisme his pleasure is that no pardon or remissiō be giuen except he yield humbly and penitently to confesse his sinnes if any refuse to obey so reasonable a law what wrong is done to Christ if such pride be sent to Hell The wicked are condemned not against his will but by his order not out of defect of his meritts but out of their stubburnnes malice It is also Christs holy will that in sinnes committed after Baptisme the whole guilt of payne be not euer forgiuen but sometimes he reserueth a conuenient taske of temporall paine according to the measure his diuine wisdom thinketh best For which we must endeauour to satisfy by fasting praying or other voluntary afflictions or else with a patient acceptance of such crosses as shall be sent by the hand of God 34. This Doctrine strikes you to the heart You bring two principles you were taught in logick against it First the cause say you taken away the effect ceaseth punishment is the effect of synne ergo when synne is remitted punishments must needs cease This your logicke if we yield vnto it will beate out our eyes and force vs to deny euen what we dayly see and feele to wit that punishments and penalties may remaine though the sinne be forgiuen What are death hunger thirst and other miseries of this life but effects of originall sinne Is not that sinne forgiuen vnto Christians in baptisme yet those that are baptized and borne anew in Christ endure the former penalties and punishments of that sinne though the same be pardoned God pardoned Dauids Synne (m) 2. Reg. 12. Dominus transtulit à te peccatum tuum God hath taken thy sinne from thee but did all temporall punishment cease togeather with the sinne No. The sinne was remitted with a But thou shalt indure these an◠these dreadfull afflictions because thou hast made the name of God to be blasphemed 35. I will not stand to confirme this truth out of Scriptures nor out of Fathers only because you stand vpon Athanasius whome you call your Arbitrator (n) Lett. pag. 43. and say that he will not affoarde vs one sillable to saue our liues your ignorance shall receiue doome by his sentence euen in that very Treatise Thus he writeth There is great difference (*) De verbis Christi Si quis dixerit verbum c. saith he betwixt pennance and baptisme he that repenteth ceaseth to sinne but still retayneth the skarrs of his wound but he that is baptized putteth of the old man is then renevved from heauen and as it vvere borne againe by the spirit of grace Doe you see Syr how many syllables this Fathers lendeth vs to know the difference betweene baptisme and pennance for sins cōmitted after baptisme what are those skarrs which still remaine after pennance but not after baptisme You cānot say they are bad inclinations customes for those remaine after baptisme nor the miseries penalties of this mortall life for from the necessitie enduring such crosses baptisme doth not exempt I see not what else can be imagined to remaine after pennance and not after baptisme besides the guilt of temporall paine which we must willingly vndergoe to satisfy for the sins after baptisme which skarrs woūds if we heale not in this life by plaisters of pēnance they must be seared in the next by Purgatory fire 36. Now your logicall Axiome against this verity that the effect ceaseth the cause being taken away who doth not se that it faileth in a thousand examples The Sonne is an effect of the Father can not he liue though his Father be dead the fyre causeth heat yet we see that heat doth often remaine long time after the fyre is put out The truth is that Principle is only true quando Effectus pendet à Causa in esse conseruari when not only the first being of the effect dependeth on the cause but also the conseruation therof as the light of the Sun which the Sun doth not only bring forth but also cōserue vanisheth away togeather with the same Punishment is the effect of sinne nothing but sinne could produce that guilt in our soule yet when it is once in the soule the cōseruation dependeth on the will of God It cannot cease but when and in what manner he will haue it cease either remitting the whole guilt as in Baptism or els reseruing some part of the penalty as he doth often in the sinnes we commit after Baptisme Not that the merits of Christ be not sufficient alone without our pēnance and satisfaction to do away both the eternall and temporall punishment but for the other reasons his diuine wisdome knoweth 37. This wisdome you would proue to be folly by another Axiome of your Logick Frustra fit per plura say you (o) Lett. pag. 38. quod fieri potest per pauciora It is vaine to vse many meanes when fewer will suffice the Iordan of Christs bloud alone sufficeth to wash away the leprosie of Naaman what need he be bathed in Abanak of his owne pēnance or in the Pharphar of Purgatory flames Syr I must accuse eyther your memory or your Maister either he