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A09100 A defence of the censure, gyuen vpon tvvo bookes of william Charke and Meredith Hanmer mynysters, whiche they wrote against M. Edmond Campian preest, of the Societie of Iesus, and against his offer of disputation Taken in hand since the deathe of the sayd M. Campian, and broken of agayne before it could be ended, vpon the causes sett downe in an epistle to M. Charke in the begyninge. Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610.; Charke, William, d. 1617. Replie to a censure written against the two answers to a Jesuites seditious pamphlet. 1582 (1582) STC 19401; ESTC S114152 168,574 222

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truelie manslaughter is vvicked and prohibited by god● lavve And againe manslaughter is good and commended by gods lavve for bothe these are verified in some of her braunches So in respect of diuerse braunches of concupiscence S. Augustin might saye concupiscence is synne the punishement of synne and the cause of synne But yet this is not true in euerie particular braunche of concupifcence and namelie of that braunche we now dispute of that is of concupiscence in the regenerat without consent as a man can not saye that euerye manslaughter is good nor that euerie manslaughter is euill And the cause why S. Augustin vsed this sentence against Iulian was for that Iulian dyd prayse concupiscence as a thing commendable for that it was a punishement of God sor sinne But S Augustin refuteth that sheweing that concupiscence in generall is not onelie a punishement for synne but sometimes also and in some ●ē it is sinne it selfe the cause of sinne thersore an euill thinge though no sinne without consent For so he sayeth against the same Iulian. Quantum ad nos attinet sine peccato sen per essemus donec sanaretur hoc malū si ei n●nquam consentiremus ad malum sed in quibus ab illo rebellame e●si non lethaliter sed venialiter tamen vincimur in hiis contrahimus vnde quotidie dicamus Dimitte nobis debita nostra ● As for vs that are baptized we might be allwayes without sinne vntill that day when this euill cōcupiscēce shall be healed that is in heauē yf we wolde not consent vnto yt to euill But in these things wherein we are ouercome by this rebelliouse concupiscence veniallie at least though not mortallie by these I saye we geather matter daylie to saye forgyue vs our trespasses Heere Loe S. Augustin proueth concupiscence to be euill against the pelagian yet not to be sinne without consent against the protestant Thyrdlie that accordinge to the mesure or degree of cōsent yeelded it may be ether veniall or mortall sinne against M. Charke a litle before obstinatlie denyeinge this distinction of sinnes And finallie S Augustin doeth not onelie proue this our p●sition purposelye in almoste infinite other places of his woorkes but also in his second booke against Iulian doeth confirme it by the vniforme consent of other fathers of the Churche as of S. Ambrose Nazianzen and others VVhat then shall we say but onelye pittie william Charke whiche fyndeth Augustin the doctor as hard against hym in all pointes as Augustin the monke The woordes of Christ alleaged by you to ouerthrow our position to witt euerie one that shall see a vvoman to lust after her hathe novv committed adulterie vvith her in his hart are truelie sayd of the Censure to be alleaged by you bothe ignorantlie against your selfe Fyrst for that the woorde hart there expressed importeth a consent without whiche nothing defileth a man as may be gathered by Christ his owne woordes in an other place sayeing that the things which defile a man doe procede frō the hart Secondlie for that the woordes import a voluntarie looking vppon vvomen to that ende to be inflamed with lust as bothe the latin muche more the greeke and Syriake textes insinuate and S. Chrisostom interpreteth hom 8. de poenitentia as S. Augustin also expoundeth them sayeinge qui viderit mulierem ad concupiscendam eam id est hoc fine hoc animo attenderit vt eam concupiscat quod est