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A55892 The principles of a people stiling themselves Philadelphians discovered in their nicest points and matters; accurately handled, shewing their rise, continuance, and tenents in doctrin and manner of proceeding, &c. Also a curious discourse between an English dissenter and French Protestant, by way of dialogue, in vindication of the Church of England against novelties in religion. Lafite, Daniel. Friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant. 1697 (1697) Wing P3494A; ESTC R219027 36,218 131

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never have produc'd this Argument to condemn the practice of our Church True it is that it was the custome of the Jews to sing by turns and answer one another but you never observed that this was a privilege granted to the Priests and Levites onely now this Argument of yours plainly justifies the order of our Church for if the Priests and Levites under the Old Law had the Prerogative of bearing a part in offering up the publick Prayers and Praises none can deny but that Christians both Ministers and People have the same if not a greater privilege forasmuch as every true Christian is a Priest and that of a higher order than those under the Old Law for if we will believe St. Peter 1 Ep. chap. 2. vers 9. We are a chosen Generation a royal Priesthood and John Revel 1.6 declares that Jesus Christ has made us Kings and Priests unto God E. D. I perceive then you take it to be a great honour or privilege for Christians to have leave to answer their Ministers and to have a share with them in repeating the publick Prayers F. P. I do so and have great reason for it too E. D. I know well that you Church-men both Ministers and People are very ambitious of honour but this is not the thing we must look for especially in our Prayers but rather edification and benefit now what benefit can you propound to your self from this answering of your Minister and pronouncing some part of the publick Prayers F. P. The benefit which thereby accrews to us is very considerable for by this means we do not onely express our full consent to all the Minister's Prayers without which we cannot reasonably expect any advantage from them but besides by this method of our Church we captivate the Peoples attention restrain their vain and rambling thoughts and oblige them to be attentive to what the Minister saith that they may be ready to return the proper Responsals Whereas when the People bear no share in the Divine Service and have no part to act in it they are more at leisure to entertain vain and frivolous fancies and too too often profane and lascivious thoughts come in flocks to devour their Sacrifice and to tell you my mind plainly I take it that the neglect of these Responsals is the true cause of so much inadvertency lazy postures and drowziness as now commonly discover themselves in those who frequent the House of God and appear in his presence whom the holy Angels adore with veiled faces which as it is a dishonour to God and a discouragement to the Minister so it is of great prejudice to their own Souls Now to put the question to your self you cannot deny me but that way of Praying which most engageth our attention is the best and therefore ought to be preferred before any other and it is evident beyond dispute that that way of Praying where the People bear a part and answer in their course is the most proper to make them attentive and heedfull to the Work they are about and therefore I leave you to judge how commendable the Practice of our Church is in this regard E. D. We shall by and by have a further opportunity of speaking to this particular wherefore you may now proceed if you please F. P. After the short Prayers and Responsals now mentioned follows the Doxology Glory be to the Father and to the Son c. which is both a sound Form of praising and glorifying the eternal and tri-une God Father Son and Holy Ghost and a short Creed or Confession of our Faith concerning the Trinity in Unity And if you demand of me why it is placed here in the close of the Penitential part of our Prayers I answer Because having before confessed our Sins and humbly entreated mercy and remission for them and being now in full hope that our mercifull Father has graciously heard and granted our requests we immediately change our Prayers into Praises and our Supplications into Thanksgivings and with transports of Joy and Gratitude we sound forth our Glory be to the Father for it is he who pardons our Sins and to the Son because 't is for his sake they are pardoned and to the Holy Ghost who alone assures us thereof And the Minister afterwards as if this were not enough because in the Gloria Patri we more particularly worship the Trinity in Unity and not the Unity in Trinity calls upon the People again to adore the Unity saying Praise ye the Lord to which the People answer The Lord's Name be praised which words contain the Christian Hallelujahs or Songs of praise and triumph for the absolution and remission of their Sins or else if you will you may take them for a Preface or Entrance to the Reading of the Psalms E. D. You may take them for what you please as for my part I don't concern my self about them and therefore you may go on F. P. In the Morning Service the Psalms are ushered in with the Venite O come let us sing unto the Lord c. as being an Exhortatory Psalm whereby we continue mutually to invite and encourage each other worthily to adore and worship the Eternal God And that this Psalm is very well placed here appears first Because by it we are informed what we are to doe and secondly how we ought to behave our selves in the performance of the succeeding Offices or Duties The former of these viz. what we are to doe we have in these words Sing unto the Lord Come before his presence Serve and worship him and lastly Hear his Voice or his most Holy Word The latter How we are to perform these Duties is thus express'd We are to sing unto the Lord heartily rejoicing in the strength of our salvation to come before his presence with thanksgiving with a gratefull sense and humble acknowledgment of all his Benefits serve and worship him with all becoming Reverence and Veneration falling down on our faces and kneeling before the Lord our Maker not hardning our hearts when we hear his voice but receiving it with Faith and Obedience And thus we proceed to the Psalms appointed for the day the Church having ordered them to be read over once every Month. E. D. Pray tell me the reason why they are appointed to be read oftner than any other part of Holy Scripture F. P. Because they are most accommodated for Prayer and Devotion and consequently of a more continual use than any other part of God's Word The ignorant will find here profitable instruction and information the wicked earnest exhortations and severe warnings the poor and afflicted will meet with su-table Prayers and Petitions to beg the good things they want as well as to deprecate the evils they groan under and the rich and prosperous will be furnish'd with Thanksgivings and joyfull Songs of Praise Indeed the whole contexture of them shews them to be fitted and suited to all persons in all circumstances