did not teach you that Principle right or els since you haue let fall some wordes therof out of your mind to wit aequè bene when the thing may be done by fewer meanes altogeather as well to multiply meanes is vaine and idle which two wordes wanting your Principle is false Christ might haue redeemed the world with one drop of his bloud was the rest therfore shed in vaine No because it did serue to make his excessiue loue more manifest vnto vs. So likewise though by the bloud of Christ sinnes may be forgiuen fully and perfectly in Pēnance after Baptisme as well as in Baptisme yet the wisdome of God hath thought it more for his owne honour and for our profit to enable vs to do some part of this pēnance our selues by the help of his grace 38. First that we might more deeply conceaue of the malice of sinne and Gods hatred against it Secondly that by feeling some temporall smart our gratitude towardes Christ might encrease who deliuered vs freely from the eternall Thirdly that we may more carefully for the time to come auoid sinne flying from the shadow therof as from an Adder (p) Quasi à facie colubri fuge peccatū Eccl. 21. Fourthly that by voluntary Pēnance we might more estrange our selues (q) Felix necessitas quae ad meliora compellit from the dangerous pleasures of this world and alluring sent of the sinfull flesh Fiftly that this happy necessity of doing of Pennance might force vs to retyrednes where God speaketh to the hart (r) Ducā in solitudinem loquar ad cor Osee 2. Sixtly that by this occasion we might try what without triall can hardly be belieued the comfortes that
are found in a penitentiall life which are so great that S. Augustine out of his owne exprience of both saith More pleasant be the teares of pēnance then any recreation of playes (ſ) Dulciores sūt lachrimae poenitentium quà m gaudia theatrorum August in Confess Seuenthly that to redeeme our sinnes we might more carefully supply the necessity of the poore purchasing vs frēds by sinfull Mammon (t) Luc. 36. that when the soule flitteth from the body they may receaue her into the eternall Tabernacle Finally and principally that hedged in by fyre we might run with armes spread abroad to imbrace Christ crucified and seeke to be like to the forme by which we are saued crucifiyng our bodies with the concupiscences thereof (u) ad Galat 5. which is one of the principall thinges which in gratitude he requires of vs. 39. What S. Augustine said of Hell fire vnder paine whereof God commandeth his loue (x) l. 1. confess c. 5. Quid mihi es Miserere vt loquar Quid tibisum vt amari te iubeas à me nisi faciam irascaris mineris ingentes miserias Hei mihi Paruáne est ipsa miseria si non amem te Lord what am I that thou shouldest command me to loue and threaten eternall punishment if I loue thee not Is it not misery enough of it selfe not to loue thee the like might we say of Purgatory which bindeth vs to tast by imitatiō more abundantly of Christs sweet Crosse then else happily many would Lord what are we that thou wilt haue vs cōformable to the figure of thy crucified Sonne That thou dost force vs with fire to tast of his sweetnes Can any greater felicitie befall a man then not to be like vnto that heauenly Patterne To liue an idle and wanton limme of that body whose head is pierced with Thorns (z) Non decet sub spinoso capite membrū esse delicatum These meditations Syr Edward were they as frequent in your minde as are prophane iests rife in your mouth Pēnance Satisfaction and bearing part of Christ his passion to purge sinne would not seeme so burdensome to your faith neyther would you thinke such endeuours iniurious vnto Christs bloud whence they spring and take their vertue yea perchance you would preferre our Catholik Pēnance Purgatory before your Protestant pleasant life and heauen on earth whereof I should conceaue greater hope did not vaine and worldly delights hold you backe more strongly then the misapplied textes of Scripture you pretend THE FIFTH CHAPTER THE MIRACLES of the B. Virgin at Hall and Sichem AND OTHER CATHOLIKE MIRACLES ARE PROOVED Authenticall against the Prophane iestes of the Letter and Countersnarle And that they cannot be Antichrists Wonders THE last Squadron of the fower enemies your Letter mustreth against Purgatory are prophane iestes which sauour of Irreligion These runne so fast from your penne that either it preuenteth your thoughts or your thoughts be deeply taynted with that most deadly corruption I will here alledg an example or two thereof which conteine more Atheisme then I hope you did perceiue therein when you let them passe to the print You are very inquisitiue to know (a) Lett. pag. 79 in what degree of eleuation of the Pole Purgatory is seated How many myles from the infernall Cape Beda's ghoast say you cōmeth somwhat neer the marke in his Card who placeth it vnder the earth in the suburbs of Hell yet