or the Romane people or anie other should be invested with power to create the Emperour of the West I see no Reason to argue upon that maine point in this place or at this instant 6. You lay to my charge that I utter contradictions to the sayings of Popes and the Decrees of Councels yet you know there is no such matter I onely averre that Leo did what he then did not by anie Right annexed or inherent in his Pontificiall Power whereas the said Popes and the Councell speake de Facto of the fact it selfe and perhaps de alio jure humanâ— of some other humane Right whereof I make no manner of mention 7. You made no bones to affirme in your former objections against my first Proposition that Authoritie to chuse the Prince in case of necessitie resteth in the Subjects or People and now you denie the Romane people had any power to chuse Charles for their Emperour 8. You stick not also to approve the Election of the Emperour made by the Armie and Romane Militia which was a violent Election Augustus was honoured with power of Tribune after Caesar the lawfull Prince of the Romanes he was not elected by the Armie but by the People from whom he obtained the consular Power though hee was afterward confirmed therein by a violent Election of the Armie to which the Romane People not of Power then to beard or brave the Armie were glad to give faire Aime and to make way by condescention As for St. Jerome by you cited Hetrodox he speakes onely of the Fact hee doth not affirme that way and none other was the lawfull way of chusing their Emperours And this I must now tell you Hetrodox is most certaine that Vespasian had no humour to be elected but by the votes and suffrages of the Romane People with the verie same power of Augustus I appeale to that famous Marble in the Capitoll with title of Lex Regia c. 9. You give approbation to the violent Fact of the Souldiers in Armes who shew Maximus Balbinus because they had beene elected by the Senate whereas the Election was fastne by the Lawes and sowed to the peoples arme because the Romane Government was Democraticall 10. Platina with divers other Authors hath testified that Charles the Great was onely declared Emperour by the Pope with a loud voice and that Leo crowned him Scito precibus Populi Romani by Decree and upon the suite of the Romane People Now to the same Dâ—cree you bring this fine interpretation that doubtlesse the people did not decree that Leo should publish proclaim and crown him Emperor but only they should request Leo to doe it propriâ authoritate by his Papall authoritie A man that lookes not well into this quaint device and slie tricke may thinke and say the Romane people passed the same Decree in a certaine conceit or dreame that such power was devolved to them in case of necessitie and not otherwise by Right But you against reason and right sense of the words will have the Fact attributed to the Pope who by right of Popedome could worke no such effect and so you forsake the ordinarie waies for approbation of the Fact seeking the refuge of extraordinarie waies not intelligible 11. You produce that for a Reason which resteth in the Question For as you pretend and contend to translate Empires and States it is enough for one to be Pope This you confirme because some Popes though but a few have had the spirit and face to worke such fâ—ats and to play such prankes The most of those few have indeed given the attempt but I beseech you Sir with what successe And albeit some few but verie seldome have not missed of their marke this makes no proofe that anie Pope either doth it or can do it as he is Pope For Arguments drawne from the Fact to the Right are not worth a blew point especiallie when the right is contrarie to the Fact For the Pontificiall See as it is the Pontificiall See not having the exercise of anie such Dominion annexed thereunto neither by the example of Christ our Lord or of all the Popes for many hundred yeares nor by any Text of holy Scripture whensoever the Pope hath exercised any such Dominion to render a Reason thereof it shall not be needfull to run or flye to the Popedome but rather to some humane constitution or violence or Title 12. Last of all you declare a strange vaine of distemper in telling me this Doctrine that no exercise of Temporall Dominion is annexed to the Popedome by Gods Word is an errour in Theologie and an Herefie in Historie You must now be contented if I pay you in the same Coyne that for any to say the contrarie it is an Errour in Historie and nothing conformable to Theologie as before hath beene declared Have you now anie new tire of Ordnance to discharge Hetrodox Not against your third Proposition Orthodox But have at your fourth to morrow morning Orthodox Agreed Hetrodox The fourth daies Conference upon the fourth Proposition Hetrodox WEll met valiant Champion Defendant Orthodox And you mighty Champion opponent Are your Peeces for batterie readie to discharge Hetrodox At first sight of your Sconce Orthodox Here it is in all Dimensions and Delineations That Authoritie which Christ our Lord promised to St. Peter under a Metaphor of Keyes is meerly Spirituall I will give thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven hee saith not of any earthlie Kingdome For in what manner the Temporall Kingdome and Monarchie should be governed the