plene consentire libidini He that shall see a woman to lust after her that is shall looke vpon her to this end and with this mynde to lust after her which is in deede fullie to consent vnto the lust Now what replieth Sir william to all this surelie nothing but maketh along idle speake of praedicatum subiectum as pertinent to the matter as charing crosse to byllingsgate And in the end to quite the Lorde as he saythe moste carefullie from synne he alleageth S. Iames sayeing that God tempteth no man but euerie man is tempted dravven and allured by his ovvne concupiscence and then concupiscence vvhen it hathe conceyued bringeth furth synne But what is this against vs Doe we charge God with this sinne of cōcupiscence when we denie it to be sinne at all except onelie when a man consenteth to it or rather doe you charge God withe it when you affirme it to be sinne as it is of nature without consent are we or you they that make God author of sinne is not Caluin condemned of our churche for this impretie a doeth he not holde that God is author of sinne in diuers places of his woorkes b Doeth he not condemne S. Augustin by name for holdinge the contrarie c Doeth not Peter Martyr his scholer holde the same How then talke you of quitting carefullie the Lorde from synne as though he were charged or accused therof by vs what hypocrisie what dissimulation what falshode is this in you Now the place of S. Iames as commonlie all other thinges that yow alleage maketh singularlie against your selfe Heare S. Augustins exposition argument whiche proueth our position out of the same woordes Cum dicit apostolus Iacobus vnusquisque tentatur a concupiscentia sua abstractus illectus deinde concupiscentia cum cònceperit parit peccatum profecto in hiis verbis partus a pariente discernitur Pariens enim est concupiscentia partus peccatum Sed concupiscentia non parit nisi conceperit non concipit nisi illexerit hoc est ad malum perpetrandum obtinuerit volentis assensum VVhen the apostle Iames sayeth euery one is tempted drawen awaye and Intised by his owne concupiscence afterward concupiscence when it hathe conceyued bringeth furthe sinne surelie in these woordes the childe is distinguished from the mother the mother that beareth is concupiscence the childe borne is sinne But concupiscence beareth not except she conceyue and she conceyueth not except she obtaine the consent of hym which is willing to doe euill Now goe M. Charke and acquite your selfe of grosse follie and ignorance whereof you are conuicted which wolde so carefullie quitte the Lorde of that wherewith we neuer meant to charge hym Of the first motions of concupiscence THE CENSVRE Thyrdlie you reporte the Iesuits to saye That the first motiōs of lust are without hurt of sinne Cēs 54. 89. It is moste true and playne as they delyuer it but you by clipping their vvoords make euerie thing to seeme a paradoxe They say the first motions of lust yf they come of naturall instinct only vvithout any cause gyuen by vs are no sinnes so long as vve geue no consen● of hart vnto them And the reason is because it lyeth not in vs they being naturall to prohibit them to come no more than it dothe to prohibit our pulse from beating And therfore seing no sinne can be cōmitted vvithout our vvill consent of har● as I haue shevved before the first motions
repugneth to the lawe of God The vvhich definitiō the Censure of Colen affirmeth uot to be in all respectes perfecte but that diuerse vvordes should be added to the same as for exāple in steade of that he sayeth Sinne is vvhat soeuer c. 2. He should haue sayd Sinne is an action for that there be diuerse things vvhiche repugne against the lavv of God as euill men euill lavves the deuills and the like vvhiche not vvithstanding are not properlie sinnes for that they are not actions 3. Secondlie he s●ould haue sayd not onelie Sinne is an action but Sinne is an humane or reasonable action For yf a mad man a foole or a beaste should committ an acte prohibited by gods lavve as for example kill a mā it vvere properlie no sinne 4. Thirdlie