be short the same Father when he saith In fide liberum suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus God hath reserued to man in faith a will free and in his owne power What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Hilar. in psal 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard for when the one saith Est à nobis cum oramus exordium The beginning is from our selues when we pray IdeÌ„ in psal 2. Againe Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence And againe Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe that when it beginneth God would giue increase And the other Epiph. heres 16. Possumus peccare non peccare It is in our power to sinne and not to sinne And againe Circa hominem est bona operari aut malas res appetere It it in mans power to doe good or to desire euill things I see no inckling of any grace but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings but this I may say vnder benedicite that such sayings as these were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie August contra Iulianum Pelag lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur saith Austine the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection before they were combred with Pelagianisme The Dialogue Sectio XXI The doctrine of the keyes AS touching this point of doctrine the church of Rome doth teach none a But by your leaue you are deceiued other thing then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes where hee saith vnto S. Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shal be loosed in heauen and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell where he saith to all his disciples Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne they are retayned so that you see the literall sense is for vs and the question betweene vs is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes you b VVe doe so for the keyes of discipline are giuen Matth. 18.18 do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned to be the preaching of the word of God whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers and we doe say that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c He knowes to whom so doth not your popish priest whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme and in the d VVe know no such sacrament this must goe among other your forgeries sacrament of penance to make man an instrument vnto whom wee doe attribute no more as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the one sacrament then you doe vnto water in the other man who cannot see the heart giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite but God who seeth the heart e And would giue it though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged giueth remission by the ministery of man to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs. Now forasmuch as the literall sense being wholy for vs the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation let vs compare together your interpretation and ours that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true f VVe build our faith vpoÌ„ no mans opinion old or yong doe you as best beseemes your pâ—ofession you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine and wee vpon the authoritie of the g Here is a goodly vaunt if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes this fellow would doe well inough ancient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remayning euen to this day To conclude for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation thus I doe argue against it If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors as I thinke you will not deny it then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors because h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word a learned lay man who is none of the disciples successors may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret and open and shut the kingdome of heauen as well as an i VVe allow no such ministers ignorant and vnlearned minister Other doctrine then this as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes the church of Rome teacheth not sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance temporall penance is inioyned we doe hold that the k Who gaue that power to the Pope I am sure it is more then euer Peter had or practised or bequeathed to his successors this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn Pope hath power to release alter or mittigate the same eyther in the life of the partie or if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance to pardon the same after his death For your ful satisfaction herein I l And I you to the answere wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen. The Answere THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand Math 16.19 Iohn 20.23 Bellar. de pontif and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine the first place out of Matthew doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper I will giue the
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus
and a surplussage to be bestowed vpon others which you terme workes of supererrogation your doctrine of free-will whereby you doe attribute vnto man an absolute power to doe all good workes and thereby to merite heauen And your doctrine of the keys whereby you doe attribute to the Pope and his Priests power to forgiue the sinnes both of the quicke and dead an easie way to heauen for such as haue money and are disposed so to dispose it is not this doctrine as contrarie to the word of God as light vnto darkenesse Pap. I will answere you herein as briefely as I can desiring you first to a VVhich you seeme not to vnderstand your selfe vnderstand rightly the doctrine of the Church of Rome in these points and then to iudge indifferently First therefore concerning iustification by workes we doe hold with Dauid that the iust man offendeth b Then must hee doe seuen good workes else can he not bee iustified by workes 7. * Pr. 24 16. It is Salomon not Dauid nor doth Salomon say seuen times a day that is no addition to the text times a day we doe acknowledge also the death of Christ to be sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world we doe confesse that euery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue and that our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth yet we doe hold therewithall that our good workes such as they are being clensed in the bloud of Christ are both c They may be acceptable but meritorious they cannot be acceptable vnto God and meritorious which we doe ground vpon the promise of our Sauiour Christ where he saith he that giueth to one of these little ones a cup of cold water shall not want his d VVhat reward temporall or eternall or what reward grace goeth before and draweth vs vnto good workes our will consenteth and worketh together with the grace of God so that as S. Austine saith Tractat. 3. primi cap. Iohannis God crowneth his owne gifts in vs and giueth vs grace for grace this is our Doctrine of Iustification by workes wherein we doe e Then nothing that is good in man can merite ascribe whatsoeuer is good in man vnto God as vnto the Fountaine attributing nothing vnto our selues f This tale will hardly agree within it selfe but the libertie of our will whereby to apprehend the grace of God offered vnto vs which frée will also we doe acknowledge to be the gift of God Concerning the merits of dead Saints we doe hold that as God doth may times spare the wicked for the righteous that are liuing among them and shewe mercie vnto thousands in them that loue him and kéepe his commaundements euen so he doth many times spare the liuing for the righteous sake that are departed hence g You are deceiued it doth not appeare there as appeareth in the 2. of the Kings Cap. 13. Where you shall find that the Children of Israell were deliuered from the hand of King Aram for Abraham Isaak and Iacobs sake whereby h You must prooue it better before I can see it you sée that the merits of dead Saints are auaileable vnto the liuing whereupon we may conclude further that if the children of Israel were spared for Abrahams sake who was dead that it was lawfull for the Iewes to pray vnto God that he would deliuer them i That is for the couenant sake made with Abrahā which being graunted you are at a stop for Abrahams sake which being graunted why is it not as lawfull for Christians to pray vnto God to be mercifull vnto their sinnes for Saint Peter and Saint Pauls sake This Doctrine was beléeued and practised in the Church in Saint Austines time as appeareth Can. 40. Meditationum where he prayeth to be deliuered from all euill by the praiers of the Patriarkes by the merits of the Prophets c. And more than this the Church of Rome doth not attribute vnto the merits of Saints The Answere HEere our Protestant layeth three capitall errours to the charge of the Church of Rome First iustification by our owne workes and the merites of dead Saints Secondly free-will to merite heauen Thirdly forgiuing sinnes by the power of the keys Mar. 2 7 Luk. 5 21. which the Scribes and Pharisies as blind as they were knew and professed to be blasphemous herein I will answere you saith our Papist as briefely as I can yea but when shall wee haue your briefe answere Marry first I must desire you saith he to vnderstand rightly the doctrine of Rome in these points Well but will you then be so good as answere vs as briefely as you can Yes marrie will I for I will say nothing at all and that 's as briefe an answere as can be deuised Thus this mans pleasure is to delude vs with expectation of an answere which hee God wote is not able to afford vs and therefore we must be content with we hold and we confesse and what 's that thinke you Marry the iust man offendeth dayly the death of Christ is sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world and our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth which is sufficient to perswade any man that is not contentious that we are not iustified by our workes for that which is sufficient needeth not to be pieced and patched with a polluted clowt of our righteousnesse yea but our workes iustifie not so long as they bee polluted but after they are clensed in the blood of Christ and so they are both acceptable and meritorious Alas man that 