Plat-forme was drawn and the Foundation was laid from the beginning of the World by God himselfe great Monarch of the universe So that Christ our Saviour never founded the Temporall Monarchie it remaines then that he was the Founder of the Spirituall And that 's most evident in St. Johns Gospell Ioan. 20. For after he had said all power is given unto mee both in Heaven and in Earth Ioan. 20. at anie hand he would give the same to Peter and all the rest of his Apostles with a certain limitation He breathed on them all and said receive the Holie Ghost to whomsoever ye shall remit sinnes they shall be remitted and whose sinnes whosoever ye shall retaine they shall be retained From whence it is to be gathered both by the Act of Christ and by his words that all the authoritie of the highest Bishop is meerly Spirituall over sin and onely over the Soule which power as hath beene said is a limited power Qui beato Petro animas ligandi atque solvendi Pontificium tradidisti who hast given Peter the Dignitie and Power of Pontificiall estate to bind and loose innumerable Soules Mat. 18. Thus the Church you know in her Orisons yea the Authority to excommunicate given to Peter himselfe is tyed to a condition If thy Brother shall sinne against thee and shall not heare the Church let him be unto thee as a verie Ethnick and
as a Publicane where our Saviour gives Authority to Excommunicate but with a supposition of sin and of obstinate persisting in sinne Hetrodox Verily Orthodox you seeme to paire the nailes of Pontificiall power so near that you give me just cause to suspect you believe that our holy Father the Pope is but simple Priest or Curate without any lawfull Jurisdiction and that hee can doe no more but exhort to the obedient keeping of Gods Law as every ordinary Preacher doth or Baptise and confesse the people as every common Curate doth And so it seems you seek to revoke and to renew the Heresie of the Valdenses or Lionists of Wickliffe Mansilius of Padua and Iohn Huss which blind and pestiferous Heresie is caressed or embraced by all moderne Heretiques But I must come to a more narrow sifting of your words First You say the Popes power is meerly Spirituall To what end serves your meerlie was it not enough to say it is a Spirituall power was it not better to say it is principally Spirituall Navarrus whom you so highly commend Cap. Novit de judiciis and exhort all men to reade with diligence and great attention saith vâ—ry well that surely the Popes power is not meerly Temporall but he never saith it is meerly Spirituall as if the Pope could not in any sort shuffle and cut the Cards of Temporall affaires Nay hee further termes it a most eminent power which in it selfe being Spirituall and by consequence far Superiour to the Temporall both can and ought also to set the Temporall strait when it growes crooked or goes out of the right path And whereas our Saviour Christ said I will give thee the Keyes not of any Terrene Kingdome but of the Celestiall Kingdome or the Church of Christ hath said he that gives the Celestiall Kingdome takes not away Earthly Kingdomes or your selfe Orthodox hath said the Temporall Monarchie was founded of old from the beginning of the World surely none of all this makes either for the fortifying of your Sconce or to the weakening of my Campe For herein you affirme thus much and no more The Kingdome of Christ whereof Peter the Apostle received the keyes is no Temporall Kingdome which one cannot acquire but some other must lose but it is a Kingdome which governes all other Kingdomes without spoyling any man of that Dominion which by good just and lawfull right he holds Otherwise you might say as well that God himselfe hath no power over Temporall matters because God himselfe the giver of Heavenly Kingdomes is no robber and spoiler of mens Earthly Inheritances Againe you say Christ gave his Apostles and Peter a power but yet restrained Ioan. 20. and not without limitation that is a power over sinnes because he breathed on them all and said Receive the Holy Ghost c. This you cannot be ignorant is the Heresie of those who rob the Pope and the Church of all Jurisdiction an Heresie condemned by Christ himselfe in the very same place a little before the words now cited For before the words Quorum remiseritis c. whose sinnes ye shall remit shall be remitted he saith Sicut misit me Pater as the Father hath sent me into the World so doe I send you forth in which words he gave them absolute power and without limitation to governe the Church in his owne roome Hereupon Divines teach that in these words he gave the power of Jurisdiction in the other the power of Order And when afterward he said to Peter in the Chapter next following Pasce oves feed my sheepe doubtlesse he restrained not power to Absolution from sinne but hee gave a most ample power to rule and governe the whole Church For the word Pasce Feed is the very same in the Greeke language wherein St. Iohn did write his Gospell which is used in St. Iohns Revelation he shall rule them with a rod of Iron Apoc. 19. Mich. 2. as also in the Prophet as is translated by the Septuagint Ex te mihi erit Dux qui regat populum meum Israel out of thee shall come a Captaine unto me that shall rule my people Israel Mat. 16. So that by the usuall phrase of Scripture to make St. Peter