Alcuinus may be belieued as well who peremptorily maintayneth that it is scituate in the Ayre Hence you conclude quod vbique est nullibi est it is in so many places that indeed it is in no place This is the assault or onset by which you seeke to beate Purgatorie out of the world But the Captaine Maior of your argument repeated againe in your (b) pa. 17. Counter-snarle to wit qui vbique nullibi who is euery where is indeed no where if it be true is able to beate God into nothing who cannot be conceiued without immensitie or a being euery where if you belieue not the royall Prophet who could find no place in heauen or earth or hell to ly hidden from his sight and presence (c) Psal 138. v. 6.7.8 perhaps you will credit your Poet who singeth Iouis plena sunt omnia Sea Earth Ayre Heauen all things are full of God 2. But taking your Proposition in the best sense to wit that the thing might be iustly thought not to be which learned men cannot tell certainely and determinatly where it is yet is the impiety therof exceeding great For do not Deuines both Catholiks and Protestants disagree about the place of the soule after separation from the body About the part of the world wherein God sheweth himselfe to his Saints May one thence inferr quod vbique nullibi That the soule after her diuorcement from the body is in so many places that she is indeed in no place Doe not learned Christians likewise dissent about the situation of Hell Some say Diuells and Men are punished in the Ayre others vnder Earth In so much as S. Augustine sayth (d) Lib. 20. de Ciuit. c. 6. In qua mundi parte sit futurus infernus hominum arbitror scire neminem nisi fortè cui spiritus diuinus ostendit In what coast of the world Hell is placed I thinke no mortall man can tell except perchance the spirit of God hath reuealed it to some will any true Christian argue in your forme Hell is in so many places that it is indeed noe where I think not Neither would you bring the doubtfullnes of Purgatories distance frō the infernall Cape as a reason to make away with it did you not want either Religion in your hart or true diuinitie in your Cape 3. Another example of prophanesse and want of Religion you giue in your perpetuall Iesting at Miracles which confirme any point of Religion especially this of Purgatorie which Miracles you tearme (e) Lett. p. 40. 41. such graue Miracles that it would make a horse breake his haulter to see them And in the margent you say yea Bellarmins deuout Marc which your wanton Hobby named only to beget a foole on her thought you might better haue turned him loose to Balaams (f) Num. 22. prudent Asse where perchance he might haue learned this point of wisdome that there is a God whom euen bruit beastes feel and in their manner serue and adore who is able when he pleaseth to make thē bray more wisely thē you do speak 4. But no where do you shew your prophanesse more then in scoffing at the miracles of our B. Lady of Hall registred by Lipsius which you deride in so rude a manner as it may wel seeme you did both read Lipsius his story and write your owne letter (g) Lett. pag. 102. rosting crabbs by the fire side A Miracle cōcerning a Faulkner deliuered from death by her mercifull intercession Lipsius (h) c.
Miracles true that they are beneficiall both to the body and soule of men which therefore without blasphemy may not be giuen from God to the Diuel Those wicked spirits do seeke in their workes to make themselues Mirabiles non vtiles as S. Augustine sayth wonderfull not beneficiall vnto men they desire to amaze and astonish rather then help and relieue mens senses Such are Miracles which Antichrist shall worke as making the picture of a beast speak bringing downe fire from heauen faygning himself dead and rising againe For neither is the Diuel so curteous towards mankind that he will bestow benefits on their bodies nor God so hard as to let him entrap their soules by so strang illusions as multitudes of such Miraculous helpes and benefits are Now the Miracles of the B. Virgin and other wherewith God doth dayly adorne our Churches are sutable to such as Christ wrought and haue still bene done by Saints in all ages since as casting out of Diuells healing of incurable diseases deliuering from dreadfull dangers and the like which either deforme or afflict mankind some punishments layd on blasphemers excepted which are so few as they may seeme a drop or two of gall in a sea of hony which is a signe they proceed from a boundles oceā of goodnes through the sweet conduct of the intercession of his B. Mother Yet the benefits which by these Miracles come to mens soules are greater whē by them some are conuerted from heresie others reclaimed from bad life many perswaded to frequent Sacramentes to make sorowfull Confession of their sinnes restore things vniustly taken satisfy for wronges offered spend much time in praier to be bountifull to the poore finally to giue themselues to heroicall exercise of Christian vertues Which thinges with great ioy Catholikes do dayly behould and haue cause therin to glorify God 35. But a greater fruit reaped from our Miracles and a clearer signe that they are of God is the Conuersion of Infidels Many Countryes partly by these meanes partly by the good life of our Religious Preachers of Gods word haue byn in this age wone to Christ to the increase of the Christiā name These Miracles haue bin so clear the fruit of thē so manifest that some learned Protestants (x) Phlip Nicolai de Regno Christ l. 1. pag. 312. 