it will never be a lawfull one for to speak freely and without mincing the matter I am of opinion that though it may be lawfull to use some Form of Prayer yet it is altogether unlawfull to use that Form which is now in vogue amongst you F. P. Then I find you are not altogether irreconcilable to the Lawfulness of Praying by Forms but you are not satisfied with the Forms we use I shall be glad to hear the Grounds of your dissatisfaction as hoping by this means to have an opportunity offer'd me to enlarge my self more in the Praise of our Common-prayer than hitherto I have had occasion to do E. D. I know the humour of French-men is to be complaisant and complimental and so very probably you design in comliment to the Church of England to fall down to the Common-prayer the great Idol of the English Clergy as you have already express'd your great Respects for their dull and prophane Priests F. P. I beg of you sir let us discourse without Prejudice or Passion and be so kind as to tell me calmly and friendly what Objections you have against our Common-prayer-book in particular E. D. Before I give you the Particular Objections I have against the Common-prayer-book I shall premise this General Observation That your Common-prayer is so bad that there is nothing good in it no nor any thing that is so much as tolerable F. P. How strangely you and I differ in Opinion As for my part I really think there is nothing in it but what is very good E. D. If you can prove that as I desire you would Eris mihi magnus Apollo for indeed you will do more than all your Clergy-men that ever I discours'd with and more than all the Books that treat of this Subject have been able to do F. P. If the case be so indeed I should be loath to undertake the task For if none of our Clergy that you have discours'd with nor any of those excellent Books written in the Defence of our Liturgy have been able to convince you of the goodness and usefulness thereof it would be folly for me to attempt it for I am very sensible that my Parts and Abilities are far below any one of our Clergy that you have had to deal with and to speak the truth 't is from them and their Writings I have acquired the best part of that little learning and insight into these things that I have E. D. I hope you are as modest a Man as your discourse would import besides being a French Protestant you as such can have neither publick nor private Reason to bear any ill-will to our Party wherefore I look upon you as an unbiass'd Person without Prejudice or Partiality and consequently fit to be discours'd with about the matter in question between us And indeed all this makes me the more desirous to hear the Arguments you can produce for proving your Assertion That there is nothing in the Common-prayer-book but what is very good F. P. I thought all this while that you intended to propound your Objections against the Common-prayer and that my onely business would have been to Answer them E. D. I suppose we may do both these things at once for if you please to tell me what you find so extraordinary good in the Common-prayer I shall also on my part declare what I dislike in it F. P. Be it so And to the end we may proceed with some order let us cursorily reade over the Common-prayer-book which I have here with me E. D. This indeed will be a good way to enable us to judge the better concerning it and therefore I am very free to run it over with you onely must desire you not to take it ill if now and then I interrupt you with my Objections against any part of it F. P. What you desire is contain'd in our agreement for according to it I am to tell you what I approve of in our Liturgy and you are to tell me what you dislike in it by propounding your Objections against it E. D. Very well and in so doing we shall finely Anatomize these Relicks of Popery But it is your turn to begin F. P. The first thing I meet with in our Common-prayer-book are some Sentences of the Holy Scriptures of which the Minister is to reade one or more before he proceeds to the Prayers or Devotions which seems to me to be very proper and usefull for certainly we can never better begin God's Service than with his own Words Next follows an Exhortation wherein is represented to the People the End of their present assembling or meeting together which is as the Exhortation expresseth it To confess their Sins to render Thanks to God to set forth his Praise and to ask those things that be necessary either for Soul or Body and towards the end thereof we are informed and directed how to perform these holy and bounden Duties viz. sincerely and reverently with a pure heart and humble voice which caution is very necessary if we consider how prone Men are without any due preparation of themselves to rush into the presence of the great God who is a consuming fire and before whom they ought to appear with the most reverential awe and trembling as likewise how apt we are to utter any thing before him without considering that he is in Heaven and we on Earth and how negligent we generally are in disposing and qualifying our selves for the acceptable performance of the Sacred Duties of our Religious Worship E. D. So far all is pretty tolerable but by and by we shall meet with a great deal of stuff F. P. Not to insist now upon your plain contradicting of your self for whereas but just now you positively asserted that there was nothing so much as tolerable in our Liturgy you now plainly confess the contrary I shall onely desire you when we come to those places where your great deal of stuff lies that you would stop me for I shall be glad to hear the Objections you have against any part of it and in the mean time I proceed to speak of the Confession which is the next thing that occurs in our Liturgy The Minister and People having been thus stirr'd up by the foregoing Exhortation to compose their Thoughts and prepare their Hearts for a due offering up of their Morning or Evening Sacrifice the next thing they do is to fall down on their knees confessing in a solemn and humble manner their Sins unto Almighty God earnestly imploring his Grace and Mercy for the Pardon of them And this according to my apprehension is very proper and necessary in our approaches to God for since it is our Sins that separate between God and us and hide his face from us we can do no better than in the first place to beg of our most mercifull Father the Remission of them that he may utterly efface them and put them out of the way of