a Shepheard or Feeder was to make him Ruler Governour and Prince of the whole Church So when Christ said to Peter whatsoever thou shalt loose or bind he restrained not the power unto sin nor unto the persons for he said not Quemcuuque but Quodcunque not whomsoever but whatsoever thou shalt binde or loose His meaning was to signifie and expresse an universall power of Binding and Loosing that is of commanding of making Lawes of Dispensing as it should be found needfull for the leading and bringing in of the Faithfull into the Kingdome of Heaven with most full and ample authoritie to enjoyne every man what he should believe and likewise to labour and to remove all the rubs blocks and impediments whereby they might be crossed in the way of Salvation as Cardinall Bellarmine hath declared at great length You give me thirdly to understand that our holy Father the Pope hath power onely over Soules and this you draw from that Prayer of the Church Deus qui Petro animas ligandi c. O God who hast given Peter the power of Pontificiall Dignity to bind and to loose the Soules of men If this Reason hath any force then secular Princes must have no power but over the Soules of their Subjects because Paul saith Let every soule be subject unto the higher powers And so either you make your selfe too simple as one who doth not consider that in Scripture the soule is taken for the whole man or else you seeke to catch the simple with words of holy Church not right understood And therefore perhaps the Divine providence to take away the like deceitfull sleights and flie shifts hath inspired the Reformers of the Breviarie to lib and geld the said Prayer of the word Soules which of old neither was found in the said Prayer nor ought at all there to be read because that Prayer was founded and formed upon the foresaid words in the Gospell whatsoever thou Peter shalt binde and whatsoever thou shalt loose Last of all you contend that power to excommunicate is conditionall presupposing sin and obstinacie in sin This Doctrine is both new and false you are not able to produce any Author that ever so taught Sinne I confesse must be presupposed for Excommunication is a punishment and the most grievous the most dreadfull of all other so that no sinne committed no punishment by Excommunicarion can be inflicted Disobedience also otherwise called contumacie is I confesse againe presupposed a sinne and to Excommunicate every sinne gives not sufficient warrant but only that sinne which is cloathed or clogged rather with Contumacie For Christ saith Si Ecclesiam non audierit If he will not heare the Church The censure therefore of Excommunication cannot be denounced against
Secondly he should have a holy designe to attempt and enterprise the hardest labours of all other as to tumble the great Turke downe from his Imperiall Throne to pull his Regall Crowne from his Royall Head or to convert all the Indies or to reduce the whole World to the unity of the Church and such like matters of the highest stuffe which because the Pope neither will nor can performe it is easie for all men to judge that his Holinesse for all your sayings doth not governe all Kingdomes as God himselfe doth 7. Moreover you faine would make men believe that as God governes all Kingdomes not depriving any of their Free-hold whether it be Kingdome or Power so the Pope governes Kingdomes and takes not power from Kings First because those words of the Church are spoken of Christ man and not of of Christ God as the Lord Cardinall saith of whom Herod was afraid that he would spoile him of his Kingdome Hostes Herodes impie Christum venire quid times O ungodly enemie King Herod what ayles thee to be afraid of Christs comming Then Secondly because no man is to busie himself like a Polypragmon with exercise of Temporall power within the Dominions of any other Prince as a Prince Independent neither can any man exercise the said power therein without robbing the said Prince of his lawfull power within his owne Dominions what man ever enriched himselfe without impoverishing of some other 8. Again you make it a crime no lesseheinous then Herefie for any man to teach the power of Jurisdiction given to the Apostles is the very same power which Christ himselfe gave My reading tels me not a word of any other Text where our Lord Christ hath given his Apostles the power of Jurisdiction Ioan. 20. yea all the Doctors nay Christ himselfe doth not furnish mee with any other Text but in the same he teacheth us three things the first is Data est mihi omnis potestas in Coelo in terrâ All power is given to me both in Heaven and in Earth And this he speakes to teach that his good will and pleasure was to communicate some part of his entire and absolute power unto his Apostles The second Sicut misiit me Pater ego mitto vos As my Father hath sent me so I send you that is my Father sent me to take away to cancell all bonds for sinne and to worke all that which Hetrodox and Cardinal Bellarmine hath produced and alledged conatrry to the foresaid second Proposition and in like sort I send you now O my Apostles to doe and performe the said workes In which words our Saviour Christ made not his Apostles entercommoners with himselfe in his whole Spirituall Power â— No no such matter for hee communicated not unto them the power say we to