he should haue added voluntarie for yf a man should doe a naughtie acte against his vvill as the virgins vvhiche vvere rauished by violence in the primatiue Churche dyd it vvere not synne Lastlie he s●ould haue added 5. done vvittinglie For although Iacob lay vvith Lya vvhiche vvas not his vvyfe yet because he knevv it not but thought her to be Rachel his vvyfe he sinned not Soe that the perfect definition of sinne is not that vvhiche Monhemius dyd putt dovvne and the protestants folovve but rather that vvhiche the Iesuits together vvith S. Augustin and other learned fathers haue sett dovvne to vvitt Sinne is a humane acte voluntarilie and wittinglie commi●ted against the lawe of God And this to be vnderstoode of actuall sinne properlie THE DEFENCE That these wordes are guilefullie reported out of the Iesuits doctrine maye appeare by this example A learned counsailer hauing discoursed vpon the lawes of our lande and shewed that albeit all breache of publique lawes doeth tende against the Prince and cōmon wealth as in dede it doeth Yet euery suche trāsgression is not treason but some felonie some trespasse some no offence at all being done without malice will or knoulege wolde you not think hym a maliciouse wrangler that should come and frame this odious proposition vpon the others large discourse it is not treason vvhat so euer is against the Prince and common vvealthe For albeit these woords may be verifyed in a good sense as the Censure sayeth of M. Charkes report yet being layd downe barelie without sheweing the occasion and discourse they sownde odiouslie as though what soeuer were done against the Prince and common wealthe were no treason In like sorte deale these heretiques with the Iesuits who doe shew that albeyt euery synne doeth repugne the lawe of God yet euery thing that so repugneth is not equally synne but some veniall some mortall synne and some no synne at all yf it be without will or consent as the first motions of concupiscende are VVherevpon our aduersaries come and frame this odiouse proposition before sett downe to witt it is not synne vvhat soeuer is against the vvord of God without expoundinge how and in what sense it was spoken And to lett you see M. Charks nypping and shufling in this one litle line to make it sownd more odious thā ether kemnitius or Gotvisus frō whome he tooke it doe delyuer the same The Iesuites wordes are reported by them thus the Iesuits say they in their definition of synne do saye Peccatum est non quicquid legi dei repugnat Sed c. Synne is not what soeuer repugneth the lawe of God but c. And then foloweth the rest of the Iesuits definition towched in the Censure And thus is it reported by M. Charks Maisters But he to make it seme more absurde in ignorant mens eares layeth it downe absolutelie thus yt is not sinne vvhat soeuer is against the vvorde of God As thoughe the sentence ended there Also as though it were no parte of a definition Againe he chaungeth the place of the negation whiche in framing of propositions altereth often the sense So for peccatum est non quicquid c. he sayethe non est peccatum quiquid c. And lastely for repugneth the lavve of God he putteth It is against the vvoorde of God And all this to helpe out a litle suspition of absurde doctrine in the Iesuits whiche argueth in hym a dishonest intention thoughe for the doctrine it selfe in the Iesuits meaning I thinke the Censure hathe sufficientlie defended it and what soeuer M. Charke hath therto replied shall now be examined notinge by the waye that M. Charkes common and onelie refuge of credit to saye vve muste eyther absolutelie graunt or absolutelie deny all these propositions fathered on the Iesuites is ridiculous and moste vayne For we admitt so muche of them as ether in woorde or sense the Iesuits euer vttered and the rest eyther coyned falsified wrested or otherwise abused by you we turne home agayne with shame vpon your selues But now to the defence of the Iesuits definition of sinne against whiche M. Charke hathe dyuers impertinent obiections whiche serue to