's not the question whether they be acceptable and meritorious but whether they iustifie and the filly fellow himselfe telling vs that our workes are clensed in the blood of Christ tels vs withall that we are iustified not by our workes Act. 15 9 Mar. 7 21. that want clensing but by faith in the blood of Christ which clenseth our works and makes them acceptable howbeit all the world together in a heape will neuer be able to proue that works polluted with an arrogant conceit or intention of iustifying can bee possibly clensed in the blood of Christ his blood can no way else clense that which euacuateth his crosse and passion but by taking it away quite and reforming the proud conceits of such heretickes And touching meritoriousnesse the verie name is odious to the seruants of God Paul saith 1. Cor. 4 4. Luk. 17 10. I know nothing by my selfe yet am I not thereby iustified and our Sauiour hath taught vs to say wee are vnprofitable seruants and haue done that which our dutie bound vs vnto when wee haue done all that is commaunded but what should I labour to take away merites which this man himselfe groundeth vppon the promise of Christ Genes 15 6. Ro. 4 3 9 13. Galat. 3.18 22 c. I hope the promise of Christ was free and must be layd hold vpon by faith not workes as Abraham did for
I argue saith he to the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation how I pray you marry you shall heare if Christ giue authoritie of building and loosing onely to his disciples and their successors then cannot preaching be that building and loosing why so man because a learned lay man may bind and loose in that sense as well as an ignorant and vnlearned minister what is this I heare may a lay man preach the word or any ignorant and vnlearned minister either we allow no such blind preachers as you doe Priests Rom. 10 15. Hebr. 5 4. and Paul excludeth the laity from preaching when he saith how shall they preach except they be sent And againe no man taketh honour vnto himselfe but he that is called of God as was Aaron but marke this arguing a little better preaching forsooth cannot be binding and loosing because a learned lay man is able to preach and may not a learned lay man bind and loose too as formally as your popish Priests you will say no because he is not authorised so to doe by the Church and I say againe that he hath as good right to bind and loose as to preach the Gospel and therefore our papist must looke out some new premises if euer hee looke to haue good of his conclusion Harding one of the captaines of his hoste saith that if remitting sinnes consist in pronouncing and denouncing of the Gospel euery lay man yea women Cont. Apolog. Cap. 6. Diuis 2. yea yong boyes girles may assoile sinners yea euery man may assoile himselfe but these fellowes neuer looke at the order of their owne Synagogue where an old wife or a young girle is authorised to baptize and so consequently to remit sinnes the Church of Rome oftentimes rolleth vp the power of the keyes in a bull of lead and sends it abroad to seeke his fortune by a lay pardoner yet make they no doubt but remission of sinnes is annexed vnto it but if we say as Christ saith Math. 23 13. Luk. 11.52 woe be to them that take away the key of knowledge and so shut vp the kingdome of heauen that they that would enter cannot come in this forsooth must needes bee farre fetched and the litterall sense will not beare it But what should a man spend his leasure with such vntoward and insensible triflers that will needs authorise the Pope to pardon the soules of the dead for not performing bodily penance we hold saith he that the Pope hath power to release alter or mitigate temporall penance both in the life time of the partie and also after his death if any of his penance be vnperformed and so our soules must fast bread and water they must repent in sackecloth and ashes they must whippe themselues like Iesuits and shed teares and wring their hands and lie vpon the cold ground and goe barefoot and barelegd and such like if it please not the Popes holinesse to release them but by your Popes leaue I had rather beleeue the voice of God from heauen that tels me that such as die in the Lord are blessed and rest from their labours at the least wise they must needs rest from corporall pennance Cardinall Allens learned discourse is answered long agoe and the answere hath meate drinke and lodging among you without contradiction but let Allen and all his fellow Cardinals say what they can yet this I am sure off the Pope can haue no power ouer any of the dead but onely Gods chosen for reprobates are beyond his reach Rom 8.33.38 39. of the chosen thus saith Saint Paul who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods chosen it is God that iustifieth who shall condemne and a little after I am perswaded saith he that neither death nor life nor Angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature can separate vs from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord. But to let this passe if it be demanded what cause the Pope hath to pardon that which the dead cannot bee charged withall what will or can any papist possibly answere he that is charged