absolve without Sacraments nor power to institute Sacraments c. nor the power of his owne Spirituall and Heavenly Kingdome so that Sicut the word As must be taken in a limited sense and not without some dooles and bounders of Limitation The third that Christ breathed on the Apostles and said Receive ye the Holy Ghost whose sinnes ye shall remit c. There our Saviour Christ likewise limits the word Sicut As That is to say I give you Spirituall Jurisdiction over Soules and over sinnes O my deare and faithfull servants Can there be any doubt or question hereof No verily For here the promise is fulfilled What promise The same that Christ made to Peter and the rest of the Apostles under the Metaphor of Binding and Loosing of locking up in Prison with Keyes and of delivering from Prison by the same Keyes This runs currant and so shall runne so long as the houre-glasse of old Father Time hath a drop of water or a crum of sand to let fall That for certaine the servitude or bondage from which we are delivered by Christ is the slaverie of sinne so that our liberty must needs be the liberty of Grace Mat. 18. And that is the reason wherefore the promise of Christ made in Metaphoricall Speech is expounded in these plaine and proper termes whose sinnes ye shall forgive Ioan. 20. c. For to locke and to deliver with Keyes to bind and to let loose to forgive and to retaine sinnes are phrases of Speech importing and signifying one thing partly according to proper and partly according to Metaphoricall Construction 9. You maintaine that Pontificiall power is unlimited but I cannot see your Assertion backt with any Reason or Authority neither can I find with what Leggs it walkes or upon what stumps it stands For the Lord God alone is cloathed and armed with unlimited power The Principall himselfe is invested with unlimited power but so is not his Vicar or Vice-gerent And besides to speake out of the teeth be you never so loth to heare it I cannot see how it is not repugnant unto Christian Faith to affiâ—me the whole power that Christ had himsâ—lâ—e as Head of the Church and that now he retaineth in Heaven hee hath communicated to the Pope which doubtlesse whosoever affirmes if your selfe be the affirmant he affirmes who affirmes the Popes Power is without limitation Ioan. 20. 10. Againe You have heard me onely stand for the power of Jurisdiction which our Saviour gave in these words Receive ye the Holy Ghost and you now urge the word Pasce Feed which word wraps in both powers not only the power of Jurisdiction but also the power of Oâ—der 11. I have not restrained the Popes Power to this or that kind of Subjâ—cts but have onely spoken in generall and have yeelded to the Pope all that Spirituall Jurisdiction By like Hetrodox you thinke that you talke and conferre with a man of Wood with a stock that hath not so much as the least sparke of Discourse or of Religion upon the Subject now in conference But you shall find your selfe deceived and that you have to deale with an Antagonist neither stock-like nor block-like 12. Without any occasion you passe over the River to the Pastures I meane to the word Pasce Feed and here you say that in the originall Greeke it signifies Peter governe and rule my Lambes Now Sir I doe not deny that Christ is the Spirituall King and Pastor of the Church or that as Temporall Kings in Scripture are called Pastors Feeders and Shepheards in Temporals even so Christ himselfe the Pastor is likewise King in Spirituals Nor doe I deny the Pope to be Christs Vicar and vice-roy with a limited Power in Spirituals a power every way most eminent as extending over Christian soules But from this can you Hetrodox well collect and gather that our Holy Father the Pope is a Temporall King much lesse a Spirituall King as Christ is himselfe and least of all that hee hath any Temporall Power by right of hiâ— Pontificiall Dignity and Authority St. John takes up the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twice and the
word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but once Hee thereby expounds that one word with two words which without all doubt signifie Pasce Feed Nay the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 properly signifies to feed and by a Metaphor to rule and governe as in the aforesaid Text as in this Text of St. Johns Revelation All this makes much against you Hetrodox and nothing at all to favour your cause Will you now give mee leave to make good my Exposition of the word Pasce Feed with Authority of the holy Fathers Hetrodox Proceed at your pleasure Orthodox Ter dictum est Pasce c. Three times over the Lord Christ repeated the word Feed to St. Peter And wherefore thrice Forsooth to intimate that all such as are charged with cure of soules are bound to feed their People triplici Pastu with a three-fold Dyet namelie with the Food of Gods heavenly word with Food of good Example in life and with Temporall Aid so far as their meanes are not wanting But alasse this three-fold Feeding is now adaies changed by unconscionable shepheards into a three-fold polling and pelting of their Flocks by pilling and pinching their Subjects with intollerable burthens of exactions without anie due regard at all to the said three-fold Feediâ—g Thus Chrysostome Hom. 87. Perpende verba Pasce agnos meos c. weigh these words of Christ well Feed my Lambes that is Feed my faithfull Flock not thine use them not as thy proper Possession but as mine I therefore asked if thou lovest mee O Peter because I have a purpose to recommend my little Flocke to thy Feeding and to bee kept of thee as mine owne Goods and Cattells that love which thou bearest my selfe in profession I would have thee shew and practise towards my tender Lambes Fat not pamper not up thy selfe like those unfaithfull Shepheards of whom the holy Prophet cryed Ezech. 