spend tyme but yet they must be answered First then to proue that sinne is no acte he obiecteth that iniustice is a sinne and yet no acte To whiche I answer that iniustice maye betaken for an acte and so properly a sinne as yf a man wolde saye yt was great iniustice to putt to deathe so innocent and learned men as M. Campian was those that dyed with hym heere iniustice signifieth an iniust acte But yf you take iniustice for an habite onelye that is onelie for a procliuitie or facilicie to an iniust acte then you must learne that aswell this as all other euell habits are called by diuines vitia non peccata vices and not sinnes For that an euell habit may be in a man without sinne except by consent to yt he bringe furth an euell acte as S Augustin proueth in the habit or procliuitie to dronkennes contracted before a mans conue●sition and remaining after the same it is no sinne except it bring furthe some acte of dronkennes ethe● in consent or operation And the lyke is to be sayde of all other euyll habites or inclinations whiche may remayne in the mynde without any acte and consequ●●lie without sinne as experience teacheth and as S. Austen also proueth in an other place For in a good man after his conuersion there may remayne euyll habites called vitia as procliuitie to lye to steale to carnall sinne or the lyke and yet are they no sinnes except they bring furthe some acte ether of consent in harte or of operation in worke So that you see how iniustice as it is an habit that is onelye an inclination or procliuitie to doe vniustlie may be in a man withoute sinne For that it is no sinne of it selfe withoute an acte as hathe bene shewed And this point perhappes you learned not before Secondlie you obiect agaynst this first member that the synne of omission is a synne as where Hely was punished for not chastising his children and the watchemen
7. Ver. 12.14 VVeake resonynge Rom. 7. Exo. 20. 2. Cor. 11. Phil. 3. Act. 22. 3 Au. li 1. de nup. cō cup. c. 23. A●b ser. 27. Au. li. 2. de pecca merit c. 27. 28. Orig. in hūc locum Augu li. 3. cont 2. ●p pe●ag c. 6. Ambr. li. 1 de voc gēt ca. 5. Clem. A●e li. pedag c. 6. Clemens Ale exho ad gentes pag. 38. Cap. 53. Aug. li. 1. de nup. c●cu c. 23. Li. 1. de nu co●cup c. 23. 25. Cap. 25. Li. 11. de peccat meri● remiss ca. 4. Great impudencie Rom. 7. ca. 23. li. 1. de nup. concup Hovv S. Paul called concupiscēce synne improperlye Li. 6. c. 11. Li. 5. c. 3. An example Lib. 2. cont Iulian circa finem Math. 6. Veniall mortall sinne Vide Au. li. 1. cont 2. ep pelag c. 13. li. 2. de pecc merit c. 28. S●rm 6. de verb. apost lib. 1. de ciui c. 25 In expos prop. ex ep ad Rom. prop●sitione 17. 45. 47. com ad Gal. c. 5. de pecca orig c. 39. cō 3. in psal 118 alibi Math. 5. Math. 15. Marck 7. PROS TO EPIDVMESAI AVTEN Au. li. 1. de serm domi in monte ca. 23. Iacob 1. v. 14. 15. ● Li. 1. iust 8.17 18. Li. 2. inst ap 4. In com li. reg ca. 2. Aug. li. 6. cont Iul. cap. 5. The third Article Exo. 20. Deut. 30. Li. 1. de nu concup ca. 23. Ecc. 18. Li. 2. cont Iul. circa finem Li. 2. de gra pec orig c. 40. Ep. 200. ad Asell * This kinde of speeche is called implicatio in adiecto Fyrst motions voluntarie sometimes An euidēt example Deceytful auoydinge of similitudes Great● surdities Concupiscēce in vvhat place it is Gal. 5. Rom. 7 The sensatiue parte● of mā more corrupted than the reasonable Rom. 7. Sap. 9. Rom. 7. Vide Au. in psa 145 li. 14. de ciuit c. 19. Necessarie actions of lyfe and sēse corrupted by originall synne De eccles dogm c. 38. Ge. 6. 8. Deut. 6. Matth. 22. Au. de spi. lit c. v● li. 1. de do Christ. c. 2. li. de nat gra 69. li. 2. de pec merit c. 6. Catholikes doe represse lustes an● not the protestants Protestants doctrine Catholique doctrine of lustes Exo. 20. Li. de nup. concup cap. 23. Eccle. 18. Abovvt the number and order of the commaundemētes Deut. 5. Quaest. 71. in exod concione 1. in psa 32. The reasōs vvhy cōcupiscence of the fleshe and concupiscence of temporall goods make tvvo commaundementes 1. Iohn 2. A doubt resolued 1. Ioh. 2. a Li. 3. ant ca. 6. 