with foure or fiue or two yeeres penance or lesse if he be preuented by vntimely death must either be discharged or else be punished for not doing that he cannot do which himselfe a while a goe thought to be absurd if it bee sayd that in this case God punisheth not for omission of penance but for the sinne for which penance was inioyned Mar. 2.7 Luk. 5.21 and not done then the Pope must be sayd either to forgiue that which cannot be required and that 's folly or else the sinne which remained vnsatisfied and that 's blasphemie Yet notwithstanding this blasphemie is rise among papists Contr. Apol. cap. 6. diuis 2. Math. 9.2.6 Luk. 7.48 howsoeuer this fellow heere would faine hide it as the sonne of man saith Harding remitted sinnes to him that was sicke of the Palsie to Marie Magdalen euen so he hath transferred the same power vnto Priests and againe sinnes are released by the power of the keyes in the Sacrament of penaunce to the benefit of them that after baptisme be relapsed and fallen into sinne againe of which power Apol. cap. 6. diuis 1. De author eccles concil supr contr scriptur no Christian doubteth vnlesse he be a Nouatian hereticke And againe the Nouatians were condemned by the Church because they denied that Priests in the Church had authoritie to remit sinnes and so denied the Sacrament of penance Cardinall Cusan Haec ligandi soluendi potestas non minor est in ecclesia quà m in Christo This power of binding and loosing is no lesse in the Church than in Christ Your owne Cardinall a In his Booke of Priesthood Allen saith that the Pope forgiueth sinnes properly And Pope Iulius Iulius Concil tom 1. de primat Rom. eccles Habet sacrosancta Romana ecclesia potestatem singulari sibi priuiligio concessam aperire claudere ianuas regni caelestis quibus voluerit The holy Church of Rome hath by a speciall prerogatiue power graunted vnto it to open and shut the gates of the kingdome of heauen to and against whom it will Wherefore if the case be so plaine as this papist seemes to make it why doe they not make vs a new expurgatorie Index that may blot out these and many moe such sawcie seazings vpon the Lords owne peculiar out of their bookes No no howsoeuer they face out the matter yet are they the sonnes and heires of those priests that Ierome speakes off In Math. cap. 16. who thought they had power to absolue the wicked and condemne the innocent and were woont to say euen in Saint Austines time Nos sanctificamus immundos August de fide oper ca. 14 nos iustificamus impios nos petimus nos impetramus Wee sanctifie the vncleane we iustifie
off the forepart of Ambroses testimony which speakes of substance and merite and euill doctrine and alledgeth onely these last words Cum Paulus dicit sic tamen quasi per ignem ostendit quidem illum saluum futurum sed poenas ignis passurum vt per ignem purgatus fiat saluus non sicut perfidi aeterno igne in perpetuum torqueatur When Paul saith yet so as it were by fire he sheweth indeed that he shal be saued but shall suffer the paynes of fire that being purged by fire he may be saued and not tormented perpetually in euerlasting fire as the obstinate c. Wherefore I like your popish fellowes simplicitie a great deale better who cites Ambrose by whole sale substance accident merite euill doctrine and all for though in so doing he haue lesse wit then Bellarmine yet I will beare him witnesse he hath more honesty but to wind vp all in a word if you be desirous to know Ambroses meaning I thinke you may easily picke it out of these words of S. Austine De ciuit Dei lib. 21. cap. 13. Nos etiam in hac quidē mortali vita esse quasdam paenas purgatorias confitemur Wee also confesse that there are in this mortall life certaine purgatory paynes The Dialogue Sectio XIII GRegorius Magnus The a The trueth giueth you no such thing to vnderstand looke the answere truth hath sayd if any man shall blaspheme the holy Ghost he shall not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in this world and some in the world to come for proofe whereof he vseth also the place b Hee saith it may be vnderstood de igne tribulationis in hac vita of Saint Paul before cited by Saint Austine and Saint Ambrose to the same effect Dialog lib. 4. cap. 39. The Answere POpe Gregorie is heere brought in with his great title to fray vs and yet God wote hee pleads but simply for Purgatorie for touching the place of Saint Paul thus hee writes Quamuis hoc de igne tribulationis in hac vita nobis adhibitae possit intelligi tamen si quis hoc de igne futurae purgationis accipiat c. Although this may be vnderstood of the fire of tribulation which wee feele in this life yet if any take it of the purgation of fire to come c. As if hee should say though I be of opinion that Paul speakes of the fire of affliction whereby God examineth his children in this life yet if any take it otherwise I will not stand against it this is but a silly proofe and touching the other place of Saint Matthew out of which hee concludeth that some sins are forgiuen in this world and some in the world to come Cap. 12.32 his conclusion is cleane contrarie to all Logicke for no reason will lead vs to reason thus this one sinne is not