34. Vae Paestoaibus woe to the Shepheards of Israel that have fed their owne bellies That man that feeds himselfe who gapes after his owne gaine who hunts after his owne glorie who removes every stone for his owne commodity never sâ—eking for the benefit of the Faithfull over whom hee beares rule never aiming at Gods glorie in exercising the state and office of a Ruler Tract 132. in Ioannâ—m Thus far St. Augustine Qui hoc animo pascunt ones c. Such as feed the Flock with a mind to make the sheep their owne and none of Christs doubtlesse beare no love at all to Christ himselfe St. Augustine againe Ibid. Sicut oves meas Pasce non sicut tuas Feed the Flock as my sheepe and not as thine owne Cattle in them seeke my Glory my gaine and neither thine owne gaine or thine owne glorie This Peter himselfe hath also taught Feed the Flock of God which dependeth upon you 1 Petr. 5. caring for it not by constraint but willingly not for filthy lucre but of a ready mind not as if ye were Lords over Gods heritage but that ye may be examples to the Flock These be the exercises of the true Shepheard and thus the words Feed my Lambes are to be understood and not that the Popes Feeding should be a Temporall reigning over all Temporall Kings The holy Fathers you see Hetrodox teach the contray namely that hee ought carefelly to shun and avoid all filthy Lucre Acquists Glory Dominion c. 13. Againe by Quodcunque solveris whatsoever thou Peter shalt loose you understand every thing And by this means the Pope shall have power to untie all knoâ—s to set open all prisons to transferre all Kingdomes to deliver all the slaves in Turkie at his pleasure nay to solve all difficulties in all matters whatsoever What man doth not perceive the fâ—lsity of this Doctrine Our Lord Christ câ—me to deliver Soules from sinne and as the onely Redeemer So teach all Divines The Pope by like shall worke the same effects hee shall cooperate in this great worke of Redemption he shall bind and loose the sinnes of 〈◊〉 you have no reason Hetrodox to cast such colours on your false opinions whereby to make the Pope Lord and Patrone of every thing with a Quodcunque whatsoever For â—â—ere is no such matter as you conceive in your dreames 14. Againe the word Soule is understood and taken sometimes for the whole man and sometimes for the Spirit of man above according to the matter handled Now your Argument is drawne from one place to another For St. Paul speaks of Temporall Dominion The word Omnis anima every Soule in understood of power over mens bodies and in Temporality But because our Lord Christ gave Spirituall Power to Peter the word Animas Soules which is used in the Prayer of the Church doth signifie the Spirit or Soule of Man and not his Body in Spirituality forsooth and not in Temporality 15. Those who wiped the word Animas out of the Breviâ—rie were inspired as you believe by the Holy Spirit of God I never yet read or heard that Gods owne Spirit is the Author of Dissention strife or Discord But well I wot Peace is one of the Gifts or Fruits of the Holy Spirit The makers of the foresaid Prayer aymed at the Exposition of these words Quodcunque ligvaeris whatsoever thou shalt bind by the word Animas and by that other Text Quorum remiseritis peccata whose sinnes ye remit as a just exposition of the word Animas because all sinnes to speake properly are bred and hatcht up in the Soule not in the Bodie And this they did to a speciall end and purpose namely to drive certaine Opinastres from their Tenent or hold That Popes are Domini in Temporalibus Spiritualibus the absolute Lords over mens goods their Bodies and Soules with a power to bind and loose all things as it seemes your selfe Hetrodox is of the same opinion This Exposition they made by the word Animas and by the same exposition they produced an excellent remedy against all Discords which might grow betweene the Pope and other Princes about Meuâ—â— Tuum about Mine Thine whereas on the other side those who last spung'd the Breviarie by taking away the word Animas have ministred new Tinder and Match to kindle the Coales of great contention discord and litigious quarrels Besides it is not unknowne to the World that in the Bookes of the Councels of the Canons and of other Doctors yea downe so low as to the very Breviaries and Missals many matters recorded and registred in favour of Layick Princes have beene blotted and still are scraped out of the ancient Rolls and all to make experiment if after long travaile and sore labour that huge mountaine of opinion de illimitatâ Potestate Pontificis in Temporalibus touching the unboundable power of the Pope in Temporals might be brought forth reared up and established in the Church of God Conferre the Bookes printed in 30. and 50. with Bookes printed in these daies as well the Bookes of