313. 314. Iesuitae licèt Idolo latrae sint tamē possunt per Nomen Christi magnas virtutes cōdere apud Indos herein not vnlike to the Magicians of Egipt acknowledged both in the Miracles and conuersion the finger of God But they add that such Miracles (z) Iesuitae in prima Indorum Conuersione sese Lutheranos siue Euāgelicos praebent Ibid p. 53. are done in the confirmation of the Protestant Ghospell which the Iesuites preach in those Countryes I thinke sobriety will smile at the Protestants felicity in this point who may sit by the fire side or ly quiet in their warme beds whilest the Iesuites go into barbarous Countries to worke Miracles to proue forsooth their Ghospell that Fryars may marry Nunnes and be saued in idle life by sole faith I should thinke it more probable that Luther in his nights conference with the Diuell (a) De Missa Angulari did conuert and make him a friend vnto Christ that now he will be content to work Miracles to glorify and extoll his name 36. My sixt and last reason is the prouidence of God most desirous of the saluation of mankind not permitting them to be tempted aboue their power (b) 1. Cor. 10. Much lesse will he lend his infinit power vnto Sathā to tempt (c) Iacob 1. Deus intentator malorum men that they may be damned Some few toyes and trifles God doth permit to try the constancy of his faithfull as were the Miracles the Donatists did bragg of (q) Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 16 strang visions that their sacred Sisters saw sleeping or dreamed of waking Those which Antichrist shall worke are greater yet the vanity of such signes a constant faith with competent diligence may easily discouer but the Catholike miracles are many great and most witnessed as hath bene proued Such I say they are that our aduersaries in the end are forced to grant that they are true miracles done by Gods owne hand which no power vnder his oronipotency can worke 37. Now their last refuge is that which your great Champion M. Whitaker betakes (e) VVhitak de Eccles pag. 348. Nō ignoro vera miracula non nisi diuina vi fieri posse himselfe vnto to wit that true Mirarcles which none but God can doe though knowne to be such (f) Ex neutro genere miraculorum sufficiens testimoniū aut certū argumentum colligitur doe not demonstrate the truth of religion He giueth this desperate reason to wit (g) Constat Deum nō modò veris sed falsis Doctoribus vim tribuere huiusmodi Miracula faciēdi non tamen quò confirmet eorum falsa dogmata sed quo tentet eos ad quos mittantur that God doth giue power to worke true Miracles vnto false teachers not to confirme their false opinions saith he but to tempt those vnto whom they are sent Can any doctrine be more dreadfull or harsh in a Christians eare then this How can any man know that God doth not allow that doctrine which false prophets say he doth allow and shew his broad seale for their saying But this M. Whitaker cannot deny but that Catholikes at the day of Iudgment may haue that plea which a learned and ancient Father thought inuincible which he setts downe for our comfort in these words (h) Rich. de S. Vict. l. 1. de Trinit c. 2. Domine si error est quod credimus à te deceptisumus O Lord if it be an errour which we belieue we are deceaued by thee for thou hast confirmed these thinges to vs with such signes and wonders which could not be done but by thee Protestants will grant that we are deceaued by God by the wonders Miracles which our teachers said that he wrought worketh by thē to cōfirme this truth yet say they we must be dāned The best is we firmely belieue God is not Sathan nor a tempter of men much lesse will he worke Miracles to deceaue them least of all lend the Diuell his omnipotency to draw such as desire to serue and loue him for euer to Hell This is our comfort grounded vpon an infinite goodnes which is so great that we cannot enuy you the mirth you take in reading our Miracles and roasting your crabbs by the fire side to driue away your melancholy fits God send you greater comfort in the next world and that you may not there eate sower crabs and worse meate (i) Caput aspidum suget Iob. 20. with Infidells deriding the Miracles of Christ at that dreadfull fire that hath no end 38. Here I might end Purgatories Triumph ouer your