forgiuen Ergo some sins are forgiuē in the world to come this is a plain Non sequitur and so saith Bellarmine De purg lib. 1 cap. 4. Non sequitur secundum regulas dialecticorum It followeth not according to the rules of Logicke but will you know now how it followeth then hearken what the Iesuite saith further Sequitur secundum regulam prudentiae It followeth according to the rule of wisedome So you see howe it followeth and how it followeth not it followeth by the rule of wit it followeth not by the rules of Logicke belike Wit is a Papist and Logicke a Protestant but consider I beseech you how farre this Popish wit would goe if it might hee suffered Dominus ineptissimè loquitur saith Bellarmine si in futuro saeculo nullum peccatum remittitur The Lord speaketh most foolishly if no sinne be forgiuen in the world to come See how this sawcie Iesuite thinks it not inough to say Dominus non loquitur secundum regulam prudentiae c. The Lord speakes not according to the rule of wit which hath some little shew of modestie but Dominus ineptissimè loquitur c. The Lord speakes most foolishly if his Iesuiticall conceit of remitting sinnes in another world be not admitted this is the desperatenesse of Popish Diuinitie but tell mee I beseech you is not the speech still alike foolish if no great sinnes be remitted in the world to come yes verily for thus must it be conceiued the great sinne against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen neither there where great sinnes are forgiuen that is in this world nor there where no great sinnes are forgiuen that is in the world to come Is not this speech thinke you as farre from Bellarmines regula prudentiae rule of wit as the other yet is it propounded according to the Popish conceit for as wee thinke no sinne so they think no great sin is remitted in seculo futuro in the world to come Gregory in this very Dialogue saith Dial. lib. 4. ca. 39. Serm. 41. that peccata maiora greater sinnes be tunciam insolubilia be impardonable and counterfeit Austine saith as much in his sermons De Sanctis Now then whereas the Pope thinkes that our Sauiour in Mathew giueth vs to vnderstand that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in the world to come let him tell vs what sinnes those be great or small great sinnes be tunc iam irremissibile as he saith himselfe and if he meane small sinnes then is our Sauiours speech as farre out of square as if a man should say This great heape of corne cannot bee contained neither in this bushell nor in a fleeting dish But why should the speech of Christ bee most foolish if no sinne at all be remitted in the world to come might not our Sauiour speake so by exaggeration that the speech might the better pierce the vncircumcised hearts and eares of the Pharises No saith the Iesuite Exaggeratio non debet esse inepta qualis est cum fit partitio vni membro nihil respondet An exaggeration ought not to bee foolish as for example when a partition is made and nothing agreeth to one of the parts Is this the folly hee talkes of why it is easie to see that not to remit the sin against the holy Ghost is answerable alike both to this world and the world to come which bee the members of our Sauiours partition for that great sin is neuer remitted neither in the one nor the other 1. Cor. 13.1 Galat. 1.8 Apoc. 5.3 yet notwithstanding we haue examples of such foolish partitions in the word of God Paul saith Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels whereas Angels haue no tongues to speake And in another place though we or an Angell from heauen speake otherwise c. Yet Angels be no Preachers so likewise the spirite of God saith No man is able to open read or looke vpon the Booke neither in heauen nor in earth nor vnder the earth yet
for first as not to forgiue is as much to say as to punish so to forgiue is as much to say as not to punish in which sence there is forgiuenes in the world to come as well as in this world Secondly Saint Peter saith Act. 3.19 Amend you liues and turne that your sinnes may be done away when the time of refreshing shall come c. that is at the second comming of Christ to restore all thinges where wee learne that our sinnes are compleatly forgiuen till death sinne and hell be fully vanquished and discharged at the last day De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 9. Lastly Bellarmine saith that Mali habitus in vita contracti are taken away per primum actum contrarium animae separatae that is to say a habite of ill doing which grew a long time by many bad actions De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 2. 