8. B Li. de decalog c Li. 2. cont haereses ca. 42. a Ho. 8. in Exod. B in ca. 20. Exod. c Li. 6. Strō d in ca. 26. Leuit. e in cap. 6. eph f in ca. 10. Ose. An. qu●st 71. in exo alibi su citat VVhether Catholikes leaue ovvt the second commaundement against Idoles Hovv one generall sinne may belong to tvvo commaundemē●es that is the consent of hart to one the ex●ernall vvoorke to an other Exod. 20. Deut. 30. VVhether all motiōs of lust may be extinguished by mortification VVhether the cōmaundemētes of God be impossible or no. The lavve and commaundemētes are not aboue vs. Aug. li. de nat gra cap. 69. Math. 11. 1. Ioh. 5. Li. de nat gr c. 69 Ser. 191. de tempore All things not expressed in scriptures Things beleeued vvhiche are not in scripture Colos. 4. A simple euasion Payu in orthodox explicat In opere ca tech. Canisii fol. 126. 160.161 162. An euidēt example Luc. 10. Ioh. 14. Math. 18. 1. Tim. 3. The true state of the question Of thinges not expressed in scripture Tvvo natures tvvo vvilles in Christ. Rom 1. 34 Math. 26. Syn. 6. Act. 4. Proceeding of the holy ghost Ioh. 15.26 Ciril in ca. 15. Ioh. Athan. in symb The vnion of the vvoorde Ioh. 1. v. 14 Baptizinge of infantes Ge. 17. 12. C●aud de Sainctes in Apol. aduers Beza Chaunge of the Sabbothe day Apo. 1. 10. Of the knovveinge of scripture Ho. in Luc. Orig. ho. 1. in Luc. Epiph. li. 1. cont heres hebion li. 1. hae 46. Au. li. 28. cont faust cap. 2. The maner hovv God the father begat hys sonne Ioh. 1. 1. Rom. 9. 5. That Chr●st is the sonne of God Protest●̄ts lordes of scriptures to make thē say vvhat they lyst Against the motiues pa. 98. Lege Lutherum cōtra Latomum de Incendiariis Hereticall audacitie a In pr●em lib. de prin b ad praxeam c ep 61. ad pā d in exp simb e ep 81. ad Syr. f ser. 181. de tem g Li. 5. hist. cap. 22. Sozom. li. 7 Ierom. cont Heluid Amb. ep 81. 79. Aug. in Enchir. cap. 34. Col. 4.16 a in c. 4. ad coll b in catalog scrip in ver Paulus c li. 5. contra Marcion d in Catal. haer c. 89. e li. 1. cont haer Obiectiō 2. Tim. 3. Profitable Neces●arie Part of scripture loste 1. Tim. 4. a Com. in hunc locū b ibidem c de morib Eccles. li. 1. cap. 33. Pietie meriteth in all actions 2. Tim. 3. Lu● 21. The true state of the controuersie abovvt the sufficiencie of scripture Epiph in haer 61. Addinge to scripture Deut. ● Non addetis ad verbum c. Deut. 8. Gotuis ca. 1. antith 2. Canis in opere Cate. fol. 162. * Greate iniquitie to adde one veritie to an other or to beleeue tvvo verities together Apoc. 22. ●n exami ●oncil trid ●ag ●01 a Li. 10. de gen ad lit cap. 23. b in c. 6. ep ad Rom. c Ep. 54. ad marcellam d Her 75. e de Eccles. hier cap. 7. f de coronae milit g Li. de spi. S. cap. 27. Against Martiall pag. 170. Ibidem pa. 178. Ibidem pa. 178. Against Bristoes motiues pa. 35 Against D. Allen For prayer 303. Ibidem pa. 362. 363. A provvd question Against Br. motyues pag. 36. Li. de spi. S. cap. 27. Traditions of equall force vvith the vvriten vvoord Li. 1. demō Euang. c. 8. Heresi 61. 1. Cor. 11. 14.15 Hom. 4. in ca. 2. ep ad Thess. 2. Thess. 2. Diuers apostolical traditions in particular S. Austens testimonie for diuers particular traditions The scripture may be vvrested to an euill sense Nu. 21. Ioh. 3. Math. 25. Psal. 18. Pay● Andrad orth expl lib. 2. pag. 104. pag. 102. 103. Shameles dealing of M. Charke Gotuisus in Antithetis pag. 216. A ridiculous euasiō 2. Pet. 3 It is no fault of scripture that heretiques abuse it Rom. 9. In ca. 1. ep ad Gal. In verba ps 10. ecce peccat c. Iren. lib. 1. cont haer cap. 1. Naz. ad Nicob Tertull. de praescrip Lyrin contra haereses Luthers testimonie In postilla conc 2. in dom 8. post trinitatem Vide sixt sent li. 7. biblio Against purg pag. 209. Against M. Campiā pa. 18. The Iesuits most reuerent speeche of holie scripture In prefat ad lectorē ī li. de corruptelis verbi dei pro Io. Ba. Psal. 18. v. 7. 2. Pet. 3. The olde latin trāslation Ierom. ep 102. in fine catalo Augu. ep 10. ad hieron Praefat. in Nouum tes an 1556. AMOMOS TAMAM or TAM Abouvt the trāslation of immaculata An. 1549