3. is cleane purged in a moment by one good deede and yet hee holds stiffely against Luther that soules departed can neither mereri nor demereri howbeit here we finde a taking away or forgiuenesse of sinnes in another world without scorching in purgatory by the good deedes of soules departed Now whether these deedes be merita or demerita or what other name it will please him to allow them some of his Popish friends may doe well to resolue vs. The Dialogue Sectio XIIII THus a You speake of more than you haue done or can doe haue I for proofe of this point of Catholicke Doctrine produced against you all the meanes that euer were deuised to conuince an heresie and on the other side you are put to all the shifts that euer hereticke deuised for defence of Heresie from the b The Doctors haue no authoritie or dominion ouer our faith authoritie of Doctors and Fathers and the continuall practise of the vniuersall Church you must appeale vnto Scriptures from Scriptures c VVe make no such appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of d VVe looke not to be saued by Ambrose Aug. and Gregories faith but by our owne Abak Cap. 2.4 Ambrose Austine and Gregorie the Great to the interpretation and deuise of your owne braine as vnto the supreame and onely sufficient Iudge of all controuersies So that I must either discontinue my suit or put the matter to comprimise and make your selfe sole arbitrator which if I should doe and could tell how to propound the case vnto you in such couert maner as the Prophet Nathan did to Dauid I would not doubt but to drawe from you the like sentence as Dauid pronounced against himselfe as for example if I should put your owne case vnto you thus masked and disguised in the habit of a case in law Iohn a Stile seazed of the Manor of Dale wherof he and his Auncestors haue béen quietly possessed time out of minde hath to shew for proofe of his title a record of the Tower dated the first of H. 1. whereby it appeareth that the Conquerour gaue this Land to one of his Auncestors to the same effect he hath also another like record of H. 2. and another of H. 3. Iohn a Noke claymeth an interest in this Land and alleageth for maintenance of his title thereunto that notwithstanding the sayd possession and records the Conqueror did giue no such Mannor vnto the Auncestors of Iohn a Stile and that without a Charter from the Conquerour to be shewed to that effect his interest is neuer the better A faire Charter is produced and acknowledged by the Plaintiffe but he desireth that the true and right interpretation of the words may be taken the interpretation concerning the true meaning and sense of the words deliuered by the reuerend Iudges in a like case long before this controuersie grew is shewed which ouer-ruleth the matter plainely with the Defendant The Plaintiffe replyeth that the Iudges like men did erre in their opinion and that himselfe and some other that claime like interest in the land can giue the right interpretation of the words whereunto he will referre the whole triall of his cause I pray you either tell me who is like to haue best interest to this land or giue mée an d Ye shall haue instaÌ„ces inow looke the answere instance where the cases doe differ The Testimonies of Epiphanius Chrysostome Austine Ambrose who e They affirme it not but you father it vpon them affirme that praier for the dead was a tradition of the Apostles are the records of the Tower the Scriptures the Charter of the Conqueror the interpretation of the sayd Doctors of the place of Saint Paul Cor. 3. the opinion of the Iudges deliuered for the explication of the true sense and meaning of the words of the Charter This case being agréed by our Counsell let it bée mooued at the Checker barre and let my f This should haue been omitted in coÌ„mon discretioÌ„ Lord chéefe Barons opinion therein be a finall end of the controuersie betwéen vs. The Answere HEre our popish Diuine will needs bee a Lawyer and therefore he puts cases against vs but his deuises and producements are too homely to controll a truth and to settle a mans faith and conscience We haue seen what those Fathers and Doctors say and we haue shewed him how vnable they are to beare the burden hee layeth vpon them and therfore he had need to deale couertly by masking and disguising if euer he looke to enioy his Mannor of Dale Howbeit the breake-necke of all is this the cases differ as may bee shewed by many instances First you haue not had quiet possession time out of minde for it was disturbed by Aerius and so along euen to the daies of Luther as Bellarmine confesseth in his Treatise of Purgatorie Secondly the Greeke Church was neuer seased of this mannor Vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est à Graecis creditum Lib. 1. cap. 2. De haeres libr. 8. ca. 1. Euen till this day Purgatorie is not beleeued by the Grecians saith Alphonsus and so saith Roffensis in Polidore de inuentoribus rerum Thirdly the conqueror neuer gaue it by charter but it was taken rather from the paraclete of Mountanus as I shewed before out of Tertullian and so defended afterward by colour of charter Fourthly your Iohn a Stile hath no sufficient record to shew that prayer for the dead is a Tradition of the Apostles Fiftly if that record could be found and were graunted yet that which he claimeth by Charter from the Conquerour will not follow Lib. de fide etâ—per cap. 13. 16. ad Dulcit quaest 1. Esa 53.5 Rom. 8.1 Apoc. 14.13 Eccles 9.6 as hath bene seene alreadie Sixtly the Charter which is shewed is not faire but doubtfull and full of difficulties so saith Austine one of your own iudges Seuenthly there is a fairer Charter to the contrary in Esay Paul and Saint Iohn and Salomon saith plainely that the dead haue no part in the